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<BODY><XMP>From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 02:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Wed May  1 01:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
References: <20020430.181756.-125169.2.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CCFA34B.6080406@gmx.net>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

<snippage>

>
>ObTrav:
>You streamlined you ships computer to access by voice command. 
>You've been in a nasty bar-fight.
>Your face is all swollen from the bar stool that fractured your jaw.
>Sure, medical patched you up ok, but your speech is slurred by both your
>wounds and Scout brew.
>The ship won't open the hatch, now what?
>
swear, mumble and swear some more...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 03:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May  1 02:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
In-Reply-To: <F781t93Lx9w5dRuYnZl00006be9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20501.004006.8Y1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>That doesn't necessarily follow.  TL13 is where controlled and
>>contained Xray weapon lasers appear, is it not?
>
> That's why I said probably. However if we want to build a ChemDet warhead 
> using the canon laser rules (or a slightly tweaked version) ChemDets will 
> suck big time unless they are grav focused or use X-ray wavelengths.

Well, there's *no* way to get X-rays from *chemical* reactions. The
wavelengths of even "soft" x-rays are just too short to be generated by
any electron shell transition involved in chemistry. 

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that *no* electron shell
transition has the required energy to create an x-ray photon. 

If so, it takes *nuclear* transitions (ie stuff inside the nucleus
shifting around), quark reactions, or particle/anti-particle reactions.
to create X-rays. Or playing games with particle beams.

> The laser cartridge question is not my largest obstacle. The regular CLC has 
> more than enough power to be a viable weapon for civilian/light military use 
> especially considering the price tag of the alternative (NukeDets cost 1+MCr 
> and a missile armed ship can easily carry three times its own cost in 
> missiles). The big problem is explaining why so few beams from a NukeDet 
> seems to hit the target. At 15000 km the target can only evade 0.5m/G so the 
> number of hits should be more or less equal to the number of rods/focal 
> arrays pointed at the target. If we assume that all the lasers fired hits we 
> get the following TL13 500 kg warheads (regular CLC).

Well, turn the problem around. At 1500 km, how can the missile not get
picked off by the target's point defense lasers?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 03:38:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May  1 02:38:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
In-Reply-To: <a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20501.003138.7T0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been writing,
> involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some rather
> unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there have
> been a couple sequels.
>
> The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in the
> soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior speakers.
> Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as they
> wade into combat.
>
> The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon"
> at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-).

I recall being impressed with a few of those, but lately I've been more
interested in "Bun-Bun". A 7,000 ton tank with a 16" gun that fires
APFSDS rounds that achieve near orbital velocities (and that have
enough antimatterinside to be approxinately 10 kiloton yield) tends to
grab your attention.

Well, ok, it's actually *not* a tank. Just a self propelled gun. They
add the armor (and, I suspect, *lots* of secondary armament) in the
next book.

I'm glad to see that I wasn't the only person to ever look at the
crawler they used to haul Saturn V rockets (and now Space Shuttles) out
to the pad and envisioned it with a battleship turret mounted on it. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 03:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed May  1 02:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP trade codes
References: <004a01c1ef5c$d0e67b40$66d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <000e01c1f0f4$846ce4e0$e800a8c0@imogen>

"In" indicates a net exporter of industrial goods
"Ni" indicates a net importer of industrial goods
"Ag" indicates a net exporter of agricultural goods
"Na" indicates a net importer of agricultural goods

Does it make sense to have these codes for Red Zones?

I know it is possible to justify the occasional anomaly  but  the
rules for applying these codes does not take Red Zone status into
account ... this seems wrong.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 03:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed May  1 02:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Line Editor Haikus
References: <01c401c1f097$3104f160$74d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <004301c1f09c$cd426710$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <00c201c1f0f4$b5a4fde0$349793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> 
> Don't look at me man
> Marketing plug not in vain
> I bought the darn thing!


We played Twilight's Peak
A new version, for new times
But still we all died


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 03:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed May  1 02:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A Review
Message-ID: <00f601c1f0f6$928008d0$349793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

I've pulled the following review of Traveller's Aide #1 off the Citizens
boards for your amusement....

"Traveller's Aide #1 - Personal Weapons of Charted Space" a PDF supplement
for Classic Traveller and Traveller20 by QuikLink Interactive
(www.TravellerRPG.com)
***********************

Reader Review:

Well I've had a few spare moments today to give this supplement a good read
and I'm impressed. The quality is very high and the content is excellent. It
does a great job of covering all aspects of personal armament. The persona
paragraphs are great and the rules are pretty clearly explained. You get
tables and explanations for both the forthcoming Traveller20 (T20) rules set
and good old Classic (LBB) Traveller.

There are a few new weapons, some new insights in their use and a good
description of Imperial Weapons Permits. There are even some new ways to use
your guns, like "Panic Fire" and "Two-Gun Kid" style.

Of course if guns aren't your style they've got you covered with a full
selection of lethal and not so lethal melee weapons to chose from.

Scattered throughout the text are over a dozen (13 to be exact, no doubt
just so I could say over a dozen in this review) examples of some of the
weapons in nice line drawing style, reminiscent of the DGP Equipment Sheets
from MegaTraveller.

The whole thing wraps up with a brief look at who makes and sells all the
goodies and what happens when you get caught with one you shouldn't have. It
promises to be a good series of supplements, I can hardly wait for coverage
of armor and military weapons.

You can buy one issue at a time (released every month or two), subscribe to
6 issues of your choice each year at a reduced price or sign up for your
pick of 12 issues over two years for greater savings and a free print
version Best Of annual issue. Its avaiable now for download at
http://www.travellerrpg.com/PDF/ta0001.html or check out the free 5 page
sampler.

If there is one major fault with this product it is the background color on
the pages. While fine or even preferably for electronic media it is a
problem when printing it out. This has been pointed out by other reviewers
and the publisher is looking at changing it for future editions.

************************************************








From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 04:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed May  1 03:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Community
Message-ID: <00f701c1f0f7$237f7af0$349793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Just a quick note... first off, thanks to the tons of people who replied to
the request for reviewers. Speaking personally, I was getting a bit worried
by the lack of response as we approach release date, so it's nice to see
people showing an interest. Makes me feel like it may be worth continuing.

... and a bit of a policy statement. Various people have mentioned telling
games companies what they wanted at conventions etc, and then being
disappointed when those issues weren't addressed. We're very keen to hear
what you want from the Traveller line, so please feel free to discuss here
or contact me direct with product proposals etc. If you're offering to write
them, even better! But do let us know what you want, else we'll just produce
stuff WE like....




Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 04:07:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed May  1 03:07:06 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP trade codes
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B97@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter L.S. Trevor [mailto:ptrevor@rctrevor.com]
> Sent: 01 May 2002 10:42
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] UWP trade codes
> 
> 
> "In" indicates a net exporter of industrial goods
> "Ni" indicates a net importer of industrial goods
> "Ag" indicates a net exporter of agricultural goods
> "Na" indicates a net importer of agricultural goods
> 
> Does it make sense to have these codes for Red Zones?
> 
> I know it is possible to justify the occasional anomaly  but  the
> rules for applying these codes does not take Red Zone status into
> account ... this seems wrong.
> 
> Regards PLST

So just because a world is interdicted it closes all its industrial
production down? A world is Industrial if it has the tech base and
poplation to sustain large scale industrial processes, not because it
sells industrial goods to its neighbours. Or would you not classify
current day Earth as Industrial?

Similarly, if the Hydrographics, atmosphere etc are right for
Agriculture to be widespread then the world is Ag, if not it is probably
Na... in neither case does that actualy mean that importing and
exporting to other systems *has* to be conducted.

I dont know where you got your definitions from, but they seem to be
only a rule of thumb

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 05:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Wed May  1 04:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <F189nbEG10Gai4omRXf000051b3@hotmail.com>

> > Tod likes all martial music.  It is a sad thing that modern war rids us 
>a
> > music as combat is engaged (with the notable exception of bagpipes, that 
>pop
> > up now and again).  I'm just watching "Waterloo" again and am to the
> > beginning of the battle.  Serried ranks with bras swork and bayonets
> > gleaming in the sun, and martial music.  It stirs the blood.
>
>I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been writing,
>involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some rather
>unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there have
>been a couple sequels.
>
>The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in the
>soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior speakers.
>Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as 
>they
>wade into combat.
>
>The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon"
>at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-).

"Kelly's Heroes" has the scene of the Sherman's playing music very loudly as 
they take apart the train yard...  "I've Been Working on the Railroad..."



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 06:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed May  1 05:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
In-Reply-To: <20501.003138.7T0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <a2.24eb3d8e.2a00b462@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020501081448.026e9eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 12:31 AM 5/1/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
> > I assume some of you have read the series that John Ringo's been writing,
> > involving US Special Forces in futuristic battle armor fighting some rather
> > unlikely aliens. _A Hymn Before Battle_ was the first book, and there have
> > been a couple sequels.
> > The battle armor has a built-in sound system, which not only plays in the
> > soldier's helmet but can be set to play VERY LOUDLY on exterior speakers.
> > Ringo often describes exactly what rock hit the soldiers are playing as 
> they
> > wade into combat.
> > The scene where a battalion deploys while playing "Tie a Yellow Ribbon"
> > at 120 decibels has stuck with me :-).
>I recall being impressed with a few of those, but lately I've been more
>interested in "Bun-Bun". A 7,000 ton tank with a 16" gun that fires
>APFSDS rounds that achieve near orbital velocities (and that have
>enough antimatterinside to be approxinately 10 kiloton yield) tends to
>grab your attention.
>Well, ok, it's actually *not* a tank. Just a self propelled gun. They
>add the armor (and, I suspect, *lots* of secondary armament) in the
>next book.
>I'm glad to see that I wasn't the only person to ever look at the
>crawler they used to haul Saturn V rockets (and now Space Shuttles) out
>to the pad and envisioned it with a battleship turret mounted on it.

Ahh...someone else who scarfed up "When The Devil Dances" when it came off 
the shelves.

The hardware is fun, but I also like the undercurrent of back room 
interstellar politics going on.
I hope he turns up that up in the next book (it's not a triology).

Speaking of MilSF, the next Honor Harrington book has been announced.  "War 
of Honor"
Due out in October.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 06:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Wed May  1 05:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP trade codes
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B97@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020501072509.00a62d00@mail.earthlink.net>

At 11:05 AM 5/1/2002 +0100, Matt wrote:
>So just because a world is interdicted it closes all its industrial
>production down? A world is Industrial if it has the tech base and
>poplation to sustain large scale industrial processes, not because it
>sells industrial goods to its neighbours. Or would you not classify
>current day Earth as Industrial?

According to Traveller definitions, no.  Mexico City and L.A. might fit the 
definitions, but Earth in general does not have a tainted atmosphere.

Jimmy Simpson                   nimrodd2@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Home of the Reavers' Deep Library Data


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 06:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed May  1 05:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP trade codes
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B97@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <009301c1f10c$bfdfc7a0$e800a8c0@imogen>

Matt Bond wrote:
> I dont know where you got your definitions from, but they seem to be
> only a rule of thumb

Okay, I just checked and both "Ag" and "In" are not *necessarily*
net exporters.  But  "Na"  and  "Ni"  *are*  net  importers.  The
references are CT Book 3 p16:

    "Non-agricultural worlds must import much of their foodstuffs
    from off planet."  (... but it does go on to say  that  there
    may be locally produced synthetics.)

    "Non-industrial worlds are forced to  import  much  of  their
    finished goods."

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 07:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed May  1 06:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <3CCFA34B.6080406@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20020501130330.5038.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
>
>ObTrav:
>You streamlined you ships computer to access by voice
>command.  You've been in a nasty bar-fight.  Your
>face is all swollen from the bar stool that fractured
>your jaw.  Sure, medical patched you up ok, but your
>speech is slurred by both your wounds and Scout brew.
>The ship won't open the hatch, now what?
>

Drink more Scout's Brew!!



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 07:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed May  1 06:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <025401c1f110$ab19a580$349793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

http://www.farfuture.net/cgi-bin/Trav/ixs/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro&BypassCo
okie=true

on the Citizens board (addy above) there is now a section for prospective
reviewers of QLI products. If you're interested in being one (even if you've
already been in touch) please go there and add your details. Requests will
be posted there in future, so watch the board...



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 07:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed May  1 06:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Gas Giants (was Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in
 Traveller)
In-Reply-To: <20020501080906.3A45E279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020501145427.00a9ce30@mail.pi.se>

>tim@freeman.little-possums.net writes:
> > Once you get past Jupiter's mass, the diameter is estimated to stay
> > pretty much constant until you get substantial fusion approaching red
> > dwarf mass.  Then the diameter increases again due to greatly
> > increasing temperatures.  Also, new and/or hot superjovians are
> > expected to be somewhat larger in diameter than Jupiter.
> >
> > It does vary by about 20-30%, but that's negligible over a factor of
> > 50 mass range, and any given superjovian can be expected to be
> > fairly close to Jupiter's diameter, plus or minus 10-20%.
>
>Got a reference for this?

<raising his hand>

I believe I mentioned one such paper recently. There was no interest then. :-(

You can find the preprint abstract and the paper at

http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0202234

A second paper by the same authors (Guillot & Showman) is about the 
atmospheric circulation of the planet (51Peg b)

http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0202236

>If we ever revise GT:First In, one of the things I want to fix is the way
>you generate gas giant sizes. I'm not particuarly happy with the kludge
>I originally came up with - for one thing, you can't really generate super-
>Jovians with it.

If you ever revise GT:First In, I have some ideas.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 07:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed May  1 06:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
In-Reply-To: <20501.003138.7T0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B8F53EC6.5915F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/1/02 1:31 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

> 
> I recall being impressed with a few of those, but lately I've been more
> interested in "Bun-Bun". A 7,000 ton tank with a 16" gun that fires
> APFSDS rounds that achieve near orbital velocities (and that have
> enough antimatterinside to be approxinately 10 kiloton yield) tends to
> grab your attention.
> 
> Well, ok, it's actually *not* a tank. Just a self propelled gun. They
> add the armor (and, I suspect, *lots* of secondary armament) in the
> next book.
> 
> I'm glad to see that I wasn't the only person to ever look at the
> crawler they used to haul Saturn V rockets (and now Space Shuttles) out
> to the pad and envisioned it with a battleship turret mounted on it.

I think I prefer Keith Laumer's 'Bolos' .  For the honor of the regiment.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 07:43:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed May  1 06:43:15 2002
Subject: [TML] gearheaded link
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020501094503.00b93b00@mail.charter.net>

<http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/ptech/04/26/keyless.keyboards.idg/index.html>

Interesting article on upcoming input options for PDAs.
Useful for Traveller Percomps.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 07:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed May  1 06:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <F1417pLPLWMt2oXeExP00005e6f@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "I bet Tod really likes hearing "Men of Harlech". Not that it's a 
French song, nor did they sing it at Rourke's Drift outside of the movie."


Mr. Kwon,

     While the "Men of Harlech" scene in "Zulu" still gives me the willies, 
I prefer the light-hearted "Shermans at the Nazi supply depot" interlude of 
that Vietnam-in-WW2 flick, "Kelly's Heroes".
     For those of you who haven't seen the movie or cannot remember the 
scene; Donald Sutherland* leads a group of tankers who are decidedly odd, 
they fire paint-filled shells and play Wagner through loud speakers mounted 
on their turrets.  They nonchalantly lunber out of a railroad tunnel and 
into a hornets' nest of Nazi troops at a supply depot.  While their speakers 
play a mournful Hank Williams' honky tonk tune, Sutherland et. al. slaughter 
infantry, flakpanzers, weapon squads, and remfs alike.
     After putting their main guns and MGs to good use, the three Shermans 
waddle off down the railway accompaied by an eerily cheery instrumental 
version of "I've Been Working On The Railroad" which is occasionally 
punctuated by the blast from a 75mm main gun.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "Charlie Don't Surf!" Whipsnade

* - Sutherland also presents two very good dog imitations in the film.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 08:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed May  1 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
In-Reply-To: <200204302040.FIS03034@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020501141341.16706.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

OK, here is the deal.  I really enjoyed THUDD.  I can
see how design system wars would hurt it, but I don't
think anyone will argue against having extra ships
available.

So, barring any objections I want to bring it back,
only with a little different flavor.  More information
later, but for now, suffice it to say It will contain
more than just FF&S designs.

Here is what I need from the TML:

1.  Is anyone interested in this?
2.  What design systems should be supported?
3.  What ships would you like to see?
4.  Would anyone else be willing to help out?

OK, More later.

Thanks,
Paul



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 09:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed May  1 08:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Review: Travellers Aide #1
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B9C@KARPAD01>

Travellers Aide #1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space

As the name suggests this supplement covers those weapons a Traveller
might expect to be carrying about his person, or will find being used
againast him. These essentially consiste of civilian and paramilitary
weapons, as well as typical melee weapons (ranging from TL0 Stone Clubs
to High Tech Boarding Axes) and lower TL ranged weapons (Bows, Black
Powder Firearms, Slings etc). It does not cover purely military or
support weaponry per se, except where rules pertain to both civilian and
military weapons, and these are to be covered in a forthcoming
supplement. What it does do is collect all the weapons of CT that are
not pure military in one place, with complete desriptions and statistics
for each. The product is aimed at the T20 and Classic Traveller Markets,
though obviously GM's and players familiar with other versions of
Traveller should have little difficulty converting the stats and rules
provided.

The supplement is well presented, with a reasonably attractive full
colour cover, and contains 43 interior pages, of which 40 
contain the meat of the product. The layout suffers slightly from being
a pdf document rather than an actual printed book, as the page
backgroung and borders, while attractive and pleasing to the eye, will
be difficult to print out unless you have access to a good quality
coulour printer, and the onscreen layout suffers from the usual drawback
of pdf, in that in order to make the text legible, you cannot have the
whole page on screen at once necessitating a lot of scrolling up and
down.

There are 4 main types of information to be found in the text: Flavour,
Description, Rules, and Backround. The flavour text is quite
entertaining, mainly consisting of a Retire Marine Lt Colonel, with a
rather Gung Ho attitude to weaponry, A Naval Lt Commander who would
appear to want the 3rd Imperium rid of weaponry outside the Military, as
civilians are too incompetent or lack discipline to use them properly,
and the occasional representative of one of the Major Arms
Manufacturers.

The Rules cover useful things such as Licences, Avoiding Searches, Burst
& Autofire, Area & Suppresive Fire, and Panic Fire. The rules themselves
are faily clearly laid out, though I don't necesarily agree with all of
them. For example, the Area fire rules have it that even if you are in
solid cover (a trench or a concrete wall etc), if you are in the primary
target area you cannot avoid being hit by at least one bullet... Or at
least, you can't using T20. The CT Area fire rules presented here take
no account of cover, but even standing in the open you can avoid being
hit...

There are several areas where such inconsistencies occur, though I
suppose this is to be expected somwhat due to the nature of the game
mechanics in the different versions, but in some places it is not clear
whether a particular modifier is for use only with T20, only with CT, or
equally to Both. eg, A laser dot pointer "gives the firer an advantage
in rapid point-and-
shoot situations.This equates +2 to hit in T20,but only at close range."
but a HUD "gives the user a firing bonus at any range:+3 to hit at all
ranges." and a Squealer gives a penalty to attack for the victim "This
penalty is -2 to all rolls in T20,or a DM of -1 on all rolls in CT." So
the -2 T20 penalty cause by the Sqealer equates to a -1DM in CT... so
does the +2 T20 to hit modifier for a laser pointer also equate to a
+1DM in CT, and is the +3 Modifier for HUD for T20, CT or Both?

Actually, it isn't too dificult to figure out these things for yourself,
but for the Novice GM it would help if there was consistency applied in
the decriptions.

There are also a few minor errors in the text, and in the Area fire
Table the results of making your Reflex save if you are in the secondary
area of effect have been transposed... so according to the table if you
make your save you are hit by one bullet, if you fail it you are
missed... which is the opposite of the correct version in the text.
These are not particularly serious errors, but it would be advisable for
the proofreading at Quiklink to be improved. At least with Electronic
Publication and Distribution it is relatively easy to amend errors such
as these.

Most of the rest of the supplement is devoted to the description of the
assorted weaponry, and the collation of the game specific information
into numerous tables. For T20 statistics each weapon gets a fairly bland
one line entry, though this does cover everything you need to know about
a weapon in the d20 System. The CT stats are copious, with first the
range modifiers for each weapon in one large table, followed by the
Armour penetration modifier table. Finally a catalog of specific
versions of the generic weapon types is presented. A nice addition is
slight modifiers to the weapons based on which specific model you buy.
Descriptions of a wide variety of weapon manufacturers are included, for
extra background.

On the whole I feel that this supplement is a promising start in a line
that will hopefully go from strength to strength, and I would award it
7/10.

Matthew Bond

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 09:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Wed May  1 08:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #459 - 20 msgs
Message-ID: <RELAY239nl6gvdJ4abG000019df@relay2.softcomca.com>

John T. Kwon <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

> I bet Tod really likes hearing "Men of Harlech". Not that 
> it's a French song, nor did they sing it at Rourke's Drift 
> outside of the movie.

Do you know this for a fact, John?  I mean, are there actually
any authoritative historical documents that state that the men
of "B" company 2/24th Regiment "definitely did *not* sing "Men
of Harlech" at any time during the Battle of Rourke's Drift"?

Just curious :^)

    - Mark C.

"No parrots were involved in an accident on the M-1 today when a
 Lorry carrying High-octane fuel was in collison with a bollard."
    - Monty Python's Flying Circus



--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 09:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Wed May  1 08:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] I wasn't kidding - can someone help me?
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01140604@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

--=_IS_MIME_Boundary
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

As I e-mailed the list a couple of days ago, I've spilled a dark substance on the first page of the "Stranded on Arden" adventure in my new copy of the FFE "Double Adventures" reprint.

Would someone be willing to contact me off-list about sending me a photocopy of the first two pages of that section (as it has gone through the page, although I caught it then).

Thanks for the laughs, but I really do need this...


DonM.
______
Donald E. McKinney
CC Online/Java/Legacy CM Team Lead
Amdocs Champaign, Inc.
2109 S. Fox Drive, Champaign, IL
office: 217-239-8365, cell: 217-202-2497
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The information contained in this message is proprietary of Amdocs,
protected from disclosure, and may be privileged.
The information is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s)
of the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, use, distribution or copying of 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 09:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Wed May  1 08:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  TML Haiku
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0205011029480.22974-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

they call me gearhead
'cause I like FF and S
High Guard is faster

looked for adventure
but came home to big surprise
Aslan stole my land

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 09:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  1 08:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Gas Giants (was Re: Reasons to have lifeboats in Traveller)
Message-ID: <149.dd74b03.2a0166e8@aol.com>

--part1_149.dd74b03.2a0166e8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> I believe I mentioned one such paper recently. There was no interest then. 
:-(

Heh. So much to do, only so much of me to go around. Thanks for
reposting - I've saved off your email against the day when I revisit the
book. 

*If* we ever decide to do a second edition, I'll be sure and solicit ideas
from the community - you folks have given First In a much more thorough
playtest over the last few years than it could possibly have gotten before
publication.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_149.dd74b03.2a0166e8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; I believe I mentioned one such paper recently. There was no interest then. :-(
<BR>
<BR>Heh. So much to do, only so much of me to go around. Thanks for
<BR>reposting - I've saved off your email against the day when I revisit the
<BR>book. 
<BR>
<BR>*If* we ever decide to do a second edition, I'll be sure and solicit ideas
<BR>from the community - you folks have given First In a much more thorough
<BR>playtest over the last few years than it could possibly have gotten before
<BR>publication.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_149.dd74b03.2a0166e8_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 10:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May  1 09:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #459 - 20 msgs
Message-ID: <200205011601.FKE08125@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"markc@peak.org" asks
>Do you know this for a fact, John?  I mean, are there 
>actually any authoritative historical documents that state 
>that the men of "B" company 2/24th Regiment "definitely did 
>*not* sing "Men of Harlech" at any time during the Battle of 
>Rourke's Drift"?
>

During the showing of Zulu on the History Channel, 
several "experts" pontificated that there was no exchange of 
singing vs. chanting, and especially no singing of "Men of 
Harlech" (or at least no written record of it).  I have seen 
similar statements accompanying articles written about the 
song itself.  However, given the penchant for Welshmen and 
Scotsmen to sing regimental songs, hymns, and anthems during 
combat, I tend to wonder.  There are plenty of documented 
examples of this in WW I.  In consideration of the fact that 
the officers were English, and not Welsh, I wonder if these 
events were omitted in earlier company histories. WW I after 
all, forced officers to be more "egalitarian" with their men 
(live with your men in a wet trench for a year, and I'm sure 
it changes your social perspective - it certainly changed 
Tolkein's).
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 10:14:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May  1 09:14:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Men of Harlech
Message-ID: <200205011613.FKE09967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark C. asked earlier if anyone knew for certain that "Men of 
Harlech" was not sung at Rourke's Drift.

Outside of Wales, the song has become well known as a result 
of the film Zulu which told the story of a small detachment 
of soldiers and their epic stand against a huge Zulu army in 
southern Africa. The soldiers were from a regiment which 
recruited in south east Wales and the borders and their 
heroism came to be compared with the bold exploits of their 
ancestors in ancient days. The song would have been known in 
Wales before the Zulu War but was it actually sung at the 
battle of Rorke's Drift? The curator of the unit's regimental 
museum thinks it unlikely, since the song (first published in 
1860) was only officially adopted by the regiment in 1881, 
whereas the action depicted in the film took place in 1879. 

ObTrav: Aside from filk, which tends to be humorous, or 
silly, is there any really stirring filk to be had on a par 
with "Men of Harlech"?  Perhaps "Men of Deneb" with suitably 
altered words?
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 10:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed May  1 09:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <F115LJ0HYnmTvdeLhie00006b47@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020270379.5137.ajackson@ping>

Patrik Holmstr=F6m writes:
>=20
> It's not really that bad (though nearly). For example any 200 dt Trader (=
or
>  other low acceleration ship) or a Tigress class ship will be hit by ever=
y
>  shot fired by a (lightspeed) weapon at less than 10 hexes.

Actually, a 6G 500,000 dton ship is hittable at something like 17 hexes, so
yeah, I suppose there's a point to Medium range.  Long range can be useful =
for
blowing up megafreighters, Extreme range is mostly useful for sniping at fi=
xed
emplacements.

MCS, unfortunately, still has somewhat mangled hit probabilities, making
hitting too easy at long range.  I've been playing around with one that's
fairly statistically accurate, but it's fairly difficult to do right.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 10:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May  1 09:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Men of Harlech
Message-ID: <200205011631.FKG01685@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

TW9yZSBvbiAiTWVuIG9mIEhhcmxlY2giDQoNCkZyb20gYW5vdGhlciBoaXN0b3JpYW46DQoN
CldlJ3ZlIGFsbCBzZWVuIHRoZSBtYXJ2ZWxsb3VzIG1vdmllLCB3aGVyZSB0aGUgaGVyb2lj
IFdlbHNoIA0KZ2Fycmlzb24gYXQgUm9ya2UncyBEcmlmdCBtYXRjaCB0aGUgYXdlc29tZSBa
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aHQgb24gd2luZG93cw0KT2ZmaWNlIGJ1aWxkaW5ncyBhZ2FpbnN0IHNreQ0KU3R1Y2sgaW5z
aWRlIGFnYWluDQo=

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 10:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed May  1 09:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
In-Reply-To: <F1417pLPLWMt2oXeExP00005e6f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020501090414.009f01c0@mindspring.com>

At 01:48 PM 5/1/02 +0000, you wrote:
>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>     "I bet Tod really likes hearing "Men of Harlech". Not that it's a 
> French song, nor did they sing it at Rourke's Drift outside of the movie."
>
>     While the "Men of Harlech" scene in "Zulu" still gives me the 
> willies, I prefer the light-hearted "Shermans at the Nazi supply depot" 
> interlude of that Vietnam-in-WW2 flick, "Kelly's Heroes".
>     For those of you who haven't seen the movie or cannot remember the 
> scene; Donald Sutherland* leads a group of tankers who are decidedly odd, 
> they fire paint-filled shells and play Wagner through loud speakers 
> mounted on their turrets.  They nonchalantly lunber out of a railroad 
> tunnel and into a hornets' nest of Nazi troops at a supply depot.  While 
> their speakers play a mournful Hank Williams' honky tonk tune, Sutherland 
> et. al. slaughter infantry, flakpanzers, weapon squads, and remfs alike.
>     After putting their main guns and MGs to good use, the three Shermans 
> waddle off down the railway accompaied by an eerily cheery instrumental 
> version of "I've Been Working On The Railroad" which is occasionally 
> punctuated by the blast from a 75mm main gun.

Feh.

"Ride of the Valkyrie" from Apocalypse Now.  Stunning sequence.  In fact, 
when I started riding in Hueys in my army career, I always had that 
sequence in mind..

That bit was the inspiration for the Imperial Marines jamming the enemy com 
channels with their bagpipes, BTW.

(LOL!  My .mp3 player just started Metallica's "One"...  I guess it doen't 
want me discussing war so light-heartedly)


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 10:34:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed May  1 09:34:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <bc.25d5fa44.2a008f10@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020501091025.00a07670@mindspring.com>

At 08:21 PM 4/30/02 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 4/30/2002 2:04:11 PM Central Daylight Time,
>tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>
> >OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?
>
>Marc's evil twin Morc

With a name like that, I'd be evil too...


--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed May  1 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020501091025.00a07670@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c1f12e$68e23790$3aea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> > >OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?
> >
> >Marc's evil twin Morc
> 
> With a name like that, I'd be evil too...
> 
>

If I had an evil twin, nobody would notice the difference....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 10:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Wed May  1 09:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] I wasn't kidding - can someone help me?
Message-ID: <OF32593FBC.7BDFB34E-ON85256BAC.005BBF2C@pheaa.org>






>>As I e-mailed the list a couple of days ago, I've spilled a dark
substance on the first page of the "Stranded on Arden" >>adventure in my
new copy of the FFE "Double Adventures" reprint.

>>Would someone be willing to contact me off-list about sending me a
photocopy of the first two pages of that section (as it >>has gone through
the page, although I caught it then).


>>Thanks for the laughs, but I really do need this...

Mr. McKinney

I would be more than willing to send this to you. if you could send me your
address to mahina_tiare@hushmail.com

I will get the copies made this week or by Saturday at the latest and get
it shipped to you

Bill Lane





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 11:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed May  1 10:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Biter landgrabbee stuff
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHPGPAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've been doing some thinking about my
Biter landgrab (to my annoyance, a number
of things I had planned won't work)

Anyway, to resume

Biter's Highport has been oopsied a number of times
during recent armed discussions as to allegiance
so as Biter officially joined the Imperium it had effectively
no high port.  It had been bombed, landed upon
and had other indignities inflicted upon it
by militaries who wanted access to the Sword
World's Main.

Technically speaking, there is little commerce between
Biter and the outside world, but there is a lot
of transshipping and refueling taking place.  As a result
they port authority and Biter yard, designed and built
the new Biter High port  (located at the 100 D limit)
Inexpensive enough to be rebuild readily, conceived as a
module capable of easy expansion, designed for ships
to readily refuel, offload and transship cargo without need to
travel between the jump limit and the planet.  High Aleph
officially opens in two standard weeks, with Beta scheduled
for activation in 6 months.


50,000-ton Biter High-class , Aleph (TL10)

Crew: 702 Total. 81 Command and Control, 600 Engineering, 5 Medical, 16
Flight Crew.

Hull: 50,000-ton VGSL, non Lifting Body, Medium Frame, Standard Materials,
Crystaliron (Expensive) Armored Cylinder configuration Hull (DR 100),
Standard Compartmentalization.

Control Areas: 2 Command Bridge (Complexity 8), Director-class Control
Module CM-750-10 (Hardened, Complexity 8), 3 Adv Sensors, Adv Commo Suite.

Communicator Range (mi)  Radio  Maser  Laser  Meson
Command Bridge 50,000,000 0 100,000,000 100,000
Director-class Control Module CM-750-10 50,000,000 500,000,000 100,000,000
10,000,000
Adv Commo Suite 50,000,000 500,000,000 100,000,000 10,000,000
Sensors Range/Rating (mi)  PESA  AESA  Radscanner
Command Bridge 45,000/39 150,000/42 3,000/32
Director-class Control Module CM-750-10 450,000/45 1,000,000/47 30,000/38
Adv Sensors 450,000/45 1,000,000/47 30,000/38
EW Range(/Rating) (mi)  Area Jammer  Radio Direction Finder  Radio Jammer
Director-class Control Module CM-750-10 45/7 500,000,000 50,000

Engineering: Engineering, 6 Non-starship Shipyard (20), 769 Standard
Thruster (0.10 / 0.29 Gs, 6,152 stons thrust), 20000 Fuel Tank (Loaded with
20,000 stons), 100 Fuel Processor (25 hours to refine Fuel Tank), 93
Utility, 100 Gravitics (45,000 stons Aerostatic Lift), 375.8 Man-Hours/day
Maintenance.

Accommodations: 400 Stateroom, Marine Barracks (Stateroom, 5xBunkroom, Gym,
Armory, Cap Launcher, 2xCap Rack, Morgue, Shooting Range, Military
Holoventure), 17 Full Life Support, 2 Evacuation Bay, Adv (24 Patients), 3
Military Sickbay (12 Patients), 8 Complete Workshop (24 Users), 100 Escape
Capsule (1000 Users), 20 Normal Office (80 Users), 4 Luxury
Hall/Bar/Conference Room (200 Users), Troop Armory (20 Users).

Stores: 4000 Hold, 8000 Spacedock (4,000 dtons for small craft available),
1200 Spacedock (Lighter, 2x10-ton Care ER Launch, 5x10-ton Klang Launch).

Statistics: EMass 21,299.14 stons, LMass 61,474.14 stons, Cost MCr6,128.3,
HP 745,408, Damage Threshold 74,541, Size Mod 13, HT 12, CP 1,616.

Performance: sAcc 0.10 / 0.29 Gs, Stall Speed 1,459 mph, Unable to Fly,
Skimming Airspeed 2,726 mph, Aerostatic Lift 45,000 stons, Unable to Land or
Takeoff.

Sample Times : Escape Velocity From Orbit 0.94 Hrs, 100D 20.18 Hrs,
Earth-Mars 346.55 Hrs.

Options
All times are Earth Std, Full Load.
100D and Earth-Mars assume mid-point turnover.
Turrets add to Jump Tonnage for Jump Drive/Fuel calculations



Printed with GTS Version 0.00.00 on 5/1/2002 9:46:07 AM
Copyright  2000 by jml

Notes

the Space dock hold 2 1000 ships, 3 500, and 5 100 ton ships.

The station is designed to carry a complete contingent aboard and usually
operated on a 3 - 1 week duty cycle.

the marines are not Impie marines but are Colonial marines, usually half
manned The launchers provide additional
evacuatiuon facilities in case of attack.  The marines serve as an OP force
for protected force training using a couple of salvaged ships

The launches are used by customs.


____________
my other computer runs BSD
and another, Mac OS 9, and
another NT, and .....
you get the idea

jml
jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 11:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed May  1 10:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <000c01c1f12e$68e23790$3aea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020501175121.4779.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>

--- MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > >OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?
> > >
> > >Marc's evil twin Morc
> > 
> > With a name like that, I'd be evil too...
> > 
> >
> 
> If I had an evil twin, nobody would notice the
> difference....


You need a bumper sticker:

"I make my evil twin look good!"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 11:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Wed May  1 10:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020501091025.00a07670@mindspring.com> <000c01c1f12e$68e23790$3aea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <010e01c1f139$4fcc3f20$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Wednesday, May 01, 2002 9:36 AM
MJ Dougherty said,

> If I had an evil twin, nobody would notice the difference....

That is why I have a good twin.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"There is no right and wrong.  There is only fun, and boring."  -Plague,
"Hackers"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 12:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed May  1 11:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <000c01c1f12e$68e23790$3aea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205012106070.15597-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, 1 May 2002, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > >Marc's evil twin Morc
> > With a name like that, I'd be evil too...
> 
> If I had an evil twin, nobody would notice the difference....

But if _you_ are the evil twin and the nice one is somewhere missing?

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 12:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed May  1 11:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <000c01c1f12e$68e23790$3aea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEIJGPAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Evil with twins, that easy, its the evil triplets that 
get interesting.

_____________________
If Dual became schizophrenic would you get
Quatre?

jml
_____________________

> > >OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?
> >
> >Marc's evil twin Morc
> 
> With a name like that, I'd be evil too...
> 
>

If I had an evil twin, nobody would notice the difference....

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 12:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Wed May  1 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <000c01c1f12e$68e23790$3aea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020501091025.00a07670@mindspring.com>
 <000c01c1f12e$68e23790$3aea93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <200205011449320875.131EE3ED@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>> > >OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?
>> >
>> >Marc's evil twin Morc
>> 
>> With a name like that, I'd be evil too...
>> 
>>
>
>If I had an evil twin, nobody would notice the difference....

In your case he'd be the nice one ;)

*kidding of course!*

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 12:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed May  1 11:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <200205011449320875.131EE3ED@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEIMGPAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

"I'd like you all to meet my evilish twin"

"I'd like you all to meet my goodish twin."

Is it just me or is this lacking in closure somehow?

jml
the sorta vaguely goodish, sorta vaguely evilish
sorta vaguely middle of the roadish twin


>> > >OK...  Who is modeling the shirt?
>> >
>> >Marc's evil twin Morc
>> 
>> With a name like that, I'd be evil too...
>> 
>>
>
>If I had an evil twin, nobody would notice the difference....

In your case he'd be the nice one ;)

*kidding of course!*

Hunter

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 12:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Wed May  1 11:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Review: Travellers Aide #1
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B9C@KARPAD01>
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B9C@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <200205011458000745.1326A3CC@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/1/2002 at 4:22 PM Matthew Bond wrote:

>Travellers Aide #1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space
>

<snip review>

>Matthew Bond

Thanks Matthew! 

On the printing issue, this has been raised a number of times so we are=
 planning to at least drop the colored page background if not offer both a=
 screen and a print versions in the future.

The lack of a table for the T20 weapon list was also raised in most reviews=
 so far and I plan to release an updated version soon to correct this.

I'll get with Martin on the inconsistencies you mention and see if we can't=
 get those cleared up in the updated release.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms
http://www.TravellerRPG.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 13:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed May  1 12:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] JTAS reprints arrive
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B9C@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEENDDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Two announcements from Marc:

Today Marc received the first of the two Classic Traveller reprint volumes
that contain the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society. Volume 1 has the
earliest issues, numbers 1 through 12. He said "Its beauuutiful". On
Saturday, May 4th he will have Volume 2 with issues 13 through 24. Marc is
going to be busy filling he pre-publish orders over the next few days. Now
would be a great time to zip your order onto the stack! Go to Marc's
http://www.farfuture.net for more info.

A volunteer web slinger has made a few mods to the Far Future Enterprises
web site. Give it a try and post your feedback here. Thanks!


One announcement from me:

With the publication of the JTAS reprints came a special treat, at least to
me. Best of JTAS volumes 5 & 6 were never published, but the cover art was
completed and paid for by GDW. Marc has put all of the cover images as
thumbnails on the back cover of the reprints, and that includes those
unpublished covers. Since they were so small, I requested larger scans from
Marc, which I have published on TAS-Net. You can see them by visiting this
URL http://www.jtas.org/Library/issues.html and clicking on the thumbnails.



 Colin Michael - "SwordWorlder" 
 TAS-NET Administrator 
 JTAS.Org 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 13:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed May  1 12:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] JTAS reprints arrive
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEENDDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKENDDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Looks like a dozen or so of the images didn't make the transfer, yet.
Working on it.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>
> A volunteer web slinger has made a few mods to the Far Future Enterprises
> web site. Give it a try and post your feedback here. Thanks!




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 13:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed May  1 12:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020501090414.009f01c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CD046B3.3040105@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:

 > "Ride of the Valkyrie" from Apocalypse Now.  Stunning sequence.  In
 > fact, when I started riding in Hueys in my army career, I always had
 >  that sequence in mind..

Robert Duvall's chracter in that film is based on a real person and 
unit. Does anyone here know if the Wagner on the loudspeakers bit is 
based in reality.

And John, I know that there's more than one verse to the Star Spangled 
Banner! It's real short though: "Play Ball!"

:-P

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 13:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed May  1 12:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEIMGPAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3CD0481F.7000808@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John-Martin wrote:
> "I'd like you all to meet my evilish twin"
> 
> "I'd like you all to meet my goodish twin."
> 
> Is it just me or is this lacking in closure somehow?

That's why I support human cloning. I want an evil twin too!

I can't haiku ("bless you") but howsabout a koan:

"Does a man without a twin know whether he is evil or good?"
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 14:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Wed May  1 13:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] THUDD ideas - Exploration Cruiser
Message-ID: <F2527GjHnJ8Gw3RBF7R00006761@hotmail.com>

OK, I've been watching too much _Enterprise_.

How about a design for a mid-tech (say, 12?), long range
independent exploration cruiser?

Mission profile:
* 1+ year endurance (with wilderness refueling).
* Jump-3.
* Capable of adequately defending itself against
  TL9- military forces and TL 12- paramilitary forces.
* Enhanced sensors & electronics.
* Extensive on-board laboratory facilities.
* Reasonable complement of small craft and
  ship's vehicles to facilitate survey & contact
  operations.
* Accomodations for scientists, survey specialists,
  and other mission personnel (20+).
* Cargo capacity sufficient to support endurance
  requirements, with sufficient extra capacity to
  carry sample trade goods to newly-contacted
  planets and return samples and specimens from
  such planets.

Such a vessel would operate for the government of
a planet or small multi-world polity, going beyond
the local stellar neighborhood and beyond the
boundries of well-known space.  Following up on
legends, trader's tales and other snippets of
information, this ship would be expected to enter
unexplored star systems and perform preliminary
surveys and formal first contact (recontact?)
missions.

I like CT/HG2 rules myself.  Some questions to
be answered for such a design:

How big is too big?  Too small should be easy
to find, but at what point does a bigger size
cross from prudence into excess?

Are backup systems a good idea?  For example, which
would most increase the ship's chances of coming back
safely, two power plants or a single, more capable one?

Are 20-ish people (plus ship crew pulling survey duty)
enough for the stated mission, too many, or not enough?

Just some food for thought...the voyage of such a ship
might make a fine scenario generator.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 14:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  1 13:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP trade codes
Message-ID: <20020501.131753.-97305.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Peter

On Wed, 1 May 2002 13:35:45 +0100 "Peter L.S. Trevor"
<ptrevor@rctrevor.com> writes:
> 
> Okay, I just checked and both "Ag" and "In" are not *necessarily*
> net exporters.  But  "Na"  and  "Ni"  *are*  net  importers.  The
> references are CT Book 3 p16:
> 
>     "Non-agricultural worlds must import much of their foodstuffs
>     from off planet."  (... but it does go on to say  that  there
>     may be locally produced synthetics.)
> 
>     "Non-industrial worlds are forced to  import  much  of  their
>     finished goods."
> 
> Regards PLST

Ok, a question then:
If a system is red, it's there for one of any number of reasons right?
1. Gov and Law too high.
2. Type X starport.
3. The Emperor's private vacation resort.
4. Secret base.
5. Special mining facility.
Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Due to variables as these would the power that made the system a red zone
not maintain it?
I would import or export as per the powers who ordered it red.

What the codes reflect should be defined in a short writeup in said
system whether or not civilian, military, or private trade in present.

At least that's my opinion.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed May  1 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <3CD0481F.7000808@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEJGGPAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Me, My clone and I
Side by side in harmony
each an evil wannabe

Twaining to be eviler
That Bioplast that is just like me
Luke, trust in the Force.

Dulinor:  Bang, Shoot
Strephon:  Aurgh, then he dies
So boom goes Empire three.

Strephon had a clone
So what, It's not 50 feet
nor Zentrad ... Squoosh

What the world needs is a good
Robotech / Traveller Crossover.
Gall Force, now that works

jml

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
:
:
snippee snippee
:
:

I can't haiku ("bless you") but howsabout a koan:

"Does a man without a twin know whether he is evil or good?"
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 14:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  1 13:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
Message-ID: <20020501.133621.-97305.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Bruce

On Wed, 01 May 2002 12:55:11 -0700 Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>
> "Does a man without a twin know whether he is evil or good?"
> -- Depends...

If married - Ask wife.

If dating - Ask girlfriend.

If still at home - Ask mom.

If your names Dave - Ask HAL.

For all others - Ask yourself in front of a mirror, and wait for a reply.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 14:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed May  1 13:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP trade codes
In-Reply-To: <20020501.131753.-97305.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEJIGPAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Uhm

I think the Imperium indirect, the TAS Red Zones.  Most
people tend to use the TAS as a Michelin's guide to the Imperium
and ascribe a certain amount credence that canonically it doesn't
have.

jml





Peter

On Wed, 1 May 2002 13:35:45 +0100 "Peter L.S. Trevor"
<ptrevor@rctrevor.com> writes:
> 
> Okay, I just checked and both "Ag" and "In" are not *necessarily*
> net exporters.  But  "Na"  and  "Ni"  *are*  net  importers.  The
> references are CT Book 3 p16:
> 
>     "Non-agricultural worlds must import much of their foodstuffs
>     from off planet."  (... but it does go on to say  that  there
>     may be locally produced synthetics.)
> 
>     "Non-industrial worlds are forced to  import  much  of  their
>     finished goods."
> 
> Regards PLST

Ok, a question then:
If a system is red, it's there for one of any number of reasons right?
1. Gov and Law too high.
2. Type X starport.
3. The Emperor's private vacation resort.
4. Secret base.
5. Special mining facility.
Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Due to variables as these would the power that made the system a red zone
not maintain it?
I would import or export as per the powers who ordered it red.

What the codes reflect should be defined in a short writeup in said
system whether or not civilian, military, or private trade in present.

At least that's my opinion.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
_______________________________________________
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TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 14:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed May  1 13:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP trade codes
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEJIGPAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEJIGPAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

interdicts,  stupid spell checker

jml
I prefer to refer to my spelling as creative



Uhm

I think the Imperium indirect, the TAS Red Zones.  Most
people tend to use the TAS as a Michelin's guide to the Imperium
and ascribe a certain amount credence that canonically it doesn't
have.

jml





Peter

On Wed, 1 May 2002 13:35:45 +0100 "Peter L.S. Trevor"
<ptrevor@rctrevor.com> writes:
> 
> Okay, I just checked and both "Ag" and "In" are not *necessarily*
> net exporters.  But  "Na"  and  "Ni"  *are*  net  importers.  The
> references are CT Book 3 p16:
> 
>     "Non-agricultural worlds must import much of their foodstuffs
>     from off planet."  (... but it does go on to say  that  there
>     may be locally produced synthetics.)
> 
>     "Non-industrial worlds are forced to  import  much  of  their
>     finished goods."
> 
> Regards PLST

Ok, a question then:
If a system is red, it's there for one of any number of reasons right?
1. Gov and Law too high.
2. Type X starport.
3. The Emperor's private vacation resort.
4. Secret base.
5. Special mining facility.
Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Due to variables as these would the power that made the system a red zone
not maintain it?
I would import or export as per the powers who ordered it red.

What the codes reflect should be defined in a short writeup in said
system whether or not civilian, military, or private trade in present.

At least that's my opinion.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
_______________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 14:57:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed May  1 13:57:16 2002
Subject: [TML] THUDD ideas - Exploration Cruiser
In-Reply-To: <F2527GjHnJ8Gw3RBF7R00006761@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEJKGPAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

My reaction

It has too small a mission crew.
CT doesn't have a good way to abstract the
scientific portion of the mission
What is the planned operation distance from base?
(This affects you spares and limp home vs. 
more capabily question)
At the high end of too much, a fleet of less
capable ships might bear looking into.
You might take a look at jump 2 and Jump Fuel 3 or
even 4

jml


To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] THUDD ideas - Exploration Cruiser


OK, I've been watching too much _Enterprise_.

How about a design for a mid-tech (say, 12?), long range
independent exploration cruiser?

Mission profile:
* 1+ year endurance (with wilderness refueling).
* Jump-3.
* Capable of adequately defending itself against
  TL9- military forces and TL 12- paramilitary forces.
* Enhanced sensors & electronics.
* Extensive on-board laboratory facilities.
* Reasonable complement of small craft and
  ship's vehicles to facilitate survey & contact
  operations.
* Accomodations for scientists, survey specialists,
  and other mission personnel (20+).
* Cargo capacity sufficient to support endurance
  requirements, with sufficient extra capacity to
  carry sample trade goods to newly-contacted
  planets and return samples and specimens from
  such planets.

Such a vessel would operate for the government of
a planet or small multi-world polity, going beyond
the local stellar neighborhood and beyond the
boundries of well-known space.  Following up on
legends, trader's tales and other snippets of
information, this ship would be expected to enter
unexplored star systems and perform preliminary
surveys and formal first contact (recontact?)
missions.

I like CT/HG2 rules myself.  Some questions to
be answered for such a design:

How big is too big?  Too small should be easy
to find, but at what point does a bigger size
cross from prudence into excess?

Are backup systems a good idea?  For example, which
would most increase the ship's chances of coming back
safely, two power plants or a single, more capable one?

Are 20-ish people (plus ship crew pulling survey duty)
enough for the stated mission, too many, or not enough?

Just some food for thought...the voyage of such a ship
might make a fine scenario generator.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 15:16:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed May  1 14:16:24 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <20020430.172641.-125169.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEJLGPAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I hope this may help

http://www.etriloquist.com/alslinks.html

jml



Robert

On 30 Apr 2002 17:49:40 -0600 ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com writes:
>  >
> > > Do you use any accessibility tools?
> > 
> > No, no one's showed me how.
> 
> You should def. ask around.  They can really make life easier when
> typing's a chore.
>  
> On Macs & Windows, there's a control panel which gives one that sort
> of option.

I use Windows, I'll need to test it.

> I imagine that using a mouse is Right Out for you.  

No, on the contrary, the mouse I use best. That is - once I get my arm up
onto the desk. Copy and paste is my best action.

Thanks,

Now where'd I leave my grav-belt?

Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 15:20:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed May  1 14:20:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Biter landgrabbee stuff
Message-ID: <3CD05B56.30F0F3F8@mail.cswnet.com>

>I've been doing some thinking about my
>Biter landgrab (to my annoyance, a number
>of things I had planned won't work)

Ain't that the gospel truth. I wonder how many landgrab ideas have bit
the dust over time.

<snippage>
>50,000-ton Biter High-class , Aleph (TL10)

Very nicely organized. Alot better than what I've been slapping
together. I notice you went with standard compartmentalization. I was
gonna go with Total comp on my downport right up until I discovered the
cost. It would take several decades to get the friggin thing built and
I'm already overbudget with the construction. 

Have you already done the downport? Or is that coming?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 15:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May  1 14:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <200205012122.FKQ00261@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
>Does anyone here know if the Wagner on the loudspeakers bit 
>is based in reality.
>

If you are at Ft. Campbell, there is a smaller post on-post 
for the Cav. They have loudspeakers that play the music 
there.  Don't know if they have the speakers on their 
helicopters, though.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 15:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed May  1 14:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205012106070.15597-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <008201c1f15a$e6aa0fa0$879593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> > If I had an evil twin, nobody would notice the difference....
> 
> But if _you_ are the evil twin and the nice one is somewhere missing?

He is. I know where - and I'm not telling.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 16:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed May  1 15:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] just a test
Message-ID: <3CD068E8.BE94B082@attbi.com>

broke mac8nses and all


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 16:21:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Wed May  1 15:21:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Sorry to waste the bandwidth, but...
Message-ID: <RELAY1LAhXlHCSO2H4y0000692d@relay1.softcomca.com>

Would Glenn Goffin, Bruce Johnson, Mark Urbin, Larsen E. Whipsnade,
and Derek Wildstar please send me e-mail privately (at the address
shown below.) I have a request to make.  Thanks!

    - Mark C.
      markc@peak.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 16:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed May  1 15:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
References: <200205012122.FKQ00261@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD06AD8.20105@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Bruce Johnson says
> 
>>Does anyone here know if the Wagner on the loudspeakers bit 
>>is based in reality.
>>
> 
> 
> If you are at Ft. Campbell, there is a smaller post on-post 
> for the Cav. They have loudspeakers that play the music 
> there.  Don't know if they have the speakers on their 
> helicopters, though.

And by now, do they play it because they did in the war or because they 
'did' in 'Apocalypse Now'?

Sort of like the cops mentioning after the 'Godfather', 'Goodfellas', 
and more recently 'The Sopranos' that all the mobsters had suddenly 
started acting like their movie counterparts...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 16:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May  1 15:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <200205012234.FKS02201@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>  asks
>And by now, do they play it because they did in the war or 
>because they 'did' in 'Apocalypse Now'?
>

I think after the movie. They also wear those old Cavalry 
uniforms to certain functions. 
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 16:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed May  1 15:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Men of Harlech
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>ObTrav: Aside from filk, which tends to be humorous, or 
>silly, is there any really stirring filk to be had on a par 
>with "Men of Harlech"?  Perhaps "Men of Deneb" with suitably 
>altered words?

That's "Sophonts of Deneb" to you, pinkmonkeyboy.

--Ve Rrafroughz
(civilian advisor to Mongo National Guard)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 16:57:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed May  1 15:57:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <memo.38062@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B8F4A4BE.5908C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

For many years, I was a member of (and Journal Editor for) the 'Corps of 
Drums Society' which seeks to promote and preserve drum & fife (and bugle) 
music. When I passed on the Editorial torch (i.e., copy of Pagemaker!), 
they presented me with a print of a Coldstream Guards drummer of 1832 :-)

The Welsh National Anthem is a fine piece to sing... if I ever get the 
opportunity to meet with you I'll sing it for you :-)

"Mae hen gwlad fan hadu, an an wylu me...."

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 17:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed May  1 16:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
References: <20020501141341.16706.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CD0747B.DEB61D7B@premier.net>


Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> OK, here is the deal.  I really enjoyed THUDD.

<<snip>>
> 
> Here is what I need from the TML:
> 
> 1.  Is anyone interested in this?

Yes.

> 2.  What design systems should be supported?

Well, I design using FF&S2, so I'd like to see that supported.

> 3.  What ships would you like to see?

I'm pretty flexible.  OTOH, I'm also fond of designing warships....

> 4.  Would anyone else be willing to help out?

In what way?

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 17:25:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed May  1 16:25:15 2002
Subject: [TML] THUDD ideas - Exploration Cruiser
References: <F2527GjHnJ8Gw3RBF7R00006761@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD07941.C66BA2F2@premier.net>


Walt Smith wrote:
> 
> OK, I've been watching too much _Enterprise_.
> 
> How about a design for a mid-tech (say, 12?), long range
> independent exploration cruiser?

The big question is, how do you define "cruiser?"

After all, there's quite a bit of difference between a
_Broadsword_-class Mercenary Cruiser and a _Tuscaloosa_ or _Gran
Fenwick-class cruiser.

http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html

In general, when I hear the word "cruiser" in connection with Traveller,
I think of spinal-mount-equipped ships in the 20,000 - 75,000 dton
range.

Note also that, as I haven't seen any episodes of _Enterprise_, I have
no idea how large that ship is, nor what her capabilities are.
> 
> Mission profile:
> * 1+ year endurance (with wilderness refueling).
> * Jump-3.
> * Capable of adequately defending itself against
>   TL9- military forces and TL 12- paramilitary forces.
> * Enhanced sensors & electronics.
> * Extensive on-board laboratory facilities.
> * Reasonable complement of small craft and
>   ship's vehicles to facilitate survey & contact
>   operations.
> * Accomodations for scientists, survey specialists,
>   and other mission personnel (20+).
> * Cargo capacity sufficient to support endurance
>   requirements, with sufficient extra capacity to
>   carry sample trade goods to newly-contacted
>   planets and return samples and specimens from
>   such planets.
> 
> Such a vessel would operate for the government of
> a planet or small multi-world polity, going beyond
> the local stellar neighborhood and beyond the
> boundries of well-known space.  Following up on
> legends, trader's tales and other snippets of
> information, this ship would be expected to enter
> unexplored star systems and perform preliminary
> surveys and formal first contact (recontact?)
> missions.
> 
> I like CT/HG2 rules myself.  Some questions to
> be answered for such a design:
> 
> How big is too big?  Too small should be easy
> to find, but at what point does a bigger size
> cross from prudence into excess?

For this mission profile, 1,000,000 dtons or larger can reasonably be
considered excessive. ;-)
> 
> Are backup systems a good idea?  For example, which
> would most increase the ship's chances of coming back
> safely, two power plants or a single, more capable one?
> 
> Are 20-ish people (plus ship crew pulling survey duty)
> enough for the stated mission, too many, or not enough?

Lots of "that depends" in there.  20 Scouts, pulled from both
Exploration and Survey branches, sounds like a reasonable detachment for
either a cruiser (as in warship) with an additional exploration/first
contact mission or a smaller, dedicated exploration vessel with some
weapons capability (a _Donosev_ on steroids).

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 17:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed May  1 16:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
References: <20020501.133621.-97305.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CD07B66.99BF6809@premier.net>


generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Bruce
> 
> On Wed, 01 May 2002 12:55:11 -0700 Bruce Johnson
> <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> >
> > "Does a man without a twin know whether he is evil or good?"
> > -- Depends...
> 
> If married - Ask wife.
> 
> If dating - Ask girlfriend.
> 
> If still at home - Ask mom.
> 
> If your names Dave - Ask HAL.
> 
> For all others - Ask yourself in front of a mirror, and wait for a reply.

If you can bear to look at yourself in a mirror, you're probably either
good enough that your conscience doesn't bother you too much or
sufficiently evil that your conscience sits, unused, in a small,
dust-covered box under your bed.

If you're a US Army interrogator, both may well be true simultaneously.
;-)

http://msnbc.com/news/743825.asp?pne=msn&cp1=1

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 17:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed May  1 16:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <3CD07B66.99BF6809@premier.net>
References: <20020501.133621.-97305.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020501164902.009fec50@mindspring.com>

At 06:33 PM 5/1/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > For all others - Ask yourself in front of a mirror, and wait for a reply.
>
>If you can bear to look at yourself in a mirror, you're probably either
>good enough that your conscience doesn't bother you too much or
>sufficiently evil that your conscience sits, unused, in a small,
>dust-covered box under your bed.

What about me?  I don't reflect in mirrors?

>If you're a US Army interrogator, both may well be true simultaneously.
>;-)

If you're in the Army, it doesn't matter.. you have no soul, being a 
brainwashed killer.  (I was told this by a very earnest young woman in 
Berkeley the other day.  The look on her face when I asked why she was 
risking life and limb by angering a soulless killer was worthy the lecture.)


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 18:01:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed May  1 17:01:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020501164902.009fec50@mindspring.com>
References: <3CD07B66.99BF6809@premier.net>
 <20020501.133621.-97305.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020501195926.020f47b0@192.168.0.1>

At 04:51 PM 5/1/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 06:33 PM 5/1/02 -0500, you wrote:
>> > For all others - Ask yourself in front of a mirror, and wait for a reply.
>>If you can bear to look at yourself in a mirror, you're probably either
>>good enough that your conscience doesn't bother you too much or
>>sufficiently evil that your conscience sits, unused, in a small,
>>dust-covered box under your bed.
>What about me?  I don't reflect in mirrors?
>>If you're a US Army interrogator, both may well be true simultaneously.
>>;-)
>If you're in the Army, it doesn't matter.. you have no soul, being a 
>brainwashed killer.  (I was told this by a very earnest young woman in 
>Berkeley the other day.  The look on her face when I asked why she was 
>risking life and limb by angering a soulless killer was worthy the lecture.)

Fornicating priceless...


----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 18:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May  1 17:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
Message-ID: <200205020002.FKU03572@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>If you're in the Army, it doesn't matter.. you have no soul, 
>being a brainwashed killer.  (I was told this by a very 
>earnest young woman in Berkeley the other day.  The look on 
>her face when I asked why she was risking life and limb by 
>angering a soulless killer was worthy the lecture.)
>

A few months in the hot sun of Columbus, Georgia will turn 
anyone that way.  I heartily recommend the experience.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 18:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  1 17:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <20020501.171931.-121013.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Wed, 01 May 2002 14:06:02 -0700 John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
writes:
> I hope this may help
> 
> http://www.etriloquist.com/alslinks.html
> 
> jml

Yes, it does, thanks...

Now if I can just get a new sound card, mine doesn't work at all.

Gee, is it this bad in the Imperium?

I guess I'll just get a brain transplant.

No wait! I can't! The blasted brain's on back order again!

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 18:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  1 17:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <20020501.133621.-97305.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20020501205304.00e45e88@buffnet.net>

At 01:36 PM 5/1/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Bruce
>
>On Wed, 01 May 2002 12:55:11 -0700 Bruce Johnson
><johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>>
>> "Does a man without a twin know whether he is evil or good?"
>> -- Depends...
>
>If married - Ask wife.
>
>If dating - Ask girlfriend.
>
>If still at home - Ask mom.
>
>If your names Dave - Ask HAL.

I can't open the bay Doors Dave.  You are wearing a T-shirt that my
programmers decreed could not be vented to space.  I must protect you at
all costs without jeapardizing my true mission of hamstringing everyone
else.  Dave?  Please take off the shirt - it will make things easier for
me.  Dave?


       Hal 

PS - I really do lip read  ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 18:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed May  1 17:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20020501205304.00e45e88@buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGELBGPAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

And from our prospective you are stuffed in the computer too


:
:
:
       Hal 

PS - I really do lip read  ;)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 19:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed May  1 18:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] reloading example
Message-ID: <00e601c1f176$bb40b6e0$a15d8690@computer>

Leonard Erickson
> Well, there's always "Fairly Honest Don's Machine Gun Parlor" out in
> Hillsboro.

Which is actually a really good name for a shop.  So good, in fact, that you
couldn't use it in a Traveller game, because your players would think you
are being silly!

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 19:11:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed May  1 18:11:25 2002
Subject: [TML] A Challenge
Message-ID: <00e501c1f176$ba913d00$a15d8690@computer>

> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> You streamlined you ships computer to access by voice command.
> You've been in a nasty bar-fight.
> Your face is all swollen from the bar stool that fractured your jaw.
> Sure, medical patched you up ok, but your speech is slurred by both your
> wounds and Scout brew.
> The ship won't open the hatch, now what?

Well, it depends if the clay amulet "I" wear round my neck is still there.
It's where I hide the data-crystal.  The ship's computer can read it.
Alternatively, my companion bot can communicate with it.  That's what she's
for, apart from acting as an expendable set of remote sensors.

"I" being my "standard PC", of course.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 19:11:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed May  1 18:11:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
References: <20020501080907.14C81279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00e701c1f176$bbe0ee80$a15d8690@computer>

> From: John Groth
> Of course, had they played "MacArthur Park" (the Richard Harris
> version), there would have been mass surrenders by the hostiles [*],
> followed immediately by mass arrests of US Special Forces personnel for
> war crimes.... ;-)
>
> [*] Either that, or the aliens' braincases would have exploded.

On an _entirely_ unrelated note, "Mars Attacks" was on TV here again on the
weekend....  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 19:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed May  1 18:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Line Editor Haikus
References: <20020501013413.D20E2279D0@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00e801c1f176$bc7f9f80$a15d8690@computer>

> From: "MJ Dougherty" 
> New game book is out
> QuikLink needs publicity
> Asked the List for help
> 
> Many replies came
> People wanting freebie book
> Mailbox is now full

Hmm.  Well, it ain't science, so it must be art...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


























From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 19:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed May  1 18:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
References: <20020501190110.14D42279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00ea01c1f176$bdd6f220$a15d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> "Ride of the Valkyrie" from Apocalypse Now.  Stunning sequence.  In fact,
> when I started riding in Hueys in my army career, I always had that
> sequence in mind..

It is definitely untrue that Australian troops sang "We're off to see the
Wizard" when they were attacking Bardia in 1940.

Apparently the British media reported that they did.  This seems to have
been a case of a soldier talking to a journalist... : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 19:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed May  1 18:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The martians are coming...
Message-ID: <3CD0941F.83B08251@mail.cswnet.com>

>NRC Study Urges Caution About Possible Dangerous                      >Martian Life
<snippage>
>The National Research Council (NRC) is recommending that safety take >precedence and that missions to the Red Planet try to avoid
>encountering any possible life forms there. 

The martians are coming!

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/ap_mars_020501.html

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 19:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed May  1 18:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] If Yesterday Was Camerone Day, Today Must Be...
Message-ID: <3CD099ED.19017BB9@premier.net>

...the appropriate day to post the following message:

This is Free Trader Beowulf,
calling anyone...
Mayday, Mayday...we are under attack...
main drive is gone...
turret number one not responding...
Mayday...losing cabin pressure fast...
calling anyone...please help...
This is Free Trader Beowulf...
		Mayday...


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 20:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed May  1 19:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scheduled Chat on Brubek's
Message-ID: <3CD09EDF.8D05AE82@premier.net>

FYI:

The scheduled chat on Brubek's, featuring Line Editor Jon Zeigler and
Senior Line Editor Loren Wiseman, kicked off a few minutes ago.  Plenty
of good seats left!


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 20:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed May  1 19:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Men of Harlech
In-Reply-To: <200205011613.FKE09967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200205011613.FKE09967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <no71du0goimnjt18t1p0e2jnlf466e69ev@4ax.com>

On Wed, 1 May 2002 12:13:31 -0400, "John T. Kwon"
<jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>ObTrav: Aside from filk, which tends to be humorous, or=20
>silly, is there any really stirring filk to be had on a par=20
>with "Men of Harlech"?  Perhaps "Men of Deneb" with suitably=20
>altered words?

I don't think that you've been exposed to the wide variety of filk.
While the filk you may hear at conventions is often humorous or light
in tone, it by no means is an overwhelming majority.

Non-professional filk can be very serious and moving (writer humbly
points to his spouse's "Everyman" by Mary Jean Holmes).  Back in the
day we were able to gather a small but very talented group of
writers/performers and have an annual Ose-off (as in Ose, ose and
morose) with more than 4 hours of increasingly grim songs of beings
under fire and worse.

And, let us not forget those more modern writers who carried on the
traditions of Kipling and included songs in their stories.  Both Poul
Anderson and Gordon Dickson commonly did so to great effect.  In
particular, I would like to call your attention to Dickson's Dorsai
stories, many of which prominently featured songs sung by fighting
men.  I'm probably mangling the lyrics badly with my faulty memory,
but I offer the following song sung by the Friendlies (a religious
monoculture in Dickson's Dorsai stories which, strapped for other
means of generating hard currency, hired out their youth as
inexpensive alternatives to the professional mercenaries, the Dorsai):

Soldier, ask not - now, or ever,
Where to war your banners go.
Anarch's legions all surround us.
Strike - and do not count the blow!

Glory, honor, praise and profit,
Are but toys of tinsel worth.
Render up your work, unasking,
Leave the human clay to earth.

Blood and sorrow, pain unending,
Are the portion of us all.
Grasp the naked sword, opposing,
Gladly in the battle fall.

So shall we, anointed soldiers,
Stand at last before the Throne,
Baptized in our wounds, red-flowing,
Sealed unto our Lord - alone!


--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 20:57:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (n2sami)
Date: Wed May  1 19:57:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
In-Reply-To: <20020501141341.16706.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001901c1f184$f3aea290$2f7de40c@loki>

>Here is what I need from the TML:
>
>1.  Is anyone interested in this?
>2.  What design systems should be supported?
>3.  What ships would you like to see?
>4.  Would anyone else be willing to help out?

Waking from a temporary LURKER FIT and...

Answering on behalf of the TML
(Ah, have I over stepped my authority?)

1. Consider this a statement of interest in THUDD.
2. If we make the ship specification high level any rules set.
3. All and any over an extended length of time
4. Depends on what help is needed


---peace---
Views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you expect?
<mailto:n2sami@attbi.com>   <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/traveller>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 21:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed May  1 20:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] THUDD ideas - Exploration Cruiser
In-Reply-To: <F2527GjHnJ8Gw3RBF7R00006761@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1f185$fc9b38e0$0b01a8c0@duck>

There have been two "canon" submission for this job.

The first is the Leviathan from Adventure 4.  At 1800 dtons,
it is a bit small for what you are looking for, but is probably
a good starting point.  If you delete the backup manuever and
jump drives, and up-gun it to use all 18 hardpoints, it actually
becomes useful.  When "rationalized", it has a crew of about
36 and is able to carry about 10 specialists.  

The second is the "scout" version of the Azhanti High Lightening.
At 60k dtons, it actually is a cruiser, and is well armed (though
I would put the missle bays back in).  Also, since it is so big,
you can probably put however many specialists on it you want.
(Its crew is anywhere from 400 - 600.)

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 21:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed May  1 20:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <3CD0481F.7000808@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020502031704.E499027990@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/01/02 at 12:55 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>John-Martin wrote:
>> "I'd like you all to meet my evilish twin"
>> 
>> "I'd like you all to meet my goodish twin."
>> 
>> Is it just me or is this lacking in closure somehow?

>That's why I support human cloning. I want an evil twin too!

>I can't haiku ("bless you") but howsabout a koan:

>"Does a man without a twin know whether he is evil or good?" 

How about an ice-cream koan?

"Is ice-cream without chocolate, too vanilla?"

Speaking of tee-shirts, though...did you notice Marc only sells one
size? To quote a cult classic, "One size does *not* fit all!"

Eris,
    one ice-cream koan larger than Large
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 21:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Wed May  1 20:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
In-Reply-To: <200205012122.FKQ00261@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020502034030.32288.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>

> Bruce Johnson says
> >Does anyone here know if the Wagner on the
> loudspeakers bit is based in reality.
> 

Don't know if it is, but I have a couple of tangents. 
I flew Hueys in the Guard for 13 years (84-97), and in
my first few years I flew with a LOT of VN vets (12 of
15 in my 1st platoon).  

First, the rest of the stuff with the Cav in the movie
was typical - the bugles, hats, paint jobs, cards,
etc.

Second, I had a pilot swear that the success of Star
Trek was due to its playing on Armed Forces TV in SVN
('69 on).  It was on TV every afternoon.  The crews
would go fly, return to their base (semi-permanent
tents), and watch Kirk & gang. Its rerun popularity
started in SVN.

Third (and my favorite), I was flying a lift mission
over Ft McCoy, WI early one morning.  I was trail in a
15-ship infantry insertion.  90-knots, 50 feet.  Sun
coming up.  Radio silence.  Going into a potential
"hot" LZ.  And somebody broke over the radio: "Good
Morning Fort McCoy!"... then someone else broke in:
"It's Chicken Man, He's Everywhere, he's everywhere!" 
Now I know who Chicken Man is, but my PIC was laughing
hard and I didn't know why.  I asked, and he said that
Armed Forces Radio in SVN would always have Chicken
Man on right after they started their morning show;
someone had noted the resemblance to 'Nam with the
early mission et al and chimed in over the radio. 

Bottom line: I wouldn't be surprised if the Wagner
really happened.

Scott

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 21:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed May  1 20:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
In-Reply-To: <20020502034030.32288.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200205012122.FKQ00261@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020501234618.00cb8bb8@192.168.0.1>

At 08:40 PM 5/1/2002 -0700, Scott Ayres wrote:
[snip]
>Third (and my favorite), I was flying a lift mission
>over Ft McCoy, WI early one morning.  I was trail in a
>15-ship infantry insertion.  90-knots, 50 feet.  Sun
>coming up.  Radio silence.  Going into a potential
>"hot" LZ.  And somebody broke over the radio: "Good
>Morning Fort McCoy!"... then someone else broke in:
>"It's Chicken Man, He's Everywhere, he's everywhere!"
>Now I know who Chicken Man is, but my PIC was laughing
>hard and I didn't know why.  I asked, and he said that
>Armed Forces Radio in SVN would always have Chicken
>Man on right after they started their morning show;
>someone had noted the resemblance to 'Nam with the
>early mission et al and chimed in over the radio.

Wow...Chicken Man.  I remember listening to that on SCN (Southern Command 
Network) Radio when I was a kid in the early 70's.



-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Whether you're Bill Clinton or the head of a large
corporation like Enron, it seems the best defense
in any legal matter is to act like you just arrived
on the planet." -- Spencer F. Katt
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 21:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  1 20:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
Message-ID: <85.1afe32c1.2a0212cf@aol.com>

--part1_85.1afe32c1.2a0212cf_boundary
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Scott Ayres writes:
> Second, I had a pilot swear that the success of Star
> Trek was due to its playing on Armed Forces TV in SVN
> ('69 on).  It was on TV every afternoon.  The crews
> would go fly, return to their base (semi-permanent
> tents), and watch Kirk & gang. Its rerun popularity
> started in SVN.

I even heard a story once that indicated that some of the Viet Cong not
only watched Star Trek, but may have not quite grasped that it was fiction.

Apparently there was a Captain (Pierre) Kirk in the US Army at the time,
and he and some of his subordinates used character names from the
series for call signs. One day he was about to launch an attack on a VC
position. He switched his radio over to a frequency known to be used by
the VC, and said something like: "Attention Viet Cong. This is Captain Kirk
of the USS Enterprise. You have five minutes to surrender or we will open
fire with our forward phaser batteries."

Suddenly there was a flood of excited Vietnamese chatter, and when his
men advanced they found the VC abandoning their positions.

Source: the foreword to one of the James Blish novelizations of Trek scripts,
published back in the early 1970s. I don't recall which one. Others will know
better than I how much credence to put in it, but *I* think it was a neat 
story.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_85.1afe32c1.2a0212cf_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Scott Ayres writes:
<BR>&gt; Second, I had a pilot swear that the success of Star
<BR>&gt; Trek was due to its playing on Armed Forces TV in SVN
<BR>&gt; ('69 on). &nbsp;It was on TV every afternoon. &nbsp;The crews
<BR>&gt; would go fly, return to their base (semi-permanent
<BR>&gt; tents), and watch Kirk &amp; gang. Its rerun popularity
<BR>&gt; started in SVN.
<BR>
<BR>I even heard a story once that indicated that some of the Viet Cong not
<BR>only watched Star Trek, but may have not quite grasped that it was fiction.
<BR>
<BR>Apparently there was a Captain (Pierre) Kirk in the US Army at the time,
<BR>and he and some of his subordinates used character names from the
<BR>series for call signs. One day he was about to launch an attack on a VC
<BR>position. He switched his radio over to a frequency known to be used by
<BR>the VC, and said something like: "Attention Viet Cong. This is Captain Kirk
<BR>of the USS Enterprise. You have five minutes to surrender or we will open
<BR>fire with our forward phaser batteries."
<BR>
<BR>Suddenly there was a flood of excited Vietnamese chatter, and when his
<BR>men advanced they found the VC abandoning their positions.
<BR>
<BR>Source: the foreword to one of the James Blish novelizations of Trek scripts,
<BR>published back in the early 1970s. I don't recall which one. Others will know
<BR>better than I how much credence to put in it, but *I* think it was a neat story.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_85.1afe32c1.2a0212cf_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 22:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed May  1 21:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <20020502031704.E499027990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMENMDMAA.tml@downport.com>

When your wife comes home with 100 large, black polo-shirts, what do _you_
do?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Eris Reddoch
>
> Speaking of tee-shirts, though...did you notice Marc only sells one
> size? To quote a cult classic, "One size does *not* fit all!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 23:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed May  1 22:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Review of Traveller's Aid #1: Personal Weapons of Known Space
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020502010209.01b5d908@mail.charter.net>

This is one of several reviews on this product from our friends at Quiklink.
One I've seen covers some aspects in detail, so I'm going to try and not 
cover the same ground.

Rather than review the contents in detail, as other reviews have done, I'm 
going to focus on what caught my eye.

This supplement is not for the experienced group of Traveller players 
looking to outfit their TL C-F Mercenary unit.  Armor isn't covered, nor is 
crew served weapons.  This focuses on what the individual players would be 
carrying and just as important, why they would be carrying it.  It has, 
what is in my opinion, a rather sensible discussion on the pros and cons of 
different types of weapons and their uses.  For example, "For self-defense, 
handguns are the best"; or "Rifles are the longarm of choice for most 
users."  It also gives example of why each is suited for it's intended 
role.  There is also details on the different types of pistols (holdouts, 
Magnum revolvers, semi-automatics, etc.) and rifles (carbines, assault 
rifles, ACR, Gauss, etc.) and the pros and cons between those.

This level of written detail is very helpful for the role player without 
much (or any) experience in firearms to select the weapons that suits their 
character and the campaign.  It's easier to get flavor from the written 
details than the charts.  To use the example from RPG humor about the 'Real 
Men', 'Real RolePlayers', and 'Munchkins', the Real Men will already know 
that they want Magnum handguns and Gauss Rifles, the Munchkins will just 
scan the charts for what does the most damage, but the Real Roleplayer 
who's used to rapiers and longbows will really appreciate the detailed 
descriptions of the weapons and their uses.

Personal weapons other than firearms are covered.  The broad categories 
are: melee, non-lethal, and Zero-G.  These are covered in the same detail 
as the firearms.

The detail to non-lethal weapons are a nice addition.  While a proper 
application of high explosives (or a hail of 4mm Gauss rounds) will solve 
many problems, it's not always the best solution.  Detail is given to 
sprays, stun guns, Thud guns, batons, and others.

Melee weapon are covered in more detail than most Traveller rule sets I've 
seen. Given the d20 system's rich background in fantasy RPGs, this may have 
been a resource just too rich to ignore.  As someone who has been involved 
in the martial arts for many years, I did like the note that some weapons 
(like the ever popular Nunchaku) can easily keep attacking your foe if they 
take it and try to use it.

The section on swords and knives is well written.  It goes into the 
differences between a foil, a cutlass, and a light saber (light in weight, 
not like the ones Luke and his dad use). Detail not only given on the 
differences between the blades, but also who uses which type of 
blade.  Nobles carry foils, Marines have their cutlass, Army officers have 
their dress sabers, and Naval Officers have a slightly more robust foil (a 
nice touch that alludes to the Social Aspect of the Imperial Navy).

This also is one of the hidden treasures in this supplement.  It is 
casually mentioned that Imperial Nobles in the Year 0 era carried ornate 
Magnum Revolvers.  Large, powerful handguns, precision crafted, very 
practical and very deadly.  Centuries later, Nobles carry foils instead.  A 
more symbolic weapon and certain easier to carry around than a kilo and a 
half of steel on your hip.  From this the player can draw multiple 
conclusions. Two examples. Nobles in the old days were in more personal 
danger.  Nobles now days have more time on their hands (it takes a lot of 
training to become really dangerous with a foil).

One of the melee weapons that really caught my eye was the Boarding Axe.  A 
high tech weapon designed for deadly close quarters combat.  As a long time 
fan of Edward E. "Doc" Smith and his "Lensmen" series, I really enjoyed 
seeing this addition.  If you don't like the idea of the Imperial Marine 
Cutlass, then you won't like this.  If you like even a slight bit of Space 
Opera in your game, then the Boarding Axe is for you!

The Zero G weapons are the classic Traveller standbys, the Book 1 Lasers 
and the Book 4 Snub pistol and Accelerator rifle. The popular Snub SMG 
variant is also included.  One interesting note is that the Snub pistol is 
said to have a standard 'ball' cartridge.  In CT, the Snub pistol fired 
large caliber Tranq, Gas, HE & HEAP rounds at a very low muzzle 
velocity.  No mention of standard rounds in CT or MegaTraveller.  As far as 
I know, the first mention of solid slugs for Snub Pistols was in Traveller: 
The New Era, were Snub pistols had a much higher muzzle velocity than given 
in CT Book 4.

A quick note on readability.  Adobe Acrobat can be adjusted to fit a full 
page on your screen.  I found it easier to read it this way, rather than 
read 2/3s of the first column, page down, read the bottom third, page up, 
read the top 2/3s of the second column, page down to finish the page.  I 
also have a big monitor and good eyes.  Your mileage may vary.  I also 
downloaded the Adobe Acrobat view for Palm OS devices and loaded the file 
on my Palm i705.  The graphics won't display (including the artwork on 
various weapons scattered throughout the book) and the tables are a mess, 
but all the great detailing text was easily readable.

Even though the folks who make d20 Traveller put out this book, it also has 
all the CT stats for each weapon in addition to the d20 stats.  Weapons 
from Book 1, Book 4, and Striker (and probably a few other places, 
including T4) are all collected in one spot with all the nice charts and 
tables.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the
prosperity of a free state, the right of the people to
keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 23:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Wed May  1 22:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMENMDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205012207210.25058-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 2 May 2002, Swordy wrote:

> When your wife comes home with 100 large, black polo-shirts, what do _you_
> do?
> 
get an ebay account?

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  1 23:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  1 22:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
Message-ID: <20020501.223358.-1165.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Thu, 2 May 2002 00:29:54 -0400 "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> writes:
> When your wife comes home with 100 large, black polo-shirts, what do 
> _you_ do?

You take them down to a shop that can put an Imperial sunburst on each
one, then pass then out at the next Con.

Or mail them directly to me :~)

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May  1 23:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
In-Reply-To: <B8F53EC6.5915F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20501.224327.7F9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 5/1/02 1:31 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> I recall being impressed with a few of those, but lately I've been more
>> interested in "Bun-Bun". A 7,000 ton tank with a 16" gun that fires
>> APFSDS rounds that achieve near orbital velocities (and that have
>> enough antimatterinside to be approxinately 10 kiloton yield) tends to
>> grab your attention.
>> 
>> Well, ok, it's actually *not* a tank. Just a self propelled gun. They
>> add the armor (and, I suspect, *lots* of secondary armament) in the
>> next book.
>> 
>> I'm glad to see that I wasn't the only person to ever look at the
>> crawler they used to haul Saturn V rockets (and now Space Shuttles) out
>> to the pad and envisioned it with a battleship turret mounted on it.
>
> I think I prefer Keith Laumer's 'Bolos' .  For the honor of the regiment.

Sure, but other than the antimatter in the projectiles, there's no
"magic tech" involved in the SheVas.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 00:17:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May  1 23:17:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020501081448.026e9eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20501.224438.6o8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Speaking of MilSF, the next Honor Harrington book has been announced.
> "War of Honor" Due out in October.

We're up to chapter 13 in Baen's Bar. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 02:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu May  2 01:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] If Yesterday Was Camerone Day, Today Must Be...
References: <3CD099ED.19017BB9@premier.net>
Message-ID: <006501c1f1b3$3cb8d270$2f9493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> ...the appropriate day to post the following message:
> 
> This is Free Trader Beowulf,
> calling anyone...
> Mayday, Mayday...we are under attack...
> main drive is gone...
> turret number one not responding...
> Mayday...losing cabin pressure fast...
> calling anyone...please help...
> This is Free Trader Beowulf...
> Mayday...
> 


Awaargh. I thought about that, puzzled, for ages.

Then I got it.

Wish I hadn't bothered....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 03:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu May  2 02:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMENMDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEMDHLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Swordy wrote :
>
> When your wife comes home with 100 large, black
> polo-shirts, what do _you_ do?

Say "I thought you said you wouldn't wash the shorts for the
bowling club again?"

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 03:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu May  2 02:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] THUDD ideas - Exploration Cruiser
Message-ID: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B9F@KARPAD01>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Groth [mailto:wombat@premier.net]
> Sent: 02 May 2002 00:25
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] THUDD ideas - Exploration Cruiser
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Walt Smith wrote:
> > 
> > OK, I've been watching too much _Enterprise_.
> > 
> > How about a design for a mid-tech (say, 12?), long range
> > independent exploration cruiser?
> 
> The big question is, how do you define "cruiser?"
> 
> After all, there's quite a bit of difference between a
> _Broadsword_-class Mercenary Cruiser and a _Tuscaloosa_ or _Gran
> Fenwick-class cruiser.
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html
> 
> In general, when I hear the word "cruiser" in connection with 
> Traveller,
> I think of spinal-mount-equipped ships in the 20,000 - 75,000 dton
> range.

Well, why is a Wet Navy Cruiser called a cruiser... because it is
capable of being at sea a long time, and is powerful enough to defeat
anything smaller and faster than it is, or can run from anything bigger
and slower, thus can 'cruise' the oceans independently. So a cruiser is
any vessel capable of extended independent operations. If Naval it will
be expected to be armed sufficiently to almost automatically defeat
anything smaller than another cruiser, so a spinal mount is necessary,
which tend to Naval Cruisers being, as you say 20-75,000 dtons in
displacement... anything smaller can't fit a spinal mout effectively,
anything larger is probably capable of standing in the line of battle as
a battleship or dreadnaught.

Of course, a non-Naval 'Cruiser' will be smaller, as it is not expected
to carry a spinal mount. So a Scout 'Exploration Cruiser' might well be
in the 1,000-10,000 dton range, with good sensors, plenty of redundancy,
and a large Jump capability.

Matt

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 04:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu May  2 03:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDD?
References: <20020501141341.16706.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CD115E8.98A0637C@mindspring.com>

Paul Walker wrote:

> OK, here is the deal.  I really enjoyed THUDD.  I can
> see how design system wars would hurt it, but I don't
> think anyone will argue against having extra ships
> available.
>
> So, barring any objections I want to bring it back,
> only with a little different flavor.  More information
> later, but for now, suffice it to say It will contain
> more than just FF&S designs.
>
> Here is what I need from the TML:
>
> 1.  Is anyone interested in this?
> 2.  What design systems should be supported?
> 3.  What ships would you like to see?
> 4.  Would anyone else be willing to help out?
>
> OK, More later.
>
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

1. YES
2. MT,MT,MT,MT,MT,MT!!!!!!!!!!
3. All types.
4. I can throw up a bunch of designs I've done lately. ( That sounds
worse than it looks)

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The biggest difference between time and space is that you can't reuse
time.
            -Merrick Furst



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 04:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu May  2 03:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] reloading example
References: <00e601c1f176$bb40b6e0$a15d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CD119B9.C2A604E@mindspring.com>

Alan Bradley wrote:

> Leonard Erickson
> > Well, there's always "Fairly Honest Don's Machine Gun Parlor" out in
> > Hillsboro.
>
> Which is actually a really good name for a shop.  So good, in fact, that you
> couldn't use it in a Traveller game, because your players would think you
> are being silly!
>
> Alan Bradley
> abradley1@bigpond.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Au contraire, mon frare(sp)
Larsen was kind enough to give me a peek at the Grote Landgrab, and when I saw
the name I immediately opened the shop in Old town at Newport. Don carries TL11-
weapons of all varieties. Patrons are warned via signage that attempts to rob,
swindle, spindle or mutilate will be met with extreme force. The large hulking
security bot near the front door also growls "Watch it mate, don't crowd my gun
port" to all who enter.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The biggest difference between time and space is that you can't reuse
time.
            -Merrick Furst



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 05:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu May  2 04:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
References: <20020501153707.2C8F5279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD120E1.DE161855@earthlink.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade posted:

> that Vietnam-in-WW2 flick, "Kelly's Heroes".
>      For those of you who haven't seen the movie or cannot remember the
> scene; Donald Sutherland* leads a group of tankers who are decidedly odd,

Well, Sutherland's character _was_ named "Oddball".

The movie had a great line-up of stars: Clint Eastwood, Telly
Sellavas, Don Rickles, Donald Sutherland, Carroll O'Connor 
("Archie Bunker"), and Gavin MacLeod ("The Loveboat" captain).

It's a bit dated for those born in the late 70's or later, but
the movie's been a long-time source of one-liners for my gaming
adventures. One of my favorites is by Telly Sevalas who plays
the tough, protective sergeant: 

"If I hear any more threats against the Captain's life, or any
more rumors about going down to headquarters and assassinating
the General, or raping the nurses at the field hospital, I'm 
going to strangle the guy with my bare hands! Got it? When I
come back, I want this farm house looking like a night club.
Do you get that?"

He was talking to his own platoon.

The entire movie is filled with humor but is serious at the
same time about the fortunes of war. It's about regular guys
trying to make the best of a bad situation, not a bunch of 
muscle-bound hi-tech martial arts experts getting the babes.

If you have a chance to pick up the DVD, get it! Heck, buy the
video and a cheap VCR is that's all you can find. A true low-TL
Traveller movie if I ever saw one.


David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 05:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu May  2 04:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020501164902.009fec50@mindspring.com>
References: <3CD07B66.99BF6809@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CD1D08B.7889.755410@localhost>

On 1 May 2002 at 16:51, Douglas Berry wrote:

> If you're in the Army, it doesn't matter.. you have no soul, being a 
> brainwashed killer.  (I was told this by a very earnest young woman in 
> Berkeley the other day.  The look on her face when I asked why she was 
> risking life and limb by angering a soulless killer was worthy the lecture.)

I'll have to remember that. The wife of one of my best friends likes to 
harp on about how it can't be healthy to "know so much about things for 
killing". This might work on her.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 06:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu May  2 05:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A best of the TML recommendation
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020502083237.01884e70@mail.charter.net>

The flurry of Haiku poems.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Practice random acts of intelligence
& senseless acts of self-control.
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 07:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  2 06:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #460 - 23 msgs
Message-ID: <4d.1d7eabf7.2a02921e@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/1/2002 10:37:50 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>     While the "Men of Harlech" scene in "Zulu" still gives me the willies, 
>I prefer the light-hearted "Shermans at the Nazi supply depot" interlude of 
>that Vietnam-in-WW2 flick, "Kelly's Heroes".
>     For those of you who haven't seen the movie or cannot remember the 
>scene; Donald Sutherland* leads a group of tankers who are decidedly odd, 
>they fire paint-filled shells and play Wagner through loud speakers mounted 
>on their turrets.  They nonchalantly lunber out of a railroad tunnel and 
>into a hornets' nest of Nazi troops at a supply depot.  While their speakers 

>play a mournful Hank Williams' honky tonk tune, Sutherland et. al. slaughter 

>infantry, flakpanzers, weapon squads, and remfs alike.


Frank disliked the scene because the symbols on some of the RR cars indicate 
they are carrying POWs. I told him perhaps they are empties, returning after 
dropping them off.

"Always with the negative waves . . . "

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 07:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu May  2 06:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Memories of the Legion
In-Reply-To: <3CD046B3.3040105@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020502131223.65181.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
wrote:
> And John, I know that there's more than one verse to
> the Star Spangled 
> Banner! It's real short though: "Play Ball!"

Yeah, but what I don't understand is where all these
other teams came from, after all, it is the...

"Land of the Free...
And the home of the Braves!!!!"

<duck> <run>

Paul - who set a record on April 30 with the earliest
day of the season I have ever called for Bobby Cox to
resign or be fired.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 07:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu May  2 06:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller amrs manufacturers
Message-ID: <3CD1E6EE.24131.CCCB09@localhost>

Hiya all,

I've been designing some smallarms for GT and I need some corporations 
to produce them. Therefore I though I'd ask you all and see what 
happened. :)

So - what corporations exist in the Imperium that would produce:

1. A fairly simple SMG firing snub gun rounds, at GTL8. It's intended 
for export and for use by para-military police, starport security, etc.

2. A line of high-powered (electro-thermal, for those that care) 
handguns and SMGs (probably be called PDWs though), of good solid to 
fine( for reliability) construction and with many accessories (like 
hand-print recognition, flash sights, suppressors, etc.). Made at GTL10 
(TTL12) for the discerning buyer - mainly individuals and some elite 
forces (especially the SMGs).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 07:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Thu May  2 06:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Today is Camerone Day
References: <B8F39585.58FA7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD05A47.9DF58000@worldnet.att.net>


Tod Glenn wrote:

> This has become something of a TML tradition.  Every April 30, someone posts
> this to the TML. This time, it's me.

Thank you I was all qued up to post it. But I cratered the Caseless Wonder the
29th
so lots of things are on hold until I transfer those HDs to their own cases.
Doesn't it
figure the main comp goes down the week before finals, makes me feel like a
teenager
sll over again.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 07:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Thu May  2 06:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #460 - 23 msgs
Message-ID: <F132i4RC9xRGg3bHlwW00006984@hotmail.com>

> >     While the "Men of Harlech" scene in "Zulu" still gives me the 
>willies,
> >I prefer the light-hearted "Shermans at the Nazi supply depot" interlude 
>of
> >that Vietnam-in-WW2 flick, "Kelly's Heroes".
> >     For those of you who haven't seen the movie or cannot remember the
> >scene; Donald Sutherland* leads a group of tankers who are decidedly odd,
> >they fire paint-filled shells and play Wagner through loud speakers 
>mounted
> >on their turrets.  They nonchalantly lunber out of a railroad tunnel and
> >into a hornets' nest of Nazi troops at a supply depot.  While their 
>speakers
>
> >play a mournful Hank Williams' honky tonk tune, Sutherland et. al. 
>slaughter
>
> >infantry, flakpanzers, weapon squads, and remfs alike.
>
>
>Frank disliked the scene because the symbols on some of the RR cars 
>indicate
>they are carrying POWs. I told him perhaps they are empties, returning 
>after
>dropping them off.
>
>"Always with the negative waves . . . "

I like the way they loaded shells with paint so that it makes pretty 
pictures when they hit the wall...  My favorite line has to do with the 
Oddball sitting in front of the tank...  "Drinking a little wine, eating 
some cheese, catching some rays...."  When asked about the tank, "It's 
broken.  I don't fix them, I just ride in them..."

Great attitude...

"'Woof!  Woof woof.'  That's my other dog imitation." ~ Oddball



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 08:04:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu May  2 07:04:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller arms manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <3CD1E6EE.24131.CCCB09@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020502090348.0093de40@minn.net>

At 01:25 AM 5/3/2002 +1200, you wrote:
>Hiya all,
>
>I've been designing some smallarms for GT and I need some corporations 
>to produce them. Therefore I though I'd ask you all and see what 
>happened. :)
>
>So - what corporations exist in the Imperium that would produce:

>-- 
>"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>

In my Private Traveller Universe Mk 1, some small arms were made by 
Berserker Military Industries.

Unfortunately most of my notes on the Mk 1 PTU were lost during my term
in the Army.

Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 08:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu May  2 07:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
Message-ID: <200205021405.FLW05644@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
>I'll have to remember that. The wife of one of my best 
>friends likes to harp on about how it can't be healthy 
>to "know so much about things for killing". This might work 
>on her.
>

My wife doesn't understand why I have such a "fascination" 
for firearms, or for killing in general.  I wouldn't term it 
a "fascination".  I have told her before the Jeff Cooper 
argument that firearms (or other weapons) are merely 
instruments of power at our technological level. The power of 
the rods and the axe, so to speak. 

Nature does not care if you end up on the menu today, and the 
animal that eats you doesn't care if you're a member of 
PETA.  And most of the enemies of your country don't care if 
you're peace-loving.  Those poor missionaries in the 
Phillipines, for example - kidnapped by extremists.  It is 
likely that they will go to their graves not understanding 
why their captors have kidnapped them, abused them, and in 
the end, decapitated them.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 08:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu May  2 07:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC (was Whither THUDDD?) - longish
Message-ID: <20020502142541.11775.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

For Immediate Release

ISSDEC

Imperial Starship & Spacecraft Design Enthusiast
Competition

Attention:  Coming soon to a terminal near you...

Are you confident in your skills as a Naval Architect?
 Do you believe your company has the best Naval
Architect around?  Do your ship designs run circles
around the competition?  If you answered "Yes" to any
of these questions, we have just the proof you need.

The ISBA (Imperial Ship Builder's Association) is
pleased to bring you ISSDEC (Imperial Starship &
Spacecraft Design Enthusiast Competition).

Each month, a new and unique set of design parameters
will be issued to prospective designers.  Designers
will submit their design to the ISSDEC.  Submitted
Designs will be judged by a select panel of Judges in
several areas (See Below) and a winner in each area
will be selected.

Because of the unique nature of design systesm, there
will be several design categories (See Below).  Each
design system will be considered independently of the
others.  A design may be submitted in multiple
categories by the designer.

During the judging period, the ISSDEC will accept
suggestions for design parameters for the next month's
contest.

Designers must register either as an individual or
through a corporation in order to be eligible for the
competition.  Registration is free.  For more
information about registering or becomming a judge,
please reply with an inquiry.

Judging Areas:
   Best Overall Design
   Closest To Specs
   Most Likely to Use
   Most Efficient Design
   Most Unique Solution

Design Categories: (Subject to change)
   GURPS: Traveller
   FF&S (includes QSDS, SSDS, and the like)
   MegaTraveller
   Classic Traveller

Design Parameters should include:
   Mission Details
   Prevailing Tech Level
   Jump and Maneuver Specs
   Additional Specs, as necessary


OK, here is what I need.

1.  I have no clue about anything regarding GURPS:
Traveller except for Ground Forces (Yes, Doug, I
finally did buy a copy and I love it.) So I either
need to know what I need to buy in order to understand
GURPS designs or I need a GURPS line editor who can
format the ships submitted in that category.

2.  I would also like to see if anyone with some
graphics ability would mind designing the
award/medallion for the Judging Areas.  I was thinking
maybe of a first place medallion, a secong place
ribbon, and a third place pin or something like that
for each area.

If you can help with any of these, let me know
off-line.

Now, the patern...

1.  New design parameters will be issued by the 5th of
the month.
2.  Designs will be accepted from the 5th to the 15th
of the month.
3.  Designs will be posted to the website by the 18th
of the month and judging will begin.
4.  Judging will continue from the 18th of the month
to the 25th of the month. New design ideas will be
accepted while Judging continues.
5.  Judging will be tallied and winners awarded by the
end of the month.

Design Submission Guidelines:

All design submissions MUST include the following
information before the design:

    DESIGNER NAME:  (Your Name)
 DESIGNER CONTACT:  (Your EMail)
MANUFACTURER NAME:  (Use Independent If None)
  DESIGN CATEGORY:  (GT, FFS, MT, CT)

Designer's can register with the same information
above.  Register in the categories you plan to be
designing in (you can change this in the future). 
Designs in different categories need to be submitted
in separate eMails.

In addition, Designer's MUST be able to produce design
worksheets if requested.  Winning designs may be
required to present worksheets (at least volume
numbers) to assist deskplan creation.  Designers grant
permission to the ISSDEC to republish their designs
both on the web and in regular "Best Of" publications.
 Designers will retain ownership of the design and
will be credited as such.

Can anyone think of anything else I am forgetting?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 08:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu May  2 07:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Whither THUDDD?
Message-ID: <F150f0scL9NtDEJmGzr00009008@hotmail.com>

Paul Walker wrote:
>Here is what I need from the TML:
>1.  Is anyone interested in this?
Yes.
>2.  What design systems should be supported?
Well, I use FF&S2. Any system that someone wants to use can probably be 
supported.
>3.  What ships would you like to see?
I'm flexible. In my experiance the most successfull design competitions have 
been the ones where the designs have been military or paramilitary (Scout 
ships/Exploration traders/Merc cruisers etc.). Civilian ships often (but not 
always - see some of the the JTAS competitions) result in very similar 
ships.
>4.  Would anyone else be willing to help out?
In what way?

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 08:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu May  2 07:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <3CD1E6EE.24131.CCCB09@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020502104421.00b86200@urbin.net>

At 01:25 AM 5/3/02 +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>Hiya all,
>
>I've been designing some smallarms for GT and I need some corporations
>to produce them. Therefore I though I'd ask you all and see what
>happened. :)
>
>So - what corporations exist in the Imperium that would produce:

It sounds like Strasse Weapons Systems, S.C. is what you are looking for.
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/sa-sc.html>
Strasse Weapons Systems, SC (Stock Corporation). is a small, but highly 
respected maker of quality weapons that has been privately owned by the 
Strasse family for 6 generations. The company has enjoyed select government 
contracts over the years, supplying quality weapons to elite military units.

SWS SC. is located on Gralyn in Reavers' Deep.  I originally wrote it for 
the T:TNE era, but the company existed before the Rebellion and it can 
easily be transferred to the modern GURPS:T timeline.  I'll just have to 
look up what Gralyn's TL is in that era.



>1. A fairly simple SMG firing snub gun rounds, at GTL8. It's intended
>for export and for use by para-military police, starport security, etc.
>
>2. A line of high-powered (electro-thermal, for those that care)
>handguns and SMGs (probably be called PDWs though), of good solid to
>fine( for reliability) construction and with many accessories (like
>hand-print recognition, flash sights, suppressors, etc.). Made at GTL10
>(TTL12) for the discerning buyer - mainly individuals and some elite
>forces (especially the SMGs).

Built with FF&S, but possibly a good starting point
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/sa-spx9.html>

Strasse Weapons Systems has been the primary center for electro-thermal 
weapons technology research on Gralyn. The project has been funded by both 
company investment and by Gralyn Union research grants. The first product 
of this research to leave their labs is a pistol currently being evaluated 
by the Gralyn Union military services. It is being considered for 
suitability as a potential new service sidearm. The SP-9X (Strasse Pistol, 
Model 9, Experimental) uses a 9x20mm ETC round. It's modular design with 
two different length barrels, an optional stock and additional, extended 
magazines.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 08:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu May  2 07:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <F62WFswl3tTUqp2T0ap000035d0@hotmail.com>

From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Patrik Holmstrm writes:
>>It's not really that bad (though nearly). For example any 200 dt >>Trader 
>>(or other low acceleration ship) or a Tigress class ship will >>be hit by 
>>every shot fired by a (lightspeed) weapon at less than 10 >hexes.
>
>Actually, a 6G 500,000 dton ship is hittable at something like 17 >hexes, 
>so yeah, I suppose there's a point to Medium range.  Long range >can be 
>useful for blowing up megafreighters, Extreme range is mostly >useful for 
>sniping at fixed emplacements.

Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about the distance where 
the ship cannot evade a laser fired at center mass. A 500'000 dt spherical 
ship has a diameter of 237.3 m and will therefore have to move
119 m (118.65) to evade the shot. The time it has availible is double the 
lightlag at the distance (sensor lag + laser lag) or. Using
d = 0.5 * a * t^2 and substituting 2D = t (D is distance in ls)

119 = 60 * (2*D)^2 /2
D^2 = (119/30/4)
D = (119/120)^0.5 = ~0.996 ls or ~10 hexes.

>MCS, unfortunately, still has somewhat mangled hit probabilities, >making 
>hitting too easy at long range.  I've been playing around with >one that's 
>fairly statistically accurate, but it's fairly difficult to >do right.

Good luck to you!

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 09:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu May  2 08:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <3CD1E6EE.24131.CCCB09@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020502150027.62299.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> Hiya all,
> 
> I've been designing some smallarms for GT and I need
> some corporations 
> to produce them. Therefore I though I'd ask you all
> and see what 
> happened. :)
> 
> So - what corporations exist in the Imperium that
> would produce:
> 
> 1. A fairly simple SMG firing snub gun rounds, at
> GTL8. It's intended 
> for export and for use by para-military police,
> starport security, etc.
> 
> 2. A line of high-powered (electro-thermal, for
> those that care) 
> handguns and SMGs (probably be called PDWs though),
> of good solid to 
> fine( for reliability) construction and with many
> accessories (like 
> hand-print recognition, flash sights, suppressors,
> etc.). Made at GTL10 
> (TTL12) for the discerning buyer - mainly
> individuals and some elite 
> forces (especially the SMGs).
> 
> -- 
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> 
> 
  >>
  Thank YOU for visiting BLACK FANG TECHNOLOGIES,
Where We AIM To Meet Your Needs.

  BFT's latest offering in the small arms/personal
weapons market:

  For mid-tech armies, we have now begun series
production of our 'Asp' Configurable Weapon System.
Firing a 9mm[Imperial Standard] projectile from a
9x48mm[IS] case, the 'Asp' utilises a proven 'advanced
ignition' system to propel a 9mm[IS] payload at
lock-breech muzzle velocities from an open-bolt
design.

  The 'Asp' can be mission-tailored with either a
6mm[IS] submunition, wrapped in a 3-piece sabot, or a
full-sized 9mm slug, suitable for use with a
suppressor. NO BARREL CHANGE NECESSARY; the only thing
to remember is to not use the submunitions with a
suppressor attached[this voids all warrenties]. In
addition, the 'Asp' offers total mission flexibility
with different barrel lengths and equipment rails that
allow the mounting of a variety of auxilary weapons
such as grenade launchers, shotguns and laser
targeting 'painters'.

  The 'Asp', as has been true of all other BFT
products, can be supplied with the full range of
accesories, including a variety of optical sights,
suppressors, bayonets and pattern recongintion
devices, among others.

  Just imagine: your total troop needs for infantry,
vehicle crews and special forces, in ONE weapon!
Contact us at our headquarters at
Taa/Pretoria/Deneb/0701, Planetary Region Code
007-666-BFT.

  Stay tuned for out next product release: the
'Adder', optimized for Zero-G combat!


             BLACK FANG TECHNOLOGIES
         Where We AIM To Meet Your Needs

  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 09:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Thu May  2 08:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #464 - 23 msgs
Message-ID: <RELAY2V8tUsLkZT8QkS00001d03@relay2.softcomca.com>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Well, there's always "Fairly Honest Don's Machine Gun Parlor" out in
> Hillsboro.

I know this guy personally.  If one were to force "Truth in Advertising"
on him, he'd have to change the business name to "Rarely Honest Don's".

    - Mark C.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 10:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu May  2 09:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
In-Reply-To: <F62WFswl3tTUqp2T0ap000035d0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020356466.495.ajackson@ping>

Patrik Holmstr=F6m writes:
>=20
> Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about the distance where=
=20
> the ship cannot evade a laser fired at center mass.

Yeah.  I think I was thinking you needed to move a full diameter, though.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 10:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Thu May  2 09:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] THUDD ideas - Exploration Cruiser
In-Reply-To: <F2527GjHnJ8Gw3RBF7R00006761@hotmail.com>
References: <F2527GjHnJ8Gw3RBF7R00006761@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3cd14b82.18177038@post.demon.co.uk>

"Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> writes:

>How about a design for a mid-tech (say, 12?), long range
>independent exploration cruiser?

This has inspired me to attempt my first-ever GT ship design;
constructive criticism welcome!

"Golden Hind" class Exploratory Cruiser
GTL 10/TTL 12

********************
High Guard-2 USP (for reference):

CX-K233763-950000-60809(4)-0  MCr 2,701.92  10,000 tons  TL12
  BatB      6     4 4 2(2)
  Bat       6     4 4 2(2)
Crew=3D175 Passengers=3D20 Cargo=3D613 Marines=3D20
=46uel=3D3200 EP=3D700 Agility=3D3

(Note: the number in brackets is for missile turrets, rated separately
to the ship's missile bays)

********************
The Golden Hind series from Storm Industries Naval Shipyards is ideal
for long-range independent exploration.  It features a fully equipped
survey suite supported by a large complement of ship's boats.
Multiple redundancy of vital components and generous crew facilities
enable the Golden Hind to spend an extended time away from port, while
the ship's heavy shielding and military-grade armament mean that it
has nothing to fear from any armed threat short of a major naval
combat unit.

The heart of the Golden Hind is its twin survey modules, each capable
of independent operation. These allow the ship to detect planets in
neighbouring systems in a mere 3 hours, or map an entire star system
in just over a day.  The Golden Hind also carries space for 20 remote
probes, and laboratory facilities for 8 researchers.

Supporting the scientists in their work, the Golden Hind can deploy
six modular cutters.  These are typically used for planetary surveys,
contact missions and general utiity work.  The ship also has a large
space dock capable of handling up to 100 dtons of small craft - other
ship's boats are normally assigned on a mission-specific basis.  The
Golden Hind normally carries 20 ship's troops and has passenger space
for an additional 20 people - or an additional 235 people if double
occupancy of staterooms is accepted.  Cargo capacity is 613 dtons.

The Golden Hind features a state-of-the-art jump drive giving the
maximum 3 parsecs' range [Note: maximum at TTL 12, that is...].  An
emergency Jump-1 drive provides back-up in case of catastrophic
failure of the main drive.  In addition, the ship is provided with
3,200 dtons of jump fuel tankage, enough for two consecutive Jump-2s
(or a J-3 then a J-1) without refuelling.  Being streamlined, the
Golden Hind is capable of wilderness refuelling;  its onboard fuel
processors can refine a full load of fuel in 8 hours.

Additional safety features include a back-up bridge, a logistics
module with workshop and repair facilities, two sickbays, and
sufficient low berths for the entire crew.  Because of its extended
mission profile, the Golden Hind provides single-occupancy staterooms
for all crewmembers.  An auditorium capable of seating half the crew
at once is also provided:  this can be used for briefings and
presentations as well as for morale-building entertainments.

The Golden Hind is heavily armoured - up to four times the defence
rating of a typical civilian vessel.  It is also protected by
emissions cloaking, making covert surveys of inhabited systems easier.
=46or armament, the ship features two heavy particle accelerator bays on
each broadside plus dorsal and ventral missile racks, as well as no
fewer than 40 triple turrets.  With a fully laden acceleration of 3G,
the Golden Hind is also highly manoeuvreable for a ship of its size
and power.


Variants:
Removing the back-up jump drive and reserve fuel tankage, the large
boat dock and about half of the cargo hold would allow this ship to
fit a spinal mount N-PAWS.  Although such a variant is not advertised
by SINS, independent naval analysts have noted that the Golden Hind is
designed in a way to make construction of a spinal mount-armed version
relatively simple. (The production model also has a lot of blanked-off
spaces on its bridge consoles where you might expect buttons and
readouts to be...)

Such a modification would offer advantages if the ship was intended to
operate in more densely populated areas of the frontier, where planets
with starports and repair facilities are more common but the chance of
hostile encounters also higher.

The modified version costs MCr 3,102.29, has a mass of 39,574.1 tons,
cargo capacity of 273 tons and a loaded acceleration of 2.1 G.

********************
GT statistics

Crew: 215 staterooms.
55 low berths (sufficient for 220 people)

Command crew: 14 - Captain, XO, 2 pilots, 2 navigators, 5 sensor
operators, 2 communications operators, computer officer.
Support Crew: 135 - 3 medics, 55 engineers, 18 ship's cutters crew, 52
gunners, 7 supernumeraries (crews for ship's boats, cargo officers,
etc).
Scientific crew: 26 - 8 analysts, 2 probe operators, 16 surveyors
Ship's Troops: 20 (2 squads of marines)
20 vacant staterooms for passengers.

Design:
10,000 dton streamlined hull.
Standard compartmentalisation.
Basic emissions cloaking.

DR 400  (PD 4)
6 bays:  2 missile, 4 particle accelerator.
40 triple turrets:=20
12 x 3 sandcasters
20 x 3 lasers
8 x 3 missile racks

Modules:
1 command bridge, 1 basic bridge.
1 engineering, 2088 manoeuvre, 480 jump, 16 utility.
3200 fuel, 50 fuel processing.
1 logistics, 1 probe, 2 survey, 4 laboratory
2 sickbay, 1 theatre
215 stateroom, 55 low berth
100 space dock (1 dock)
Vehicle bays for six 50-dton vehicles
613 cargo

Statistics:=20
Empty Mass 23,353.35 tons
Loaded Mass 27,813.35 tons
HP: 255,000 hull, 9750 per bay (x6), 1200 per turret (x40)

Performance
Accel: 3.00 G loaded, 3.57 G empty
Jump: 3
Air speed: 5096 mph

********************
Notes on the HG2 USP:
Since GURPS doesn't have a separate power plant module, I worked out
the number for the USP by assuming the ship can use all its equipment
at full power, and calculating back from there.  The armour took up
21% of the ship's mass in GT, so I just read that as 21% of volume for
the sake of the HG2 formula.


Stephen
Chief Designer
Storm Industries Naval Shipyards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 10:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu May  2 09:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Twins (was re: T-shirt)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: T-shirt
>
>I can't haiku ("bless you") but howsabout a koan:
>
>"Does a man without a twin know whether he is evil or good?"

Homage to Elvis Costello

Science fiction twin
Does better than expected
I'm miserable

>From: generalturokan@juno.com
>
>> "Does a man without a twin know whether he is evil or good?"
>
>If married - Ask wife.
>
>If dating - Ask girlfriend.

Twinless man knows not
Must he be evil or good?
Fix Turokan's test:

If married, ask wife
But maybe has girlfriend too
So should ask them both

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 10:38:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu May  2 09:38:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T-shirt
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>If you're in the Army, it doesn't matter.. you have no soul, being a
>brainwashed killer.  (I was told this by a very earnest young woman in
>Berkeley the other day.  The look on her face when I asked why she was
>risking life and limb by angering a soulless killer was worthy the
lecture.)

Splort!  and I wasn't even drinking -- so I hope this goo on my keyboard is
just ectoplasm and not .... uugghh

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 10:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu May  2 09:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: A best of the TML recommendation
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEKGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
>
>The flurry of Haiku poems.

Flurry of haiku
We pay homage to the game
More than merely fun

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 10:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu May  2 09:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <3CD1E6EE.24131.CCCB09@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020502094541.009ea120@mindspring.com>

At 01:25 AM 5/3/02 +1200, you wrote:
>1. A fairly simple SMG firing snub gun rounds, at GTL8. It's intended
>for export and for use by para-military police, starport security, etc.
>
>2. A line of high-powered (electro-thermal, for those that care)
>handguns and SMGs (probably be called PDWs though), of good solid to
>fine( for reliability) construction and with many accessories (like
>hand-print recognition, flash sights, suppressors, etc.). Made at GTL10
>(TTL12) for the discerning buyer - mainly individuals and some elite
>forces (especially the SMGs).

ACQ Defense Systems has the answers to your personal defence needs.  Give 
us a day or two, and we'll be able to provide some prototypes for your review.

ACQ Defense Systems is a wholly owned subsidiary of Gridlore Technologies, 
LIC.  Gridlore, we ignore those muckraking reporters, shouldn't you?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 10:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu May  2 09:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ChemDet lasers in Traveller [LONG]
Message-ID: <F247wFDxchdpqpEq8hZ000096b3@hotmail.com>

Timothy Little
>Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
>I don't think it would make much difference.  If it's big enough to
>self-destruct with 2 MJ/kg, you're not going to get a lot more power
>out of anything chemical once you add in all the other apparatus
>necessary to get an ultra-high power extremely tightly collimated
>laser beam out of it.

CLCs as described are a little wierd. They can not only generate Xrays but 
they can also generate the gravetic effects neccesary for grav focusing.

>"Jerk."  That's not an insult, it's a technical term :)
>
>Specifically, the term for rate of change of acceleration.  An evading
>vehicle must change acceleration direction rapidly, which means that
>stabilisation has to converge on the order of tens of milliseconds for
>a missile to use its acceleration ability to best advantage, against a
>jerk of thousands of gees per second.

Thank you and John Kwon for pointing that out.

> > Another possible tactic would be to have the missile stop
> > accelerating for 0.1 seconds (or less) while shooting.
>
>0.1 seconds is very short time for even short-mode vibrations to damp
>out from the jerk of not accelerating anymore.  Mind you, I don't
>doubt that TL12 weapon mounts and fire control could do so, but us
>poor mortals certainly couldn't.

Who could have thought that a million Newton (or so) could cause vibrations. 
:) It looks like we have found what the beampointer is doing after all...

>Another thought: A high-RoF missile probably won't scratch the paint
>of most ships -- after all, there's a limit to how much energy you can
>deliver over a combat round, and breaking it up into lots of little
>pieces just means you have more chances to hit for no damage.

I was thinking of 10 to 50 shots at 40 to 80 Mj each fired from a high RoF 
laser. Basically a flying laser turret with 5 minutes duration. It won't be 
any good against larger military ships but good enough for civilians.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 10:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu May  2 09:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller amrs manufacturers
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEKGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>So - what corporations exist in the Imperium that would produce:

Well, Instellarms LIC probably produces weapons of all tech levels, and
there are no doubt plenty of smaller weapons makers.  Companies with high TL
capability may make weapons of lower tech level for the low tech market.
I.e., a TL 7 world would find TL 7 weapons easier to maintain and repair
than TL 9 weapons.

I think there must be some Imperial standards for ammunition, so that, e.g.,
9mm bullets made by Company A fit into pistols made by Companies B, C, and
D.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 11:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu May  2 10:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ah, we're finally going to have a laser turret
Message-ID: <200205021702.FMC06630@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

April 30, 2002, from spacewar.com

The Air Force's Airborne Laser (ABL) team successfully 
completed test-firings of the first flight laser module (LM-
1) in March. The firings produced record power levels of 118 
percent of the laser's designed power output and exceeded the 
power requirements of the ABL mission. The ABL system will 
use six such laser modules to create a megawatt-class 
chemical laser flying in a specially built Boeing 747-400F to 
shoot down missiles in the boost phase.
________________
Sunlight on windows
Office buildings against sky
Stuck inside again

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 11:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May  2 10:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <20020502150027.62299.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8F6C25B.593C3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/2/02 8:00 AM, Michael Cessna at graymask1120@yahoo.com wrote:



> For mid-tech armies, we have now begun series
> production of our 'Asp' Configurable Weapon System.
> Firing a 9mm[Imperial Standard] projectile from a
> 9x48mm[IS] case, the 'Asp' utilises a proven 'advanced
> ignition' system to propel a 9mm[IS] payload at
> lock-breech muzzle velocities from an open-bolt
> design.

Intriguing.

I notice the use of a 48mm long case, which is a very hi capacity case.  If
the 9mm loading is going to be subsonic, you'll have so little propellant
that ignition will be a problem.  Also, the difference in momentum between
the 6mm and 9mm projectiles may give operational problems with Advanced
Primer Ignition (API) operation.

What are the expected velocities of the two rounds?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 11:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May  2 10:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEKGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B8F6C5E3.593C5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/2/02 9:51 AM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> Well, Instellarms LIC probably produces weapons of all tech levels, and
> there are no doubt plenty of smaller weapons makers.  Companies with high TL
> capability may make weapons of lower tech level for the low tech market.
> I.e., a TL 7 world would find TL 7 weapons easier to maintain and repair
> than TL 9 weapons.
> 
> I think there must be some Imperial standards for ammunition, so that, e.g.,
> 9mm bullets made by Company A fit into pistols made by Companies B, C, and
> D.

I doubt it.  The firearms market (with the exception of the military) is
very much a niche market.  Calibers tend to be purpose designed.  There will
be standard calibers, to be sure, and possible some standards body to define
what a specifics caliber's specs are, but there will always be people who
are developing new cartridges to fit a perceived need.

In the US, we have SAAMI, a cooperative body that publishes standards for
various cartridges so that there is interchangeability and safety for
various cartridges, but it in no way restricts what cartridges are created.

Since the Imperium 'governs the space between planets', the planets
themselves will probably determine their own standards, and these will
probably come from the manufacturers.  Planets that engage in local
manufacture of home grown weapons designs are less likely to be influenced
by Imperium wide 'standards'.  in fact, they may purposefully avoid them in
order to restrict the utility of small arms in unauthorized hands.  Civilian
weapons may be restricted to non-standard calibers to prevent owners from
having a ready source of ammunition, or military weapons may be inssued in
some bizaare local caliber to prevent them from being used by civilians or
insurgents.

The other problem for manufacturers is that firearms are very durable goods.
A firearms may last 50-100 years (at TL8) and still be serviceable.  In
order for manufacturers to maintain demand, they are forced to come up with
new and different designs, which of means 'new and better' calibers.

Sure, there will be accepted standards.  Just like 9x19mm, 7.62 NATO,
7.62x39mm, etc.  But there will also be wildcats and proprietary calibers.
Most people will stick to the standards, but there will always be a certain
percentage who have to have the newest, fastest most powerful loads, and
someone will line up to fulfill those desires.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 11:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu May  2 10:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] THUDD ideas - Exploration Cruiser
In-Reply-To: <3cd14b82.18177038@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020502175106.19226.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Stephen Tempest <tml@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> This has inspired me to attempt my first-ever GT
> ship design;

Save it for the contest maybe you'll win the ISSDEC
Best in Show Medallion.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 12:13:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Thu May  2 11:13:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <3CD1E6EE.24131.CCCB09@localhost>
References: <3CD1E6EE.24131.CCCB09@localhost>
Message-ID: <200205021417290987.1827E8A5@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/3/2002 at 1:25 AM Rupert Boleyn wrote:

>Hiya all,
>
>I've been designing some smallarms for GT and I need some corporations 
>to produce them. Therefore I though I'd ask you all and see what 
>happened. :)
>
>So - what corporations exist in the Imperium that would produce:

<shamelessplug>

Although for T20 and CT, the new Traveller's Aide PDF contains listings of=
 a number of weapons manufacturers and their products that could easily be=
 used with GT!

</shamelessplug>

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 13:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu May  2 12:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T4 Capital Ships?
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1020366563.0.14988000@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Anthony Jackson posted:
>
>MCS, unfortunately, still has somewhat mangled hit probabilities,
>making hitting too easy at long range.  I've been playing around
>with one that's fairly statistically accurate, but it's fairly 
>difficult to do right.

I'd love to see it when you're finished, if you don't mind sending
me a copy.

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 13:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu May  2 12:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller amrs manufacturers
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

>on 5/2/02 9:51 AM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:
>
>> I think there must be some Imperial standards for ammunition, so that,
e.g.,
>> 9mm bullets made by Company A fit into pistols made by Companies B, C,
and
>> D.
You replied:
>I doubt it.  The firearms market (with the exception of the military) is
>very much a niche market.  Calibers tend to be purpose designed.  There
will

[excellent analysis deleted]

I don't think we're in disagreement.  I only said that some Imperial
standards must exist -- not that such standards had the force of law, or
dominated the market.  You validly pointed out many situations in which
those standards would not apply, or would be intentionally avoided.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 13:40:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May  2 12:40:20 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B8F6E419.594B1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/2/02 12:13 PM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

>> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> 
>> on 5/2/02 9:51 AM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:
>> 
>>> I think there must be some Imperial standards for ammunition, so that,
> e.g.,
>>> 9mm bullets made by Company A fit into pistols made by Companies B, C,
> and
>>> D.
> You replied:
>> I doubt it.  The firearms market (with the exception of the military) is
>> very much a niche market.  Calibers tend to be purpose designed.  There
> will
> 
> [excellent analysis deleted]
> 
> I don't think we're in disagreement.  I only said that some Imperial
> standards must exist -- not that such standards had the force of law, or
> dominated the market.  You validly pointed out many situations in which
> those standards would not apply, or would be intentionally avoided.

OK.  Yes, then.  There will have to be some standards body for the consumer.
Not necessarily specifying standard calibers, but setting standards for what
a particular caliber is.  That way we don have two types of 9mm with the
same dimensions and bullet and even name with two vastly different allowable
chamber pressures, for example.

As I mentioned, the US SAAMI is an example of such a voluntary standards
body (http://www.saami.org).

IMTU I have just created the ISAAM (Imperial Society of Arms and Ammunition
Manufacturers).  While having no legal powers, they set standards for arms
and ammuntion and award ISAAM certification to products that meet these
standards.  Products built to ISAAM specs would be allowed to display the
ISAAM logo.

The Society would be mad up of representatives of all manufacturers and
governed much like an IETF to prevent any company from using ISAAM
certification as a marketing tool against a competitor, and ISAAM specs
would originate with the manufacturers in any case.

Say InstellArms creates a new cartridge, the 11x30mm supermagnum.  As the
creator, they would submit the standards to ISAAM for publication.  This
would include dimensions and pressure levels so that any cartridge
manufactured by anyone in 11x30mm would be interchangeable and firearms
chambered for that round would be safe to use so long as they met the
standard.  This does not mean that Instellarms gives up any propriety or
trademark rights to the 11x30mm supermagnum.

I expect that the educated consumer will insist on ISAAM certified arms and
ammo.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 14:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu May  2 13:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <B8F6C25B.593C3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020502200836.84609.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> on 5/2/02 8:00 AM, Michael Cessna at
> graymask1120@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > For mid-tech armies, we have now begun series
> > production of our 'Asp' Configurable Weapon
> System.
> > Firing a 9mm[Imperial Standard] projectile from a
> > 9x48mm[IS] case, the 'Asp' utilises a proven
> 'advanced
> > ignition' system to propel a 9mm[IS] payload at
> > lock-breech muzzle velocities from an open-bolt
> > design.
> 
> Intriguing.
> 
> I notice the use of a 48mm long case, which is a
> very hi capacity case.  If
> the 9mm loading is going to be subsonic, you'll have
> so little propellant
> that ignition will be a problem.  Also, the
> difference in momentum between
> the 6mm and 9mm projectiles may give operational
> problems with Advanced
> Primer Ignition (API) operation.
> 
> What are the expected velocities of the two rounds?
> 
> -- 
> Tod L Glenn
> 
  >>
  Approx. 1500 m/s for the 6mm projectile, and 800 m/s
for the 9mm, using a 28gr charge.

  For more information on the concept: 

         http://guns.connect.fi/gow/2030.html

  ...And, yes, licsencing is possible. ;o)

M.A.Cessna
Ex VP for Operations,
BLACK FANG TECHNOLOGIES
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 14:18:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  2 13:18:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Twins (was re: T-shirt)
Message-ID: <20020502.131715.-171165.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Thu, 2 May 2002 09:31:08 -0700 "Glenn M. Goffin"
<gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
> >From: generalturokan@juno.com
> >
> >> "Does a man without a twin know whether he is evil or good?"
> >
> >If married - Ask wife.
> >
> >If dating - Ask girlfriend.
> 
> Twinless man knows not
> Must he be evil or good?
> Fix Turokan's test:
> 
> If married, ask wife
> But maybe has girlfriend too
> So should ask them both
> 
> --Glenn

Ok Glenn,

If married and having a girlfriend - ask both.

If both agree on good or bad - that's what you are - There is only one
you.

If both disagree - you have earned the right of split personality - You
are both evil and good - You are a twin..

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 14:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May  2 13:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <20020502200836.84609.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8F6EFBE.594D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/2/02 1:08 PM, Michael Cessna at graymask1120@yahoo.com wrote:

>> 
>>> 
> Approx. 1500 m/s for the 6mm projectile, and 800 m/s
> for the 9mm, using a 28gr charge.
> 
> For more information on the concept:
> 
> http://guns.connect.fi/gow/2030.html
> 
> ...And, yes, licsencing is possible. ;o)

You realize that 800 m/s is supersonic.  You'll still have a ballistic
'crack' regardless of suppressor.

The concept is interesting.  FWIW, I've been shooting 22 caliber bullets
from sabots in .30 carbine for many years.  Too bad they're not very
accurate.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 15:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu May  2 14:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP trade codes
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEJIGPAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <000401c1f21c$db6acc20$7a00a8c0@imogen>

jml wrote:
> I think the Imperium indirect, the TAS Red Zones.  Most
> people tend to use the TAS as a Michelin's guide to the Imperium
> and ascribe a certain amount credence that canonically it doesn't
> have.

Actually, the Michelin Guide metaphor is how I tend  to  view  it
too ... but non-intedicted Red Zones are extremely  rare:  A  Red
Zone rating would be disasterous  for  a  world's  trade  and  if
inappropriate could lead to some sort  of  legal  action  by  the
world in question against TAS.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 15:02:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu May  2 14:02:25 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP trade codes
References: <20020501.131753.-97305.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1f21c$dbe7eb60$7a00a8c0@imogen>

Turokan wrote:
> Ok, a question then:
> If a system is red, it's there for one of any number of reasons
> right?
<snip>
> Due to variables as these would the power that made the system
> a red zone not maintain it?
> I would import or export as per the powers who ordered it red.

My current thinking is:

- A   small   population   world   *suggests*   a   military   or
  megacorporation installation of some kind (or possibly a senior
  noble's private residence).  If this is so all trade  would  be
  via the interdicting authority  as  you  suggest.  Unauthorised
  traders can only trade with the locals through the local  black
  market (if there is one).

- A habitable world with a large population and low TL *suggests*
  interdiction by the IISS to protect  an  emerging  culture.  If
  this is so then the "Na" and "Ni" flags should be  dropped  and
  any unauthorised traders may  face  a  possible  first  contact
  situation.

- A habitable world (but with a tainted atmosphere) with a mid to
  large population, mid-level TL, and a  balkanised  'government'
  *suggests*  a  possible  global   war   (maybe   with   nukes).
  Unauthorised traders risk getting shot down by paranoid  locals
  or having their ship seized  as  a  potential  military  asset.
  With the local economy turned to war production  the  "Ag"  and
  "In" flags should be dropped.

- An  inhospitable  world  with  a  large  high  tech  population
  *suggests* interdiction is the ultimate in  economic  sanctions
  ... being forced to relive the Long Night!  At the  very  least
  the trade effects of "Ag",  "Na",  "In",  and  "Ni"  should  be
  doubled (maybe more), and for certain  specialised  goods  (say
  replacement componants for failing city life  support  systems,
  etc) unauthorised traders  could  name  their  price.  But  the
  downside would be the local  currency  would  be  non-tradeable
  (thus limiting unauthorised traders to a barter  system).  Some
  TNE products could be recycled into a CT setting here.

Or in other words I would only expect import/export  activity  on
interdicted  worlds  to  be  carried  out  by  the   interdicting
authority where there is a  *small*  population  only.  Elsewhere
there  is  either  no  offworld  trade  (the  protected   culture
scenario) or offworld trade has been cut  off  and  import/export
markets  have  been  strangled.  I  just   don't   see   the   3I
interdicting a large population  world  and  then  servicing  its
import/export needs for an indefinate period.

Also, for interdicted  worlds  there  would  be  no  trade  flags
reported in player materials of civilian origin.



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 15:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu May  2 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <B8F6EFBE.594D2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020502213414.38397.qmail@web11003.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> on 5/2/02 1:08 PM, Michael Cessna at
> graymask1120@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> >> 
> >>> 
> > Approx. 1500 m/s for the 6mm projectile, and 800
> m/s
> > for the 9mm, using a 28gr charge.
> > 
> > For more information on the concept:
> > 
> > http://guns.connect.fi/gow/2030.html
> > 
> > ...And, yes, licsencing is possible. ;o)
> 
> You realize that 800 m/s is supersonic.  You'll
> still have a ballistic
> 'crack' regardless of suppressor.
> 
> The concept is interesting.  FWIW, I've been
> shooting 22 caliber bullets
> from sabots in .30 carbine for many years.  Too bad
> they're not very
> accurate.
> 
> Tod L Glenn
> 
  >>
  True, but there's not much of a way around it. The
only alternative is advances in suppressor technology
to lower the sig[*shrug*]. 

  Of course, lowering the charge a bit shouldn't
impare functioning, while getting the slug below the
super- range. Overall, the weapon would look like a
cross btwn a Sterling SMG and a FG42; plus, it's
firing from an open bolt, and wouldn't have a terribly
strong recoil spring. RPM would be around 400-500
rnds/min.

     MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 17:42:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu May  2 16:42:16 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP trade codes
In-Reply-To: <000401c1f21c$db6acc20$7a00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEFEDPAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> I think the Imperium indirect, the TAS Red Zones.  Most
>> people tend to use the TAS as a Michelin's guide to the Imperium
>> and ascribe a certain amount credence that canonically it doesn't
>> have.
>
>Actually, the Michelin Guide metaphor is how I tend  to  view  it
>too ... but non-intedicted Red Zones are extremely  rare:  A  Red
>Zone rating would be disasterous  for  a  world's  trade  and  if
>inappropriate could lead to some sort  of  legal  action  by  the
>world in question against TAS.
>
>Regards PLST

This kind of response to a problem is way to U.S centric. IMTU a local noble
would demand satisfaction form one of the nobles on the TAS board. No nobles
involved? Well the citizens could petition the Count responsible for the
world or petition the subsector duke for action.. Do you see what I'm
getting at here? IMTU the courts are for two things. The dock so that the
Imperium can take care of troublema... I mean, punish criminals. And a place
where the Megacorps can squeeze their local competito... I mean, prevent
violation of their patents and intellectual property. Individuals (except
for very rich ones) and even worlds, need not tie up the nobility (who sit
on courts) with trivialities. "Obviously if the place wasn't a sucking
pit-hole the TAS review committee wouldn't be telling their rich an noble
clients it was unsafe to go there. Case dismissed. Pay the court clerk on
the way out for wasting the Emperor's time."

Which brings up my other point: TAS requires a million credit entry fee. In
game play, many PC's get membership for "Services to the Imperium." In the
game universe I would expect that the number of such memberships handed out
is very small. IMTU, TNS is generally picked up by the local news services,
but it is primarily sent out for members. The JTAS is an exclusive
membership publication, with much more limited circulation. More like an
insider trade journal, than like National Geographic. (IMTU the Imperial
Geological Society, sometimes still known by its original initials: SGS
(Sylean Geographical Society, puts out such a publication.)

TAS inspects ships and rates world primarily as a service to its members,
who are some of the richest and most powerful people in the Imperium. They
do a good job at it because that's what their members demand. They just
aren't sued.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 18:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu May  2 17:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
In-Reply-To: <000501c1f21c$dbe7eb60$7a00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020384326.1367.ajackson@ping>

I've felt like trying to gearhead FFS2 for a while, so here's a noxious design
to consider...

Happy Fun Ball-class Dreadnaught

With the appearance of the immense linear mounts favored by such shipyards
as AuricTech and Dimashq, Spiral Industries of Trin has realized that the
Classic Sphere(tm) configuration has been unduly absent in the latest 
series of Imperial Procurement.  In order to correct this aesthetic flaw,
Spiral Industries introduces the million-ton Happy Fun Ball-class 
dreadnaught.  With it's friendly smile, the Happy Fun Ball is not only
a weapon of war, it's a devestating psychological weapon.  In recognition
of the importance of appearances, the Happy Fun Ball has not been given
stealth, and retains a fully customizable chameleon hull.

Recognizing that war is not limited to psychology, the Happy Fun Ball 
also has a spiral primary mount, capable of easily firing through the
armor on any other current superdreadnaught design, including the Shiva
and Recurrent Glory; at a full meter of enhanced bonded superdense, the
hull is capable of withstanding any other currently available linear 
particle beam mounts, though it remains vulnerable to meson fire at 
short ranges.  For ground bombardment and the occasional close combat,
a rapid fire secondary meson mount is also supplied.

Not being inclined to compete in the arena of GoldPlating, the Happy Fun
Ball is also less expensive than either of its competitors.

Tons: 1,000,000std(SL Sphere Hyper) Crew: 24,761/27,817
Volume: 14,000,000 m^3              Passengers Med/Hi/Lo: 0/0/0
Mass (L/C): 14,893,560T/14,249,560T Troops/Science: 0/0
Dimensions: 299M diameter           Frozen Watch: 2,000
Size: 12                            Cargo: 15,000 std(200Hat,200x50T)
Cost: 1,138,619 MCr (Cost Mul x1)   Maint Points: 399,647

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard Automation.  100 x FltComp (CM: .2 CP:
    5.0). 20 x FibComp (CM: .2 CP: 5.0).  Terrain following sensors
    (TF: 570, NOE: 190). Bridge.
Communications: 20 x Radio (1,000 AU, 0.2 MW). 100 x Laser (1,000 AU, 0
    MW). 5 X Meson (1,000 AU, 5 MW).
Sensors: 1 x PEMS (15 [500 mkm], 5 MW). 1xAEMS (13 [16 mkm] LP, 500 MW).
    16 x LIDAR (15 [2 mkm], 2.5 MW).
Survey/Science: 1 x Densiometer (9.5 [1600 km]). 1 x Neutrino (9 [500 km],
    20 MW).
ECM: 2 x Radio Jammer (1,000 AU, 0.4 MW). 1 x Area Jammer (12, 625 MW).
    1 x Deceptive Jammer (13, 12.5 MW). 1 x Passive Jammer (16, 6.25 MW).
Signatures: Vis: 0.5, IR: 1.5(1 at 6,000,000MW), Act: 1, Neu: 2, Grav: 2

Performance: 
4 Jump (100000 std/pc fuel)
6 / 6.2 Maneuver (Thruster: 2249800 MW)
No Contra-grav
5000 kph/5000 kph Atmosphere Maximum
3750 kph/3750 kph Atmosphere Cruise
12 power (Fusion: 6,000,000MW, 1 yr)
0 battery
442,857 Fuel (Scoop: 3 / Purif: 25, 7440 MW)
26000/2000/200 Accomdations (SmStRoom/LgStRoom/Low Berth
120,000 Life Sup (Type: Standard, Normal Food/Storage)
6 G-Comp
100 x sandcaster (AV: 100, 40 x canister ea, arranged in 20 x bty)
24 x nuclear damper turret (5 MW, Range: 50,000 km, arranged in 6 x bty)
500 Damper Screen (331 MW)
2000 Meson Screen (10,000 MW)
180 [4710] Armor, 59 Structure

Weapons:
6 x Beam MFD (500000 km)
6 x Missile MFD (500000 km)
200 x 70 MJ Laser Turret Battery (+6) 1/9-9-6-4 [16, 100/21-21-10-5] (SR)
    Point defense ROF: 800
100 x 400 MJ Medium Laser Turret (+6) 1/6-4-2-0 [2, 800/50-25-13-6] (LR)
50 x 750 MJ Heavy Laser Turret (+6) 1/4-2-0-0 [1, 800/68-36-17-9] (LR)
10 x 750 MJ Heavy Laser Bay (+6) 1/11-11-11-11[4, 800/68-68-68-68] (LR)
25 x Msl Can 40/3 (/Mag 0 /Mfd 500,000 km) w/40 Command DL 1d6/2 6G12 1000AU
1 x 80 GJ Spinal Meson (+6) 2/16-12-10-7 [1, 800/2008-1004-502-251] (LR)
2 x 14.4 GJ 8 Lap Parallel PAW(+6) 2/16-16-16-16 [1, 400/1433-1433-1433-1433]
1 x 100 GJ 25 Las Spinal PAW(+6) 2/24-24-24-24 [1, 200/5033-5033-5033-5033]

Features:
10000 x Airlock
1 x Docking Umbilical
80 x Electronic Shop (6 std ea.)
200 x Machine Shop (10 std ea.)
100 x Sickbay (8 std ea.)
120 x Prisoner Capacity (80 x LowSec, 20 x MedSec, 20 x HiSec)
1 x Ship's locker (500 std)
100 x Armory (5 std ea.)
200 x Gym (2.5 std ea.)
25 x Lounge (200 std ea.)
1 x Combat Information Center (466 std)
25 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 1,000)
25 x Full Galley (Cap: 120)

Small Craft:
30 x Minimal Hangar (100 std ea, 10 x Hatch)
10 x Spacious Hangar(100 std ea, 10 x Hatch)
2 x Launch Tube (100 std ea)

Backups:
Sensors: 4 x PEMS (14.5 [160 mkm)), 4 x AEMS (12.5 [5 mkm])
Power and Fuel: Fusion (100,000 MW)

Crew Details: 12 x Maneuver. 9 x Electronics. 19866 x Engineer. 1066 x
Maintenance. 1292 x Gunner. 105 x Screen. 500 x Troops.  3808 x Command.
229 x Medical.  930 x Steward.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Thu May  2 17:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller amrs manufacturers
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020502094541.009ea120@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CD1D551.E3147C63@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> At 01:25 AM 5/3/02 +1200, you wrote:
> >1. A fairly simple SMG firing snub gun rounds, at GTL8. It's intended
> >for export and for use by para-military police, starport security, etc.
> >
> >2. A line of high-powered (electro-thermal, for those that care)
> >handguns and SMGs (probably be called PDWs though), of good solid to
> >fine( for reliability) construction and with many accessories (like
> >hand-print recognition, flash sights, suppressors, etc.). Made at GTL10
> >(TTL12) for the discerning buyer - mainly individuals and some elite
> >forces (especially the SMGs).
> 
> ACQ Defense Systems has the answers to your personal defence needs.  Give
> us a day or two, and we'll be able to provide some prototypes for your review.
> 
> ACQ Defense Systems is a wholly owned subsidiary of Gridlore Technologies,
> LIC.  Gridlore, we ignore those muckraking reporters, shouldn't you?

Note also that ACQ Defense Systems is listed in _101 Corporations_
(under its parent corporation Gridlore Technologies), on page 30.  Other
small arms manufacturers described in _101 Corporations include the
Tributis Arms Group's Small Arms Division (page 24) and the X-TEK
spinoff firm Antioch Arms (page 25).  While Famille Spofulam (pages
27-28) has reportedly produced man-portable weapons, I know of no FS CPR
slugthrowers.

AuricTech Shipyards (pages 25-26) has no current plans to move into the
small arms field.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 18:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu May  2 17:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Forthcoming from SJGames - Not Traveller, but definitely going to be worth it...
Message-ID: <7bl3dug76o41v97s2bsugo7qj8j20mobb2@4ax.com>

This morning on IRC, I was in the presence of Soon-to-be-Greatness.  The
author of the forthcoming "TransHuman Space: Blue Shadow" was there and
brainstorming, and bouncing ideas off sundry, and some of the ideas that he
had were quite interesting.  I think it will be a worthwhile buy for many
of the people on this list; more I am not at liberty to say at the moment.
But I _know_ that it's already on my 'Grab on sight' list.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Thu May  2 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
References: <ML-2.3.1020384326.1367.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CD1DAE3.D2A2DEDA@premier.net>


Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> I've felt like trying to gearhead FFS2 for a while, so here's a noxious design
> to consider...
> 
> Happy Fun Ball-class Dreadnaught
> 
> With the appearance of the immense linear mounts favored by such shipyards
> as AuricTech and Dimashq, Spiral Industries of Trin has realized that the
> Classic Sphere(tm) configuration has been unduly absent in the latest
> series of Imperial Procurement.  In order to correct this aesthetic flaw,
> Spiral Industries introduces the million-ton Happy Fun Ball-class
> dreadnaught.  With it's friendly smile, the Happy Fun Ball is not only
> a weapon of war, it's a devestating psychological weapon.  In recognition
> of the importance of appearances, the Happy Fun Ball has not been given
> stealth, and retains a fully customizable chameleon hull.
> 
> Recognizing that war is not limited to psychology, the Happy Fun Ball
> also has a spiral primary mount, capable of easily firing through the
> armor on any other current superdreadnaught design, including the Shiva
> and Recurrent Glory; at a full meter of enhanced bonded superdense, the
> hull is capable of withstanding any other currently available linear
> particle beam mounts, though it remains vulnerable to meson fire at
> short ranges.  For ground bombardment and the occasional close combat,
> a rapid fire secondary meson mount is also supplied.

The only problem with the spiral (toroidal?) PAW mount is that _any_
damage to the weapon knocks it completely out.  OTOH, given the
astounding armor level of this class, that could be put in the same
category as the famed recipe for rabbit stew:  First, catch the rabbit.
> 
> Not being inclined to compete in the arena of GoldPlating, the Happy Fun
> Ball is also less expensive than either of its competitors.

While this appears so on the surface, it should be noted that HFB
requires far more skilled crewbeings (27,817 total crew) than either
_Shiva_ (19,744 total crew) or _Recurrent Glory_ (15,260 total crew). 
The additional costs associated with the larger crew required by HFB
will eat up at least some of the money saved on the base purchase price.

We at AuricTech are pleased to note that some of our design innovations,
such as individual staterooms for all crewbeings, Combat Information
Centers and crew lounges are being adopted by other shipyards. 
Increasing long-term habitability with such facilities can only increase
the combat efficiency of Imperial Navy crews, particularly on
long-duration missions.

Overall, despite the issue of the main armament being comparatively
fragile (albeit well-protected), the Happy Fun Ball class is a rather...
_intimidating_ design.  Well done, Anthony!

<<snip design specifics>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 18:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu May  2 17:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020502104421.00b86200@urbin.net>
References: <3CD1E6EE.24131.CCCB09@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CD286EF.16559.8518AF@localhost>

On 2 May 2002 at 10:49, Mark Urbin wrote:

> It sounds like Strasse Weapons Systems, S.C. is what you are looking for.
> <http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/sa-sc.html>
> Strasse Weapons Systems, SC (Stock Corporation). is a small, but highly 
> respected maker of quality weapons that has been privately owned by the 
> Strasse family for 6 generations. The company has enjoyed select government 
> contracts over the years, supplying quality weapons to elite military units.
> 
> SWS SC. is located on Gralyn in Reavers' Deep.  I originally wrote it for 
> the T:TNE era, but the company existed before the Rebellion and it can 
> easily be transferred to the modern GURPS:T timeline.  I'll just have to 
> look up what Gralyn's TL is in that era.

sounds interesting, depending on TL.

> >1. A fairly simple SMG firing snub gun rounds, at GTL8. It's intended
> >for export and for use by para-military police, starport security, etc.
> >
> >2. A line of high-powered (electro-thermal, for those that care)
> >handguns and SMGs (probably be called PDWs though), of good solid to
> >fine( for reliability) construction and with many accessories (like
> >hand-print recognition, flash sights, suppressors, etc.). Made at GTL10
> >(TTL12) for the discerning buyer - mainly individuals and some elite
> >forces (especially the SMGs).
> 
> Built with FF&S, but possibly a good starting point
> <http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/sa-spx9.html>
> 
> Strasse Weapons Systems has been the primary center for electro-thermal 
> weapons technology research on Gralyn. The project has been funded by both 
> company investment and by Gralyn Union research grants. The first product 
> of this research to leave their labs is a pistol currently being evaluated 
> by the Gralyn Union military services. It is being considered for 
> suitability as a potential new service sidearm. The SP-9X (Strasse Pistol, 
> Model 9, Experimental) uses a 9x20mm ETC round. It's modular design with 
> two different length barrels, an optional stock and additional, extended 
> magazines.

It's not the guns that are the problem - I'm doing those myself. I just 
need a decent corporation name, and am looking for some, or at least 
ideas. Actually several of the guns already exist for TNE (see 
<http://www.downport.com/bard/bard/vera/vera7107.html>), but I'm doing 
them for GT.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 18:48:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu May  2 17:48:33 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <B8F6C5E3.593C5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEKGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CD286F0.10064.851A3F@localhost>

On 2 May 2002 at 10:30, Tod Glenn wrote:

> The other problem for manufacturers is that firearms are very
> durable goods. A firearms may last 50-100 years (at TL8) and still be
> serviceable.  In order for manufacturers to maintain demand, they are
> forced to come up with new and different designs, which of means 'new
> and better' calibers. 

Hah. Firearms last a good deal longer than that at TL5. My father has a 
Mk. 1 Lee-Enfield from the end of the 19th century (though it's been re-
barreled at least once) and a Swedish Mauser from 1899 (IIRC). They're 
both perfectly serviceable.
 
> Sure, there will be accepted standards.  Just like 9x19mm, 7.62
> NATO, 7.62x39mm, etc.  But there will also be wildcats and
> proprietary calibers. Most people will stick to the standards, but
> there will always be a certain percentage who have to have the
> newest, fastest most powerful loads, and someone will line up to
> fulfill those desires. 

Of course. that's what the second company I'm after is for - the 
pistols I'm designing include at least one 'hand cannon'. For some 
reason a great many PCs seem to come into the category that wants 'the 
mostest' form their guns.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 18:49:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu May  2 17:49:00 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEKGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CD286EF.17540.851977@localhost>

On 2 May 2002 at 9:51, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> >
> >So - what corporations exist in the Imperium that would produce:
> 
> Well, Instellarms LIC probably produces weapons of all tech levels, and
> there are no doubt plenty of smaller weapons makers.  Companies with high TL
> capability may make weapons of lower tech level for the low tech market.
> I.e., a TL 7 world would find TL 7 weapons easier to maintain and repair
> than TL 9 weapons.

I thought about Instellarms, LIC for the Snub SMG (incidentally is the 
rumour I heard that there's one in Star Mercs true?), but I'm needing a 
good name for a producer of specialty weapons.
 
> I think there must be some Imperial standards for ammunition, so that, e.g.,
> 9mm bullets made by Company A fit into pistols made by Companies B, C, and
> D.

I've always assumed that there is, for the more common rounds like 10mm 
snub, the 9mm pistol and 9mm magnums, 7mm ACR, etc. anyway. 
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 18:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu May  2 17:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <3CD1D551.E3147C63@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CD2887F.28654.8B3415@localhost>

On 2 May 2002 at 19:09, John Groth wrote:

> AuricTech Shipyards (pages 25-26) has no current plans to move into the
> small arms field.

If they do I'm sure that any weapons that have mass added for balance 
and/or recoil control will have it in the form of very tasteful gold 
embellishment, rather than crude lumps of lead hidden away someplace. 
:)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 19:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  2 18:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Forthcoming from SJGames - Not Traveller, but definitely going to b...
Message-ID: <da.17741e9e.2a033fa0@aol.com>

--part1_da.17741e9e.2a033fa0_boundary
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> This morning on IRC, I was in the presence of Soon-to-be-Greatness.  The
> author of the forthcoming "TransHuman Space: Blue Shadow" was there and
> brainstorming, and bouncing ideas off sundry, and some of the ideas that he
> had were quite interesting.  I think it will be a worthwhile buy for many
> of the people on this list; more I am not at liberty to say at the moment.
> But I _know_ that it's already on my 'Grab on sight' list.

Yes, Blue Shadow does look as if it's going to be pretty good.

I would certainly recommend Transhuman Space to anyone on this list. It
has a very different flavor than Traveller, of course, but it's one of the 
richest
and most thoroughly-realized SF settings to hit the roleplaying market in a
long time.

Disclaimer: I wrote one book in the series and had both hands in its early
development up to the elbows. So *of course* I'm going to plug it :-). Still,
I think its quality will speak for itself. Have a look.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_da.17741e9e.2a033fa0_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; This morning on IRC, I was in the presence of Soon-to-be-Greatness. &nbsp;The
<BR>&gt; author of the forthcoming "TransHuman Space: Blue Shadow" was there and
<BR>&gt; brainstorming, and bouncing ideas off sundry, and some of the ideas that he
<BR>&gt; had were quite interesting. &nbsp;I think it will be a worthwhile buy for many
<BR>&gt; of the people on this list; more I am not at liberty to say at the moment.
<BR>&gt; But I _know_ that it's already on my 'Grab on sight' list.
<BR>
<BR>Yes, Blue Shadow does look as if it's going to be pretty good.
<BR>
<BR>I would certainly recommend Transhuman Space to anyone on this list. It
<BR>has a very different flavor than Traveller, of course, but it's one of the richest
<BR>and most thoroughly-realized SF settings to hit the roleplaying market in a
<BR>long time.
<BR>
<BR>Disclaimer: I wrote one book in the series and had both hands in its early
<BR>development up to the elbows. So *of course* I'm going to plug it :-). Still,
<BR>I think its quality will speak for itself. Have a look.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_da.17741e9e.2a033fa0_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 20:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu May  2 19:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Forthcoming from SJGames - Not Traveller, but definitely going to b...
In-Reply-To: <da.17741e9e.2a033fa0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000201c1f246$a6b46fc0$0b01a8c0@duck>

[plug deleted]

Getting back to Traveller ...

When is Traveller: Humaniti going to be released?  I have heard about it for
a long time, but it still hasn't been finished yet.  Is there any sort of
ETA for it?

Thanks.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 20:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Thu May  2 19:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Forthcoming from SJGames - Not Traveller, but
 definitely going to b...
In-Reply-To: <000201c1f246$a6b46fc0$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <da.17741e9e.2a033fa0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503100616.024a4458@pop3.norton.antivirus>

>
>When is Traveller: Humaniti going to be released?  I have heard about it for
>a long time, but it still hasn't been finished yet.  Is there any sort of
>ETA for it?

  And Starships? and Navy? <grin>

--ondy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 20:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  2 19:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GT Humaniti
Message-ID: <173.7b34509.2a034b83@aol.com>

--part1_173.7b34509.2a034b83_boundary
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mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:
> Getting back to Traveller ...

Heh. Apologies.


> When is Traveller: Humaniti going to be released?  I have heard about it for
> a long time, but it still hasn't been finished yet.  Is there any sort of
> ETA for it?

We're not ready to announce a release date yet, but I can tell you that
things are moving along and it's on the schedule.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_173.7b34509.2a034b83_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:
<BR>&gt; Getting back to Traveller ...
<BR>
<BR>Heh. Apologies.
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>&gt; When is Traveller: Humaniti going to be released? &nbsp;I have heard about it for
<BR>&gt; a long time, but it still hasn't been finished yet. &nbsp;Is there any sort of
<BR>&gt; ETA for it?
<BR>
<BR>We're not ready to announce a release date yet, but I can tell you that
<BR>things are moving along and it's on the schedule.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_173.7b34509.2a034b83_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 20:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May  2 19:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller amrs manufacturers
Message-ID: <B8F74138.5955B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/2/02 5:47 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> I thought about Instellarms, LIC for the Snub SMG (incidentally is the
> rumour I heard that there's one in Star Mercs true?), but I'm needing a
> good name for a producer of specialty weapons.

Well, create one or steal one.  I have several IMTU, ranging from MegaCorp
size (Military Technologies LIC) on down.  Take a look at
http://weapons.travellercentral.com/corps/index.html

Perhaps you'll see a logo you like.  Wolffe AG is a company I haven't
fleshed out much and it has a pretty neat logo.

BTW, you're always welcome to contribute to the 'Mercenaries' guide to
weapons'.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 20:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu May  2 19:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GT Humaniti
In-Reply-To: <173.7b34509.2a034b83@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1f24d$06e99720$0b01a8c0@duck>

From: JFZeigler@aol.com
>mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:
>> Getting back to Traveller ...
>
>Heh. Apologies.

No apologies required.  That was not meant as an admonition for straying
from Traveller.  I was merely taking advantage of your post to ask about the
Humaniti book.  I was just being an opportunist.  :-)

And thanks for the update.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 21:48:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  2 20:48:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #466 - 18 msgs
Message-ID: <13e.dc627b1.2a03624c@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/2/2002 7:57:00 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>> The other problem for manufacturers is that firearms are very
>> durable goods. A firearms may last 50-100 years (at TL8) and still be
>> serviceable.  In order for manufacturers to maintain demand, they are
>> forced to come up with new and different designs, which of means 'new
>> and better' calibers. 
>
>Hah. Firearms last a good deal longer than that at TL5. My father has a 
>Mk. 1 Lee-Enfield from the end of the 19th century (though it's been re-
>barreled at least once) and a Swedish Mauser from 1899 (IIRC). They're 
>both perfectly serviceable.

I myself own a Commission Mauser (gewehr 88) with Turkish sight markings and 
a German arsenal stamp (Lowe) dated 1890. Still shootable provided one 
exercises care with the loads.

LKW


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 21:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May  2 20:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #466 - 18 msgs
In-Reply-To: <13e.dc627b1.2a03624c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8F75914.595CA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/2/02 8:47 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>> Hah. Firearms last a good deal longer than that at TL5. My father has a
>> Mk. 1 Lee-Enfield from the end of the 19th century (though it's been re-
>> barreled at least once) and a Swedish Mauser from 1899 (IIRC). They're
>> both perfectly serviceable.
> 
> I myself own a Commission Mauser (gewehr 88) with Turkish sight markings and
> a German arsenal stamp (Lowe) dated 1890. Still shootable provided one
> exercises care with the loads.
> 

I used to own an original Colt model 1860 Army percussion revolver.  And
shot it on several occasions (it was no in good enough shape to be
considered collectable).  Call that 150 years plus.  But for every classic
like that, there are those that don't last so long.  I suppose I should have
said and average of 50-100 years.  Anyone care to guess the useful lifespan
of a Lorcin or Raven?

The point is that firearms, as a general rule, last a long time.  In order
for companies to keep people buying, they are forced to come up with new
features or calibers and the like, because very few people need to buy guns
because their old one wore out.

That is the reason I expect the Imperium will have a whole host of calibers
floating around.  Though I expect only a dozen will make up 90%+ of all the
calibers sold.

The marketing department at InstellArms will be kept busy trying to think up
new goodies to stay in business if they're depending on small arms to keep
the coffers filled.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 22:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  2 21:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <3CD1E6EE.24131.CCCB09@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CD1C8DA.27025.1005B08@localhost>

Thank you for your inquiry.

We here at Redkneck Arms and Munitions (RAAM) the proven developers of the " 
"Bubba" and "Little Bubba" anti ship missiles.

We have the "Redkneck Wedding Special" a 20mm over and under binary propellant 
Shotgun system. Available in single, double and belt ammo feeds. Self Forging, HE, 
Sabots, Flechettes, and hardened shot is available. It is just the thing for to welcome 
new family members to a wedding in their honor.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 23:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jimmy Simpson)
Date: Thu May  2 22:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Forthcoming from SJGames - Not Traveller, but
 definitely going to be worth it...
In-Reply-To: <7bl3dug76o41v97s2bsugo7qj8j20mobb2@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20020503000535.0232eeb0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 08:13 PM 5/2/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>This morning on IRC, I was in the presence of Soon-to-be-Greatness.  The
>author of the forthcoming "TransHuman Space: Blue Shadow" was there and
>brainstorming, and bouncing ideas off sundry, and some of the ideas that he
>had were quite interesting.  I think it will be a worthwhile buy for many
>of the people on this list; more I am not at liberty to say at the moment.
>But I _know_ that it's already on my 'Grab on sight' list.

One thing on my 'Grab on Sight' list that I noticed today is GURPS Uplift 
2/e, which is currently in playtest.

Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@mail.com

"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
                       -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  2 23:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu May  2 22:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] THUDD ideas - Exploration Cruiser
Message-ID: <3CD21C33.6D27EC36@mail.cswnet.com>

While slaving away at yet another draft for Arba down starport, I
discover the following... 

Walt Smith writes:
>Ok, I've been watching too much_Enterprise_.

Well, you could've been watching...

		Robinson Crusoe on Mars

But I digress...

>How about a design for a mid-tech (say, 12?), long range
>independent exploration cruiser?

Yeah, we got one of those on the lot. Take a look at this one:

Christopher Draper class exploration cruiser
SC-C6335F2-050106-60008-0  Mcr2764.398 standard  3200dt
            1   1 2   1     TL=12  Crew=58 Marines=12
            1   1 2   1      Scientists=20
Fuel=1120 EP=160 Agility=3 Fuel scoops and purification plant installed.
100dt weapons bay with code 6 repulsor
50dt weapons bay with code 8 missiles
one 2dt tripple sandcaster battery
two 5dt tripple beam laser batteries
code 1 nuclear damper
Model6fib computer [primary] Model3fib computerx2 [auxiliary]
Model1fib computer [for science staff]
Officers staterooms=19 @ 4dt each, 76dt total [includes Marine officer]
Enlisted staterooms=51 @ 2dt each, 102dt total [incl. 11 Marines]
Scientist staterooms=20 @ 4dt each, 80dt total
Laboratories=10 Sickbays=2 Machine shop=1 Electronics shop=1
Standard TL12 Modular Cutters=2 Extra Cutter Modules=2
Normally carries 2 passenger modules and 2 cargo modules
Cargo=52 [note additional cargo available in cutter cargo modules. Also,
additional cargo will eventually become available as ship depletes its
stores.]
Stores=288 [Ship uses 24dt per month, can operate for full year]
Crew=58
Command=9 Officers, 5 Ratings
Engineering=1 Officer, 9 Ratings
Gunnery=5 Officers, 16 Ratings
Service=7 Ratings
Marines=12 [1 Officer and 11 enlisted]
Scientists=20
Total cost, including cutters but not arch fees: Mcr2764.398
Architects Fees, standard: Mcr27.64398
Discount Cost: Mcr2211.5184

Design rules used: HG2 [Book 5 and Adventure 5]
Also "New Equipment for High Guard Ships" which I think was done by
Kevin Walsh. This was on the web some where but now I can't find the
link.
The essential bits used from "New Equipment" in the design: 
Machine shop 10dt Mcr2
Electronics shop 6dt Mcr1
Sick bay 7dt Mcr5
Laboratory 7dt Mcr5

If we're super serious about getting THUDD rolling again [assuming HG2
stuff is welcome] I can probably get the full design sheet typed in a
week or so, depending on how busy things get.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
Vader: "Luke, I am your father."
Luke: "Gee, Dad, thats great. You gonna give me the Child Support Checks
that you OWE me now?!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 00:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu May  2 23:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Men of Harlech
In-Reply-To: <200205011631.FKG01685@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20502.234522.1V3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

John, 
Could you *please* quit posting stuff in base-64 encoding? 

In mail you write:

> TW9yZSBvbiAiTWVuIG9mIEhhcmxlY2giDQoNCkZyb20gYW5vdGhlciBoaXN0b3JpYW46DQoN
> CldlJ3ZlIGFsbCBzZWVuIHRoZSBtYXJ2ZWxsb3VzIG1vdmllLCB3aGVyZSB0aGUgaGVyb2lj
> IFdlbHNoIA0KZ2Fycmlzb24gYXQgUm9ya2UncyBEcmlmdCBtYXRjaCB0aGUgYXdlc29tZSBa
> dWx1IHdhci1jaGFudHMgDQp3aXRoIGEgc3RpcnJpbmcgcmVuZGl0aW9uIG9mIE1lbiBvZiBI
> YXJsZWNoLiBDb21lIG9uIEl2b3IsIA0Kc2luZyBzb21ldGhpbmcgdGhleSBrbm93IOKApiAN
> Cg0KV2VsbCwgaXQgd2Fzbid0IHF1aXRlIGxpa2UgdGhhdC4gSW4gZmFjdCwgdGhlIGNvdW50
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> IG1vc3Qgb3B0aW1pc3RpYyBzZWFyY2ggb2YgDQp0aGUgcmVnaW1lbnRhbCByb2xsIGNhbiBm
> aW5kIG9ubHkgMTkgbWVuIG9mIEIgQ29tcGFueSwgDQoyLzI0dGgsIHdpdGggYW55IHNvcnQg
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> ZSB0aGFuIDgwLiBPZiBjb3Vyc2UsIHRoZXJlIHdlcmUgZGV0YWNobWVudHMgDQpvZiBudW1l
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> cmVzZW50IGF0IHRoZSBiYXR0bGUsIG1ha2luZyBhIHRvdGFsIGdhcnJpc29uIG9mIGFib3V0
> IDE0NS4gDQpTbyB0aGUgV2Vsc2ggY29udGluZ2VudCBjb21wcmlzZWQgbm8gbW9yZSB0aGFu
> IDE1JSBvZiB0aGUgDQp0b3RhbC4gDQoNCkFuZCBuby1vbmUsIEknbSBzb3JyeSB0byBzYXks
> IHNhbmcgTWVuIG9mIEhhcmxlY2g7IHRoZSANCnJlZ2ltZW50YWwgbWFyY2ggaW4gMTg3OSB3
> YXMgVGhlIFdhcndpY2tzaGlyZSBMYWRzLiINCg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KU3VubGln
> aHQgb24gd2luZG93cw0KT2ZmaWNlIGJ1aWxkaW5ncyBhZ2FpbnN0IHNreQ0KU3R1Y2sgaW5z
> aWRlIGFnYWluDQo=
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 02:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 01:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Forthcoming from SJGames - Not Traveller, but  definitely going to be worth it...
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20020503000535.0232eeb0@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <003001c1f27d$77577a60$f19693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >This morning on IRC, I was in the presence of Soon-to-be-Greatness.  The
> >author of the forthcoming "TransHuman Space: Blue Shadow" was there and
> >brainstorming, and bouncing ideas off sundry, and some of the ideas that
he
> >had were quite interesting.

And all we have here on TML is the authors of half the GURPS product line
and the entire T20 line.

No wonder nobody takes any notice of us here; not when you can go over to an
entirely different forum and meet someone who's written an entirely
different game.

"A prophet is never without honour, save in his own home country".




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 02:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 01:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Forthcoming from SJGames - Not Traveller, but  definitely going to b...
References: <da.17741e9e.2a033fa0@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020503100616.024a4458@pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <005201c1f27d$f3671f20$f19693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
>   And Starships? and Navy? <grin>


Navy is about 80% done. Loren tells me he's just about finished editing the
one before it in the queue (Note how he carefully avoids saying anything
about anything other than his own project, in case he's forgotten about an
NDA...!) and next is Navy. Once we have the editor's comments, the rest
should happen fairly quickly.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 04:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri May  3 03:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #464 - 23 msgs
In-Reply-To: <RELAY2V8tUsLkZT8QkS00001d03@relay2.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <20503.003712.2u7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>> Well, there's always "Fairly Honest Don's Machine Gun Parlor" out in
>> Hillsboro.
>
> I know this guy personally.  If one were to force "Truth in Advertising"
> on him, he'd have to change the business name to "Rarely Honest Don's".

So write him and his shop up for an "encounter" for GMs to use. Just
change a few names and details. <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 04:10:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri May  3 03:10:34 2002
Subject: [TML] reloading example
In-Reply-To: <00e601c1f176$bb40b6e0$a15d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20503.002150.3R1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson
>> Well, there's always "Fairly Honest Don's Machine Gun Parlor" out in
>> Hillsboro.
>
> Which is actually a really good name for a shop.  So good, in fact, that you
> couldn't use it in a Traveller game, because your players would think you
> are being silly!

Remind me in a few months and I'll tear that page out of the old phone
book when we get the new ones and mail it to you. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 04:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri May  3 03:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <B8F74138.5955B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD312D8.4383.BE9E7E@localhost>

On 2 May 2002 at 19:17, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 5/2/02 5:47 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:
> 
> > I thought about Instellarms, LIC for the Snub SMG (incidentally is the
> > rumour I heard that there's one in Star Mercs true?), but I'm needing a
> > good name for a producer of specialty weapons.
> 
> Well, create one or steal one.  I have several IMTU, ranging from MegaCorp
> size (Military Technologies LIC) on down.  Take a look at
> http://weapons.travellercentral.com/corps/index.html
> 
> Perhaps you'll see a logo you like.  Wolffe AG is a company I haven't
> fleshed out much and it has a pretty neat logo.

That it does. Any ideas at all as to where it's from, and what TL?
 
> BTW, you're always welcome to contribute to the 'Mercenaries' guide to
> weapons'.

Well I see you haven't any stats up there for a 10mm snub SMG, and you 
have mentioned them in your game. I've got one that's currently under 
development for GT (ie I'm having fun with the flavour text at the 
moment) and it also has TNE stats (which may or may not bear much 
resemblance to the GT ones).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 04:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri May  3 03:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #466 - 18 msgs
In-Reply-To: <13e.dc627b1.2a03624c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CD31323.1220.BFC3F6@localhost>

On 2 May 2002 at 23:47, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> I myself own a Commission Mauser (gewehr 88) with Turkish sight markings and 
> a German arsenal stamp (Lowe) dated 1890. Still shootable provided one 
> exercises care with the loads.

That would've been for black powder at that time, wouldn't it?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 04:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri May  3 03:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #466 - 18 msgs
In-Reply-To: <B8F75914.595CA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <13e.dc627b1.2a03624c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CD31484.18653.C527CF@localhost>

On 2 May 2002 at 20:59, Tod Glenn wrote:

> The point is that firearms, as a general rule, last a long time.  In
> order for companies to keep people buying, they are forced to come up
> with new features or calibers and the like, because very few people
> need to buy guns because their old one wore out. 

I think it was Jim Charmichel who said that if you got to shoot the 
barrel out of a modern rifle you could consider yourself a very lucky 
man.
 
> That is the reason I expect the Imperium will have a whole host of
> calibers floating around.  Though I expect only a dozen will make up
> 90%+ of all the calibers sold. 

That would be my expectation. I would also expect that travellers would 
tend to go with the 'Imperial standard' rounds, because the further you 
go from the point of origin the more likely that 'non-standard' ammo 
will be unavailable.

> The marketing department at InstellArms will be kept busy trying to
> think up new goodies to stay in business if they're depending on
> small arms to keep the coffers filled. 

Ah, but I doubt that they do - I expect that most of their money comes 
from selling heavy equipment and the training and parts that goes with 
that.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 05:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Fri May  3 04:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <DAV75ivzW8bts3QAs7E0000c56e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHKEFJCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>


> < Begin quote >
> A Republican candidate for an Alabama congressional seat has
> proposed a plan
> to tax science fiction to fund NASA, The Huntsville (Ala.) Times reported.
> Michael Williams, who is running for the 5th Congressional District seat,
> proposes a 1 percent "NASA tax" on SF books, comics and any other
> space-related literature to finance the National Aeronautics and Space
> Administration, the newspaper reported. The tax would also apply
> to "space,
> space-related and science fiction toys, puzzles and games,"
> Williams said in
> a listing of his platform, the newspaper reported.A Hampton Cove, Ala.,
> resident, Williams, 28, holds a master's degree in political science from
> the
> University of Alabama in Huntsville and a bachelor's degree in business
> management from Athens State University. He works at Publix Super
> Market at
> Hampton Cove, the newspaper reported.
> < End quote >
>
>

Taxes are unconstitutional.

The senator has shit for brains.

Even if taxes were constitutional, this tax would not be, because it imposes
a financial penalty only a specific group of people. people who read science
fiction. And this group does not even receive any direct benefit from the
tax! While were at it, let's put a 1% tax on jerry curls, afro picks, hair
weaves, and give that money to the NAACP!

Where does it end?

When will people learn that we need less government not more.

www.harrybrown.org

-Shawn-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 05:38:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Fri May  3 04:38:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <20020425120658.A16347@4dv.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEFJCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> 
> As ideas go, it's really not all that bad.  1% is a bit steep, though.
> 

Than you can pay my share of the fucking tax!!!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 05:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Fri May  3 04:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEFJCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <005001c1f297$4766fdc0$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Was that really necessary?

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Shawn R Sears" <ShawnSears@telocity.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 7:40 AM
Subject: RE: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction


> 
> > 
> > As ideas go, it's really not all that bad.  1% is a bit steep, though.
> > 
> 
> Than you can pay my share of the fucking tax!!!
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 05:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Fri May  3 04:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCEEOADPAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEFKCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

>
> Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want
> to help make
> those dreams come true.
>
>

You obviously spend too much time in the Traveller universe and not the real
world. It's just that kind of stupid mentality that will probably get the
bill passed.

Have you ever even read the constitution?

www.harrybrown.org

-Shawn-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 05:48:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Fri May  3 04:48:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b8ee241a5d06@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHIEFKCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> 
> How much of the budget would a 1% tax cover?

Who the fuck cares?
Why would you even give second thought to such a stupid proposal.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 06:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Fri May  3 05:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b8ee2476727f@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEFLCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> I'm not sure these sort of things are such a bad idea.  It would tie
> the projects in better with their constituencies.  For example, the
> SF tax would give NASA funding from a source that puts a priority on
> its activities and give those who are interested in space research
> more results.  (And people are more tolerant of taxes that go to
> specific things they support).

Since you support this horrifically stupid idea, you can pay 10%.
Yours, mine, and the eight other people I've talked to who think
the idea is abominable.

It's because of that same stupid mentality that we pay 50% of our
incomes in taxes!!! And what do we get to show for our tax money?

More stupid laws the take away our civil liberties.
War on drugs. LOST
War on illiteracy. LOST
A foreign policy that turned part of my city to rubble,
and causes roughly half the world to hate America.
Tens of thousands killed in Afghanistan, but missed Bin Laden!

And here's what's coming next:
A 1% tax on all fitness equipment to support school Physical Education.
A 1% tax on all violent shows and movies to support the police department.
A 1% tax on all pornography to fight teen pregnancy.
A 1% tax on ALL books to combat the war on illiteracy.
(Sci-Fi fans pay double)
A 1% tax on food to support agricultural research.
A 1% tax on computers to support the Internet.
A 1% tax on candy to support dental research.
A 1% tax on music to support the performing arts.
A 1% tax on guns to support the military.
A 1% tax on housing to support the homeless.
A 1% tax on cars and gas to support the fight air pollution.
A 1% tax on cars and gas to support the promote highway safety.
A 1% air travel to support airline safety.
(Too late on that one!)
A 1% tax on water to support the EPA.
A 1% tax on oil to pay for new Alaskan drilling.
A 1% tax on all electrical appliances to support the Department of Energy.
A 10% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support SETI.
A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support NASA.
(Traveller players pay twice)
A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support fusion research.
A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support the Atomic Energy
Commission.
A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support Army weapons
research.
A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support psychiatric research.
A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support gravimetrics.
A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support physics.
A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support astronomy.
A 10% tax on Traveller games and supplements to research how people with
IQ's in the top 5% of the population can think that new taxes are a good
thing, and how we can use this information to fool "all of the people, all
of the time".

-Shawn R Sears-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 06:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 05:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEFLCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <00ac01c1f2a0$850d3910$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> > I'm not sure these sort of things are such a bad idea.  It would tie
> > the projects in better with their constituencies.  For example, the
> > SF tax would give NASA funding from a source that puts a priority on
> > its activities and give those who are interested in space research
> > more results.  (And people are more tolerant of taxes that go to
> > specific things they support).
>
>

This is the Traveller Mailing List, not a political forum.

Can we take this debate elsewhere before it reaches an even higher
temperature?

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 06:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May  3 05:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEFLCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
References: <p04330102b8ee2476727f@[143.232.119.186]> <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEFLCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20020503224726.B4543@freeman.little-possums.net>

Shawn R Sears wrote:
[...far too much off-topic profanity on a subject that was nicely dead
before he got to it.]

Use your energy writing your representatives instead of the hundreds
of the rest of use who have nothing to do with it, and are in
different countries to boot.

*plonk*


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 06:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri May  3 05:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEFLCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEPCDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Actually, Shawn, the Libertarians support many "user fees" such as this
proposal, though not in exactly the same way. They say that highway users
should pay for highways via very high tolls. They say that calling the fire
department should be pay-as-you-go. Same with police. Same with education.
This 1% tax on people who are interested in space and sci-fi is closer to
the Libertarian party view of things than to what the socialist wings of the
major parties promote, which is "tax the rich" (but winds up being "penalize
the productive"). As a small "l" libertarian, I understand most of your
points about taxes. But I thought the sci-fi idea was actually much more
creative than any other revenue-raising ideas I've heard out of politicos
lately.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Shawn R Sears
>
> Since you support this horrifically stupid idea, you can pay 10%.
> Yours, mine, and the eight other people I've talked to who think
> the idea is abominable.
>
> It's because of that same stupid mentality that we pay 50% of our
> incomes in taxes!!! And what do we get to show for our tax money?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 06:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Fri May  3 05:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <18819783.11D89EB1.02280B06@aol.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEEFMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
> > I think that there should be a "lack of imagination" tax.
> 
> It's conversations like this that remind me that Ayn
> Rand, cracked as she was, actually had a few useful
> insights.
> 
> The real reason libertarianism never gets anywhere is
> because *everyone* has some tax or rule that they would
> like to see imposed by force on their fellow men. We
> all have some behavior of which we disapprove, so we
> reach for the levers of government in order to outlaw
> that behavior for everyone. In short, we have met the
> second-handers, and they are us.
> 
> (Yes, John, I know you weren't being terribly serious.
> You just reminded me of a long-standing pet peeve.)
> 

Speak for yourself.
I personally don't give a dam what other people do,
provided it doesn't interfere with my Civil Liberties, or 
that of someone else's. Free speech guarantees that everyone
will be offended by someone else at some point in time. I
accept this, and I have no desire to control the actions
of others by force of law, simply because I find their
behavior "offensive". If I see 2 guys kissing in public,
I'm repulsed, but I don't make an issue of it, not do I
wish that it were outlawed.

As for others who want to enforce their morality on others:

"GET OVER IT!"


-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 07:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Fri May  3 06:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <005001c1f297$4766fdc0$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHOEFMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Joseph Elric Smith
> Sent: Friday, 03 May, 2002 07:40
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
> 
> 
> Was that really necessary?
> 

Yes it really was FUCKING necessary?

If I could travel through time, I would take with me 3 bats.
1 made from heavy rubber.
1 made from hard plastic
1 made from aluminum.
I would travel through time to moments when some leader
came up with his brilliant but truly stupid idea that
fucked up the world just that much more for the rest of us.
I'd pop in just as he finished his imbecilic statement,
and I'd whack him in the back of the head with one of the bats.
Then I'd pop back out. That Alabama fool would get the rubber one.

-Shawn R Sears-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 07:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May  3 06:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1020384326.1367.ajackson@ping>
References: <000501c1f21c$dbe7eb60$7a00a8c0@imogen> <ML-2.3.1020384326.1367.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020503230534.C4543@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Happy Fun Ball-class Dreadnaught

I like it.


> Terrain following sensors (TF: 570, NOE: 190).

I'm trying to picture this 300 metre smiley ball zooming over the
treetops.  Nope, it just won't fit in my head... besides, with that
amount of armour, who *cares* where the terrain is?  ;)

"That slight shaking was us taking the top off that mountain.  The
groundpounders are going to have to adjust their maps.  Again."


> 6 / 6.2 Maneuver (Thruster: 2249800 MW)

Not HEPlaR, I hope.  I really don't want to know how much exhaust
energy comes out of this thing if it's HEPlaR!


> 12 power (Fusion: 6,000,000MW, 1 yr)

Hmm -- for perfect black-body radiation, I get a surface temperature
of 4400 K.  I wonder how long it takes to cool down before people can
use the airlocks?  ;)

I'm going to have to see how it turns out in GURPS Vehicles now... :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 07:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri May  3 06:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEFKCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCCEEIEAAA.andy@exeus.com>

> >
> > Why not ? If you dream of space, seems logical to me you'd want
> > to help make
> > those dreams come true.
> >
> >
>
> You obviously spend too much time in the Traveller universe and
> not the real
> world. It's just that kind of stupid mentality that will probably get the
> bill passed.
>
> Have you ever even read the constitution?
>
> www.harrybrown.org
>
> -Shawn-

Shawn,

You obviously aren't familiar with the quote "Ask not what your country can
do for you, ask what you can do for your country". It's all very well
expecting your Government to pick up the tab, but they have to get the money
from somewhere. You want Space Science, GPS, Velcro and God knows what else
? Well, sign here. That is the real world - these things COST. I hate high
taxation as much as anyone, and I believe that over and above the basic
services (health, education, defence) taxation should be targetted.

Secondly, I don't spend much time at all in the Traveller universe. I run my
own business, have two kids and a wonderful partner, and anything left over
from that is spread across many interests, not just Traveller.

Thirdly, before you run off and hide behind the Constitution, I suggest you
read it yourself, as you obviously haven't got the message. It doesn't
actually clearly define anything other than "Congress has the right to raise
taxes". It does not clearly define the purpose of such taxation nor does it
define the actual methods or proportions of taxation (though the limit of 10
dollars on immigration is obviously out of date).

Finally, I had a look at the URL you posted. If this is the sort of person
whose views you cherish, then I'd suggest that you take a step back and
think again. It's precisely this narrow minded, limited, opinionated
viewpoint that is to the detriment of society as a whole.

Oh - one last thing - I'm a UK resident, of Irish descent. I'm extremely
grateful that you are in the minority in the US, and that the US is blessed
with far more visionary, daring and capable people from all around the
world, who do believe in your space programme and are willing to make
sacrifices, even laying down their lives, for the benefit of all humanity,
not just American citizens. I believe the quote is "One small step for _Man_
... " ?

If you want to reply, do it off list.

Regards

Andy Brick







---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 19/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 07:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May  3 06:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEFLCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
References: <p04330102b8ee2476727f@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503091410.00b8ba30@urbin.net>

At 08:41 AM 5/3/02 -0400, Shawn R Sears wrote:
[snip]

Could you at least please keep your rants timely?
This thread died a merciful death at least a week or two ago.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 07:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Fri May  3 06:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1019607191.7543.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHKEFNCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> 
> Robert A. Uhl writes:
> > On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > > 
> > > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
> > > would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> > > bathing and sanitation...
> > 

Bad Idea!
The government will collect 10 million in taxes,
and give out 3 million in subsidies.

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 07:18:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Fri May  3 06:18:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
In-Reply-To: <F149h133tYwlib4g3Sv00002f80@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEFNCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

>
> <SNIP>
> Come on! Are you saying that the failure rate means that one
> person in 25 in
> the population will be mistakenly identified as a member of the database?
> </SNIP>
>
> I'm not saying that - the news programme that had the feature said a 4%
> failure rate.  And they got their figures from either the company
> creating
> the system, or the local Police force.
>
> *I* am merely repeating it.
>
> To give you a better picture of the sort of stupidity we are currently
> 'enjoying', two men found guilty of collecting "lost" golfballs
> from a lake
> have been sentenced to five months in prison.  An ex-Politician
> is in prison
> for perjury (telling lies in court).
> Meanwhile rapists, muggers and thieves are on the streets because "the
> prisons are too overcrowded"...
>
> ObTrav: you get sentenced to a year in prison because you didn't tell the
> *whole* truth about what your engineer was doing last night, whilst her
> mugger gets off because there are too many off-worlders in the cells.
>
> Jeff.
> "I don't care how long you argue, you are *not* bringing *that* aboard!"
>

That 4% failure rate is probably under IDEAL CIRCUMSTANCES.
Few things work in the real world the same way they do in the lab.
I would bet that the real world margin of error is greater that 4%.

-Shawn-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 07:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Fri May  3 06:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEPCDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHKEFOCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

>
> Actually, Shawn, the Libertarians support many "user fees" such as this
> proposal, though not in exactly the same way. They say that highway users
> should pay for highways via very high tolls. They say that
> calling the fire
> department should be pay-as-you-go. Same with police. Same with education.
> This 1% tax on people who are interested in space and sci-fi is closer to
> the Libertarian party view of things than to what the socialist
> wings of the
> major parties promote, which is "tax the rich" (but winds up
> being "penalize
> the productive"). As a small "l" libertarian, I understand most of your
> points about taxes. But I thought the sci-fi idea was actually much more
> creative than any other revenue-raising ideas I've heard out of politicos
> lately.
>
>

A user fee would be paying 5 cents to take a book out from the library.
Not paying 1% to NASA. I really hope you understand the difference.

Tolls do no need be high if the money isn't wasted like it is now. Police
and fire fighting are NOT pay as you go.

-Shawn-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 07:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Fri May  3 06:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] gearheaded link
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020501094503.00b93b00@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHCEFPCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> 
> <http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/ptech/04/26/keyless.keyboards.idg/in
> dex.html>
> 
> Interesting article on upcoming input options for PDAs.
> Useful for Traveller Percomps.
> 


...and thus became the end of the "keyboard kill"...

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 07:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Fri May  3 06:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] THUDD ideas - Exploration Cruiser
References: <3CD21C33.6D27EC36@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <08c001c1f2a8$80798680$1f9e15ac@warrior>

> If we're super serious about getting THUDD rolling again [assuming HG2
> stuff is welcome] I can probably get the full design sheet typed in a
> week or so, depending on how busy things get.
>

I suggest using GT, buts that just because I have the books for it.  Also I
suggest budget should be part of the contest, i.e. you have x MCr to to
build a ship, with bonus point for coming in under budget


later
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 07:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri May  3 06:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] THUDDD Information...
Message-ID: <20020503134514.65894.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

In case you missed it yesterday, THUDDD has begun anew
with a new name.  It is now ISSDEC.  I will try to
post the design parameters for the first contest (the
May Contest) later today or tomorrow.

For more information, either eMail me off-line, or
look for ISSDEC in the archives for the "Rules" post I
put out yesterday.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 07:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri May  3 06:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Flaming Trolls
Message-ID: <20020503134903.63001.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

Recent events on the list have made me aware that I
might need to learn how to kill-file some messages.  I
have not yet had reason to do this, so if anyone has
any experience doing this in Yahoo mail, I would
appreciate the info.

ObTrav:

What NPC's do you have in your Traveller Universe that
are either (a) simply there to be obnoxious, or (b)
irritatingly humorous.  I'm thinking of people like
the Joe Pesci(sp) character from the Leathal Weapon movies.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 07:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri May  3 06:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHKEFOCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEPEDMAA.tml@downport.com>

Library fees would be more like the prices to rent videos, unless there were
private support, which many libraries have currently. NASA would be
classified as a military endeavor and paid out of the general fund, or not
done at all.

And yes, many of the libertarian writers do suggest that, although
establishing police and fire units would be done with local property taxes,
using the services would still incur a fee, depending on the type of service
rendered: you set your yard on fire and you get a bill for putting it out;
you get run in for passing bad checks and you pay for the cell, the court
costs, and full restitution. Not all see it that way, but some of us purists
like to discuss it ;)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Shawn R Sears
>
> A user fee would be paying 5 cents to take a book out from the library.
> Not paying 1% to NASA. I really hope you understand the difference.
>
> Tolls do no need be high if the money isn't wasted like it is now. Police
> and fire fighting are NOT pay as you go.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 07:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri May  3 06:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] THUDD ideas - Exploration Cruiser
References: <20020503114909.AFCAE279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005e01c1f2ab$03457ea0$815d8690@computer>

I let this slip pass me, and didn't think about it until tonight.  I may
have misattributed the quote:

> Walt Smith writes:
> >Ok, I've been watching too much_Enterprise_.
...
> >How about a design for a mid-tech (say, 12?), long range
> >independent exploration cruiser?

My response is that it's the wrong question.  I wouldn't use a single
exploration cruiser for long range missions.  Instead, I would send a
squadron of smaller vessels.  These would include some "armed freighters",
which would carry lots of gear and people, and would probably more or less
fit into the "exploration cruiser" category, but the assumption would be
that they would be accompanied by other vessels - another of the same type,
as a minimum.  As such, they wouldn't tend to have quite as much system
redundancy, but would be oriented to establishing bases to operate from, and
moving forward in stages from such bases.

All of this is based on doctrines I spent a lot of time developing during
the TNE days, which were intended to minimise the number of suicide missions
teams were sent on, while maximising the amount of information returned
home.  Not putting all your eggs in one basket was a major element of these
doctrines.

Well, I suppose I should write up an "armed freighter" now, but it's a bad
weekend for it.  The Hiver ships in TNE were pretty good in these roles,
IIRC.  Just stick a destroyer or two with them, and you have an
expedition...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 08:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 07:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Big Brother
References: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMEFNCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <021501c1f2aa$e670aa70$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> That 4% failure rate is probably under IDEAL CIRCUMSTANCES.
> Few things work in the real world the same way they do in the lab.
> I would bet that the real world margin of error is greater that 4%.

Facial recognition technology is fairly reliable and constantly improving.
Most failures are negative (i.e. failure to provide a definite
identification in that particular incidence) rather than misidentification.
Every time the individual comes within range of a camera, there will be an
identification attempt. Some will fail-negative but eventually a known
criminal WILL be positively identified.

Now, for the few cases of positive failure (identification of an individual
as someone they are not) this is rare, and chances are that the next camera
approach or even the next frame sequence will not fail-positive in this way.

A policy of requiring 2-3 separate identifications of a criminal before an
arrest is attempted will reduce the mis-arrest % to negligibly small.

MJD




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 09:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 08:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHOEFMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <024801c1f2ad$7d8d22b0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> > Was that really necessary?
> > 
> 
> Yes it really was FUCKING necessary?


It was not. 

Please go away.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 09:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 08:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Today's Haiku
Message-ID: <200205031512.FNU07726@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I see the f word
Sometimes again and again
It's not very bright

I like an ObTrav
The F word is not Canon
I'm sure you agree

________________
Watching programs run
Endless hours of debugging
Lightning flash outside

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 09:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri May  3 08:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Today's Haiku
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36A9@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

ROFLMAO!!!  I had a feeling that would be the topic John :)

Very Best,
Jesse




I see the f word
Sometimes again and again
It's not very bright

I like an ObTrav
The F word is not Canon
I'm sure you agree


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 09:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 08:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Well, piracy is alive and well in this universe
Message-ID: <200205031518.FNV00352@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Just read a story about some speedboats that tried to 
intercept a US Navy oiler in the Persian Gulf.

Nothing like a .50 cal machinegun to get someone's attention.

ObTrav: Considering the expense that a single good hit on a 
ship can cost, would a pirate necessarily break off his 
attack if it looked like the "victim" was armed well enough 
to cause damage?  In the RU case, a .50 cal is more than 
enough to shred a speedboat.  In CT, a single hit can end up 
costing millions of credits.
________________
Watching programs run
Endless hours of debugging
Lightning flash outside

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 09:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Fri May  3 08:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Today's Haiku (from Jeff)
In-Reply-To: <200205031512.FNU07726@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020503152037.71094.qmail@web13306.mail.yahoo.com>

TML reading
Interesting subjects there,
Wish my job had them.

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 09:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Fri May  3 08:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Well, piracy is alive and well in this universe
Message-ID: <OF8EF2DD20.6B1648A9-ON85256BAE.00552DD9@pheaa.org>

can we get a URL to the story?

Bill


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 09:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 08:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHOEFMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <022301c1f2ab$761d84e0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> > Was that really necessary?
> >
>
> Yes it really was FUCKING necessary?
>
> If I could travel through time, I would take with me 3 bats.
> 1 made from heavy rubber.
> 1 made from hard plastic
> 1 made from aluminum.
> I would travel through time to moments when some leader
> came up with his brilliant but truly stupid idea that
> fucked up the world just that much more for the rest of us.
> I'd pop in just as he finished his imbecilic statement,
> and I'd whack him in the back of the head with one of the bats.
> Then I'd pop back out. That Alabama fool would get the rubber one.

To repeat: this is not a political forum. Please take this sort of
opinionated drivel off the list. It is offensive and serves no real purpose.

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 09:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 08:39:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Well, piracy is alive and well in this universe
Message-ID: <200205031538.FNW02902@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"William Lane" asks
>can we get a URL to the story?
>

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020503-85196840.htm

________________
Watching programs run
Endless hours of debugging
Lightning flash outside

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 09:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 08:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <023a01c1f2ad$5f4f96c0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

It being late in the day, I ponder....

We've just released the first official CT product in *HOW MANY???* years. To
zero response. No fuss, no hatefest like GURPS created (I was a target of
that particular barrage, but at least it was a response!). Nothing.

This worries me.

T20 is designed to bring in a whole bunch of new people to the Traveller
genre. All our products have to be T20 compatible, but we can support CT
too. This is a grand opportunity to get CT books (yes, books, in print), on
the FLGS shelves once again.

But I wonder, should we bother? Does anyone care? Other than the six or so
people who responded to my posts over the past few days, nobody seems to
have reacted to TA#1 etc at all.

So; if only as a way of increasing the Signal-to-Sears ratio, how about a
debate topic: The Future of CT - do you want QLI to support the CT line, or
should we not bother wasting our efforts?


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 09:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May  3 08:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <023a01c1f2ad$5f4f96c0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503114632.00b817e0@urbin.net>

At 03:17 PM 5/3/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>It being late in the day, I ponder....
>We've just released the first official CT product in *HOW MANY???* years. To
>zero response. No fuss, no hatefest like GURPS created (I was a target of
>that particular barrage, but at least it was a response!). Nothing.
[snip]

Ok...The Navy Foil.  According to TA#1, the IN Officers Dress uniform 
includes a foil.
The IM Dress uniform has it's traditional Cutlass and certain IA units have 
a Cavalry Saber as part of theirs.

The foil, which is also described as a 'privilege of rank' for nobles, 
seems a wee bit pretentious to me.
Anybody feel this way?

Although it doesn't state it, I would put forth that the IN Enlisted Dress 
Uniform includes a cutlass.
The foil is reserved for Commissioned Officers.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503114632.00b817e0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <029601c1f2ba$a3ed20b0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Urbin" <eclipse@urbin.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Concerns


> At 03:17 PM 5/3/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> >It being late in the day, I ponder....
> >We've just released the first official CT product in *HOW MANY???* years.
To
> >zero response. No fuss, no hatefest like GURPS created (I was a target of
> >that particular barrage, but at least it was a response!). Nothing.
> [snip]
>
> Ok...The Navy Foil.  According to TA#1, the IN Officers Dress uniform
> includes a foil.
> The IM Dress uniform has it's traditional Cutlass and certain IA units
have
> a Cavalry Saber as part of theirs.
>
> The foil, which is also described as a 'privilege of rank' for nobles,
> seems a wee bit pretentious to me.
> Anybody feel this way?
>
> Although it doesn't state it, I would put forth that the IN Enlisted Dress
> Uniform includes a cutlass.
> The foil is reserved for Commissioned Officers.

I've always assumed that. Cutlasses for marines and enlisted. Officers carry
a navy foil.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 09:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matt Ashley)
Date: Fri May  3 08:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] taxes
In-Reply-To: <20020503154030.6BB5627A03@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020503155708.62854.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com>

> Since you support this horrifically stupid idea, you can pay 10%.
> Yours, mine, and the eight other people I've talked to who think
> the idea is abominable.
> 
> It's because of that same stupid mentality that we pay 50% of our
> incomes in taxes!!! And what do we get to show for our tax money?
> 
> More stupid laws the take away our civil liberties.
> War on drugs. LOST
> War on illiteracy. LOST
> A foreign policy that turned part of my city to rubble,
> and causes roughly half the world to hate America.
> Tens of thousands killed in Afghanistan, but missed Bin Laden!
> 
> And here's what's coming next:
> A 1% tax on all fitness equipment to support school Physical Education.
> A 1% tax on all violent shows and movies to support the police department.
> A 1% tax on all pornography to fight teen pregnancy.
> A 1% tax on ALL books to combat the war on illiteracy.
> (Sci-Fi fans pay double)
> A 1% tax on food to support agricultural research.
> A 1% tax on computers to support the Internet.
> A 1% tax on candy to support dental research.
> A 1% tax on music to support the performing arts.
> A 1% tax on guns to support the military.
> A 1% tax on housing to support the homeless.
> A 1% tax on cars and gas to support the fight air pollution.
> A 1% tax on cars and gas to support the promote highway safety.
> A 1% air travel to support airline safety.
> (Too late on that one!)
> A 1% tax on water to support the EPA.
> A 1% tax on oil to pay for new Alaskan drilling.
> A 1% tax on all electrical appliances to support the Department of Energy.
> A 10% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support SETI.
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support NASA.
> (Traveller players pay twice)
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support fusion research.
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support the Atomic Energy
> Commission.
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support Army weapons
> research.
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support psychiatric research.
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support gravimetrics.
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support physics.
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support astronomy.
> A 10% tax on Traveller games and supplements to research how people with
> IQ's in the top 5% of the population can think that new taxes are a good
> thing, and how we can use this information to fool "all of the people, all
> of the time".
> 
> -Shawn R Sears-
>
Actually, our great politicians in California are pondering a tax on sugared sodas to combat obese
children!

Matt Ashley

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 09:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri May  3 08:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36AC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Haven't gotten around to buying it, but I plan too :)  I'll let you know then ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: MJ Dougherty [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 7:18 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Concerns



It being late in the day, I ponder....

We've just released the first official CT product in *HOW MANY???* years. To
zero response. No fuss, no hatefest like GURPS created (I was a target of
that particular barrage, but at least it was a response!). Nothing.

This worries me.

T20 is designed to bring in a whole bunch of new people to the Traveller
genre. All our products have to be T20 compatible, but we can support CT
too. This is a grand opportunity to get CT books (yes, books, in print), on
the FLGS shelves once again.

But I wonder, should we bother? Does anyone care? Other than the six or so
people who responded to my posts over the past few days, nobody seems to
have reacted to TA#1 etc at all.

So; if only as a way of increasing the Signal-to-Sears ratio, how about a
debate topic: The Future of CT - do you want QLI to support the CT line, or
should we not bother wasting our efforts?


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri May  3 09:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503114632.00b817e0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <20020503160125.28169.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> wrote:
> At 03:17 PM 5/3/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> >It being late in the day, I ponder....
> >We've just released the first official CT product
> in *HOW MANY???* years. To
> >zero response. No fuss, no hatefest like GURPS
> created (I was a target of
> >that particular barrage, but at least it was a
> response!). Nothing.
> [snip]
 Okay,also,maybe someone's asked this already. Same
character classes and aliens right? Any alien
generators? Same character creation process? I really
liked the process in the lbbs that focused on
particular carreers, such as High Guard and Mercenary.
I liked the detail there, as opposed to later
editions.


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri May  3 09:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <023a01c1f2ad$5f4f96c0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEPIDMAA.tml@downport.com>

As a true die hard CT person, perhaps I am an example? I looked, I liked, I
bought a subscription. I spoke with my wallet (well, credit card). Not
particularly liking "me too" posts, I refrained from posting one. I didn't
know I was supposed to get mad about something. Actually, I'd tend to be
more vocal about YAFRS* being published than having a new product for MPV**.
I'll flame you when t20 is published, okay? Besides, I consider every
supplement and adventure to be a CT product, cuz dats how I use 'em.

-Crusty


*YAFRS = yet another flippin rules set
**MPV = my preferred version

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MJ Dougherty
>
> We've just released the first official CT product in *HOW
> MANY???* years. To
> zero response. No fuss, no hatefest like GURPS created (I was a target of
> that particular barrage, but at least it was a response!). Nothing.
>
> This worries me.
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:03:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 09:03:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <200205031602.FNW06515@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" writes
>This worries me.
>
The TML and its response is hardly a measure of the 
marketability of a product.  We're all a bunch of hard to 
please types, so take it as a compliment if people aren't 
nitpicking the product to death.  Also, a lot of people on 
the list are authors (published or unpublished) in their own 
right.  I get the impression that supplements to CT have to 
come across *big* like that Transhuman supplement to get 
anyone's attention.

>T20 is designed to bring in a whole bunch of new people to 
>the Traveller genre. All our products have to be T20 
>compatible, but we can support CT too. This is a grand 
>opportunity to get CT books (yes, books, in print), on
>the FLGS shelves once again.
>
I do care. Unfortunately, the product I'm looking for is a 
new and improved CT, not a change in the dice.  I don't want 
CT as an appendage to another gaming system.  That, and *no* 
game system I've seen after CT gives me the combat system 
that the game deserves.  I can't even say that ACQ is more 
than a minor improvement (sorry, Doug, it's better, but not 
all the way there).  But then, I'm a hard to please type.

>But I wonder, should we bother? Does anyone care? Other than 
>the six or so people who responded to my posts over the past 
>few days, nobody seems to have reacted to TA#1 etc at all.
>
Yes, you should bother, and yes, we do care.  Why else would 
I be writing a combat system that has no chance of being 
modified for use with GURPS or T20?

>So; if only as a way of increasing the Signal-to-Sears 
>ratio, how about a debate topic: The Future of CT - do you 
>want QLI to support the CT line, or should we not bother 
>wasting our efforts?
>
Jerry Pournelle said that to be a successful writer, you have 
to write and write and write.  Most of your stuff won't be 
published, or if it is, noticed by the general public.  
Continue to publish long enough, and you get to be "canon".  
I'm sure that Loren could tell you that not everything that 
GDW published over the years received the "big hurrah".  But 
after all that time and effort, the people on the TML have a 
reverence for "canon".  And isn't that what the writer of 
these games is striving for?  Not general acceptance, but the 
permanent codification of what are essentially proposed rules 
and background.

I think that if we want to get more of this product line out 
there, we have to do the Pokemon league thing at every game 
store we can find.  There's a large game store in my area, 
and I've thought of doing free CT campaigning once a week, 
training young GMs and getting a "league" started.  If I buy 
T20, that's one sale.  But if you did the "league" thing, you 
would sell a lot more, and plant the seeds of your 
own "canon".
________________
Watching programs run
Endless hours of debugging
Lightning flash outside

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Fri May  3 09:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <023a01c1f2ad$5f4f96c0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020503110222.04b66a00@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

Well, actually, being a nit, I spotted the Quiklink charge on my credit 
card statement, forgot what it was, and called the folks up to find out who 
had nicked my CC#....

...Only to discover I was talking to fellow CT fans, who REALLY WANTED to 
know what I thought.

It's a great piece of work.  It'll fit quite nicely into my game.  I like 
Traveller Aide #1, and I am looking forward to future releases - and I 
particularly like the fact that it is cross-platform (t20 and CT).  Longer 
review will follow.

Victor

At 03:17 PM 5/3/02 +0100, you wrote:

>It being late in the day, I ponder....
>
>We've just released the first official CT product in *HOW MANY???* years. To
>zero response. No fuss, no hatefest like GURPS created (I was a target of
>that particular barrage, but at least it was a response!). Nothing.
>
>This worries me.
>
>T20 is designed to bring in a whole bunch of new people to the Traveller
>genre. All our products have to be T20 compatible, but we can support CT
>too. This is a grand opportunity to get CT books (yes, books, in print), on
>the FLGS shelves once again.
>
>But I wonder, should we bother? Does anyone care? Other than the six or so
>people who responded to my posts over the past few days, nobody seems to
>have reacted to TA#1 etc at all.
>
>So; if only as a way of increasing the Signal-to-Sears ratio, how about a
>debate topic: The Future of CT - do you want QLI to support the CT line, or
>should we not bother wasting our efforts?
>
>
>Martin J Dougherty
>Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
>www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri May  3 09:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Flaming Trolls
In-Reply-To: <20020503134903.63001.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020503161649.80025.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>


> 
> What NPC's do you have in your Traveller Universe
> that
> are either (a) simply there to be obnoxious, or (b)
> irritatingly humorous.  I'm thinking of people like
> the Joe Pesci(sp) character from the Leathal Weapon
> movies.
I have  Instellarms representatives  that hang out on
the more lawless worlds and try to peddle hardware.
They dress in period clothing, my current one dresses
in early 1900's British army fatigues(jungle warfare I
think)travels via grav belt and is always at hand when
things get hairy.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May  3 09:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
In-Reply-To: <20020503230534.C4543@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020442972.54.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> > Terrain following sensors (TF: 570, NOE: 190).
> 
> I'm trying to picture this 300 metre smiley ball zooming over the
> treetops.  Nope, it just won't fit in my head... besides, with that
> amount of armour, who *cares* where the terrain is?  ;)

Well, it's mostly there because the competition has it.  I must say that NOE at
less than one diameter is sort of silly.

> > 6 / 6.2 Maneuver (Thruster: 2249800 MW)
> 
> Not HEPlaR, I hope.  I really don't want to know how much exhaust
> energy comes out of this thing if it's HEPlaR!

Nope, not HEPlaR.
> 
> > 12 power (Fusion: 6,000,000MW, 1 yr)
> 
> Hmm -- for perfect black-body radiation, I get a surface temperature
> of 4400 K.  I wonder how long it takes to cool down before people can
> use the airlocks?  ;)

Just normal FFS2 radiators.  1 square meter per gigawatt if unstealthy
(11,500k), 2 square meters per gigawatt if basic masking (probably just as hot,
but slightly directional).

> I'm going to have to see how it turns out in GURPS Vehicles now... :)

Probably not as dense, but more armor and weapon.  Assuming the standard DR
70/inch (DR 28/mm) for steel, T4 armor is armor 2.8/mm, so 1 point of T4 armor
is DR 10.  DR 47,100 is not that impressive in GURPS Traveller.  GURPS weapons
are similarly upscaled.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 09:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <20020503160125.28169.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02ad01c1f2bf$38924570$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>  Okay,also,maybe someone's asked this already. Same
> character classes and aliens right? Any alien
> generators? Same character creation process? I really
> liked the process in the lbbs that focused on
> particular carreers, such as High Guard and Mercenary.
> I liked the detail there, as opposed to later
> editions.
>


The chargen system uses a prior history, with changes in career possible as
you go. Served terms are worth experience = levels = skills.

You can have mishaps, get promoted, get cash bonuses, demoted or flung in
jail during a period in a career.

So yes, chargen parallels the traditional CT system.

There's some aliens (Vargr and such) but a full chargen - for - xenophiles
system will be done in an Aliens book later in the product line.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:27:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri May  3 09:27:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Today's Haiku
In-Reply-To: <200205031512.FNU07726@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205030925180.16172-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 3 May 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> I see the f word
> Sometimes again and again
> It's not very bright

Why are we blaming the poor "F" word, a perfectly good word in some
situations and one I've used to great effect, for the fact that Shawn's
not bright enough to use it correctly?

And how is it I know he's ranting again in spite of my killfile?
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:29:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 09:29:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEPIDMAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <02b401c1f2bf$60dc4c10$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> As a true die hard CT person, perhaps I am an example? I looked, I liked,
I
> bought a subscription. I spoke with my wallet (well, credit card). Not
> particularly liking "me too" posts, I refrained from posting one. I didn't
> know I was supposed to get mad about something. Actually, I'd tend to be
> more vocal about YAFRS* being published than having a new product for
MPV**.
> I'll flame you when t20 is published, okay? Besides, I consider every
> supplement and adventure to be a CT product, cuz dats how I use 'em.

I'll look forward to the flames!

Actually it's not a lack of flames that worried me, but a lack of any sort
of reaction.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 09:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <200205031602.FNW06515@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <02bb01c1f2bf$f27b80a0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> "MJ Dougherty" writes
> >This worries me.
> >
> The TML and its response is hardly a measure of the
> marketability of a product.  We're all a bunch of hard to
> please types, so take it as a compliment if people aren't
> nitpicking the product to death.  Also, a lot of people on
> the list are authors (published or unpublished) in their own
> right.  I get the impression that supplements to CT have to
> come across *big* like that Transhuman supplement to get
> anyone's attention.

Okay, I see that. But as said elsewhere... the complete lack of interest I
was perceiving was worrying me.

>
> >T20 is designed to bring in a whole bunch of new people to
> >the Traveller genre. All our products have to be T20
> >compatible, but we can support CT too. This is a grand
> >opportunity to get CT books (yes, books, in print), on
> >the FLGS shelves once again.
> >
> I do care. Unfortunately, the product I'm looking for is a
> new and improved CT, not a change in the dice.  I don't want
> CT as an appendage to another gaming system.  That, and *no*
> game system I've seen after CT gives me the combat system
> that the game deserves.  I can't even say that ACQ is more
> than a minor improvement (sorry, Doug, it's better, but not
> all the way there).  But then, I'm a hard to please type.

I personally don't rate the CT combat system as all; I use a variant of T4
with MT type penetration. But hey, variety is pepper. Or something.

>
> >But I wonder, should we bother? Does anyone care? Other than
> >the six or so people who responded to my posts over the past
> >few days, nobody seems to have reacted to TA#1 etc at all.
> >
> Yes, you should bother, and yes, we do care.  Why else would
> I be writing a combat system that has no chance of being
> modified for use with GURPS or T20?
>
> >So; if only as a way of increasing the Signal-to-Sears
> >ratio, how about a debate topic: The Future of CT - do you
> >want QLI to support the CT line, or should we not bother
> >wasting our efforts?
> >
> Jerry Pournelle said that to be a successful writer, you have
> to write and write and write.  Most of your stuff won't be
> published, or if it is, noticed by the general public.
> Continue to publish long enough, and you get to be "canon".
> I'm sure that Loren could tell you that not everything that
> GDW published over the years received the "big hurrah".  But
> after all that time and effort, the people on the TML have a
> reverence for "canon".  And isn't that what the writer of
> these games is striving for?  Not general acceptance, but the
> permanent codification of what are essentially proposed rules
> and background.

Yeah. I see this. Point is, we've made a conscious decision to support CT -
that means extra work and costs - If the CT fans aren't interested, then we
needn't bother. It's important to know.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May  3 09:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503114632.00b817e0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <B8F809C0.5962D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 8:51 AM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:
> 
> Ok...The Navy Foil.  According to TA#1, the IN Officers Dress uniform
> includes a foil.
> The IM Dress uniform has it's traditional Cutlass and certain IA units have
> a Cavalry Saber as part of theirs.
> 
> The foil, which is also described as a 'privilege of rank' for nobles,
> seems a wee bit pretentious to me.
> Anybody feel this way?
> 
> Although it doesn't state it, I would put forth that the IN Enlisted Dress
> Uniform includes a cutlass.
> The foil is reserved for Commissioned Officers.


Foil!?  The foil is a fencing weapon, not a serious sword.  The weapon for
the navy should be the smallsword.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 09:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <B8F809C0.5962D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <02d101c1f2c0$ce6c6f20$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Foil!?  The foil is a fencing weapon, not a serious sword.  The weapon for
> the navy should be the smallsword.

The Traveller foil is basically a smallsword with an edge.

Historically, there never was a weapon called a "foil". A "foiled rapier"
(i.e. one that had been blunted and rebated for practice) is the weapon in
Hamlet.

The smallsword/court sword/walking sword is the closest parallel of the
modern fleuret/foil, but there is no direct ancestor.

Traveller foils are a little more robust than fencing foils of C21 terra.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 09:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Today's Haiku
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205030925180.16172-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <02d401c1f2c0$f3528a40$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> not bright enough to use it correctly?
> 
> And how is it I know he's ranting again in spite of my killfile?


Could someone invent a seek-and-destroy file? That would be better


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri May  3 09:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #466 - 18 msgs
References: <3CD31323.1220.BFC3F6@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CD2BDA9.70409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On 2 May 2002 at 23:47, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> 
>>I myself own a Commission Mauser (gewehr 88) with Turkish sight markings and 
>>a German arsenal stamp (Lowe) dated 1890. Still shootable provided one 
>>exercises care with the loads.
> 
> 
> That would've been for black powder at that time, wouldn't it?
> 

Nah, by 1890 they were using smokeless powders. IIRC the transition 
between black and smokeless took place mostly in the 1880's and Mauser 
was one of the manufacturers leading the charge.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:42:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri May  3 09:42:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <023a01c1f2ad$5f4f96c0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEFODPAA.carlino@cox.net>

My FLGS hasn't got it yet. I'll certainly be looking for it.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MJ Dougherty
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 10:18 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Concerns


It being late in the day, I ponder....

We've just released the first official CT product in *HOW MANY???* years. To
zero response. No fuss, no hatefest like GURPS created (I was a target of
that particular barrage, but at least it was a response!). Nothing.

This worries me.

T20 is designed to bring in a whole bunch of new people to the Traveller
genre. All our products have to be T20 compatible, but we can support CT
too. This is a grand opportunity to get CT books (yes, books, in print), on
the FLGS shelves once again.

But I wonder, should we bother? Does anyone care? Other than the six or so
people who responded to my posts over the past few days, nobody seems to
have reacted to TA#1 etc at all.

So; if only as a way of increasing the Signal-to-Sears ratio, how about a
debate topic: The Future of CT - do you want QLI to support the CT line, or
should we not bother wasting our efforts?


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:43:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May  3 09:43:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
In-Reply-To: <3CD1DAE3.D2A2DEDA@premier.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020444087.7031.ajackson@ping>

John Groth writes:

> The only problem with the spiral (toroidal?) PAW mount is that _any_
> damage to the weapon knocks it completely out.

Which, depending on your system, may or may not be an interesting statement. 
In MCS, for example, one hit on a PAW mount generally reduces its damage by
enough that it can't hurt enemy battleships, so it might as well have been
taken out.

> While this appears so on the surface, it should be noted that HFB
> requires far more skilled crewbeings (27,817 total crew) than either
> _Shiva_ (19,744 total crew) or _Recurrent Glory_ (15,260 total crew). 
> The additional costs associated with the larger crew required by HFB
> will eat up at least some of the money saved on the base purchase price.

The extra 8,073 crew probably have a combined salary of less than Cr 1B/year
(125 kCr/person).  At that rate, it would take more than 200 years to make up
for the additional 214,601 MCr cost of the Shiva.  Similar numbers apply to the
Recurrent Glory; it has even lower crew, but has higher costs by a similar
margin.
> 
> We at AuricTech are pleased to note that some of our design innovations,
> such as individual staterooms for all crewbeings, Combat Information
> Centers and crew lounges are being adopted by other shipyards. 
Was tempted to leave out a lot of the secondaries, technically stuff like crew
lounges is included in staterooms, which is why they're so large.  2
dtons/crewmember is a pretty standard Traveller occupancy rate.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 09:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <200205031643.FNY04501@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>Yeah. I see this. Point is, we've made a conscious decision 
>to support CT - that means extra work and costs - If the CT 
>fans aren't interested, then we needn't bother. It's 
>important to know.
>

I go to the local gaming store once a week.  I usually ask 
what's selling (the store is quite large) as far as RPGs go.  
And I look on the shelves.  There is also a shelf for what I 
call "rotten meat" (games that are marked down to a dollar 
because no one will touch them).

The dominant sales (by what the store says, and by what they 
stock the most of) are GURPS and Rifts.  There are a few 
newcomers (new publications) here and there in the store, and 
a place for the CT reprints.  But if I took GURPS and Rifts 
out of the store, they would be reduced to a couple of 
shelves of assorted pubs.  Short shelves.

The dominant weekend gaming sessions at that store are 
massive Warhammer battles.

Selling Traveller stuff to TMLers strikes me the same as 
selling Bibles to die-hard Baptists.  You know they already 
own a Bible, and they'll buy at least one more.  But you have 
to go get converts.  From that perspective, if you run with a 
background that is already deep and rich (like fertile soil), 
and you then go make converts the way that the various card 
leagues do at stores across the world, your investment in 
good ol' CT will have been worth it.

Everyone on this list should consider "teaching CT (or your 
particular flavor of Traveller)and teaching GMing" at their 
local game store.  Not to each other!  Go forth and convert!  
Get kids to sign up and play!  Get kids to write their own 
adventures!  

Set aside an hour a weekend to do this.  Want to see sales go 
up?  
________________
Watching programs run
Endless hours of debugging
Lightning flash outside

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:45:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 09:45:30 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <02e401c1f2c1$dd075620$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Sears makes trollish noise
Killfiles fill with his flamebait 
Welcome to the List



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 10:47:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 09:47:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020503110222.04b66a00@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <02c001c1f2c0$5a9129b0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Well, actually, being a nit, I spotted the Quiklink charge on my credit
> card statement, forgot what it was, and called the folks up to find out
who
> had nicked my CC#....

Wow. You're almost as dumb as me ("An interview? Great. Can you tell me what
job I applied for please?")

>
> ...Only to discover I was talking to fellow CT fans, who REALLY WANTED to
> know what I thought.
>
> It's a great piece of work.  It'll fit quite nicely into my game.  I like
> Traveller Aide #1, and I am looking forward to future releases - and I
> particularly like the fact that it is cross-platform (t20 and CT).  Longer
> review will follow.

That's nice to hear.

We're talking to some hardcore CT fans about writing CT adventures (with T20
stats, yes...). I want to know if it's worth their time and ours.

Maybe it is....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 11:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May  3 10:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #466 - 18 msgs
In-Reply-To: <3CD2BDA9.70409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B8F811E0.5982C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 9:41 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

> 
> Nah, by 1890 they were using smokeless powders. IIRC the transition
> between black and smokeless took place mostly in the 1880's and Mauser
> was one of the manufacturers leading the charge.

But the Commission rifle model was not a Mauser design, but a terrible
committee created version of the Mannlicher.  In services it laster less
than 10 years, quickly replaced by the superior, Mauser designed Gewehr 98.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 11:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Fri May  3 10:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <OFD58CA959.665B5751-ON85256BAE.005DEEEC@pheaa.org>







It being late in the day, I ponder....

<snip>


AAKK no interest!?!?

All i play is CT. and for the first time i got new things coming out for
said system. don't stop! don't stop! please for the love of all that's Holy
don't stop!

I'm sorry i have not said anything please please don't punish me any more 8
(

I am just waiting for it to hit the shelves so i can buy it.

Here is what i want if i get some sort of input.

gear. toys. shiny baubles the chars can buy with there credits. the
equipment list is so poor in ct that i have to make up stuff as i go for
them to buy. if i had a book with a 1001 different items for them to buy it
would be great. not just gear to do things but you know stuff to put in
their rooms on board ship.

credit card size bose stereos with 10000 song memory.

grav skates

small entertainment bots

ect..

ect..

but what ever you do don't stop!

Ill build a bronze statue to you. 12 feet tall with CT books at your feet
and your hand outstretched to the future if you don't stop!

Bill Lane

Begging on his knees




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 11:20:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Fri May  3 10:20:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns - long
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36AC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <20020503171943.17355.qmail@web13301.mail.yahoo.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: MJ Dougherty [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]
> Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 7:18 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Concerns
> 
> 
> 
> It being late in the day, I ponder....
> 
> We've just released the first official CT product in
> *HOW MANY???* years. To
> zero response. No fuss, no hatefest like GURPS
> created (I was a target of
> that particular barrage, but at least it was a
> response!). Nothing.
> 
> This worries me.
> 
> T20 is designed to bring in a whole bunch of new
> people to the Traveller
> genre. All our products have to be T20 compatible,
> but we can support CT
> too. This is a grand opportunity to get CT books
> (yes, books, in print), on
> the FLGS shelves once again.
> 
> But I wonder, should we bother? Does anyone care?
> Other than the six or so
> people who responded to my posts over the past few
> days, nobody seems to
> have reacted to TA#1 etc at all.
> 
> So; if only as a way of increasing the
> Signal-to-Sears ratio, how about a
> debate topic: The Future of CT - do you want QLI to
> support the CT line, or
> should we not bother wasting our efforts?
> 
> 
> Martin J Dougherty
> Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
> Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
> www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


IMHO, there are two important things to consider.

1) ANY product which is an aspect of Traveller should
support CT for no other reason than that it will reach
a larger market share than if it were only set for one
game system. I know of many GMs who hate the GURPS
system, but who will buy the supplements because they
are excellent reference works. Making the product
compatible with and supportible of CT will cause it to
be desired by a larger number of possible customers.
That will increase QuickLink Interactive's economic
viability.

2) d20 game systems are going to be facing problems.
 A) With the Open Gaming Liscense in full effect now,
there is a glut of d20 games out there. The latest
that I can see at my local game stores includes d20
Call of Cthulhu. The feedback that I am hearing from
other players is best summed up with the quote, "It's
not worthy." 
 To keep T20 from becoming "just another d20
spin-off", there has to be something more to it.
Something that adds to the Traveller universe and
expands it as a usable background for the long-term
players. Perhaps another setting that uses the rules
as a generic system to apply to a different
non-Imperium Traveller universe for new players (Gotta
admit, one of the reasons that I like CT and T4 is
that they are generic enough that I can use them in
creating MTU).
 B) I have playtested the T20 system, while not listed
on the credits for the game (this isn't a big deal to
me, so don't get offended - I didn't provide much
feedback anyways) I have used the rules and ran a few
sessions. It is a credit to the d20 system family. I
found very little that was wrong with it that wasn't
corrected in the design process.
 I have also played and run DnD3 and d20 Star Wars
campaigns over the past year-and-a-half.
 There are fundamental flaws within the d20 system
itself, again IMHO. The d20 system is overly
complicated to new players (When running Star Wars it
showed up dramatically when I had players mutiny as
the ones who had used the old d6 system voted that we
go back to using it). Several players have said that
the d20 system reminds them of Rolemaster, or
RuleMonster as they put it. For new players, it is
best to use a simple, elegant system instead of one as
complicated as d20. This will put T20 at a significant
disadvantage when it comes to attracting new gamers
into Traveller itself.

Yes, QuickLink Interactive should definitely support
CT as well as T20 for the above reasons.

Jeff M. Hopper

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 11:29:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri May  3 10:29:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHKEFNCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEGADPAA.carlino@cox.net>

> Robert A. Uhl writes:
>> > On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people, I think it
>> > > would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
>> > > bathing and sanitation...
>> >
>
>Bad Idea!
>The government will collect 10 million in taxes,
>and give out 3 million in subsidies.
>
>-Shawn-

The government is already doing this in one form or another if you live in a
big urban area. Like roads and power the government has always subsidized
such things, to a point of sharing the cost with users. In many cases the
government subsidies are not obvious, but they are there.

To ramble as I typically do: Take roads and the issue of public
transportation. In the U.S. public transport, be it Amtrak or local public
transport the critics always complain that it must pay for itself. In the
states most places don't have public transport because the claim is that it
must pay for itself.

No one requires car and truck traffic to do that. Sure road and gas taxes
pay for a lot of it. But seldom is the total cost of use of the automobile
included in the mix. Who includes the extra police services necessary to
enforce traffic laws, the traffic courts, the cost of traffic enforcement
devices, and such things in the cost calculation? Then there is the
environmental impact, enforcement in weights and measures (of gas sale
devices, etc) etc.

If the user of an automobile had to pay their share of the true cost no one
but the very rich would be able to afford a car.

Electrification is another example. The only reason that almost all of the
U.S; is electrified was the existence of the Rural Electrification Act,
which required the utilities to carry power to the hinterlands.  That is why
many other countries still only have electricity in the cities.

One of the reason business is so successful in the U.S. is that the
governments (Federal, state, local) help business by giving them an
environment where they can be successful. One of the reason small business
often doesn't feel this way is that the government assistance often is much
more helpful to big business than to small business.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 11:32:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May  3 10:32:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1020444087.7031.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020447105.3145.ajackson@ping>

For what it's worth: here's the Battle Rider equivalent to a Happy Fun Ball. 
Has all the non-jump capabilities of the Happy Fun Ball.  Biggest challenges
were area (it has 12 square meters left) and the meson gun (a 250M mount
doesn't fit.  Oddly enough, the 'spinal mount' is the meson gun, the primary
weapon is classed as a parallel mount).

Whether the cost reduction is worthwhile is a question for the bean counters;
there are not insignificant costs to building a carrier.

Tons: 400,000std(SL Sphere Hyper)   Crew: 16,566/19,242
Volume: 5,600,000 m^3               Passengers Med/Hi/Lo: 0/0/0
Mass (L/C): 7,588,422T/7,344,262T   Troops/Science: 0/0
Dimensions: 220M diameter           Frozen Watch: 2,000
Size: 11                            Cargo: 15,000 std(200Hat,200x50T)
Cost: 611,503 MCr (Cost Mul x1)     Maint Points: 206,012

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard Automation.  100 x FltComp (CM: .2 CP:
    5.0). 20 x FibComp (CM: .2 CP: 5.0).  Terrain following sensors
    (TF: 570, NOE: 190). Bridge.
Communications: 20 x Radio (1,000 AU, 0.2 MW). 100 x Laser (1,000 AU, 0
    MW). 5 X Meson (1,000 AU, 5 MW).
Sensors: 1 x PEMS (15 [500 mkm], 5 MW). 1xAEMS (13 [16 mkm] LP, 500 MW).
    16 x LIDAR (15 [2 mkm], 2.5 MW).
Survey/Science: 1 x Densiometer (9.5 [1600 km]). 1 x Neutrino (9 [500 km],
    20 MW).
ECM: 2 x Radio Jammer (1,000 AU, 0.4 MW). 1 x Area Jammer (12, 625 MW).
    1 x Deceptive Jammer (13, 12.5 MW). 1 x Passive Jammer (16, 6.25 MW).
Signatures: Vis: 0.5, IR: 1.5(1 at 6,000,000MW), Act: 1, Neu: 2, Grav: 2

Performance: 
6 / 6.2 Maneuver (Thruster: 1,134,000 MW)
No Contra-grav
5000 kph/5000 kph Atmosphere Maximum
3750 kph/3750 kph Atmosphere Cruise
24 power (Fusion: 4,880,000MW, 1 yr)
0 battery
34,857 Fuel (Scoop: 2 / Purif: 250, 59 MW)
18000/2000/2000 Accomdations (SmStRoom/LgStRoom/Low Berth
120,000 Life Sup (Type: Standard, Normal Food/Storage)
6 G-Comp
100 x sandcaster (AV: 100, 40 x canister ea, arranged in 20 x bty)
24 x nuclear damper turret (5 MW, Range: 50,000 km, arranged in 6 x bty)
500 Damper Screen (331 MW)
2000 Meson Screen (10,000 MW)
180 [4710] Armor, 59 Structure

Weapons:
6 x Beam MFD (500000 km)
6 x Missile MFD (500000 km)
200 x 70 MJ Laser Turret Battery (+6) 1/9-9-6-4 [16, 100/21-21-10-5] (SR)
    Point defense ROF: 800
100 x 400 MJ Medium Laser Turret (+6) 1/6-4-2-0 [2, 800/50-25-13-6] (LR)
50 x 750 MJ Heavy Laser Turret (+6) 1/4-2-0-0 [1, 800/68-36-17-9] (LR)
10 x 750 MJ Heavy Laser Bay (+6) 1/11-11-11-11[4, 800/68-68-68-68] (LR)
25 x Msl Can 40/3 (/Mag 0 /Mfd 500,000 km) w/40 Command DL 1d6/2 6G12 1000AU
1 x 110 GJ Spinal Meson (+6) 2/16-12-10-7 [1, 800/2141-1024-513-256] (LR)
2 x 14.4 GJ 8 Lap Parallel PAW(+6) 2/16-16-16-16 [1, 400/1433-1433-1433-1433]
1 x 100 GJ 25 Las Spinal PAW(+6) 2/24-24-24-24 [1, 200/5033-5033-5033-5033]

Features:
4000 x Airlock
1 x Docking Umbilical
80 x Electronic Shop (6 std ea.)
200 x Machine Shop (10 std ea.)
100 x Sickbay (8 std ea.)
120 x Prisoner Capacity (80 x LowSec, 20 x MedSec, 20 x HiSec)
1 x Ship's locker (500 std)
100 x Armory (5 std ea.)
200 x Gym (2.5 std ea.)
25 x Lounge (200 std ea.)
1 x Combat Information Center (466 std)
25 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 1,000)
25 x Full Galley (Cap: 120)

Small Craft:
30 x Minimal Hangar (100 std ea, 10 x Hatch)
10 x Spacious Hangar(100 std ea, 10 x Hatch)
2 x Launch Tube (100 std ea)

Backups:
Sensors: 4 x PEMS (14.5 [160 mkm)), 4 x AEMS (12.5 [5 mkm])
Power and Fuel: Fusion (100,000 MW)

Crew Details: 11 x Maneuver. 9 x Electronics. 13364 x Engineer. 548 x
Maintenance. 1320 x Gunner. 54 x Screen. 500 x Troops.  2634 x Command.
158 x Medical.  644 x Steward.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 11:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May  3 10:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Flaming Trolls
In-Reply-To: <20020503161649.80025.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020503134903.63001.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503133542.00b817e0@urbin.net>

At 09:16 AM 5/3/02 -0700, Daniel Tackett wrote:
> > What NPC's do you have in your Traveller Universe
> > that
> > are either (a) simply there to be obnoxious, or (b)
> > irritatingly humorous.  I'm thinking of people like
> > the Joe Pesci(sp) character from the Leathal Weapon
> > movies.
>I have  Instellarms representatives  that hang out on
>the more lawless worlds and try to peddle hardware.
>They dress in period clothing, my current one dresses
>in early 1900's British army fatigues(jungle warfare I
>think)travels via grav belt and is always at hand when
>things get hairy.

Oh ya...Handlebar mustache and thick accent too?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 11:33:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri May  3 10:33:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Today's Haiku
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205030925180.16172-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020503173201.73383.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:
> And how is it I know he's ranting again in spite of
> my killfile?

Well, It is kinda like the toilet.  As long as it only
gets a little at a time, everything is OK and all the
crap can be ignored.  However, when a glut of the
stuff is put out at once, that's when everyone knows
there are problems.




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 11:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May  3 10:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <02d101c1f2c0$ce6c6f20$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8F809C0.5962D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503133742.00b80be0@urbin.net>

At 05:36 PM 5/3/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > Foil!?  The foil is a fencing weapon, not a serious sword.  The weapon for
> > the navy should be the smallsword.
>The Traveller foil is basically a smallsword with an edge.
>Historically, there never was a weapon called a "foil". A "foiled rapier"
>(i.e. one that had been blunted and rebated for practice) is the weapon in
>Hamlet.
>The smallsword/court sword/walking sword is the closest parallel of the
>modern fleuret/foil, but there is no direct ancestor.
>Traveller foils are a little more robust than fencing foils of C21 terra.

My impression is that it's typically used as a 'badge of noble rank' than 
as a serious weapon.

As I noted in my TA#1 review, back in the Year 0 days, the Noble 'badge of 
rank' was a Magnum Revolver.
More rough and tumble days where you took damn good care not to insult 
Baron Teasdale's honor.

Most 'modern' nobles wear the foil as a fashion statement.  Gems in the 
hilt, engraved guards, etc.
Every once in a while you'll find a noble who carries a fully functional 
rapier, who knows how to use it.

Heck, out in the Marches or down near Reavers' Deep, you can find 
throwbacks who carry Great-to-the-Nth-Granddad's Magnum Revolver (or at 
least a good copy of it).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 11:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 10:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <B8F809C0.5962D%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020503133742.00b80be0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <001601c1f2cb$34a4c120$f8eb93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> Heck, out in the Marches or down near Reavers' Deep, you can find 
> throwbacks who carry Great-to-the-Nth-Granddad's Magnum Revolver (or at 
> least a good copy of it).
>

A noble's most powerful weapon is his finger...

"Captain, shoot that man...."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 11:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 10:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <OFD58CA959.665B5751-ON85256BAE.005DEEEC@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <002901c1f2cb$9e1da3b0$f8eb93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> I'm sorry i have not said anything please please don't punish me any more
8
> (
>
> I am just waiting for it to hit the shelves so i can buy it.


OKay. Sorry. I was getting paranoid. Now I feel guilty....

> but what ever you do don't stop!
>
> Ill build a bronze statue to you. 12 feet tall with CT books at your feet
> and your hand outstretched to the future if you don't stop!
>

I get the idea. OKay them. You'll be pleased to learn that a couple of
staunch CT fans have signed up to do adventures for the TA line.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 11:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 10:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <200205031643.FNY04501@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003001c1f2cb$d6679500$f8eb93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> Everyone on this list should consider "teaching CT (or your
> particular flavor of Traveller)and teaching GMing" at their
> local game store.  Not to each other!  Go forth and convert!
> Get kids to sign up and play!  Get kids to write their own
> adventures!
>

This is why the TML is important, and why a perceived lack of interest
scared me.

We need the existing fans' support to bring in new ones....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 12:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri May  3 11:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <001601c1f2cb$34a4c120$f8eb93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEEDHAAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

come now, you've got to remember where these nobles sprang from. 
Not from whacking opponents over the head with a pointy stick, rather 
by a leveraged buy out of said opponents life, world, family tree, and 
pretty much anything else you could pick up.  Killing
your enemy is for amateurs, they don't suffer nearly long enough and 
you don't get any useful work out of them.

military line go with the pistol look
civilian lines a dagger or a riding crop

jml



> Heck, out in the Marches or down near Reavers' Deep, you can find 
> throwbacks who carry Great-to-the-Nth-Granddad's Magnum Revolver (or at 
> least a good copy of it).
>

A noble's most powerful weapon is his finger...

"Captain, shoot that man...."

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 12:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri May  3 11:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <001601c1f2cb$34a4c120$f8eb93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEEEHAAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Seriously I'm waiting for T20 to come out and 
I'll buy it at my local gaming store.  I tend 
not to buy gaming stuff on line as I believe 
in supporting my local gaming store.  

jml
who is caught up until the Polybian Romans
come in

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 12:15:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May  3 11:15:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503133742.00b80be0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <B8F82187.59854%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 10:44 AM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:


> My impression is that it's typically used as a 'badge of noble rank' than
> as a serious weapon.
> 
> As I noted in my TA#1 review, back in the Year 0 days, the Noble 'badge of
> rank' was a Magnum Revolver.
> More rough and tumble days where you took damn good care not to insult
> Baron Teasdale's honor.
> 
> Most 'modern' nobles wear the foil as a fashion statement.  Gems in the
> hilt, engraved guards, etc.
> Every once in a while you'll find a noble who carries a fully functional
> rapier, who knows how to use it.
> 
> Heck, out in the Marches or down near Reavers' Deep, you can find
> throwbacks who carry Great-to-the-Nth-Granddad's Magnum Revolver (or at
> least a good copy of it).

Well, the foil seems like a very bad choice.  It is a fencing weapon.
Certainly the long blade and the wide guard are not conducive to carry.  As
mentioned previously, I have always assumed that the noble or officers sword
was based on the much more useful and far more attractive smallsword.  The
smallsword is really nothing like the foil.  The blade construction is quite
a bit more robust, more like an epee but typically shorter and broader.
Some examples even have cutting edges.

The small sword became common about 1600 and remained in use until the early
to  mid 19th century. It survives today as the court sword or dress sword.

Some examples of smallswords:

http://www.liongate-armsandarmour.com/images/ew205-1.jpg
http://www.armsandarmour.com/Auction/lotimage/courta.jpg
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 12:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Doug C.)
Date: Fri May  3 11:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <023a01c1f2ad$5f4f96c0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020503181333.13526.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com>

I for one certainly plan on purchasing both the CT TA
series,and T20 (to get my D&D friend into Traveller). 
I especially like the subscription plan, and after my
tax refund is in will be spending it :-)

I hope to see continued CT support from Quicklink!

Doug

--- MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> It being late in the day, I ponder....
> 
> We've just released the first official CT product in
> *HOW MANY???* years. To
> zero response. No fuss, no hatefest like GURPS
> created (I was a target of
> that particular barrage, but at least it was a
> response!). Nothing.
> 
> This worries me.
> 
> T20 is designed to bring in a whole bunch of new
> people to the Traveller
> genre. All our products have to be T20 compatible,
> but we can support CT
> too. This is a grand opportunity to get CT books
> (yes, books, in print), on
> the FLGS shelves once again.
> 
> But I wonder, should we bother? Does anyone care?
> Other than the six or so
> people who responded to my posts over the past few
> days, nobody seems to
> have reacted to TA#1 etc at all.
> 
> So; if only as a way of increasing the
> Signal-to-Sears ratio, how about a
> debate topic: The Future of CT - do you want QLI to
> support the CT line, or
> should we not bother wasting our efforts?
> 
> 
> Martin J Dougherty
> Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
> Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
> www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 


______________________________________________________________________ 
Games, Movies, Music & Sports! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 12:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri May  3 11:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEPIDMAA.tml@downport.com> <02b401c1f2bf$60dc4c10$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CD2D6FA.6080508@pcola.gulf.net>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

>
>>I'll flame you when t20 is published, okay? Besides, I consider every
>>supplement and adventure to be a CT product, cuz dats how I use 'em.
>>
>
>I'll look forward to the flames!
>
>Actually it's not a lack of flames that worried me, but a lack of any sort
>of reaction.
>
I predict that you'll get plenty of brickbats when T20 is released.   
You might even get some bouquets. <g>

As for the Traveller's Aide #1....give me a few days to finish the term, 
buy the darn thing and digest it.

Eris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 12:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 11:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <194.677e8eb.2a043362@cs.com>

--part1_194.677e8eb.2a043362_boundary
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Martin J Dougherty writes:


> The chargen system uses a prior history, with changes in career possible as
> you go. Served terms are worth experience = levels = skills.
> 
> You can have mishaps, get promoted, get cash bonuses, demoted or flung in
> jail during a period in a career.
> 
> So yes, chargen parallels the traditional CT system.
> 
> 

Will this be Open Source? That is, would I be able to use this prior history 
system in a D20 book _I_ might write?

Doug G

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>Martin J Dougherty writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The chargen system uses a prior history, with changes in career possible as
<BR>you go. Served terms are worth experience = levels = skills.
<BR>
<BR>You can have mishaps, get promoted, get cash bonuses, demoted or flung in
<BR>jail during a period in a career.
<BR>
<BR>So yes, chargen parallels the traditional CT system.
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Will this be Open Source? That is, would I be able to use this prior history system in a D20 book _I_ might write?
<BR>
<BR>Doug G</FONT></HTML>

--part1_194.677e8eb.2a043362_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 12:45:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May  3 11:45:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <B8F82187.59854%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020451455.9882.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> Well, the foil seems like a very bad choice.  It is a fencing weapon.

It's not even a weapon, it's a sport implement.  I can imagine a midlength
fencing weapon being a mark of rank, but I'm not sure why it would be called a
foil.  I'm inclined to agree about the smallsword.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 12:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri May  3 11:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller amrs manufacturers
In-Reply-To: <3CD286EF.17540.851977@localhost>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGCDPAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>> >
>> >So - what corporations exist in the Imperium that would produce:
>>
>> Well, Instellarms LIC probably produces weapons of all tech levels, and
>> there are no doubt plenty of smaller weapons makers.  Companies with high
TL
>> capability may make weapons of lower tech level for the low tech market.
>> I.e., a TL 7 world would find TL 7 weapons easier to maintain and repair
>> than TL 9 weapons.
>
>I thought about Instellarms, LIC for the Snub SMG (incidentally is the
>rumour I heard that there's one in Star Mercs true?), but I'm needing a
>good name for a producer of specialty weapons.
>
>> I think there must be some Imperial standards for ammunition, so that,
e.g.,
>> 9mm bullets made by Company A fit into pistols made by Companies B, C,
and
>> D.
>
>I've always assumed that there is, for the more common rounds like 10mm
>snub, the 9mm pistol and 9mm magnums, 7mm ACR, etc. anyway.
>--

I can't imagine why.

Imperial forces are at (G)TL10 minimum, by which the common military weapon
will be the gauss gun. Going by GT materials, at least, the standard gauss
gun rounds seem to be 4 mm needles and 20 mm grenade/hand cannon shells, and
of course the 18.5 mm shotgun shell (also a gauss round, IMTU anyway, where
it is the gauss CAW.)

To be quite honest in ***Imperial*** society I tend to limit small arms to
the traditional magnum carried with the rapier to nobles, more as symbols of
office than actual weapons. Though I'm sure they would be quite serviceable
to fight duels or in defense if necessary.

Now PC's knocking around on planets normally not seeing a lot of traffic
might come across almost any kind of weapon. But I would expect only local
military forces of worlds outfitted at TL9 and below would use any chemical
propellant weapons, and they are just as likely to use electrical
cartridge-ignition, caseless ammunition or liquid propellant as anything we
have now.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 12:47:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 11:47:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <175.7b9ef9e.2a0434db@cs.com>

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Martin J. Dougherty writes:


> We're talking to some hardcore CT fans about writing CT adventures (with T20
> stats, yes...). I want to know if it's worth their time and ours.
> 
> Maybe it is....

Would these possibly be done in the same fashion as the CT Double Adventure 
modules? With the CT stats one way, and the T20 stats the other?

Doug G

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>Martin J. Dougherty writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">We're talking to some hardcore CT fans about writing CT adventures (with T20
<BR>stats, yes...). I want to know if it's worth their time and ours.
<BR>
<BR>Maybe it is....</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Would these possibly be done in the same fashion as the CT Double Adventure modules? With the CT stats one way, and the T20 stats the other?
<BR>
<BR>Doug G</FONT></HTML>

--part1_175.7b9ef9e.2a0434db_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 12:48:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 11:48:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <200205031845.FOC03867@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

MJ Dougherty says
>A noble's most powerful weapon is his finger...
>
>"Captain, shoot that man...."

"Pot that fellow..."
________________
Watching programs run
Endless hours of debugging
Lightning flash outside

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 12:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Fri May  3 11:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEGADPAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHOEGHCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Terry Carlino
> Sent: Friday, 03 May, 2002 13:28
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
>
>
> > Robert A. Uhl writes:
> >> > On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people,
> I think it
> >> > > would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> >> > > bathing and sanitation...
> >> >
> >
> >Bad Idea!
> >The government will collect 10 million in taxes,
> >and give out 3 million in subsidies.
> >
> >-Shawn-
>
> The government is already doing this in one form or another if
> you live in a
> big urban area. Like roads and power the government has always subsidized
> such things, to a point of sharing the cost with users. In many cases the
> government subsidies are not obvious, but they are there.
>
> To ramble as I typically do: Take roads and the issue of public
> transportation. In the U.S. public transport, be it Amtrak or local public
> transport the critics always complain that it must pay for itself. In the
> states most places don't have public transport because the claim
> is that it
> must pay for itself.
>


Everyone benefits from the use of roads and rails.


> No one requires car and truck traffic to do that. Sure road and gas taxes
> pay for a lot of it. But seldom is the total cost of use of the automobile
> included in the mix. Who includes the extra police services necessary to
> enforce traffic laws, the traffic courts, the cost of traffic enforcement
> devices, and such things in the cost calculation? Then there is the
> environmental impact, enforcement in weights and measures (of gas sale
> devices, etc) etc.
>
> If the user of an automobile had to pay their share of the true
> cost no one
> but the very rich would be able to afford a car.
>


If U.S. citizens didn't have to pay 50% of their incomes on taxes,
they would have plenty of money to pay for roads.


> Electrification is another example. The only reason that almost all of the
> US; is electrified was the existence of the Rural Electrification Act,
> which required the utilities to carry power to the hinterlands.
> That is why
> many other countries still only have electricity in the cities.
>
> One of the reason business is so successful in the U.S. is that the
> governments (Federal, state, local) help business by giving them an
> environment where they can be successful. One of the reason small business
> often doesn't feel this way is that the government assistance
> often is much
> more helpful to big business than to small business.


At tax payer expense, I might add!!!


> Terry C
> All that is Gold does not glitter
> Not all who travel are lost
>
>
>

Why should my parents on Long Island, pay money for my water here in NYC?
Sorry, I still don't agree.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Fri May  3 12:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHOEGHCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEGADPAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020503135844.02277cd0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

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The following set of exchanges are an excellent demonstration of why 
debating personal political beliefs (instead of Traveller) is a bad idea on 
this list.  'Nuff said.

Victor

At 02:59 PM 5/3/02 -0400, you wrote:


> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Terry Carlino
> > Sent: Friday, 03 May, 2002 13:28
> > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > Subject: RE: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
> >
> >
> > > Robert A. Uhl writes:
> > >> > On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8 million people,
> > I think it
> > >> > > would be an *excellent* idea for the state to subsidise water for
> > >> > > bathing and sanitation...
> > >> >
> > >
> > >Bad Idea!
> > >The government will collect 10 million in taxes,
> > >and give out 3 million in subsidies.
> > >
> > >-Shawn-
> >
> > The government is already doing this in one form or another if
> > you live in a
> > big urban area. Like roads and power the government has always subsidized
> > such things, to a point of sharing the cost with users. In many cases the
> > government subsidies are not obvious, but they are there.
> >
> > To ramble as I typically do: Take roads and the issue of public
> > transportation. In the U.S. public transport, be it Amtrak or local public
> > transport the critics always complain that it must pay for itself. In the
> > states most places don't have public transport because the claim
> > is that it
> > must pay for itself.
> >
>
>
>Everyone benefits from the use of roads and rails.
>
>
> > No one requires car and truck traffic to do that. Sure road and gas taxes
> > pay for a lot of it. But seldom is the total cost of use of the automobile
> > included in the mix. Who includes the extra police services necessary to
> > enforce traffic laws, the traffic courts, the cost of traffic enforcement
> > devices, and such things in the cost calculation? Then there is the
> > environmental impact, enforcement in weights and measures (of gas sale
> > devices, etc) etc.
> >
> > If the user of an automobile had to pay their share of the true
> > cost no one
> > but the very rich would be able to afford a car.
> >
>
>
>If U.S. citizens didn't have to pay 50% of their incomes on taxes,
>they would have plenty of money to pay for roads.
>
>
> > Electrification is another example. The only reason that almost all of the
> > US; is electrified was the existence of the Rural Electrification Act,
> > which required the utilities to carry power to the hinterlands.
> > That is why
> > many other countries still only have electricity in the cities.
> >
> > One of the reason business is so successful in the U.S. is that the
> > governments (Federal, state, local) help business by giving them an
> > environment where they can be successful. One of the reason small business
> > often doesn't feel this way is that the government assistance
> > often is much
> > more helpful to big business than to small business.
>
>
>At tax payer expense, I might add!!!
>
>
> > Terry C
> > All that is Gold does not glitter
> > Not all who travel are lost
> >
> >
> >
>
>Why should my parents on Long Island, pay money for my water here in NYC?
>Sorry, I still don't agree.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

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<html>
The following set of exchanges are an excellent demonstration of why
debating <i>personal</i> political beliefs (instead of Traveller) is a
bad idea on this list.&nbsp; 'Nuff said.<br><br>
Victor<br><br>
At 02:59 PM 5/3/02 -0400, you wrote:<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt; -----Original
Message-----<br>
&gt; From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com<br>
&gt;
[<a href="mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com" eudora="autourl">mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com</a>]On
Behalf Of Terry Carlino<br>
&gt; Sent: Friday, 03 May, 2002 13:28<br>
&gt; To: tml@travellercentral.com<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Robert A. Uhl writes:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; On Tue, Apr 23, 2002 at 11:39:21PM +0000, Stephen
Tempest wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Living as I do in an overcrowded city of 8
million people,<br>
&gt; I think it<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; would be an *excellent* idea for the state to
subsidise water for<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; bathing and sanitation...<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;Bad Idea!<br>
&gt; &gt;The government will collect 10 million in taxes,<br>
&gt; &gt;and give out 3 million in subsidies.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;-Shawn-<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The government is already doing this in one form or another if<br>
&gt; you live in a<br>
&gt; big urban area. Like roads and power the government has always
subsidized<br>
&gt; such things, to a point of sharing the cost with users. In many
cases the<br>
&gt; government subsidies are not obvious, but they are there.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; To ramble as I typically do: Take roads and the issue of 
public<br>
&gt; transportation. In the U.S. public transport, be it Amtrak or local
public<br>
&gt; transport the critics always complain that it must pay for itself.
In the<br>
&gt; states most places don't have public transport because the
claim<br>
&gt; is that it<br>
&gt; must pay for itself.<br>
&gt;<br><br>
<br>
Everyone benefits from the use of roads and rails.<br><br>
<br>
&gt; No one requires car and truck traffic to do that. Sure road and gas
taxes<br>
&gt; pay for a lot of it. But seldom is the total cost of use of the
automobile<br>
&gt; included in the mix. Who includes the extra police services
necessary to<br>
&gt; enforce traffic laws, the traffic courts, the cost of traffic
enforcement<br>
&gt; devices, and such things in the cost calculation? Then there is
the<br>
&gt; environmental impact, enforcement in weights and measures (of gas
sale<br>
&gt; devices, etc) etc.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If the user of an automobile had to pay their share of the 
true<br>
&gt; cost no one<br>
&gt; but the very rich would be able to afford a car.<br>
&gt;<br><br>
<br>
If U.S. citizens didn't have to pay 50% of their incomes on taxes,<br>
they would have plenty of money to pay for roads.<br><br>
<br>
&gt; Electrification is another example. The only reason that almost all
of the<br>
&gt; US; is electrified was the existence of the Rural Electrification
Act,<br>
&gt; which required the utilities to carry power to the 
hinterlands.<br>
&gt; That is why<br>
&gt; many other countries still only have electricity in the 
cities.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; One of the reason business is so successful in the U.S. is that
the<br>
&gt; governments (Federal, state, local) help business by giving them
an<br>
&gt; environment where they can be successful. One of the reason small
business<br>
&gt; often doesn't feel this way is that the government assistance<br>
&gt; often is much<br>
&gt; more helpful to big business than to small business.<br><br>
<br>
At tax payer expense, I might add!!!<br><br>
<br>
&gt; Terry C<br>
&gt; All that is Gold does not glitter<br>
&gt; Not all who travel are lost<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br><br>
Why should my parents on Long Island, pay money for my water here in
NYC?<br>
Sorry, I still don't agree.<br><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
TML mailing list<br>
TML@travellercentral.com<br>
<a href="http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml" eudora="autourl">http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml</a></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri May  3 12:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC:  May Competition
Message-ID: <20020503190335.22383.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

Designs will be accepted beginning May 5 through May
15, 2002.  Please submit designs to:

traveller_tv@yahoo.com

Include the designer name, the manufacturing company
(if applicable), the design system used, and the
completed design (please no attachments).  More
information will follow regarding the judging.

May desgin contest parameters to follow.

###

Independent Exploration Vessel
(Submitted by: Walt Smith)

The Stellar Federation, a small but growing pocket
empire to rim-ward of the Imperium is looking for a
design to augment it's exploratory fleet.  The ship
would be a long range vessel with the ability to
remain self sufficient for a five year mission.  The
design will be purchased by StarFleet, the
Federation's equivalent of the IISS who will perform
the construction of the vessels in this class. 
Because this is a small pocket empire, price will be a
consideration.  The following minimum specifications
must be met.

      TL:  12
    Jump:   3+
Maneuver:   2+

Mission Spec:
*  Under 20,000 Dtons.
*  5+ years endurance (wilderness refueling allowed)
*  Offensive and defensive ability to adequately
   operate against TL11- forces.
*  Exploration grade sensors.
*  Extensive on-board laboratory facilities.
*  Reasonable complement of small craft and
   ship's vehicles to facilitate survey & contact
   operations.
*  Accomodations for scientists, survey specialists,
   and other mission personnel (50+).
*  Accomodations for crew and other personnel for
   extended time in space with no ground fall.
*  Extended Medical facilities.
*  Cargo capacity sufficient to support endurance
   requirements, with sufficient extra capacity to
   carry sample trade goods to newly-contacted
   planets and return samples and specimens from
   such planets.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 12:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
Message-ID: <200205031903.FOC06356@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Given the propensity of people to engage in "hasty words" I 
was reminded of what may be a mythical "other time".

They say that when duelling was legal, or at least overlooked 
in most cases, that "gentlemen" were more polite, or at least 
more careful not to inflame the passions of others.

In a time that preceded the advent of Valium and Xanax, hasty 
words would often have Darwinian consequences (not always the 
right outcome, either).

Given the wearing of ceremonial weapons, what level of 
duelling might there be in the Imperium, and would people 
have a better care as to their choice of words (or even 
opening their mouths to speak)?

I happen to like the idea of duelling as a means of settling 
social hash.  I would think that it tends to silence the 
meager of mind early in life.

IMTU there is duelling amongst the nobility (it's not legal, 
but under certain circumstances, people tend to overlook 
it).  There is also vendetta, and all that might imply.

If duelling exists IYTU, are there age-old rules?

Comments, please.
________________
Watching programs run
Endless hours of debugging
Lightning flash outside

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Fri May  3 12:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] taxes
Message-ID: <RELAY2uwjt5a8XG4RYs00002d3a@relay2.softcomca.com>

Matt Ashley <helvorn@yahoo.com>

> Actually, our great politicians in California are pondering
> a tax on sugared sodas to combat obese children!

Heck, we don't need a tax to combat obese children, Matt.  They
don't run as fast as other kids, so you just don't have to lead
them as much in the crosshairs! :^)

    - Mark C.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri May  3 12:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHOEGHCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <20020503190704.65490.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Shawn R Sears <ShawnSears@telocity.com> wrote:
>
> Why should my parents on Long Island, pay money for
> my water here in NYC?
> Sorry, I still don't agree.

Nothing to be sorry about, just drop it.  It is a
topic that was active a week ago, and several good,
mediocre  and poor arguments were given for both
positions.  But, as I said, that was a week ago.  It
lost Traveller relevance and died.  Leave it RIP,
please.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri May  3 12:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020503110222.04b66a00@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020503110222.04b66a00@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <200205031514320846.1D827F2F@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/3/2002 at 11:04 AM Victor Jason Raymond wrote:

>Well, actually, being a nit, I spotted the Quiklink charge on my credit 
>card statement, forgot what it was, and called the folks up to find out=
 who 
>had nicked my CC#....
>
>...Only to discover I was talking to fellow CT fans, who REALLY WANTED to 
>know what I thought.

Ah so that was you that called!

>It's a great piece of work.  It'll fit quite nicely into my game.  I like 
>Traveller Aide #1, and I am looking forward to future releases - and I 
>particularly like the fact that it is cross-platform (t20 and CT).  Longer=
 
>review will follow.

Thanks for the support! We have two more in the TA series in production=
 currently (#2 is fiction, #3 will be ground vehicles). 

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Akins)
Date: Fri May  3 12:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Concerns (MJ Dougherty)
In-Reply-To: <20020503164735.EE73F279F1@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020503164735.EE73F279F1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <0GVJ00J8IUN4JE@mtaout05.icomcast.net>

Martin wrote:
<snip>
> So; if only as a way of increasing the Signal-to-Sears ratio, how about a
> debate topic: The Future of CT - do you want QLI to support the CT line, or
> should we not bother wasting our efforts?
>

Actually, I've felt this way too. I was kindof upset when I wrote Modular 
Cutter, and there wasn't a lot of chatter about it. But as someone pointed 
out to me, these mailing list thingies tend to foster complaining more than 
complimenting...so if the list is quiet, no one is flaming you :)

Now, speaking for myself about CT and QuikLink - CT is and remains my 
favorite setting and ruleset - and I normally write for GURPS :) So the fact 
that a new line of CT-compatable materials is coming out leaves me giddy like 
a child. The last year has been fabulous - Marc reprinting all the old books 
- and QuikLink making new ones :)

I bought a TA Subscription as soon as I heard of it, and have glossed through 
TA #1. What I've seen so far has pleased me greatly.

And on the T20 side...I'm like many people, in that I doubt that they will be 
the ruleset of choice for me. *however*, I'm going to buy every one of the 
books/supplements, in order to support QuikLink...and I think T20 is a good 
decision...hopefully we can pull in a new generation of Travellers...

So consider me 100% on the QuikLink/T20/CT bandwagon, as a consumer, a 
player, a GM, and hopefully even a contributor. I'm looking forward to the 
ride :)

Andy Akins

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Fri May  3 12:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <200205031514320846.1D827F2F@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020503110222.04b66a00@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020503110222.04b66a00@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020503141244.021c6b30@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

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At 03:14 PM 5/3/02 -0400, you wrote:


>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>
>On 5/3/2002 at 11:04 AM Victor Jason Raymond wrote:
>
> >Well, actually, being a nit, I spotted the Quiklink charge on my credit
> >card statement, forgot what it was, and called the folks up to find out who
> >had nicked my CC#....
> >
> >...Only to discover I was talking to fellow CT fans, who REALLY WANTED to
> >know what I thought.
>
>Ah so that was you that called!

Yes, yes, it was me.  <grin>  I admit it.  Got me dead to rights.

> >It's a great piece of work.  It'll fit quite nicely into my game.  I like
> >Traveller Aide #1, and I am looking forward to future releases - and I
> >particularly like the fact that it is cross-platform (t20 and CT).  Longer
> >review will follow.
>
>Thanks for the support! We have two more in the TA series in production 
>currently (#2 is fiction, #3 will be ground vehicles).

Looking forward to both.

Victor


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

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<html>
At 03:14 PM 5/3/02 -0400, you wrote:<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR&nbsp;
***********<br><br>
On 5/3/2002 at 11:04 AM Victor Jason Raymond wrote:<br><br>
&gt;Well, actually, being a nit, I spotted the Quiklink charge on my
credit <br>
&gt;card statement, forgot what it was, and called the folks up to find
out who <br>
&gt;had nicked my CC#....<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;...Only to discover I was talking to fellow CT fans, who REALLY
WANTED to <br>
&gt;know what I thought.<br><br>
Ah so that was you that called!</blockquote><br>
Yes, yes, it was me.&nbsp; &lt;grin&gt;&nbsp; I admit it.&nbsp; Got me
dead to rights.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt;It's a great piece of
work.&nbsp; It'll fit quite nicely into my game.&nbsp; I like <br>
&gt;Traveller Aide #1, and I am looking forward to future releases - and
I <br>
&gt;particularly like the fact that it is cross-platform (t20 and
CT).&nbsp; Longer <br>
&gt;review will follow.<br><br>
Thanks for the support! We have two more in the TA series in production
currently (#2 is fiction, #3 will be ground vehicles). 
</blockquote><br>
Looking forward to both.<br><br>
Victor<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_55354096==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri May  3 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller amrs manufacturers
Message-ID: <3CD1F10B.5AA26D12@ameritech.net>

> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> Organization: Babel and Chaos
> Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 12:47:43 +1200

<snip>

> I thought about Instellarms, LIC for the Snub SMG (incidentally is 
> the rumour I heard that there's one in Star Mercs true?), but I'm 
> needing a good name for a producer of specialty weapons.
 
The Orcrist Firearms Foundry division of the Spinward Marches 
Entertainment Group (SMEG/OFF) specializes in weapons built to
custom calibres and for highly specific purposes. Though they
don't do much business outside of the marches they will sell
to almost anybody.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri May  3 12:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <B8F809C0.5962D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020503191825.68792.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>

The foil, which is also described as a 'privilege of
rank' for 
nobles,
> seems a wee bit pretentious to me.
> Anybody feel this way?
> 
Of course it's pretentious, the stereotypical noble is
 "commonly" egotistical and pretentious. ;)
However, T4 rules for noble characters state that a
big danger of being a noble is that they frequently
engage in duels, and must hone their fencing
abilities.
I don't know if this holds true in GURPS or CT.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri May  3 12:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020503141244.021c6b30@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020503110222.04b66a00@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020503110222.04b66a00@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020503141244.021c6b30@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <200205031527030065.1D8DF1BA@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/3/2002 at 2:13 PM Victor Jason Raymond wrote:

>> >Well, actually, being a nit, I spotted the Quiklink charge on my credit
>> >card statement, forgot what it was, and called the folks up to find out=
 who
>> >had nicked my CC#....
>> >
>> >...Only to discover I was talking to fellow CT fans, who REALLY WANTED=
 to
>> >know what I thought.
>>
>>Ah so that was you that called!
>
>Yes, yes, it was me.  <grin>  I admit it.  Got me dead to rights.

Not to worry, I get the 'What did I buy from QuikLink' call at least a=
 couple times a month. QuikLink just doesn't sound like a gaming company=
 (but I don't want to go through the hassle of getting a corporate name=
 change!)


Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri May  3 12:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Flaming Trolls
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503133542.00b817e0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <20020503192321.93126.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>

<Oh ya...Handlebar mustache and thick accent too?>


Of course,I can't seem to recall a movie that would
give an example of this ,but well,er um, did anyone
ever watch "THe Pirate Movie" with Christie McNichol?
There was a colonel in that movie that was prettymuch
what I was aiming at. I'll probably make other
Instellarms reps that look like Napoleon,Patton or
maybe figures from alien wars. But if it doesn't have
a familar appeal it won't be funny. 
Maybe a Sontaran.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:27:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri May  3 12:27:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Concerns (MJ Dougherty)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36AF@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

<snip Andy's comments>
So consider me 100% on the QuikLink/T20/CT bandwagon, as a consumer, a 
player, a GM, and hopefully even a contributor. I'm looking forward to the 
ride :)

Andy Akins



Yeah, what he said! :)
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May  3 12:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <001601c1f2cb$34a4c120$f8eb93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8F809C0.5962D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020503133742.00b80be0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503153252.00b88560@urbin.net>

At 06:51 PM 5/3/02 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > Heck, out in the Marches or down near Reavers' Deep, you can find
> > throwbacks who carry Great-to-the-Nth-Granddad's Magnum Revolver (or at
> > least a good copy of it).
>A noble's most powerful weapon is his finger...
>"Captain, shoot that man...."

Yes, but you can still run into the occasional Baron who likes to keep his 
fingers in the wetwork....

"If you want something done right," BLAM, BLAM, "You just have to do it 
yourself."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri May  3 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <194.677e8eb.2a043362@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20020503193253.94168.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>

> Will this be Open Source? That is, would I be able
> to use this prior history 
> system in a D20 book _I_ might write?
> 
> Doug G
> 
Speaking of history, the website said the timline is
before and after the rimwar if I remember right. I'm a
little confused about before and after something that
long. Could you please elaborate?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 12:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Piracy, maybe. But more like the Ine Givar
Message-ID: <200205031933.FOE01715@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

People may have more than one reason to seize a ship.  Making 
money may not be part of the plan.  In RU, see the link 
http://webcenter.newssearch.netscape.com/aolns_display.adp?
key=200205031427000297413_aolns.src
________________
Watching programs run
Endless hours of debugging
Lightning flash outside

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri May  3 12:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <20020503193253.94168.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020503193253.94168.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200205031547040652.1DA0476E@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 5/3/2002 at 12:32 PM Daniel Tackett wrote:

>Speaking of history, the website said the timline is
>before and after the rimwar if I remember right. I'm a
>little confused about before and after something that
>long. Could you please elaborate?

T20 is set around the year 1000, just before the end of the Rim War. The=
 war is currently still raging, but the tide is beginning to turn in favor=
 of the Imps.

Note that the setting though is not in the Rim, but in Gateway (though=
 there are still problems with Sollie agitators in the region)

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri May  3 12:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <20020503164735.EE73F279F1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD2CFBE.FE54E36F@ameritech.net>



> From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 15:17:47 +0100
> Subject: [TML] Concerns

> It being late in the day, I ponder....
> 
> We've just released the first official CT product in *HOW MANY???* years.

Less than one. Unless of course the FFE reprints don't count as CT or
oficial. :D

> To
> zero response. No fuss, no hatefest like GURPS created (I was a target of
> that particular barrage, but at least it was a response!). Nothing.

Two reviews on RPG.net is more than nothing. Sure they hit on tuesday
and fell off the front page before a lot of people saw it but that is
two more reviews than the Adventure reprint books got.

> 
> This worries me.

You give almost no PR push for your product and then get worried because
nobody knows it exists? Perhaps you should look into spreading the news 
more.

> 
> T20 is designed to bring in a whole bunch of new people to the Traveller
> genre. All our products have to be T20 compatible, but we can support CT
> too. This is a grand opportunity to get CT books (yes, books, in print), on
> the FLGS shelves once again.

When does the CT refs screen come out? That's the one I'm waiting for.

> 
> But I wonder, should we bother? Does anyone care? Other than the six or so
> people who responded to my posts over the past few days, nobody seems to
> have reacted to TA#1 etc at all.
> 
> So; if only as a way of increasing the Signal-to-Sears ratio, how about a
> debate topic: The Future of CT - do you want QLI to support the CT line, or
> should we not bother wasting our efforts?

Considering the response of the D20 crowd to the release of TA1 (Not
enough
D20 stats too much unnecesary Traveller to paraphrase more than one
review.
Admitedly a rather tiny sample and not necesarily indicative of mass
opinion)
I'd say your better off chucking the D20 support and concentrating on
CT.
Which is what I said when T20 was first announced.  

As for my reaction to TA1 itself. It's a PDF. I don't buy PDF's. If you
want my business you need to give me an actual tangible product that
I can hold in my hands. That's just the way I am. 

I'm also not sure what sense it makes to release a supplement for a game 
that isn't even out yet. Or doesn't even seem to have a firm release 
date.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May  3 12:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <B8F82187.59854%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503133742.00b80be0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503153711.00b90ec0@urbin.net>

At 11:14 AM 5/3/02 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 5/3/02 10:44 AM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:
> > My impression is that it's typically used as a 'badge of noble rank' than
> > as a serious weapon.
> > As I noted in my TA#1 review, back in the Year 0 days, the Noble 'badge of
> > rank' was a Magnum Revolver.
> > More rough and tumble days where you took damn good care not to insult
> > Baron Teasdale's honor.
> > Most 'modern' nobles wear the foil as a fashion statement.  Gems in the
> > hilt, engraved guards, etc.
> > Every once in a while you'll find a noble who carries a fully functional
> > rapier, who knows how to use it.
> > Heck, out in the Marches or down near Reavers' Deep, you can find
> > throwbacks who carry Great-to-the-Nth-Granddad's Magnum Revolver (or at
> > least a good copy of it).
>Well, the foil seems like a very bad choice.

Well, yes.  I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you.
I see it as a sign of how far downhill things have slid...

>It is a fencing weapon.
>Certainly the long blade and the wide guard are not conducive to carry.  As
>mentioned previously, I have always assumed that the noble or officers sword

Two separate items here.

>was based on the much more useful and far more attractive smallsword.  The
>smallsword is really nothing like the foil.  The blade construction is quite
>a bit more robust, more like an epee but typically shorter and broader.
>Some examples even have cutting edges.

To quote from TA#1:
"...the foil has a slender blade about a meter long, designed for thrusting 
but capable of making a slashing attack with the edge."
"Seen by many users as too light for real combat use, the foil is opten 
carried as a fashion item or a part of dress clothing, especially by nobles."

"The Navy Foil has a slightly heavier blade, which is curved in the manner 
of a cutalss."
"The Navy Foil is only slightly more robust than a conventional foil..."

As opposed to Swords:
"Examples include the standard "sword" purchased as a self-defense weapon 
by many Travellers, katana-type weapons favored by martial arts students 
and the "dress sword" worn by officers and other ranks of the Imperial Army..."
"The sword...[is] a weapon to take seriously."

There is also mention of the "foil" being easy to bend if you parry wrong.

>The small sword became common about 1600 and remained in use until the early
>to  mid 19th century. It survives today as the court sword or dress sword.

It sounds like what CT & T20 call a 'foil' is more like your example of a 
smallsword.
You would still get a range of quality.  If a Noble picks his sword because 
the jewel in the hilt matches his cape, it a decoration.
If there is a sweat stained pair of fencing gloves tucked in the belt next 
to a plain, worn hilt and scratched bell guard...be polite.



>Some examples of smallswords:
>
>http://www.liongate-armsandarmour.com/images/ew205-1.jpg
>http://www.armsandarmour.com/Auction/lotimage/courta.jpg


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 13:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 12:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rimwar, Fifth Frontier War, etc.
Message-ID: <200205031947.FOE03464@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I would really like to see a major boardgame (in which you 
could design your fleets, say) so that we could recreate not 
just the major battles, but fight major wars.

I think that a PBEM sector-spanning war would be really cool, 
with news briefs, etc. posted.  Is there any info on how they 
came up with the counters for Fifth Frontier War?
________________
Watching programs run
Endless hours of debugging
Lightning flash outside

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 14:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 13:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <20020503.131246.-170827.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Fri, 3 May 2002 18:51:20 +0100 "MJ Dougherty"
<martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> > Heck, out in the Marches or down near Reavers' Deep, you can find 
> > throwbacks who carry Great-to-the-Nth-Granddad's Magnum Revolver 
> (or at 
> > least a good copy of it).
> >
> 
> A noble's most powerful weapon is his finger...
> 
> "Captain, shoot that man...."

Oh! For a moment there I thought you were talking about the other
finger...

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri May  3 13:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <3CD2CFBE.FE54E36F@ameritech.net>
References: <20020503164735.EE73F279F1@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3CD2CFBE.FE54E36F@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <200205031620300216.1DBEE1AA@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 5/3/2002 at 12:58 PM David Shayne wrote:

>> We've just released the first official CT product in *HOW MANY???*=
 years.
>
>Less than one. Unless of course the FFE reprints don't count as CT or
>oficial. :D

I think he meant *new* material, in which the reprints do not count ;)

>You give almost no PR push for your product and then get worried because
>nobody knows it exists? Perhaps you should look into spreading the news 
>more.

We are a small company, thus budgets for print advertising are hard to come=
 by. As for spreading the news, we had posted numerous times here on the=
 TML about our products, and even went so far as to, as Martin put it,=
 *bribe* folks to write a few reviews and post them here. Still nothing was=
 said about the reviews, etc. That made us worry a bit.

If you have any suggestions for spreading the word that doesn't cost a ton,=
 I'm all ears!

>When does the CT refs screen come out? That's the one I'm waiting for.

When T20 releases. Both the CT and T20 screens will print together to save=
 on the costs.

>Considering the response of the D20 crowd to the release of TA1 (Not
>enough D20 stats too much unnecesary Traveller to paraphrase more than one
>review. Admitedly a rather tiny sample and not necesarily indicative of=
 mass
>opinion) I'd say your better off chucking the D20 support and=
 concentrating on
>CT. Which is what I said when T20 was first announced.  

That was 2 reviews (if you can call those that), out of them all. I get=
 calls fairly regularly asking about T20 itself, not to mention the=
 interest on T20 posted at other sites and forums. Also considering the=
 estimated preorders from distributors, I'm not all that worried about how=
 T20 will do at least initially.

>As for my reaction to TA1 itself. It's a PDF. I don't buy PDF's. If you
>want my business you need to give me an actual tangible product that
>I can hold in my hands. That's just the way I am. 

I can understand that. It is one of the reasons we plan to release a 'Best=
 of' each year that will be printed and distributed. 12-issue subscribers=
 get a copy free.

>I'm also not sure what sense it makes to release a supplement for a game 
>that isn't even out yet. Or doesn't even seem to have a firm release 
>date.

As you mentioned earlier, the CT reprints are 'out', and as mentioned in=
 more than one review, the d20 material in the PDF is quite usable for any=
 modern or scifi d20 games.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 14:17:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri May  3 13:17:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
References: <200205031903.FOC06356@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD2F00E.5010507@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Given the propensity of people to engage in "hasty words" I 
> was reminded of what may be a mythical "other time".
> 
> They say that when duelling was legal, or at least overlooked 
> in most cases, that "gentlemen" were more polite, or at least 
> more careful not to inflame the passions of others.
> 
> In a time that preceded the advent of Valium and Xanax, hasty 
> words would often have Darwinian consequences (not always the 
> right outcome, either).

'Tis true. Several dual-weapon fencing techniques were actually 
outlawwed in late Rennaisance Italy for that reason: far too many duels 
were ending in double kills.

> Given the wearing of ceremonial weapons, what level of 
> duelling might there be in the Imperium, and would people 
> have a better care as to their choice of words (or even 
> opening their mouths to speak)?

Remember, too, that *most* duels were not to the death, but rather to 
the satisfaction of the offended party...usually first blood sufficed.

Note that duelling fell out of favor as the weapons involved started 
making first blood=probable death with the introduction of firearms.

With swords, you can even go so far as Heidelburg rules where jackets 
and masks are worn, so the most you're likely to get is a dashing scar 
across the cheek.

> I happen to like the idea of duelling as a means of settling 
> social hash.  I would think that it tends to silence the 
> meager of mind early in life.

Yep, though it can get out of hand: witness 'The Duellists' (my all time 
favorite movie of all time.)

> IMTU there is duelling amongst the nobility (it's not legal, 
> but under certain circumstances, people tend to overlook 
> it).  There is also vendetta, and all that might imply.

Oy Vey! (or whatever the Sicilian term meaning the same thing is)

Vendetta is an entirely different kettle of blue horses.

You could go all the way from 'To Live and Die in Palermo' to the 
machinations (and the rigid rules) of the Great Houses in Dune.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 14:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 13:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <200205032023.FOG00535@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hunter Gordon" asks
>If you have any suggestions for spreading the word that 
>doesn't cost a ton, I'm all ears!
>

1.  Find out if there are any TMLers or employees willing to 
host Traveller games at local shops.  Come up with an 
introduction to Traveller, how to GM, use some of the 
original material mixed with yours.  

2.  Have these people run those sessions, have them recruit 
new GMs.  Take as your pattern the whole Pokemon league thing.
Why shouldn't there be a Traveller league, a certified 
Traveller GM, etc.  There shouldn't be a fee for this - but 
if you talk to SJ, Marc, et al, we could spawn a new wave of 
young people playing the good stuff.

3.  Advertise this on a website.  

4.  We also need to come up with some talking points about 
how gaming is good for you - I've convinced my wife that her 
stepson is better off playing Traveller than a video game - 
and she agrees!  He's read more in the past six months about 
various subjects than he has in his whole life.  
________________
Watching programs run
Endless hours of debugging
Lightning flash outside

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 14:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri May  3 13:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
In-Reply-To: <200205031620300216.1DBEE1AA@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <20020503164735.EE73F279F1@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3CD2CFBE.FE54E36F@ameritech.net>
 <200205031620300216.1DBEE1AA@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <200205031633530281.1DCB22A3@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

Thanks to all who voiced their interest in favor of our supporting the CT=
 line. That was what we needed to hear! 

On a similar note, is there much interest in similar support for MT, TNE,=
 and T4? We have the OK from Marc to support these lines also if we think=
 there is enough interest from the community.

As with the CT material, we'll need outside help in the form of writers,=
 etc. We aren't quite big enough to handle all the development 'in-house'=
 at the moment. ;)

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 14:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Fri May  3 13:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] taxes
In-Reply-To: <RELAY2uwjt5a8XG4RYs00002d3a@relay2.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEGLCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of markc@peak.org
> Sent: Friday, 03 May, 2002 15:07
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] taxes
> 
> 
> Matt Ashley <helvorn@yahoo.com>
> 
> > Actually, our great politicians in California are pondering
> > a tax on sugared sodas to combat obese children!
> 
> Heck, we don't need a tax to combat obese children, Matt.  They
> don't run as fast as other kids, so you just don't have to lead
> them as much in the crosshairs! :^)
> 
>     - Mark C.
> 
> 
> 

ROFLMAO

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 14:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 13:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
Message-ID: <200205032033.FOG01676@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
>Note that duelling fell out of favor as the weapons involved 
>started making first blood=probable death with the 
>introduction of firearms.
>

There's a history book called The Duel, that catalogs the 
history from its beginnings to the fade out in modern times.  
In the US, duelling with firearms fell out of favor not 
because the two combatants were likely to be killed, but 
because bystanders tended to get injured or killed (sort of a 
firing range problem).

Dueling with swords in an age where medical care was of 
questionable value tended to be nearly as lethal in the long 
run as firearms.  Outside of France within a certain time 
period, first blood doesn't seem to be a factor.

One great story.  A French commmander had two lieutenants who 
insisted on duelling.  They asked for it to be to first 
blood, but the commander, wanting to stop further duelling, 
insisted that it be to the death.  They stopped each time one 
was too wounded to continue, but after a week or two healing, 
the commander set them to it again.  They eventually both 
died, and the commander made a rule that anyone who wanted to 
duel could do so, but they had to fight to the death.  No one 
ever took him up on it again.

There's a great American twist on duelling.  As a means of 
calling out your foe, there was "posting".  You printed up 
handbills and put them all over town. They read, "Mr. X is a 
calumious, cowardly, heathen,..."

The two foes would then stalk each other all over town with 
firearms.  An early 19th century American method.  The locals 
didn't like the idea of two idiots shooting up the town, and 
the handbills, although vaguely humorous, did nothing for the 
local economy other than scare people off.

This further devolution of the "rules" probably made it 
easier to cast a successful duellist as a murderer.  Andrew 
Jackson and other famous American duellists have frequently 
been cast as men who should have shown mercy.
________________
Watching programs run
Endless hours of debugging
Lightning flash outside

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 14:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri May  3 13:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <200205032023.FOG00535@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200205032023.FOG00535@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <200205031648230853.1DD86B4E@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/3/2002 at 4:23 PM John T. Kwon wrote:

>"Hunter Gordon" asks
>>If you have any suggestions for spreading the word that 
>>doesn't cost a ton, I'm all ears!
>>
>
>1.  Find out if there are any TMLers or employees willing to 
>host Traveller games at local shops.  Come up with an 
>introduction to Traveller, how to GM, use some of the 
>original material mixed with yours.  

This has been brought up on the CoTI message boards, and something I'd like=
 to do. Any volunteers? Email me directly if anyone is interested. I'll=
 support you any way we can via material, etc. We might even be able to=
 work out a 'credits' system for each demo that can be spent as $ for=
 product. I don't care if you are demoing CT or T20 (though I'd prefer T20=
 for obvious reasons). If there is enough interest, I'll set up a Demo Team=
 mailing list where we can hash out the best way to run such a project.

>2.  Have these people run those sessions, have them recruit 
>new GMs.  Take as your pattern the whole Pokemon league thing.
>Why shouldn't there be a Traveller league, a certified 
>Traveller GM, etc.  There shouldn't be a fee for this - but 
>if you talk to SJ, Marc, et al, we could spawn a new wave of 
>young people playing the good stuff.

I'm definately not opposed to this. WoTC does this currently through the=
 RPGA and Living Campaigns. We are looking into a Living Imperium campaign=
 to support T20, but I like the idea of an independent Traveller league.=
 This is something we should all (players AND publishers) try to work on to=
 come up with a workable way to handle it.

>3.  Advertise this on a website.  

I have plenty of space and bandwidth...

>4.  We also need to come up with some talking points about 
>how gaming is good for you - I've convinced my wife that her 
>stepson is better off playing Traveller than a video game - 
>and she agrees!  He's read more in the past six months about 
>various subjects than he has in his whole life.  

Yet another good suggestion! Anyone want to start and keep a list of=
 suggestions? Once we have a good piece, I'll have it designed and artwork=
 commissioned to make it look good, and put it up on the website for anyone=
 to take and use.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 14:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri May  3 13:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <200205032023.FOG00535@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEAEDNAA.tml@downport.com>

I did this recently when putting together a web site for a game store. It is
actually fairly easy to talk parents into approving of gaming. Lots of
reading, structure, social interaction, cooperation, imagination... boy,
almost sounds wholesome!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon

> 4.  We also need to come up with some talking points about
> how gaming is good for you - I've convinced my wife that her
> stepson is better off playing Traveller than a video game -
> and she agrees!  He's read more in the past six months about
> various subjects than he has in his whole life.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 14:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 13:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <141.df11651.2a04531a@aol.com>

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John T. Kwon writes:
> 1.  Find out if there are any TMLers or employees willing to 
> host Traveller games at local shops.  Come up with an 
> introduction to Traveller, how to GM, use some of the 
> original material mixed with yours.  
> 
> 2.  Have these people run those sessions, have them recruit 
> new GMs.  Take as your pattern the whole Pokemon league thing.
> Why shouldn't there be a Traveller league, a certified 
> Traveller GM, etc.  There shouldn't be a fee for this - but 
> if you talk to SJ, Marc, et al, we could spawn a new wave of 
> young people playing the good stuff.

Good ideas, so long as the overhead of managing them doesn't get too
big. SJG and QuikLink are both fairly small, overworked companies, so
in this case time is very definitely money.

Now, SJG has a network of demo teams, the "Men in Black." Members
already get bennies for demonstrating SJG products at game stores, local
cons, and so on. I don't know how often G:Traveller is the product line being
demonstrated. Perhaps we can work on that a bit.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>John T. Kwon writes:
<BR>&gt; 1. &nbsp;Find out if there are any TMLers or employees willing to 
<BR>&gt; host Traveller games at local shops. &nbsp;Come up with an 
<BR>&gt; introduction to Traveller, how to GM, use some of the 
<BR>&gt; original material mixed with yours. &nbsp;
<BR>&gt; 
<BR>&gt; 2. &nbsp;Have these people run those sessions, have them recruit 
<BR>&gt; new GMs. &nbsp;Take as your pattern the whole Pokemon league thing.
<BR>&gt; Why shouldn't there be a Traveller league, a certified 
<BR>&gt; Traveller GM, etc. &nbsp;There shouldn't be a fee for this - but 
<BR>&gt; if you talk to SJ, Marc, et al, we could spawn a new wave of 
<BR>&gt; young people playing the good stuff.
<BR>
<BR>Good ideas, so long as the overhead of managing them doesn't get too
<BR>big. SJG and QuikLink are both fairly small, overworked companies, so
<BR>in this case time is very definitely money.
<BR>
<BR>Now, SJG has a network of demo teams, the "Men in Black." Members
<BR>already get bennies for demonstrating SJG products at game stores, local
<BR>cons, and so on. I don't know how often G:Traveller is the product line being
<BR>demonstrated. Perhaps we can work on that a bit.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_141.df11651.2a04531a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 14:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 13:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <29.26a3f130.2a0453da@aol.com>

--part1_29.26a3f130.2a0453da_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hunter Gordon writes:
> I'm definately not opposed to this. WoTC does this currently through the
> RPGA and Living Campaigns. We are looking into a Living Imperium campaign
> to support T20, but I like the idea of an independent Traveller league. 
This is
> something we should all (players AND publishers) try to work on to come up
> with a workable way to handle it.

Hmmmm.

I'd be interested in thinking about this too, always with the "SJG is a small
and overworked company" proviso firmly in the back of my mind. It *would*
be a Good Thing if all extant versions of Traveller got more exposure to the
gaming public. Everyone wins in that case.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_29.26a3f130.2a0453da_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Hunter Gordon writes:
<BR>&gt; I'm definately not opposed to this. WoTC does this currently through the
<BR>&gt; RPGA and Living Campaigns. We are looking into a Living Imperium campaign
<BR>&gt; to support T20, but I like the idea of an independent Traveller league. This is
<BR>&gt; something we should all (players AND publishers) try to work on to come up
<BR>&gt; with a workable way to handle it.
<BR>
<BR>Hmmmm.
<BR>
<BR>I'd be interested in thinking about this too, always with the "SJG is a small
<BR>and overworked company" proviso firmly in the back of my mind. It *would*
<BR>be a Good Thing if all extant versions of Traveller got more exposure to the
<BR>gaming public. Everyone wins in that case.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_29.26a3f130.2a0453da_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri May  3 14:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
References: <200205032033.FOG01676@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD2FAC7.1050200@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Bruce Johnson says
> 
>>Note that duelling fell out of favor as the weapons involved 
>>started making first blood=probable death with the 
>>introduction of firearms.
>>
> 
> 
> There's a history book called The Duel, that catalogs the 
> history from its beginnings to the fade out in modern times.  
> In the US, duelling with firearms fell out of favor not 
> because the two combatants were likely to be killed, but 
> because bystanders tended to get injured or killed (sort of a 
> firing range problem).
> 

Do you have a cite for that book? I'd like to take a look at it.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri May  3 14:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <02b401c1f2bf$60dc4c10$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEPIDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <02b401c1f2bf$60dc4c10$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8f8abb009e5@[143.232.119.186]>

At 5:26 PM +0100 5/3/02, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>Actually it's not a lack of flames that worried me, but a lack of any sort
>of reaction.

My guess is that with CT; people know exactly what one is getting, 
the content is already decided (you aren't going to change something 
by voicing an opinion) and nobody expects that CT will puch their own 
favorite system out of the way.  So nobody really feels the need to 
flame on it.

I would say the silence means that you simply aren't getting info on 
the demand rather than indicating a lack of demand.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May  3 14:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503114632.00b817e0@urbin.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503114632.00b817e0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <m3pu0dym82.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> 
> Although it doesn't state it, I would put forth that the IN Enlisted
> Dress Uniform includes a cutlass.  The foil is reserved for
> Commissioned Officers.

I don't think anyone's going to wear a foil--they are practice
weapons, and otherwise of very little use.  Now, a smallsword (what a
foil mimics) would make sense...  Stiff, sharp, triangular blade,
absolutely deadly.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
According to the latest poll, 60 percent of Americans want
Al Gore to concede the election.  The other 40 percent are
lawyers working for Al Gore.                   --Jay Leno

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri May  3 14:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <29.26a3f130.2a0453da@aol.com>
References: <29.26a3f130.2a0453da@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200205031713300139.1DEF673C@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 5/3/2002 at 4:58 PM JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:

>Hunter Gordon writes:
>> I'm definately not opposed to this. WoTC does this currently through the
>> RPGA and Living Campaigns. We are looking into a Living Imperium=
 campaign
>> to support T20, but I like the idea of an independent Traveller league. 
>This is
>> something we should all (players AND publishers) try to work on to come=
 up
>> with a workable way to handle it.
>
>Hmmmm.
>
>I'd be interested in thinking about this too, always with the "SJG is a=
 small
>and overworked company" proviso firmly in the back of my mind. It *would*
>be a Good Thing if all extant versions of Traveller got more exposure to=
 the
>gaming public. Everyone wins in that case.

Perhaps an 'independent' group with oversight by the licensed publishers?=
 This is how it is done by the RPGA and White Wolf 's group (though I hate=
 mentioning that due to the problems that arrose recently with the White=
 Wolf group).

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May  3 14:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503133742.00b80be0@urbin.net>
References: <B8F809C0.5962D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020503133742.00b80be0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <m3k7qlym29.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
>
> My impression is that it's typically used as a 'badge of noble rank'
> than as a serious weapon.

I'll grant that--but a foil whips about in a very unprofessional
manner.  It's not a very good decorative weapon.

> Every once in a while you'll find a noble who carries a fully
> functional rapier, who knows how to use it.

Rapier or smallsword?  And besides, what noble _wouldn't_ want a
proper weapon?  Even if the odds of ever using it are slim-to-none,
it's better to have it and not need it than not and do.  If you've the
weight hanging at your side anyway, might as well be prepared.

I think it more likely that most nobles would carry a smallsword, and
the ones who are from worlds with a duelling culture may prefer a
rapier.  There are argument for both sides.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
[...a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.]
           --(Lucius Annaeus) Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:14:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri May  3 14:14:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8f8abb009e5@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEPIDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <02b401c1f2bf$60dc4c10$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <p04330103b8f8abb009e5@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <200205031718100091.1DF3ACCD@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/3/2002 at 2:06 PM David P. Summers wrote:

>At 5:26 PM +0100 5/3/02, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>>Actually it's not a lack of flames that worried me, but a lack of any=
 sort
>>of reaction.
>
>My guess is that with CT; people know exactly what one is getting, 
>the content is already decided (you aren't going to change something 
>by voicing an opinion) and nobody expects that CT will puch their own 
>favorite system out of the way.  So nobody really feels the need to 
>flame on it.
>
>I would say the silence means that you simply aren't getting info on 
>the demand rather than indicating a lack of demand.

True, but as a small publisher, we need to know what the demand and=
 thoughts are on a product, good or bad. A lack of response leaves us in a=
 black hole so to speak. A comment was made elsewhere that 'if only GDW had=
 listened to what the fans wanted'. Well we are listening! I am a big fan=
 of giving people what they want. It makes for better sales ;) But we have=
 to know what you want first, and then we need to know if you liked or=
 disliked it.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:14:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May  3 14:14:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <B8F82187.59854%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8F82187.59854%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3g019ylxf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:

>
> Some examples of smallswords:

Also <http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item069.html>.  Whereas
everything else in that section is a rapier.  The smallsword's great
advantage is speed, while a rapier is more of a cut-and-thrust weapon.
To be quite honest, much as I prefer rapiers, the smallsword makes a
lot more sense.  Get in, get out, don't dilly-dally.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
No, officer, it was strictly a *decorative* beartrap.  --Chris Knight

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <B8F809C0.5962D%webmaster@travellercentral.com><5.1.0.14.0.20020503133742.00b80be0@urbin.net> <m3k7qlym29.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <001001c1f2e8$ca9150a0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

:
> >
> > My impression is that it's typically used as a 'badge of noble rank'
> > than as a serious weapon.
>
> I'll grant that--but a foil whips about in a very unprofessional
> manner.  It's not a very good decorative weapon.

A modern fencing foil does that becuase of the diamond cross-seciton. Make
it a little thivker in the "edge" dimension (like a fencing sabre) and it
doesn't/ If you look at the illos in TA#1. the Traveller foil isn't a modern
fencing foil.


> > Every once in a while you'll find a noble who carries a fully
> > functional rapier, who knows how to use it.
>
> Rapier or smallsword?  And besides, what noble _wouldn't_ want a
> proper weapon?  Even if the odds of ever using it are slim-to-none,
> it's better to have it and not need it than not and do.  If you've the
> weight hanging at your side anyway, might as well be prepared.
>
> I think it more likely that most nobles would carry a smallsword, and
> the ones who are from worlds with a duelling culture may prefer a
> rapier.  There are argument for both sides.

A smallsword = a foil, as I've already said. Smallswords were slightly
thicker and stiffer, which is how the Traveller foil is. Foil <> modern
fencing foil.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503114632.00b817e0@urbin.net> <m3pu0dym82.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <001701c1f2e8$f53db140$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I don't think anyone's going to wear a foil--they are practice
> weapons, and otherwise of very little use.

The modern fencing foil is, yes. The Traveller foil is different; it's a
real sword.

>Now, a smallsword (what a
> foil mimics) would make sense...  Stiff, sharp, triangular blade,
> absolutely deadly.
>

Yes. A Traveller foil = a smallsword but with an edge.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:25:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May  3 14:25:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <200205031903.FOC06356@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200205031903.FOC06356@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3bsbwzzzr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
>
> If duelling exists IYTU, are there age-old rules?

In every universe I've ever set a game or dreamt a story, duelling
exists.  I tend to think that outlawing the duel was one of the worst
things any government has done.  After all, it allows two men to
settle their differences between themselves, as opposed to dragging
myriads of others into things.

Generally I imagine that duelling works as it did in Germany (that
being the subject of a book I once read...).  The principals disagree,
one challenges the other, seconds are appointed, entreaties are made
to settle amicably, a time and place are set, a doctor procured, the
battle fought, the body dragged off.

All very nice and civilised.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
It is poor social hygeine to put in place systems that could facilitate
a police state.                                        --Bruce Schneier

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matt Ashley)
Date: Fri May  3 14:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Stuff
Message-ID: <20020503212521.29165.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com>

I would definitely buy a board game that covered all or part of the Rim War.  Give us a counter
mix and some basic economic rules.

You could throw in some build-it-yourself rules as an extra or release it as a separate supplement
to churn more cash (I would buy everything you could throw out there).  Cross the counter stats
over to the CT/MT/T20/T4/GT design rules and I will build a 20' bronze statue of you!

Matt Ashley



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May  3 14:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <001001c1f2e8$ca9150a0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020461356.5736.ajackson@ping>

MJ Dougherty writes:
> 
> A modern fencing foil does that becuase of the diamond cross-seciton. Make
> it a little thivker in the "edge" dimension (like a fencing sabre) and it
> doesn't/ If you look at the illos in TA#1. the Traveller foil isn't a
> modern fencing foil.

In which case, why the heck is it called a 'foil'?  If a traveller 'foil' is a
smallsword, call it a smallsword.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <20020503.131246.-170827.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <005b01c1f2e9$daa2ab00$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Oh! For a moment there I thought you were talking about the other
> finger...
>
>

The one that presses the Death Ray Button is quite powerful too. What did
YOU mean???


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:33:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri May  3 14:33:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <m3g019ylxf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFFHAAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Of course you do have to consider that amour is a lot more common,
think space suits, I'd go with a poignard or a similar pig sticker,
about the same length as a small sword, heavy enough to go through 
armor, ignore a parry from a lighter weapon, and still light enough 
to move quickly.  Failing that I'd go with a saber, a real one not one 
of the 'salle' tit-a-li-winks

jml
yes I do fence


Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:

>
> Some examples of smallswords:

Also <http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item069.html>.  Whereas
everything else in that section is a rapier.  The smallsword's great
advantage is speed, while a rapier is more of a cut-and-thrust weapon.
To be quite honest, much as I prefer rapiers, the smallsword makes a
lot more sense.  Get in, get out, don't dilly-dally.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
No, officer, it was strictly a *decorative* beartrap.  --Chris Knight
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503133742.00b80be0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020503153711.00b90ec0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <006601c1f2ea$65779790$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

day as the court sword or dress sword.
>
> It sounds like what CT & T20 call a 'foil' is more like your example of a
> smallsword.

Yes. Yes. YES!

> You would still get a range of quality.  If a Noble picks his sword
because
> the jewel in the hilt matches his cape, it a decoration.
> If there is a sweat stained pair of fencing gloves tucked in the belt next
> to a plain, worn hilt and scratched bell guard...be polite.

Absolutely. My own foil has a curious dent in the guard. It can't be from a
parry, so how did it come about?

It's not obvious from a "fencing" grip.

But if you take the weapon by the forte, close to the hilt, in your right
hand, and a little short of the foible with your left, then the dent becomes
obvious.

It was caused by impact with an opponent's chin.

I won that fight.

QED.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:36:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri May  3 14:36:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <005b01c1f2e9$daa2ab00$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEFGHAAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Thumbs down works too



>
> Oh! For a moment there I thought you were talking about the other
> finger...
>
>

The one that presses the Death Ray Button is quite powerful too. What did
YOU mean???

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 14:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Martin's worries
Message-ID: <10e.10ac81fe.2a045d05@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/3/2002 11:48:54 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>Actually it's not a lack of flames that worried me, but a lack of any sort
>of reaction.

I usually interpret lack of comments as a sign of satisfaction. People are 
slower to praise than to condemn, I've found.

My advice is to try not to think about it so much.

Geez, I'm beginning to sound like the old Jedi advising the younger one . . . 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:39:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:39:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <20020503164735.EE73F279F1@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CD2CFBE.FE54E36F@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <007301c1f2ea$bcc76de0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Less than one. Unless of course the FFE reprints don't count as CT or
> oficial. :D

NEW CT product. Beg pardon.

>
> Two reviews on RPG.net is more than nothing. Sure they hit on tuesday
> and fell off the front page before a lot of people saw it but that is
> two more reviews than the Adventure reprint books got.

We had to pretty much bribe people to write reviews - though we agreed that
the content stood, good or bad.

>
> >
> > This worries me.
>
> You give almost no PR push for your product and then get worried because
> nobody knows it exists? Perhaps you should look into spreading the news
> more.

Well, when you announce a new CT product on a Traveller list and nobody
takes any notice at all, you wonder if it's worth spending money on
advertising. Which is what we wanted to know...

>> As for my reaction to TA1 itself. It's a PDF. I don't buy PDF's. If you
> want my business you need to give me an actual tangible product that
> I can hold in my hands. That's just the way I am.

Okay. Though we cannot afford to put out print supplements at this time.

>
> I'm also not sure what sense it makes to release a supplement for a game
> that isn't even out yet. Or doesn't even seem to have a firm release
> date.

CT has been out for some time, I believe.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:41:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:41:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <B8F809C0.5962D%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020503133742.00b80be0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020503153252.00b88560@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <007e01c1f2ea$f218dfb0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Yes, but you can still run into the occasional Baron who likes to keep his
> fingers in the wetwork....
>
> "If you want something done right," BLAM, BLAM, "You just have to do it
> yourself."
>

There are, of course, Nobles who lead Army or Marine units. That pointing
finger holds a meson designator. Bye.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:41:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:41:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Concerns (MJ Dougherty)
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36AF@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <009801c1f2eb$253a0400$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> <snip Andy's comments>
> So consider me 100% on the QuikLink/T20/CT bandwagon, as a consumer, a
> player, a GM, and hopefully even a contributor. I'm looking forward to the
> ride :)
>

OUR bandwagon has meson guns and superdense armour. And big, iron tracks.
You'll see.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri May  3 14:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Martin's worries
In-Reply-To: <10e.10ac81fe.2a045d05@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEFHHAAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Trust your books Luke

This is the game you want to buy


jml
did Yoda use a Light smallsword?


>Actually it's not a lack of flames that worried me, but a lack of any sort
>of reaction.

I usually interpret lack of comments as a sign of satisfaction. People are
slower to praise than to condemn, I've found.

My advice is to try not to think about it so much.

Geez, I'm beginning to sound like the old Jedi advising the younger one . .
.



_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
References: <200205031903.FOC06356@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c301c1f2eb$d6cd4e20$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> I happen to like the idea of duelling as a means of settling
> social hash.  I would think that it tends to silence the
> meager of mind early in life.
>

I think it places much in perspective: "is this worth a duel? No? then let's
forget it and agree to disagree" rather than the petty sniping that can
sometimes go on.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <175.7b9ef9e.2a0434db@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00de01c1f2ec$0b96f250$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

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    We're talking to some hardcore CT fans about writing CT adventures =
(with T20=20
    stats, yes...). I want to know if it's worth their time and ours.=20

    Maybe it is....


  Would these possibly be done in the same fashion as the CT Double =
Adventure modules? With the CT stats one way, and the T20 stats the =
other?=20


  We were planning on doing straight adventures (they're PDFs remember?) =
and just having two sets of stats...

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2><BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">We're talking to some hardcore CT fans about writing CT=20
    adventures (with T20 <BR>stats, yes...). I want to know if it's =
worth their=20
    time and ours. <BR><BR>Maybe it is....</FONT><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3DArial=20
    color=3D#000000 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR>Would these possibly be done in the same =
fashion as the=20
  CT Double Adventure modules? With the CT stats one way, and the T20 =
stats the=20
  other?&nbsp;<BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">We were=20
  planning on doing straight adventures (they're PDFs remember?) and =
just having=20
  two sets of stats...</DIV></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <ML-2.3.1020451455.9882.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <00ef01c1f2ec$3599f390$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

----- Original Message -----
From> >
> > Well, the foil seems like a very bad choice.  It is a fencing weapon.
>
> It's not even a weapon, it's a sport implement.  I can imagine a midlength
> fencing weapon being a mark of rank, but I'm not sure why it would be
called a
> foil.  I'm inclined to agree about the smallsword.


Foil is the name that is used in the 57th century, probably for the same
reason that a foiled rapier became a "foil" i.e. a training weapon.

A Traveller foil is not a modern fencing foil....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:49:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:49:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <194.677e8eb.2a043362@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00f301c1f2ec$48a597a0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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  Will this be Open Source? That is, would I be able to use this prior =
history system in a D20 book _I_ might write?=20


  Err... Hunter?

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2><BR></FONT><FONT =
lang=3D0 face=3DArial=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR>Will this be Open Source? That is, would I be =
able to=20
  use this prior history system in a D20 book _I_ might write? =
<BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Err...=20
  Hunter?</DIV></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEPIDMAA.tml@downport.com> <02b401c1f2bf$60dc4c10$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3CD2D6FA.6080508@pcola.gulf.net>
Message-ID: <010a01c1f2ec$890eb290$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> As for the Traveller's Aide #1....give me a few days to finish the term,
> buy the darn thing and digest it.

Hmm. PDFs aren't too nutritious, dude. You might want to add some
cauliflower or something.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <B8F82187.59854%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <011701c1f2ec$a5eb27e0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> Certainly the long blade and the wide guard are not conducive to carry.
As
> mentioned previously, I have always assumed that the noble or officers
sword
> was based on the much more useful and far more attractive smallsword.  The
> smallsword is really nothing like the foil.  The blade construction is
quite
> a bit more robust, more like an epee but typically shorter and broader.
> Some examples even have cutting edges.

I've worn a sword all day. It's no big once you're used to it.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEEEHAAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <011e01c1f2ec$c8d59a10$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Seriously I'm waiting for T20 to come out and
> I'll buy it at my local gaming store.  I tend
> not to buy gaming stuff on line as I believe
> in supporting my local gaming store.


You can't get the Traveller's Aides in a gaming store... they're PDFs (God
send us the day when we can afford to put them out in print form)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:53:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:53:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEEDHAAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <012e01c1f2ec$dbda1230$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>



> come now, you've got to remember where these nobles sprang from. 
> Not from whacking opponents over the head with a pointy stick, rather 
> by a leveraged buy out of said opponents life, world, family tree, and 
> pretty much anything else you could pick up.  Killing
> your enemy is for amateurs, they don't suffer nearly long enough and 
> you don't get any useful work out of them.
> 
> military line go with the pistol look
> civilian lines a dagger or a riding crop
>

Yup. Real power is found in the portfolio....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:54:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matt Ashley)
Date: Fri May  3 14:54:15 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Products
Message-ID: <20020503215227.607.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com>

How about different TL versions of items?  Forex most of the CT and GT items have an example at
the TL of introduction and maybe, just maybe an example at a higher TL.  It would be nice to see
examples of a TL9/12/15 laser pistol or a TL9 version of the air raft.

There is a lot of coarse granularity in examples of items and equipment across the TL's and plenty
of room to fill stuff in.

Matt

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:54:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 14:54:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <20020503.145218.-126927.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

> > Oh! For a moment there I thought you were talking about the other
> > finger...
> 
> The one that presses the Death Ray Button is quite powerful too. 
> What did YOU mean???

OH!

AH!

Never  mind!

<Looks both ways>

<Quietly ducks back into the shadows>

<Mumbles to self>

"I sure hope they didn't see my rank!"


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 14:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
Message-ID: <012f01c1f2ed$278cbbb0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

We're thinking of putting out (alongside the Traveller's Aide series) a
quarterly Traveller PDF magazine (probably for free)

It'd be filled with short contributions (e.g. Amber Zones and Patron
Encounter type things) contributed by fans. Comments on the concept?



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:56:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri May  3 14:56:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Martin's worries
In-Reply-To: <10e.10ac81fe.2a045d05@aol.com>
References: <10e.10ac81fe.2a045d05@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200205031758450664.1E18D6C1@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/3/2002 at 5:37 PM GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>My advice is to try not to think about it so much.
>
>Geez, I'm beginning to sound like the old Jedi advising the younger one .=
 . . 

LOL! Thanks, your advice I will always welcome, unless of course your=
 advice involves attempting to blow up moon sized space stations... But=
 then again, that might be fun too!

Hunter 
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:57:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Fri May  3 14:57:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <007301c1f2ea$bcc76de0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <20020503164735.EE73F279F1@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3CD2CFBE.FE54E36F@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020503164913.02170640@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

--=====================_64916148==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 10:37 PM 5/3/02 +0100, you wrote:
> > You give almost no PR push for your product and then get worried because
> > nobody knows it exists? Perhaps you should look into spreading the news
> > more.
>
>Well, when you announce a new CT product on a Traveller list and nobody
>takes any notice at all, you wonder if it's worth spending money on
>advertising. Which is what we wanted to know...

Martin,

Be careful here.  TA #1 is both a CT and a t20 product.  Some of us (like 
me) prefer CT, but may not have taken immediate notice because it seemed to 
be more tied to t20 than CT.  Once I had a look at it, I realized just how 
cross-platform it was, and decided to buy it.  (This is a relatively 
lengthy way of saying, "don't get worried if people are still thinkin'")

 > I'm also not sure what sense it makes to release a supplement for a game
> > that isn't even out yet. Or doesn't even seem to have a firm release
> > date.
>
>CT has been out for some time, I believe.

But t20 isn't - and you know that's what he meant.  Personally, I *bought* 
it (past tense please note) because it looked useful to me in my CT 
campaign.  This despite my *initial* impression that it was more a t20 product.

Victor


Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department

--=====================_64916148==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 10:37 PM 5/3/02 +0100, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt; You give almost no PR push for
your product and then get worried because<br>
&gt; nobody knows it exists? Perhaps you should look into spreading the
news<br>
&gt; more.<br><br>
Well, when you announce a new CT product on a Traveller list and
nobody<br>
takes any notice at all, you wonder if it's worth spending money on<br>
advertising. Which is what we wanted to know...</blockquote><br>
Martin,<br><br>
Be careful here.&nbsp; TA #1 is both a CT and a t20 product.&nbsp; Some
of us (like me) prefer CT, but may not have taken immediate notice
because it seemed to be more tied to t20 than CT.&nbsp; Once I had a look
at it, I realized just how cross-platform it was, and decided to buy
it.&nbsp; (This is a relatively lengthy way of saying, &quot;don't get
worried if people are still thinkin'&quot;)<br><br>
&gt; I'm also not sure what sense it makes to release a supplement for a
game<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>&gt; that isn't even out yet. Or
doesn't even seem to have a firm release<br>
&gt; date.<br><br>
CT has been out for some time, I believe.</blockquote><br>
But t20 isn't - and you know that's what he meant.&nbsp; Personally, I
*bought* it (past tense please note) because it looked useful to me in my
CT campaign.&nbsp; This despite my *initial* impression that it was more
a t20 product.<br><br>
Victor<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size=1>Victor Raymond&nbsp; /
vraymond@iastate.edu<br>
ISU Sociology Department<br>
</font></html>

--=====================_64916148==_.ALT--



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 15:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri May  3 14:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <011e01c1f2ec$c8d59a10$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEEEHAAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
 <011e01c1f2ec$c8d59a10$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <200205031802460620.1E1C83FE@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/3/2002 at 10:51 PM MJ Dougherty wrote:

>> Seriously I'm waiting for T20 to come out and
>> I'll buy it at my local gaming store.  I tend
>> not to buy gaming stuff on line as I believe
>> in supporting my local gaming store.
>
>
>You can't get the Traveller's Aides in a gaming store... they're PDFs (God
>send us the day when we can afford to put them out in print form)

Martin forgets we are planning a 'Best of' print edition at the end of each=
 year (and this is also a freebie if you take a 12-issue subscription).=
 Though I am with him on getting to the day soon we CAN put them all in=
 print on a monthly schedule.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:00:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri May  3 15:00:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <3CD307A4.4578A12@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 16:20:30 -0400
> From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>

> If you have any suggestions for spreading the word that doesn't 
> cost a ton, I'm all ears!

Not sure if their still doing it but rpg.net was offering free 
banner adds for game companies. How many game news sites have 
you sent press releases to? Do you maintain a usenet presence?

All I can think of at the moment. 

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 15:02:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Martin's worries
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEFHHAAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <014f01c1f2ee$0e1e0070$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> My advice is to try not to think about it so much.
>
> Geez, I'm beginning to sound like the old Jedi advising the younger one .
.

"Publish, or publish not. There is no ask opinions of the TML...."

(it's a little known fact that in an early draft of the Star Wars script,
the Force was actually a mental trait known as 'Fucking Desperation'

Hence, "This one is Fucking Desperate" was replaced by "the Force is strong
with this one" and "The Force can have a powerful effect on the weak of
mind" was actually "It was all I could think of. I was Fucking Desperate".

My own Traveller campaign may soon introduce an FD stat.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 15:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Martin's worries
References: <10e.10ac81fe.2a045d05@aol.com>
Message-ID: <015a01c1f2ee$3ee8b1a0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> >Actually it's not a lack of flames that worried me, but a lack of any
sort
> >of reaction.
>
> I usually interpret lack of comments as a sign of satisfaction. People are
> slower to praise than to condemn, I've found.
>
> My advice is to try not to think about it so much.
>
> Geez, I'm beginning to sound like the old Jedi advising the younger one .
. .
>

"Reach out with your lightsaber, Luke. Stuff the feelings bit. Just twat the
bastards" - another early alteration in the script.

But yeah. Point taken .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 15:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFFHAAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <016101c1f2ee$946c5370$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Of course you do have to consider that amour is a lot more common,
> think space suits, I'd go with a poignard or a similar pig sticker,
> about the same length as a small sword, heavy enough to go through
> armor, ignore a parry from a lighter weapon, and still light enough
> to move quickly.  Failing that I'd go with a saber, a real one not one
> of the 'salle' tit-a-li-winks

A light cut-and-thrust sword is my choice against unarmoured opponents. Or
maybe a Katana.

A shotgun is also good.

But overall, it's your traning, not your weapon, that makes you dangerous,



>
> jml
> yes I do fence

Me too. Sometimes I combine fencing and Ju-Jotsu for the surprise effect...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri May  3 15:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
References: <200205031903.FOC06356@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <m3bsbwzzzr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3CD309E6.3000802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Robert Uhl  wrote:

> Generally I imagine that duelling works as it did in Germany (that
> being the subject of a book I once read...).  The principals disagree,
> one challenges the other, seconds are appointed, entreaties are made
> to settle amicably, a time and place are set, a doctor procured, the
> battle fought, the body dragged off.
> 
> All very nice and civilised.

Well, as civilized as sanctioned murder can be, that is. It is merely 
yet another example of 'Rule by Bully'...the strong can prey on the weak 
at will.

It settles nothing other than killing the person who is isn't as 
good/lucky that day.

It is like any other 'Trial by Combat' method, utterly divorced from the 
truth of the matter, which is what 'drawing those myriad others' into 
disputes is intended to do.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:07:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 15:07:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <ML-2.3.1020461356.5736.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <016801c1f2ee$b8a93640$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

-----
> MJ Dougherty writes:
> >
> > A modern fencing foil does that becuase of the diamond cross-seciton.
Make
> > it a little thivker in the "edge" dimension (like a fencing sabre) and
it
> > doesn't/ If you look at the illos in TA#1. the Traveller foil isn't a
> > modern fencing foil.
>
> In which case, why the heck is it called a 'foil'?  If a traveller 'foil'
is a
> smallsword, call it a smallsword.


Because the original Traveller designers called it that. I guess it's
because it most resembled a fencing foil, and the term "smallsword" had
lapsed where Foil had not.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri May  3 15:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <3CD307A4.4578A12@ameritech.net>
References: <3CD307A4.4578A12@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <200205031812510960.1E25C09A@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/3/2002 at 4:56 PM David Shayne wrote:

>> Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 16:20:30 -0400
>> From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>
>> If you have any suggestions for spreading the word that doesn't 
>> cost a ton, I'm all ears!
>
>Not sure if their still doing it but rpg.net was offering free 
>banner adds for game companies. How many game news sites have 
>you sent press releases to? Do you maintain a usenet presence?
>
>All I can think of at the moment. 

I emailed them a few days ago about just this, but haven't heard back. I=
 did just list TA1 in their new online store, and am pestering them further=
 about ads. 

I do have an ad running over at ENWorld currently to test the waters,=
 though that is almost exclusively a d20 site.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:09:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 15:09:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEPIDMAA.tml@downport.com> <02b401c1f2bf$60dc4c10$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <p04330103b8f8abb009e5@[143.232.119.186]> <200205031718100091.1DF3ACCD@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <017501c1f2ee$e4b41570$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

A comment was made elsewhere that 'if only GDW had listened to what the fans
wanted'.

That was in my mind too, oddly enough.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 15:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <20020503164735.EE73F279F1@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CD2CFBE.FE54E36F@ameritech.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020503164913.02170640@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <01a201c1f2ef$d631fbb0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0195_01C1F2F8.255149A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Martin,

Be careful here.  TA #1 is both a CT and a t20 product.  Some of us =
(like me) prefer CT, but may not have taken immediate notice because it =
seemed to be more tied to t20 than CT.  Once I had a look at it, I =
realized just how cross-platform it was, and decided to buy it.  (This =
is a relatively lengthy way of saying, "don't get worried if people are =
still thinkin'")

** I hear you. But I had no indication that any thinkin' was going on at =
all. With our future tied to this line, it's kinda scary to be facing a =
big silence....

CT has been out for some time, I believe.

  But t20 isn't - and you know that's what he meant. =20

  ** I do? Oh, good.=20

  Seriously, this shows that we failed to make it sufficiently clear =
that this was aso a CT product. That sort of thing we need to know....


** Personally, I *bought* it (past tense please note) because it looked =
useful to me in my CT campaign.  This despite my *initial* impression =
that it was more a t20 product.

**  See above comment. I hope it's useful to you and fun too,

------=_NextPart_000_0195_01C1F2F8.255149A0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Martin,<BR><BR>Be careful here.&nbsp; TA #1 is both a CT and a t20=20
product.&nbsp; Some of us (like me) prefer CT, but may not have taken =
immediate=20
notice because it seemed to be more tied to t20 than CT.&nbsp; Once I =
had a look=20
at it, I realized just how cross-platform it was, and decided to buy =
it.&nbsp;=20
(This is a relatively lengthy way of saying, "don't get worried if =
people are=20
still thinkin'")</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>** I hear you. But I had no indication =
that any=20
thinkin' was going on at all. With our future tied to this line, it's =
kinda=20
scary to be facing a big silence....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CT has been out for some time, I believe.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><BR>But t20 isn't - and you know that's what he meant.&nbsp; =
</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>** I do? Oh, good. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Seriously, this shows that we failed =
to make it=20
  sufficiently clear that this was aso a CT product. That sort of thing =
we need=20
  to know....</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>** Personally, I *bought* it =
(past tense=20
please note) because it looked useful to me in my CT campaign.&nbsp; =
This=20
despite my *initial* impression that it was more a t20 =
product.<BR><BR>**&nbsp;=20
See above comment. I hope it's useful to you and fun=20
too,</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0195_01C1F2F8.255149A0--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:15:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 15:15:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <20020503.145218.-126927.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <01ab01c1f2ef$f0290450$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> > > Oh! For a moment there I thought you were talking about the other
> > > finger...
> > 
> > The one that presses the Death Ray Button is quite powerful too. 
> > What did YOU mean???
> 
> OH!
> 
> AH!
> 
> Never  mind!
> 
> <Looks both ways>
> 
> <Quietly ducks back into the shadows>
> 
> <Mumbles to self>
> 
> "I sure hope they didn't see my rank!"
> 

I do NOT want to think about this.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May  3 15:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Today's Haiku
In-Reply-To: <02d401c1f2c0$f3528a40$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205030925180.16172-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <02d401c1f2c0$f3528a40$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020504081641.A6349@freeman.little-possums.net>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> Could someone invent a seek-and-destroy file? That would be better

Only if he uses Outlook :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May  3 15:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <01f001c1f2f0$c7dd3380$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Folks, in case we've missed anything obvious....

Can anyone suggest a place to post press releases?

Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Fri May  3 15:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
In-Reply-To: <012f01c1f2ed$278cbbb0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <20020503222635.57517.qmail@web13306.mail.yahoo.com>

--- MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> We're thinking of putting out (alongside the
> Traveller's Aide series) a
> quarterly Traveller PDF magazine (probably for free)
> 
> It'd be filled with short contributions (e.g. Amber
> Zones and Patron
> Encounter type things) contributed by fans. Comments
> on the concept?



Its a good idea, but what has drummed up a lot of
interest in games that I've seen is a "light" version
of a game. If a Traveller Lite, similar to GURPS Lite
or Mekton Alpha, were made avilable for download FREE
then people would try it out just because it wouldn't
cost anything. There are still a lot of gamers out
there who don't have large disposable incomes and
would rather sample a game before buying it,
especially with the current increase in prices for
WotC role-playing products. 

Create a simplified version of Traveller for download,
have it be short (no more than 10 pages). Make the
download a PDF file so that when you are attending a
convention, you can print out enough to give away to
the attendees. Include just enough in Traveller Lite
to whet the gamers' appetites so that they should
purchase the whole game to get all of it to satisfy
themselves. This kind of marketting strategy has
worked with Vampire the Masquerade, Dungeons and
Dragons, GURPS, Mekton Zeta, and Fuzion.

Jeff M> Hopper

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May  3 15:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1020442972.54.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020503230534.C4543@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1020442972.54.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020504082713.B6349@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Just normal FFS2 radiators.  1 square meter per gigawatt if unstealthy
> (11,500k),

Ow!  That thing's a health hazard.  If it's in low orbit above an
Earthlike planet, anyone looking up at it will have permanent damage
done to their retina unless it's very careful to direct all radiation
away from the planet at all times.  It would cast noticeable shadows
in daylight.  (The health effect would be worse if the atmosphere
allows more UV through than Earth's does)

Oh well, nobody ever said military hardware was safe.


> Probably not as dense, but more armor and weapon.  Assuming the
> standard DR 70/inch (DR 28/mm) for steel,

Isn't that 2.8/mm, so that the T4 armour value is equal to the GURPS
DR?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Fri May  3 15:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Today's Haiku
In-Reply-To: <200205031512.FNU07726@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBJPOIMLOFKGNDLCPCKEFNEAAA.andy@exeus.com>

Your haiku is right.
I agree, no more ranting.
More Traveller, Please !

/Andy B
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 19/04/2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri May  3 15:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <200205031620300216.1DBEE1AA@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205031528520.23531-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 3 May 2002, Hunter Gordon wrote:

> On 5/3/2002 at 12:58 PM David Shayne wrote:
> 
> >As for my reaction to TA1 itself. It's a PDF. I don't buy PDF's. If you
> >want my business you need to give me an actual tangible product that
> >I can hold in my hands. That's just the way I am. 
> 
> I can understand that. It is one of the reasons we plan to release a
> 'Best of' each year that will be printed and distributed. 12-issue
> subscribers get a copy free.

But I'd really rather not subscribe and just buy the book.  Can I do that?

I don't have a printer hooked up to the laptop, and my desktop doesn't
like PDF's.

A lot of folks still don't like e-books.  I'm one of them.

Until I'm able to carry it around with me, not worry about breaking it,
and it doesn't give me major eyestrain, I'm not going for it.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri May  3 15:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <20020503202505.3E594279C6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00b801c1f2f3$b68c3060$945d8690@computer>

> From: "Hunter Gordon"
> T20 is set around the year 1000, just before the end of the Rim War. The=
>  war is currently still raging, but the tide is beginning to turn in
favor=
>  of the Imps.
>
> Note that the setting though is not in the Rim, but in Gateway (though=
>  there are still problems with Sollie agitators in the region)

This is what you get if you take the Milieu date too seriously.  If you set
your game at the start of the war, the Solomani border was very close to
Gateway.  You're not at the front, but the agitators (and commerce
raiders!!!!!!) are a real threat.  In addition, you don't have to tell your
players that the Impies are going to win.

Besides, if the Sollies are too successful, the clique that deposed Emperor
Styryx might be discredited, giving the true Emperor a chance to regain his
throne.  : )

Year 1000 isn't the best setting for Milieu 1000, IMHO.  The early 990's are
more interesting.  Obviously it would only take a stroke of the pen to make
the change...

If I didn't have so much timewasting nonsense on my plate at the moment, I'd
write an adventure involving Styryx.  A disgruntled former Emperor is too
interesting to waste.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com

(Someone mentioned Polybian Romans a couple of digests ago.  Hmm.)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May  3 15:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
In-Reply-To: <20020504082713.B6349@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020465578.524.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Just normal FFS2 radiators.  1 square meter per gigawatt if unstealthy
> > (11,500k),
> 
> Ow!  That thing's a health hazard.

Well, a lot of components in FFS have vastly inflated power consumption, and
the remainder is generally stuff that emits energy and thus might produce a lot
less heat than its total power consumption.  Bump the efficiency of various
devices to 90% and radiator temperature is down to 6,500 degrees, which isn't a
worse health hazard than sunlight.

Of course, a 600 gigawatt radiator will be as bright as the sun at ~12
kilometers.
> > Probably not as dense, but more armor and weapon.  Assuming the
> > standard DR 70/inch (DR 28/mm) for steel,
> 
> Isn't that 2.8/mm, so that the T4 armour value is equal to the GURPS
> DR?

Sorry, my bad on terminology.  I meant centimeters (T4 is 2.8/cm).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri May  3 15:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <3CD31190.26568C92@ameritech.net>

> From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 22:37:03 +0100

>>
>> Less than one. Unless of course the FFE reprints don't count as 
>> CT or oficial. :D
>
> NEW CT product. Beg pardon.
>

<snip>

> We had to pretty much bribe people to write reviews - though we 
> agreed that the content stood, good or bad.

I didn't see that you had allowed much time for people to have read
the product much less compose a substantial review before you
whipped out the incentives. But maybe your right and people wouldn't
have reviewed it without your initiative. Only alt-historians can
know for sure.

<snip>

>> As for my reaction to TA1 itself. It's a PDF. I don't buy PDF's. 
>> If you want my business you need to give me an actual tangible 
>> product that I can hold in my hands. That's just the way I am.
>
> Okay. Though we cannot afford to put out print supplements at 
> this time.

Fair enough. I'm just telling you why I'm not interested in the
product and what it would take to get me interested in your 
product.

>> I'm also not sure what sense it makes to release a supplement 
>> for a game that isn't even out yet. Or doesn't even seem to 
>> have a firm release date.
>
> CT has been out for some time, I believe.

Hoist by my own petard! Though in my defense I would like to 
point out that TA1 is a dual stated product and one of the
stat sets is for a game that isn't out yet.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May  3 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <200205031903.FOC06356@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8F860F9.598E9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 12:03 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> If duelling exists IYTU, are there age-old rules?
> 
> Comments, please.

Dueling IMTU.  But of course.  Naturally, it is illegal, but the authorities
will look the other way.

The degree and practice of dueling varies from lace to place.  On some
worlds it is highly ritualized and rarely fatal (Much like Schlager deuling
in the late 19th century).  In other places it is very serious business.

I recall one world where the duel was fought with pistols.  A coin was
tossed to determine who should first receive fire (a la Barry Linden).  One
is very careful with bad manners or the careless word on this world.  Even
an accomplished pistol shot has a 50% chance of having to stand still and
receive his challenger's fire first.

I've also had the tradition of someone 'calling another out', which does not
even require the pretense of insult.

In general, within the Imperium amongst the nobility and upper classes there
is a long tradition of dueling and for that, the old 'Code Duelo' is still
the guide.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri May  3 15:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Today's Haiku
In-Reply-To: <20020504081641.A6349@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205031546330.23531-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 4 May 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

> MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > Could someone invent a seek-and-destroy file? That would be better
> 
> Only if he uses Outlook :)
> 
stop that, I just bought this laptop and the keyboard isn't easily
replaceable!
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri May  3 15:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200205032249.g43Mn8R22026@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Shawn R Sears" <ShawnSears@telocity.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
...
>> transportation. In the U.S. public transport, be it Amtrak or local public
>> transport the critics always complain that it must pay for itself. In the
>> states most places don't have public transport because the claim
>> is that it must pay for itself.
>
>Everyone benefits from the use of roads and rails.

  So? What, are you some kind of commie fellow Traveller?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri May  3 15:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <00b801c1f2f3$b68c3060$945d8690@computer>
References: <20020503202505.3E594279C6@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <00b801c1f2f3$b68c3060$945d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <200205031855050093.1E4C67A6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/4/2002 at 8:40 AM Alan Bradley wrote:

>> From: "Hunter Gordon"
>> T20 is set around the year 1000, just before the end of the Rim War.=
 The=3D
>>  war is currently still raging, but the tide is beginning to turn in
>favor=3D
>>  of the Imps.
>>
>> Note that the setting though is not in the Rim, but in Gateway=
 (though=3D
>>  there are still problems with Sollie agitators in the region)

>Year 1000 isn't the best setting for Milieu 1000, IMHO.  The early 990's=
 are
>more interesting.  Obviously it would only take a stroke of the pen to=
 make
>the change...

True and that might happen before we release. But in the same token, there=
 are events abrewing in the Gateway region too. Nothing Imperium shattering=
 or anything that would screw the timeline, but events with at least=
 regional impact and of importance to those in the region if not the=
 Imperium itself.

>If I didn't have so much timewasting nonsense on my plate at the moment,=
 I'd
>write an adventure involving Styryx.  A disgruntled former Emperor is too
>interesting to waste.

Heh, we agree. I will note that Styryx 'retires' to Ley Sector upon his=
 'abdication'. What happens from there, well that would be letting the cat=
 out of the bag.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May  3 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1020465578.524.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020504082713.B6349@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1020465578.524.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020504085837.A6648@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Well, a lot of components in FFS have vastly inflated power consumption, and
> the remainder is generally stuff that emits energy and thus might produce a lot
> less heat than its total power consumption.

But then you have to worry about what happens to that emitted energy,
and *it's* long-range health effects.  In the case of weapons it's
pretty obvious :), but what happens to the power that goes into
thruster plates, for example?


> Of course, a 600 gigawatt radiator will be as bright as the sun at
> ~12 kilometers.

Yes; a seriously difficult thing with which to dock without vaporising
the more temperature-sensitive parts of your hull, one would imagine.
Again, keeping the radiators pointed in the right direction would be a
major part of routine piloting.


> Sorry, my bad on terminology.  I meant centimeters (T4 is 2.8/cm).

OK, that makes more sense now.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri May  3 16:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205031528520.23531-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205031528520.23531-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <200205031904100557.1E54BA5F@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/3/2002 at 3:34 PM Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

>> I can understand that. It is one of the reasons we plan to release a
>> 'Best of' each year that will be printed and distributed. 12-issue
>> subscribers get a copy free.
>
>But I'd really rather not subscribe and just buy the book.  Can I do that?

The 'Best of' edition will be sold individually and available at your FLGS


>I don't have a printer hooked up to the laptop, and my desktop doesn't
>like PDF's.
>
>A lot of folks still don't like e-books.  I'm one of them.
>
>Until I'm able to carry it around with me, not worry about breaking it,
>and it doesn't give me major eyestrain, I'm not going for it.

That's quite understandable, but there are also many folks who do like them=
 for a number of reasons.  They are cheap, they are in color, they can be=
 easily searched, you can print all or parts of the book, etc. It is a=
 viable market for us.

PDFs offer us a way to get product into the market faster and with a LOT=
 less overhead. This lets us do things we couldn't normally do if we were=
 producing a traditional printed product. Like for example supporting the=
 old Traveller rules systems, or doing a free Traveller magazine. To not=
 take this step and fill a segment of the market we know is there would be=
 a bad move.

Now if these PDF lines grow enough in popularity, we can then look at=
 offering both a print and a PDF version for every issue.

Note that this doesn't mean we don't have regular printed products planned,=
 we do. The PDFs just fill in the gaps between them so to speak.

Hunter 
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:00:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri May  3 16:00:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <3CD315D2.4F19256D@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 18:12:51 -0400
> From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>

<snip>

> I do have an ad running over at ENWorld currently to test the waters,
> though that is almost exclusively a d20 site.

Makes sense to me. If you have a D20 product you should advertise it
to a D20 audience. I mean that's the whole point of D20 right?

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May  3 16:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503153711.00b90ec0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <B8F8657A.598F4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 12:48 PM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:

> 
> To quote from TA#1:
> "...the foil has a slender blade about a meter long, designed for thrusting
> but capable of making a slashing attack with the edge."
> "Seen by many users as too light for real combat use, the foil is opten
> carried as a fashion item or a part of dress clothing, especially by nobles."
> 
> "The Navy Foil has a slightly heavier blade, which is curved in the manner
> of a cutalss."
> "The Navy Foil is only slightly more robust than a conventional foil..."

Well, that's obviously a poor choice of words.  What is described is not a
foil.  A foil, by definition is a light bladed weapon that is used for
thrusting only.  Calling the weapon described above a foil is like calling
an SMG a 'shotgun that fires a smaller brass containing only one pellet.
The barrel is rifled and each pull of the trigger fires multiple rounds
sequentially'.

The terms foil, epee, cutlass, katana, saber and smallsword all describe
very specific weapons.  It seems to me that the author of TA#1 knows little
or nothing about edged weapons.
> 
> As opposed to Swords:
> "Examples include the standard "sword" purchased as a self-defense weapon
> by many Travellers, katana-type weapons favored by martial arts students
> and the "dress sword" worn by officers and other ranks of the Imperial
> Army..."
> "The sword...[is] a weapon to take seriously."

See above.  Sword is a general term (I'm sure you know this Mark.  I'm
wondering about the author of TA#1).  A foil, epee, katana and cutlass are
all swords.  This is not esoterica.  Even the most cursory search on the web
will reveal this.
> 
> There is also mention of the "foil" being easy to bend if you parry wrong.
> 
>> The small sword became common about 1600 and remained in use until the early
>> to  mid 19th century. It survives today as the court sword or dress sword.
> 
> It sounds like what CT & T20 call a 'foil' is more like your example of a
> smallsword.
> You would still get a range of quality.  If a Noble picks his sword because
> the jewel in the hilt matches his cape, it a decoration.
> If there is a sweat stained pair of fencing gloves tucked in the belt next
> to a plain, worn hilt and scratched bell guard...be polite.

Absolutely, and even the guard will tell you nothing.  It's the blade.  Just
because someone has an ornately jeweled and gilded hilt on his smallsword
doesn't mean there isn't a yard of finely tempered Solingen steel
underneath.  Never make assumption based on appearance.

Let say I'm a noble with a taste for swordplay.  I do my practicing at home
or my Salle des Armes.  There I have a dozen weapon that show the nicks and
dings of heavy use, and they have merely utilitarian grips.  But when I
venture out in public, a certain appearance must be maintained.  My gloves
are clean supple doeskin, and the hilt of my weapon befits my station.
Assume that I am a 'toff' and you may find your chest has sprouted steel.
Doubtless, I will be much distressed by any damage you may have done to my
number one walking out sword.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May  3 16:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
In-Reply-To: <20020504085837.A6648@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020467255.8505.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> But then you have to worry about what happens to that emitted energy,
> and *it's* long-range health effects.  In the case of weapons it's
> pretty obvious :), but what happens to the power that goes into
> thruster plates, for example?

It vanishes into a mysterious conservation of energy black hole?

> Yes; a seriously difficult thing with which to dock without vaporising
> the more temperature-sensitive parts of your hull, one would imagine.
> Again, keeping the radiators pointed in the right direction would be a
> major part of routine piloting.

Of course, even a small ship in most versions of Traveller is likely to spit
out 100+ megawatts, which isn't exactly safe (equivalent to sunlight at 150
meters).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May  3 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <m3k7qlym29.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B8F86728.598F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 2:10 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:


> I think it more likely that most nobles would carry a smallsword, and
> the ones who are from worlds with a duelling culture may prefer a
> rapier.  There are argument for both sides.

I'll add this to the discussion.  Anyone who has worn both a rapier and a
smallsword for any length of time will tell you why the smallsword is
preferable.  It doesn't get in the way as much.

It's also lighter and faster, but lacks the reach of the rapier.
Personally, I've always like the Colischmarche, but it is an odd looking
weapon an lack for much in the esthetics department.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May  3 16:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <001701c1f2e8$f53db140$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8F8687C.598FB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 2:24 PM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

> 
> Yes. A Traveller foil = a smallsword but with an edge.
> 

Please note.  Many examples of smallswords did have edges.  The edge died
out because it really wasn't effective.  A thrust if far more likely to
produce a killing wound than a cut, particularly given that after a few
passes whatever edge your blade had will be reduced to nothing.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May  3 16:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <B8F8657A.598F4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020467931.8394.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> The terms foil, epee, cutlass, katana, saber and smallsword all describe
> very specific weapons.  It seems to me that the author of TA#1 knows little
> or nothing about edged weapons.

It could also indicate that it's retaining some compatibility with some
previous version of Traveller in which 'foil' referred to something odd
(someone had no clue about bladed weapons, but it may not have been the author
of TA#1).

Still, I don't see any real point to continuing the confusion; just rename the
weapon to a smallsword.  For that matter, I suspect the naval weapon is really
supposed to be a saber, not a cutlass.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Fri May  3 16:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <200205031817.AA91160896@caddocourt.com>

>It being late in the day, I ponder....
>
>We've just released the first official CT product in *HOW MANY???* years. To
>zero response. ...
>
>So; if only as a way of increasing the Signal-to-Sears ratio, how about a
>debate topic: The Future of CT - do you want QLI to support the CT line, or
>should we not bother wasting our efforts?

Martin,

At the risk of replying without reading any of the other replies yet, (wow! there are quite a few), here are my thoughts:

I personally have not mentioned TA1 much as I am not interested in guns (at least right now).  I am more interested in your ship series, and any background material you will do.  Therefore I have not responded as this particular issue doesn't interest me.  That doesn't mean I don't want to see any CT material.  I do.

I will be brutally honest here:  I will probably never play or buy anything that is pure T20.  I am not a completist; I don't need to have everything.  I do like CT and continue to collect stuff related to CT and related to Traveller history (in-game history).  (I continue to impatiently wait for the CT Reprint series to continue on.)

Here is one thing I would like to see: before you asked about adventures set in the CT period of the Spinward Marches.  I am not interested in that.  I would be much more interested in adventures set in the Spinward Marches during the T20 period of 1000.  That is area not yet covered that I think would be fun.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May  3 16:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <006601c1f2ea$65779790$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8F86946.598FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 2:34 PM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

> Absolutely. My own foil has a curious dent in the guard. It can't be from a
> parry, so how did it come about?
> 
> It's not obvious from a "fencing" grip.
> 
> But if you take the weapon by the forte, close to the hilt, in your right
> hand, and a little short of the foible with your left, then the dent becomes
> obvious.
> 
> It was caused by impact with an opponent's chin.
> 

I have several dent like this on the guard of my epees.  They are all from
the point of another epee.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May  3 16:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1020467255.8505.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020504085837.A6648@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1020467255.8505.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020504092300.A6756@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Timothy Little writes:
> > [...] but what happens to the power that goes into
> > thruster plates, for example?
> 
> It vanishes into a mysterious conservation of energy black hole?

I guess I was asking for that one. :) Thruster plates aren't exactly
hard science.

I did at one stage do a writeup of the operating priciples of a
neutral tachyon device for my GURPS space game.  The net effect was
basically identical to thruster plates.  That solved the conservation
of energy/momentum problem and I that's now how I see thruster plates
as working.  If anyone ever built a tachyon *detector* though, you
could end up with rather severe causality problems.

I could attempt to massage it into ASCII form and post it, if anyone
is interested.


> Of course, even a small ship in most versions of Traveller is likely
> to spit out 100+ megawatts, which isn't exactly safe (equivalent to
> sunlight at 150 meters).

True.  None of them really fit my image of Traveller starships though.
I don't really see bulk freighters as being dazzlingly bright
star-like objects that can light up the night side of a planet.  Like
the treetop-buzzing dreadnaught, it just somehow doesn't fit.  I think
I'd prefer the heat to be handwaved away than radiated at 6000+ K.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May  3 16:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <00c301c1f2eb$d6cd4e20$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8F86AFA.59900%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 2:44 PM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

>> 
>> I happen to like the idea of duelling as a means of settling
>> social hash.  I would think that it tends to silence the
>> meager of mind early in life.
>> 
> 
> I think it places much in perspective: "is this worth a duel? No? then let's
> forget it and agree to disagree" rather than the petty sniping that can
> sometimes go on.

Unless you have duelists.  Highly skilled practitioners who either enjoy
bumping people off or are in the employ of the powerful as a quasi-legal
means to rid one's self of competition.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May  3 16:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <011701c1f2ec$a5eb27e0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8F86C41.59906%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 2:50 PM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:


So have I.  And it gets in the way when you try to do other things. (Try
running while wearing a sword).  As the sword was deemphisized as a primary
weapon, it became smaller and lighter, or was not worn constantly.  If one
notes period paintings of battles in the 18th and 19th century, the sword is
often seen hanging from the saddle rather than worn at the waist.  It was
more likely to be worn when in town, mostly to impress the ladies.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May  3 16:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1020467931.8394.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8F86E38.5990B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 4:18 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> It could also indicate that it's retaining some compatibility with some
> previous version of Traveller in which 'foil' referred to something odd
> (someone had no clue about bladed weapons, but it may not have been the author
> of TA#1).
> 
> Still, I don't see any real point to continuing the confusion; just rename the
> weapon to a smallsword.  For that matter, I suspect the naval weapon is really
> supposed to be a saber, not a cutlass.

Well, the cutlass was a traditional navy weapon.  The sabre is a cavalry
weapon.  It's curved blade is supposed to facilitate slashes made by a
mounted man.

I see that we need to put Burton's "Book of the Sword" on the recommended
reading list (not directed at you).

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri May  3 16:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns - long
References: <20020503171943.17355.qmail@web13301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CD320D4.6AB122BE@premier.net>


Jeff Hopper wrote:
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: MJ Dougherty [mailto:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]

<<snip>>
> >
> > T20 is designed to bring in a whole bunch of new
> > people to the Traveller
> > genre. All our products have to be T20 compatible,
> > but we can support CT
> > too. This is a grand opportunity to get CT books
> > (yes, books, in print), on
> > the FLGS shelves once again.
> >
> > But I wonder, should we bother? Does anyone care?
> > Other than the six or so
> > people who responded to my posts over the past few
> > days, nobody seems to
> > have reacted to TA#1 etc at all.

<<snip>>
> 
> IMHO, there are two important things to consider.
> 
> 1) ANY product which is an aspect of Traveller should
> support CT for no other reason than that it will reach
> a larger market share than if it were only set for one
> game system. I know of many GMs who hate the GURPS
> system, but who will buy the supplements because they
> are excellent reference works. Making the product
> compatible with and supportible of CT will cause it to
> be desired by a larger number of possible customers.
> That will increase QuickLink Interactive's economic
> viability.

I also suggest that you provide CT support in your printed products,
since most long-term Traveller players have at least some familiarity
with CT and how to use it in whatever flavor of Traveller they play. 
For tech architecture issues relating to other versions of Traveller
(such as the different starship design sequences in MT, TNE, T4 and GT),
you might consider allowing players to submit conversions of any ships,
weapons _et cetera_ to QuikLink.  If the conversions pass muster on your
end, make them available as downloads.  That way, even T4 aficionadoes
(of which I am one) can feel that your firm is supporting them as well.

You might also check with the folks at BITS about using their Task
Difficulty Table as an appendix in T20 products, to help with task
resolution conversions for other rulesets.  Assistance in adding a T20
column to this table may help convince BITS to work with you on this.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:45:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri May  3 16:45:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
Message-ID: <memo.104761@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEFKCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
I can QUOTE chunks of the US Constitution - and I do not even live in that 
country.

I have little time for politians of any colour...

And I don't like swearing on mailing lists (or anywhere else for that 
matter).

Oh, and I'd rather be in the Traveller universe any day :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:46:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri May  3 16:46:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
Message-ID: <memo.104762@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <012f01c1f2ed$278cbbb0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Excellent idea :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri May  3 16:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Forthcoming from SJGames - Not Traveller, but  definitely going to be worth it...
In-Reply-To: <20020503114909.AFCAE279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020503114909.AFCAE279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <vq76du0b0j14ob6a4diejfsfvb96fa1g88@4ax.com>

On Fri, 03 May 2002 04:48:33 -0700, "MJ Dougherty"
<martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

>> >This morning on IRC, I was in the presence of Soon-to-be-Greatness.  The
>> >author of the forthcoming "TransHuman Space: Blue Shadow" was there and
>> >brainstorming, and bouncing ideas off sundry, and some of the ideas that he
>> >had were quite interesting.

>And all we have here on TML is the authors of half the GURPS product line
>and the entire T20 line.

>No wonder nobody takes any notice of us here; not when you can go over to an
>entirely different forum and meet someone who's written an entirely
>different game.

>"A prophet is never without honour, save in his own home country".

Heh.  No, I think that part of it is that we're _used_ to having the
Traveller authors in here, discussing ideas for incorporation into future
Traveller products, and we're _used_ to hearing about them.  The good ideas
are mostly our own, and we discuss them extensively.  The good ideas don't
seem as spectacular when _we_ generate them.

(I seem to remember that after we decided that Loren's presence wasn't
going to be stifling, there was a fair amount of enthusiasm when he first
appeared.  Ditto Marc.)

But when a good idea comes from a previously unknown/unexpected source,
one's enthusiasm tends to get sparked.

(N.B. That's _not_ a signal that you should change your policy on presence
and discussion here!  Getting good product is far more important than
sparking enthusiasm in advance; the product will do that itself!)

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:49:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri May  3 16:49:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <200205031845.FOC03867@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD321D7.78C09475@premier.net>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> MJ Dougherty says
> >A noble's most powerful weapon is his finger...
> >
> >"Captain, shoot that man...."
> 
> "Pot that fellow..."

"The insolent one on the left...."

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri May  3 16:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rimwar, Fifth Frontier War, etc.
References: <200205031947.FOE03464@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD32375.35BD1CC6@premier.net>


"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> I would really like to see a major boardgame (in which you
> could design your fleets, say) so that we could recreate not
> just the major battles, but fight major wars.
> 
> I think that a PBEM sector-spanning war would be really cool,
> with news briefs, etc. posted.  Is there any info on how they
> came up with the counters for Fifth Frontier War?

Try to lay your hands on T4's _Imperial Squadrons_ [*].  One of the more
useful features is a system for building and using squadrons based on
_Fifth Frontier War_.

[*] Note that some other features in _Imperial Squadrons_, such as the
botch they made of the ship designs, would be well-improved by a faith
healer's "laying on of hands." :-P

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 16:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
Message-ID: <20020503.165654.-185223.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hey folks,

A while ago I posted under "meanest tricks pulled on PC's" about a
misjump - game over.

Somebody replied on ways to survive it.

I'm placing a misjump in my project and need to know if the ship can
survive.

First, would someone with a 1d6 please roll out the number for me please?
I don't have a computerized die roller.

Second, could anyone post possible survival methods for an Imperium 400dt
scout surveyor circa 1099, which misjumped, and is now out of jump fuel.

Turokan


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 17:59:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May  3 16:59:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <B8F86E38.5990B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020470306.9067.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> Well, the cutlass was a traditional navy weapon.

True, but the traditional dress weapon tends to be a sabre.  Of course, a
cutlass, since it has a shorter blade, would be less irritating to carry (this
might be made up for by the fact that many cutlasses have bell hilts, however,
which would be very irritating).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 18:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri May  3 17:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
References: <20020503.165654.-185223.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CD3253F.BF3D2110@premier.net>


generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Hey folks,
> 
> A while ago I posted under "meanest tricks pulled on PC's" about a
> misjump - game over.
> 
> Somebody replied on ways to survive it.
> 
> I'm placing a misjump in my project and need to know if the ship can
> survive.
> 
> First, would someone with a 1d6 please roll out the number for me please?
> I don't have a computerized die roller.

I rolled a 6.
> 
> Second, could anyone post possible survival methods for an Imperium 400dt
> scout surveyor circa 1099, which misjumped, and is now out of jump fuel.

Well, if the ship has sufficient Emergency Low Berths to accommodate the
ship's complement, then there should be enough fuel to run the power
plant at low output levels both to permit the ELBs to run for quite a
while and to transmit an automated distress signal.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 18:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri May  3 17:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
References: <20020503214105.6CEB8279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD3273A.912CAC9D@earthlink.net>

Hunter Gordon queried:
> 
> On a similar note, is there much interest in similar support for MT, TNE,=
>  and T4? We have the OK from Marc to support these lines also if we think=
>  there is enough interest from the community.

<head pops up and eyes sparkle>

MT? 

Did you say MT?

<glowing smile>

Oh yeah!

I would, however, like it professionally printed. Something on
the order of BITS 101 series would be most acceptable.


David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 18:12:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri May  3 17:12:52 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
References: <20020503.165654.-185223.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CD3270C.5060507@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> Hey folks,
> 
> A while ago I posted under "meanest tricks pulled on PC's" about a
> misjump - game over.
> 
> Somebody replied on ways to survive it.
> 
> I'm placing a misjump in my project and need to know if the ship can
> survive.
> 
> First, would someone with a 1d6 please roll out the number for me please?
> I don't have a computerized die roller.
> 
> Second, could anyone post possible survival methods for an Imperium 400dt
> scout surveyor circa 1099, which misjumped, and is now out of jump fuel.

Depends on the misjump.

If they are in an empty parsec, either tear up the character sheets, or 
put them in low berths, point the ship toward civilization, and hope 
they hit someplace occupied before the power wears out. Wake the players 
up, make them do a couple of aging rolls to simulate thedamage long-term 
low berths can have, and advance the game clock by a hundred years or two.

They can just refuel if they landed in a system with a GG or water.

They can look for icy bodies in the system.

They can look for hydrates of any sort on planets that _used_ to ave water.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 18:13:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri May  3 17:13:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Press Releases [was: (no subject)]
References: <01f001c1f2f0$c7dd3380$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CD32737.56544E4A@premier.net>


MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> Folks, in case we've missed anything obvious....
> 
> Can anyone suggest a place to post press releases?

Well, SJG's Pyramid has a gaming press release rollup feature....

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 18:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri May  3 17:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <20020503232514.DB997279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD32A8B.4D4C8733@earthlink.net>

Tod Glenn did spake unto us:
> 
> Please note.  Many examples of smallswords did have edges.  The edge died
> out because it really wasn't effective.  A thrust if far more likely to
> produce a killing wound than a cut, particularly given that after a few
> passes whatever edge your blade had will be reduced to nothing.

Not a TL13 one.

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 18:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 17:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
Message-ID: <20020503.172854.-205819.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hey folks,

On Fri, 03 May 2002 19:03:11 -0500 John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
writes:
> 
> generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > First, would someone with a 1d6 please roll out the number for me 
> please? I don't have a computerized die roller.
> 
> I rolled a 6.

Ouch!

Now how about the next rolls

Distance: 6 x 1d6 =

then one final roll for direction.

Would a typical IS Surveyor have enough low berths?

I'll plot the results and see if they make it.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 18:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri May  3 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #469 - 22 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020503164733.26BF0279EF@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020503164733.26BF0279EF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ega6du0hd8it1og3jp2j53baorg8kcahnu@4ax.com>

On Fri, 03 May 2002 09:45:04 -0700, "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> wrote:

>As a true die hard CT person, perhaps I am an example? I looked, I liked, I
>bought a subscription. I spoke with my wallet (well, credit card). Not
>particularly liking "me too" posts, I refrained from posting one. I didn't
>know I was supposed to get mad about something. Actually, I'd tend to be
>more vocal about YAFRS* being published than having a new product for MPV**.
>I'll flame you when t20 is published, okay? Besides, I consider every
>supplement and adventure to be a CT product, cuz dats how I use 'em.

Y'know, I was going to post something approximately the same, but Swordy...
er, Crusty... beat me to it, and better.

MM, MJD, JFZ, LKW, et alia, you just keep on keepin' on.  I put my money
where my mouth is, and I've so far accumulated three... no, nearly four
boxes of Traveller stuff.  One box, when new, holds ten packs of paper,
five hundred sheets per pack.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 18:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Fri May  3 17:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
In-Reply-To: <012f01c1f2ed$278cbbb0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k> from "MJ Dougherty" at May 03, 2002 10:54:21 PM
Message-ID: <200205032327.g43NRek03962@localhost.uia.net>

> We're thinking of putting out (alongside the Traveller's Aide series) a
> quarterly Traveller PDF magazine (probably for free)
> 
> It'd be filled with short contributions (e.g. Amber Zones and Patron
> Encounter type things) contributed by fans. Comments on the concept?
 
Sounds like a good idea. I especially like the idea of it being free.
I personally prefer online magazines which you can download as
individual issues, and PDF seems to be the most common format for
these so far. If anyone is interested, here's a list of some of the
online zines that I've already come across:

Adventurer's Companion (txt, ad&d fanzine)
Apolcalyptic Post (pdf) (gamma world fanzine)
Athene (txt) (fantasy & science fiction)
Bite Mark (pdf) (ironclaw/jadeclaw)
Chaosium Digest (doc/etc) (cthulhu, pendragon, elric, glorantha, etc)
Demonground (pdf) (dark conspiracy & horror rpgs)
Dragon's Hoard (txt/doc) (ad&d fanzine)
Excellent Prismatic Spray (pdf) (dying earth)
Fantasy, Folklore & Fairytales (pdf) (fantasy fiction)
Games & Education (htm) (gaming in the classroom, gama)
Guildsman (pdf) (rpg fanzine, ad&d/traveller)
Imazine (txt/htm/pdf) (rpg fanzine, rpg theory)
Interactive Fiction Now (txt/pdf) (computer gaming)
InterText (txt) (fiction)
Lejends (pdf) (lejendary adventures)
Opifex (pdf) (rpg fanzine)
Quanta (txt) (science fiction)
Revisiting the Three Kingdoms (pdf) (china's han dynasty, jadeclaw)
Shadowrun Supplemental (pdf) (shadowrun)
Sharp End (htm) (rpg fanzine)
SPAG (txt) (interactive fiction)
Wild Talents (pdf) (23rd letter, etc)

If anybody knows of additional ones which I've missed which
can be downloaded, please let me know... -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 18:38:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May  3 17:38:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <3CD32A8B.4D4C8733@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020472618.2754.ajackson@ping>

David Smart writes:
> Tod Glenn did spake unto us:
> > 
> > Please note.  Many examples of smallswords did have edges.  The edge died
> > out because it really wasn't effective.  A thrust if far more likely to
> > produce a killing wound than a cut, particularly given that after a few
> > passes whatever edge your blade had will be reduced to nothing.
> 
> Not a TL13 one.

If it's being used on TL 13 armor and parrying TL 13 weapons, I doubt the edge
will last long (actually, it might last as long as it's incapable of
penetrating TL 13 armor).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Fri May  3 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
References: <20020503.172854.-205819.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CD32DF7.4758C494@premier.net>


generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Hey folks,
> 
> On Fri, 03 May 2002 19:03:11 -0500 John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> writes:
> >
> > generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > First, would someone with a 1d6 please roll out the number for me
> > please? I don't have a computerized die roller.
> >
> > I rolled a 6.
> 
> Ouch!
> 
> Now how about the next rolls
> 
> Distance: 6 x 1d6 =

First roll: 4 (times 6 gives a distance of 24 parsecs)
> 
> then one final roll for direction.

This roll: 1 ("north")
> 
> Would a typical IS Surveyor have enough low berths?

Other than my own (AuricTech) designs, relatively few ships have enough
Emergency Low Berths for the entire ship's complement.

At a 24-parsec distance, I would probably consider any hex within 2
hexes or so to be a viable target.  You can rationalize it as being a
mass that precipitated the ship out of Jumpspace.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri May  3 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Support for MT, TNE, T4
In-Reply-To: <20020503214103.A7D69279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020503214103.A7D69279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <dib6du0j9dtbs2o7atuplbcav0s1ledhli@4ax.com>

On Fri, 03 May 2002 14:39:15 -0700, "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
wrote:

>On a similar note, is there much interest in similar support for MT, TNE,=
> and T4? We have the OK from Marc to support these lines also if we think=
> there is enough interest from the community.

Yes, yes, and yes.  _Any_ Traveller is grist for my mill.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 18:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May  3 17:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1020470306.9067.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8F87DF9.5992E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 4:58 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn writes:
>> 
>> Well, the cutlass was a traditional navy weapon.
> 
> True, but the traditional dress weapon tends to be a sabre.  Of course, a
> cutlass, since it has a shorter blade, would be less irritating to carry (this
> might be made up for by the fact that many cutlasses have bell hilts, however,
> which would be very irritating).

??  What navy is using the saber for a dress weapon?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 18:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May  3 17:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
In-Reply-To: <20020503.165654.-185223.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020503.165654.-185223.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020504105207.A6911@freeman.little-possums.net>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> First, would someone with a 1d6 please roll out the number for me please?

Here's a bunch of computer-generated d6 results -- Take however many
you need, they're free :)

6 3 4 5 1 4 1 3 1 4 3 2 5 6 1 3 1 5 4 5 1 1 3 2 3 5 4 3 2 4 1 1 5 5 6


> Second, could anyone post possible survival methods for an Imperium
> 400dt scout surveyor circa 1099, which misjumped, and is now out of
> jump fuel.

If in an empty hex, get the long-range active sensors looking for
rogue snowballs.  If my understanding of current astronomical theories
is correct there should be a power-law distribution of ejected
cometary bodies in interstellar space, likely a hundred billion
objects more than a kilometre in size per cubic light year.

Now, a good set of Traveller active sensors with a reasonable operator
should be able to spot such a body at a distance of about 20 AU under
GT rules.  Not coincidentally, this is about the same distance that
you would expect to find the nearest such body.  (I picked that size
deliberately) At 1 gee, that's about 2 weeks travel.  You also need to
allow a day or so to perform the scans.

If the sensors (or opertator) are substandard, the crew will have to
travel further to find a more distant but larger body, e.g. 80 AU to
the nearest body 10 km across, or about 400 AU to a body 100 km
across.

The density of such bodies might be higher or lower than I expect,
with correspondingly different travel times for the crew, although the
dependence is weak.  If the density is 10 times lower, the travel time
is only about twice as long (for fixed sensor acuity).

So the crew should have no problem refuelling, it will just take quite
a bit of patience.  As a cruel twist on their situation, though they
travel toward the closest body they can see, there will almost
certainly be thousands or even millions of closer bodies that would be
ample for refuelling, but which are too small for their sensors to
detect.

En-route to the big one, they might even see many suitable objects as
they zip past at a thousand kilometres per second, but it wouldn't be
worth reversing the engines to cut their speed, reaccelerating back
toward it, and reversing their engines halfway again to rendezvous.
:/


If your universe only has HEPlaR or similar engines that are intensive
on reaction mass or fuel, it might take longer to travel the required
few tens of AU, but still not more than months.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 18:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May  3 17:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <B8F87DF9.5992E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020473736.6561.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> ??  What navy is using the saber for a dress weapon?

Hm...USN seems to use a straight blade, but the USMC uses a saber.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 18:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May  3 17:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
In-Reply-To: <3CD3270C.5060507@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020503.165654.-185223.1.generalturokan@juno.com> <3CD3270C.5060507@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020504105759.B6911@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> If they are in an empty parsec, either tear up the character sheets, or 
> put them in low berths, point the ship toward civilization,

"Empty" parsecs almost certainly contain hundreds of billions of
suitable cometary bodies from which to refuel.  They just don't have
stars or planets.  (Well, they might even have quite a few dark
planets.  Planetary ejection looks a lot more likely now that we
suspect gas giant migration in formation of planetary systems about
other stars, and there might be almost as many ejected planets as
bound ones)


> They can look for icy bodies in the system.

... or out of a system.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 19:05:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May  3 18:05:11 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
In-Reply-To: <20020504105759.B6911@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020474250.7096.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> "Empty" parsecs almost certainly contain hundreds of billions of
> suitable cometary bodies from which to refuel.

Of course, finding a comet-sized object that's probably 10-100 AU away, at a
temperature of 3-4K, and illuminated only by starlight might be a challenge.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 19:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 18:06:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
Message-ID: <200205040104.FOO02512@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson asks
>Do you have a cite for that book? I'd like to take a look at 
>it.
>

Let me go through my bathroom collection...
________________
Watching programs run
Endless hours of debugging
Lightning flash outside

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 19:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May  3 18:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1020474250.7096.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020504105759.B6911@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1020474250.7096.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020504110818.A7198@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Of course, finding a comet-sized object that's probably 10-100 AU
> away, at a temperature of 3-4K, and illuminated only by starlight
> might be a challenge.

That's why I explicitly included an analyis of the *active* sensor
rules from GURPS Traveller.  I agree that passive sensors would show
essentially nothing.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 19:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May  3 18:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1020473736.6561.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8F8832A.59939%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 5:55 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn writes:
>> ??  What navy is using the saber for a dress weapon?
> 
> Hm...USN seems to use a straight blade, but the USMC uses a saber.

Shame on you.  That's a Mamaluke or Mamluke sword.  A souvenir from the
'shores of Tripoli'.  The first marine to carry this sword was Marine
Lieutenant Presley N. O'Bannon, a gift, which the rightful ruler of Tripoli
had presented to O'Bannon, to honor his heroism in the battle for Derna.
Marine officers until today have carried swords patterned on the Mamluke
Sword.

Tod

When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 19:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 18:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
Message-ID: <200205040111.FOO02894@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Unless you have duelists.  Highly skilled practitioners who 
>either enjoy bumping people off or are in the employ of the 
>powerful as a quasi-legal means to rid one's self of 
>competition.
>
Well, in your case, you would probably be the purveyor of 
customized duelling pistols, and mark c. would be the 
professional duellist, no?
________________
Watching programs run
Endless hours of debugging
Lightning flash outside

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 19:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 18:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
Message-ID: <200205040117.FOP00103@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

generalturokan@juno.com  says
>Second, could anyone post possible survival methods for an 
>Imperium 400dt scout surveyor circa 1099, which misjumped, 
>and is now out of jump fuel.
>

I dunno.  I use CT/HG, and you have 28 days of powerplant 
fuel.  Let's say that's now 21 days.  We get to accelerate in 
the direction of the nearest star for 21 days.  After that, 
we zip up in the low berths, and hope the batteries don't run 
out.  Oh, and we hope someone sees us zipping through the 
target system, and can accelerate to catch up with us...
________________
Watching programs run
Endless hours of debugging
Lightning flash outside

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 19:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 18:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <200205040129.FOQ00521@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Personally, I've always like the Colischmarche, but it is an 
>odd looking weapon an lack for much in the esthetics 
>department.
>

Having seen an Iai demonstration some years ago, I think that 
the katana is an ideal courtly weapon.  There are a lot of 
interesting things that can be done with the weapon still in 
the scabbard, prior to drawing the weapon (pinning people 
down while you draw, knocking people back, throws, etc).

That, and it's more of a weapon than most one-handed swords.
________________
Watching programs run
Endless hours of debugging
Lightning flash outside

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 19:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May  3 18:32:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <200205040111.FOO02894@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8F88817.5994C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 6:11 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
>> Unless you have duelists.  Highly skilled practitioners who
>> either enjoy bumping people off or are in the employ of the
>> powerful as a quasi-legal means to rid one's self of
>> competition.
>> 
> Well, in your case, you would probably be the purveyor of
> customized duelling pistols, and mark c. would be the
> professional duellist, no?

Well, I can shoot fairly well, and may have more time behind a dueling
pistol than Mark.  I used to have a nice pair of Perdersoli duelers (flint,
to keep it sporting).

I've also been fencing epee since 1976, though I'm not the best by far.  Too
old, fat and short to be really competitive.  And too many other interests.

I'm half romantic and half pragmatic.  The romantic side says fight the duel
for the lady's honor.  The pragmatics side says to hell with her.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 19:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri May  3 18:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
In-Reply-To: <012f01c1f2ed$278cbbb0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEBDDNAA.tml@downport.com>

Good luck getting results on that. I tried getting some feedback on such a
thing over a year ago and still haven't had a response.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MJ Dougherty

>
> We're thinking of putting out (alongside the Traveller's Aide series) a
> quarterly Traveller PDF magazine (probably for free)
>
> It'd be filled with short contributions (e.g. Amber Zones and Patron
> Encounter type things) contributed by fans. Comments on the concept?




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
Message-ID: <198.66b94a7.2a04977b@aol.com>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> writes:

>Well, a lot of components in FFS have vastly inflated power consumption,

Which makes MT truly scary, considering most power consumption numbers 
dropped, often by an order of magnitude or more, from MT to TNE...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 19:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May  3 18:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <001701c1f2e8$f53db140$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503114632.00b817e0@urbin.net>
 <m3pu0dym82.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <001701c1f2e8$f53db140$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <m3heloy91m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>
> Yes. A Traveller foil = a smallsword but with an edge.

You'd not want to do that.  The style of fight with a smallsword is
pure thrust--the edge does nothing but weaken the blade.

I don't like it either--that's why I prefer the rapier.

Besides, does it make sense to use a word meaning `harmless practice
weapon' for `deadly dueling blade'?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
IMHO WinTelnet is one of those situations in which both fish and firearm
are firmly bracketed to the barrel itself, in perfect alignment, and
actually walking up and pulling the trigger starts to fall into the 'Why
Bother?' category.                                               --A deB

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 19:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May  3 18:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <B8F86728.598F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8F86728.598F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3d6wcy8y7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:

>
> Personally, I've always like the Colischmarche, but it is an odd looking
> weapon an lack for much in the esthetics department.

Was ist das?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Upgrading your OS and not needing to upgrade your hardware is a great
feeling.                                             --Patrick Mullen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 19:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 18:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What the Fans wanted
Message-ID: <132.d4b6745.2a049942@aol.com>

>A comment was made elsewhere that 'if only GDW had listened to what the fans
>wanted'.

I'd rather not go through this again, if everyone doesn't mind. If anyone 
insists, please take it to me via e-mail.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 19:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May  3 18:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFFHAAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFFHAAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <m38z70y8vb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> writes:
>
> Of course you do have to consider that amour is a lot more common,
> think space suits, I'd go with a poignard or a similar pig sticker,
> about the same length as a small sword, heavy enough to go through 
> armor, ignore a parry from a lighter weapon, and still light enough 
> to move quickly.

I've seen disc-pattern (forget the technical term) poniards slammed
through dumpsters.  Very good at what they were designed to do.

>  Failing that I'd go with a saber, a real one not one of the 'salle'
> tit-a-li-winks

'Cept that a sabre's more for slicing open arteries--at least in
hand-to-hand combat, at least from what I've been taught.

Of course, the best weapon is a meson gun from orbit:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Security-wise, NT is a server with a 'kick me' sign taped to it.
                                                --Peter Gutmann

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May  3 19:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <3CD309E6.3000802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200205031903.FOC06356@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <m3bsbwzzzr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <3CD309E6.3000802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m34rhoy8kr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>
> Well, as civilized as sanctioned murder can be, that is. It is merely
> yet another example of 'Rule by Bully'...the strong can prey on the
> weak at will.

It's not sanctioned murder; it's two men agreeing to settle their
differences.  Either party can refuse, of course.  It's not as though,
being challenged, one _must_ accept.  One may lose face--but that's
one's own choice.

> It is like any other 'Trial by Combat' method, utterly divorced from
> the truth of the matter, which is what 'drawing those myriad others'
> into disputes is intended to do.

It being Good Friday, I must repeat the ancient question, `What is
truth?'

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cloning forces us to ask some hard questions.  For example,
which person, the original or the clone, gets to wear the
goatee and be evil?                    --Stewart Nicholls

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri May  3 19:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Guerrilla Marketing (was Concerns)
In-Reply-To: <200205031812510960.1E25C09A@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMOEBEDNAA.tml@downport.com>

Might be a bit cheeky, but the banner ads on Pyramid/JTAS weren't too high
last I checked.

I'll second the Usenet motion. Oddly enough, there's still a lot of traffic
on it.

The FREE newsletter/magazine in PDF is a good idea if you can keep up the
quality. Shoot for about four pages and put it out about every third week to
keep interest up. Put in a section on announcements of all new Traveller
products, plus reviews. Give visitors the option of signing up for an e-mail
notification of the FREE issues being published.

SJG is doing a nice job with the TNS e-mail notices. Seems like you could do
a TNS for the T20 milieu.

There are also a number of Yahoo/eGroups Traveller lists that kind of limp
along, but they are worth a try.

Geez, you need a part-time publicist to keep up with all this stuff! Hmm...
any bribes left in the goodie bag? ;)

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
"In conclusion, remember that Traveller
  is a game, and that it goes differently
    for everyone who plays. Bon voyage!"

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Hunter Gordon
>
> I do have an ad running over at ENWorld currently to test the
> waters, though that is almost exclusively a d20 site.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 19:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Anecdote WRT the blade wpn discussions
Message-ID: <106.1179e551.2a049cbc@aol.com>

Bill Keith once told me that during his career as a medico in the Navy he was 
once assigned to a base near Washington that provided personnel for a lot of 
ceremonial functions, which meant lots of the young gentlemen had dress 
swords (by whatever name called) and a common injury was minor cuts resulting 
from inexperienced officers fencing in their copious free time.

Reminds me of watching the neighbor kid in the parking lot out practicing 
cool moves with his buterfly knife . . . flip-flip-flip "OW!" clatter.  . . . 
flip-flip-flip "OW!" clatter.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri May  3 19:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <200205031718100091.1DF3ACCD@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEPIDMAA.tml@downport.com>
 <02b401c1f2bf$60dc4c10$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <p04330103b8f8abb009e5@[143.232.119.186]>
 <200205031718100091.1DF3ACCD@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <p04330104b8f8e91b7ba9@[143.232.119.186]>

At 5:18 PM -0400 5/3/02, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>On 5/3/2002 at 2:06 PM David P. Summers wrote:
>
>>At 5:26 PM +0100 5/3/02, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>>>Actually it's not a lack of flames that worried me, but a lack of any sort
>>>of reaction.
>>
>>My guess is that with CT; people know exactly what one is getting,
>>the content is already decided (you aren't going to change something
>>by voicing an opinion) and nobody expects that CT will puch their own
>>favorite system out of the way.  So nobody really feels the need to
>>flame on it.
>>
>>I would say the silence means that you simply aren't getting info on
>>the demand rather than indicating a lack of demand.
>
>True, but as a small publisher, we need to know what the demand and 
>thoughts are on a product, good or bad. A lack of response leaves us 
>in a black hole so to speak. A comment was made elsewhere that 'if 
>only GDW had listened to what the fans wanted'. Well we are 
>listening! I am a big fan of giving people what they want. It makes 
>for better sales ;) But we have to know what you want first, and 
>then we need to know if you liked or disliked it.

Yeah, I see.

For the record, for me, outside of GT stuff, I am mostly interested 
in adventures and maybe some background stuff I can use with GT.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May  3 19:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Anecdote WRT the blade wpn discussions
Message-ID: <200205040219.FOR00166@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

GDWGAMES@aol.com  says
>Subject: [TML] Anecdote WRT the blade wpn discussions  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>Reminds me of watching the neighbor kid in the parking lot 
>out practicing  cool moves with his buterfly knife . . . 
>flip-flip-flip "OW!" clatter.  . . . 
>flip-flip-flip "OW!" clatter.
>
I bought my first butterfly knife precisely because it opened 
a 10 stitch cut on my hand.  I was trying it out, and 
Hoffritz was marketing a butterfly with the lock on the wrong 
side.  The store clerk begged, "oh, don't sue us.."  I 
wrapped my hand up, and asked "How much for the knife?"  I 
went to the ER afterwards.

People used to wait to hear that I had been killed by my own 
weapon (cut by butterfly knife, unintentional discharge, 
crossbow decocking into my face, explosive weapon 
disassembly, etc). I'm a lot safer now (actually no accidents 
since 1986).

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:26:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May  3 19:26:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFFHAAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <m3g019ylxf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503221732.02069718@192.168.0.1>

At 02:24 PM 5/3/2002 -0700, John-Martin wrote:
>Of course you do have to consider that amour is a lot more common,
>think space suits, I'd go with a poignard or a similar pig sticker,
>about the same length as a small sword, heavy enough to go through
>armor, ignore a parry from a lighter weapon, and still light enough
>to move quickly.  Failing that I'd go with a saber, a real one not one
>of the 'salle' tit-a-li-winks


The, ahm...,point of the matter is that the Noble's 'foil' (smallsword) is 
a 'badge of rank'.
They rarely use the silly thing.  It's more of the before mentioned 
"Captain, kill that man."
Back in the bad old days, Nobles carried Magnum Revolvers instead.
Blam! Blam! "Captain, loot the house, have daughter bound and taken to my 
quarters, and then burn the place to ground."

TA#1, as I pointed (sorry) out before, also lists swords (military sabers, 
katanas, the classic longsword) and the ever popular Marine Cutlass.
Which is described as, "The ideal compromise..."; "...a deadly combinations 
of power, speed, and carriability."

It depends on what you want.  If you want to hack and slash (I prefer gauss 
weapons, but hey, that's just me), you use a cutlass.  If you want to be 
accepted at Court and learn all the nasty gossip (and don't think that 
can't be a powerful weapon), you wear the dainty Noble 'foil'.  Preferably 
one that matches your cape and ascot.

>jml
>yes I do fence

Five years of Saber myself.


>Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> >
> > Some examples of smallswords:
>
>Also <http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item069.html>.  Whereas
>everything else in that section is a rapier.  The smallsword's great
>advantage is speed, while a rapier is more of a cut-and-thrust weapon.
>To be quite honest, much as I prefer rapiers, the smallsword makes a
>lot more sense.  Get in, get out, don't dilly-dally.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Firm footwork is the fount from which springs all
offense and defense." -- Giacomo diGrasse, 1570
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri May  3 19:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Anecdote WRT the blade wpn discussions
In-Reply-To: <106.1179e551.2a049cbc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEBGDNAA.tml@downport.com>

My best friend and gaming partner in high-school was a professional clown
and juggler. He had flaming torches, but I was into things with metal blades
and got him to try my bolo machete and a hatchet. Those two with one flaming
baton... wow, show-stopper. But catching the wrong end of any one of those
made for an interesting trip to the nurse's office (yes, he practiced at
school).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
>
> Reminds me of watching the neighbor kid in the parking lot out practicing
> cool moves with his buterfly knife . . . flip-flip-flip "OW!"
> clatter.  . . .
> flip-flip-flip "OW!" clatter.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May  3 19:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1020461356.5736.ajackson@ping>
References: <001001c1f2e8$ca9150a0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503222623.02b3e008@192.168.0.1>

At 02:29 PM 5/3/2002 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>MJ Dougherty writes:
> > A modern fencing foil does that becuase of the diamond cross-seciton. Make
> > it a little thivker in the "edge" dimension (like a fencing sabre) and it
> > doesn't/ If you look at the illos in TA#1. the Traveller foil isn't a
> > modern fencing foil.
>In which case, why the heck is it called a 'foil'?  If a traveller 'foil' is a
>smallsword, call it a smallsword.

Good Ghu Man!  Do you want the Canon Police to hunt you down!

 From Traveller Book 1 'Characters and Combat', page 37, it is written:

Foil (500 grams; Cr100; TL 3): Also known as the rapier, this weapon is a 
light sword-like weapon with a pointed, edged blade 800mm in length, and a 
basket or cup hilt to protect the hand. Foils are worn in scabbards 
attached to the belt.

It's called a Foil because Marc Miller said it's a foil.  Even through it's 
got a sharp edge.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Almost all of the insights and profundities that constitute my wisdom have
been taken without permission from others. If you suspect that your wisdom
has been stolen to embellish my reputation, first double-check to make sure
that your insights are still around. Very often, notions and ideas are not
stolen at all, but merely 'copied'. If you still feel that you have been
wronged, please contact the author to negotiate a settlement satisfactory to
all involved parties. Ironically, the author does not grant you permission
to use said ideas, regardless of their original source.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:37:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May  3 19:37:07 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Products
In-Reply-To: <20020503215227.607.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503223342.00caafb0@192.168.0.1>

At 02:52 PM 5/3/2002 -0700, Matt Ashley wrote:
>How about different TL versions of items?  Forex most of the CT and GT 
>items have an example at
>the TL of introduction and maybe, just maybe an example at a higher 
>TL.  It would be nice to see
>examples of a TL9/12/15 laser pistol or a TL9 version of the air raft.
>There is a lot of coarse granularity in examples of items and equipment 
>across the TL's and plenty
>of room to fill stuff in.

ahhh...one of the wonderful things about TNE's Fire, Fusion & 
Steel.  Things got better as the TL increased.

This would be a great example of the 'personal gear' list Megan mentioned 
that she wanted to see.

This is a TL 7 man-portable radio.  This is a TL 8 handheld radio with 
built in GPS.
This is a TL A personal comm unit with the HOLO HUD, etc....


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/3584/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:38:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May  3 19:38:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
In-Reply-To: <012f01c1f2ed$278cbbb0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503223649.0209aa48@192.168.0.1>

At 10:54 PM 5/3/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>We're thinking of putting out (alongside the Traveller's Aide series) a
>quarterly Traveller PDF magazine (probably for free)
>It'd be filled with short contributions (e.g. Amber Zones and Patron
>Encounter type things) contributed by fans. Comments on the concept?

Sounds like a great idea to me.

>Martin J Dougherty
>Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
>www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:49:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May  3 19:49:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <B8F8657A.598F4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503153711.00b90ec0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503224258.02a5e328@192.168.0.1>

Please excuse the top post.

Let me just say that Tod & I are in violent agreement here.
The use of the term 'foil' is confusing.  I have a modern fencing foil (and 
a couple of sabers).  They are nothing like the actual swords I have.
The term is used because that is the term used in CT, Book 1, to describe 
an light thrust and slash sword.

Tod is also correct about judging by the cover.  I was using a rule of 
thumb, as well as exaggerating to make a, excuse me, point.

I would still be very careful about a smelly fellow carrying two boken...


At 04:04 PM 5/3/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 5/3/02 12:48 PM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:
>
> >
> > To quote from TA#1:
> > "...the foil has a slender blade about a meter long, designed for thrusting
> > but capable of making a slashing attack with the edge."
> > "Seen by many users as too light for real combat use, the foil is opten
> > carried as a fashion item or a part of dress clothing, especially by 
> nobles."
> >
> > "The Navy Foil has a slightly heavier blade, which is curved in the manner
> > of a cutalss."
> > "The Navy Foil is only slightly more robust than a conventional foil..."
>
>Well, that's obviously a poor choice of words.  What is described is not a
>foil.  A foil, by definition is a light bladed weapon that is used for
>thrusting only.  Calling the weapon described above a foil is like calling
>an SMG a 'shotgun that fires a smaller brass containing only one pellet.
>The barrel is rifled and each pull of the trigger fires multiple rounds
>sequentially'.
>
>The terms foil, epee, cutlass, katana, saber and smallsword all describe
>very specific weapons.  It seems to me that the author of TA#1 knows little
>or nothing about edged weapons.
> >
> > As opposed to Swords:
> > "Examples include the standard "sword" purchased as a self-defense weapon
> > by many Travellers, katana-type weapons favored by martial arts students
> > and the "dress sword" worn by officers and other ranks of the Imperial
> > Army..."
> > "The sword...[is] a weapon to take seriously."
>
>See above.  Sword is a general term (I'm sure you know this Mark.  I'm
>wondering about the author of TA#1).  A foil, epee, katana and cutlass are
>all swords.  This is not esoterica.  Even the most cursory search on the web
>will reveal this.
> >
> > There is also mention of the "foil" being easy to bend if you parry wrong.
> >
> >> The small sword became common about 1600 and remained in use until the 
> early
> >> to  mid 19th century. It survives today as the court sword or dress sword.
> >
> > It sounds like what CT & T20 call a 'foil' is more like your example of a
> > smallsword.
> > You would still get a range of quality.  If a Noble picks his sword because
> > the jewel in the hilt matches his cape, it a decoration.
> > If there is a sweat stained pair of fencing gloves tucked in the belt next
> > to a plain, worn hilt and scratched bell guard...be polite.
>
>Absolutely, and even the guard will tell you nothing.  It's the blade.  Just
>because someone has an ornately jeweled and gilded hilt on his smallsword
>doesn't mean there isn't a yard of finely tempered Solingen steel
>underneath.  Never make assumption based on appearance.
>
>Let say I'm a noble with a taste for swordplay.  I do my practicing at home
>or my Salle des Armes.  There I have a dozen weapon that show the nicks and
>dings of heavy use, and they have merely utilitarian grips.  But when I
>venture out in public, a certain appearance must be maintained.  My gloves
>are clean supple doeskin, and the hilt of my weapon befits my station.
>Assume that I am a 'toff' and you may find your chest has sprouted steel.
>Doubtless, I will be much distressed by any damage you may have done to my
>number one walking out sword.
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Firm footwork is the fount from which springs all
offense and defense." -- Giacomo diGrasse, 1570
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri May  3 19:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
In-Reply-To: <012f01c1f2ed$278cbbb0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CD3F5DB.3821.274891@localhost>

On 3 May 2002, at 22:54, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> We're thinking of putting out (alongside the Traveller's Aide series)
> a quarterly Traveller PDF magazine (probably for free)

> It'd be filled with short contributions (e.g. Amber Zones and Patron
> Encounter type things) contributed by fans. Comments on the concept?

Make it free, aim for 4 to 8 pages, make it either fortnightly or 
monthly, use it to deliver regular news updates (al la SJG's TNS 
releases), use it to drive the metaplot (a good number, though not 
neccessarily a majority, of the Amber Zones, Casual Encounters 
and Patrons should have some tie in with th metaplot).

Oh and send me a submission guideline <g>

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:53:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri May  3 19:53:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
In-Reply-To: <200205031633530281.1DCB22A3@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <200205031620300216.1DBEE1AA@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CD3F5DB.9905.274891@localhost>

On 3 May 2002, at 16:33, Hunter Gordon wrote:

> On a similar note, is there much interest in similar support for MT,
> TNE, and T4? We have the OK from Marc to support these lines also if
> we think there is enough interest from the community.

T4, or to be more precise M:0 would be very appreciated here.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:54:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri May  3 19:54:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <007301c1f2ea$bcc76de0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CD3F5DB.24167.274887@localhost>

On 3 May 2002, at 22:37, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> > Less than one. Unless of course the FFE reprints don't count as CT
> > or oficial. :D

> NEW CT product. Beg pardon.

The last new CT product was the Lost Keith Bros supplements put 
out by Cargonaut a couple of years back :*>

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri May  3 19:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
In-Reply-To: <200205031633530281.1DCB22A3@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20020504025539.9FA7E279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/03/02 at 04:33 PM,  "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> said:


>Thanks to all who voiced their interest in favor of our supporting
>the CT line. That was what we needed to hear! 

>On a similar note, is there much interest in similar support for MT,
>TNE, and T4? We have the OK from Marc to support these lines also if
>we think there is enough interest from the community.

I'm certainly interested, you bet I am! 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 20:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May  3 19:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <B8F86728.598F9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <m3k7qlym29.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503225007.02cae488@192.168.0.1>

At 04:11 PM 5/3/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 5/3/02 2:10 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:
[snip]
>It's also lighter and faster, but lacks the reach of the rapier.
>Personally, I've always like the Colischmarche, but it is an odd looking
>weapon an lack for much in the esthetics department.

I plugged colischmarche in to google and the *only* hit I got back was for 
one of your characters.
<http://www.travellercentral.com/regina/PC/yvette.html>

That is the first time I've ever gotten a *single* hit from Google.
None, sure, but never before, just one.

You made me get up, walk around the table and get my Burton off the shelf!

Invented by Count Konigsmark, a modification of the small sword.
"...a trialamellum very wide and heavy in the 'whole-strong' quarter near 
the hilt, and at about eight inches suddenly passing to a light and slender 
rapier-section."
Invented in 1680, and fell into disuse after the reign of Louis XIV.  The 
stated reason...it wasn't pretty.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 21:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May  3 20:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <B8F86E38.5990B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1020467931.8394.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503225908.02b633d0@192.168.0.1>

At 04:41 PM 5/3/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 5/3/02 4:18 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> > It could also indicate that it's retaining some compatibility with some
> > previous version of Traveller in which 'foil' referred to something odd
> > (someone had no clue about bladed weapons, but it may not have been the 
> author
> > of TA#1).
> > Still, I don't see any real point to continuing the confusion; just 
> rename the
> > weapon to a smallsword.  For that matter, I suspect the naval weapon is 
> really
> > supposed to be a saber, not a cutlass.
>Well, the cutlass was a traditional navy weapon.  The sabre is a cavalry
>weapon.  It's curved blade is supposed to facilitate slashes made by a
>mounted man.

Bah!  I want a 1911 Patton Saber!  "The Point! The Point!"
I think I'm gonna be dropping some real broad hints to my kids this 
Christmas...

>I see that we need to put Burton's "Book of the Sword" on the recommended
>reading list (not directed at you).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 21:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri May  3 20:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
In-Reply-To: <200205032327.g43NRek03962@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020504030154.414C1279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/03/02 at 04:27 PM,  jimv <jimv@uia.net> said:

>If anybody knows of additional ones which I've missed which can be
>downloaded, please let me know... -Jim

The Fudge Factor 
   online ezine dedicated all things Fudge www.fudgefactor.org

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 21:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri May  3 20:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503114632.00b817e0@urbin.net> <m3pu0dym82.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <004e01c1f319$ef420da0$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Concerns


> Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> >
> > Although it doesn't state it, I would put forth that the IN Enlisted
> > Dress Uniform includes a cutlass.  The foil is reserved for
> > Commissioned Officers.
>
> I don't think anyone's going to wear a foil--they are practice
> weapons, and otherwise of very little use.  Now, a smallsword (what a
> foil mimics) would make sense...  Stiff, sharp, triangular blade,
> absolutely deadly.

Well, obviously terminology has changed at some point in the next 3500
years, and what you call a smallsword is what the Impies call a Foil...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 21:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri May  3 20:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
References: <200205031903.FOC06356@vmms1.verisignmail.com><m3bsbwzzzr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><3CD309E6.3000802@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <m34rhoy8kr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <013e01c1f31d$308af9e0$52200050@matt>

> It being Good Friday, I must repeat the ancient question, `What is
> truth?'

Wasn't that a month ago?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 21:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri May  3 20:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <013e01c1f31d$308af9e0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205032039360.21256-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 4 May 2002, Matthew Bond wrote:

> > It being Good Friday, I must repeat the ancient question, `What is
> > truth?'
> 
> Wasn't that a month ago?

Not if you're Orthodox.

Kiri, who grew up in a community with lots of Orthodox folks.
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 21:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri May  3 20:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205032039360.21256-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <019301c1f31f$b9619380$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 4:40 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Hasty words


> On Sat, 4 May 2002, Matthew Bond wrote:
> 
> > > It being Good Friday, I must repeat the ancient question, `What is
> > > truth?'
> > 
> > Wasn't that a month ago?
> 
> Not if you're Orthodox.
> 
> Kiri, who grew up in a community with lots of Orthodox folks.

Orthodox as in Greek or Jewish?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 22:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 21:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
Message-ID: <20020503.210336.-16035.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Thanks guys for responding.

John Groth <wombat@premier.net> writes:
> >  I would probably consider any hex within 2 hexes or so to be a
viable target.  

They jumped into 2 parsecs of an unknown system.

 Timothy Little  writes:
>  If in an empty hex, get the long-range active sensors looking for
rogue snowballs.  
>  So the crew should have no problem refuelling, it will just take 
quite a bit of patience. 

If refueling is "no problem" then why worry about jumping into a system
when on a long trip? Why not maintain a straight course, and refuel as
you say?

> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > If they are in an empty parsec, either tear up the character  sheets,
or   put them in low berths, point the ship toward civilization,

This is my thinking too...

> Timothy Little writes:
> > "Empty" parsecs almost certainly contain hundreds of billions of
> > suitable cometary bodies from which to refuel.

Are there refueling depots out there? Seems like a viable market for
someone wanting to connect a system otherwise unreachable.

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Of course, finding a comet-sized object that's probably 10-100 AU
> > away, at a temperature of 3-4K, and illuminated only by starlight
> > might be a challenge.

Now were looking for top gun personnel in the field of detection.

> Timothy Little writes:
> That's why I explicitly included an analyis of the *active* sensor
> rules from GURPS Traveller.  I agree that passive sensors would show
> essentially nothing.

How about MT rules?

>John T. Kwon"  writes:
>  I dunno.  I use CT/HG, and you have 28 days of powerplant 
> fuel.  Let's say that's now 21 days.  We get to accelerate in 
> the direction of the nearest star for 21 days.  After that, 
> we zip up in the low berths, and hope the batteries don't run 
> out.  

This is how it looks, 21 days to go, not enough ELB's. Must secretly
poison half the crew, Captain goes down with the ship, leave holovid
commending crew, set course - 2 parsec's activate beacon. Signal Mayday,
go to sleep, never wake up, if low tech system - be pulled into gravity
well, burn up on entry ...

Turokan

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 22:10:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May  3 21:10:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <200205040129.FOQ00521@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200205040129.FOQ00521@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3vga4wo4k.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
> 
> Having seen an Iai demonstration some years ago, I think that 
> the katana is an ideal courtly weapon.  There are a lot of 
> interesting things that can be done with the weapon still in 
> the scabbard, prior to drawing the weapon (pinning people 
> down while you draw, knocking people back, throws, etc).

Any of that's possible with Western weapons.  It's just that our
culture tends to be rather more direct.  Arrange a time and place,
draw and get down to brass tacks.

The katana is a very good weapon in Japanese culture, against Japanese
armour, wielded in a Japanese fashion.  The rapier is a very good
weapon in Western culture, against light armour, wielded in a Western
fashion.  The smallsword is a very good weapon in Western culture,
against Western armour, wielded in a Western fashion.  The broadsword
(yes, the term is over-used and insufficiently precise) is a very good
weapon in Western culture, against Western armour, wielded in a
Western fashion.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly.
It just happens to be selective about whom it makes friends with.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 22:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May  3 21:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
Message-ID: <200205040414.VAA23559@ping.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> Of course, finding a comet-sized object that's probably 10-100 AU
>> away, at a temperature of 3-4K, and illuminated only by starlight
>> might be a challenge.
>
>That's why I explicitly included an analyis of the *active* sensor
>rules from GURPS Traveller.  I agree that passive sensors would show
>essentially nothing.

The sensor rules in GURPS are notably broken, though in different ways
depending on the sensor type and size; in the case of active sensors,
signal strength is proportional to the -4th power of range, making radar
pretty poorly suited to detecting anything at multi-AU ranges (unless you
know where it is; radar benefits much more than optical sensors from the
ability to pick a known target).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 22:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 21:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
Message-ID: <20020503.212005.-16035.1.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sat, 4 May 2002 04:38:43 +0100 "Matthew Bond" <mattgbond@ntlworld.com>
writes:
> > It being Good Friday, I must repeat the ancient question, `What is
> > truth?'
> 
> Wasn't that a month ago?

John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Only because you asked ...

Chaplain Bari


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 22:44:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri May  3 21:44:07 2002
Subject: [TML] THUDD ideas - Exploration Cruiser
In-Reply-To: <08c001c1f2a8$80798680$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEJBEFAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Budget is likely a problem unless someone is prepared to set a different one
for each rule set used as prices very enormously from Traveller incarnation
to incarnation.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Christopher Pratt
Sent: Friday, 3 May 2002 9:43 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] THUDD ideas - Exploration Cruiser


> If we're super serious about getting THUDD rolling again [assuming HG2
> stuff is welcome] I can probably get the full design sheet typed in a
> week or so, depending on how busy things get.
>

I suggest using GT, buts that just because I have the books for it.  Also I
suggest budget should be part of the contest, i.e. you have x MCr to to
build a ship, with bonus point for coming in under budget


later
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 22:45:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri May  3 21:45:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503223649.0209aa48@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEJBEFAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Count me in, sounds like a great idea. The hardpart will be translating the
enthusiasm into action. RPGers as a whole seem to be very lethargic (with
some exceptions) to actually getting around to do things like this.

I have in the pipeline a number of adventure ides based both around my
landgrab worlds and my PE game in the Banners sector. An outline of one is
on my site in the landgrab section (the planet Stave), would this be the
sort of Amber Zone outline you want or would you want more detail.

The site is at www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
Sent: Saturday, 4 May 2002 10:37 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing


At 10:54 PM 5/3/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>We're thinking of putting out (alongside the Traveller's Aide series) a
>quarterly Traveller PDF magazine (probably for free)
>It'd be filled with short contributions (e.g. Amber Zones and Patron
>Encounter type things) contributed by fans. Comments on the concept?

Sounds like a great idea to me.

>Martin J Dougherty
>Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
>Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
>www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 22:46:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri May  3 21:46:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
In-Reply-To: <200205031633530281.1DCB22A3@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEJBEFAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Well I for one would support any TNE material (never much liked T4). I'd
even have a go at writing so if you need me, here I am.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Hunter Gordon
Sent: Saturday, 4 May 2002 4:34 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4



Thanks to all who voiced their interest in favor of our supporting the CT
line. That was what we needed to hear!

On a similar note, is there much interest in similar support for MT, TNE,
and T4? We have the OK from Marc to support these lines also if we think
there is enough interest from the community.

As with the CT material, we'll need outside help in the form of writers,
etc. We aren't quite big enough to handle all the development 'in-house' at
the moment. ;)

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 22:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri May  3 21:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <20020503.212005.-16035.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEBJDNAA.tml@downport.com>

You are welcome IMTU, where all naval vessels with more than 150 crewmen
have their own chaplain :)

-Swordy (who is still trying to decide where to put the chapel on his AHL
deck plans)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
>
> John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
> no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
>
>
> Only because you asked ...
>
> Chaplain Bari



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May  3 23:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Fri May  3 22:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <3CD3F5DB.24167.274887@localhost>
Message-ID: <000001c1f588$ff977d40$6401a8c0@GOCA>

Is Marc ever going to make PDF versions of CT Books available for sale?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
Moffatt-Vallance
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 19:53
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Concerns

On 3 May 2002, at 22:37, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> > Less than one. Unless of course the FFE reprints don't count as CT
> > or oficial. :D

> NEW CT product. Beg pardon.

The last new CT product was the Lost Keith Bros supplements put 
out by Cargonaut a couple of years back :*>

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"
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TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 00:30:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 23:30:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
Message-ID: <20020503.232759.-16035.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Sat, 4 May 2002 00:47:09 -0400 "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> writes:
> You are welcome IMTU, where all naval vessels with more than 150 
> crewmen have their own chaplain :)

Thank you kind sir.
 
> -Swordy (who is still trying to decide where to put the chapel on 
> his AHL deck plans)

Close enough to a galley, but just far enough away that the fragrance
doesn't waft into the chapel.
My office and quarters attached but separate.

Chaplain Bari

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 00:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May  3 23:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
In-Reply-To: <20020504005705.5F96E279D8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E173tPz-00032u-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Hunter Gordon queried:
> > 
> > On a similar note, is there much interest in similar support for MT,
> > TNE,=
> >  and T4? We have the OK from Marc to support these lines also if we
> >  think= there is enough interest from the community.
> 
> <head pops up and eyes sparkle>
> 
> MT? 
> 
> Did you say MT?
> 
> <glowing smile>
> 
> Oh yeah!

I second the motion.  GT is good, but CT and (especially) MT are 
where my heart is.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 01:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat May  4 00:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <m3d6wcy8y7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B8F8D9A5.59998%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 6:53 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
>> 
>> Personally, I've always like the Colischmarche, but it is an odd looking
>> weapon an lack for much in the esthetics department.
> 
> Was ist das?


A weapon that enjoyed a very brief flowering about the time the smallsword
was introduced.  Much like the smallsword in size, it has a much broader
forte suitable for parrying the heavier swords that were on their way out
but with a thin rapier-like foible making it light and quick.  The half
wide, half narrow blade looks too weird for many people.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 01:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat May  4 00:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
In-Reply-To: <20020503.210336.-16035.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020503.210336.-16035.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020504172237.A7951@freeman.little-possums.net>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> If refueling is "no problem" then why worry about jumping into a
> system when on a long trip? Why not maintain a straight course, and
> refuel as you say?

Because it adds an extra few weeks to your trip, plus or minus a
couple of weeks.  Then there is the chance that your sensors might not
be operation at peak efficiency, or there might be a lack of icy
bodies nearby due to random fluctuations, or your maneuver drive might
not like being run for 2 weeks constantly, or ... etc

It's sort of the same answer as why people pay bus fares when they
could hitch-hike.  Hitch-hiking is often slow and potentially
dangerous, but if you've got no other option it will probably get you
to where you're going.


> Are there refueling depots out there? Seems like a viable market for
> someone wanting to connect a system otherwise unreachable.

I'd strongly expect so.  IMTU I have pirate bases operating off such
bodies in deep space, in occupied or empty hexes (it makes little
difference which).


> How about MT rules?

Unfortunately I don't own MT, so I can't comment.  Does it even have
rules covering this type of sensor operation?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 01:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat May  4 00:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <019301c1f31f$b9619380$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <B8F8DB47.5999B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 8:56 PM, Matthew Bond at mattgbond@ntlworld.com wrote:

>>> Wasn't that a month ago?
>> 
>> Not if you're Orthodox.
>> 
>> Kiri, who grew up in a community with lots of Orthodox folks.
> 
> Orthodox as in Greek or Jewish?

Certainly Eastern Orthodox, since the last time I checked, Jews don't
celebrate Easter, it being a Christian holiday.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 01:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat May  4 00:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <m3vga4wo4k.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B8F8DBC1.5999C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 9:08 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> Any of that's possible with Western weapons.  It's just that our
> culture tends to be rather more direct.  Arrange a time and place,
> draw and get down to brass tacks.
> 
> The katana is a very good weapon in Japanese culture, against Japanese
> armour, wielded in a Japanese fashion.  The rapier is a very good
> weapon in Western culture, against light armour, wielded in a Western
> fashion.  The smallsword is a very good weapon in Western culture,
> against Western armour, wielded in a Western fashion.  The broadsword
> (yes, the term is over-used and insufficiently precise) is a very good
> weapon in Western culture, against Western armour, wielded in a
> Western fashion.

Absolutely true.  It should be noted that the Japanese never used the full
thrust, and attack at the very center of the foil, epee, rapier and other
western weapons.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 01:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat May  4 00:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
In-Reply-To: <200205040414.VAA23559@ping.iii.com>
References: <200205040414.VAA23559@ping.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020504173948.B7951@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> The sensor rules in GURPS are notably broken, though in different ways
> depending on the sensor type and size; in the case of active sensors,
> signal strength is proportional to the -4th power of range,

I just put this into the same category as meson guns, jump drives,
reactionless thrusters, contragravity, artificial grav plates,
free-space holograms, multi-terawatt ship power plants and radiators,
p-p fusion reactors, particle weapons that can focus at light-second
ranges, power cells storing 120 MJ/kg, a grab-bag of assorted psi
powers, nuclear dampers, black globes, Virus, portable guns that fire
plasma undergoing significant fusion, and all the other paraphernalia
associated with a space opera game.

Clearly, in GURPS Traveller, active sensors *have* bypassed the
4th-power law.  I can even think of a few semi-plausible methods for
doing so.  That is to say, no less plausible than any of the items
above.

But yes, in a strictly realistic game it would take longer to conduct
such a search in deep space.  You would still find such bodies, but it
would take longer to do so and require a more methodical search.

Of course, in a strictly realistic game you wouldn't be out there in
the first place :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 01:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat May  4 00:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503225007.02cae488@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <B8F8DF0A.599A4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/3/02 7:57 PM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:

> I plugged colischmarche in to google and the *only* hit I got back was for
> one of your characters.
> <http://www.travellercentral.com/regina/PC/yvette.html>
> 
> That is the first time I've ever gotten a *single* hit from Google.
> None, sure, but never before, just one.
> 
> You made me get up, walk around the table and get my Burton off the shelf!
> 
> Invented by Count Konigsmark, a modification of the small sword.
> "...a trialamellum very wide and heavy in the 'whole-strong' quarter near
> the hilt, and at about eight inches suddenly passing to a light and slender
> rapier-section."
> Invented in 1680, and fell into disuse after the reign of Louis XIV.  The
> stated reason...it wasn't pretty.

It helps if I spell it correctly.  It should be colichemarde.  Sorry.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 01:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat May  4 00:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colichemarde
Message-ID: <B8F8E17A.599A6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

As noted, I helps if I spell correctly.

An example:

http://www.gggodwin.com/smlswd.jpg

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 02:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat May  4 01:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Nobles and the Colichemarde
Message-ID: <B8F8E33B.599A8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Another quote which suggest the Colichemarde as the idea nobles weapon.

"When it debuted in the late 17th century, the colichemarde instantaneously
revolutionized the way in which hand-to-hand combat was waged. Its light yet
strong and dramatically tapered blade made moves once physically im,possible
a sudden reality.

Bolstered by a sweeping endorsement from Louis XIV, who cottoned to its
liberating effect on his rather suspect swordplay, it soon became the most
sought after blade in Western Europe.

A highly technical and time-consuming blade to craft, its cost was
exorbitant. As such, the colichemarde was elite property reserved primarily
for royalty and the well to do."
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 02:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat May  4 01:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colichemarde
In-Reply-To: <B8F8E17A.599A6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020504080620.58F3E279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/04/02 at 12:53 AM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>As noted, I helps if I spell correctly.

>An example:

>http://www.gggodwin.com/smlswd.jpg

I can see why it was considered "unattractive." <g>

So, what would you call a sword that maintained the width near the
hilt od the colichemarde all the way down to the point?

Eris,
  not a sword guy
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 02:07:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matt Ashley)
Date: Sat May  4 01:07:45 2002
Subject: [TML] USN Dress Swords
Message-ID: <20020504080652.1842.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com>

Tod Glenn writes:
> ??  What navy is using the saber for a dress weapon?

Hm...USN seems to use a straight blade, but the USMC uses a saber.


I have a USN dress sword, I pulled it out of the attic for the first time since my wedding.  It is
straight.  As I remember my friend in the USMC had more of a curved saber...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 02:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat May  4 01:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503223649.0209aa48@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503223649.0209aa48@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <p04330102b8f949e6adf5@[198.123.22.164]>

At 10:37 PM -0400 5/3/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
>At 10:54 PM 5/3/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>>We're thinking of putting out (alongside the Traveller's Aide series) a
>>quarterly Traveller PDF magazine (probably for free)
>>It'd be filled with short contributions (e.g. Amber Zones and Patron
>>Encounter type things) contributed by fans. Comments on the concept?
>
>Sounds like a great idea to me.

Is there enough interest and material to support a second Traveller 
magazine?  JTAS went down to biweekly recently....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 02:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat May  4 01:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colichemarde
In-Reply-To: <20020504080620.58F3E279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8F8EF05.599AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/4/02 1:06 AM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

> 
>> http://www.gggodwin.com/smlswd.jpg
> 
> I can see why it was considered "unattractive." <g>

This was the most extreme example I could find.  Others are not so horrible.
See http://www.adarastore.com/highlander/images/793lg.jpg

These are colichemardes made for fans of the 'Highlander' series but embody
the basic idea of this weapon in a more esthetic fashion
> 
> So, what would you call a sword that maintained the width near the
> hilt of the colichemarde all the way down to the point?
> 

Most would call that a rapier.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 03:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat May  4 02:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Anecdote WRT the blade wpn discussions
Message-ID: <memo.111008@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <106.1179e551.2a049cbc@aol.com>
Here in Crewe, Cheshire, civic parades are normally led by a Naval 
lieutenant (who commands the Naval cadets). He has absolutely no idea what 
to do with a sword. A few years ago, I circulated all military officers 
offering a session of sword drill in the lead up to the annual parade. 
Needless to say, he was the only one who didn't bother to turn up!

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 03:10:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat May  4 02:10:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
Message-ID: <memo.111010@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503225908.02b633d0@192.168.0.1>
When it comes to a blade, give me my kukri any time :-)

[fx: smiles at same beside me...]

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 03:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 02:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503153711.00b90ec0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020503224258.02a5e328@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000501c1f34d$3bbd2f10$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> >The terms foil, epee, cutlass, katana, saber and smallsword all describe
> >very specific weapons.  It seems to me that the author of TA#1 knows
little
> >or nothing about edged weapons.

Hah. I sent one of my fencing students to the Commonwealth Games. I know
about swords.

But: Rather than (as I was tempted to do) writing pages and pages about the
differences between a Pallasch and a Sabre, the many patterns of sabre (you
can keep your 1911 'Patton', I want the British 1908 pattern), the
shashka/sabre/scimitar/tulwar etc family, smallswords vs court swords vs
estocs etc etc etc, I made 2 choices.

1: Stick with Traveller canon and call what Traveller calls a foil, a foil.
2. Classic Traveller only lists "Foil" "Cutlass" "sword" and "broadsword".
The "sword" definition would have to cover any cutting sword, bigger than a
foil, not like a cutlass, that wasn't an enormous 2-hander.

So, I decided that instead of publishing a million minute variants on
"sword" and endless pages to cover them, I glossed over it all and took the
Traveller "sword" to be a any midsized personal defence hilt weapon, while
mentioning that various types exist so that peopple cwho care can specify a
design. I'd already added more detail than was strictly necessary by
creating Navy Foils, and by mentioning various different types of sword in
the "catalogue" section.

I actually committed that sin of writers; I started to write quite a lengthy
article just to show how much I know. But I cut it because it's not what the
supplement is about.

In the end, TA1 isn't a book about swords. I could write one, but that
wasn't the point. Swords were a small fraction of a much marger picture.

> > >
> > > As opposed to Swords:
> > > "Examples include the standard "sword" purchased as a self-defense
weapon
> > > by many Travellers, katana-type weapons favored by martial arts
students
> > > and the "dress sword" worn by officers and other ranks of the Imperial
> > > Army..."
> > > "The sword...[is] a weapon to take seriously."
> >
> >See above.  Sword is a general term (I'm sure you know this Mark.  I'm
> >wondering about the author of TA#1).  A foil, epee, katana and cutlass
are
> >all swords.  This is not esoterica.  Even the most cursory search on the
web
> >will reveal this.

Really. "Sword" is a term used in Traveller for midsized hilt weapons. I
expanded the term slightly but stuck with the canon reference rather than
suddenly changing the names of weapons that had been in use for 25 years.
Damage works out about the same, so it'd be hairsplitting to bother with
several pages on different types of sword (though the armor performance of
the different types might be different enough to worry about, if you really
cared)

I suppose I could have included rules for he relative benefit of different
weapons. Forex, of the many weapons called "sabres", there were some large
differences.

At Austerlitz, French Cuirassiers (armed with straight sabres) got into a
close fight with Austrian light horse. The straight sabre was designed for
the charging thrust and was devilish effective at that, but it was awkward
in a close fight and specifically it was difficult to parry with. The
cuirassiers were resuced by lighter cavalry - I think dragoons - armed with
sabres too. But these were lighter slashing weapons that were more handy in
a close fight. Of course, Dragoon sabres, while curved, were still heavier
than the Light Cavalry sabre in use in the same army at the time.

Now, meanwhile, the British heavy horse used a weapon (a "sabre") modelled
on the Austrian Pallasch. A heavy, hatchet-ended thing, it was almost
impossible to parry with and not that effective on a chopping stroke (it
could not thrust). The addition of a thinkened hatchet end made it powerful
on the downward swing, but so clumsy that many were ground down to create a
useable point - I've seen one.

British Light Cavalry were armed with Sabres too, mainly the 1796 Pattern
Light Cavalry sabre. This was one of the finest swords of all time; it was
curved and designed for close-in slashing melees.

All of these weapons are sabres. I haven't even touched on the weapons of
other nations, on minor variations in blade length and hilt type.

Now, Sabre is a subset of Sword.

Can you see why I chose to use the blanket definition of "sword?" Would
anyone want a book of weapons that all worked more or less the same in terms
of mechanics, but needed pages and pages of desription to distinguish them
form one another?

Regards, MJD
Fencing instructor of 15 years' experience, military historian... and author
or TA#1.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 03:23:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 02:23:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503223649.0209aa48@192.168.0.1> <p04330102b8f949e6adf5@[198.123.22.164]>
Message-ID: <000601c1f34d$41b58110$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> At 10:37 PM -0400 5/3/02, Mark Urbin wrote:
> >At 10:54 PM 5/3/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> >>We're thinking of putting out (alongside the Traveller's Aide series) a
> >>quarterly Traveller PDF magazine (probably for free)
> >>It'd be filled with short contributions (e.g. Amber Zones and Patron
> >>Encounter type things) contributed by fans. Comments on the concept?
> >
> >Sounds like a great idea to me.
> 
> Is there enough interest and material to support a second Traveller 
> magazine?  JTAS went down to biweekly recently....
>

This is why it'd be quarterly.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 03:24:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 02:24:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <001001c1f2e8$ca9150a0$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <5.1.0.14.0.20020503222623.02b3e008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000701c1f34d$42875000$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> It's called a Foil because Marc Miller said it's a foil.  Even through
it's
> got a sharp edge.


Yup, that's about it. And swords are swords for the same reason.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 03:25:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 02:25:45 2002
Subject: [TML] What the Fans wanted
References: <132.d4b6745.2a049942@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000801c1f34d$433c6f30$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>



> >A comment was made elsewhere that 'if only GDW had listened to what the
fans
> >wanted'.
>
> I'd rather not go through this again, if everyone doesn't mind. If anyone
> insists, please take it to me via e-mail.
>

That wasn't an attempt to muckrake.... just a comment that people have in
the past said things like that, and QLI wants to make it clear that we're
listening.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 03:26:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 02:26:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503114632.00b817e0@urbin.net><m3pu0dym82.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><001701c1f2e8$f53db140$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <m3heloy91m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <000901c1f34d$43f8e160$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> > Yes. A Traveller foil = a smallsword but with an edge.
>
> You'd not want to do that.  The style of fight with a smallsword is
> pure thrust--the edge does nothing but weaken the blade.
>
> I don't like it either--that's why I prefer the rapier.

Of which of the many, many designs, just out of interest? Some are simply
smallswords with an edge. Some are light broadswords. Some are very odd,
like those German and Itlaian -handed thrusting-only rapiers for people who
really wanted a pike.

>
> Besides, does it make sense to use a word meaning `harmless practice
> weapon' for `deadly dueling blade'?
>

Words drift in their meaning. By the C57, the term had changed, I suppose.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 03:27:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 02:27:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #469 - 22 msgs
References: <20020503164733.26BF0279EF@mail.travellercentral.com> <ega6du0hd8it1og3jp2j53baorg8kcahnu@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1f34d$44c38460$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> MM, MJD, JFZ, LKW, et alia, you just keep on keepin' on.  I put my money
> where my mouth is, and I've so far accumulated three... no, nearly four
> boxes of Traveller stuff.  One box, when new, holds ten packs of paper,
> five hundred sheets per pack.

It must be very uncomfortable with all that in your mouth.... How about
clearing some space in the attic?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 03:28:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 02:28:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Forthcoming from SJGames - Not Traveller, but  definitely going to be worth it...
References: <20020503114909.AFCAE279D7@mail.travellercentral.com> <vq76du0b0j14ob6a4diejfsfvb96fa1g88@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c1f34d$4584b180$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> >"A prophet is never without honour, save in his own home country".
>
> Heh.  No, I think that part of it is that we're _used_ to having the
> Traveller authors in here, discussing ideas for incorporation into future
> Traveller products, and we're _used_ to hearing about them.  The good
ideas
> are mostly our own, and we discuss them extensively.  The good ideas don't
> seem as spectacular when _we_ generate them.
>
> (I seem to remember that after we decided that Loren's presence wasn't
> going to be stifling, there was a fair amount of enthusiasm when he first
> appeared.  Ditto Marc.)
>
> But when a good idea comes from a previously unknown/unexpected source,
> one's enthusiasm tends to get sparked.
>
> (N.B. That's _not_ a signal that you should change your policy on presence
> and discussion here!  Getting good product is far more important than
> sparking enthusiasm in advance; the product will do that itself!)
>

Humph. Okay then.

It's easy not to get excited about things you've lived around for years.
Other people say, "You fence? You write? Cool!". And I think how exciting
their lives must be, with all that caving and scuba diving.... the familiar
becomes mundane, I guess....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 03:29:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 02:29:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <B8F86946.598FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c1f34d$46a05ab0$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> I have several dent like this on the guard of my epees.  They are all from
> the point of another epee.

I hit another epiist's guard as he tried to stop-hit me, so hard that my
point tore and stretched the guard - the metal was white where it'd
stretched, and we were a fraction from breaking through (the inside had
begun to tear). I'd have got a valid point on his hand for that, the guard
being insulated, but I'm rather glad it held....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 03:30:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 02:30:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <200205031817.AA91160896@caddocourt.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c1f34d$475a5be0$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> At the risk of replying without reading any of the other replies yet,
(wow! there are quite a few), here are my thoughts:
>


> I will be brutally honest here:  I will probably never play or buy
anything that is pure T20.  I am not a completist; I don't need to have
everything.  I do like CT and continue to collect stuff related to CT and
related to Traveller history (in-game history).  (I continue to impatiently
wait for the CT Reprint series to continue on.)

I'll probably never run T20. I have a Traveller rules set ot two that I'm
familiar with, and I don't feel the need to switch. T20 is not the point for
me; It's Traveller! (wth d20 mechanics). If you see what I mean. So I hear
and understand you.

>
> Here is one thing I would like to see: before you asked about adventures
set in the CT period of the Spinward Marches.  I am not interested in that.
I would be much more interested in adventures set in the Spinward Marches
during the T20 period of 1000.  That is area not yet covered that I think
would be fun.

It would indeed. We might be able to oblige....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 03:32:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 02:32:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <ML-2.3.1020467931.8394.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <000e01c1f34d$482748d0$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> > The terms foil, epee, cutlass, katana, saber and smallsword all describe
> > very specific weapons.  It seems to me that the author of TA#1 knows
little
> > or nothing about edged weapons.
>
> It could also indicate that it's retaining some compatibility with some
> previous version of Traveller in which 'foil' referred to something odd
> (someone had no clue about bladed weapons, but it may not have been the
author
> of TA#1).

That was pretty much the point.

>
> Still, I don't see any real point to continuing the confusion; just rename
the
> weapon to a smallsword.  For that matter, I suspect the naval weapon is
really
> supposed to be a saber, not a cutlass.

Hey, we could rename meson guns too. And other stuff. Would that start the
Armageddon Flamewar, do you think?? (chuckles)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 03:33:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 02:33:09 2002
Subject: [TML] OT
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503223649.0209aa48@192.168.0.1> <p04330102b8f949e6adf5@[198.123.22.164]>
Message-ID: <001e01c1f34d$85550ee0$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

This has just appeared; thought I'd share it here...

http://www.summersdale.com/AIsheets/SelfDefence/AI-TheSelfDefenceManual.htm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 03:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat May  4 02:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1f34d$85550ee0$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503223649.0209aa48@192.168.0.1>
 <p04330102b8f949e6adf5@[198.123.22.164]>
 <001e01c1f34d$85550ee0$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <200205040546530348.20A12645@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/4/2002 at 10:24 AM MJ Dougherty wrote:

>This has just appeared; thought I'd share it here...
>
>http://www.summersdale.com/AIsheets/SelfDefence/AI-TheSelfDefenceManual.htm=


Umm I think they have the wrong cover in place? Unless the book is 'A=
 Thousand Miles Upon the Nile' by Amelia Edwards ;)

The text is correct though.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 04:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 03:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <B8F8657A.598F4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c1f34d$48f6cdd0$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> > "The Navy Foil has a slightly heavier blade, which is curved in the
manner
> > of a cutalss."
> > "The Navy Foil is only slightly more robust than a conventional foil..."
>
> Well, that's obviously a poor choice of words.  What is described is not a
> foil.  A foil, by definition is a light bladed weapon that is used for
> thrusting only.  Calling the weapon described above a foil is like calling
> an SMG a 'shotgun that fires a smaller brass containing only one pellet.
> The barrel is rifled and each pull of the trigger fires multiple rounds
> sequentially'.

Except that it's already in Traveller canon as a Foil, and I was therefore
stuck with it.

>
> The terms foil, epee, cutlass, katana, saber and smallsword all describe
> very specific weapons.  It seems to me that the author of TA#1 knows
little
> or nothing about edged weapons.

How many (very different) weapons do you think are all called "sabres"?

Pop quiz: is a sabre straight or curved?

Answer Both. Depending upon which model you look at.


Try explaining the various different versions of just one name - take Rapier
or Sabre as an example, in a few pages of a supplement that's got to cover a
bunch of other stuff too. And then you'll see why I used this approach.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 04:18:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 03:18:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <3CD31190.26568C92@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <001001c1f34d$49cfc8b0$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> > CT has been out for some time, I believe.
> 
> Hoist by my own petard! Though in my defense I would like to 
> point out that TA1 is a dual stated product and one of the
> stat sets is for a game that isn't out yet.
> 
> 

Yes, but as the Evil Master of Cheap Shots, I had to take this one....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 04:19:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 03:19:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205031528520.23531-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <001101c1f34d$4a8758e0$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> But I'd really rather not subscribe and just buy the book.  Can I do that?

"Uuurgh. You want give us munny for book?? We let you do that...!"

Seriosuly, yes. The best-ov will be independently available in print.

>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 04:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 03:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503223649.0209aa48@192.168.0.1> <p04330102b8f949e6adf5@[198.123.22.164]> <001e01c1f34d$85550ee0$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <200205040546530348.20A12645@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <002901c1f358$f7a06480$51d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>This has just appeared; thought I'd share it here...
>
>http://www.summersdale.com/AIsheets/SelfDefence/AI-TheSelfDefenceManual.htm

Umm I think they have the wrong cover in place? Unless the book is 'A
Thousand Miles Upon the Nile' by Amelia Edwards ;)

The text is correct though.

** Yup.I was puzzled about the cover...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 06:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat May  4 05:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
References: <20020503232511.99AC8279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <016001c1f365$82c85ca0$695d8690@computer>

> From: Steven Hudson)
> >From: "Shawn R Sears"
> >Everyone benefits from the use of roads and rails.
>
>   So? What, are you some kind of commie fellow Traveller?

As we know, of course, Traveller has always been commie propoganda:  why
else does "Mayday" appear so prominently on it's covers?

But what I have found alarming in this thread is the degree to which people
have been apologising for the imperialist US state.  Comrades!  I am
disappointed!  Let's face it - we all know that most of the US budget is
spent subverting democratic governments in Venezuela and doing other good
things like that.  Sheesh!  Any decent red would argue that _any_ taxes paid
to the US government are wasted, totally illegitimate and should simply be
cut off....   :  )

"Woof! Woof! Woof!"  That's my other barking mad impression.

OK, back to swords and Styryx...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 06:13:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat May  4 05:13:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
References: <20020503232511.99AC8279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <016101c1f365$83703560$695d8690@computer>

> From: Jeff Hopper
> If a Traveller Lite, similar to GURPS Lite or Mekton Alpha, were made
> avilable for download FREE then people would try it out just because it
> wouldn't cost anything.

If a Traveller Lite was really well written, and contained the main things,
it would probably be the version of the rules I would actually prefer to
play...

I've got every edition to date.  I prefer CT because of its simplicity, but
the original combat system is a bit too wonky, and bolting on AHL/Striker is
a bit awkward.

A ten-page wonder could be just right.  Ten pages of rules, ten thousand
pages of background....

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 06:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat May  4 05:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <B8F86E38.5990B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1020467931.8394.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3CD47A63.12766.4B8146@localhost>

On 3 May 2002 at 16:41, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Well, the cutlass was a traditional navy weapon.  The sabre is a cavalry
> weapon.  It's curved blade is supposed to facilitate slashes made by a
> mounted man.
> 
> I see that we need to put Burton's "Book of the Sword" on the recommended
> reading list (not directed at you).

I think it's a great pity that Burton died before he finished this 
work, I really do.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 06:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat May  4 05:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #466 - 18 msgs
In-Reply-To: <3CD2BDA9.70409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CD47F9A.1737.5FE253@localhost>

On 3 May 2002 at 9:41, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > On 2 May 2002 at 23:47, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>I myself own a Commission Mauser (gewehr 88) with Turkish sight markings and 
> >>a German arsenal stamp (Lowe) dated 1890. Still shootable provided one 
> >>exercises care with the loads.
> > 
> > 
> > That would've been for black powder at that time, wouldn't it?
> > 
> 
> Nah, by 1890 they were using smokeless powders. IIRC the transition 
> between black and smokeless took place mostly in the 1880's and Mauser 
> was one of the manufacturers leading the charge.

Well IIRC the .303 was the first service round to use smokeless powder 
and it didn't change from black power until 1892.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 07:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat May  4 06:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1f34d$85550ee0$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEECBDNAA.tml@downport.com>

Will that be available in a T20 PDF version? ;)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MJ Dougherty

> This has just appeared; thought I'd share it here...
>
> http://www.summersdale.com/AIsheets/SelfDefence/AI-TheSelfDefenceM
> anual.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 07:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 06:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEECBDNAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <003201c1f36e$841734b0$a1db93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

----- 

> Will that be available in a T20 PDF version? ;)


No, it's a real book. With pictures.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 07:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat May  4 06:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
Message-ID: <200205041336.FPP00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Alan Bradley" says
>I prefer CT because of its simplicity, but
>the original combat system is a bit too wonky, and bolting 
>on AHL/Striker is a bit awkward.
>
>A ten-page wonder could be just right.  Ten pages of rules, 
>ten thousand pages of background....
>

I'm working on a combat system to bolt on.  If you can't 
wait, I'd suggest ACQ.  Of course, everyone raise their hand 
if you've done a combat system bolt-on for CT...
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 07:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat May  4 06:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #466 - 18 msgs
Message-ID: <200205041337.FPP01056@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
>Well IIRC the .303 was the first service round to use 
>smokeless powder and it didn't change from black power until 
>1892.
>

The first smokeless military cartridge was the Lebel.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 07:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat May  4 06:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Smokeless rifles
In-Reply-To: <3CD47F9A.1737.5FE253@localhost>
References: <3CD2BDA9.70409@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CD48D54.15061.121E31@localhost>

On 5 May 2002, at 0:40, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Well IIRC the .303 was the first service round to use smokeless powder
> and it didn't change from black power until 1892.

Nope, the first service smokeless powder round was the French 
8mm Lebel of 1886. The Germans introduced the 7.92mm Model 
1888 (which used a Mannlicher bolt and Mauser M1871/84 
magazine) in response.. The Belgians introduced the first modern 
Mauser in 1889. The Austrians introduced their first smokeless 
Mannlicher in 1890. The Russians introduced their 7.62mm 
smokeless Mosin-Nagant in 1891. The UK were comparitive late 
comers, but with the Lee action did chose the best military bolt 
action.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 07:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat May  4 06:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 2nd TML bar fight
References: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEFLCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <3CD3E450.25090337@mindspring.com>

Shawn R Sears wrote:

> > I'm not sure these sort of things are such a bad idea.  It would tie
> > the projects in better with their constituencies.  For example, the
> > SF tax would give NASA funding from a source that puts a priority on
> > its activities and give those who are interested in space research
> > more results.  (And people are more tolerant of taxes that go to
> > specific things they support).
>
> Since you support this horrifically stupid idea, you can pay 10%.
> Yours, mine, and the eight other people I've talked to who think
> the idea is abominable.
>
> It's because of that same stupid mentality that we pay 50% of our
> incomes in taxes!!! And what do we get to show for our tax money?
>
> More stupid laws the take away our civil liberties.
> War on drugs. LOST
> War on illiteracy. LOST
> A foreign policy that turned part of my city to rubble,
> and causes roughly half the world to hate America.
> Tens of thousands killed in Afghanistan, but missed Bin Laden!
>
> And here's what's coming next:
> A 1% tax on all fitness equipment to support school Physical Education.
> A 1% tax on all violent shows and movies to support the police department.
> A 1% tax on all pornography to fight teen pregnancy.
> A 1% tax on ALL books to combat the war on illiteracy.
> (Sci-Fi fans pay double)
> A 1% tax on food to support agricultural research.
> A 1% tax on computers to support the Internet.
> A 1% tax on candy to support dental research.
> A 1% tax on music to support the performing arts.
> A 1% tax on guns to support the military.
> A 1% tax on housing to support the homeless.
> A 1% tax on cars and gas to support the fight air pollution.
> A 1% tax on cars and gas to support the promote highway safety.
> A 1% air travel to support airline safety.
> (Too late on that one!)
> A 1% tax on water to support the EPA.
> A 1% tax on oil to pay for new Alaskan drilling.
> A 1% tax on all electrical appliances to support the Department of Energy.
> A 10% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support SETI.
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support NASA.
> (Traveller players pay twice)
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support fusion research.
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support the Atomic Energy
> Commission.
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support Army weapons
> research.
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support psychiatric research.
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support gravimetrics.
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support physics.
> A 1% tax on Traveller games and supplements to support astronomy.
> A 10% tax on Traveller games and supplements to research how people with
> IQ's in the top 5% of the population can think that new taxes are a good
> thing, and how we can use this information to fool "all of the people, all
> of the time".
>
> -Shawn R Sears-
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Private Savage (probationary), approaches stealthily, ready to brain the
rabble-rouser, when a voice rings out.

Chaplain Bari: Hey! What are you doing there! Don't I know you! Police!

Probationary Private Savage: Shit! (Runs down dark alley)

Rabble-rouser: A 10% tax on Travellers to support SJG. A 10% tax on Travellers
to support GM's.

Chaplain Bari: Its OK. I'll help you.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
                               -Thomas Jefferson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 07:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat May  4 06:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHOEFMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com> <024801c1f2ad$7d8d22b0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CD3E6A7.F1027DDD@mindspring.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> > > Was that really necessary?
> > >
> >
> > Yes it really was FUCKING necessary?
>
> It was not.
>
> Please go away.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Unfortunately asking such a person politely seldom works. I would
suggest a short hiatus for Mr. Sears, enforced by the listmom. I hear
enough of this language on the job.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
                               -Thomas Jefferson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 07:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat May  4 06:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] TA 1 Review
Message-ID: <memo.115492@cix.compulink.co.uk>

Traveller's Aide # 1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space
Reviewed by: Mexal

Title of Book:  Traveller's Aide # 1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space

Game Line: Traveller (Classic & d20)
Author: Martin Doherty 
Publisher: Quiklink Interactive
Length: 45 pages, full colour, Acrobat file.
Price: $5
Highs and lows: Comprehensive survey of personal weaponry available in the 
Traveller universe.
Would buy it if: You want a wide range of weapons and complete game 
information at your fingertips.

This first offering in what is intended to be a series with a new issue 
every month or two, this well-presented PDF covers all manner of personal 
armaments from knives and clubs through swords and boarding axes to small 
arms. Descriptions, notes on their history and use, sketches and those 
all-important statistics - presented for 'original' Classic Traveller (CT) 
and the new d20 Traveller (T20) - are all included along with useful 
material on how to smuggle the weapon of your choice out of the starport 
extrality zone onto that nice high Law Level (i.e. lots of weapons 
restrictions) planet you're visiting&#8230; or, if you're the GM, how to spot 
what those rascals of characters are up to!

True 'gun bunnies' may be slightly disappointed in that military small 
arms are not covered, but it is refreshing to find a hardware-orientated 
game supplement that does not assume that everybody can get their hands on 
milspec equipment, and concentrates on items that normal civilian 
Travellers will be able to obtain. Do not fear, military weaponry and 
armour are promised for later versions.

This is, however, a lot more than a weapons catalogue. Personalised 
snippets of information from notables explain such important topics as 
what the sensible Traveller ought to carry, how the Imperial Weapon Permit 
system works and how it interacts with local weapon control laws. 
Interspersed are notes for the GM explaining how to use or modify each 
area for use in their own games. There's even a delightful essay from a 
Naval officer in which she states that, "the proliferation of small arms&#8230; 
should be curtailed immediately and with the greatest vigour." A retired 
Marine presents a more reasoned case, explaining that any prudent 
individual ought to ensure that he is properly equipped and trained for 
any eventuality, including that in which combat might be the only option. 

These preliminaries out of the way, the detail begins with a discussion of 
melee weapons, i.e. bladed and blunt weapons that may be used in the hand 
in combat. Non-lethal weapons are also covered along with warnings that 
the 'threat' value of a non-lethal item is much less than that of even a 
small blade or firearm! Indeed, it is these continual 'real world' asides 
that make this such a fascinating read, it's easy to forget that I'm 
curled up at a computer in 21st century England and imagine that I'm 
actually reading a weapons magazine in the far future&#8230;

Aging traditionalist gamers such as myself can be delighted by the 
presence of the 'original' Traveller nomenclature for cold steel - the 
'blade' as anything above a small dagger that isn't a sword, and the 
misuse (in contemporary eyes trained in sport fencing) of the name 'foil' 
for a gentleman's sidearm. Cold steel is expanded on with the addition of 
spears, bayonets, lances and even polearms&#8230; and at last, the 'boarding 
axe' that has delighted generations of EE 'Doc' Smith's Lensman fans is 
included! 

Less stylish combatants may indulge themselves with brass knuckles while 
those who practise martial arts are now equipped with the necessary 
information to bring their throwing stars, flails, nunchuks, etc., out of 
the dojo. Archers are also catered for with a range of bow weapons and 
more esoteric thrown weapons such as boomerangs are also covered.

And then to the weapons of most Traveller's choice: firearms. These are 
presented in historical sequence, beginning with black powder and smooth 
bore weapons and progressing forwards to modern slug throwers and more 
futuristic flechette and laser weapons. (With, I am glad to see, a note 
explaining the difference between 'clip' and 'magazine' for the large 
number of folks who use the two terms interchangeably!)

Each weapon is discussed in turn, including description, ease of use, 
capabilities and limitations. Useful points such as how easy it is to 
obtain or conceal are included. While reference is made to the usefulness 
(or otherwise) of various weapons and loads in zero-g conditions, nobody 
seems to worry about the lack of wisdom inherent in discharging a 
projectile weapon in a pressurised environment!

As already mentioned, non-lethal weapons are also given good coverage, so 
if you prefer to gas, stun or drug the opposition, spray him with an 
irritant or make a nasty noise at him, your needs are catered for. Each 
form of assault is both described and backed up with the apposite rules 
for both CT and T20. This section rounds up with assorted sights and 
ancillary equipment (even a heads-up display that can even track your 
ammunition expenditure&#8230; just in case you lose count!

Next come several pages of detailed statistics tables for all the classes 
of weapons mentioned, in both CT and T20 formats. This section includes 
game details of the effects of different sorts of ammunition, for those 
who like to pick their loads according to the situation.

And we're still only just over half-through the book!

Time to add flavour, the sort of thing that adds to the 'alternate 
reality' of the game. A list of well known weapons companies. And then&#8230; 
and then: a partial catalogue of weapons to give your possessions some 
individuality - have a Manstopper Six or an Ultraforce 14 on your hip 
rather than just another autopistol! All neatly tabulated with prices and 
ammunition ready for the characters to go shopping. Just what every GM 
needs when the players announce that they need some new weapons!

There are even a few 'unique' and 'unusual' weapons to choose from&#8230; A 
dedicated marksman might choose a Portcullis Sector Knight, hand made and 
firing match grade ammunition, giving him an inherent +1 bonus (just as 
well, as it won't accommodate electronic sights!).

Finally, Referee Information, including some variations on combat rules 
such as area fire and panic fire, and abstractions of weapons searches. 
There's a Contraband Weapon Penalty Chart for when you manage to catch 
them smuggling too&#8230;

Overall, an addition to your Traveller library well worth the having if 
weapons feature in your games. If succeeding issues live up to this 
standard, it's a product line you should keep an eye on. A 6- or 12-issue 
subscription may be taken out or individual copies purchased depending on 
your interests and needs. Visit http://www.travellerrpg.com/ for further 
information or to buy yours.

This review will appear in RPG Action - http://www.rpgaction.com/ - 
shortly.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 07:55:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat May  4 06:55:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Today's Haiku
References: <200205031512.FNU07726@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD3E6DD.DB68BB1F@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> I see the f word
> Sometimes again and again
> It's not very bright
>
> I like an ObTrav
> The F word is not Canon
> I'm sure you agree
>
> ________________
> Watching programs run
> Endless hours of debugging
> Lightning flash outside
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Thank you John. I needed a smile.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
                               -Thomas Jefferson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 08:01:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat May  4 07:01:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b8f949e6adf5@[198.123.22.164]>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503223649.0209aa48@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3CD4927F.21039.264C37@localhost>

On 4 May 2002, at 1:19, David P. Summers wrote:

> Is there enough interest and material to support a second Traveller
> magazine?  JTAS went down to biweekly recently.... --

Well, not neccessarily. I'd imagine that there'd be more than a few 
JTAS subscribers who'd also be a potential market for another 
good mag (ie some, possibly quite a few, JTAS subscribers would 
probably also subscribe to another mag). Mind you, if I were the 
one signing the cheques, I'd want to do some fairly thorough 
checking before I'd commit myself on this (especially since 
sjgames third online mag did fold).
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 08:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat May  4 07:02:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Flaming Trolls
References: <20020503161649.80025.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CD3E8B4.17CF6B99@mindspring.com>

Daniel Tacit wrote:

> >
> > What NPC's do you have in your Traveller Universe
> > that
> > are either (a) simply there to be obnoxious, or (b)
> > irritatingly humorous.  I'm thinking of people like
> > the Joe Pesci(sp) character from the Leathal Weapon
> > movies.
> I have  Instellarms representatives  that hang out on
> the more lawless worlds and try to peddle hardware.
> They dress in period clothing, my current one dresses
> in early 1900's British army fatigues(jungle warfare I
> think)travels via grav belt and is always at hand when
> things get hairy.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Whirrs. Click. Alan busily files serial numbers and presents his players
with a NEW idea.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
                               -Thomas Jefferson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 08:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 07:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] TA 1 Review
References: <memo.115492@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <007a01c1f374$92da71f0$a1db93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


>> Title of Book:  Traveller's Aide # 1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space
>
> Game Line: Traveller (Classic & d20)
> Author: Martin Doherty

Ack! You spelled my name wrong!


>
> These preliminaries out of the way, the detail begins with a discussion of
> melee weapons, i.e. bladed and blunt weapons that may be used in the hand
> in combat. Non-lethal weapons are also covered along with warnings that
> the 'threat' value of a non-lethal item is much less than that of even a
> small blade or firearm! Indeed, it is these continual 'real world' asides
> that make this such a fascinating read, it's easy to forget that I'm
> curled up at a computer in 21st century England and imagine that I'm
> actually reading a weapons magazine in the far future.

For those who visited the URL I posted earlier today... there is some
commonality between TA#1 and my forthcoming self-defence manual....





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 08:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat May  4 07:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
References: <200205031903.FOC06356@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD3EBF1.94855E7C@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

> Given the propensity of people to engage in "hasty words" I
> was reminded of what may be a mythical "other time".
>
> They say that when duelling was legal, or at least overlooked
> in most cases, that "gentlemen" were more polite, or at least
> more careful not to inflame the passions of others.
>
> In a time that preceded the advent of Valium and Xanax, hasty
> words would often have Darwinian consequences (not always the
> right outcome, either).
>
> Given the wearing of ceremonial weapons, what level of
> duelling might there be in the Imperium, and would people
> have a better care as to their choice of words (or even
> opening their mouths to speak)?
>
> I happen to like the idea of duelling as a means of settling
> social hash.  I would think that it tends to silence the
> meager of mind early in life.
>
> IMTU there is duelling amongst the nobility (it's not legal,
> but under certain circumstances, people tend to overlook
> it).  There is also vendetta, and all that might imply.
>
> If duelling exists IYTU, are there age-old rules?
>
> Comments, please.
> ________________
> Watching programs run
> Endless hours of debugging
> Lightning flash outside
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Dueling is alive and well IMTU. It is semi legal at best, but ignored
when its the nobility. There are the age old trappings, seconds, fight
at agreed on time, the challenged chooses the weapons( Great if you are
good with a blade and he isn't), failure to accept carries social
stigma, etc....


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
                               -Thomas Jefferson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 08:17:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat May  4 07:17:11 2002
Subject: [TML] taxes
References: <RELAY2uwjt5a8XG4RYs00002d3a@relay2.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <3CD3EC29.1969A4D5@mindspring.com>

"markc@peak.org" wrote:

> Matt Ashley <helvorn@yahoo.com>
>
> > Actually, our great politicians in California are pondering
> > a tax on sugared sodas to combat obese children!
>
> Heck, we don't need a tax to combat obese children, Matt.  They
> don't run as fast as other kids, so you just don't have to lead
> them as much in the crosshairs! :^)
>
>     - Mark C.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!! Keyboard kill


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
                               -Thomas Jefferson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 08:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat May  4 07:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA 1 Review
Message-ID: <memo.116064@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <007a01c1f374$92da71f0$a1db93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
RATS!!!!

Mexal (who said I could spell?).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 09:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat May  4 08:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
In-Reply-To: <3CD4927F.21039.264C37@localhost>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMOECDDNAA.tml@downport.com>

And do remember that a house organ is out there partly to be a regular
reminder that your product line is available, lest the weebles forget during
that brief moment when they have ready cash.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Andrew

> Well, not neccessarily. I'd imagine that there'd be more than a few
> JTAS subscribers who'd also be a potential market for another
> good mag (ie some, possibly quite a few, JTAS subscribers would
> probably also subscribe to another mag). Mind you, if I were the
> one signing the cheques, I'd want to do some fairly thorough
> checking before I'd commit myself on this (especially since
> sjgames third online mag did fold).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 09:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat May  4 08:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Anecdote WRT the blade wpn discussions
In-Reply-To: <106.1179e551.2a049cbc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020504075441.009eb420@mindspring.com>

At 10:09 PM 5/3/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Bill Keith once told me that during his career as a medico in the Navy he was
>once assigned to a base near Washington that provided personnel for a lot of
>ceremonial functions, which meant lots of the young gentlemen had dress
>swords (by whatever name called) and a common injury was minor cuts resulting
>from inexperienced officers fencing in their copious free time.
>
>Reminds me of watching the neighbor kid in the parking lot out practicing
>cool moves with his buterfly knife . . . flip-flip-flip "OW!" clatter.  . . .
>flip-flip-flip "OW!" clatter.

During OSUT we received bayonet training.  The Drills patiently explained 
that these were real, sharpened bayonets, and we needed to treat them with 
the same respect that we gave a loaded M-16.

Fat chance. Some idiot from another platoon decided that he was an expert, 
and was showing off by flipping his bayonet in the air and catching it. Did 
this successfully twice.  On the third thrown, the blade hit point down, 
and went all the way through his palm.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 09:23:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat May  4 08:23:50 2002
Subject: [TML] THUDD ideas - Exploration Cruiser
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEJBEFAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <08c001c1f2a8$80798680$1f9e15ac@warrior>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020504082153.009fdec0@mindspring.com>

At 12:34 PM 5/4/02 +0800, you wrote:
>Budget is likely a problem unless someone is prepared to set a different one
>for each rule set used as prices very enormously from Traveller incarnation
>to incarnation.

Budget should not be set for one simple reason.

One of the fun things about the THUDDD was seeing who could come up with 
economical designs.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 09:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May  4 08:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
Message-ID: <f7.1ac0e7c1.2a055707@aol.com>

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In a message dated 5/4/02 2:30:49 AM Central Daylight Time, we encounter some 
talk concerning chapels and such:
> 
> On Sat, 4 May 2002 00:47:09 -0400 "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> writes:
> > You are welcome IMTU, where all naval vessels with more than 150 
> > crewmen have their own chaplain :)
> 
> Thank you kind sir.
> 
> > -Swordy (who is still trying to decide where to put the chapel on 
> > his AHL deck plans)
> 
> Close enough to a galley, but just far enough away that the fragrance
> doesn't waft into the chapel.
> My office and quarters attached but separate.
> 
> Chaplain Bari
> 
> 

   Sounds good, but the multiple cultures and races encountered would have to 
have access, too. Now would there just be a single Religious Specialist (what 
type of MOS skill table would *that* have, I wonder) aboard, or would a team 
of them be more appropos? 
   I'm thinking the gathering place would have a Holodeckesque set-up, 
allowing the appearence of the joint to be altered to something a little more 
*homey* to whatever group of worshipers is present; the space's appearance 
remaining unadorned when performing multiple faith services :)
  -Ken Murphy-  

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 5/4/02 2:30:49 AM Central Daylight Time, we encounter some talk concerning chapels and such:
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR>On Sat, 4 May 2002 00:47:09 -0400 "Swordy" &lt;tml@downport.com&gt; writes:
<BR>&gt; You are welcome IMTU, where all naval vessels with more than 150 
<BR>&gt; crewmen have their own chaplain :)
<BR>
<BR>Thank you kind sir.
<BR>
<BR>&gt; -Swordy (who is still trying to decide where to put the chapel on 
<BR>&gt; his AHL deck plans)
<BR>
<BR>Close enough to a galley, but just far enough away that the fragrance
<BR>doesn't waft into the chapel.
<BR>My office and quarters attached but separate.
<BR>
<BR>Chaplain Bari
<BR>
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Sounds good, but the multiple cultures and races encountered would have to have access, too. Now would there just be a single Religious Specialist (what type of MOS skill table would *that* have, I wonder) aboard, or would a team of them be more appropos? 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I'm thinking the gathering place would have a Holodeckesque set-up, allowing the appearence of the joint to be altered to something a little more *homey* to whatever group of worshipers is present; the space's appearance remaining unadorned when performing multiple faith services :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken Murphy- &nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

--part1_f7.1ac0e7c1.2a055707_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 09:25:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat May  4 08:25:48 2002
Subject: [TML] GT help, please
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020504082359.009fe520@mindspring.com>

Looking for assistance from someone experienced with the GT modular ship 
design system.  Please contact me off list.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 09:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Sat May  4 08:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Concerns (MJ Dougherty)
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36AF@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com> <009801c1f2eb$253a0400$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CD3FE9F.5080303@gmx.net>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

>><snip Andy's comments>
>>So consider me 100% on the QuikLink/T20/CT bandwagon, as a consumer, a
>>player, a GM, and hopefully even a contributor. I'm looking forward to the
>>ride :)
>>
>
>OUR bandwagon has meson guns and superdense armour. And big, iron tracks.
>You'll see.
>
Does it have a two storey tall mini-lop with a switch-blade image for  
nose-art ?

>
>_
>


-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 09:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sat May  4 08:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
In-Reply-To: <f7.1ac0e7c1.2a055707@aol.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMECFDNAA.tml@downport.com>

This is empire. You are issued your dogma for faith and practice along with
your uniform, floppy hat and shortsword/sabre/foil. And you are expected at
chapel occasionally, so check the chaplain's duty roster. :)


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On
In a message dated 5/4/02 2:30:49 AM Central Daylight Time, we encounter
some talk concerning chapels and such:

  Sounds good, but the multiple cultures and races encountered would have to
have access, too. Now would there just be a single Religious Specialist
(what type of MOS skill table would *that* have, I wonder) aboard, or would
a team of them be more appropos?
  I'm thinking the gathering place would have a Holodeckesque set-up,
allowing the appearence of the joint to be altered to something a little
more *homey* to whatever group of worshipers is present; the space's
appearance remaining unadorned when performing multiple faith services :)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 09:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat May  4 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <000501c1f34d$3bbd2f10$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503153711.00b90ec0@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020503224258.02a5e328@192.168.0.1>
 <000501c1f34d$3bbd2f10$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <m3k7qjyl4n.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>
> Would anyone want a book of weapons that all worked more or less the
> same in terms of mechanics, but needed pages and pages of desription
> to distinguish them form one another?

Yes.  But I'm a geek.

And I would have said smallsword.  If Marc Miller (great guy though he
may be) had called a white dwarf a black hole, I'd correct the term in
later editions...  But I am, as has been noted, a pedant.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Farewell Romance the Soldier spoke
By skill-of-sword we may not win
But scuffle 'midst the unclean smoke
Of arquebuse and culverin
Honor is lost and none may tell
Who paid good blows, Romance farewell.
                            --Kipling

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 09:44:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 08:44:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Concerns (MJ Dougherty)
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36AF@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com> <009801c1f2eb$253a0400$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3CD3FE9F.5080303@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <00c101c1f382$7bd3f130$a1db93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >OUR bandwagon has meson guns and superdense armour. And big, iron tracks.
> >You'll see.
> >
> Does it have a two storey tall mini-lop with a switch-blade image for  
> nose-art ?


It can, if you want...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 09:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 08:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503153711.00b90ec0@urbin.net><5.1.0.14.0.20020503224258.02a5e328@192.168.0.1><000501c1f34d$3bbd2f10$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <m3k7qjyl4n.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00ea01c1f383$866b5150$a1db93c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> > Would anyone want a book of weapons that all worked more or less the
> > same in terms of mechanics, but needed pages and pages of desription
> > to distinguish them form one another?
>
> Yes.  But I'm a geek.

Me too. A Weapons Nerd, it seems.

>
> And I would have said smallsword.  If Marc Miller (great guy though he
> may be) had called a white dwarf a black hole, I'd correct the term in
> later editions...  But I am, as has been noted, a pedant.

I'd correct THAT. But as to what a particular weapon is called 30 centuries
from now??? I'd leave that as he decided.

Oh yeah, I did...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 10:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat May  4 09:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <000501c1f34d$3bbd2f10$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8F959CE.59A05%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/4/02 1:48 AM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

> Hah. I sent one of my fencing students to the Commonwealth Games. I know
> about swords.

[snip]

> 
> Regards, MJD
> Fencing instructor of 15 years' experience, military historian... and author
> or TA#1.

I withdraw my comment about lack of knowledge.  But I do admit to some
frustration with the propagation of misinformation, particularly in gaming
material when the author knows better.

No offense, but it seems to me that maintaining what is, IMHO a technical
error in new Traveller material because it is 'canon' seems to be a bit
much.  It is a game, and not holy writ.  And sadly, many reader will assume
that the author knows what he is talking about and is factually correct, and
use gaming material as reference material in real life.

I've taken a lot of gamers out shooting.  Many of them have derived their
firearms knowledge from game source material.  Many think they are
knowledgeable about firearms.  Many are wrong.

I guess my complaint is that gamers will read what you write, assume that
you know what you are talking about and file your information away as fact.
After all, when you are talking about things like swords, this is clearly
not a 57th century weapon, so why would you change definitions?

Anyway, I understand your logic and this will be my last post on the
subject.

BTW, thanks for including support for CT support and thanks for creating new
Traveller material.  I wouldn't want you to think I don't appreciate your
efforts.  I'm just one of those really picky buggers who likes everything to
be 'right'. My wife can barely stand to watch movies with me sometimes, as I
site there and point out historical inaccuracies, technical errors, etc.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 10:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat May  4 09:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP trade codes
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEFEDPAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <000201c1f389$1748ca40$9700a8c0@imogen>

Terry C wrote:
> > Actually, the Michelin Guide metaphor is how I tend  to  view  it
> > too ... but non-intedicted Red Zones are extremely  rare:  A  Red
> > Zone rating would be disasterous  for  a  world's  trade  and  if
> > inappropriate could lead to some sort  of  legal  action  by  the
> > world in question against TAS.
> 
> This kind of response to a problem is way to U.S centric. IMTU
> a local noble would demand satisfaction form one of the nobles
> on the TAS board. No nobles involved? Well the citizens could
> petition the Count responsible for the world or petition the
> subsector duke for action.. Do you see what I'm getting at
> here? IMTU the courts are for two things. The dock so that the
> Imperium can take care of troublema... I mean, punish
> criminals. And a place where the Megacorps can squeeze their
> local competito... I mean, prevent violation of their patents
> and intellectual property. Individuals (except for very rich
> ones) and even worlds, need not tie up the nobility (who sit
> on courts) with trivialities. "Obviously if the place wasn't a
> sucking pit-hole the TAS review committee wouldn't be telling
> their rich an noble clients it was unsafe to go there. Case
> dismissed. Pay the court clerk on the way out for wasting the
> Emperor's time."

Comms glitch ... my bad ... I used the phrase "legal action" as a
short hand without explanation, I didn't mean it in a  US-centric
way:

IMTU an  aggrieved  world's  representative  noble  (a  Baron  or
Marquis) would petition the court of the subsector  Duke  on  its
behalf.  Sometimes this is the same noble (for example the  Baron
of Yori is also the Duke of Regina).  As Red  Zone  status  hurts
interstellar trade this reduces the subsector Duke's  power  base
(partially  trade-based  influence),  so  he'll   be   favourable
predisposed to the petition to begin with.  The trade partners of
the aggrieved world would also lend weight to the petition as the
Red Zone status would also hurt them.

The style of the subsector court is not consistent across the  3I
... some have a simple audience system while others have  a  more
formal bureacracy (Regina has a Senate a  little  like  Britain's
parliament prior to King Charles I).

TAS enjoys a great deal of support  from  the  peerage  ...  good
access to nobles and 3I government officials, priority  slots  on
the x-boat message system, assistance with local  governments  in
setting up TAS facilities, etc, not to mention the good publicity
that noble patronage brings.  If the subsector  Duke  requests  a
"re-evaluation" it is generally in their interests to comply  and
return an Amber Zone rating instead.

So by "legal action" I meant something part way  between  "legal"
and "diplomatic".

(In criminal matters the subsector court is one of "last  resort"
where no suitable planetary jurisdiction can be found.  In  these
cases usually a "special court" is commissioned by the  subsector
court.  Patent and IP protection  is  similarly  pushed  down  to
local jurisdictions were possible ... on the  interstellar  level
such protection is weaker than the  current  US  system  so  many
Megacorps may prefer local protection.)

> Which brings up my other point: TAS requires a million credit
> entry fee. In game play, many PC's get membership for "Services
> to the Imperium." In the game universe I would expect that the
> number of such memberships handed out is very small. IMTU, TNS
> is generally picked up by the local news services, but it is
> primarily sent out for members. The JTAS is an exclusive
> membership publication, with much more limited circulation.
> More like an insider trade journal, than like National
> Geographic. (IMTU the Imperial Geological Society, sometimes
> still known by its original initials: SGS (Sylean Geographical
> Society, puts out such a publication.)
> 
> TAS inspects ships and rates world primarily as a service to
> its members, who are some of the richest and most powerful
> people in the Imperium. They do a good job at it because that's
> what their members demand. They just aren't sued.

Again IMTU:  TAS offes  a  large  range  of  services.  Some  are
exclusive to members, some are free to members but  available  to
non-members for a fee, and some are available to members and non-
members for a fee but with priority given to members were  supply
is limited, etc.

(I like the SGS idea.)



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 10:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat May  4 09:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #466 - 18 msgs
In-Reply-To: <3CD47F9A.1737.5FE253@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8F95BDC.59A0A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/4/02 5:40 AM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> 
> Well IIRC the .303 was the first service round to use smokeless powder
> and it didn't change from black power until 1892.

The French were actually the first to employ smokeless powder in a military
round, using the famous 'Poudre B'. The 8mm Lebel of 1886 was the first
smokeless powder round adopted.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 10:37:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat May  4 09:37:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Smokeless rifles
In-Reply-To: <3CD48D54.15061.121E31@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8F95C38.59A0B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/4/02 6:39 AM, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance at a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
wrote:

> smokeless Mosin-Nagant in 1891. The UK were comparitive late
> comers, but with the Lee action did chose the best military bolt
> action.

There are some fans of the Mauser and Springfield who might argue that
point.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 10:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat May  4 09:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Smokeless rifles
Message-ID: <200205041643.FPV01157@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>There are some fans of the Mauser and Springfield who might 
>argue that point.
>
Yes, and an anachronistic codger like me who likes the Krag-
Jorgensen (not as strong, but slick as butter).

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 10:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat May  4 09:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <m3k7qjyl4n.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B8F95E3F.59A0E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/4/02 8:43 AM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>> 
>> Would anyone want a book of weapons that all worked more or less the
>> same in terms of mechanics, but needed pages and pages of desription
>> to distinguish them form one another?
> 
> Yes.  But I'm a geek.

I agree.  Heck, many gamers buy books just because they have pages and pages
of weapons that all basically work the same. I've got a shelf full of them.
And then I think about the length most players go to describe their personal
weapons.  It's a rare role player who carries a 'sword or revolver'.  Oh,
no.  It has to be an elvin blade made by the master Durosh the younger and
carried in a dragon skin scabbard, or else a KillTech 88 magnum with laser
sight.

When I was doing the 'Mercenaries Guide to Weapons'  website, I did a
detailed search of gaming firearms information.  There are many many sites
of player designed weapons out there for a variety of game systems.  Most of
the weapons described aren't substantially different from the 'archtype'
weapons in the CT 'canon', but somehow, it's important to the players.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 10:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat May  4 09:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
In-Reply-To: <20020503230534.C4543@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20504.100226.8T9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>> Happy Fun Ball-class Dreadnaught
>
>> Terrain following sensors (TF: 570, NOE: 190).
>
> I'm trying to picture this 300 metre smiley ball zooming over the
> treetops.  Nope, it just won't fit in my head... besides, with that
> amount of armour, who *cares* where the terrain is?  ;)
>
> "That slight shaking was us taking the top off that mountain.  The
> groundpounders are going to have to adjust their maps.  Again."

At any sort of *real* velocity, the mountain would severely dent the ship.

>> 6 / 6.2 Maneuver (Thruster: 2249800 MW)
>
> Not HEPlaR, I hope.  I really don't want to know how much exhaust
> energy comes out of this thing if it's HEPlaR!

Well, that makes it useful for clearing landing areas. Just sit her
down on her tail, slowly. <eg>

>> 12 power (Fusion: 6,000,000MW, 1 yr)
>
> Hmm -- for perfect black-body radiation, I get a surface temperature
> of 4400 K.  I wonder how long it takes to cool down before people can
> use the airlocks?  ;)

Think of it as anti boarding defenses. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 11:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 10:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <B8F959CE.59A05%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001601c1f38d$5380e8e0$a2e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I withdraw my comment about lack of knowledge.  But I do admit to some
> frustration with the propagation of misinformation, particularly in gaming
> material when the author knows better.
>
> No offense, but it seems to me that maintaining what is, IMHO a technical
> error in new Traveller material because it is 'canon' seems to be a bit
> much.  It is a game, and not holy writ.  And sadly, many reader will
assume
> that the author knows what he is talking about and is factually correct,
and
> use gaming material as reference material in real life.

In the 57th century, that weapon is known as a Foil. That's all there is to
it.
Were it a modern game or an historically accurate one, I would be the first
to demand accuracy.

>
> I've taken a lot of gamers out shooting.  Many of them have derived their
> firearms knowledge from game source material.  Many think they are
> knowledgeable about firearms.  Many are wrong.
>
> I guess my complaint is that gamers will read what you write, assume that
> you know what you are talking about and file your information away as
fact.
> After all, when you are talking about things like swords, this is clearly
> not a 57th century weapon, so why would you change definitions?
>
> Anyway, I understand your logic and this will be my last post on the
> subject.

Well, we have somewhat different opinions, then. I don't see that being much
of a problem.

>
> BTW, thanks for including support for CT support and thanks for creating
new
> Traveller material.  I wouldn't want you to think I don't appreciate your
> efforts.  I'm just one of those really picky buggers who likes everything
to
> be 'right'. My wife can barely stand to watch movies with me sometimes, as
I
> site there and point out historical inaccuracies, technical errors, etc.

You and me both. I went to see Species and Outbreak with a microbiologist.
You can imagine how nitpicky we got...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 11:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Sat May  4 10:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEJBEFAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <20020504170558.57222.qmail@web13306.mail.yahoo.com>

I'd love to see more support for T4, there are a lot
of possibile ideas that can be expanded on there.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 12:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat May  4 11:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503223649.0209aa48@192.168.0.1> <p04330102b8f949e6adf5@[198.123.22.164]> <001e01c1f34d$85550ee0$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <200205040546530348.20A12645@mail.atl.bellsouth.net> <002901c1f358$f7a06480$51d493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CD42487.6080003@telocity.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

>>This has just appeared; thought I'd share it here...
>>
>>http://www.summersdale.com/AIsheets/SelfDefence/AI-TheSelfDefenceManual.htm
>>
> 
> Umm I think they have the wrong cover in place? Unless the book is 'A
> Thousand Miles Upon the Nile' by Amelia Edwards ;)
> 
> The text is correct though.
> 
> ** Yup.I was puzzled about the cover...

It's good company to be associated with, though.

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 12:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sat May  4 11:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <019301c1f31f$b9619380$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205041140310.20919-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 4 May 2002, Matthew Bond wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 4:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [TML] Hasty words
> 
> 
> > On Sat, 4 May 2002, Matthew Bond wrote:
> > 
> > > > It being Good Friday, I must repeat the ancient question, `What is
> > > > truth?'
> > > 
> > > Wasn't that a month ago?
> > 
> > Not if you're Orthodox.
> > 
> > Kiri, who grew up in a community with lots of Orthodox folks.
> 
> Orthodox as in Greek or Jewish?

Greek, Russian, Syrian... but I don't know too many Orthodox Jews that
celebrate Easter.  <G>

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 13:03:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat May  4 12:03:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <memo.111010@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020504135425.00cfbaf0@192.168.0.1>

At 10:09 AM 5/4/2002 +0100, Megan Robertson wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503225908.02b633d0@192.168.0.1>
>When it comes to a blade, give me my kukri any time :-)
>[fx: smiles at same beside me...]

That would be what CT calls a 'blade', a very large fighting knife.
Ranging up to just short of a gladius...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Edward Swatschek)
Date: Sat May  4 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200205032249.g43Mn8R22026@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
References: <200205032249.g43Mn8R22026@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20020504173549.PNJP5183.priv-edtnes09-hme0.telusplanet.net@there>

On Friday 03 May 2002 15:48, Steven Hudson wrote:
> From: "Shawn R Sears" <ShawnSears@telocity.com>
>
> ...
>
> >> transportation. In the U.S. public transport, be it Amtrak or local
> >> public transport the critics always complain that it must pay for
> >> itself. In the states most places don't have public transport because
> >> the claim is that it must pay for itself.
> >
> >Everyone benefits from the use of roads and rails.
>
>   So? What, are you some kind of commie fellow Traveller?


Citizen!

Please fill out forms 57aT3/b and 6901c with your accusations.  Please name 
any other so-called Citizens you feel may be traitors.  All accusations 
should be considered anonymous.

Dirty Commie Traitor!

Please fill out forms 1-558-16670, A52495/5, DIN0217g3 and CfT28-2 and 
report to your nearest execution station.

The Computer is your friend.

-- 
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 14:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sat May  4 13:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503153711.00b90ec0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020503224258.02a5e328@192.168.0.1> <000501c1f34d$3bbd2f10$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CD43FCC.C435463B@pobox.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> ...

> I made 2 choices.
>
> 1: Stick with Traveller canon and call what Traveller calls a foil, a foil.
> 2. Classic Traveller only lists "Foil" "Cutlass" "sword" and "broadsword".
> The "sword" definition would have to cover any cutting sword, bigger than a
> foil, not like a cutlass, that wasn't an enormous 2-hander.

Mr. Dougherty,
I applaud those choices.  I have not subscribed to TA yet, but intend to do so
shortly.  The fact that you made these choices indicates to me that you have
chosen to try to remain, as much as possible, consistent with canon.  Keep up
the good work..

Thx,
WHopper




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 14:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat May  4 13:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
In-Reply-To: <f7.1ac0e7c1.2a055707@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020504130822.009f56f0@mindspring.com>

At 11:23 AM 5/4/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Sounds good, but the multiple cultures and races encountered would have to 
>have access, too. Now would there just be a single Religious Specialist 
>(what type of MOS skill table would *that* have, I wonder) aboard, or 
>would a team of them be more appropos?
>   I'm thinking the gathering place would have a Holodeckesque set-up, 
> allowing the appearence of the joint to be altered to something a little 
> more *homey* to whatever group of worshipers is present; the space's 
> appearance remaining unadorned when performing multiple faith services :)

IMTU, there is a rather neutral chapel space on larger ships, with common 
areas serving as temporary facilities on smaller vessels. Most Imperial 
citizens are some variant of the Church of the Stellar Divinity, so most 
Chaplains are of that faith, but they are expected to be able to work with 
other faiths if necessary.

Think Father Mulcahey..  His church was the mess tent and he ministered to 
anyone who passed through. That would be a good model.  In the Marine Force 
the chaplain is just another grunt when the call comes to prepare for drop.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 14:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Sat May  4 13:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <02bb01c1f2bf$f27b80a0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <000901c1f3a9$0c691380$0f01a8c0@terry>

> > The TML and its response is hardly a measure of the
> > marketability of a product.  We're all a bunch of hard to
> > please types, so take it as a compliment if people aren't
> > nitpicking the product to death.  Also, a lot of people on
> > the list are authors (published or unpublished) in their own
> > right.  I get the impression that supplements to CT have to
> > come across *big* like that Transhuman supplement to get
> > anyone's attention.
> 
> Okay, I see that. But as said elsewhere... the complete lack of
interest I
> was perceiving was worrying me.

Like the others, I have let my wallet do the talking and am now awaiting
it with interest before I commit to a subscription. I think CT products
have a great utility and I look forward to seeing a lot of great
background type material and other subjects.

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Edward Swatschek)
Date: Sat May  4 13:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200205032249.g43Mn8R22026@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
References: <200205032249.g43Mn8R22026@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20020504202437.PGDQ5496.priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.net@there>

On Friday 03 May 2002 15:48, Steven Hudson wrote:
> From: "Shawn R Sears" <ShawnSears@telocity.com>
> ...
>
> >> transportation. In the U.S. public transport, be it Amtrak or local
> >> public transport the critics always complain that it must pay for
> >> itself. In the states most places don't have public transport because
> >> the claim is that it must pay for itself.
> >
> >Everyone benefits from the use of roads and rails.
>
>   So? What, are you some kind of commie fellow Traveller?


Citizen!

Please fill out forms 57aT3/b and 6901c with your accusations.  Please name 
any other so-called Citizens you feel may be traitors.  All accusations 
should be considered anonymous.

Dirty Commie Traitor!

Please fill out forms 1-558-16670, A52495/5, DIN0217g3 and CfT28-2 and 
report to your nearest execution station.

The Computer is your friend.

-- 
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 16:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May  4 15:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
Message-ID: <20020504.151252.-125827.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sat, 4 May 2002 11:42:59 -0400 "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> writes:
>       This is empire. You are issued your dogma for faith and practice 
along with your uniform, floppy hat and shortsword/sabre/foil. And you
are  expected at chapel occasionally, so check the chaplain's duty
roster. :)

Now now now Swordy, not all crewmen are from one system, or empire.
People from all over the region will join forces against a common enemy,
and with it comes their private lives, including various religions.

I remember my first Sunday in Basic Training being marched into chapel,
listening to boredom [as a Christian] being marched out, and telling my
DI "thanks, but no thanks." I didn't go back.

Don't be so rigid, you'll attract more with honey.

Chaplain Bari

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 16:14:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May  4 15:14:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
Message-ID: <20020504.151252.-125827.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

-Ken

On Sat, 4 May 2002 11:23:51 EDT MurfNMurf@aol.com writes:
>
>    Sounds good, but the multiple cultures and races encountered  would
have to  have access, too. Now would there just be a single Religious 
Specialist (what  type of MOS skill table would *that* have, I wonder)
aboard, or  would a team  of them be more apropos? 

MOS Chaplaincy

related skills:

PHILOSOPHY/THEOLOGY (Int+Educ)/2;
HISTORY (Int+Educ)/2
RESEARCH (Int+Educ)/2; 

[I could copy and send the details if you want them].

Though a single Chaplain could and would learn various cross linked
religious rites for a crews varied beliefs, it's more apropos to have a
team of the major divisions.

>    I'm thinking the gathering place would have a Holodeckesque  setup, 
allowing the appearance of the joint to be altered to something a  little
more *homey* to whatever group of worshipers is present; the space's 
appearance 
> remaining unadorned when performing multiple faith services :)

I like the idea of holodeck chapel imaging, but only if it's real life
quality like Star Trek, not the lousy stuff from Starwars.

Chaplain Bari

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 16:15:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May  4 15:15:46 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
Message-ID: <20020504.151252.-125827.2.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sat, 4 May 2002 17:22:37 +1000 Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
> > If refueling is "no problem" then why worry about jumping into a
> > system when on a long trip? Why not maintain a straight course, 
> > and refuel as you say?
> 
> Because it adds an extra few weeks to your trip, plus or minus a
> couple of weeks.  Then there is the chance that your sensors might 
> not
> be operation at peak efficiency, or there might be a lack of icy
> bodies nearby due to random fluctuations, or your maneuver drive 
> might not like being run for 2 weeks constantly, or ... etc

It seems to be a huge gamble just to acquire enough power plant fuel to
stay alive, let alone enough to fill a jump tank. Considering 21 days to
begin with, maneuver drive starting and stopping each time you detect
something, the time involved in sucking it in, purifying it, finding
more, yadda, yadda, yadda. It's great for a survival series in space, but
I'd rather tear up the character sheets and start over.

> > How about MT rules?
> 
> Unfortunately I don't own MT, so I can't comment.  Does it even have
> rules covering this type of sensor operation?

I looked around, but couldn't find anything for MT on this.

Turokan

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 16:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Sat May  4 15:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Anti-Imperial sentiments in the Imperium  (was: Tax on Science Fiction)
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHOEFMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <000101c1f3b9$8b0a1e40$0f01a8c0@terry>

> > Was that really necessary?
> 
> Yes it really was <snip> necessary?
> 
> If I could travel through time, I would take with me 3 bats.
> 1 made from heavy rubber.
> 1 made from hard plastic
> 1 made from aluminum.
> I would travel through time to moments when some leader
> came up with his brilliant but truly stupid idea that
> <snip> up the world just that much more for the rest of us.
> I'd pop in just as he finished his imbecilic statement,
> and I'd whack him in the back of the head with one of the bats.
> Then I'd pop back out. That Alabama fool would get the rubber one.

I have to disagree. Being foul of mouth just for the sake of being
offensive to people that are not standing in front of you and do not
know you is too prevalent on the internet these days already without
soiling this list of people dedicated to Traveller with gratuitous off
topic posts just so you can be a potty mouth without getting your mouth
washed out. Whatever view you espouse, you do it and your own reputation
a disservice by detracting from your points with your unnecessary
profanity. Do all of us a favor, including yourself, and take your off
topic posts to a list where they will be on topic.  

OB Traveller:

How well do the Imperials tolerate dissenting views IYTU? Are they
allowed to speak publicly to urge the overthrow of the Imperium? What
hot buttons will get people watched by the Imperials and what is
acceptable? 

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 16:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat May  4 15:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503153711.00b90ec0@urbin.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020503224258.02a5e328@192.168.0.1> <000501c1f34d$3bbd2f10$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3CD43FCC.C435463B@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c1f3ba$8deb76d0$c7e893c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Mr. Dougherty,
> I applaud those choices.  I have not subscribed to TA yet, but intend to
do so
> shortly.  The fact that you made these choices indicates to me that you
have
> chosen to try to remain, as much as possible, consistent with canon.  Keep
up
> the good work..

Thanks. We're trying to remain close to both canon and "feeling" of
Traveller. Of course, Canon is already contradictory in places...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 16:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat May  4 15:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #466 - 18 msgs
In-Reply-To: <200205041337.FPP01056@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD50CCD.27203.3E33F2@localhost>

On 4 May 2002 at 9:37, John T. Kwon wrote:

> "Rupert Boleyn" says
> >Well IIRC the .303 was the first service round to use 
> >smokeless powder and it didn't change from black power until 
> >1892.
> >
> 
> The first smokeless military cartridge was the Lebel.

So it was. For some reason my memory's playing up.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 16:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat May  4 15:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <B8F959CE.59A05%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <000501c1f34d$3bbd2f10$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CD50EF0.20975.4689EC@localhost>

On 4 May 2002 at 9:26, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I guess my complaint is that gamers will read what you write, assume
> that you know what you are talking about and file your information
> away as fact. After all, when you are talking about things like
> swords, this is clearly not a 57th century weapon, so why would you
> change definitions? 

Shows how much they know of history. Just look at the various names for 
assorted kinds of maces and flails, or the range of weapons that have 
been called broadswords or longswords over the centuries.

I think that the dueling sword of the 3I being called a 'foil' is quite 
neat. To me it implies that some bright spark out in the ruins of the 
Rule of Man 're-invented' dueling with swords and used a modified 
fencing foil, so naturally they all ended up being called foils.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 16:54:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat May  4 15:54:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #466 - 18 msgs
In-Reply-To: <B8F95BDC.59A0A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CD47F9A.1737.5FE253@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CD50F1A.24738.472DB8@localhost>

On 4 May 2002 at 9:35, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 5/4/02 5:40 AM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Well IIRC the .303 was the first service round to use smokeless powder
> > and it didn't change from black power until 1892.
> 
> The French were actually the first to employ smokeless powder in a military
> round, using the famous 'Poudre B'. The 8mm Lebel of 1886 was the first
> smokeless powder round adopted.

Yeah, I remember now. For some reason my brain was playing silly games 
last night.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 16:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat May  4 15:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
In-Reply-To: <20020504.151252.-125827.2.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020504.151252.-125827.2.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020505085357.A13852@freeman.little-possums.net>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:
[... deep-space refuelling...]
> the time involved in sucking it in, purifying it, finding more,

Umm, did you read what I wrote?  The nearest object they detect is
almost certainly more than a *kilometre* in diameter, composed almost
entirely of hydrogen compounds.  To put it another way, about forty
*million* dtons.  With the expected densities of such objects, enough
to fill the jump tanks of a 400-dton scout ship about two hundred
thousand times over.  And the power plant, of course.

Once you've found one such body, you're *not* going to need to find
another one.  Not even if you have a very large fleet of million-dton
dreadnaughts to fill up.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 16:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat May  4 15:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <B8F95E3F.59A0E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <m3k7qjyl4n.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3CD51003.24456.4ABED3@localhost>

On 4 May 2002 at 9:45, Tod Glenn wrote:

> When I was doing the 'Mercenaries Guide to Weapons'  website, I did
> a detailed search of gaming firearms information.  There are many
> many sites of player designed weapons out there for a variety of game
> systems.  Most of the weapons described aren't substantially
> different from the 'archtype' weapons in the CT 'canon', but somehow,
> it's important to the players. 

Well that's not much different from RL. How many armies out there 
modify the weapons they buy or make under licence from the US or Europe 
slightly, give them a new local designation (which they insist their 
troops use) and claim it's an improvement?


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 16:57:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat May  4 15:57:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Smokeless rifles
In-Reply-To: <B8F95C38.59A0B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CD48D54.15061.121E31@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CD51003.23755.4ABE14@localhost>

On 4 May 2002 at 9:36, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 5/4/02 6:39 AM, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance at a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
> wrote:
> 
> > smokeless Mosin-Nagant in 1891. The UK were comparitive late
> > comers, but with the Lee action did chose the best military bolt
> > action.
> 
> There are some fans of the Mauser and Springfield who might argue that
> point.

Let them. While the Mauser fans might have a point I don't think the 
Springfield fans do - it wasn't adopted by everyone who could get their 
hands on it.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 17:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat May  4 16:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
In-Reply-To: <20504.100226.8T9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020503230534.C4543@freeman.little-possums.net> <20504.100226.8T9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020505091224.B13852@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> > Not HEPlaR, I hope.  I really don't want to know how much exhaust
> > energy comes out of this thing if it's HEPlaR!
> 
> Well, that makes it useful for clearing landing areas. Just sit her
> down on her tail, slowly. <eg>

Unlike the 'punching through a mountain' comment I made rather tongue
in cheek, I expect that the HEPlaR exhaust would *literally* remove
large chunks of mountains.

I get an exhaust power of about 10^14 W at 1 gee thrust, e.g. when
slowly settling to the surface of a terrestrial planet.  To put it
another way, enough power to liquefy and disperse about a hundred
thousand cubic metres of rock per second.  In just one minute, it
would probably remove the top two hundred metres or so from a mountain
peak, or hollow out a similar volume of bedrock in a flatter region.

(I guess I did want to know how much exhaust energy it produces after
all :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 17:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat May  4 16:30:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <20020504025012.0DA84279C7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205050122560.30975-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Robert Uhl writes:
>Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>
>>Well, as civilized as sanctioned murder can be, that is. It is merely
>>yet another example of 'Rule by Bully'...the strong can prey on the
>>weak at will.
>
>It's not sanctioned murder; it's two men agreeing to settle their
>differences.  Either party can refuse, of course.  It's not as though,
>being challenged, one _must_ accept.  One may lose face--but that's
>one's own choice.

Judging by historical examples (well, historical fictional examples -- or
would that be fictional historical examples?), the right to refuse a
challenge was the right to chose between being killed outright and being
ruined. Some choice.

Bruce is absolutely right. Now, if the challenged party had a right to a
state-appointed champion, it might be different... ;-)



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 17:47:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat May  4 16:47:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
Message-ID: <200205042346.FQJ00863@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>I get an exhaust power of about 10^14 W at 1 gee thrust, 
>e.g. when slowly settling to the surface of a terrestrial 
>planet.  To put it another way, enough power to liquefy and 
>disperse about a hundred thousand cubic metres of rock per 
>second.  In just one minute, it would probably remove the 
>top two hundred metres or so from a mountain peak, or hollow 
>out a similar volume of bedrock in a flatter region.
>

This reminds me of a calculation in Arthur C. Clarke's old 
work, Interplanetary Flight.  He speculates that engines too 
much more powerful (in terms of energy density deposited in 
the exhaust) than some nuclear engines run the risk 
of "volatilizing" the whole engine.  He let the reader 
consider - even if the plasma did not touch the engine walls -
 the rate of energy dissipation by direct radiation into the 
nearby engine parts. Even if it's a minute fraction of the 
total energy output (less than a fraction of a percent), it 
would be more than sufficient to vaporize the whole thing.

Has anyone tried to compare, let's say, 1/1000th of 1 percent 
of the engine output, and then compare this to the energy 
required to vaporize steel?
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 18:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat May  4 17:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA 1 Review
In-Reply-To: <memo.115492@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020504201535.00cfc568@192.168.0.1>

At 02:53 PM 5/4/2002 +0100, Megan Robertson wrote:
>Traveller's Aide # 1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space
>Reviewed by: Mexal
>
>Title of Book:  Traveller's Aide # 1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space

[snip]

Very nice!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/3584/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 18:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat May  4 17:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <B8F959CE.59A05%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <000501c1f34d$3bbd2f10$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020504201756.01b188d0@192.168.0.1>

At 09:26 AM 5/4/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
[snip]
>BTW, thanks for including support for CT support and thanks for creating new
>Traveller material.  I wouldn't want you to think I don't appreciate your
>efforts.  I'm just one of those really picky buggers who likes everything to
>be 'right'. My wife can barely stand to watch movies with me sometimes, as I
>site there and point out historical inaccuracies, technical errors, etc.

Response to Movie Viewing Comment #1: "Naw...you must be kidding."

Response to Movie Viewing Comment #2: "Hmm...so it's not just my wife who 
complains about that."



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
           http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 18:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat May  4 17:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Smokeless rifles
In-Reply-To: <B8F95C38.59A0B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CD48D54.15061.121E31@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CD524D8.16770.1B0D95@localhost>

On 4 May 2002, at 9:36, Tod Glenn wrote:

> > The UK were comparitive late
> > comers, but with the Lee action did chose the best military bolt
> > action.

> There are some fans of the Mauser and Springfield who might argue that
> point.

Horses for courses. If you want a sniper to take the eye out of an 
ace at 3,000m use a Mauser, if you want a grunt to hit a man sized 
target at 300m use a Lee.


Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 18:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat May  4 17:30:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
In-Reply-To: <20020504170558.57222.qmail@web13306.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEJBEFAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020504202652.01c07eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 10:05 AM 5/4/2002 -0700, Jeff Hopper wrote:

>I'd love to see more support for T4, there are a lot
>of possibile ideas that can be expanded on there.

I agree, the T4, Year 0 Era is looks like a lot of fun.
As for the rule set...I'd rather see CT (and given the publisher that would 
probably come with 20T support as well).
Hmmm...My preference in rules sets would probably run:

CT
GURPS:T
TNE
T4
T20
MegaT dead last.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
I'm what love is all about. I've got American Teeth
and a Spanish Mouth -- Fernando (Billy Crystal)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 18:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat May  4 17:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
References: <20020504152754.8C66F279E0@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008701c1f3cd$4a57d540$a0b18b90@computer>

> From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> Religious Specialist (what type of MOS skill table would *that* have, I
> wonder)

Well, in the Australian army in WWII, and doubtless others, chaplains seem
to have spent a lot of time recovering and burying corpses.  The Australians
were also often accompanied by Salvation Army volunteers, who provided them
with cups of tea, and stuff like that.

From these analogies, we can work out the primary skill of Vilani chaplains:
Steward.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com








From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 18:37:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat May  4 17:37:00 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <20020504190107.7E575279C7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008801c1f3cd$4e4e8ae0$a0b18b90@computer>

From: Tod Glenn
> And then I think about the length most players go to describe their
> personal weapons.  It's a rare role player who carries a 'sword or
> revolver'.  Oh, no.  It has to be an elvin blade made by the master Durosh
> the younger and carried in a dragon skin scabbard, or else a KillTech 88
> magnum with laser sight.

I must admit to never having seen this.  The only times the groups I have
ever played with used non-generic weapons in our games were if they were
magical or had similar advantages.  Even then they were rarely described in
much detail.  For example, my longest-played/highest-level D&D character had
a weapon that could transform between being a dagger or various types of
sword, or shrink to an easily concealable size.  Until today I have never
even thought about what it actually looked like at other than such a broad
level.

For Traveller I've usually been even vaguer.  After all, the blade thingie
above was a unique magic item.  In Traveller I tend to use very generic
weapons, either bought from Instellarms, "like the guns everybody else in
the Imperium use", or, at a pinch, from some mid-tech world that produces
good reliable slug-throwers that can use a readily available type of
ammunition.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com








From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 19:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat May  4 18:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020504202652.01c07eb0@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020504170558.57222.qmail@web13306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CD52D0B.4709.BC277F@localhost>

On 4 May 2002 at 20:29, Mark Urbin wrote:

> I agree, the T4, Year 0 Era is looks like a lot of fun.
> As for the rule set...I'd rather see CT (and given the publisher that would 
> probably come with 20T support as well).
> Hmmm...My preference in rules sets would probably run:
> 
> CT
> GURPS:T
> TNE
> T4
> T20
> MegaT dead last.

Whereas mine would run:

TNE
GT
MT
CT
T4

I don't have any knowledge of T20, not having been a playtester, so I 
can't place it on the scale. However my guess would be between MT and 
GT.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 19:12:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat May  4 18:12:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
In-Reply-To: <200205042346.FQJ00863@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200205042346.FQJ00863@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020505111137.B14059@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Has anyone tried to compare, let's say, 1/1000th of 1 percent of the
> engine output, and then compare this to the energy required to
> vaporize steel?

A thousandth of a percent of HEPlaR exhaust energy isn't too bad: it
corresponds to a radiative equilibrium temperature of about 600 K,
well below the melting point of steel.

The crew won't get a chance to make their final farewells should there
be even a momentary obstruction in the drive tubes, though.  You
should probably treat it as the equivalent of a particle beam weapon
hit at about 20 MJ per ton of thrust.  More if it lasts longer than a
millisecond.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 19:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat May  4 18:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <008801c1f3cd$4e4e8ae0$a0b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <B8F9D68F.59B9C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/4/02 5:38 PM, Alan Bradley at abradley1@bigpond.com wrote:

> From: Tod Glenn
>> And then I think about the length most players go to describe their
>> personal weapons.  It's a rare role player who carries a 'sword or
>> revolver'.  Oh, no.  It has to be an elvin blade made by the master Durosh
>> the younger and carried in a dragon skin scabbard, or else a KillTech 88
>> magnum with laser sight.
> 
> I must admit to never having seen this.  The only times the groups I have
> ever played with used non-generic weapons in our games were if they were
> magical or had similar advantages.  Even then they were rarely described in
> much detail.  For example, my longest-played/highest-level D&D character had
> a weapon that could transform between being a dagger or various types of
> sword, or shrink to an easily concealable size.  Until today I have never
> even thought about what it actually looked like at other than such a broad
> level.
> 
> For Traveller I've usually been even vaguer.  After all, the blade thingie
> above was a unique magic item.  In Traveller I tend to use very generic
> weapons, either bought from Instellarms, "like the guns everybody else in
> the Imperium use", or, at a pinch, from some mid-tech world that produces
> good reliable slug-throwers that can use a readily available type of
> ammunition.

Well, I can only speak to my own experience.  Perhaps I overstated, and I am
certain that you are correct.  But I have dealt with many players who go to
great lengths to specify their equipment.  I've been in D&D games where
players provided drawings or pictures of their particular swords, helmets,
etc.  In the case of firearms and Traveller I've seen the same thing many
time.

In particular, we were speaking about a Traveller supplement of personal
weapons.  It seems to me that anyone who buys a supplement on weapons is not
expecting it to be full of generic stuff, otherwise, why buy it?  It's the
same for any other items described in a supplement, whether it be ships,
gear or what have you.  Certainly if I am buying a supplement, I expect
there to be new, unique or more detailed information that adds to the game
rather than just reiterates it.

I have not yet purchased Traveller Aide #1.  I probably will, mostly to have
it because it is CT compatible, but also because there might be a pearl in
there or a cool illustration.  And I certainly appreciate the work of the
authors in providing this material.

Now if I could only find an artist that was good at doing firearms, I'd
publish my own weapons catalog.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 19:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May  4 18:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
Message-ID: <20020504.182257.-113997.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 5 May 2002 10:22:40 +1000 "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
writes:
> > From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> > Religious Specialist (what type of MOS skill table would *that* 
have, I wonder)
> 
> Well, in the Australian army in WWII, and doubtless others,  chaplains
seem to have spent a lot of time recovering and burying corpses.  The 
Australians were also often accompanied by Salvation Army volunteers, who
 provided them
> with cups of tea, and stuff like that.

This is true for the US as well, along with a lot of counselling.

> From these analogies, we can work out the primary skill of Vilani 
chaplains:
> Steward.
> 

Nice one Alan :`)

Chaplaincy in the US Army is a special "Civilian" category.

I was checking this out in 1993 in hopes of enlisting in the US Army
Reserves as a Chaplain. I have up through age 52 to join.
Needless to say Lou Gehrig's disease attacked me in 1993 and blew that.

However, I hold onto my faith and hope of my God healing me. I'm 48 now,
so I've got time .

Chaplain Bari

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 19:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat May  4 18:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
Message-ID: <200205050130.FQN00348@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>The crew won't get a chance to make their final farewells 
>should there be even a momentary obstruction in the drive 
>tubes, though.  You should probably treat it as the 
>equivalent of a particle beam weapon hit at about 20 MJ per 
>ton of thrust.  More if it lasts longer than a millisecond.
>

I think the 1/1000th of 1 percent I gave earlier is "quite" 
optimistic concerning energy dissipated into the engine 
components versus energy moving out with the exhaust.  In 
fact, I think that in practice, we would have to wave both 
hands in order to keep it below 1 percent.

So, all I have to do to sabotage an Imperial battleship is to 
somehow make an EVA approach in port to glue a block of steel 
inside one of her main drive tubes (probably doesn't have to 
be a complete obstruction).  After she moves away from the 
dock on verniers, and starts the main drive - BOOM.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 19:45:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat May  4 18:45:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Chaplains
In-Reply-To: <20020504.182257.-113997.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B8F9DC89.59BB8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/4/02 6:22 PM, generalturokan@juno.com at generalturokan@juno.com wrote=
:
>=20
> Chaplaincy in the US Army is a special "Civilian" category.
>=20
> I was checking this out in 1993 in hopes of enlisting in the US Army
> Reserves as a Chaplain. I have up through age 52 to join.
> Needless to say Lou Gehrig's disease attacked me in 1993 and blew that.
>=20
> However, I hold onto my faith and hope of my God healing me. I'm 48 now,
> so I've got time .
>=20
> Chaplain Bari

All this chat about chaplains reminded me of the "Chaplains Medal." I
thought I'd share this with you.

The Chaplain's Medal for Heroism
During the Second World War, four Chaplains showed extreme heroism and made
great sacrifice after the torpedoing of their transport ship in the North
Atlantic. The four Lieutenants, Rev. George L. Fox, Methodist; Rabbi
Alexander D. Goode, Jewish; Fr. John P. Washington, Roman Catholic; and Rev=
.
Clark V. Poling, Dutch Reformed, quickly and quietly spread out among the
soldiers. They tried to calm the frightened, tend the wounded and guide the
disoriented toward safety. When there were no more lifejackets in the
storage room, the chaplains removed theirs and gave them to four frightened
young men. As the ship went down, survivors in nearby rafts could see the
four chaplains--arms linked and braced against the slanting deck. Their
voices could also be heard offering prayers.

That night Reverend Fox, Rabbi Goode, Reverend Poling, and Father Washingto=
n
passed life's ultimate test. In doing so, they became an enduring example o=
f
extraordinary faith, courage, and selflessness.

The Distinguished Service Cross and Purple Heart were awarded posthumously
19 Dec 1944, to the next of kin by Lt. Gen. Brehon B. Somervell, Commanding
General of the Army Service Forces, in a ceremony at the post chapel at For=
t
Myer, VA.=20

A posthumous Special Medal for Heroism, never before given and never to be
given again, was authorized by Congress and awarded by the President 18 Jan
1961. Congress wished to confer the Medal of Honor but was blocked by the
stringent requirements which required heroism performed under fire. The
special medal was intended to have the same weight and importance as the
Medal of Honor.=20
=A0=20

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 20:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May  4 19:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Chaplains
Message-ID: <20020504.190616.-113997.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sat, 04 May 2002 18:44:26 -0700 Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> All this chat about chaplains reminded me of the "Chaplains Medal." 
> 

Thanks Tod,

That's what it's all about, and the way I am, or better put "try to be!'

Chaplain Bari

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 20:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat May  4 19:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
In-Reply-To: <3CD52D0B.4709.BC277F@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020504202652.01c07eb0@192.168.0.1>
 <20020504170558.57222.qmail@web13306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020504220537.017d3710@192.168.0.1>

At 01:00 PM 5/5/2002 +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>On 4 May 2002 at 20:29, Mark Urbin wrote:
> > I agree, the T4, Year 0 Era is looks like a lot of fun.
> > As for the rule set...I'd rather see CT (and given the publisher that 
> would
> > probably come with 20T support as well).
> > Hmmm...My preference in rules sets would probably run:
> > CT
> > GURPS:T
> > TNE
> > T4
> > T20
> > MegaT dead last.
>Whereas mine would run:
>TNE
>GT
>MT
>CT
>T4
>I don't have any knowledge of T20, not having been a playtester, so I
>can't place it on the scale. However my guess would be between MT and
>GT.

Hmmm...I'm sure we'll get a lot of variation in this list.
I rated CT & GT high because:
a)  Those are the rule sets used in the games I'm currently in.
b)  Those are currently the only rule sets in print.

TNE is the rule set I used in the last F2F campaign I ran.
I didn't use the setting though.  I used the one GT is using, years before 
GT came out.

I prefer the Year Zero setting of T4 to the Rebellion Era, and I got a 
burned by buying first edition MegaT books with so many errors that you 
couldn't even build a decent ship.

I'll probably end up buying the 20T book and kicking the tires on the system.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 20:13:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat May  4 19:13:08 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <B8F9D68F.59B9C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <008801c1f3cd$4e4e8ae0$a0b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020504221050.00cee550@192.168.0.1>

At 06:18 PM 5/4/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
[snip]
>Now if I could only find an artist that was good at doing firearms, I'd
>publish my own weapons catalog.

I wonder if Jesse has tried turning out any 3D weapons renderings?
IMHO, a weapons book by you and illustrated by Jesse would be a gem.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 20:24:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat May  4 19:24:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020504220537.017d3710@192.168.0.1>
References: <3CD52D0B.4709.BC277F@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CD54059.2474.107944E@localhost>

On 4 May 2002 at 22:10, Mark Urbin wrote:

> Hmmm...I'm sure we'll get a lot of variation in this list.
> I rated CT & GT high because:
> a)  Those are the rule sets used in the games I'm currently in.
> b)  Those are currently the only rule sets in print.

Those are exactly the reasons GT is no.2.

> TNE is the rule set I used in the last F2F campaign I ran.
> I didn't use the setting though.  I used the one GT is using, years before 
> GT came out.
> 
> I prefer the Year Zero setting of T4 to the Rebellion Era, and I got a 
> burned by buying first edition MegaT books with so many errors that you 
> couldn't even build a decent ship.

I was lucky enough to not get round to buying it untol late in the day 
when it was mostly useable.
 
> I'll probably end up buying the 20T book and kicking the tires on
> the system. 

Me too. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 21:11:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat May  4 20:11:06 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC:  May Competition
Message-ID: <3CD49CE1.C3AA690F@mail.cswnet.com>

Walt Smith submits on Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 16:12:37 -0400:
>Mission profile:
>* 1+ year endurance (with wilderness refueling).

Walt Smith submits on Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 12:03:35 -0700 (PDT)
>Mission Spec:
>*  Under 20,000 Dtons.
>*  5+ years endurance (wilderness refueling allowed)

was one year
now five to endure
my brain hurt

HG2
back to the ship yard
brain explode

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 21:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Texas Redshift)
Date: Sat May  4 20:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Unintended Consequences
Message-ID: <DAV55NsokLQ8aZRhQdO0000012a@hotmail.com>

My post on taxes
Aroused obstreperous troll
Humble apologies

Oddly enough I never saw it coming.  The list has seemed so _grown up_ since
I joined a short while back.

What is the most funny, tragic, or far reaching unintended consequence
you've ever seen visited on players as a result of a seemingly innocuous or
well intentioned act?

Bill Scheets aka "Tex"
texasredshift@hotmail.com
billws@sysmatrix.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 21:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Sat May  4 20:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020504220537.017d3710@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020505032108.35982.qmail@web13301.mail.yahoo.com>

Honestly, I don't feel that it is fair to rank the
different versions of Traveller. Each has its own
advantages and disadvantages. The type of campaign
that you are going to run and the players involved
should determine the rules set that you wish to use.

The only version of Traveller that has left me cold
was MT, the background material on the Imperium was
fantastic and original but there was so much
information and rules from diverse sources forced
together that the original clarity of CT was greatly
diluted, making the game difficult to understand if
you've never played before. It didn't pass my own
personal acid test. 

That test is could a person who has no idea what a
role-playing game is, pick up this book and some dice,
work his/her/its way through reading the rules over a
weekend, understand what they've read, use the
evenings of the following week to create a couple of
adventures and game background, and then run a game as
a referee for some freinds on the next weekend.

Hmm, its late and I think I'm rambling at this point.
Time for bed.

Jeff M. Hopper

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 21:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Sat May  4 20:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Unintended Consequences
In-Reply-To: <DAV55NsokLQ8aZRhQdO0000012a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020505035255.710.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Texas Redshift <texasredshift@hotmail.com> wrote:
> What is the most funny, tragic, or far reaching
> unintended consequence
> you've ever seen visited on players as a result of a
> seemingly innocuous or
> well intentioned act?
> 
Happened to me. I was the player.
 
In a Call of Cthulhu game a few years back, the party
was being followed by a critter we had nicknamed the
"Standard Lovecraftian Blob" (I think it was a Dark
Young of Shub-Niggurath) which was gooey, slimy,
viscous, greenish-black, and had numerous eyeballs. It
was trailing us because it, or the GM, had a wicked
sense of humor and the non-Steve McQueen version of
'The Blob' had recently come out on video. The party
had reached a stumbling point and was arguing about
what to do next. I was getting frustrated and said,
"My character is going to the bathroom and relieve
himself." I then went to get another soda from the
fridge, the GM followed me. That bastard.

While there, sitting on the toilet, my PC hears a
gurgling sound from the bowl and looks down. Several
eyes imbedded in yuckiness blinked at me. Hello blob.

Check for sanity loss? Yes!

How much sanity is lost? Maximum!

The GM asks what does my PC do? Feeling silly, I told
him that I stand up fast. In fact I think my exact
words were, "My character launches himself straight up
from the toilet seat as fast as possible." The GM
smiled at me and reminded me how toilts were
constructed in the 1920s, with the tank situated above
the bowl and a pull cord for flushing. Crap.

The end result was a cut scalp, unconsciousness, and a
concussion from impacting the bottom of the toilet
tank on my PC, then another bleeding head injury and
cracked skull from when his head hit the bathroom
floor. The blob was amused and fled back down the
toilet drain. The GM was also amused, but he just went
back to the rest of the players, who were still
arguing about what to do next.

It was almost two hours of real time and about an hour
of game time before the players began wondering what
was taking my character so long in the bathroom. By
the time they got to him, he was dead from blood loss.
All they found was his body in a pool of blood on the
floor with multiple head injuries and a cracked toilet
tank. End of character.

I was OK with it because by the time my PC had died, I
had switched from soda to beer. It was and still is
the most ignoble death one of my characters has ever
achieved. I now try to think before my PC reacts.

Moral of the story? Never stand up fast from the
toilet when something in the bowl blinks at you,
especially if have a GM with a sadistic sense of
humor.

Jeff M. Hopper

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 22:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat May  4 21:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
In-Reply-To: <3CD52D0B.4709.BC277F@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020505041640.54831279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/05/02 at 01:00 PM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
said:

>> Hmmm...My preference in rules sets would probably run:
>> 
>> CT
>> GURPS:T
>> TNE
>> T4
>> T20
>> MegaT dead last.

>Whereas mine would run:

>TNE
>GT
>MT
>CT
>T4

I guess mine would be:

CT (although, I do tack on a "task system")
TNE
T4
MT
...and after a very big gap
GT

I don't know T20, but am keeping an open mind. 

If you want to make "rules" work over several of the systems, I
suggest using tasks with the (mostly) standard difficulty
descriptors...Routine, Difficult, Formidable, Staggering, Impossible.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 22:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat May  4 21:32:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Colichemarde
In-Reply-To: <B8F8EF05.599AE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020505043100.3C0FE279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/04/02 at 01:51 AM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 5/4/02 1:06 AM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>> 
>>> http://www.gggodwin.com/smlswd.jpg
>> 
>> I can see why it was considered "unattractive." <g>

>This was the most extreme example I could find.  Others are not so
>horrible. See http://www.adarastore.com/highlander/images/793lg.jpg

>These are colichemardes made for fans of the 'Highlander' series but
>embody the basic idea of this weapon in a more esthetic fashion 

No, those swords look okay to me, but I'm not a sword person. <g>
 
>> So, what would you call a sword that maintained the width near the
>> hilt of the colichemarde all the way down to the point?

>Most would call that a rapier.

But only if it was pretty long, right? If it was under a meter, it
appears to me (admittedly a non-sword person) that it would be a lot
like a marine/navy dress sword.   

Forgive me, but to me there are 3 kinds of swords: big two (and/or one
and a half) hand swords that slash, bash and bludgen; slim bladed
swords that slash and thrust; and needle-like swords that thrust only. 
ALL of the swords you've been talking about seem to fall in the second
catagory.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May  4 22:33:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Sat May  4 21:33:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Unintended Consequences
In-Reply-To: <20020505035255.710.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <DAV55NsokLQ8aZRhQdO0000012a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD46F48.31623.9EDC67@localhost>

what a way to go... still sounds like a real pisser though
and the GM left flushed with his victory?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 01:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sun May  5 00:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <B8F8DB47.5999B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205051048540.20035-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Sat, 4 May 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
> >>> Wasn't that a month ago?
> >> Not if you're Orthodox.
> > Orthodox as in Greek or Jewish?
> Certainly Eastern Orthodox, since the last time I checked, Jews don't
> celebrate Easter, it being a Christian holiday.

Well, the last time _I_ checked, Jesus came to Jerusalem during the
Easter. As there was no Christianity at that time, and the people there
were mainly Jews, I would say that Easter is a quite Jewish holiday.
They are celebrating the escape from the Egyptians.

Read you Bible, please. My excuse for not reading it well enough is that I
have been an atheist for all my life, and that I am such a pedantic with
books : they have to be read from beginning to end. Bible is quote boring
at some points...

(And yes, a couple of my Jewish friends celebrated Easter just a few weeks
ago. As a Jewish holiday.)

No offense meant. 

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 01:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sun May  5 00:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <B8F8DB47.5999B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205051056450.20035-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

> Certainly Eastern Orthodox, since the last time I checked, Jews don't
> celebrate Easter, it being a Christian holiday.

Seems like the subject was appropriate: 
In Finnish "easter" is "psiinen". The same word is used for the Jewish
holiday at the same time, but in English it is "passover". 

I apologize for the last post. B-/

Languages are hard. Everybody should have the same words for everything. 

B-(

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 02:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun May  5 01:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Colichemarde
In-Reply-To: <20020505043100.3C0FE279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8FA3476.59C8B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/4/02 9:31 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>> These are colichemardes made for fans of the 'Highlander' series but
>> embody the basic idea of this weapon in a more esthetic fashion
> 
> No, those swords look okay to me, but I'm not a sword person. <g>

To me too.  I just wouldn't vouch for the quality of the blades.
> 
>>> So, what would you call a sword that maintained the width near the
>>> hilt of the colichemarde all the way down to the point?
> 
>> Most would call that a rapier.
> 
> But only if it was pretty long, right? If it was under a meter, it
> appears to me (admittedly a non-sword person) that it would be a lot
> like a marine/navy dress sword.

Well, the rapier is a pretty broadly defined weapon.  Esentially, nothing
more than a thin, double edged sword, examples vary greatly in length
> 
> Forgive me, but to me there are 3 kinds of swords: big two (and/or one
> and a half) hand swords that slash, bash and bludgen; slim bladed
> swords that slash and thrust; and needle-like swords that thrust only.
> ALL of the swords you've been talking about seem to fall in the second
> catagory.
> 
> Eris

Well really the colichemarde and smallsword are thrusting weapons.  Both
came to be used primarily in dueling and are the sires of the modern fencing
epee.  Epee is probably the fencing discipline that comes closest to the
duel, without the complex rules of the saber and foil.  If one looks at a
many historical smallswords, they appear to be nothing more than a slightly
short epee with a different guard.  One more adapted to constant carry.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 02:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun May  5 01:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205051048540.20035-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <B8FA3692.59C8E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/5/02 12:54 AM, Mikko V. I. Parviainen at mvparvia@cc.hut.fi wrote:

> Well, the last time _I_ checked, Jesus came to Jerusalem during the
> Easter. As there was no Christianity at that time, and the people there
> were mainly Jews, I would say that Easter is a quite Jewish holiday.
> They are celebrating the escape from the Egyptians.
> 
> Read you Bible, please. My excuse for not reading it well enough is that I
> have been an atheist for all my life, and that I am such a pedantic with
> books : they have to be read from beginning to end. Bible is quote boring
> at some points...
> 
> (And yes, a couple of my Jewish friends celebrated Easter just a few weeks
> ago. As a Jewish holiday.)
> 
> No offense meant.

Don't you mean Passover?  Easter is the celebration of the resurrection of
Jesus.  Passover is the Jewish holiday that falls near the same time and
celebrates the escape from bondage in Egypt (and events leading up thereto).
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 02:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rachel Kronick)
Date: Sun May  5 01:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020504221050.00cee550@192.168.0.1>
References: <B8F9D68F.59B9C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD561A8.5764.8113D16@localhost>

On 4 May 2002, at 22:12, Mark Urbin wrote:

> At 06:18 PM 5/4/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
> [snip]
> >Now if I could only find an artist that was good at doing firearms, I'd
> >publish my own weapons catalog.
> 
> I wonder if Jesse has tried turning out any 3D weapons renderings?
> IMHO, a weapons book by you and illustrated by Jesse would be a gem.
> 

*ahem* <http://www.geocities.com/jiawen6/g120a.html> *ahem*

-- Rachel Kronick

(not of the highest quality, certainly, but noither the worst?)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 02:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun May  5 01:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <3CD561A8.5764.8113D16@localhost>
Message-ID: <B8FA3ECB.59D0B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/5/02 1:45 AM, Rachel Kronick at rachelkr@ms35.hinet.net wrote:

>> 
> 
> *ahem* <http://www.geocities.com/jiawen6/g120a.html> *ahem*
> 
> -- Rachel Kronick
> 
> (not of the highest quality, certainly, but noither the worst?)

I like it.  Certainly nothing to sneer at.  Far better than anything I could
ever hope to accomplish.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 03:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun May  5 02:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
Message-ID: <memo.131910@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020504201756.01b188d0@192.168.0.1>
>Response to Movie Viewing Comment #1: "Naw...you must be kidding."

>Response to Movie Viewing Comment #2: "Hmm...so it's not just my wife who 
>complains about that."

Hey - I resemble that remark!

An inaccuracy in something I know about can spoil a whole film... case in 
point, the 1979 version of "The 39 Steps" which opens in 1912 with an 
Admiral wearing a chest-full of World War One medals!

My "Eeek!" echoed round the cinema and nearly got me thrown out.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 04:00:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun May  5 03:00:34 2002
Subject: [TML] TA 1 Review
Message-ID: <memo.131909@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020504201535.00cfc568@192.168.0.1>
>>Traveller's Aide # 1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space
>>Reviewed by: Mexal
>>
>>Title of Book:  Traveller's Aide # 1: Personal Weapons of Charted Space

>[snip]

>Very nice!

Thank you, Mark :-)

I review for RPG Action, although this is the first TRAVELLER product I 
have looked at for them. They're at http://www.rpgaction.com/

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 04:01:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun May  5 03:01:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Chaplains
Message-ID: <memo.131911@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B8F9DC89.59BB8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

Hah - I have a picture of the Chaplain's Medal but never such a detailed 
account of what it was awarded for. Thanks... 

I think this is the first TML post to be archived in the 'medals' folder 
:-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.
http://www.medals.org.uk/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 04:02:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun May  5 03:02:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
Message-ID: <memo.131912@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B8FA3692.59C8E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
As information:

Jews celebrate the Passover (Pesach) at the time that - according to the 
Christians - Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem. The timing of the festivals 
is tied together... Pesach occurs on the 1st full moon after the 21st 
March, Easter is celebrated on the Sunday following said full moon.

Mexal (who is still wondering why her Muslim students get both the Muslim 
festivals AND Easter off while she has to settle for Easter. Ought I to 
change religion?).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 07:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Samuel D. Weiss)
Date: Sun May  5 06:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
References: <memo.131912@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <DAV56zsHodJg8F9202800004a01@hotmail.com>

As a bit of information, the reason Passover and Easter occur around the
same time is because the Last Supper was a Passover Sedar. (He was a Jew
after all.) The bread he passed around was matzoh. The wine was required for
the regular Passover service.


Sam

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun May  5 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Holidays (was Re: Hasty words)
In-Reply-To: <20020505081005.2BB34279CD@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020505081005.2BB34279CD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <i4cadu08jma9qvkvsebrlvl6fc0d2964v3@4ax.com>

On Sun, 05 May 2002 01:09:02 -0700, "Mikko V. I. Parviainen"
<mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> wrote:

>On Sat, 4 May 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
>> >>> Wasn't that a month ago?
>> >> Not if you're Orthodox.
>> > Orthodox as in Greek or Jewish?
>> Certainly Eastern Orthodox, since the last time I checked, Jews don't
>> celebrate Easter, it being a Christian holiday.

>Well, the last time _I_ checked, Jesus came to Jerusalem during the
>Easter. As there was no Christianity at that time, and the people there
>were mainly Jews, I would say that Easter is a quite Jewish holiday.
>They are celebrating the escape from the Egyptians.

No, he would have come to Jerusalem during Pesach, a.k.a. Passover.  The
Last Supper was a seder.  But yes, it does memorialize the Exodus.

"Not if you're Orthodox" would normally be interpreted as referring to
membership in one of the Eastern Rite churches that ultimately look to the
Patriarch of Constantinople as the First Among Equals (though not
exercising as much control over the various national Churches as the Bishop
of Rome claims over the Western Rite Church).

>Read you Bible, please. My excuse for not reading it well enough is that I
>have been an atheist for all my life, and that I am such a pedantic with
>books : they have to be read from beginning to end. Bible is quote boring
>at some points...

Funny, _my_ Bible (which in English is referred to as 'the Scriptures' and
among more observant Jews by its Hebrew acronym, 'tanakh') doesn't mention
Jesus at all.  And yet the most common translation into English displays
remarkable - almost word-for-word - parallelism with what I've heard
referred to as 'the Old Testament'.

>(And yes, a couple of my Jewish friends celebrated Easter just a few weeks
>ago. As a Jewish holiday.)

Nope.  They celebrated Pesach/Passover.

>No offense meant. 

None taken.  I'm Jewish, and bar mitzvah, so I know whereof I speak.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 07:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun May  5 06:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Wargame Rules: slightly OT, plus a link...
Message-ID: <F36oU8N2RBFf1o9S7uu0000a418@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     The current, and recurring, thread concerning which rules set is "best" 
for Our Olde Game triggered a rusty synapse in the weary Whipsnadian 
wetware.  I stumbled across this link a while back and have been meaning to 
share it with the List ever since.
     The inhabitants of that "fortress, built by Nature for herself" have 
put together a SUPERB site featuring FREE wargame rules covering just about 
ANY topic you care to shake a die at.  I know there are some wargamers among 
the roleplayers here on the List, indeed the two groups are not mutually 
exclusive, and they will enjoy browsing this site.

     The link: http://www.freewargamesrules.co.uk/

     As a teaser, there are two sets of rules in the Science Fiction portion 
of the site dealing with GDW's other SF RPG, 2300AD.  One is "Star Crusier 
Lite", a set of rules that should allow SC fleet actions to take less than 
~143 hours to play.  The rules set reduces the very detailed SC ship control 
sheets and weapons rolls to a few numbers on a chit, something akin to what 
"Battle Rider" did with "Brilliant Lances" but perhaps more successfully.
     The other intriguing set allows 2300AD GMs and PCs to run operational 
level ground combat games.  Several representative units, from Earth's 
nations and the Kafer, are layed out along with the method for creating 
them.  Who hasn't itched to play out the attack in Operation Overlord on the 
Kafer's Dunkleheim(sp) Safe-Place?  While your PCs run through the RPG 
commando infiltration, you can also have them control the USMC assault on 
the self-same fortress.  Will the Pcs complete their mission in time to 
assist the Marines?  Will the Marines arrive in time to save the PCs?  
(insert maniacal GM laughter here)
     Many of the rules sets found there can be easily 'ported into Traveller 
campaigns.  Have fun!


ObTrav - In regards to the always-sputtering "best rules" debate, I'll 
borrow a line from Mr. Moffat-Vallance; "Horses for courses".  You pick and 
choose whichever bits are best for the needs of your campaign.  ForEx: 
trading campaigns will most likely use GT:FT, but merc campaigns can simply 
ignore that level of detail.  Everything should be a custom fit, designed to 
taste, and not simply "off the rack".  In that manner, the game is much more 
fun for GMs and PCs alike.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 08:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun May  5 07:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
References: <20020505003810.AF12C279D0@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003201c1f43d$baabfae0$dd5d8690@computer>

> From: Mark Urbin
> Hmmm...My preference in rules sets would probably run:
...
> MegaT dead last.

I dunno.  As a ruleset, MegaTypo was a good idea spoilt by poor execution.
I actually use its chargen these days, and I'm considering poaching part of
its combat system.  On the other hand, it's vehicle/ship design systems were
dubious even without the typoes that made them illegible.

As a setting:  again, a good idea was spoilt by poor execution.  Hard Times
came very close to redeeming it though.  In fact... how about support for
Hard Times settings!

I wouldn't object to support for MT, even non-Hard Times.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 08:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun May  5 07:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
References: <20020505081005.2BB34279CD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003301c1f43d$bb5b74c0$dd5d8690@computer>

From: Tod Glenn
> Don't you mean Passover?  Easter is the celebration of the resurrection of
> Jesus.  Passover is the Jewish holiday that falls near the same time and
> celebrates the escape from bondage in Egypt (and events leading up
> thereto).

Easter is the festival of an Anglo-Saxon fertility goddess, whose image was
a rabbit.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 08:02:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun May  5 07:02:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
References: <20020505081005.2BB34279CD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003401c1f43d$bbf284a0$dd5d8690@computer>

From: generalturokan@juno.com
> This is true for the US as well, along with a lot of counselling.

Yeah.  That would be a nasty job.  Unfortunately it would also involve being
political officer too, to some extent.  After all, you couldn't really tell
soldiers that the cause they were fighting for was unjust, could you?  You
would inevitably end up being morally compromised in favour of a secular
government.

> > From these analogies, we can work out the primary skill of Vilani
> chaplains:
> > Steward.
> >
>
> Nice one Alan :`)

Well, you couldn't expect me to miss an opportunity for a Vilani cannibalism
joke, could you?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 08:20:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith)
Date: Sun May  5 07:20:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
References: <20020505081005.2BB34279CD@mail.travellercentral.com> <003301c1f43d$bb5b74c0$dd5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <001101c1f43f$8f565000$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>

Easter is many thing, to many different, people.
Ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comic
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Hasty words


> From: Tod Glenn
> > Don't you mean Passover?  Easter is the celebration of the resurrection
of
> > Jesus.  Passover is the Jewish holiday that falls near the same time and
> > celebrates the escape from bondage in Egypt (and events leading up
> > thereto).
>
> Easter is the festival of an Anglo-Saxon fertility goddess, whose image
was
> a rabbit.
>
> Alan Bradley
> abradley1@bigpond.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 09:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun May  5 08:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
References: <20020505003810.AF12C279D0@mail.travellercentral.com> <003201c1f43d$baabfae0$dd5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <001801c1f446$20b8e200$dee993c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> ...
> > MegaT dead last.
>
> I dunno.  As a ruleset, MegaTypo was a good idea spoilt by poor execution.
> I actually use its chargen these days, and I'm considering poaching part
of
> its combat system.  On the other hand, it's vehicle/ship design systems
were
> dubious even without the typoes that made them illegible.
>
> As a setting:  again, a good idea was spoilt by poor execution.  Hard
Times
> came very close to redeeming it though.  In fact... how about support for
> Hard Times settings!
>
> I wouldn't object to support for MT, even non-Hard Times.


We're willing to publish materials for any Traveller setting or time period
(OTU only). Now, if someone wants to offer to write a LBB adventure series
set in the Hard Times, I'll be glad to hear from them.

If response is good enough, a full sourcebook would be a possibility, though
my practical head suggests a remote one....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 09:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun May  5 08:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <001101c1f43f$8f565000$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
References: <20020505081005.2BB34279CD@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <003301c1f43d$bb5b74c0$dd5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020505083420.009f0a60@mindspring.com>

At 10:17 AM 5/5/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Easter is many thing, to many different, people.

Generic spring re-birth festival.

ObTrav: Trying to explain spring festivals to the natives of a world with 
minimal axial tilt.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 09:40:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun May  5 08:40:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Anti-Imperial sentiments in the Imperium  (was: Tax
 on Science Fiction)
In-Reply-To: <000101c1f3b9$8b0a1e40$0f01a8c0@terry>
References: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHOEFMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020505082844.009f6150@mindspring.com>

At 05:17 PM 5/4/02 -0500, you wrote:
>How well do the Imperials tolerate dissenting views IYTU? Are they
>allowed to speak publicly to urge the overthrow of the Imperium? What
>hot buttons will get people watched by the Imperials and what is
>acceptable?

I think that given that wide range of cultures inside the Imperium that 
dissent needs to be tolerated. I don't think that it would extend to 
ranting on your soapbox about overthrowing the state.

Letting member states grumbling about the small stuff allows pressure to be 
released before it snowballs into a huge problem that explodes into 
rebellion. Individuals might get tagged for monitoring for any number of 
statements.. pro-psi, pro-Solomani, and unusual fondness for corndogs...

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 09:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun May  5 08:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
Message-ID: <20020505155119.3052B4511@mo110usjc.palm.net>

Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
__________
>> From: Mark Urbin 
>> Hmmm...My preference in rules sets would probably run: 
>... 
>> MegaT dead last. 
>I dunno.  As a ruleset, MegaTypo was a good idea spoilt by poor execution. 

Well support for the era, ruleset idependent would probably work.
As it's been poined out, the rule set is more than a bit cumbersome.

>I actually use its chargen these days, and I'm considering poaching part of 
>its combat system.  On the other hand, it's vehicle/ship design systems were 
>dubious even without the typoes that made them illegible. 
>As a setting:  again, a good idea was spoilt by poor execution.  Hard Times 
>came very close to redeeming it though.  In fact... how about support for 
>Hard Times settings! 

Hard Times was great. Probably the best thing GDW put out for MegaT.
The MegaT stuff I really like is being held hostage by he shall not be named without spitting.

>I wouldn't object to support for MT, even non-Hard Times. 

Era stuff, sure. Support for a ruleset not in print...Not a good business plan IMO.
 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 10:08:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sun May  5 09:08:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Flaming Trolls
In-Reply-To: <3CD3E8B4.17CF6B99@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHOEJECHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

Like Ja Ja Binks?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of alan spik
> Sent: Saturday, 04 May, 2002 09:57
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Flaming Trolls
> 
> 
> Daniel Tacit wrote:
> 
> > >
> > > What NPC's do you have in your Traveller Universe
> > > that
> > > are either (a) simply there to be obnoxious, or (b)
> > > irritatingly humorous.  I'm thinking of people like
> > > the Joe Pesci(sp) character from the Leathal Weapon
> > > movies.
> > I have  Instellarms representatives  that hang out on
> > the more lawless worlds and try to peddle hardware.
> > They dress in period clothing, my current one dresses
> > in early 1900's British army fatigues(jungle warfare I
> > think)travels via grav belt and is always at hand when
> > things get hairy.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> > http://health.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> Whirrs. Click. Alan busily files serial numbers and presents his players
> with a NEW idea.
> 
> 
> --
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
>                                -Thomas Jefferson
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 10:09:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sun May  5 09:09:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CD3E6A7.F1027DDD@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAEJFCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> Unfortunately asking such a person politely seldom works. I would
> suggest a short hiatus for Mr. Sears, enforced by the listmom. I hear
> enough of this language on the job.
> 
> 
Your assumptions about me are bias and incorrect.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 10:11:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun May  5 09:11:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
In-Reply-To: <20020504.151252.-125827.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020505083755.009f7c50@mindspring.com>

At 03:11 PM 5/4/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I remember my first Sunday in Basic Training being marched into chapel,
>listening to boredom [as a Christian] being marched out, and telling my
>DI "thanks, but no thanks." I didn't go back.

I, along with all the other non-christians, sat at the back of the San Hill 
Chapel and listened to a short speech by the chaplain outlining the 
spiritual services avalible to trainees. We then sat and watched with 
amusment as 200+ young men from every variant of Christianity known to man 
tried to follow a non-denominational service.

One thing struck me as very odd.  On one wall there was a mural of the 
usual Aryan Jesus (light brown hair, blue eyes, rather un-Middle Eastern in 
apperance.) He was carrying a huge banner that read "Follow Me" which is 
the motto of the US Infantry.  Whatever happened to "blessed are the 
peacemakers"?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 10:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun May  5 09:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
Message-ID: <200205051612.g45GCuV29747@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

...
>Please fill out forms 57aT3/b and 6901c with your accusations.  Please name 
>any other so-called Citizens you feel may be traitors.  All accusations 
>should be considered anonymous.

  Anonymous! Then how do I get my Commendation Points?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 10:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sun May  5 09:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
In-Reply-To: <200205032249.g43Mn8R22026@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGEJFCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> 
> >From: "Shawn R Sears" <ShawnSears@telocity.com>
> >Subject: RE: [TML] Re: RAH and libertarianism
> ...
> >> transportation. In the U.S. public transport, be it Amtrak or 
> local public
> >> transport the critics always complain that it must pay for 
> itself. In the
> >> states most places don't have public transport because the claim
> >> is that it must pay for itself.
> >
> >Everyone benefits from the use of roads and rails.
> 
>   So? What, are you some kind of commie fellow Traveller?
> 

Actually I'm for 0% income taxes.
You took my reply out of context.

I have received several polite requests to drop this thread.
Please let it die.

-Shawn-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 10:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun May  5 09:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
References: <20020505155119.3052B4511@mo110usjc.palm.net>
Message-ID: <001f01c1f456$1c0ccbd0$d9e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Era stuff, sure. Support for a ruleset not in print...Not a good business
plan IMO.
>
>

Quite. I meant setting, not rules. We have some of our own....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 11:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Martin Hardgrave)
Date: Sun May  5 10:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Rank hath its privelige
In-Reply-To: <20020503190107.BFE38279C6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5D5tkBACLX18Ew2T@deira.demon.co.uk>

In message <20020503190107.BFE38279C6@mail.travellercentral.com>, tml-
request@travellercentral.com writes
>Message: 1
>Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 14:45:39 -0400
>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Concerns
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>MJ Dougherty says
>>A noble's most powerful weapon is his finger...
>>
>>"Captain, shoot that man...."
>
>"Pot that fellow..."
>________________

Dr Who, "The Daemons"

Brigadier: "Corporal - the little chap with wings - five rounds rapid".
-- 
Martin Hardgrave

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 12:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Sun May  5 11:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Unintended Consequences
In-Reply-To: <3CD46F48.31623.9EDC67@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020505183238.75740.qmail@web13304.mail.yahoo.com>

--- shadowcat <res053z0@gte.net> wrote:
> what a way to go... still sounds like a real pisser
> though
> and the GM left flushed with his victory?
> 

*Groan*

Yes, it was pretty bad. When younger players get their
PCs killed off through poor luck, I share that story.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 14:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun May  5 13:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
Message-ID: <200205052042.FSA01230@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>One thing struck me as very odd.  On one wall there was a 
>mural of the usual Aryan Jesus (light brown hair, blue eyes, 
>rather un-Middle Eastern in apperance.) He was carrying a 
>huge banner that read "Follow Me" which is the motto of the 
>US Infantry.  Whatever happened to "blessed are the 
>peacemakers"?
>

I suppose you remember the chaplain at Airborne School, with 
his rousing tale of the first airborne operation in Biblical 
history?
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 15:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun May  5 14:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020505083420.009f0a60@mindspring.com>
References: <20020505081005.2BB34279CD@mail.travellercentral.com> <003301c1f43d$bb5b74c0$dd5d8690@computer> <001101c1f43f$8f565000$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020505083420.009f0a60@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020506071442.A17256@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> ObTrav: Trying to explain spring festivals to the natives of a world
> with minimal axial tilt.

Can't be any worse than explaining spring festivals that *really*
occur in autumn :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 15:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May  5 14:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
Message-ID: <20020505.142658.-186139.7.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 05 May 2002 08:42:01 -0700 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> At 03:11 PM 5/4/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >I remember my first Sunday in Basic Training being marched into 
chapel,listening to boredom [as a Christian] being marched out, and 
telling myDI "thanks, but no thanks." I didn't go back.
> 
> I, along with all the other non-christians, sat at the back of the  San
Hill 
> Chapel and listened to a short speech by the chaplain outlining the 
> spiritual services avalible to trainees. We then sat and watched 
> with  amusment as 200+ young men from every variant of Christianity
known 
> to man  tried to follow a non-denominational service.

Same service, just Ft. Ord. That's why I didn't go back!

Chaplain Bari

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 15:30:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May  5 14:30:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
Message-ID: <20020505.142658.-186139.5.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 6 May 2002 00:03:32 +1000 "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
writes:
> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> > This is true for the US as well, along with a lot of counselling.
> 
> Yeah.  That would be a nasty job.

Only to someone "NOT" called into that field of work.

>  Unfortunately it would also  involve being political officer too, to
some extent.  After all, you couldn't  really tell soldiers that the
cause they were fighting for was unjust, could  you?  

Yes, a political officer indeed, but bound by a code of conduct from the
military I'd be in, or I shouldn't be in the military.
.
I was often confronted with the issue of being a Christian vs. an expert
rifleman (by US Army standards), not an easy answer. I came up with ---

 "I've trained to be an expert, I will aim to kill if need be, once I
pull the trigger it's up to the God I serve to make the impact a wound or
a kill."

> Well, you couldn't expect me to miss an opportunity for a Vilani 
cannibalism joke, could you?

Nope.

I think the Zhodani should be the Chaplains though.

But the Vargr or Hivers - never!

Chaplain Bari


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 15:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May  5 14:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <000901c1f34d$43f8e160$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503114632.00b817e0@urbin.net>
 <m3pu0dym82.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <001701c1f2e8$f53db140$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <m3heloy91m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <000901c1f34d$43f8e160$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <m33cx6uvks.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>
> > I don't like it either--that's why I prefer the rapier.
> 
> Of which of the many, many designs, just out of interest?  Some are
> simply smallswords with an edge.  Some are light broadswords.  Some
> are very odd, like those German and Itlaian -handed thrusting-only
> rapiers for people who really wanted a pike.

Something more than a smallsword, something less than a `broadsword'
(whatever is meant by that--another overloaded word).  In other words,
diamond cross-section, no cup hilt, fairly light, focusing on the
thrust but able to cut.  I don't care for triangular blades; cup hilts
are ugly when of sufficient size and useless when attractively
diminutive; heavy blades have too much intertia; I prefer to
thrust--only need to get a few inches in to poke, not the
nearly-a-foot a cut requires.

Of course, blades and styles evolve to correct the deficiencies in the
prevailing style, so I'm sure that a smallsword is in many ways
superior to a rapier.  Doesn't mean I have to like it:-)

> > Besides, does it make sense to use a word meaning `harmless
> > practice weapon' for `deadly dueling blade'?
> 
> Words drift in their meaning.  By the C57, the term had changed, I
> suppose.

I meant in current English.  In the 3I they speak Galanglic, and it is
no doubt nearly incomprehensible to us.  The books are written in
English as She is Spoke (Now); I'd have corrected the earlier error.
But, as I've noted, I'm a pedant:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
It's better to have a weapon and not need it than to need a weapon and
not have it.                                     --Sir Clarence Worley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 15:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May  5 14:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <013e01c1f31d$308af9e0$52200050@matt>
References: <200205031903.FOC06356@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <m3bsbwzzzr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <3CD309E6.3000802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <m34rhoy8kr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <013e01c1f31d$308af9e0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <m3wuuitghq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Matthew Bond" <mattgbond@ntlworld.com> writes:
>
> > It being Good Friday, I must repeat the ancient question, `What is
> > truth?'
> 
> Wasn't that a month ago?

Not for us Orthodox.  We calculate the date slightly differently
(Pascha[1] must fall after Passover) and on a different calendar (the
Julian, since not everyone can agree to use to calendar promulgated in
the 20s by Constantinople and since adopted by Antioch and, I think,
Alexandria[2], and we'd like to preserve unity in the celebration of
the greatest of feasts).  Sometimes they're on the same day (as last
year) and sometimes rather distantly seperated (as this year).

It has its advantages.  You get Easter candy dirt cheap.  And it's
also nice to be able to celebrate one's holy days apart from the
secular world's holidays.  Don't get me started about the way
Christmas is handled in popular culture...

[1] Pascha from Heb. Pesach, Passover.  More appropriate that Easter,
    which is from the name of a Saxon goddess and, I believe,
    etymologically related to Astarte.  Although Easter works in a
    kind of `so there!' way...

[2] Which is _not_ the Gregorian calendar, and is in fact more
    accurate, although this does come into play for either 3,000 or
    30,000 years.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Anesti!  Alithos Anesti!     | Christus Resurrexit!  Vere Resurrexit!
Kristos Voskrese!  Voistinu Voskrese! | Al masih qam!  Hakan qa'am!
       Kristus ist Auferstanden!  Sicherlich ist Auferstanden!
                 Christ is Risen!  Truly He is Risen!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 15:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May  5 14:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205051048540.20035-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205051048540.20035-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <m3sn56tgdk.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:
> 
> Well, the last time _I_ checked, Jesus came to Jerusalem during the
> Easter.

Passover.  Easter is from Eoster, a Saxon goddess last I checked.  I'm
not certain why the name was picked up by missionaries in England but
not most elsewhere in Europe (it's some variation on Pascha in most
languages, right?).

> (And yes, a couple of my Jewish friends celebrated Easter just a few
> weeks ago.  As a Jewish holiday.)

I'm supposing that they celebrated Passover, and in Finnish the words
are the same, but your dictionary lists Easter as the English
translation.

ObTrav: It's easy.  The linguistic slip-ups can cause wars, after
all...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You see, in the post-televisual world we read.  --John Gipson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 15:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun May  5 14:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503114632.00b817e0@urbin.net><m3pu0dym82.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><001701c1f2e8$f53db140$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k><m3heloy91m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><000901c1f34d$43f8e160$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <m33cx6uvks.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <001a01c1f47e$f589f400$a1e893c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>>
> Of course, blades and styles evolve to correct the deficiencies in the
> prevailing style, so I'm sure that a smallsword is in many ways
> superior to a rapier.  Doesn't mean I have to like it:-)

Smallswords evolved mainly as something to wear that was still a basic
self-defence weapon but didn't destroy your clothes and trip you up like a
rapier did.

>
> > > Besides, does it make sense to use a word meaning `harmless
> > > practice weapon' for `deadly dueling blade'?
> >
> > Words drift in their meaning.  By the C57, the term had changed, I
> > suppose.
>
> I meant in current English.  In the 3I they speak Galanglic, and it is
> no doubt nearly incomprehensible to us.  The books are written in
> English as She is Spoke (Now); I'd have corrected the earlier error.
> But, as I've noted, I'm a pedant:-)


You are. I'd noticed (grin)

Would this disagreement result in a duel if t'were allowed? I suspect not,
since we both actually know what swords can do to a human being.

I, too, prefer the thrust to the cut. Though I'm not adverse to bashing with
the hilt, kneeing etc.

OBTRAV: How formal are Traveller duels? Real ones were often very scrappy
and involved much wrestling, etc.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 15:53:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May  5 14:53:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
Message-ID: <20020505.145148.-186139.8.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 5 May 2002 16:42:06 -0400 "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
writes:
> 
> I suppose you remember the chaplain at Airborne School, with 
> his rousing tale of the first airborne operation in Biblical 
> history?

All right now, I wasn't Airborne - tell me :~)

Chaplain Bari

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 15:54:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May  5 14:54:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
Message-ID: <20020505.145148.-186139.9.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 6 May 2002 07:14:42 +1000 Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> Douglas Berry wrote:
> > ObTrav: Trying to explain spring festivals to the natives of a  world
> > with minimal axial tilt.
> 
> Can't be any worse than explaining spring festivals that *really*
> occur in autumn :)

True, true.

I also have Biblical proof that Jesus was born + or - 15 days either side
of July 1st.

ObTrav:
With all of the varied orbital days with all of the inhabited worlds and
moons throughout the galaxy, hundreds or thousands of key dates could get
lost once off world. We have a hard enough time on earth. I hope record
keeping will improve once we colonize our system, or were going to be in
big trouble beyond.


Chaplain Bari


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May  5 15:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <DAV56zsHodJg8F9202800004a01@hotmail.com>
References: <memo.131912@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV56zsHodJg8F9202800004a01@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3n0vetfso.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@msn.com> writes:
>
> As a bit of information, the reason Passover and Easter occur around the
> same time is because the Last Supper was a Passover Sedar.

Yep.

> The bread he passed around was matzoh.

Actually, and surprisingly, no.  In the Greek Gospels (Greek being the
language they were all written in, 'cept maybe Matthew) the word used
is arton (leavened bread) not azymos (unleavened bread).
Cf. <http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/j4j-2000/html/library/bookreviews/ChristinthePassover.html>
(an anti-Christian work, but one which admits this fact).  Hence the
Church--in all places but one--has used leavened bread for Communion.

As to why Rome, alone among patriarchates, chose unleavened, I've not
the slightest idea, really.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own
good, in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of
theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it.        --John Stuart Mill

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May  5 15:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Colichemarde
In-Reply-To: <20020504080620.58F3E279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020504080620.58F3E279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3it62tfp3.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> writes:
>
> So, what would you call a sword that maintained the width near the
> hilt od the colichemarde all the way down to the point?

A rapier.  Or possibly, depending on the width, grip and other
factors, some other variety.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What parts of "shall make no law", "shall not be infringed", and "shall
not be violated" don't you understand?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May  5 15:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Colichemarde
In-Reply-To: <20020505043100.3C0FE279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020505043100.3C0FE279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3elgqtfk7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> writes:
>
> But only if it was pretty long, right? If it was under a meter, it
> appears to me (admittedly a non-sword person) that it would be a lot
> like a marine/navy dress sword.   

The U.S. Navy Sword is, I believe, considered a rapier, only with
rebated (foiled) edges.  The Marine Mamluke sword is, IIRC, a sabre.
Although I think it bears a certain resemblance to a tulwar.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Burning books is _wrong_.  So we shot them instead.
 --Graham Clark on Dianetics and Battlefield Earth

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun May  5 15:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <20020505.145148.-186139.9.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEIMDPAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> > ObTrav: Trying to explain spring festivals to the natives of a  world
>> > with minimal axial tilt.
>>
>> Can't be any worse than explaining spring festivals that *really*
>> occur in autumn :)
>
>True, true.
>
>I also have Biblical proof that Jesus was born + or - 15 days either side
>of July 1st.
>
>ObTrav:
>With all of the varied orbital days with all of the inhabited worlds and
>moons throughout the galaxy, hundreds or thousands of key dates could get
>lost once off world. We have a hard enough time on earth. I hope record
>keeping will improve once we colonize our system, or were going to be in
>big trouble beyond.
>
>
>Chaplain Bari

Which is why Cleon created the Office of Calendar Compliance and why
acceptance of the Imperial Calendar was a prerequisite for membership in the
Third Imperium. In order to be able to both do business and run a government
administration a common dating system was required.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:13:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May  5 15:13:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CD3E6A7.F1027DDD@mindspring.com>
References: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHOEFMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
 <024801c1f2ad$7d8d22b0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <3CD3E6A7.F1027DDD@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3adretfb2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> Unfortunately asking such a person politely seldom works. I would
> suggest a short hiatus for Mr. Sears, enforced by the listmom.

Ah, so you are an advocate of silencing those with whom you disagree,
or who express their opinions in a matter of which you do not approve?
Charming.  Germany's due east; you might prefer it there.  If you run
out of gas, there's always France.

> I hear enough of this language on the job.

Then you should be used to it.

I don't approve of his manner of posting either, FWIW.  The killfile
and the `D' key are excellent tools.  They remove someone from one's
own sphere while still allowing him to speak his piece to others.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
_Money_ is gold.  Fiats are green.  --Bryan J. Maloney

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May  5 15:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <001601c1f38d$5380e8e0$a2e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8F959CE.59A05%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <001601c1f38d$5380e8e0$a2e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <m36622teoy.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> In the 57th century, that weapon is known as a Foil.  That's all
> there is to it.

  In the 57th century, that weapon is known as a Parl.  That's all
  there is to it.

What I mean is this: that which is theoretically spoken in A.D. 5700
will not be anything like modern English.  Heck, less time has passed
between `Sum swythe gelaered munuc com suthan ofer sae fram Sancte
Benedictes stowe' and now than from now to then.  About five times as
many years.  In that time the language will change so as to be
incomprehensible.

Therefor, `foil' is almost certainly _not_ a word which will survive
that time unchanged.  Thus it is a word used--in error--in an older
Traveller book.

The sentence means `A certain very learned monk came south over the
sea from St. Benedict's place,' and is _almost_ comprehensible.  For
true incomprehensibility, try the contemporaneous (later, actually)
`Hwaet we Gar-Deana in geardagum, theocyningathrym gefrunon, hu tha
athelingas ellen fremedon!'

That's English too, and resembles modern English far more than 57th
c. Galanglic would.

I could just as well use the word brocc today to refer to a rat, when
in the 9th century it meant a badger.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I don't jog.  It makes the ice jump right out of my gin & tonic.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:32:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May  5 15:32:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205050122560.30975-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205050122560.30975-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <m31ycqteez.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> 
> Judging by historical examples (well, historical fictional
> examples--or would that be fictional historical examples?), the
> right to refuse a challenge was the right to chose between being
> killed outright and being ruined.  Some choice.

It's still a very real choice.  One chooses based on one's priorities,
just as anyone else does.

And remember that the challenged typically gets various advantages
(choice of weapons, location &c.).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Whenever you walk by a computer and see someone using pico, be kind.
Pause for a second and remind yourself that: `There, but for the grace
of God, go I.'                                           --Harley Hahn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun May  5 15:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <m3sn56tgdk.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205051048540.20035-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <3CD65CBB.7000.556820@localhost>

On 5 May 2002 at 15:49, Robert Uhl wrote:

> "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:
> > 
> > Well, the last time _I_ checked, Jesus came to Jerusalem during the
> > Easter.
> 
> Passover.  Easter is from Eoster, a Saxon goddess last I checked.  I'm
> not certain why the name was picked up by missionaries in England but
> not most elsewhere in Europe (it's some variation on Pascha in most
> languages, right?).

Probably because of the early church's tactic of hijacking local names 
and feasts for their own so that barely converted heathens would 
observe the christian version. That way after a few generations the old 
feast is lost and only the christian one remains.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:38:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun May  5 15:38:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <001a01c1f47e$f589f400$a1e893c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8FB021A.59D6F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/5/02 2:50 PM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

> 
> Would this disagreement result in a duel if t'were allowed? I suspect not,
> since we both actually know what swords can do to a human being.
> 
> I, too, prefer the thrust to the cut. Though I'm not adverse to bashing with
> the hilt, kneeing etc.
> 
> OBTRAV: How formal are Traveller duels? Real ones were often very scrappy
> and involved much wrestling, etc.

I think most people have in mind the formal duel as outlines in the "Code
Duelo" and related 'rules' of dueling, as opposed to less formal 'sword
fights' that are no9 more than brawls with weapons.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:40:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May  5 15:40:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Holidays (was Re: Hasty words)
In-Reply-To: <i4cadu08jma9qvkvsebrlvl6fc0d2964v3@4ax.com>
References: <20020505081005.2BB34279CD@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <i4cadu08jma9qvkvsebrlvl6fc0d2964v3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <m3wuuirzic.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:
>
> "Not if you're Orthodox" would normally be interpreted as referring to
> membership in one of the Eastern Rite churches that ultimately look to the
> Patriarch of Constantinople as the First Among Equals (though not
> exercising as much control over the various national Churches as the Bishop
> of Rome claims over the Western Rite Church).

He doesn't exercise _any_ control over any other patriarchate.  His is
a primacy of honour more than anything else, as it used to be for
Rome, and was--still earlier--for Jerusalem.  Indeed, patriarchs don't
even exercise a whole lot of control, technically, over their
subordinate metropolitans (read: cardinals), archbishops and bishops.
About the most they can do is sever communion (synods of all the
aforementioned, and their big brothers--councils--can do more).  But
technical limits and actual limits are different things.

It's an odd sort of arrangement, but it's been working since 33, so
there's gotta be something to it.  It's part of why I see the 3I
working, as a matter of fact.  There are certain similarities,
although the 3I has more in the way of central control.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
"Oh bother," said the Borg, "We've assimilated Pooh."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:42:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun May  5 15:42:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Colichemarde
In-Reply-To: <m3elgqtfk7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B8FB0337.59D73%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/5/02 3:06 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> 
> The U.S. Navy Sword is, I believe, considered a rapier, only with
> rebated (foiled) edges.  The Marine Mamluke sword is, IIRC, a sabre.
> Although I think it bears a certain resemblance to a tulwar.

The saber traditionally descends from the curved eastern sword of Turkish
and North African origin, and came by way of the light cavalry of Hungary
and environs, IIRC.  The Mamluke sword originates in North Africa directly.
So one might argue that the Marine sword is, in fact not a saber, but rather
the precursor to the saber.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:43:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun May  5 15:43:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <m31ycqteez.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205050122560.30975-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3CD65D8F.27918.58A116@localhost>

On 5 May 2002 at 16:31, Robert Uhl wrote:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> > 
> > Judging by historical examples (well, historical fictional
> > examples--or would that be fictional historical examples?), the
> > right to refuse a challenge was the right to chose between being
> > killed outright and being ruined.  Some choice.
> 
> It's still a very real choice.  One chooses based on one's priorities,
> just as anyone else does.
> 
> And remember that the challenged typically gets various advantages
> (choice of weapons, location &c.).

Only in some codes. IIRC that's the English tradition - on the 
Continent the challenger got to choose.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:45:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun May  5 15:45:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020505083420.009f0a60@mindspring.com>
References: <001101c1f43f$8f565000$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
 <20020505081005.2BB34279CD@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <003301c1f43d$bb5b74c0$dd5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020505174237.00923970@minn.net>

At 08:35 AM 5/5/2002 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 10:17 AM 5/5/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>Easter is many thing, to many different, people.
>
>Generic spring re-birth festival.
>
>ObTrav: Trying to explain spring festivals to the natives of a world with 
>minimal axial tilt.

"Your world has a tilted axis? How can you live on it?"


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May  5 15:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <3CD65CBB.7000.556820@localhost>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205051048540.20035-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
 <3CD65CBB.7000.556820@localhost>
Message-ID: <m3r8kqrz6g.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
>
> Probably because of the early church's tactic of hijacking local names 
> and feasts for their own so that barely converted heathens would 
> observe the christian version.

That's not as true in the East.  For example, there is no harvest-time
observance of any kind (with the exception of the 1 September new
year--but that's simply a relic of Roman law); Halloween doesn't exist
(or rather, All Saint's is a week after Pentecost).  The date of
Christmas was a) anciently derived from research and b) fits in with
the lambing season, when the lambs slaughtered at Passover are born.
In fact, I cannot think of any feast on the Eastern calendar which is
a cover for an older pagan one.  I could very well be wrong, of
course.

And there are always pagan practices which survived.  The Domostroi (a
Russian book, c. 17th cent.) has many references to many paganisms
which survived among the people.  The conversion of a people is not
something which happens overnight.  I have a pet theory that it takes
about a thousand years.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Violence is the last resort of the incompetent.  The competent, of
course, make it their _first_ resort.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:48:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun May  5 15:48:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Colichemarde
References: <B8FB0337.59D73%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1f486$a9d8fe90$749793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> The saber traditionally descends from the curved eastern sword of Turkish
> and North African origin, and came by way of the light cavalry of Hungary
> and environs, IIRC.

These were the Housas, armed with the Shashka (= Hussar/Sabre)

The Mamluke sword originates in North Africa directly.
> So one might argue that the Marine sword is, in fact not a saber, but
rather
> the precursor to the saber.
> --



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:50:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun May  5 15:50:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <B8FB021A.59D6F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c1f486$c6ae6f00$749793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> > OBTRAV: How formal are Traveller duels? Real ones were often very
scrappy
> > and involved much wrestling, etc.
>
> I think most people have in mind the formal duel as outlines in the "Code
> Duelo" and related 'rules' of dueling, as opposed to less formal 'sword
> fights' that are no9 more than brawls with weapons.
>

Most formal duels fought under controlled conditions still involved brawling
type actions.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:53:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May  5 15:53:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <001a01c1f47e$f589f400$a1e893c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503114632.00b817e0@urbin.net>
 <m3pu0dym82.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <001701c1f2e8$f53db140$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <m3heloy91m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <000901c1f34d$43f8e160$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <m33cx6uvks.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <001a01c1f47e$f589f400$a1e893c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <m3n0veryyr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>
> Would this disagreement result in a duel if t'were allowed?  I
> suspect not, since we both actually know what swords can do to a
> human being.

I doubt it as well, although not for your reason.  It's not something
which merits life-or-death combat.  Or even the risk of injury.  It's
not as though one of us is calling the other a liar or something.
It's just a disagreement.  My pomposity falls somewhat short of
desiring death for all who disagree with me:-)

As for the damage a sword can do one, I cannot say it figures with me.
I wouldn't attack someone who doesn't deserve it.  And I've three
brothers and no wife, children or other dependents, so the damage it
does _me_ is no big deal.  Unless it's of the nasty, tear-one-up,
leave-one-living sort.  After studying WWI, my feeling is definitely
that it's better to be dead than wounded.  *shiver*

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone.  "I wonder where
Bob got the plutonium" is better than most get.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:55:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun May  5 15:55:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <m3r8kqrz6g.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3CD65CBB.7000.556820@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CD660FE.19135.660CA1@localhost>

On 5 May 2002 at 16:45, Robert Uhl wrote:

> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> >
> > Probably because of the early church's tactic of hijacking local names 
> > and feasts for their own so that barely converted heathens would 
> > observe the christian version.
> 
> That's not as true in the East.  For example, there is no harvest-time
> observance of any kind (with the exception of the 1 September new
> year--but that's simply a relic of Roman law); Halloween doesn't exist
> (or rather, All Saint's is a week after Pentecost).  The date of
> Christmas was a) anciently derived from research and b) fits in with
> the lambing season, when the lambs slaughtered at Passover are born.
> In fact, I cannot think of any feast on the Eastern calendar which is
> a cover for an older pagan one.  I could very well be wrong, of
> course.

I was talking about the name Easter in England, and thus the Roman 
(Western) church. And across northern and western Europe Christmas 
happens to overlay Yuletide, which was a major feast.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:57:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun May  5 15:57:17 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
In-Reply-To: <20020503.165654.-185223.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20505.153452.1e3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> First, would someone with a 1d6 please roll out the number for me please?
> I don't have a computerized die roller.

If you are running Windows, you do.

Dig out your Win98 CD. in \TOOLS\OLDMSDOS you'll find QBASIC.EXE and
QBASIC.HLP. 

Copy them to someplace on the path. 

Then run QBASIC. 

You can write a program, or just type in:

print Int(rnd(1)*6)+1

Then hit shift-F5 and you'll have your die roll.

That'll do you until you dig up a BASIC program. Or write one.

If you decide you want to write stuff in BASIC, go to
www.powerbasic.com and grab a copy of FirstBasic. It's usable without
paying, but it's a bit more usable if you pay (you get the help files).

I forget what it costs, but it's cheap.

And if you decide you are into programming you can get PowerBasic or
some other compiler that'll make Windows programs.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun May  5 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <B8F959CE.59A05%webmaster@travellercentral.com><001601c1f38d$5380e8e0$a2e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <m36622teoy.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <003001c1f488$050de1d0$749793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

----- Original Message -----
From: <ruhl@4dv.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons


> "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > In the 57th century, that weapon is known as a Foil.  That's all
> > there is to it.
>
>   In the 57th century, that weapon is known as a Parl.  That's all
>   there is to it.
>> Therefor, `foil' is almost certainly _not_ a word which will survive
> that time unchanged.  Thus it is a word used--in error--in an older
> Traveller book.
.

What I meant was that "Marc Miller* decided that in his modern-day English
Language game Traveller, which is about spacefaring adventuring in the 57th
century, the word that would represent a kind of weapon that was a kind of
light cut and thrust sword would be *Foil*. And since it is enshrined in the
very first book of the very first edition, subsequent versions have kept the
name."

Of course, the future will not look like Traveller, the language spoken will
not be English nor  recognisable to us, Jump drive does not exist etc etc.

Therefore: Marc made some stuff up. He called one bit of what he made up a
Foil. To change the name 25 years later seems a bit daft. If we start there,
let's also rename Meson guns, write the entire book in Galanglic, chuck out
the TL system because it's not accurate... where do we stop?

We can accept Jump drive and manipulative starfish-like aliens. It's not so
hard to accept that a word for a practice weapon came to be used commonly
for a real weapon that resembled it.

MJD

* Or Loren, or Frank, or some other qualification that I just can't be
bothered to type out. But you know what I mean,.








From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 17:04:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun May  5 16:04:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503114632.00b817e0@urbin.net><m3pu0dym82.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><001701c1f2e8$f53db140$fb9593c3@youra7emtd0v3k><m3heloy91m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><000901c1f34d$43f8e160$6b9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k><m33cx6uvks.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><001a01c1f47e$f589f400$a1e893c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <m3n0veryyr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <004701c1f488$fc5dcd60$749793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

Subject: Re: [TML] Concerns


> "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > Would this disagreement result in a duel if t'were allowed?  I
> > suspect not, since we both actually know what swords can do to a
> > human being.
>
> I doubt it as well, although not for your reason.  It's not something
> which merits life-or-death combat.  Or even the risk of injury.  It's
> not as though one of us is calling the other a liar or something.
> It's just a disagreement.  My pomposity falls somewhat short of
> desiring death for all who disagree with me:-)

Heh, mine too. KNowing how much damage can be done is gives one a certainr
eluctance to enter comba over trifles. All the same, it'd be an elegant way
to solve a debate, though I can see that raising some issues in the
Scienfiic community ("Henceforth all theories much account for the fact that
the Earth is FLAT, as proven by by the duel between Inquisitor Montoya and
Porfessor Galileo...")

>
> As for the damage a sword can do one, I cannot say it figures with me.
> I wouldn't attack someone who doesn't deserve it.  And I've three
> brothers and no wife, children or other dependents, so the damage it
> does _me_ is no big deal.  Unless it's of the nasty, tear-one-up,
> leave-one-living sort.  After studying WWI, my feeling is definitely
> that it's better to be dead than wounded.  *shiver*

As a self-defence instructor, and carrying a few injuries gained mainly
stupidly and away from combat, I have a different perspective. Fighting,
even if you win, is a bad thing and to be avoided. Fighting over trifles
seems completely stupid, especially when lethal weapons are involved.

I have, sadly, had to completely demolish someone who wanted to fight, but
I'd really, really rather not.

MJD




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 17:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun May  5 16:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
Message-ID: <009001c1f48b$12047cc0$9c5d8690@computer>

From: Douglas Berry
> One thing struck me as very odd.  On one wall there was a mural of the
> usual Aryan Jesus (light brown hair, blue eyes, rather un-Middle Eastern
> in apperance.) He was carrying a huge banner that read "Follow Me" which
> is the motto of the US Infantry.  Whatever happened to "blessed are the
> peacemakers"?

Umm... the Emperor Constantine?

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if violence between Christian sects wasn't
the first type of "warfare" indulged in by Christians.  Their sectarianism
was one of the things that made them targets for repression.

The Aryan Jesus is a laugh, isn't it?  But of course you couldn't expect him
to be represented as looking like a Crazy Ay-rab Terrorist(TM).

Oh, and for an OBTRAV:  I was wrong when I suggested that Vilani chaplains
had Steward skill.  They actually have Carousing.  Under MT this can be used
instead of Steward at one level lower, so it covers a chaplain's talking to
people duties, as well as their other ones.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 17:16:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun May  5 16:16:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
Message-ID: <008e01c1f48b$10c59420$9c5d8690@computer>

From: "Joseph Elric Smith"
> Easter is many thing, to many different, people.

I was being "clever".  The _name_ Easter is derived from that of an old
pagan goddess called Eastre, Oestre, and other variations on this theme.
Her festival happened to be around the same time as all the other (northern
hemisphere) spring religious festivals, and was appropriated by the
Christians.  This was by a process similar to how the festivals of the
Unconquered Sun (Sol Invictus) and Mithras, both of which took place on the
25th of December, became the Christian "Christmas".  Christmas has absorbed
many other pagan festivals since, including the worship of a character from
a Coca-Cola ad!  (How Vilani is that!)

Languages other than English often have names for "Easter" that aren't
derived from the practices of English paganism, for some obscure reason.

OBTRAV:  It's Holiday Sale time at Makhidkarun's.  All your favourite
corporate logoes will be there:  Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Jesus,
Buddha, L. Ron Hubbard....  Ho ho ho!  Instellarms and the Monty Haul Tavern
will be open all night...

Oh, and finally:  obviously the Easter Bunny should be female.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 17:17:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun May  5 16:17:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
Message-ID: <008f01c1f48b$11644520$9c5d8690@computer>

> From: "MJ Dougherty"
> Quite. I meant setting, not rules. We have some of our own....

True.  Of course you might want to have MT stats in an MT setting product,
as well as T20 stats.

Incidentally, I was thinking about the idea of a "Traveller Lite" that
someone suggested the other day.  The problem would be which version would
be "Lited".  Presumably the product would be produced by one or other of the
companies currently producing Traveller versions, so that means it would be
either T20 or GT.  SJGames already has Gurps Lite, so T20 seems most likely.
Of course, since CT is being reprinted, it could be done for it, but it
doesn't seem very likely.

To keep a "Traveller Lite" within manageable limits, it would be necessary
to trim it horribly.  What might work would be a combination of
description/advertising with a simple scenario, with pregenerated characters
and a step by step guide to refereeing it.  If the scenario took place on a
ship, you could even build in the concept of actually travelling between
worlds, rather than just setting a scenario on a particular world.

It couldn't be a ruleset, even of a massively cut down kind.  There's just
too much there.  You couldn't do worldgen, chargen, or space combat.  You'd
be lucky to explain the basics of combat and tasks, plus of course, the
basics of the setting:  why you would want to play _this_ game.

So it would have to be an extended ad, plus an example scenario.  That's my
opinion, anyway.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 17:18:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun May  5 16:18:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Wargame Rules: slightly OT, plus a link...
References: <20020505190108.1E6B6279CE@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <009101c1f48b$129a0600$9c5d8690@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      The link: http://www.freewargamesrules.co.uk/

A very big "what he said" here.  This is a great site.  Most of the stuff on
it is nothing special, but there are some gems.

Some of the interesting ones:
"Is This Just Another Bug Hunt" (in the Science Fiction section).  It should
be pretty obvious what this is about!

"Dinky Dau" (in the Modern section).  Really really short Vietnam rules -
add high-tech gear to make them Traveller.

"Quiet Ugly Men" (in the Modern section).  Campaign system for Vietnam - add
high-tech gear to make it Traveller.

"Jungle" (in the 19th Century section).  Silly colonial rules. Just because,
or at least it might be inspirational.

"The Splendid Little War" (in the 19th Century section).  Spanish-American
War.  Just because.

There are lots I haven't listed, but the ones above are the ones I like
most.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 17:20:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun May  5 16:20:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <m31ycqteez.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B8FB0B29.59D82%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/5/02 3:31 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>> 
>> Judging by historical examples (well, historical fictional
>> examples--or would that be fictional historical examples?), the
>> right to refuse a challenge was the right to chose between being
>> killed outright and being ruined.  Some choice.
> 
> It's still a very real choice.  One chooses based on one's priorities,
> just as anyone else does.
> 
> And remember that the challenged typically gets various advantages
> (choice of weapons, location &c.).

Depending on the locale and the rules governing dueling there.  Some held
that the 'injured party' and not the challenged, retained the right of
ground and weapon choice.

As I have also previously noted, there were also some rules to dueling which
sought to  remove the advantage of the skilled duelist.  The movie "Barry
Lindon" shows an example, based on historical codes, where fire from pistols
was exchanged in turns, with the first fire was chosen by lot, or coin toss.
The winner chose to give or receive fire.  The opponents we lined up at a
measured distance, and the person receiving fire stood still and exposed
while the firer aimed and sent his ball on the way.  If still standing, the
receiver then returned fire with the other man forced to stand and receive
fire.

In such a duel, there was a very real and equal chance of either party being
maimed or killed.  I imagine that given such a possibility, one would be
careful with one's words.

Then again, one can look at 19th century France, where most duels were
fought with foils or pistols in such calibers as .22 flobert, where the
likelihood of a serious injury was very small.  If one looks at the number
of duels fought during the Dreyfus-Picard affair, one will see that very few
actually resulted in grievous injury or death.

I wonder how lethal the typical duel in the Imperium is?  Is it a deadly
serious business, or more of a symbolic fight?

As dueling is traditionally an occupation of the upper class, there might be
real incentive for the powers that be to limit the lethality of dueling to
prevent the cream of society from killing itself off.  But at the same time,
one might wish to preserve the strict code of honor that makes dueling
necessary.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 17:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun May  5 16:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <001b01c1f486$c6ae6f00$749793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8FB0C91.59D87%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/5/02 3:46 PM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

> 
> Most formal duels fought under controlled conditions still involved brawling
> type actions.
> 

I can't speak to this, as I have not witness any formal duels.  But my own
reading of primary sources from France and England in the late 18th and 19th
centuries don't seem to support this.  I'm not sure, but I think it's the
Baron de Marbot who make reference to one duelist laying hands on another
during a duel with swords, and receive the opprobrium of the observers.  Of
course, this was a duel between gentlemen.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 17:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun May  5 16:32:07 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <003001c1f488$050de1d0$749793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8FB0ED9.59D8B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/5/02 3:55 PM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

> What I meant was that "Marc Miller* decided that in his modern-day English
> Language game Traveller, which is about spacefaring adventuring in the 57th
> century, the word that would represent a kind of weapon that was a kind of
> light cut and thrust sword would be *Foil*. And since it is enshrined in the
> very first book of the very first edition, subsequent versions have kept the
> name."
> 
> Of course, the future will not look like Traveller, the language spoken will
> not be English nor  recognisable to us, Jump drive does not exist etc etc.
> 
> Therefore: Marc made some stuff up. He called one bit of what he made up a
> Foil. To change the name 25 years later seems a bit daft. If we start there,
> let's also rename Meson guns, write the entire book in Galanglic, chuck out
> the TL system because it's not accurate... where do we stop?
> 
> We can accept Jump drive and manipulative starfish-like aliens. It's not so
> hard to accept that a word for a practice weapon came to be used commonly
> for a real weapon that resembled it.


I think the big difference is the Marc (or whoever) misused a term in common
and well understood use when he called the weapon a foil that from the
description is not.  This is quite a bit different from something like the
meson gun, which does not have a long history of usage (at least outside of
science fiction literature).  I mean, we still call the gladius the gladius
after 2000 years.  And with writing being as common as it is, there's less
of a likelihood for the names of historical weapons like to Foil to change
over time.

Let's not be too religious here.  Brand me a heretic, but Marc or whoever
made a mistake. But one that is easily corrected.  I suppose one could just
call it a "Court Sword" or "Dueling Sword" and be done with it.  These are
sufficiently generic terms.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 17:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun May  5 16:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <004701c1f488$fc5dcd60$749793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8FB0F76.59D8C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/5/02 4:02 PM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

> 
> As a self-defence instructor, and carrying a few injuries gained mainly
> stupidly and away from combat, I have a different perspective. Fighting,
> even if you win, is a bad thing and to be avoided. Fighting over trifles
> seems completely stupid, especially when lethal weapons are involved.
> 
> I have, sadly, had to completely demolish someone who wanted to fight, but
> I'd really, really rather not.

I agree with you completely.  But then again, we look at things from the
perspective of 21st century westerners.  Our future brethren may see things
very differently, as did those of our past.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 17:37:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun May  5 16:37:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
In-Reply-To: <009001c1f48b$12047cc0$9c5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <B8FB0FD7.59D8D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/5/02 3:36 PM, Alan Bradley at abradley1@bigpond.com wrote:

> 
> Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if violence between Christian sects wasn't
> the first type of "warfare" indulged in by Christians.  Their sectarianism
> was one of the things that made them targets for repression.
> 
> The Aryan Jesus is a laugh, isn't it?  But of course you couldn't expect him
> to be represented as looking like a Crazy Ay-rab Terrorist(TM).

Umm.  Wouldn't that be a looking like a Jew?  As both the Arabs and the Jews
of the middle east like to keep reminding us, the two are not the same.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 17:48:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Sun May  5 16:48:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller's Aide #1 Review
Message-ID: <3CD5A044.4090309@sasktel.net>

Preface:

MJD and Hunter asked a while back if I'd post my review here too, so 
belatedly here it is (hoping they didn't do me the favour and beat me to 
it though I couldn't find it in a quick search, apologies if this is a 
duplicate). I should say after reading the other reviews here that I 
feel a bit humbled as to the quality of my contribution, it was in a bit 
of a rush and the afterglow of "new" material, still I stand by my first 
impressions, notwithstanding the other reviewers valid notes.



I've given this supplement a good read and I'm impressed. The quality is 
very high and the content is excellent. It does a great job of covering 
all aspects of personal armament.  The persona paragraphs are great and 
the rules are pretty clearly explained. You get tables and explanations 
for both the forthcoming Traveller20 (T20) rules set and good old 
Classic (LBB) Traveller.

There are a few new weapons, some new insights in their use and a good 
description of Imperial Weapons Permits. There are even some new ways to 
use your guns, like "Panic Fire" and "Two-Gun Kid" style.

Of course if guns aren't your style they've got you covered with a full 
selection of lethal and not so lethal melee weapons to chose from.

Scattered throughout the text are over a dozen (13 to be exact, no doubt 
just so I could say over a dozen in this review) examples of some of the 
weapons in nice line drawing style, reminiscent of the DGP  Equipment 
Sheets from MegaTraveller.

The whole thing wraps up with a brief look at who makes and sells all 
the goodies and what happens when you get caught with one you shouldn't  
have. It promises to be a good series of supplements, I can hardly wait 
for coverage of armor and military weapons.

You can buy one issue at a time (released every month or two), subscribe 
to 6 issues of your choice each year at a reduced price or sign up for 
your pick of 12 issues over two years for greater savings and a free 
print version Best Of annual issue. Its available now for download or 
check out the free 5 page sampler at >www.travellerrpg.com/pdf/ta0001.html<

If there is one major fault with this product it is the background color 
on the pages. While fine or even preferable for electronic media it is a 
problem when printing it out. This has been pointed out by other 
reviewers and the publisher is looking at changing it for future editions.

D. Burns



Postscript:

Hunter has recently posted that future issues will be available in your 
choice of flavours. Rich and sweet PDF for the screen and vanilla PDF 
for easy printing. Well actually he put it differently but you will be 
able to download either or both for the same low cost. Sounds good.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 17:49:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun May  5 16:49:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
References: <20020505225023.6FCFC27A07@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00ba01c1f48f$ba4577a0$9c5d8690@computer>

From: generalturokan@juno.com
> Yes, a political officer indeed, but bound by a code of conduct from the
> military I'd be in, or I shouldn't be in the military.

Which is my point:  you are serving two masters, and are obliged to remain
silent when your secular master is doing the wrong thing.  Worse than that,
fundamentally, you are expected to preach that they are doing the right
thing.

That can be a problem.  From my position of hostility to pretty nearly every
government on the planet, it definitely would be a problem!  Oh, well, it's
my problem, not necessarily yours.

I suspect this thread is drawing to a close, unless you want to add
anything.

OBTRAV:  State, Church and Conscience.  And Vilani funeral customs.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 18:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Sun May  5 17:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <B8F809C0.5962D%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020503133742.00b80be0@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <00b101c1f491$64e614c0$9307b286@Shane>

Mark wrote:
> My impression is that it's typically used as a 'badge of noble rank' than
> as a serious weapon.

So humaniti has evolved from, "Look out, he's got a sword!" to
"Look out, he's got a sword which means he's a noble and can bring the might
of worlds to bear against you!"

Now that's social evolution.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- "...an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 18:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May  5 17:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <B8FB0B29.59D82%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8FB0B29.59D82%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m38z6yyw1a.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> Then again, one can look at 19th century France, where most duels were
> fought with foils or pistols in such calibers as .22 flobert, where the
> likelihood of a serious injury was very small.  If one looks at the number
> of duels fought during the Dreyfus-Picard affair, one will see that very few
> actually resulted in grievous injury or death.

French duels in the 19th century were, in general, silly affairs.  Or
so at least was the impression I took away from a book primarily on
German duelling, with some reference to Russian, French and older
English methods.  I recall a French duel between politicians which was
utterly bombastic and which involved less threat to life and limb than
a typical jaunt on I-25.

The Germans and Russians, meanwhile, were devising ever-nastier
methods of doing one another in.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass;
a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read.
                                                        --Pratchett

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 18:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May  5 17:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <008e01c1f48b$10c59420$9c5d8690@computer>
References: <008e01c1f48b$10c59420$9c5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <m34rhmyvwk.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:
>
> This was by a process similar to how the festivals of the
> Unconquered Sun (Sol Invictus) and Mithras, both of which took place
> on the 25th of December, became the Christian "Christmas".

Actually, the whole Mathraist thing is slightly amusing, because one
has Mithraists annoyed at Christian similarities to their rites &
holidays, and Christians equally annoyed at Mithraists.  Both, I
believe, accused the other of being a false imitation.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Democracy consists of choosing your dictators, after they've told you what
you think it is you want to hear.                             --Alan Coren

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 18:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May  5 17:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
In-Reply-To: <009001c1f48b$12047cc0$9c5d8690@computer>
References: <009001c1f48b$12047cc0$9c5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <m3znzexh5x.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:
>
> The Aryan Jesus is a laugh, isn't it?  But of course you couldn't expect him
> to be represented as looking like a Crazy Ay-rab Terrorist(TM).

*checks icons*

olive skin: check
beard: check
long hair: check
robes: check

Obv. a candidate for harassment at one of our fine airports.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`What would you do if you won $1,000,000?'
`Well, I guess I'd spend the first $900,000 on women and beer, then just
waste the rest.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 18:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun May  5 17:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <B8FB0ED9.59D8B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020506003906.6545927A04@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/05/02 at 04:31 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>Let's not be too religious here.  Brand me a heretic, but Marc or
>whoever made a mistake. But one that is easily corrected.  I suppose
>one could just call it a "Court Sword" or "Dueling Sword" and be done
>with it.  These are sufficiently generic terms.

Well, all this chatter about foils and small swords and foo-ha finally
ran me to the encyclopedia. <g>  There wasn't much in my 1957 edition
to help, but two phrases did jump out at me "...the foil is the modern
version of the small or court sword..." and "..."the dueling foil has
a heavier blade than the sport fencing foil."  

Something else in the article on swords surprised me, the saber and
cutlass were both defined as types of broadswords. The cutlass being
described as having a heavier and shorter blade than a saber. The
machette was described as being similar to a cutlass, only with a
shorter, wider and heavier blade. The saber was described as coming in
curved and straight versions, with the curved best for horseback use
and the straight best for infantry use.

All very interesting, but the important thing appears to be how they
are used. Foils (whether epee, rapier or small sword) are thrusters.
Broadswords (whether long, saber or cutlass) are "cut and thrust"
weapons.  In a broad skills rule set (like CT) foil, cutlass, sword
and broadsword are more than enough detail. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 18:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May  5 17:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Gs and KM/h
Message-ID: <9e.2610968a.2a072bdd@aol.com>

--part1_9e.2610968a.2a072bdd_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

   Hey gang,
   I've encountered a little problem with MT, and I'm hoping for a little 
help.
   Well, designing a few small craft, I've discovered that several of the 
things are able to reach speeds of 7+ Gs, which is fine with me :)
   The problem I have is that the tables listing Gs and their KM/h 
equivalents all seem to top out at 7Gs. Looking at said tables, I'm unable to 
find any sort of easy "1G is equal to X amount of KM/h".
   Am I just being incredibly dense (known to happen)? How exactly do I go 
about giving these above-7G speeds their KM/h equivalents?
   Thanks :)
  -Ken-

--part1_9e.2610968a.2a072bdd_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>  &nbsp;Hey gang,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I've encountered a little problem with MT, and I'm hoping for a little help.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Well, designing a few small craft, I've discovered that several of the things are able to reach speeds of 7+ Gs, which is fine with me :)
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;The problem I have is that the tables listing Gs and their KM/h equivalents all seem to top out at 7Gs. Looking at said tables, I'm unable to find any sort of easy "1G is equal to X amount of KM/h".
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Am I just being incredibly dense (known to happen)? How exactly do I go about giving these above-7G speeds their KM/h equivalents?
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks :)
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-</FONT></HTML>

--part1_9e.2610968a.2a072bdd_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 18:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun May  5 17:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <008e01c1f48b$10c59420$9c5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020505173358.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>

At 07:53 AM 5/6/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Oh, and finally:  obviously the Easter Bunny should be female.

We have friends who celebrate Easter (even though they're Jewish) by having 
the Easter Bunny come by in the morning with baskets of goodies.

Then he stays for dinner. Yum!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 18:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May  5 17:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mis-jump question
Message-ID: <20020505.174759.-5487.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Sun, 5 May 2002 15:34:52 PST shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) writes:
> In mail you write:
> > I don't have a computerized die roller.
> 
> If you are running Windows, you do.
> 
> Dig out your Win98 CD. in \TOOLS\OLDMSDOS you'll find QBASIC.EXE and
> QBASIC.HLP. 
> 
> Copy them to someplace on the path. 
> 
> Then run QBASIC. 
> 
> You can write a program, or just type in:
> 
> print Int(rnd(1)*6)+1
> 
> Then hit shift-F5 and you'll have your die roll.

Easier said than done. I don't have a clue...
It would be 1000% easier if somebody on the list zipped me a copy of
their die roller, so I could just klick on it from my Win95 desktop.

Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 18:52:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May  5 17:52:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
Message-ID: <20020505.174759.-5487.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Sun, 5 May 2002 18:11:22 -0400 "Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net>
writes:
> >ObTrav:
> >With all of the varied orbital days with all of the inhabited  worlds
and moons throughout the galaxy, hundreds or thousands of key dates 
could get lost once off world. We have a hard enough time on earth. I
hope  record>keeping will improve once we colonize our system, or were
going to  be in big trouble beyond.
> >
> >Chaplain Bari
> 
> Which is why Cleon created the Office of Calendar Compliance and why
acceptance of the Imperial Calendar was a prerequisite for  membership in
the Third Imperium. In order to be able to both do business and run a 
government
> administration a common dating system was required.
> 
> Terry C

Yes a common Imperial calendar is fine. However, I was thinking more
along local calendar events which could become lost in time by using the
Imperial calendar.

Along with that, the orbital days of all the varied planets. Yes a 365
day calendar was made and adopted on world X in Z system. But X is having
difficulty holding onto it because their orbit takes 421 days. Eventually
X is going to lose track of their historical dates, not the Imperiums.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 19:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun May  5 18:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gs and KM/h
In-Reply-To: <9e.2610968a.2a072bdd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B8FB26CB.59DA2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/5/02 5:44 PM, MurfNMurf@aol.com at MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:

   Hey gang, 
   I've encountered a little problem with MT, and I'm hoping for a little
help. 
   Well, designing a few small craft, I've discovered that several of the
things are able to reach speeds of 7+ Gs, which is fine with me :)
   The problem I have is that the tables listing Gs and their KM/h
equivalents all seem to top out at 7Gs. Looking at said tables, I'm unable
to find any sort of easy "1G is equal to X amount of KM/h".
   Am I just being incredibly dense (known to happen)? How exactly do I go
about giving these above-7G speeds their KM/h equivalents?
   Thanks :) 
  -Ken- 

Gs is a measure of acceleration, KM/h is a measure of velocity.  The two are
not equivalent and you cannot convert between them.

Also, please refrain from using styled (html) text on the list.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 19:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun May  5 18:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <20020506003906.6545927A04@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8FB2883.59DA3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/5/02 5:39 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

> All very interesting, but the important thing appears to be how they
> are used. Foils (whether epee, rapier or small sword) are thrusters.
> Broadswords (whether long, saber or cutlass) are "cut and thrust"
> weapons.  In a broad skills rule set (like CT) foil, cutlass, sword
> and broadsword are more than enough detail. <g>
> 
> Eris

Probably so.  But we were originally discussing a supplement specifically
dealing with weapons.

Further, I take issue with your dictionary.  The smallsword evolved into the
modern fencing epee.  The Foil was originally designed as a sport weapon,
and it's use as a serious dueling weapon occurred only in 19th century
France, so far as I have been able to determine.  A foil is only slightly
more dangerous than a car radio antenna IMHO.

As far as the others, a saber is defined as curved sword.  That is the
primary feature that makes it a saber (exception for fencing sabers, which
are not really sabers anyway).

Definitions gleaned from encyclopedias are always suspect, as they are the
JOTs of reference books.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 19:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun May  5 18:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Interesting sword site
Message-ID: <B8FB2A9E.59DA5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

For a description of sword type weapons, see:

http://www.thehaca.com/terms4.htm

The main site is interesting as well
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 20:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun May  5 19:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hasty words
Message-ID: <200205060201.FSK01815@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>In such a duel, there was a very real and equal chance of 
>either party being maimed or killed.  I imagine that given 
>such a possibility, one would be careful with one's words.
>

Back in the early 19th century, in Bladensburg and Anacostia 
near the District of Columbia, there were duelling fields 
(large expanses of mud at the time) that had a variety of 
weapons and outcomes.  The one I liked was a wooden shack, 
well papered and coated with tar to seal out the light.  The 
two combatants were lashed together at the left wrist, and 
placed into the shack.  The door was closed, and a large 
knife dropped into the shack through a small hole in the roof.

There was a similar combat in France where two men fought in 
a carriage while it drove around Paris.  As it completed a 
circle of the block, they would stop the carriage to see how 
them fools inside were doing.  

Mr. Bowie made his name with his knife first in the 
Bladensburg/Anacostia area.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 20:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun May  5 19:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Still going on about swords...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020505215605.0185d3a0@mail.charter.net>

Item 1.  Loren, with all this chatter about swords, will there be at least 
a sidebar about Nobles & their swords in G:T Nobles?

Item 2.  I'll put forth the observation that swords just are not used that 
awful much in CT.  I say this because most of the folks who jumped all over 
the use of the term 'foil' were die hard CT players who didn't know the CT 
Book 1 definition described the small sword better than a current day 
fencing foil.

Item 3: <http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/TravSwords.html> My previous 
chatter about swords in Traveller.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Firm footwork is the fount from which springs all
offense and defense." -- Giacomo diGrasse, 1570
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 20:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun May  5 19:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gs and KM/h
Message-ID: <F122jnwSuRkZxyTFl0i0000ab3c@hotmail.com>

From: MurfNMurf@aol.com

     "...I'm unable to find any sort of easy "1G is equal to X amount of 
KM/h".  Am I just being incredibly dense (known to happen)? How exactly do I 
go about giving these above-7G speeds their KM/h equivalents?"


Sir,

     No, you are not being incredibly dense, it's just that you're trying to 
compare apples with oranges.  First, let's define our terms, okay?

Speed: The rate at which something moves, i.e. meters per second.

Velocity: The rate at which something moves PLUS the direction it is moving 
in.  This is also known as a "vector", i.e. meters per second to the left.

Acceleration: The rate at which something's velocity changes.  We're 
measuring the change, the velocity will change by this amount in that amount 
of time, it will change by X meters per second in Y seconds.  Thus meters 
per second PER second.

     Gees are a measure of acceleration, one gee is 9.8 meters per second 
per second.  You want to know the velocity, which is only measured in meters 
per second.  Simply put, to find the velocity (Kph), you'll need to multiply 
the acceleration (gees) by the amount of time that acceleration has been 
applied.
     Now to cause further confusion, MT threw a wrench in the works, IIRC.  
They had you calculate a NOE speed in Kph for each ship design.  If you look 
somewhere in the "Mega-errata" books, you'll find a formula that takes into 
account a vessel's gee rating, streamlining, and computer rating to pull a 
NOE-Kph rating rabbit out of the MT hat.
     Remember, that NOE-Kph rating has NOTHING whatsoever to do with a 
vessel's "speed" in space.  It's only used while tootling around within a 
planetary atmosphere.
     Hope all this blather helps.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 20:27:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun May  5 19:27:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <B8FB0C91.59D87%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <001b01c1f486$c6ae6f00$749793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CD692B0.15648.128330E@localhost>

On 5 May 2002 at 16:21, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 5/5/02 3:46 PM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Most formal duels fought under controlled conditions still involved brawling
> > type actions.
> > 
> 
> I can't speak to this, as I have not witness any formal duels.  But my own
> reading of primary sources from France and England in the late 18th and 19th
> centuries don't seem to support this.  I'm not sure, but I think it's the
> Baron de Marbot who make reference to one duelist laying hands on another
> during a duel with swords, and receive the opprobrium of the observers.  Of
> course, this was a duel between gentlemen.

I remember an account where one duelist stabbed the other, who didn't 
conceed at that point, but impaled him back while he was unable to 
parry (his sword still being in duelist two). After this someone's 
sword got broken so he closed and started stabbibg with the broken 
stub, and which point one of the seconds tried to break them up, but 
this was misinterpreted by the other second, who drew. IIRC it ended as 
a brawl rolling round on the ground grappling and stabbing with broken 
ends of swords. Not pretty.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 20:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun May  5 19:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program (was mis-jump question)
In-Reply-To: <20020505.174759.-5487.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020506023933.23786279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/05/02 at 05:47 PM,  generalturokan@juno.com said:

>It would be 1000% easier if somebody on the list zipped me a copy of
>their die roller, so I could just klick on it from my Win95 desktop.

I wrote a die-roller program for T4 that rolls 1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5/4 d6 at
the click of a button. I stored it away somewhere, but could dig it
out if someone else doesn't send you something.

BTW, I was using "Dice Bag II", but got suspicious of it's
distribution of rolls and after checking a few hundred rolls came to
the conclusion that it was doing uniform distributions on what should
have been normal distribution rolls..ie. on 3d6 the 3 was a likely to
come up as a 10 or 11. I've been meaning to write my own die-roller
for a while now, now might be a good time to do it. Maybe something
like...

  ____________________
 |-  Die Roller      X|
 |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
 |File Help           |
 |____________________|
 |  Number  Type      |
 |  O  1    O  d3     |
 |  O  2    O  d4     |
 |  O  3    O  d6     |
 |  O  4    O  d8     |
 |  O  5    O  d10    |
 |  O  6    O  d12    |
 |  O  7    O  d20    |
 |  O  8    O  d30    |
 |  O  9    O  d100   |
 |             __     |
 |  Modifier -|__|+   |
 |                    |
 |  |~~~~~~| Result   |
 |  | Roll | |~~~~~|  |
 |  |______| |_____|  |
 |____________________|

...how does that strike you?  Or maybe I'll dump the d30 and replace
it with a d2.5 just for Marc's T5...<g>...does *anyone* use a d30 for
anything?

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 20:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun May  5 19:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program (was mis-jump question)
In-Reply-To: <20020506023933.23786279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020505.174759.-5487.1.generalturokan@juno.com> <20020506023933.23786279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020506125552.B17970@freeman.little-possums.net>

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> ...how does that strike you?  Or maybe I'll dump the d30 and replace
> it with a d2.5 just for Marc's T5...<g>...does *anyone* use a d30
> for anything?

If anyone did, they could just roll a d3 and a d10 instead.  Only
slightly more cumbersome for the almost certainly low frequency that
it would be required.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 21:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sun May  5 20:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program (was mis-jump question)
In-Reply-To: <20020506023933.23786279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEEEDNAA.tml@downport.com>

I don't think that half dice will make it into T5.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Eris Reddoch
> ...how does that strike you?  Or maybe I'll dump the d30 and replace
> it with a d2.5 just for Marc's T5...<g>...does *anyone* use a d30 for
> anything?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 21:03:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May  5 20:03:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Easter Bunny
Message-ID: <7f.25a75e23.2a074c4c@aol.com>

> Oh, and finally:  obviously the Easter Bunny should be female.

Of course she is . . . who do you hink lays all those Easter Eggs, the Easter 
Chicken?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 21:05:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sun May  5 20:05:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program (was mis-jump question)
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEEEDNAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEEEDNAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <200205052309330192.298218A8@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/5/2002 at 11:02 PM Swordy wrote:

>I don't think that half dice will make it into T5.

They don't. Marc removed them

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 21:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun May  5 20:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <B8F959CE.59A05%webmaster@travellercentral.com><001601c1f38d$5380e8e0$a2e493c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <m36622teoy.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <003b01c1f4ab$57171500$52200050@matt>

> I could just as well use the word brocc today to refer to a rat, when
> in the 9th century it meant a badger.

And it still does, though now spelled Brock.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 21:08:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May  5 20:08:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: A Foil by Any other name
Message-ID: <da.1795a490.2a074d26@aol.com>

>Let's not be too religious here.  Brand me a heretic, but Marc or whoever
>made a mistake. But one that is easily corrected.  I suppose one could just
>call it a "Court Sword" or "Dueling Sword" and be done with it.  These are
>sufficiently generic terms.

There's only one person you have to convince . . . 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 21:15:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun May  5 20:15:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program (was mis-jump question)
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEEEDNAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020506031443.546D127A1A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/05/02 at 11:02 PM,  "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> said:

>I don't think that half dice will make it into T5.

Oh, that *is* interesting! Has Marc changed the basic task resolution
system, or just dropped the half die...or can't you say?

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 21:22:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun May  5 20:22:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hasty words
References: <200205060201.FSK01815@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <008101c1f4ad$7eb20500$52200050@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 3:01 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Hasty words


> Tod Glenn says
> >In such a duel, there was a very real and equal chance of
> >either party being maimed or killed.  I imagine that given
> >such a possibility, one would be careful with one's words.
> >
>
> Back in the early 19th century, in Bladensburg and Anacostia
> near the District of Columbia, there were duelling fields
> (large expanses of mud at the time) that had a variety of
> weapons and outcomes.  The one I liked was a wooden shack,
> well papered and coated with tar to seal out the light.  The
> two combatants were lashed together at the left wrist, and
> placed into the shack.  The door was closed, and a large
> knife dropped into the shack through a small hole in the roof.
>
> There was a similar combat in France where two men fought in
> a carriage while it drove around Paris.  As it completed a
> circle of the block, they would stop the carriage to see how
> them fools inside were doing.
>
> Mr. Bowie made his name with his knife first in the
> Bladensburg/Anacostia area.

I like the suggestion Robin Williams made regarding the 1992 UK General
Election. His suggestion was that the leaders of the three main parties
should be locked in a darkened room with a knife, the survivor to be Prime
Minister... of course, he said this knowing that of the three Leaders, Paddy
Ashdown of the Liberal Democrats, was a former Royal Marine...

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 21:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Sun May  5 20:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program (was mis-jump question)
In-Reply-To: <20020506031443.546D127A1A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEEGDNAA.tml@downport.com>

Sorry, I didn't follow the discussion all the way. I just put in my two
cents about why I didn't like it and Marc seemed to have already been
convinced that it should come out. I have not seen the revised playtest
files.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Eris Reddoch
>
> On 05/05/02 at 11:02 PM,  "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> said:
>
> >I don't think that half dice will make it into T5.
>
> Oh, that *is* interesting! Has Marc changed the basic task resolution
> system, or just dropped the half die...or can't you say?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 21:31:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun May  5 20:31:06 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP trade codes
In-Reply-To: <009301c1f10c$bfdfc7a0$e800a8c0@imogen>
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B97@KARPAD01>
 <009301c1f10c$bfdfc7a0$e800a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <20020505235234.796ac2bb.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
> Okay, I just checked and both "Ag" and "In" are not *necessarily*
> net exporters.  But  "Na"  and  "Ni"  *are*  net  importers.  The
> references are CT Book 3 p16:
> 
>     "Non-agricultural worlds must import much of their foodstuffs
>     from off planet."  (... but it does go on to say  that  there
>     may be locally produced synthetics.)
> 
>     "Non-industrial worlds are forced to  import  much  of  their
>     finished goods."

This off course means that red-zoning a non-agricultural world will cause
starvation... nice plot hook !

And red-zoning a non-industrial world will cause all kinds of problems
when things start to break down and there are no parts to repair or
replace the broken stuff...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 21:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Sun May  5 20:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP trade codes
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B97@KARPAD01> <009301c1f10c$bfdfc7a0$e800a8c0@imogen> <20020505235234.796ac2bb.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <017d01c1f4b1$1ccc14d0$9307b286@Shane>

Mr Rydholm mused:
> This off course means that red-zoning a non-agricultural world will cause
> starvation... nice plot hook !
>
> And red-zoning a non-industrial world will cause all kinds of problems
> when things start to break down and there are no parts to repair or
> replace the broken stuff...

Reminds me of the time my PCs had to name their new ship.  One of the
suggestions was "ISS Portable Red-Zone".
Obviously my players had identified a recurring theme in their travels.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Oh crap, not these guys again.
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 22:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Sun May  5 21:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Support for MT, TNE, T4
In-Reply-To: <008f01c1f48b$11644520$9c5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020506040704.34431.qmail@web13304.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
> Incidentally, I was thinking about the idea of a
> "Traveller Lite" that
> someone suggested the other day.  
> To keep a "Traveller Lite" within manageable limits,
> it would be necessary
> to trim it horribly.  > 
> It couldn't be a ruleset, even of a massively cut
> down kind.  There's just
> too much there.  You couldn't do worldgen, chargen,
> or space combat.  You'd
> be lucky to explain the basics of combat and tasks,
> plus of course, the
> basics of the setting:  why you would want to play
> _this_ game.
> 
> So it would have to be an extended ad, plus an
> example scenario.  That's my
> opinion, anyway.


And it is a good one. 

Something to consider though, I'm going to use CT as
an example here, so bear with  me.

My copy of Starter Traveller is two books and a double
adventure for a total of 107 pages. My copy of the
Traveller Book is 160 pages and it contains examples
of play, all rules, and several scenarios. The LBBs of
1 to 3 are 48 half-pages each, a total of 78 full
pages. Thats not a lot of pages for a complete
role-playing game.

The things that keep CT to a low page count are a lack
of artwork (the LBBs have almost none) and a minimal
amount of background for the Third Imperium. This is
just my opinion, but it seems to hold true. I think
that as long as the rules used for Traveller Lite are
kept simple and elegant, it can work.
 
My own suggestions are thus.
Make Traveller Lite use CT or T4, those are some of
the most elegant rules for Traveller created. Keep it
d6, they are very common and can be found everywhere.
Reduce the possible prior services to one, a generic
prior service (I'm a great proponent of character
creation as the basis of a role-playing game, I don't
like the idea of pre-generated characters although I
admit they are probably the only way this can work).
Ditch the starship creation rules and allow only one
or two pre-generated ships like the scout/courier or
the free trader. Simplify the ship combat rules, maybe
have something like they had in T4. Keep the personal
combat rules similar to T4 as well, they are basic
enough. A simplified worldgen and animalgen are
possible I believe. They should be included because
the generation systems are one of the main attractions
of Traveller, in any form.

What are some other thoughts on this? I do not believe
that a Traveller Lite is an impossibility.

Jeff M. Hopper




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 22:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sun May  5 21:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <3CD660FE.19135.660CA1@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205060746350.3886-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

> I was talking about the name Easter in England, and thus the Roman 
> (Western) church. And across northern and western Europe Christmas 
> happens to overlay Yuletide, which was a major feast.

As an aside, Christmas is called "joulu" in Finnish. We also use the
letter 'j' for the sound which is written 'y' in English.

We got it probably from Swedish, there it is "jul", pronounced something
like 'yuul'. 

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 22:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Sun May  5 21:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program (was mis-jump question)
In-Reply-To: <20020506023933.23786279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205060751380.3886-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Sun, 5 May 2002, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> it with a d2.5 just for Marc's T5...<g>...does *anyone* use a d30 for
> anything?

Well, I know of one Finnish RPG from something like fifteen years back
which used D30. B-)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May  5 23:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May  5 22:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program (was mis-jump question)
Message-ID: <20020505.224041.-4627.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Eris

On Sun, 05 May 2002 21:39:34 -0500 "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
writes:
> On 05/05/02 at 05:47 PM,  generalturokan@juno.com said:
> 
> >It would be 1000% easier if somebody on the list zipped me a copy  of
> >their die roller, so I could just klick on it from my Win95  desktop.
> 
> I wrote a die-roller program for T4 . I stored it away somewhere, but
could dig it
> out if someone else doesn't send you something.

No ones sent me anything yet...
A few years back I downloaded a shareware version called "Fuzzy Dice" but
lost it with the crash 1 1/2 years ago. It included a D & D character gen
which I didn't need though. It also had a roll problem. It always
repeated its rolls from startup., so if I wanted the same 10, or 100
numbers, just close and restart the program. Not what I want.

I could wait for your program, but add a d2, a lot of my solo stuff would
be faster if it was even he makes it - odd he doesn't. Saves a lot of
time thinking.

> I've been meaning to write my own die-roller
> for a while now, now might be a good time to do it. Maybe something
> like...
> 
>   ____________________
>  |-  Die Roller      X|
>  |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
>  |File Help           |
>  |____________________|
>  |  Number  Type      |
>  |  O  1    O  d2     |
>  |  O  2    O  d3     |
>  |  O  3    O  d4     |
>  |  O  4    O  d6     |
>  |  O  5    O  d8     |
>  |  O  6    O  d10    |
>  |  O  7    O  d12    |
>  |  O  8    O  d20    |
>  |  O  9    O  d100   |
>  |             __     |
>  |  Modifier -|__|+   |
>  |                    |
>  |  |~~~~~~| Result   |
>  |  | Roll | |~~~~~|  |
>  |  |______| |_____|  |
>  |____________________|
> 
> ...how does that strike you?  

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 00:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun May  5 23:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re:Today's Haiku
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>I see the f word
>Sometimes again and again
>It's not very bright
>
>I like an ObTrav
>The F word is not Canon
>I'm sure you agree

Weekend conference
On Islam and world affairs
No use of F word

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 01:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon May  6 00:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Holidays (was Re: Hasty words)
In-Reply-To: <m3wuuirzic.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <i4cadu08jma9qvkvsebrlvl6fc0d2964v3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3CD6DBB8.8624.4F284B7@localhost>

On 5 May 2002, at 16:38, Robert Uhl wrote:

> Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:

> > "Not if you're Orthodox" would normally be interpreted as referring
> > to membership in one of the Eastern Rite churches that ultimately
> > look to the Patriarch of Constantinople as the First Among Equals
> > (though not exercising as much control over the various national
> > Churches as the Bishop of Rome claims over the Western Rite Church).

> He doesn't exercise _any_ control over any other patriarchate.  His is
> a primacy of honour more than anything else, as it used to be for
> Rome, and was--still earlier--for Jerusalem.  Indeed, patriarchs don't
> even exercise a whole lot of control, technically, over their
> subordinate metropolitans (read: cardinals), archbishops and bishops.
> About the most they can do is sever communion (synods of all the
> aforementioned, and their big brothers--councils--can do more).  But
> technical limits and actual limits are different things.

Uhmm doesn't the US orthodox communion fall under the Patriarch 
of Constantinople? Surely that mass of followers would give him 
some clout (and didn't he recently intervene in a dispute between 
the Russian and one of the baltic Patriarchs?)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 01:38:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon May  6 00:38:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program (was mis-jump question)
In-Reply-To: <20020506023933.23786279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020505.174759.-5487.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CD6DBB8.10033.4F284C1@localhost>

On 5 May 2002, at 21:39, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 05/05/02 at 05:47 PM,  generalturokan@juno.com said:

> >It would be 1000% easier if somebody on the list zipped me a copy of
> >their die roller, so I could just klick on it from my Win95 desktop.

> I wrote a die-roller program for T4 that rolls 1.5/2/2.5/3/3.5/4 d6 at
> the click of a button. I stored it away somewhere, but could dig it
> out if someone else doesn't send you something.

I've got one. It uses a primary and secondary die plus a mod. You 
can generate any number of primary and secondary dice. Anyone 
who wants it drop me an email. And if enough people want, I'll 
make it live in the sys tray and add a right click menu for quick die 
selection (I've got the code for both, but never bothered to apply it).

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 01:39:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon May  6 00:39:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Religious Nooks aboard
In-Reply-To: <009001c1f48b$12047cc0$9c5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CD6DBB8.10405.4F284C1@localhost>

On 6 May 2002, at 8:36, Alan Bradley wrote:

> Oh, and for an OBTRAV:  I was wrong when I suggested that Vilani
> chaplains had Steward skill.  They actually have Carousing.  Under MT
> this can be used instead of Steward at one level lower, so it covers a
> chaplain's talking to people duties, as well as their other ones.

I've long been pushing for the inclusion of a Shulgi <sp> as "Moral 
Officer" in Vilani command structures.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 01:40:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon May  6 00:40:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020505083420.009f0a60@mindspring.com>
References: <001101c1f43f$8f565000$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net>
Message-ID: <3CD6DBB8.6634.4F284B7@localhost>

On 5 May 2002, at 8:35, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 10:17 AM 5/5/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Easter is many thing, to many different, people.

> Generic spring re-birth festival.

Goes along with generic midwinter festival, generic autumn harvest 
festival, generic midsummer festival etc.

> ObTrav: Trying to explain spring festivals to the natives of a world
> with minimal axial tilt.

Try a tidelocked world <g>

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 02:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon May  6 01:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Silly shop names (was: reloading example)
In-Reply-To: <00e601c1f176$bb40b6e0$a15d8690@computer>
References: <00e601c1f176$bb40b6e0$a15d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020506000451.48c1ec43.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> Which is actually a really good name for a shop.  So good, in fact, that
you
> couldn't use it in a Traveller game, because your players would think
you
> are being silly!

At a railroad nexus here in Sweden, there is a small caf called "Guns
caf". Written in pink female-styled handwriting in the front window. I'll
try to take a photo of it some time... if I can remember to bring a camera
when I travel in that direction.

Off course it's not really about guns. "Gun" is a female name in Swedish,
and we don't put a ' in front of the "s" indicating ownership. (ie we
write "Carls" instead of "Carl's"). But the sign still looks very funny to
non-natives  ;-)

ObTrav: Odd misunderstandings due to local names that mean something else
for seasoned travellers. The Warhammer 40K terms "Hive" and "Hiver" to
represent huge cities and their inhabitants could very well be used on a
world...

"So you're looking for Hivers, eye? Head towards that smoke pillar, and
you'll find 'em."

A number of variations on the misunderstanding theme are possible...

"Red zone? Nudge, nudge, I know what you mean... just head down that
street, turn left at the grocery store and knock three times on the metal
door".

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 02:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon May  6 01:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program (was mis-jump question)
Message-ID: <memo.149911@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020505.224041.-4627.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Greetings dear hearts, especially the General.

When I have access to computer but not dice (unusual, there's a handful in 
my pocket most of the time, and the main bag lives in the case I use for 
work as well as going out role-playing), I use 
http://www.irony.com/igroll.html

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 03:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon May  6 02:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <20020506003906.6545927A04@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002901c1f4e2$7f79a7b0$559193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> All very interesting, but the important thing appears to be how they
> are used. Foils (whether epee, rapier or small sword) are thrusters.
> Broadswords (whether long, saber or cutlass) are "cut and thrust"
> weapons.  In a broad skills rule set (like CT) foil, cutlass, sword
> and broadsword are more than enough detail. <g>
> 


YES!

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 03:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon May  6 02:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
References: <B8FB0C91.59D87%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004501c1f4e2$fd38d130$559193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
>
> I can't speak to this, as I have not witness any formal duels.  But my own
> reading of primary sources from France and England in the late 18th and
19th
> centuries don't seem to support this.  I'm not sure, but I think it's the
> Baron de Marbot who make reference to one duelist laying hands on another
> during a duel with swords, and receive the opprobrium of the observers.
Of
> course, this was a duel between gentlemen.


Savate was taught to "swordsmen and duellists" to provide kicks and
wrestling techniques for when it got rough.

I've seen several references to very nasty duels, such as one between to
British gentlemen with smallswords. One's weapon broke but he carried on
with the broken end. Both were stabbed several times, rolled on the ground
clutching each other's weapon by the blade etc. Both died,


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 04:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon May  6 03:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <B8FB2883.59DA3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00a401c1f4e4$b9c79470$559193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>



> on 5/5/02 5:39 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:
>
> > All very interesting, but the important thing appears to be how they
> > are used. Foils (whether epee, rapier or small sword) are thrusters.
> > Broadswords (whether long, saber or cutlass) are "cut and thrust"
> > weapons.  In a broad skills rule set (like CT) foil, cutlass, sword
> > and broadsword are more than enough detail. <g>
> >
> > Eris
>
> Probably so.  But we were originally discussing a supplement specifically
> dealing with weapons.

Yes, Weapons. Lots of them, of which swords were just a fraction.

>
> Further, I take issue with your dictionary.  The smallsword evolved into
the
> modern fencing epee.  The Foil was originally designed as a sport weapon,
> and it's use as a serious dueling weapon occurred only in 19th century
> France, so far as I have been able to determine.  A foil is only slightly
> more dangerous than a car radio antenna IMHO.


No it didn't. The epee was invented becuase people were training with foils
and becomning elegant fencers (and foils by this time WERE modern foils)
then getting clobbered in duels by people with less training but more
specific to fighting that foil fencing.

The epee was created as a training weapon to provide realistic training for
dueling with the standad dueling sword of the time (l'epee de combat ??).

A foil with a stiff blade and a decent point can kill easily. It lacks
stopping power, but it can kill. *I* could kill with it, anyway.

>
> As far as the others, a saber is defined as curved sword.  That is the
> primary feature that makes it a saber (exception for fencing sabers, which
> are not really sabers anyway).

Wrong. A sabre is defined in many ways. The best definition would be "A
light one-handed sword, straight or curved, primarily for use by horsemen"
Vague? Yes. Y'see, some sabres are straight, some curved. The 1908 Pattern
british cavalry sabre looks almost exactly like a modern fencing sabre.

The Marquis de Saxe insisted that cavalry sabres be blunted down the edges
so that users would not be tempted to try to slash (these being straight
sabres). The French, British and Austrian heavy cavalry of the Napoleonic
wars used straight sabres (French were thrusting weapons, British and
Austrian being nasty chopping implements)

There are many kinds of sabre. Some, but not all are curved.

>
> Definitions gleaned from encyclopedias are always suspect, as they are the
> JOTs of reference books.
>

Indeed.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 07:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May  6 06:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Codes Duello
Message-ID: <c8.26808ed4.2a07d9ac@aol.com>

>Item 1.  Loren, with all this chatter about swords, will there be at least 
>a sidebar about Nobles & their swords in G:T Nobles?

I have a small section on dueling, but I have no plans to go into any detail 
on the swords or other wespons involved. 

LKW 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 07:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon May  6 06:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Codes Duello
In-Reply-To: <c8.26808ed4.2a07d9ac@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CD72E97.2158.636388B@localhost>

On 6 May 2002, at 9:05, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> >Item 1.  Loren, with all this chatter about swords, will there be at
> >least a sidebar about Nobles & their swords in G:T Nobles?

> I have a small section on dueling, but I have no plans to go into any
> detail on the swords or other wespons involved. 

So I suppose that means "GURPS Traveller - En Garde" is out of 
the question?
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 08:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon May  6 07:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
Message-ID: <E174j4h-0006bw-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

I would like to see something like this.

Beth

> We're thinking of putting out (alongside the Traveller's Aide series) a
> quarterly Traveller PDF magazine (probably for free)
>=20
> It'd be filled with short contributions (e.g. Amber Zones and Patron
> Encounter type things) contributed by fans. Comments on the concept?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Martin J Dougherty
> Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
> Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
> www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 08:09:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Mon May  6 07:09:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing
References: <E174j4h-0006bw-00@pluto2.runbox.com>
Message-ID: <02May6.072747pdt.119082@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>

oh oh be still my heart...yes let us know when

Dave

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <shylady69@runbox.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Traveller Magazine thing


> I would like to see something like this.
> 
> Beth
> 
> > We're thinking of putting out (alongside the Traveller's Aide series) a
> > quarterly Traveller PDF magazine (probably for free)
> > 
> > It'd be filled with short contributions (e.g. Amber Zones and Patron
> > Encounter type things) contributed by fans. Comments on the concept?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Martin J Dougherty
> > Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
> > Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
> > www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 08:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon May  6 07:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Scheduled Chats in #traveller (Undernet IRC)
Message-ID: <v74dduo557m356i6qkup3bv3etpef5ojvv@4ax.com>

It used to happen; it hasn't in quite a while.  I think it would be nice if
it did again.  Once every two weeks sounds good to me, if we can manage it.

To that end, I've composed a list of some topics I think would be good for
a scheduled chat; I'd like three things from the list members:

(1) Feedback on these ideas.

(2) Ideas (and feedback on them) that aren't on this list.

(3) Your feelings as to what the best days and times would be.
Incidentally, knowing that there are people scattered all over the world,
it might not be a bad idea if you either gave your preferred days/times in
UTC, or else indicated your timezone as a difference from UTC.  Remember
that the Americas are 'minus' from UTC; Australia and New Zealand are
'plus'.

Herewith the list of ideas:

Shipbuilding
Vehicles
Worldbuilding
Software: What's Available and How Good Is It, and What Should The
          ComputerTravellerGeeks Write?
Non-Gaming References For Use With Your Games
IMTU: How Far Can We Diverge From Canon, and In What Ways, and Still
      Remain Traveller?
Traveller In Miniature: Striker and Other Ways of Handling Miniatures
Strategic Wargaming in the Traveller Milieu ( l Imperium)
Sources of Inspiration: Where _Do_ You Get Your Campaign Ideas?
Playing Without Hack-and-Slash
Role-Playing, Not Roll-Playing
Putting Conflict Into the Campaign
Gaming As Storytelling/Storycreating
Creating Aliens
Creating Human Aliens
BEGINNERS' CHAT: Character Generation in Traveller: What to Aim For In
                 Creating Your Character
BEGINNERS' CHAT: Knapsack and Locker: Equipping Your Character And Ship

(Beginners' Chats are envisioned as chats where people new to Traveller -
or to roleplaying in general - can get pointers and ask experienced players
questions on the designated topics.  It's potentially a good way of
introducing new players to Traveller and the extant Traveller community.
Beginners' Chats should always be noted as such, and the experienced
players that participate should remember that there will be beginners
present.)
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 09:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon May  6 08:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Lite
In-Reply-To: <20020506040704.34431.qmail@web13304.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <008f01c1f48b$11644520$9c5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020506102238.02278ba0@mail.qrc.com>

At 12:07 AM 5/6/2002, Jeff Hopper wrote:
>Make Traveller Lite use CT or T4 [...] Reduce the possible prior services 
>to one, a generic prior service [...] Ditch the starship creation rules 
>and allow only one or two pre-generated ships

I basically concur: it looks quite do-able.  I would go for the CT rules 
set; although it's old, it also has the advantage that it's uncomplicated 
and takes very little to explain.  Basic character generation, skills, and 
interpersonal combat should be do-able in just a few pages.  One 
possibility for prior service (which I have used in CT campaigns), is to do 
the following:

1) Roll up stats (I have the player through 2d6 7 times, discard one roll, 
and assign the resulting numbers to the attributes).

2) Determine home world (or home world characteristics), and take 1d6 of 
background skills and levels.  For example, with a roll of 3, a character 
from a mid-tech industrial world may take Ground Car-1 and Mechanical-2 
with the explanation that his character spent his teen years as a 
shade-tree mechanic.

3) Discusses the character's career with the referee, and decide on a 
career path.  The career path can include multiple services or jobs.  The 
player and referee agree on a number of 4-year terms of service prior to 
play.  Roll 1d6 per term, and select that many skills or levels from the 
skill list.  All skill choices must be justified to the referee in the 
context of the chosen career path.

4) Determine starting wealth and other "mustering-out" benefits.  At the 
referee's discretion, characters may receive use of starships, knighthoods, 
TAS memberships, or similar boons.  For each boon granted, forego one roll 
for starting cash.  To determine starting cash roll 1d6 for each term 
served, and multiply by Cr 1000.

5) Purchase equipment and supplies.

The skill and equipment lists will likely be longer than the character 
generation rules.  If a compact format for listing ship information is 
devised, it should be possible to list a wide variety of ships in a 
relatively short amount of space.  This is nice, particularly since there 
won't be a ship design system.  For example:

   SIZE TYPE  CLASS           STATS    CREW           ACOMMODATIONS
   100  S     Scout/Courier   J2 M2    1PNE           4 S, 3 Dt
   200  A     Free Trader     J1 M1    1PN 1E         10 S, 4 L, 80 Dt
   200  A2    Far Trader      J2 M1    1PN 2E         10 S, 4 L, 60 Dt
   etc.

   J# = Jump performance in parsecs, M# = Maneuver performance in G's.
   Crew is number of required Pilots, Navigators, and Engineers
   Accommodations show number of staterooms, Low berths, and Dtons of cargo.

The ship combat system can be fairly simple, and use standard turrets (one 
per 100 dtons of ship).  A relatively small table of weapons, plus a few 
tables should round out the ship stuff, probably in two pages or less.


Particularly with the CT rules, it wouldn't be unreasonable to get a 
playable game into an impressively small page count (what is the

>A simplified worldgen and animalgen are possible I believe.

Maybe; it depends on the target page count.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 09:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Mon May  6 08:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Silly shop names (was: reloading example)
Message-ID: <F219rK7k1c7Urv1LjRh0000dff1@hotmail.com>



Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
>Alan Bradley wrote:
>>Which is actually a really good name for a shop.  So good, in fact, >>that 
>>you couldn't use it in a Traveller game, because your players >>would 
>>think you are being silly!
>
>At a railroad nexus here in Sweden, there is a small caf called "Guns
>caf". Written in pink female-styled handwriting in the front window. >I'll 
>try to take a photo of it some time... if I can remember to bring >a camera 
>when I travel in that direction.

Don't forget our former Minister of Justice Gun Hellsweek (Hellsvik - vik = 
bay, hell = probably an older spelling of hll = flat rock).

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 09:27:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon May  6 08:27:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Holidays (was Re: Hasty words)
In-Reply-To: <3CD6DBB8.8624.4F284B7@localhost>
References: <i4cadu08jma9qvkvsebrlvl6fc0d2964v3@4ax.com>
 <3CD6DBB8.8624.4F284B7@localhost>
Message-ID: <m3znzdi9ft.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
>
> Uhmm doesn't the US orthodox communion fall under the Patriarch of
> Constantinople?

Not quite.  I should note that the US situation is very strange and
very uncanonical, for historical reasons.  Originally the New World
was under Moscow, based in San Francisco.  This included all
ethnicities, not just Russians.  Then the Bolsheviks took power,
martyred the Tsar, the Patriarch (the former archbishop of San
Francisco) and hundreds of thousands of other churchmen.  So the
various ethnic groups essentially wrote back home, asking for help.
Thus we now have the Greek, Antiochian and Russian major
jurisdictions, and then smaller ones, like Serbians, Ruthenians,
Carpatho-Russians, &c. &c. &c.  They all get along (mostly).

It's a very messy situation.  I suppose that one could get an ObTrav
out of it in the original timeline, but I'm not familiar enough with
it to map the thing.  An entire noble family is wiped out, without
central authority there's no-one to determine a successor &c.  But
I've no idea how to come up with a reason for the various sub-units to
get along.

Religions in general, though, can easily be mapped into Traveller.
Most folks who've not looked into it haven;t realised how fragmented
religion really is.  There are a thousand thousand little splinter
groups.  Many of them are quite weird by mainstream standards (look up
Children of God and Flirty Fishing sometime...).  This can very easily
be pulled into a gaming context.

> Surely that mass of followers would give him some clout (and didn't
> he recently intervene in a dispute between the Russian and one of
> the baltic Patriarchs?)

Well, he does have a primacy of honour, as Constantinople was the
chief city of the old empire.  And the last few have been trying to
increase that, in order to prevent a repeat of 1821 (when the
patriarch was hung from the door of the Phanar).  They have figured
that if they can get their fingers in enough international pies and be
seen as `Orthodox popes' then the Turks cannot do to the last few
Greeks in Anatolia what they did to the Armenians a few decades back.

Yes, I can go on for days about this sort of thing.  Being a PK has
its advantages:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
So Microsoft's invented the ASCII equivalent to ugly ink spots that
appear on your letter when your pen is malfunctioning.
        --Greg Andrews, about Microsoft's way to encode apostrophes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 09:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon May  6 08:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 05 May 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <me6ddug0ns4k57eof3qb65rp8prk9ekrrh@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - Peter Trevor returns to our Critic's Corner with two new LinkLooks -
   Elv's Traveller Pages and Doug's World

 - Updated the FAQ and the Published Products list.  The SJG forthcoming
   and planned products are now listed on the SJG Published Products List
   page, and a new page covering QuickLink Interactive as been added. 
   Miniatures fans may want to check a new note concerting Stan Johansen
   Miniatures on that page.

 - We have added a search page to the site. We have no idea how well it
   will work, so consider it experimental and send us feedback about it.
   For now, it's only available via the link on the What's New page; if it
   works out, a link to it will be placed on every page.

 - Michl Hughes has revised his method for creating TNS news items. You
   can read about it in Doing It My Way.

 - Ian Malcomson found some problems with hull design in Fire, Fusion, and
   Steel for Traveller: The New Era, and has provided a fix, which you can
   read in Doing It My Way.

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the (working!) feedback form at
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/infocenter/feedbackform.html.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to visit our site
and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our existence
possible.



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 10:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon May  6 09:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36B7@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I'm actually going to be doing some experimenting along those lines for my "Art of" book.  Since I won't have time to do full blown props of hand weapons for several shots I'm envisioning, I'm going to see about doing a foam cutout & rough shape in the actor's hand, then replace it with a digital model of the gun in quesiton for the final images :)

Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Urbin [mailto:eclipse@urbin.net]
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 7:13 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com; tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons


At 06:18 PM 5/4/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
[snip]
>Now if I could only find an artist that was good at doing firearms, I'd
>publish my own weapons catalog.

I wonder if Jesse has tried turning out any 3D weapons renderings?
IMHO, a weapons book by you and illustrated by Jesse would be a gem.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 10:19:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon May  6 09:19:15 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <00a401c1f4e4$b9c79470$559193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8FBFAF1.59E0E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/6/02 2:59 AM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

>> Further, I take issue with your dictionary.  The smallsword evolved into
>> the
>> modern fencing epee.  The Foil was originally designed as a sport weapon,
>> and it's use as a serious dueling weapon occurred only in 19th century
>> France, so far as I have been able to determine.  A foil is only slightly
>> more dangerous than a car radio antenna IMHO.
> 
> 
> No it didn't. The epee was invented becuase people were training with foils
> and becomning elegant fencers (and foils by this time WERE modern foils)
> then getting clobbered in duels by people with less training but more
> specific to fighting that foil fencing.

I take issue with you contention.  All one need do is make a cursory
examination of any of a number of period smallswords and look at their blade
construction.  What we now know as the epee blade was in common use use many
late pattern smallswords.  The epee did not appear out of no where.  It is
nothing more than a later patter smallsword blade, slightly lengthened and
having a bell guard.

Please show the combat heritage of the foil.
> 
> The epee was created as a training weapon to provide realistic training for
> dueling with the standad dueling sword of the time (l'epee de combat ??).

The epee is the dueling weapon of the time (smallsword) with a bell guard.
> 
> A foil with a stiff blade and a decent point can kill easily. It lacks
> stopping power, but it can kill. *I* could kill with it, anyway.

And I can kill someone with a rolled up magazine.  My point was that it is
not, inherently, dangerous.  The foil should not be considered a serious
weapon by someone who wields it.  It  is better than nothing, barely. If you
were to be engaged in a serious duel with sharpened fencing weapons, which
would you select.  Foil. saber or epee?
> 
>> 
>> As far as the others, a saber is defined as curved sword.  That is the
>> primary feature that makes it a saber (exception for fencing sabers, which
>> are not really sabers anyway).
> 
> Wrong. 

You disagree, or are you speaking ex cathedra?

> A sabre is defined in many ways. The best definition would be "A
> light one-handed sword, straight or curved, primarily for use by horsemen"
> Vague? Yes. Y'see, some sabres are straight, some curved. The 1908 Pattern
> british cavalry sabre looks almost exactly like a modern fencing sabre.

And a modern fencing saber is not really a saber.  You seem to have adopted
the attitude that these terms for swords are fairly wide and generics,
whereas I am trying to apply them as technical and specific.
> 
> The Marquis de Saxe insisted that cavalry sabres be blunted down the edges
> so that users would not be tempted to try to slash (these being straight
> sabres). The French, British and Austrian heavy cavalry of the Napoleonic
> wars used straight sabres (French were thrusting weapons, British and
> Austrian being nasty chopping implements)
> 
> There are many kinds of sabre. Some, but not all are curved.
> 

I would say that these are not technically sabers.  The Austrian and German
weapons are more properly Pallasch. The French typically (at least in the
late 18th and early 18th century) refer to these as merely 'heavy' swords.
What are correctly called broadswords (the correct term, and not the current
use of the word, which was adopted by 19th century collectors) or
back-swords.  As was noted here earlier (by you IIRC) the saber is derived
from eastern swords like the scimitar and tulwar which were brought to
Europe during the war with the Turks.  The single salient feature that
distinguished these swords from other pattern in common use at the time in
Europe is their *curved* blades. (note that I am excluding other various
European curved swords such as the Iberian falcatta, the Viking laengsaex,
the German curved Messer, Grossmessr, and bohemian Dusask. The Italians used
the curved storta, the straight bladed but curved-edge braquemart and the
curved badelair (baudelair, bazelair, or basilaire) as well as the short
curved braquet.

Yes, some armies adopted what are more properly broadswords or backswords
and called them sabers.  Technically, they are not, any more than a foil is
a weapon with a cutting edge.
>> 
>> Definitions gleaned from encyclopedias are always suspect, as they are the
>> JOTs of reference books.
>> 
> 
> Indeed.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 10:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon May  6 09:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [TML]Ideas (was Concerns)
Message-ID: <OF254F0F9F.BE9A7630-ON85256BB1.0057A069@pheaa.org>





"Hunter Gordon" asks
>If you have any suggestions for spreading the word that
>doesn't cost a ton, I'm all ears!
>

>1.  Find out if there are any TMLers or employees willing to
>host Traveller games at local shops.  Come up with an
>introduction to Traveller, how to GM, use some of the
>original material mixed with yours.

i am already doing this. i have run a couple of Demos at my FLGS. i have a
nice group who are now been converted to traveller. some have even bought
traveller books (unfortunately the FLGS could only get T4 stuff UUGG.) we
are running CT and I'm forced to copy stuff from my book which is wearing
it out. Ill need to buy a new one soon.

I am a Demo person for Reaper Minis Cav game. it is called the Black
Lighting group. we are given the very nifty title of "Tactical Officer" so
i host and run cav games for them.

If you guys do something like this PLEASE put me on the list. I am already
doing this and when D20 comes out will be doing that. i figure if i can get
enough people playing D20 you'll be making more stuff that can be used with
CT 8) I'm a selfish little bugger. CT has this whole Zen Like Simplicity to
it. 8)

>2.  Have these people run those sessions, have them recruit
>new GMs.  Take as your pattern the whole Pokemon league thing.
>Why shouldn't there be a Traveller league, a certified
>Traveller GM, etc.  There shouldn't be a fee for this - but
>if you talk to SJ, Marc, et al, we could spawn a new wave of
>young people playing the good stuff.

Already doing this as i said before. I am working on one youngster (16ish)
to start his own campaign. sell some more Traveller stuff and get more
people playing 8) our biggest problem is that our FLGS has trouble getting
traveller stuff for some reason so we are forced to buy strait off the web.
8(

>3.  Advertise this on a website.

Good Idea. however Something i would Like to see is this.(Please for give
because I'm not sure how to describe this.)

I would like to see a "company" sponsored thing where your Demo people get
to run an adventure and that adventure will effect a like a global game
universe.

Example you have 12 demo GM's around the country (this is of course a small
number) you send out to each GM a different Adventure. Say one adventure is
to stop the Assassination of the Emperor. however the PC's fail. now the
game universe gets up dated and the other 11 groups will have to deal with
the repercussions of said assassination.

Example number 2 group number 2 1 month later has an adventure in Rio. they
are up in the Chocolate Mountains north of the city of Landing. they are in
the out back and 2 weeks later they come back to town to find the place
under Military occupation by the Zhodani and the underground is fighting
them with weapons and military advisors from the Emperium. all of this due
to the fact that the emperor was replaced by someone who has started
playing military games with the Zho and this has caused all sorts of
political stuff that ends with Rio (a neutral system no less)being invaded.

It would require a lot from the company. either pre approved adventures or
company prepared adventures sent out to the Demo GM's. it would require
some website work so that the history of the changes to the said
"Mega-verse" where out there so players could read about other groups
adventures and see how they are effecting the way the "Mega-verse" is
changing.

The company would have to come up with strict rules as to what and what
could not be done. IE "You must follow the CT book 5 for ship design. you
can not use FF&S. you must use TD20 for combat you may not use Pheonix
Command for Combat. ect.. ect.. this way there was standardization between
groups and GM's ect..

once those where laid down you could get your GM's to start advertizing at
their FLGS and you could start advertizing on the websites. you could then
have these GM's run demos at game shows in this universe and have players
from these Demos feel they are having an impact. ect.. ect..

anyway i know this is probably beyond the scope of the company but i
personally would love to see it.


Bill




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 10:49:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon May  6 09:49:18 2002
Subject: [TML] silencing people
In-Reply-To: <m3adretfb2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205060943130.16803-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On 5 May 2002, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:

> alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com> writes:
> >
> > Unfortunately asking such a person politely seldom works. I would
> > suggest a short hiatus for Mr. Sears, enforced by the listmom.
> 
> Ah, so you are an advocate of silencing those with whom you disagree,
> or who express their opinions in a matter of which you do not approve?
> Charming.  Germany's due east; you might prefer it there.  If you run
> out of gas, there's always France.

You know, I have tossed people off mailing lists, and I don't see it that
way at all.  I believe whole-heartedly in the right of people to speak
freely in public fora, but I don't believe that people have the
inalienable right to make asses of themselves in my living room, at my
party.  There's nothing un-libertarian about telling someone that they
need to go somewhere else to say that, and not while you're drinking my
wine and eating my chips please.

This is Tod's list. It's his server and he is, I believe, paying
for it, which means he's our host.  If someone can't behave as a guest
under the laws of hospitality, he's got the right to make them go be a
jerk somewhere else.

Some of us prefer mailing lists to usenet because they are, in general,
more like a private party.  And the lack of spam is also nice.

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 10:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May  6 09:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] html
Message-ID: <174.7d5a9eb.2a080e0d@aol.com>

--part1_174.7d5a9eb.2a080e0d_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 5/5/02 11:10:13 PM Central Daylight Time, Todd writes:


> Also, please refrain from using styled (html) text on the list.


   I've tried numerous times to user just plain type, but according to the 
ever-glorious AOL, there's a glitch in their program which they're unable to 
fix. Hence the heinous html stuff. For awhile there, the list was striping 
MIMe fromat stuff from posts, which apparently made my stuff come out 
HTML-free. Help?
  -Ken-





--part1_174.7d5a9eb.2a080e0d_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 5/5/02 11:10:13 PM Central Daylight Time, Todd writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Also, please refrain from using styled (html) text on the list.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;I've tried numerous times to user just plain type, but according to the ever-glorious AOL, there's a glitch in their program which they're unable to fix. Hence the heinous html stuff. For awhile there, the list was striping MIMe fromat stuff from posts, which apparently made my stuff come out HTML-free. Help?
<BR> &nbsp;-Ken-
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_174.7d5a9eb.2a080e0d_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 10:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon May  6 09:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Unintended Consequences
In-Reply-To: <DAV55NsokLQ8aZRhQdO0000012a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020506165318.49700.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Texas Redshift <texasredshift@hotmail.com> wrote:
> What is the most funny, tragic, or far reaching
> unintended consequence
> you've ever seen visited on players as a result of a
> seemingly innocuous or
> well intentioned act?

Well, in my very first Traveller game, the GM, being a
kind hearted soul, allowed our first successful
mission to be rewarded by some pretty fancy weapons. 
My character got a Laser Pistol that used a battery in
the grip rather than the traditional cord and belt
pack.  Said pistol had a dial from 1-6 for the amount
of charge to release in the shot.

Well, our beloved GM had a number of combat
armour/battle dress fellows board our ship.  We lost
power temporarily, and while a couple of them were
working on regaining power, one of the baddies came to
my cabin.  The door was opened, and as he stepped
through, the power came back on, slamming the door
into him.  He was momentarily pinned (a very short
moment).

In the mean time, I had raised my pistol and turned
the dial to 6 to take a shot.  (Hey, I said it was my
first game didn't I?)  Well, all of our weapons had a
quirk.  Mine was that on level 6, and a GM 1D6 roll of
a 6, it overloaded and blew the full charge in grenade
like pattern.  As the pistol began to whine in
overload, I tried to throw it through the miniscule
opening over the head of the pinned baddie.

Did I mention that I think the referee was giving me
loaded dice? ;)

In any case, after a sequence of abysmal rolls, my
characters were frozen until they could be treated for
the massive burns they had received.  I got a "temp"
character who had some skills we needed but didn't
normally have.  Unfortunately, I still missed 2
perception rolls and we missed the "trap" door in the
middle of the deserted village we were camping in. 
(Did I mention that the dice were loaded?)

We eventually beat the bad guys and escaped.  My
original character had been healed, but the group we
were fighting for didn't have the plastic
surgery/regenerative ability to cover all of the burn
scars.  I had some distinct disfigurement.

Needless to say, despite all the rules, I was glad
when we dropped the sci-fi game and started the
RoleMaster game.

Paul "Loaded" Walker


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 11:15:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Mon May  6 10:15:07 2002
Subject: [TML] [TML]Ideas (was Concerns)
References: <OF254F0F9F.BE9A7630-ON85256BB1.0057A069@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <0e8f01c1f522$3453b9c0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

>
> "Hunter Gordon" asks
> >If you have any suggestions for spreading the word that
> >doesn't cost a ton, I'm all ears!
> >
>
> >1.  Find out if there are any TMLers or employees willing to
> >host Traveller games at local shops.  Come up with an
> >introduction to Traveller, how to GM, use some of the
> >original material mixed with yours.
>
> i am already doing this. i have run a couple of Demos at my FLGS. i have a
> nice group who are now been converted to traveller. some have even bought
> traveller books (unfortunately the FLGS could only get T4 stuff UUGG.) we
> are running CT and I'm forced to copy stuff from my book which is wearing
> it out. Ill need to buy a new one soon.
>
> I am a Demo person for Reaper Minis Cav game. it is called the Black
> Lighting group. we are given the very nifty title of "Tactical Officer" so
> i host and run cav games for them.
>
> If you guys do something like this PLEASE put me on the list. I am already
> doing this and when D20 comes out will be doing that. i figure if i can
get
> enough people playing D20 you'll be making more stuff that can be used
with
> CT 8) I'm a selfish little bugger. CT has this whole Zen Like Simplicity
to
> it. 8)

Not to post a me too, but me too...

I don't do stuff at FLGS, but I do make the local convention circut and
wouldn't mind demoing T20 (which I'm really looking foward to).  Hell, I'll
probibly end up running T20 games at cons with or with out "offical"
support, so I might as well coordinate with you guys...

later
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 11:17:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon May  6 10:17:13 2002
Subject: [TML] [TML]Ideas (was Concerns)
Message-ID: <memo.159198@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <OF254F0F9F.BE9A7630-ON85256BB1.0057A069@pheaa.org>
<lots of good ideas snipped>

What in effect Bill is talking about is a cooperative shared campaign. It 
takes a bit of organisation but the results can be outstanding.

It takes the 'Living Campaign' concept started by the RPGA for 
conventions, and makes it into a true role-playing experience. In the 
Living campaigns, everybody plays the same adventures, and the ongoing 
story arc is rarely if ever affected by what people do, at least, only 
very broadly. 

The games company AEG (7th Sea, Legend of the 5 Rings, Spycraft, etc.) has 
a series of 'Storyline' events which they use to influence the development 
of the published background material.

As it happens, I'm actually thinking about a TRAVELLER based one for use 
in the UK at conventions and available for homeplay. Hopefully to be run 
in conjunction with our good friends at BITS.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.
(Formerly UK organiser of Living Force, and now setting up a Living 
Spycraft game...)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 11:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Mon May  6 10:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [TML]Ideas (was Concerns)
Message-ID: <OF92A30B1C.AC694AB6-ON85256BB1.005F6DF3@pheaa.org>





<snip>
(Formerly UK organiser of Living Force, and now setting up a Living
Spycraft game...)
</snip>

Mexal dear could i get you to add me to your living Spycraft. i just bought
the book and i am liking what i read. i might be interested in doing this.

If you could forward any info to my mahina_tiare email it would very much
appreciated.

thanks

Bill
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 12:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Mon May  6 11:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gs and KM/h
References: <20020506040908.B7D7227A32@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD6CE33.9359B103@ameritech.net>

> From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:44:13 EDT
>
>    Hey gang,
>    I've encountered a little problem with MT, and I'm hoping for a little
> help.
>    Well, designing a few small craft, I've discovered that several of the
> things are able to reach speeds of 7+ Gs, which is fine with me :)
>    The problem I have is that the tables listing Gs and their KM/h
> equivalents all seem to top out at 7Gs. Looking at said tables, I'm unable to
> find any sort of easy "1G is equal to X amount of KM/h".
>    Am I just being incredibly dense (known to happen)? How exactly do I go
> about giving these above-7G speeds their KM/h equivalents?
>    Thanks :)
>   -Ken-

The easiest way of doing this is to just use the 6G figure for 
accellerations >6G. 

The next easiest is to multiply Gs-6 by 360 and add 4200. 

To determine the speed coresponding to some value of G not listed 
find the G values that bracket your value and apply this formula;

Sr=(Sh-Sl)/(Ah-Al)*(Ar-Al)+Sl

Where Ar is the accleration of the craft you are rating, Al is the 
acceleration value from the chart that is just lower than Ar, Ah is 
the acceleration that is the next higher than Ar, Sl is the speed 
that coresponds to Al, Sh is the speed that corresponds to Ah, and 
Sr is the speed of the craft you are rating.

For example. I have a dune buggy that has (inexplicably) a G value 
of 5.5 this falls between 5.0 and 6.0 so:

Ar=5.5, Al=5.0, Ah=6.0, Sl=3840, Sh=4200

Sr=(4200-3840)/(6.0-5.0)*(5.5-5.0)+3840
Sr=(360)/(1)*(.5)+3840
Sr=180+3840
Sr=4020 kph

Viola.

The hardest solution is to find a close match function for the 
vacuum speed table and apply it. 

As has already been pointed out the vacuum speed figure itself is a
non-sequiter and should only be used to figure atmospheric speeds.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 13:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Mon May  6 12:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] html
References: <20020506190114.1E4E5279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD6D8A2.FE1549C7@ameritech.net>

> From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 12:49:17 EDT

<snip>

>    I've tried numerous times to user just plain type, but according 
> to the ever-glorious AOL, there's a glitch in their program which 
> they're unable to fix. Hence the heinous html stuff. For awhile 
> there, the list was striping MIMe fromat stuff from posts, which 
> apparently made my stuff come out HTML-free. Help?

Dave's suggested fixes for AOL HTML bug.

1) Switch ISPs. Check around to see if there are any local ISPs that are
well thought of in your area. Barring that consider switching to one of
the other national online services.

This fix has the added benefit of increasing your internet apparent IQ.

2) If switching is not an option for you perhaps using one of the web
mail services for posting/reading mailing lists is a possibility.

I'm not positive that this fix will work as the web mail interface
may suffer from the same bug. There seems to be a feeling among the
people who provide email services that somehow people are clamoring 
for the increased file size and ugly background pattern options that
only mime can provide.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 13:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Mon May  6 12:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] html
Message-ID: <F59fnoy0KVLYlspMytQ0000e570@hotmail.com>

>From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
> > From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> > Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 12:49:17 EDT
>2) If switching is not an option for you perhaps using one of the web
>mail services for posting/reading mailing lists is a possibility.
>
>I'm not positive that this fix will work as the web mail interface
>may suffer from the same bug. There seems to be a feeling among the
>people who provide email services that somehow people are clamoring
>for the increased file size and ugly background pattern options that
>only mime can provide.
>
>David Shayne

I use Hotmail without any problems and I believe several people post from 
Yahoo accounts.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 13:52:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon May  6 12:52:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <20020505.174759.-5487.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
References: <20020505.174759.-5487.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3cd6db13.31275787@post.demon.co.uk>

generalturokan@juno.com writes:


>Along with that, the orbital days of all the varied planets. Yes a 365
>day calendar was made and adopted on world X in Z system. But X is =
having
>difficulty holding onto it because their orbit takes 421 days. =
Eventually
>X is going to lose track of their historical dates, not the Imperiums.

OK, kids, get ready, it's 11:36 and 15 seconds (a)... 16...17...18...
Happy Christmas!

Stephen
(a) Imperial Time

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Kemp)
Date: Mon May  6 13:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Campaign Setting: Alpha Quadrant
Message-ID: <EC449FF44730D511A7EB006008F6B22E02AA0846@ausexchsrv>

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1F53B.B8F40540
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Good afternoon, All,

First, I hope that this email goes out in just plain text format, as it is
intended to. If, however, it doesn't, please blame my use of MS Outlook and
my trust that 'plain text' format means exactly that.

Having once been more active on the list, and now lurking for some time,
I've gotten bitten by the bug once more, and am creating a new sector to
play in, inspired somewhat by Traveller Canon. Alpha Quadrant is placed
roughly four sectors spinward and six sectors rimward of the Solomani Rim,
roughly the same distance from Terra as Gvurrdon or Tuglikki sectors.

In this case, the everpopular Minor Human Race, the Corellians and Our
Heroes in this case, have only recently established a United Worlds Republic
after their third wave of expansions and explorations. The next door
neighbors of the Corellians are a small collection of Droyne worlds, the
last vestiges of the descendants of the Ancient(s) that once inhabited this
region before the Final War. (Grandfather still found him, though.) The
Corellians gained jump technology only through the reverse engineering of
Droyne starships that had crashed on the planet's surface. The Droyne, of
course, rediscovered jump technology from an Ancient site on one of their
local homeworlds, and technically are the only Major Race in the sector.

To coreward of the Republic lies the multi-subsector Magorn Empire and the
small yet technologically advanced Dendretic Coalition. Between the two, the
Republic is unable to expand coreward so has turned its attentions rimward.

The Magorn are a minor race that was given jump technology through contact
with Aslan seeking new territories. They are a very aggressive reptilian
race, and fill the niche of the honorable warrior race in this particular
setting.

The enigmatic Dendreti are a technologically advanced minor race that gained
jump technology through trade with the Droyne during a praytsirv's early
explorations beyond the Oytrip Yatroy. The Dendreti, a very curious people,
adapted to the technology very quickly and then began expanding. Somewhat
xenophobic and extremely territorial, the Dendreti jealously guard their
region in space, which has caused no end of friction with the warlike
Magorn. The Dendreti fill the same niche that the Hivers would in a broader
campaign.

I'm sure I'll throw in some minor races that have not travelled much beyond
their homeworld, depending on the worlds I've generated. (I'm using Jim V's
Galactic 2.4 and his homebrew UWP generation method, which defines a Life
score for defining the level of local life development. I can then glimpse
through those and determine the presence of homeworlds for native life.)

Most of the information I develop I will intentionally keep-ruleset
independent, but as my players are mostly 3E/d20 gamers, I'm looking forward
to using the new T20 rules when they come out. (If they don't work, I can
always fall back on CT/MT, my personal favorites.)

Any feedback, both positive and critical, is welcome.

My Two Credits,
Jason Kemp

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1F53B.B8F40540
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>New Campaign Setting: Alpha Quadrant</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Good afternoon, All,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>First, I hope that this email goes out in just plain =
text format, as it is intended to. If, however, it doesn't, please =
blame my use of MS Outlook and my trust that 'plain text' format means =
exactly that.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Having once been more active on the list, and now =
lurking for some time, I've gotten bitten by the bug once more, and am =
creating a new sector to play in, inspired somewhat by Traveller Canon. =
Alpha Quadrant is placed roughly four sectors spinward and six sectors =
rimward of the Solomani Rim, roughly the same distance from Terra as =
Gvurrdon or Tuglikki sectors.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>In this case, the everpopular Minor Human Race, the =
Corellians and Our Heroes in this case, have only recently established =
a United Worlds Republic after their third wave of expansions and =
explorations. The next door neighbors of the Corellians are a small =
collection of Droyne worlds, the last vestiges of the descendants of =
the Ancient(s) that once inhabited this region before the Final War. =
(Grandfather still found him, though.) The Corellians gained jump =
technology only through the reverse engineering of Droyne starships =
that had crashed on the planet's surface. The Droyne, of course, =
rediscovered jump technology from an Ancient site on one of their local =
homeworlds, and technically are the only Major Race in the =
sector.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>To coreward of the Republic lies the multi-subsector =
Magorn Empire and the small yet technologically advanced Dendretic =
Coalition. Between the two, the Republic is unable to expand coreward =
so has turned its attentions rimward.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The Magorn are a minor race that was given jump =
technology through contact with Aslan seeking new territories. They are =
a very aggressive reptilian race, and fill the niche of the honorable =
warrior race in this particular setting.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The enigmatic Dendreti are a technologically advanced =
minor race that gained jump technology through trade with the Droyne =
during a praytsirv's early explorations beyond the Oytrip Yatroy. The =
Dendreti, a very curious people, adapted to the technology very quickly =
and then began expanding. Somewhat xenophobic and extremely =
territorial, the Dendreti jealously guard their region in space, which =
has caused no end of friction with the warlike Magorn. The Dendreti =
fill the same niche that the Hivers would in a broader =
campaign.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I'm sure I'll throw in some minor races that have not =
travelled much beyond their homeworld, depending on the worlds I've =
generated. (I'm using Jim V's Galactic 2.4 and his homebrew UWP =
generation method, which defines a Life score for defining the level of =
local life development. I can then glimpse through those and determine =
the presence of homeworlds for native life.)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Most of the information I develop I will =
intentionally keep-ruleset independent, but as my players are mostly =
3E/d20 gamers, I'm looking forward to using the new T20 rules when they =
come out. (If they don't work, I can always fall back on CT/MT, my =
personal favorites.)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Any feedback, both positive and critical, is =
welcome.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>My Two Credits,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Jason Kemp</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C1F53B.B8F40540--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 14:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May  6 13:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program
Message-ID: <20020506.133714.-191383.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Andrew, Mexal, Greg.

On Mon, 6 May 2002 19:38:32 +1200 "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
>
> I've got one. It uses a primary and secondary die plus a mod. You 
> can generate any number of primary and secondary dice. Anyone 
> who wants it drop me an email. And if enough people want, I'll 
> make it live in the sys tray and add a right click menu for quick 
> die  selection (I've got the code for both, but never bothered to apply

> it).
> 
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance

I'd like a copy please, thank you.:~)

On Mon, 6 May 2002 09:54 +0100 (BST) mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
(Megan Robertson) writes:
> In-Reply-To: <20020505.224041.-4627.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
> Greetings dear hearts, especially the General.
> 
> When I have access to computer but not dice (unusual, there's a 
> handful in  my pocket most of the time, and the main bag lives in the
case I use 
> for  work as well as going out role-playing), I use 
> http://www.irony.com/igroll.html
> 
> Hugs and kisses,
> 
> Mexal.

Thank you dear heart, my other problem is web use. I have free access
through Juno, but they seldom allow a connection except late at night. If
I paid, I'd get better service.
 
On Mon, 6 May 2002 10:37:27 -0400 "Smith, Greg" <gsmith@Innolog.com>
writes:
> General:
> 
> You can go to this website and use their dice roller if you wish...
> http://www.pbm.com/dice/
> You send an email to dice@pbm.com 
> Greg Smith

Thanks Greg.

ObTrav:

TAS Agent: I'm sorry sir, but since your not one of our members, and you
refuse to pay, you'll just have to take your chances "On Standby" with
one of the tramp freighters.

Disgruntled flyer: But Miss, I've been bounced around in low berths for 3
months now. Can't you do anything?

TAS Agent: Well sir, there is an experimental AI ship with low berth
room. It will be passing your destination. I could ask it if it'll take
you?

Disgruntled flyer: Ask it? Well, it seems weird, but go ahead.

TAS Agent: Hello HAL, .................


Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 14:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon May  6 13:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Campaign Setting: Alpha Quadrant
In-Reply-To: <EC449FF44730D511A7EB006008F6B22E02AA0846@ausexchsrv>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEFDDNAA.tml@downport.com>

Still MIME. Oh, I suppose you meant the content :)

I'm going to be a bit negative and complain about the way you've tried to
balance things and make it seem familiar, like where you say, "The Dendreti
fill the same niche that the Hivers would in a broader campaign." Are you
trying to keep the OTU feel? But that is just me. I'm sick to death of the
OTU and anything that smells like it turns me right off. The fact that your
otherwise interesting new sector was "inspired somewhat by Traveller Canon"
pains me.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Jason Kemp

Any feedback, both positive and critical, is welcome.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 14:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May  6 13:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Campaign Setting: Alpha Quadrant
Message-ID: <20020506.135152.-191383.2.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 6 May 2002 15:22:19 -0500 Jason Kemp <jason.kemp@S1.com> writes:
> Good afternoon, All,
> 
>  Having once been more active on the list, and now lurking for some 
> time, I've gotten bitten by the bug once more, and am creating a new 
> sector to play in, inspired somewhat by Traveller Canon.
> Jason Kemp

Welcome back to the bite :~)

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 15:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon May  6 14:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Silly shop names (was: reloading example)
In-Reply-To: <F219rK7k1c7Urv1LjRh0000dff1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD67C44.4545.733DA@localhost>

my favorite all time sign no longer exists, it sat on a roadsign somewhere along 
Indiana Route 26
and read "Bobs Dog Obediance School and Taxidermy Shop"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 15:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon May  6 14:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIELECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>If duelling exists IYTU, are there age-old rules?

I'll just talk briefly about the Imperium, and, to a lesser extent, the
Solomani Confederation, because I haven't thought about the issue in other
contexts much.  (To digress, however, Vargr and Aslan societies may condone
rather a lot more violence than human societies, given the greater physical
toughness of those species and their predatory backgrounds -- or is that
just pinkmonkeyboy racism on my part?)

The Vilani never developed a culture of duelling to settle affairs of honor
or for any other reason.  Although the Terrans had abandonned duelling long
before the development of jump drive, it was part of the re-establishment of
a quasi-feudal society in the Rule of Man era, and has remained a fact of
noble life in the Imperium and Solomani Confederation to the present day (ca
1100).

Imperial law is extremely limited in my Traveller universe.  Both its
civilian and military aspects, where they apply, forbid mutual affrays.

Local law, of course, is quite varied.  While the law of Regina prohibits
agreed mutual violence, the law of Efate (such as it is) does not.  So the
seconds of the Baron of Credo and the Baron of Marburg may agree that their
principals will meet in four weeks time at a certain spot on the surface of
Efate.  Now are they conspiring to violate Reginan law?  It depends on the
state of Reginan law.  Committing an act that is legal in the place where
committed normally will not constitute any sort of crime in another place,
even if the actor goes from that other place to the place where she will
commit the act -- but exceptions abound, particularly as law level
increases.

The standards and procedures for a duel of course are in the Code Duello,
committed to memory by every noble schoolboy.  I haven't written the 57th
Century edition yet.

--Glenn




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 15:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Kemp)
Date: Mon May  6 14:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Testing Another Account For Non-MIME Msgs
Message-ID: <20020506214015.25591.qmail@web11201.mail.yahoo.com>

Hello, All,

Just testing another email account, to see if I can
work around the MIME issue.

Thanks for bearing with me,
Jason Kemp


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 15:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Mon May  6 14:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Testing Another Account For Non-MIME Msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020506214015.25591.qmail@web11201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEFEDNAA.tml@downport.com>

Success!

May 2002 14:40:15 PDT
From: Jason Kemp <flynnwd@yahoo.com>
To: Traveller Mailing List <tml@travellercentral.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> -----Original Message-----
>
> Hello, All,
>
> Just testing another email account, to see if I can
> work around the MIME issue.
>
> Thanks for bearing with me,
> Jason Kemp



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 15:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon May  6 14:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] reRimwar, Fifth Frontier War, etc.
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKELECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>I would really like to see a major boardgame (in which you
>could design your fleets, say) so that we could recreate not
>just the major battles, but fight major wars.

I would like to see communication and intelligence addressed according to
canon, too.  That is, communication and intelligence travel at the speed of
ships.  The player should not know whether a battle happened in a certain
system until a ship comes from there with the news -- and ships out there
should proceed with their orders until they receive new orders.

How to make that work in a hex-and-counters game I haven't figured out.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 16:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon May  6 15:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Scheduled Chats in #traveller (Undernet IRC)
In-Reply-To: <v74dduo557m356i6qkup3bv3etpef5ojvv@4ax.com>
References: <v74dduo557m356i6qkup3bv3etpef5ojvv@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020507081552.A22725@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> It used to happen; it hasn't in quite a while.  I think it would be
> nice if it did again.  Once every two weeks sounds good to me, if we
> can manage it.

Sounds good to me too.


> (1) Feedback on these ideas.

It looks like an excellent list of discussion topics.  Any of them
could lead to a productive and interesting chat session.  There's a
few I'm less interested in (e.g. miniatures), but then not everyone
has the same interests.


> (2) Ideas (and feedback on them) that aren't on this list.

I think that's quite a big enough list to begin with.  I don't think
you're in any danger of exhausting the conversions on those topics any
time soon.


> (3) Your feelings as to what the best days and times would be.

Weekend chats would probably be easiest to organise.  I could turn up
for a chat anytime between Friday 22:00 and Saturday 14:00, or between
Saturday 22:00 and Sunday 14:00 (all times and days in UTC).

For week days, any day between 07:00 and 12:00 UTC is good for me.
Probably a rather terrible time for americans, though :( The main
alternative for me would be to stop in briefly sometime between 21:30
and 22:30 UTC (before work).

Naturally any time you choose, it's going to be 4am *somewhere* in the
world.  Basically it comes down to deciding which timezone you want
4am to fall in, and hence which people will be effectively excluded.
(Usually it ends up being Australians and east Asians)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 16:30:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon May  6 15:30:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Plot Hook!
References: <20020506040906.E273927A31@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004001c1f54d$fd448e60$315d8690@computer>

Here is a CNN news item that just shouts "Plot Hook!" at me.  "Dual-use
biotechnology" is a lovely concept.  Hmm.  "Dual-use nano-technology".
"Dual-use information technology".  "Dual-use automotive technology".  Sod
it:  just "Dual-use technology".

So, for our OBTRAV:  A world the Imperium doesn't like is trading with other
worlds it doesn't like.  The Imperium demands that they stop it!  Of course,
Our Heroes have just loaded up a cargo of "Dual-use technology"...

---------------------------------------------------
U.S.: Cuba sharing bioweapons technology
May 6, 2002 Posted: 1:49 PM EDT (1749 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A State Department official demanded Monday that Cuba
stop sharing biological weapons technology with nations unfriendly to the
United States and singled out Libya and Syria as being intent on acquiring
weapons of mass destruction.

"Cuba has provided dual-use biotechnology to other rogue states. We are
concerned that such technology could support BW [biological warfare]
programs in those states," said John Bolton, undersecretary of state for
arms control, in an advance copy of a speech that CNN obtained.

"We call on Cuba to cease all BW-applicable cooperation with rogue states
and to fully comply with all of its obligations under the Biological Weapons
Convention," Bolton told the Heritage Foundation, a Washington-based,
conservative think tank.

"Beyond the axis of evil, there are other rogue states intent on acquiring
weapons of mass destruction -- particularly biological weapons," he said.
<snipped>
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/05/06/cuba.weapons/index.html



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 16:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon May  6 15:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIELECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B8FC5369.59EE9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/6/02 2:32 PM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> The standards and procedures for a duel of course are in the Code Duello,
> committed to memory by every noble schoolboy.  I haven't written the 57th
> Century edition yet.
> 

Glenn, everyone else,

I've just posted the Irish "Code Duello" up at
http://www.travellercentral.com under house rules.

If anyone is interested.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 16:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon May  6 15:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Holidays (was Re: Hasty words)
In-Reply-To: <m3znzdi9ft.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3CD6DBB8.8624.4F284B7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CD7B088.23336.509D7A@localhost>

On 6 May 2002 at 9:26, Robert Uhl wrote:

> Well, he does have a primacy of honour, as Constantinople was the
> chief city of the old empire.  And the last few have been trying to
> increase that, in order to prevent a repeat of 1821 (when the
> patriarch was hung from the door of the Phanar).  They have figured
> that if they can get their fingers in enough international pies and be
> seen as `Orthodox popes' then the Turks cannot do to the last few
> Greeks in Anatolia what they did to the Armenians a few decades back.

I thought the main reason Instanbul (Constantinople) had any sort of 
primacy was that it's the oldest surviving patriarchy. If Jerusalem, 
Bethlehem or Alexandria survived they'd be the senior patriarchies.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 17:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May  6 16:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] reRimwar, Fifth Frontier War, etc.
Message-ID: <20020506.160218.-17339.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 6 May 2002 14:43:00 -0700 "Glenn M. Goffin"
<gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
> I would like to see communication and intelligence addressed  according
to canon, too.  That is, communication and intelligence travel at the 
speed of ships.  The player should not know whether a battle happened in
a  certain system until a ship comes from there with the news -- and
ships out  there should proceed with their orders until they receive new
orders.
> 
> How to make that work in a hex-and-counters game I haven't figured 
out.
> 
> --Glenn

The usage of hex and counter with time is the key.

IMTU everything is run in real time. My own discipline keeps the order.
Even though you can see your opponants pieces, and he yours, you must
ignore the gut feeling that wants you to defend "a,b,c" but attack
"x,y,z." and stick with your orders - defend "m,n,o" until relieved by
the 101 Airborne Div..

If you have to. Add a few counters called "intel" and "comm." Send some
along with every operation, hold a lot back at HQ. As needed launch
either "ship" to report in, or to give new orders. Move them along your
flight plan only. Wait for responses, return to previous location using
the same flight plan.

This is how supplies and reinforcements move, and sometimes are captured
or destroyed. Just be disciplined about the unknown factors, ie: fly into
an enemy occupied parsec, you wouldn't have actually known that they
advanced. Fly into convoys, death, or your own fleet.

If you can't order someone to die, you have no business sitting in the
captain's chair.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 17:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon May  6 16:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
References: <20020506153614.B0BA3279D8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD70FB6.DF5CD2FC@earthlink.net>

Mikko V. I. Parviainen posted:
> 
> As an aside, Christmas is called "joulu" in Finnish. We also use the
> letter 'j' for the sound which is written 'y' in English.
> 
> We got it probably from Swedish, there it is "jul", pronounced something
> like 'yuul'.

Which, in turn, led to the English word "yuletide".

David S.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Mon May  6 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <B8FBFAF1.59E0E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1f556$f61be3a0$52200050@matt>

> Yes, some armies adopted what are more properly broadswords or backswords
> and called them sabers.  Technically, they are not, any more than a foil
is
> a weapon with a cutting edge.

Which seems to 'prove' the point that the Imperium can call smallswords
'foils' if they want. Why bother getting antsy about it... if RL Militaries
can call a broadsword a sabre, what does it matter?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 17:51:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon May  6 16:51:08 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <001401c1f556$f61be3a0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <3CD7BFA3.12713.8BA168@localhost>

On 7 May 2002 at 0:37, Matthew Bond wrote:

> > Yes, some armies adopted what are more properly broadswords or
> > backswords and called them sabers.  Technically, they are not, any
> > more than a foil is a weapon with a cutting edge. 
> 
> Which seems to 'prove' the point that the Imperium can call
> smallswords 'foils' if they want. Why bother getting antsy about
> it... if RL Militaries can call a broadsword a sabre, what does it
> matter? 

I think the problem here is that Tod is using the weapon's form as it's 
defining feature, whereas the old militaries were using function - 
those weapons were 'sabres' because they were cavalry weapons. Had they 
been infantry weapons they probably would've been 'swords' or 
'broadswords'.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 17:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon May  6 16:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <001401c1f556$f61be3a0$52200050@matt>
Message-ID: <B8FC6625.59F06%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/6/02 4:37 PM, Matthew Bond at mattgbond@ntlworld.com wrote:

> Which seems to 'prove' the point that the Imperium can call smallswords
> 'foils' if they want. Why bother getting antsy about it... if RL Militaries
> can call a broadsword a sabre, what does it matter?
> 

It doesn't matter.  But we are talking about 'canon', which smacks of
religiosity.  If the Christian church can split over a single word, why
can't us pedants have our rants?

Anyone can call anything whatever they want. Most non-gamers I know insist
on calling all role playing games "D&D".  To them Traveller is "D&D".  I'm
sure that many people on this list might take issue with that.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 18:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon May  6 17:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <B8FBFAF1.59E0E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00da01c1f55c$4762acd0$3dd593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> >
> > No it didn't. The epee was invented becuase people were training with
foils
> > and becomning elegant fencers (and foils by this time WERE modern foils)
> > then getting clobbered in duels by people with less training but more
> > specific to fighting that foil fencing.
>
> I take issue with you contention.  All one need do is make a cursory
> examination of any of a number of period smallswords and look at their
blade
> construction.  What we now know as the epee blade was in common use use
many
> late pattern smallswords.  The epee did not appear out of no where.  It is
> nothing more than a later patter smallsword blade, slightly lengthened and
> having a bell guard.

The Epee, in the form of a straight thrusting sword, did exist as a weapon
for higher-ranking officers around 1800. It was not the same as the modern
fencing epee, being more like a heavy thrusting smallsword/rapier affair.

The modern epee was, according to an article in The Sword a while back,(all
of my materials are loaned out at present) developed for the reasons I
described; other weapons also called epees existed. But then epee actually
means "sword" and is not all that precise a term anyway.

>
> Please show the combat heritage of the foil.

It does not have one. The foil was developed as a training weapon for
smallsword fighting; see above for consequences for duelists.

>
> And I can kill someone with a rolled up magazine.  My point was that it is
> not, inherently, dangerous.

WHAT? It is three feet long and has a sharp point on the end. It has enough
blade stiffeness to drive that blade through a human body. As weapons go it
is a fairly minor one, but it is still a lethal implement.

>he foil should not be considered a serious
> weapon by someone who wields it.  It  is better than nothing, barely. If
you
> were to be engaged in a serious duel with sharpened fencing weapons, which
> would you select.  Foil. saber or epee?

Epee, becuase of all the weapons, I am most skilled with that one.

But I'd take the foil over, say, a rock, or a rolled up newspaper.

> >
> >>
> >> As far as the others, a saber is defined as curved sword.  That is the
> >> primary feature that makes it a saber (exception for fencing sabers,
which
> >> are not really sabers anyway).
> >
> > Wrong.
>
> You disagree, or are you speaking ex cathedra?

I disagree, and was in such a hurry to get out to do the photoshoot that I
was rude. Srry.

>
> > A sabre is defined in many ways. The best definition would be "A
> > light one-handed sword, straight or curved, primarily for use by
horsemen"
> > Vague? Yes. Y'see, some sabres are straight, some curved. The 1908
Pattern
> > british cavalry sabre looks almost exactly like a modern fencing sabre.
>
> And a modern fencing saber is not really a saber.

No, it's a training weapon/sporting implement

>ou seem to have adopted
> the attitude that these terms for swords are fairly wide and generics,
> whereas I am trying to apply them as technical and specific.

But you can't. "Epee" means "Sword". "Sabres" come in many, many very
different types.

"1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Sabre (British)" is precise. "Sabre" is only
marginally less vague than "Sword".

> >
> > The Marquis de Saxe insisted that cavalry sabres be blunted down the
edges
> > so that users would not be tempted to try to slash (these being straight
> > sabres). The French, British and Austrian heavy cavalry of the
Napoleonic
> > wars used straight sabres (French were thrusting weapons, British and
> > Austrian being nasty chopping implements)
> >
> > There are many kinds of sabre. Some, but not all are curved.
> >
>
> I would say that these are not technically sabers.  The Austrian and
German
> weapons are more properly Pallasch.

This is true, and yet they were also referred to as sabres.

>he French typically (at least in the
> late 18th and early 18th century) refer to these as merely 'heavy' swords.

I have just looked up 4 straight swords in Philip Haythornthwaite;s "Weapons
and Equipment of the Napoleonic Wars" - the first reference I grabbed at
random from my currentle depleted collction. 4 pics of straight heavy
cavalry swords on the page; 3 are "sabres", one a "boradsword" (his
annotation). All ave very, very similar.

> What are correctly called broadswords (the correct term, and not the
current
> use of the word, which was adopted by 19th century collectors) or
> back-swords.  As was noted here earlier (by you IIRC) the saber is derived
> from eastern swords like the scimitar and tulwar which were brought to
> Europe during the war with the Turks.  The single salient feature that
> distinguished these swords from other pattern in common use at the time in
> Europe is their *curved* blades.

Yes, those sabres are curved. But the word "sabre" is also used to apply to
numerous (heavy and light) straight swords,

(note that I am excluding other various
> European curved swords such as the Iberian falcatta, the Viking laengsaex,
> the German curved Messer, Grossmessr, and bohemian Dusask. The Italians
used
> the curved storta, the straight bladed but curved-edge braquemart and the
> curved badelair (baudelair, bazelair, or basilaire) as well as the short
> curved braquet.
>
> Yes, some armies adopted what are more properly broadswords or backswords
> and called them sabers.  Technically, they are not, any more than a foil
is
> a weapon with a cutting edge.

Supposing I accept that every nation that calls its heavy straight sword a
"sabre" is incorrect; what then of the light, straight "sabre"? It most
definitely is not a broadsword. It can't be an epee becuase it does not fit
the tight definition you give, and the looser one simply means "sword"
(though is usually associated with light-ish straight swords).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 18:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon May  6 17:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <B8FC6625.59F06%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f901c1f55c$a47fcd80$3dd593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

wrote:
>
> > Which seems to 'prove' the point that the Imperium can call smallswords
> > 'foils' if they want. Why bother getting antsy about it... if RL
Militaries
> > can call a broadsword a sabre, what does it matter?
> >
>
> It doesn't matter.  But we are talking about 'canon', which smacks of
> religiosity.  If the Christian church can split over a single word, why
> can't us pedants have our rants?

Point. Other pendants will of course counter-rant...

>
> Anyone can call anything whatever they want. Most non-gamers I know insist
> on calling all role playing games "D&D".  To them Traveller is "D&D".  I'm
> sure that many people on this list might take issue with that.
>

The difference being that if I made up a fantasy world and I said that in
it, all RPGS were D&D, then it'd be true. Gawd forbid, but you see the point
I'm sure.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 18:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon May  6 17:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] reRimwar, Fifth Frontier War, etc.
References: <20020506235911.0F8C4279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD71D6F.74F2D54E@earthlink.net>

generalturokan@juno.com posted:
> 
> If you can't order someone to die, you have no business sitting in the
> captain's chair.

It's not the ordering I have a problem with, it's getting them to
cooperate. :P

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 18:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon May  6 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Silly shop names (was: reloading example)
In-Reply-To: <F219rK7k1c7Urv1LjRh0000dff1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD67D03.13221.A206C@localhost>

for years there was a sign along the road on Indiana rout 26 that read "Bobs Dog 
Obediance School and Taxidermy Shop"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 18:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Mon May  6 17:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Silly shop names (was: reloading example)
In-Reply-To: <F219rK7k1c7Urv1LjRh0000dff1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD67C44.4545.733DA@localhost>

my favorite all time sign no longer exists, it sat on a roadsign somewhere along 
Indiana Route 26
and read "Bobs Dog Obediance School and Taxidermy Shop"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 18:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May  6 17:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] reRimwar, Fifth Frontier War, etc.
Message-ID: <20020506.175433.-17339.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Mon, 06 May 2002 19:18:55 -0500 David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>
writes:
> generalturokan@juno.com posted:
> > 
> > If you can't order someone to die, you have no business sitting in 
> the captain's chair.
> 
> It's not the ordering I have a problem with, it's getting them to
> cooperate. :P

Ah, but do they trust you?

True, to see the enemy PC or NPC coming a mile away is hard to play, but
it can be done if your players agree in advance, and learn to be
disciplined, rather than babies.

A soldier is trained to follow orders, questioning them reflects on your
leadership ability.

Please report to HQ to explain why your unit out of 50 units failed to
engage in the General's operation. Remedial Officer training will follow
your phsyc evaluation. That is unless you prefer a courts martial for
treason.

T:~)


..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   .. 
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--     
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   .... 
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   . 
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 20:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon May  6 19:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <00da01c1f55c$4762acd0$3dd593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8FC8985.59F24%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/6/02 5:14 PM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

> The Epee, in the form of a straight thrusting sword, did exist as a weapon
> for higher-ranking officers around 1800. It was not the same as the modern
> fencing epee, being more like a heavy thrusting smallsword/rapier affair.

I think what your referring to as and early epee *is* what I am calling a
smallsword.  As stated, what we know as the modern fencing epee is nothing
more that a smallsword with a slightly longer blade and bell guard, and
lacking a knuckle bow
> 
> The modern epee was, according to an article in The Sword a while back,(all
> of my materials are loaned out at present) developed for the reasons I
> described; other weapons also called epees existed. But then epee actually
> means "sword" and is not all that precise a term anyway.

True, and I agree.  The modern epee is a practice version of the smallsword.
Grind the point sharp and it is still a very dangerous weapon.  Far stiffer
and stronger than the foil, it is less likely to be bent out of shape when
encountering a rib or other bone than is a foil.
> 
>> 
>> Please show the combat heritage of the foil.
> 
> It does not have one. The foil was developed as a training weapon for
> smallsword fighting; see above for consequences for duelists.

Agreed.  Both the foil and the epee have their origin with the swallsword.
The foil is more removed as a weapon, having 'foiled' edges and much lighter
construction.  The whole sport of foil fencing is clearly a sport as opposed
to a martial art, with such ridiculous (from a fighting standpoint) notions
as right-of-way, valid target areas and scoring by 'whipping' the point for
a touch.

I will amend my statement about the lethality of the foil and say that it is
no more dangerous than a *sharpened* radio antenna (the non-collapsing
type).  The fencing epee is significantly stronger, and stiff enough to
pierce the skull, or resist bending if thrust between ribs
> 
> WHAT? It is three feet long and has a sharp point on the end. It has enough
> blade stiffeness to drive that blade through a human body. As weapons go it
> is a fairly minor one, but it is still a lethal implement.

I've has a broken foil accidentally jabbed into my chest.  I had a painful
wound that required no more than a tetanus shot and a bandage for about a
week.  Boy howdy, did it hurt though.  in facing a foil, I'd be inclined to
just grab the blade, using an arm to parry (I've done this in theatrical
fencing.  I recommend a glove.  Fencers on the list will know why.)

Most fencers, particularly foil fencers, never learn to 'drive home' and
thus any thrust is likely to be weak.  Here's a little experiment to try if
you can bear to grind the point of a foil (I've only tried this with an epee
bladed theatrical sword.  What can I say, I'm a curious fellow.)  The next
time you plan on having ribs for dinner, put them in a plastic bag and haul
the raw ribs into the garage.  Hand the bag in front of a piece of cardboard
and try a few lunges with your sharpened weapon.  See what it actually takes
to make a mark into the cardboard.  It's not as easy as it seems, and takes
a fairly forceful lunge.

(For those that are curious, I've conducted many interesting experiments on
meat including hacking an old beef carcass with a bastard sword, and
shooting many hunks of meat.  Quite revealing.  It helps to know a butcher
who's a bit odd, too.)
> 
>> he foil should not be considered a serious
>> weapon by someone who wields it.  It  is better than nothing, barely. If
>> you
>> were to be engaged in a serious duel with sharpened fencing weapons, which
>> would you select.  Foil. saber or epee?
> 
> Epee, becuase of all the weapons, I am most skilled with that one.
> 
> But I'd take the foil over, say, a rock, or a rolled up newspaper.

And epee fencing is more like real fighting, I'll wager.  And you'd be
surprised how deadly a rolled up magazine can be.  Quire easy to fracture
someone's skull or crush their trachea.  The secret is to thrust and strike
with the end.  Try rolling up a nice glossy magazine, the tighter the
better.  Now, using your fencing skill, try jabbing something with it.  It
was always a favorite for use in places where more conventional weapons were
not permitted.  Like on airplanes.  (please don't tell the FAA about this
one.)
> 
> But you can't. "Epee" means "Sword". "Sabres" come in many, many very
> different types.

I agree, although Epee when used as 'fencing epee' is describing a very
specific weapons.
> 
> "1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Sabre (British)" is precise. "Sabre" is only
> marginally less vague than "Sword".

Saber.  Any of a variety of like cavalry swords distinguished by a single
cutting edge, having a slight to pronounced regular curve, the curve arching
away from the cutting edge, and a grip possessing a closed guard.  I'd say
that covers it.
> 
> I have just looked up 4 straight swords in Philip Haythornthwaite;s "Weapons
> and Equipment of the Napoleonic Wars" - the first reference I grabbed at
> random from my currentle depleted collction. 4 pics of straight heavy
> cavalry swords on the page; 3 are "sabres", one a "boradsword" (his
> annotation). All ave very, very similar.

I'm sure that you are correct.  I no longer have my copy of Haythornthwaite.
I'd be interested to know the actual French designation.  Curiously, a
search on the web shows that most sword sites mirror what I have been
saysing.  With the exception of British and Empire swords, where sabers are
frequently straight bladed weapons, sabers are generally curved and straight
bladed weapons are known by another name.

For example, see: http://www.militaryheritage.com/swords.htm
> 
> Supposing I accept that every nation that calls its heavy straight sword a
> "sabre" is incorrect; what then of the light, straight "sabre"? It most
> definitely is not a broadsword. It can't be an epee becuase it does not fit
> the tight definition you give, and the looser one simply means "sword"
> (though is usually associated with light-ish straight swords).

It is a mystery, but it seems (oddly) that many nations (and references) do
refer to light, straight bladed weapons as 'swords', accepting the notion
that sabers are curved.  We seem to be lacking a term here.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 20:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon May  6 19:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <00f901c1f55c$a47fcd80$3dd593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8FC8AB6.59F27%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/6/02 5:17 PM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

>> It doesn't matter.  But we are talking about 'canon', which smacks of
>> religiosity.  If the Christian church can split over a single word, why
>> can't us pedants have our rants?
> 
> Point. Other pendants will of course counter-rant...

It's no fun if we all agree, is it?  I suppose the appropriate way to settle
the debate would be a duel, but since several thousand miles intervene...

Besides, I'm sure you get much more practice fencing.  I manage a couple of
hours a week and no longer compete.  The 'gamesmanship' in competition
fencing really bugs me.  It's like gaming with munchkins.  It's all about
the points and winning.  I stopped fencing foil completely because of
'whipping'. Now if we took the points off, that might be interesting.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 20:36:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Mon May  6 19:36:33 2002
Subject: [TML] HTML Free?
Message-ID: <F97gxLDp7mvjkO22ZhC0000d753@hotmail.com>

   Well, I decided to jump the broom and try Hotmail. Am I HTML free now?
  -Ken-

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 20:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jerry Hill)
Date: Mon May  6 19:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Chaplains
Message-ID: <00001d8c01214b07d2@[192.168.0.66]>

From: Tod Glenn

> All this chat about chaplains reminded me of the "Chaplains Medal." I
> thought I'd share this with you.

Thanks, Tod.  I appreciate seeing stuff like this on the list.

--
Jerry




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 20:51:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon May  6 19:51:05 2002
Subject: [TML] HTML Free?
In-Reply-To: <F97gxLDp7mvjkO22ZhC0000d753@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8FC8F06.59F2F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/6/02 7:35 PM, Ken Murphy at murfnmurf@hotmail.com wrote:

> Well, I decided to jump the broom and try Hotmail. Am I HTML free now?
> -Ken-
> 

Yes, thanks.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May  6 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Spycraft
Message-ID: <fb.25ce37a3.2a089ec7@aol.com>

Bill writes:

>Mexal dear could i get you to add me to your living Spycraft. i just bought
>the book and i am liking what i read. i might be interested in doing this.

Sadly, I found Spycraft highly schizophrenic. The classes and "races" offered 
are oriented toward team play (MI, Mod Squad, Charlies Angels, Man from 
UNCLE, etc) while the feats and much of the other writing is aimed more at 
the super-solo (James Bond, forex). The genre is diffuse enough that a strong 
setting is *really* necessary, and this book relegated the strong setting to 
the next book...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 21:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Mon May  6 20:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Spycraft
In-Reply-To: <fb.25ce37a3.2a089ec7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAOELLDBAA.redroach@pobox.com>

If everyone wants a good espionage/spycraft view on rpg, visit
http://users2.ev1.net/~redroach/ad2300
Find the links page has a link to Ben Levy's page.
He is former Military Intel and has lots of stuff on how to run an
espionage/spy campaign in any rpg

TV

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GypsyComet@aol.com
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 10:07 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Spycraft


Bill writes:

>Mexal dear could i get you to add me to your living Spycraft. i just bought
>the book and i am liking what i read. i might be interested in doing this.

Sadly, I found Spycraft highly schizophrenic. The classes and "races"
offered
are oriented toward team play (MI, Mod Squad, Charlies Angels, Man from
UNCLE, etc) while the feats and much of the other writing is aimed more at
the super-solo (James Bond, forex). The genre is diffuse enough that a
strong
setting is *really* necessary, and this book relegated the strong setting to
the next book...
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 22:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon May  6 21:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] reRimwar, Fifth Frontier War, etc.
In-Reply-To: <3CD71D6F.74F2D54E@earthlink.net>
References: <20020506235911.0F8C4279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020506212111.009fc090@mindspring.com>

At 07:18 PM 5/6/02 -0500, you wrote:
>generalturokan@juno.com posted:
> >
> > If you can't order someone to die, you have no business sitting in the
> > captain's chair.
>
>It's not the ordering I have a problem with, it's getting them to
>cooperate. :P

Which reminds of something I overheard my Company CO tell a new Lieutenant. 
"They will salute the rank, but they will only follow the man."

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 22:45:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon May  6 21:45:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <3cd6db13.31275787@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <20020505.174759.-5487.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
 <20020505.174759.-5487.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020506211446.009f5100@mindspring.com>

>generalturokan@juno.com writes:
>
>
> >Along with that, the orbital days of all the varied planets. Yes a 365
> >day calendar was made and adopted on world X in Z system. But X is having
> >difficulty holding onto it because their orbit takes 421 days. Eventually
> >X is going to lose track of their historical dates, not the Imperiums.

One of the worlds in Trojan Reach was settled by a mis-jumped Imperial 
colonization ship. The have remained fanatically Imperial, and refuse to 
adapt to the local stellar year. Each Holiday, the government simply 
publishes a schedule of when various events like the equinoxes happen.

One fun note: these guys think the Aslan Border Wars are still happening...


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May  6 22:47:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Mon May  6 21:47:12 2002
Subject: [TML] reRimwar, Fifth Frontier War, etc.
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKELECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205070741230.21411-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Mon, 6 May 2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
[interstellar warfare boardgame]
> I would like to see communication and intelligence addressed according to
> canon, too.  That is, communication and intelligence travel at the speed of
> ships.  The player should not know whether a battle happened in a certain
> system until a ship comes from there with the news -- and ships out there
> should proceed with their orders until they receive new orders.
> 
> How to make that work in a hex-and-counters game I haven't figured out.

I remember the board game Starfire having something like this. It might
have been in the supplement Imperial Starfire, as it had the campaign
rules. The world had wormholes, and there were some rules (playing with a
referee, of course) for sending ships through holes and them not coming
back. It might even have involved battles.

It has been something like eight years since I last read the game. I don't
own it.

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 00:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon May  6 23:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
References: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHOEFMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
 <024801c1f2ad$7d8d22b0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <3CD3E6A7.F1027DDD@mindspring.com> <m3adretfb2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3CD771D3.2C577323@mindspring.com>

"Robert Uhl " wrote:

> alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com> writes:
> >
> > Unfortunately asking such a person politely seldom works. I would
> > suggest a short hiatus for Mr. Sears, enforced by the listmom.
>
> Ah, so you are an advocate of silencing those with whom you disagree,
> or who express their opinions in a matter of which you do not approve?
> Charming.  Germany's due east; you might prefer it there.  If you run
> out of gas, there's always France.
>
> > I hear enough of this language on the job.
>
> Then you should be used to it.
>
> I don't approve of his manner of posting either, FWIW.  The killfile
> and the `D' key are excellent tools.  They remove someone from one's
> own sphere while still allowing him to speak his piece to others.
>


AHHrggggggg!!!!! I've become Jesse Helms! Rip out my brain and stomp on
it.
Sgt. Savage appears out of the shadows and proceeds to do same.

Yes. I wish we all had a think before you post key. Sorry. BTW I only
suggested a hiatus. I haven't kill filed because I hope to get some
ideas from Mr. Sears. He's already given me material for the solomani;).
Also as an American I prefer to be tarred as a McCarthyite. And please,
I wouldn't send Mr. Sears to France, so don't suggest it to me.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I eat babies. I drink pee. I must be French!, French!, French!
                  -Nathan Lane & Chris Katein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 00:25:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon May  6 23:25:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
References: <memo.131912@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CD694B2.35751A08@mindspring.com>

Megan Robertson wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <B8FA3692.59C8E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> As information:
>
> Jews celebrate the Passover (Pesach) at the time that - according to the
> Christians - Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem. The timing of the festivals
> is tied together... Pesach occurs on the 1st full moon after the 21st
> March, Easter is celebrated on the Sunday following said full moon.
>
> Mexal (who is still wondering why her Muslim students get both the Muslim
> festivals AND Easter off while she has to settle for Easter. Ought I to
> change religion?).
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Dear Mexal, Become a Pagan (Not the organized group, you need your own
pantheon) and spiritual leader of your own group. Declare holidays as
necessary. Have the uninitiated bring food and drink to your altar. Share it
with them if they have followed your directives faithfully.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I eat babies. I drink pee. I must be French!, French!, French!
                  -Nathan Lane & Chris Katein





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 00:26:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon May  6 23:26:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
References: <memo.131912@cix.compulink.co.uk>
 <DAV56zsHodJg8F9202800004a01@hotmail.com> <m3n0vetfso.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3CD698C1.3BD1C1FE@mindspring.com>

"Robert Uhl " wrote:

> As to why Rome, alone among patriarchates, chose unleavened, I've not
> the slightest idea, really.

Did it cost more?



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I eat babies. I drink pee. I must be French!, French!, French!
                  -Nathan Lane & Chris Katein





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 00:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon May  6 23:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <B8FC8985.59F24%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008001c1f593$3dad74e0$3dd493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> True, and I agree.  The modern epee is a practice version of the
smallsword.

Yes, I suppose it pretty much.

> Grind the point sharp and it is still a very dangerous weapon.  Far
stiffer
> and stronger than the foil, it is less likely to be bent out of shape when
> encountering a rib or other bone than is a foil.

This is certainly true.

> >
> >>
> >> Please show the combat heritage of the foil.
> >
> > It does not have one. The foil was developed as a training weapon for
> > smallsword fighting; see above for consequences for duelists.
>
> Agreed.  Both the foil and the epee have their origin with the swallsword.
> The foil is more removed as a weapon, having 'foiled' edges and much
lighter
> construction.  The whole sport of foil fencing is clearly a sport as
opposed
> to a martial art, with such ridiculous (from a fighting standpoint)
notions
> as right-of-way, valid target areas and scoring by 'whipping' the point
for
> a touch.

Ach. Flicky whippy crap. I hate that. One reason I stopped competing about
the foil.

>
> I will amend my statement about the lethality of the foil and say that it
is
> no more dangerous than a *sharpened* radio antenna (the non-collapsing
> type).  The fencing epee is significantly stronger, and stiff enough to
> pierce the skull, or resist bending if thrust between ribs

Agreed.
>
> I've has a broken foil accidentally jabbed into my chest.  I had a painful
> wound that required no more than a tetanus shot and a bandage for about a
> week.  Boy howdy, did it hurt though.  in facing a foil, I'd be inclined
to
> just grab the blade, using an arm to parry (I've done this in theatrical
> fencing.  I recommend a glove.  Fencers on the list will know why.)

Heh. yes. Burrs = Ouch.

>
> Most fencers, particularly foil fencers, never learn to 'drive home' and
> thus any thrust is likely to be weak.  Here's a little experiment to try
if
> you can bear to grind the point of a foil (I've only tried this with an
epee
> bladed theatrical sword.  What can I say, I'm a curious fellow.)  The next
> time you plan on having ribs for dinner, put them in a plastic bag and
haul
> the raw ribs into the garage.  Hand the bag in front of a piece of
cardboard
> and try a few lunges with your sharpened weapon.  See what it actually
takes
> to make a mark into the cardboard.  It's not as easy as it seems, and
takes
> a fairly forceful lunge.
>
> (For those that are curious, I've conducted many interesting experiments
on
> meat including hacking an old beef carcass with a bastard sword, and
> shooting many hunks of meat.  Quite revealing.  It helps to know a butcher
> who's a bit odd, too.)

Sounds cool. Odd people are useful sometimes!

>
> And epee fencing is more like real fighting, I'll wager.  And you'd be
> surprised how deadly a rolled up magazine can be.

No I would not. I also do a number of martial arts, and I know what you're
getting at here. Though most people would be surprised...

>Quire easy to fracture
> someone's skull or crush their trachea.  The secret is to thrust and
strike
> with the end.  Try rolling up a nice glossy magazine, the tighter the
> better.  Now, using your fencing skill, try jabbing something with it.  It
> was always a favorite for use in places where more conventional weapons
were
> not permitted.  Like on airplanes.  (please don't tell the FAA about this
> one.)

A friend once did this with a flashlight into a berserk attacker's face.
Lunged, struck, twisted the broken glass into the guy's face.
Actually it didn't stop him, but neither did the baton across the back of
the knees. He was a big guy, and very drunk.

> >
> > But you can't. "Epee" means "Sword". "Sabres" come in many, many very
> > different types.
>
> I agree, although Epee when used as 'fencing epee' is describing a very
> specific weapons.

Yes. That's true.

> >
> > "1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Sabre (British)" is precise. "Sabre" is only
> > marginally less vague than "Sword".
>
> Saber.  Any of a variety of like cavalry swords distinguished by a single
> cutting edge, having a slight to pronounced regular curve, the curve
arching
> away from the cutting edge, and a grip possessing a closed guard.  I'd say
> that covers it.

That's a definition of one major type of sabre. A pretty good one, and if
you decide that straight swords are not sabres, excellent.

Trouble is, some people/nations don't/didn't accept that definition and
muddied the waters for us,

>>
> I'm sure that you are correct.  I no longer have my copy of
Haythornthwaite.
> I'd be interested to know the actual French designation.  Curiously, a
> search on the web shows that most sword sites mirror what I have been
> saysing.  With the exception of British and Empire swords, where sabers
are
> frequently straight bladed weapons, sabers are generally curved and
straight
> bladed weapons are known by another name.

I can't agrue here.

>
> It is a mystery, but it seems (oddly) that many nations (and references)
do
> refer to light, straight bladed weapons as 'swords', accepting the notion
> that sabers are curved.  We seem to be lacking a term here.

Seems that way. Though I've seen plenty of references to straight swords as
sabres. Is this just common usage bastardising a precise term, or is it
correct? I don't know. Was there ever a convention to establish one sort of
sword from another?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 00:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon May  6 23:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <B8FC8AB6.59F27%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00a701c1f593$d8c06690$3dd493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> It's no fun if we all agree, is it?  I suppose the appropriate way to
settle
> the debate would be a duel, but since several thousand miles intervene...

Very, very long weapons are called for,

>
> Besides, I'm sure you get much more practice fencing.  I manage a couple
of
> hours a week and no longer compete.  The 'gamesmanship' in competition
> fencing really bugs me.  It's like gaming with munchkins.  It's all about
> the points and winning.  I stopped fencing foil completely because of
> 'whipping'. Now if we took the points off, that might be interesting.
>

I teach about 6 hours a week. And all the other points are reasons why I no
longer compete, either. It's about getting a light on, not having a sword
fight. It's not for me.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 01:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May  7 00:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <00a701c1f593$d8c06690$3dd493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8FCCA3F.59F85%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

> 
> I teach about 6 hours a week. And all the other points are reasons why I no
> longer compete, either. It's about getting a light on, not having a sword
> fight. It's not for me.

As an aside, do you know much (anything) abut HACA, now called ARMA (The
Association for Renaissance Martial Arts)?  Just found out about them.
Looks interesting.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 01:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue May  7 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <B8FCCA3F.59F85%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <01fe01c1f597$1ecd6a90$3dd493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> > I teach about 6 hours a week. And all the other points are reasons why I
no
> > longer compete, either. It's about getting a light on, not having a
sword
> > fight. It's not for me.
>
> As an aside, do you know much (anything) abut HACA, now called ARMA (The
> Association for Renaissance Martial Arts)?  Just found out about them.
> Looks interesting.
>

Never heard of them.. but then I've not been looking...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 01:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May  7 00:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <01fe01c1f597$1ecd6a90$3dd493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <B8FCD345.59F8A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/7/02 12:15 AM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

>> As an aside, do you know much (anything) abut HACA, now called ARMA (The
>> Association for Renaissance Martial Arts)?  Just found out about them.
>> Looks interesting.
>> 
> 
> Never heard of them.. but then I've not been looking...
> 

http://www.thehaca.com
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 01:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue May  7 00:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <00a701c1f593$d8c06690$3dd493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEGHEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Doesn't the challenged part get choice of weapons?

If so meson guns at around fourthand miles.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MJ Dougherty
Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2002 2:52 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons



>
> It's no fun if we all agree, is it?  I suppose the appropriate way to
settle
> the debate would be a duel, but since several thousand miles intervene...

Very, very long weapons are called for,

>
> Besides, I'm sure you get much more practice fencing.  I manage a couple
of
> hours a week and no longer compete.  The 'gamesmanship' in competition
> fencing really bugs me.  It's like gaming with munchkins.  It's all about
> the points and winning.  I stopped fencing foil completely because of
> 'whipping'. Now if we took the points off, that might be interesting.
>

I teach about 6 hours a week. And all the other points are reasons why I no
longer compete, either. It's about getting a light on, not having a sword
fight. It's not for me.

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 03:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue May  7 02:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEGHEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEGJEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I of course meant

Doesn't the challenged party get choice of weapons?

If so meson guns at around four thousand miles.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 04:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue May  7 03:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] reRimwar, Fifth Frontier War, etc.
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKELECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKELECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3cd89dfd.4073828@post.demon.co.uk>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:

>I would like to see communication and intelligence addressed according =
to
>canon, too.  That is, communication and intelligence travel at the speed=
 of
>ships.  The player should not know whether a battle happened in a =
certain
>system until a ship comes from there with the news -- and ships out =
there
>should proceed with their orders until they receive new orders.
>
>How to make that work in a hex-and-counters game I haven't figured out.

The only real way would be PBEM, with one player per fleet and a
referee to hand out suitably "delayed" information on what the other
players are doing.  (Assuming each fleet and naval base has a supply
of J-6 couriers, so the news ripples out up to 6 parsecs per week.)

Of course, FFW handles this more abstractly by making you plot your
moves up to 5 turns in advance for each fleet.

As to how it would work in practice, I'd imagine:

Some navies would have everything set up to a strict timetable, and
nothing would be allowed to deviate from that.  "Week one, jump to
Gougeste and refuel.  Week two, jump to Lysen and coordinate with 28th
fleet for planetary assault, time allowed 3 weeks.  Week six, jump to
Grant".  Obviously, the more long-term and ambitious the plan, the
more chance it has of going horribly wrong.  Naval operations under
such a doctrine would therefore tend to be short and limited in aim,
with a pause between each phase of the offensive. The "WW1" approach.

Other navies would set their admirals free with a large amount of
discretion to go where they want and choose where and how to attack.
"Your area of operations shall be the rimward half of Jewell
subsector.  28th fleet is also operating in your region.  Your first
priority target is Lysen;  other targets at your discretion.  Good
luck, commander."   That would give more scope for decisive victories
and also for massive defeats, depending on the skill of the commander
and pure luck.  Under such a doctrine fleets would probably be as
concentrated as possible, rather than split into lots of independent
detachments, so the admiral can exercise better personal control.
Coordinated attacks with other fleets would be rare.  Battles would
tend to take place around natural choke points and assembly areas
where wandering fleets would tend to congregate.  The "Napoleonic"
approach.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 05:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue May  7 04:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Gs and KM/h
In-Reply-To: <9e.2610968a.2a072bdd@aol.com>
References: <9e.2610968a.2a072bdd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020507135247.3461ca9f.jenry023@student.liu.se>

MurfNMurf@aol.com wrote:
>    The problem I have is that the tables listing Gs and their KM/h 
> equivalents all seem to top out at 7Gs. Looking at said tables, I'm
unable to 
> find any sort of easy "1G is equal to X amount of KM/h".

That is because Gs is a measure of acceleration, while km/h is a measure
of velocity. A vessel capable of any acceleration at all can reach any
speed less than the speed of light if accelerating long enough.

Thus, you cannot convert between those two units, since they aren't
measures of the same thing.

I am not familiar with MT, but such a table would per definition not be
correct. If you are uncomfortable with the Newtonian physics and still
want to use the table, just make up values that "look good" for the higher
G ratings. That's what the designers of the table must have done
originally anyway.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 06:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue May  7 05:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Tax on Science Fiction
In-Reply-To: <3CD771D3.2C577323@mindspring.com>
References: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHOEFMCHAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
 <024801c1f2ad$7d8d22b0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
 <3CD3E6A7.F1027DDD@mindspring.com>
 <m3adretfb2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020507081816.00cc1be8@192.168.0.1>

At 02:18 AM 5/7/2002 -0400, alan spik wrote:
>"Robert Uhl " wrote:
> > alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com> writes:
> > > Unfortunately asking such a person politely seldom works. I would
> > > suggest a short hiatus for Mr. Sears, enforced by the listmom.
> > Ah, so you are an advocate of silencing those with whom you disagree,
> > or who express their opinions in a matter of which you do not approve?
> > Charming.  Germany's due east; you might prefer it there.  If you run
> > out of gas, there's always France.
> > > I hear enough of this language on the job.
> > Then you should be used to it.
> > I don't approve of his manner of posting either, FWIW.  The killfile
> > and the `D' key are excellent tools.  They remove someone from one's
> > own sphere while still allowing him to speak his piece to others.
>AHHrggggggg!!!!! I've become Jesse Helms! Rip out my brain and stomp on
>it.

Actually more like Senator Exxon (D-Neb), who was the driving force behind 
the so-called Communications Decency Act of 1995, but ya, we get what you 
mean. :-)


>Sgt. Savage appears out of the shadows and proceeds to do same.
>Yes. I wish we all had a think before you post key. Sorry. BTW I only
>suggested a hiatus. I haven't kill filed because I hope to get some
>ideas from Mr. Sears. He's already given me material for the solomani;).
>Also as an American I prefer to be tarred as a McCarthyite. And please,
>I wouldn't send Mr. Sears to France, so don't suggest it to me.

Ah...good game fodder is where you find it. :-)



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the
prosperity of a free state, the right of the people to
keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 06:28:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue May  7 05:28:08 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEGJEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <3CD7C80D.8561BFE5@premier.net>


Antony Farrell wrote:
> 
> I of course meant
> 
> Doesn't the challenged party get choice of weapons?
> 
> If so meson guns at around four thousand miles.

I believe it was Sam Clemens (a.k.a. Mark Twain) who suggested "Dynamite
at three paces" as choice of weapon for a duel.

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 06:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue May  7 05:30:04 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <008001c1f593$3dad74e0$3dd493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B8FC8985.59F24%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020507082511.01807bc0@192.168.0.1>

At 07:48 AM 5/7/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
[big honking snip]
> > It is a mystery, but it seems (oddly) that many nations (and references)
>do
> > refer to light, straight bladed weapons as 'swords', accepting the notion
> > that sabers are curved.  We seem to be lacking a term here.
>Seems that way. Though I've seen plenty of references to straight swords as
>sabres. Is this just common usage bastardising a precise term, or is it
>correct? I don't know. Was there ever a convention to establish one sort of
>sword from another?

My guess would be to get funding.  Submitting a bill for sabers for a 
cavalry unit would raise no eyebrows and get signed quickly.
"Colonel. These aren't sabers."
"No.  I want to men to use the point Damnit! Run their man through and kill 
him, not beat him like a carpet."
"But sir, supply will never sign off these.  They'll reassign them to 
Artillery."
"Well, the put down 'saber' on the paperwork.  Do I have think of everything?"


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Firm footwork is the fount from which springs all
offense and defense." -- Giacomo diGrasse, 1570
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 06:34:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue May  7 05:34:08 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <B8FC8985.59F24%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <00da01c1f55c$4762acd0$3dd593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CD8725D.5615.3466C1@localhost>

On 6 May 2002 at 19:27, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Agreed.  Both the foil and the epee have their origin with the
> swallsword. The foil is more removed as a weapon, having 'foiled'
> edges and much lighter construction.  The whole sport of foil fencing
> is clearly a sport as opposed to a martial art, with such ridiculous
> (from a fighting standpoint) notions as right-of-way, valid target
> areas and scoring by 'whipping' the point for a touch. 

Well the whipping of the point certainly is dumb, but the valid target 
areas make some sense if you're training people for duels to the death, 
which I was told by my instructor way-back-when was what the foil was 
originally for. The head's not a target because this was before good 
masks were around (or so I was told). As for right-of-attack, a friend 
of mine who moved from foil to epee said one of the first things he 
learnt (the hard way) was that while right of attack wasn't a law, it 
still made good sense because often if you chose not to observe it the 
best you could get was a mutual hit.
 
> I will amend my statement about the lethality of the foil and say
> that it is no more dangerous than a *sharpened* radio antenna (the
> non-collapsing type).  The fencing epee is significantly stronger,
> and stiff enough to pierce the skull, or resist bending if thrust
> between ribs 

Well broken foils kill people just fine, so the bendiness isn't that 
big a draw-back, though were I to turn a foil or epee into a serious 
weapon I'd go for the epee.

> I've has a broken foil accidentally jabbed into my chest.  I had a
> painful wound that required no more than a tetanus shot and a bandage
> for about a week.  Boy howdy, did it hurt though.  in facing a foil,
> I'd be inclined to just grab the blade, using an arm to parry (I've
> done this in theatrical fencing.  I recommend a glove.  Fencers on
> the list will know why.) 

This was a common technoque back before all those rules about fair play 
came in. IIRC it was one of the reasons it took so long for dueling 
weapons to lose their edges entirely.
 
> Most fencers, particularly foil fencers, never learn to 'drive home'
> and thus any thrust is likely to be weak.  Here's a little experiment
> to try if you can bear to grind the point of a foil (I've only tried
> this with an epee bladed theatrical sword.  What can I say, I'm a
> curious fellow.)  The next time you plan on having ribs for dinner,
> put them in a plastic bag and haul the raw ribs into the garage. 
> Hand the bag in front of a piece of cardboard and try a few lunges
> with your sharpened weapon.  See what it actually takes to make a
> mark into the cardboard.  It's not as easy as it seems, and takes a
> fairly forceful lunge. 

Hah. Obviously they didn't learn to fence in the club I used to belong 
to. It wasn't a real fight unless you had little five-cent coin sized 
bruises all over you, as far as we were concerned. There was also a 
school of thought that held that if you aimed for their spine it would 
a. make it harder for them to retreat out of reach, and b. less willing 
to keep at you because of all the bruises they gained. Of course in 
fact these people lost a lot because of being six inches or more closer 
than they needed to be, but in a real sword-fight (not a duel) I 
suspect they'd have been the ones walking away.
 
> (For those that are curious, I've conducted many interesting
> experiments on meat including hacking an old beef carcass with a
> bastard sword, and shooting many hunks of meat.  Quite revealing.  It
> helps to know a butcher who's a bit odd, too.) 

I just have a father with a farm and a similar sense of curiosity. From 
experience I can say that it's really easy to stick a knife into the 
side of a man-sized pig, and the only resistance was when the hilt hit 
the side of its chest. However when the knife runs into a rib it's a 
lot harder to drive in and having a slender blade makes a huge 
difference. When trying these sorts of experiments wear old clothes, 
especially if the animal is still alive, because you'll get messy, 
believe me.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May  7 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meat
Message-ID: <105.1554bccd.2a09294e@aol.com>

>(For those that are curious, I've conducted many interesting experiments on
>meat including hacking an old beef carcass with a bastard sword, and
>shooting many hunks of meat.  Quite revealing.

The US Army wound ballistics lab has shot a few thousand pigs over the years 
. . . they gave Frank a tour of the facility after the Desert Shield Factbook 
was published (the military LOVED that book).

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 07:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May  7 06:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #491 - 20 msgs
Message-ID: <3a.2667cc93.2a092a20@aol.com>

 >  Well, I decided to jump the broom and try Hotmail. Am I HTML free now?
 > -Ken-


Yes, but there is now a small advertisement attached:

>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


Each option has its price.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 07:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue May  7 06:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Hasty Words
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22784@USCHM203>

Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 14:32:14 -0700
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

> "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
>
> Vargr and Aslan societies may condone
>rather a lot more violence than human societies, given the greater =
physical
>toughness of those species and their predatory backgrounds --=20

Actually, the Vargr and Aslan might be less violent than humans, given =
that
they have natural weapons. I read a quote once on this topic, but can't
remember the source. It basically said unarmed humans can flail away at =
each
other without doing much damage, while aliens with natural weapons
can't.(Aslan have their highly ritualized code of etiquette for this =
very
reason, IIRC). Unfortunately, when humans move on to spears, swords, =
bows,
and guns, they still act out with the same level of aggressiveness, but =
with
much deadlier consequences.
	It's just a theory, of course.
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 7:57 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #490 - 21 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	tml-request@travellercentral.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: html (David Shayne)
   2. Re: html (Patrik Holmstr=F6m)
   3. Re: Hasty words (Stephen Tempest)
   4. New Campaign Setting: Alpha Quadrant (Jason Kemp)
   5. Re: Die-roller program (generalturokan@juno.com)
   6. RE: New Campaign Setting: Alpha Quadrant (Swordy)
   7. Re: New Campaign Setting: Alpha Quadrant =
(generalturokan@juno.com)
   8. Re: OT: Silly shop names (was: reloading example) (shadowcat)
   9. re Hasty words (Glenn M. Goffin)
  10. Testing Another Account For Non-MIME Msgs (Jason Kemp)
  11. RE: Testing Another Account For Non-MIME Msgs (Swordy)
  12. reRimwar, Fifth Frontier War, etc. (Glenn M. Goffin)
  13. Re: Scheduled Chats in #traveller (Undernet IRC) (Timothy Little)
  14. Plot Hook! (Alan Bradley)
  15. Re: re Hasty words (Tod Glenn)
  16. Re: Holidays (was Re: Hasty words) (Rupert Boleyn)
  17. Re: reRimwar, Fifth Frontier War, etc. (generalturokan@juno.com)
  18. Re: Hasty words (David Smart)
  19. Re: TA1 Edged weapons (Matthew Bond)
  20. Re: TA1 Edged weapons (Rupert Boleyn)
  21. Re: TA1 Edged weapons (Tod Glenn)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:25:22 -0500
From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] html
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

> From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 12:49:17 EDT

<snip>

>    I've tried numerous times to user just plain type, but according=20
> to the ever-glorious AOL, there's a glitch in their program which=20
> they're unable to fix. Hence the heinous html stuff. For awhile=20
> there, the list was striping MIMe fromat stuff from posts, which=20
> apparently made my stuff come out HTML-free. Help?

Dave's suggested fixes for AOL HTML bug.

1) Switch ISPs. Check around to see if there are any local ISPs that =
are
well thought of in your area. Barring that consider switching to one of
the other national online services.

This fix has the added benefit of increasing your internet apparent IQ.

2) If switching is not an option for you perhaps using one of the web
mail services for posting/reading mailing lists is a possibility.

I'm not positive that this fix will work as the web mail interface
may suffer from the same bug. There seems to be a feeling among the
people who provide email services that somehow people are clamoring=20
for the increased file size and ugly background pattern options that
only mime can provide.

David Shayne

--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "Patrik Holmstr=F6m" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] html
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 21:35:39 +0200
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
> > From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
> > Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 12:49:17 EDT
>2) If switching is not an option for you perhaps using one of the web
>mail services for posting/reading mailing lists is a possibility.
>
>I'm not positive that this fix will work as the web mail interface
>may suffer from the same bug. There seems to be a feeling among the
>people who provide email services that somehow people are clamoring
>for the increased file size and ugly background pattern options that
>only mime can provide.
>
>David Shayne

I use Hotmail without any problems and I believe several people post =
from=20
Yahoo accounts.

Patrik Holmstr=F6m <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:=20
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


--__--__--

Message: 3
From: tml@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Hasty words
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 19:54:21 GMT
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

generalturokan@juno.com writes:


>Along with that, the orbital days of all the varied planets. Yes a 365
>day calendar was made and adopted on world X in Z system. But X is =3D
having
>difficulty holding onto it because their orbit takes 421 days. =3D
Eventually
>X is going to lose track of their historical dates, not the Imperiums.

OK, kids, get ready, it's 11:36 and 15 seconds (a)... 16...17...18...
Happy Christmas!

Stephen
(a) Imperial Time

--__--__--

Message: 4
From: Jason Kemp <jason.kemp@S1.com>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 15:22:19 -0500=20
Subject: [TML] New Campaign Setting: Alpha Quadrant
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not =
understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C1F53B.B8F40540
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=3D"iso-8859-1"

Good afternoon, All,

First, I hope that this email goes out in just plain text format, as it =
is
intended to. If, however, it doesn't, please blame my use of MS Outlook =
and
my trust that 'plain text' format means exactly that.

Having once been more active on the list, and now lurking for some =
time,
I've gotten bitten by the bug once more, and am creating a new sector =
to
play in, inspired somewhat by Traveller Canon. Alpha Quadrant is placed
roughly four sectors spinward and six sectors rimward of the Solomani =
Rim,
roughly the same distance from Terra as Gvurrdon or Tuglikki sectors.

In this case, the everpopular Minor Human Race, the Corellians and Our
Heroes in this case, have only recently established a United Worlds =
Republic
after their third wave of expansions and explorations. The next door
neighbors of the Corellians are a small collection of Droyne worlds, =
the
last vestiges of the descendants of the Ancient(s) that once inhabited =
this
region before the Final War. (Grandfather still found him, though.) The
Corellians gained jump technology only through the reverse engineering =
of
Droyne starships that had crashed on the planet's surface. The Droyne, =
of
course, rediscovered jump technology from an Ancient site on one of =
their
local homeworlds, and technically are the only Major Race in the =
sector.

To coreward of the Republic lies the multi-subsector Magorn Empire and =
the
small yet technologically advanced Dendretic Coalition. Between the =
two, the
Republic is unable to expand coreward so has turned its attentions =
rimward.

The Magorn are a minor race that was given jump technology through =
contact
with Aslan seeking new territories. They are a very aggressive =
reptilian
race, and fill the niche of the honorable warrior race in this =
particular
setting.

The enigmatic Dendreti are a technologically advanced minor race that =
gained
jump technology through trade with the Droyne during a praytsirv's =
early
explorations beyond the Oytrip Yatroy. The Dendreti, a very curious =
people,
adapted to the technology very quickly and then began expanding. =
Somewhat
xenophobic and extremely territorial, the Dendreti jealously guard =
their
region in space, which has caused no end of friction with the warlike
Magorn. The Dendreti fill the same niche that the Hivers would in a =
broader
campaign.

I'm sure I'll throw in some minor races that have not travelled much =
beyond
their homeworld, depending on the worlds I've generated. (I'm using Jim =
V's
Galactic 2.4 and his homebrew UWP generation method, which defines a =
Life
score for defining the level of local life development. I can then =
glimpse
through those and determine the presence of homeworlds for native =
life.)

Most of the information I develop I will intentionally keep-ruleset
independent, but as my players are mostly 3E/d20 gamers, I'm looking =
forward
to using the new T20 rules when they come out. (If they don't work, I =
can
always fall back on CT/MT, my personal favorites.)

Any feedback, both positive and critical, is welcome.

My Two Credits,
Jason Kemp

------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C1F53B.B8F40540
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D3D"text/html; =3D
charset=3D3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D3D"MS Exchange Server version =3D
5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>New Campaign Setting: Alpha Quadrant</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>Good afternoon, All,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>First, I hope that this email goes out in just =
plain =3D
text format, as it is intended to. If, however, it doesn't, please =3D
blame my use of MS Outlook and my trust that 'plain text' format means =
=3D
exactly that.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>Having once been more active on the list, and now =
=3D
lurking for some time, I've gotten bitten by the bug once more, and am =
=3D
creating a new sector to play in, inspired somewhat by Traveller Canon. =
=3D
Alpha Quadrant is placed roughly four sectors spinward and six sectors =
=3D
rimward of the Solomani Rim, roughly the same distance from Terra as =
=3D
Gvurrdon or Tuglikki sectors.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>In this case, the everpopular Minor Human Race, the =
=3D
Corellians and Our Heroes in this case, have only recently established =
=3D
a United Worlds Republic after their third wave of expansions and =3D
explorations. The next door neighbors of the Corellians are a small =3D
collection of Droyne worlds, the last vestiges of the descendants of =
=3D
the Ancient(s) that once inhabited this region before the Final War. =
=3D
(Grandfather still found him, though.) The Corellians gained jump =3D
technology only through the reverse engineering of Droyne starships =3D
that had crashed on the planet's surface. The Droyne, of course, =3D
rediscovered jump technology from an Ancient site on one of their local =
=3D
homeworlds, and technically are the only Major Race in the =3D
sector.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>To coreward of the Republic lies the =
multi-subsector =3D
Magorn Empire and the small yet technologically advanced Dendretic =3D
Coalition. Between the two, the Republic is unable to expand coreward =
=3D
so has turned its attentions rimward.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>The Magorn are a minor race that was given jump =3D
technology through contact with Aslan seeking new territories. They are =
=3D
a very aggressive reptilian race, and fill the niche of the honorable =
=3D
warrior race in this particular setting.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>The enigmatic Dendreti are a technologically =
advanced =3D
minor race that gained jump technology through trade with the Droyne =
=3D
during a praytsirv's early explorations beyond the Oytrip Yatroy. The =
=3D
Dendreti, a very curious people, adapted to the technology very quickly =
=3D
and then began expanding. Somewhat xenophobic and extremely =3D
territorial, the Dendreti jealously guard their region in space, which =
=3D
has caused no end of friction with the warlike Magorn. The Dendreti =3D
fill the same niche that the Hivers would in a broader =3D
campaign.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>I'm sure I'll throw in some minor races that have =
not =3D
travelled much beyond their homeworld, depending on the worlds I've =3D
generated. (I'm using Jim V's Galactic 2.4 and his homebrew UWP =3D
generation method, which defines a Life score for defining the level of =
=3D
local life development. I can then glimpse through those and determine =
=3D
the presence of homeworlds for native life.)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>Most of the information I develop I will =3D
intentionally keep-ruleset independent, but as my players are mostly =
=3D
3E/d20 gamers, I'm looking forward to using the new T20 rules when they =
=3D
come out. (If they don't work, I can always fall back on CT/MT, my =3D
personal favorites.)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>Any feedback, both positive and critical, is =3D
welcome.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>My Two Credits,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>Jason Kemp</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C1F53B.B8F40540--

--__--__--

Message: 5
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 13:37:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [TML] Die-roller program
From: generalturokan@juno.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Andrew, Mexal, Greg.

On Mon, 6 May 2002 19:38:32 +1200 "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
>
> I've got one. It uses a primary and secondary die plus a mod. You=20
> can generate any number of primary and secondary dice. Anyone=20
> who wants it drop me an email. And if enough people want, I'll=20
> make it live in the sys tray and add a right click menu for quick=20
> die  selection (I've got the code for both, but never bothered to =
apply

> it).
>=20
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance

I'd like a copy please, thank you.:~)

On Mon, 6 May 2002 09:54 +0100 (BST) mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
(Megan Robertson) writes:
> In-Reply-To: <20020505.224041.-4627.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
> Greetings dear hearts, especially the General.
>=20
> When I have access to computer but not dice (unusual, there's a=20
> handful in  my pocket most of the time, and the main bag lives in the
case I use=20
> for  work as well as going out role-playing), I use=20
> http://www.irony.com/igroll.html
>=20
> Hugs and kisses,
>=20
> Mexal.

Thank you dear heart, my other problem is web use. I have free access
through Juno, but they seldom allow a connection except late at night. =
If
I paid, I'd get better service.
=20
On Mon, 6 May 2002 10:37:27 -0400 "Smith, Greg" <gsmith@Innolog.com>
writes:
> General:
>=20
> You can go to this website and use their dice roller if you wish...
> http://www.pbm.com/dice/
> You send an email to dice@pbm.com=20
> Greg Smith

Thanks Greg.

ObTrav:

TAS Agent: I'm sorry sir, but since your not one of our members, and =
you
refuse to pay, you'll just have to take your chances "On Standby" with
one of the tramp freighters.

Disgruntled flyer: But Miss, I've been bounced around in low berths for =
3
months now. Can't you do anything?

TAS Agent: Well sir, there is an experimental AI ship with low berth
room. It will be passing your destination. I could ask it if it'll take
you?

Disgruntled flyer: Ask it? Well, it seems weird, but go ahead.

TAS Agent: Hello HAL, .................


Turokan
..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   =
..=20
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--    =
=20
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   =
....=20
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   =
.=20
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 6
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] New Campaign Setting: Alpha Quadrant
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 16:46:44 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Still MIME. Oh, I suppose you meant the content :)

I'm going to be a bit negative and complain about the way you've tried =
to
balance things and make it seem familiar, like where you say, "The =
Dendreti
fill the same niche that the Hivers would in a broader campaign." Are =
you
trying to keep the OTU feel? But that is just me. I'm sick to death of =
the
OTU and anything that smells like it turns me right off. The fact that =
your
otherwise interesting new sector was "inspired somewhat by Traveller =
Canon"
pains me.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Jason Kemp

Any feedback, both positive and critical, is welcome.



--__--__--

Message: 7
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 13:51:50 -0700
Subject: Re: [TML] New Campaign Setting: Alpha Quadrant
From: generalturokan@juno.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



On Mon, 6 May 2002 15:22:19 -0500 Jason Kemp <jason.kemp@S1.com> =
writes:
> Good afternoon, All,
>=20
>  Having once been more active on the list, and now lurking for some=20
> time, I've gotten bitten by the bug once more, and am creating a new=20
> sector to play in, inspired somewhat by Traveller Canon.
> Jason Kemp

Welcome back to the bite :~)

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   =
..=20
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--    =
=20
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   =
....=20
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   =
.=20
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 12:51:16 -0500
Subject: Re: [TML] OT: Silly shop names (was: reloading example)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

my favorite all time sign no longer exists, it sat on a roadsign =
somewhere
along=20
Indiana Route 26
and read "Bobs Dog Obediance School and Taxidermy Shop"


--__--__--

Message: 9
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 14:32:14 -0700
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>If duelling exists IYTU, are there age-old rules?

I'll just talk briefly about the Imperium, and, to a lesser extent, the
Solomani Confederation, because I haven't thought about the issue in =
other
contexts much.  (To digress, however, Vargr and Aslan societies may =
condone
rather a lot more violence than human societies, given the greater =
physical
toughness of those species and their predatory backgrounds -- or is =
that
just pinkmonkeyboy racism on my part?)

The Vilani never developed a culture of duelling to settle affairs of =
honor
or for any other reason.  Although the Terrans had abandonned duelling =
long
before the development of jump drive, it was part of the =
re-establishment of
a quasi-feudal society in the Rule of Man era, and has remained a fact =
of
noble life in the Imperium and Solomani Confederation to the present =
day (ca
1100).

Imperial law is extremely limited in my Traveller universe.  Both its
civilian and military aspects, where they apply, forbid mutual affrays.

Local law, of course, is quite varied.  While the law of Regina =
prohibits
agreed mutual violence, the law of Efate (such as it is) does not.  So =
the
seconds of the Baron of Credo and the Baron of Marburg may agree that =
their
principals will meet in four weeks time at a certain spot on the =
surface of
Efate.  Now are they conspiring to violate Reginan law?  It depends on =
the
state of Reginan law.  Committing an act that is legal in the place =
where
committed normally will not constitute any sort of crime in another =
place,
even if the actor goes from that other place to the place where she =
will
commit the act -- but exceptions abound, particularly as law level
increases.

The standards and procedures for a duel of course are in the Code =
Duello,
committed to memory by every noble schoolboy.  I haven't written the =
57th
Century edition yet.

--Glenn




--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 14:40:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jason Kemp <flynnwd@yahoo.com>
To: Traveller Mailing List <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: [TML] Testing Another Account For Non-MIME Msgs
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hello, All,

Just testing another email account, to see if I can
work around the MIME issue.

Thanks for bearing with me,
Jason Kemp


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 11
From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Testing Another Account For Non-MIME Msgs
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 17:47:27 -0400
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Success!

May 2002 14:40:15 PDT
From: Jason Kemp <flynnwd@yahoo.com>
To: Traveller Mailing List <tml@travellercentral.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii

> -----Original Message-----
>
> Hello, All,
>
> Just testing another email account, to see if I can
> work around the MIME issue.
>
> Thanks for bearing with me,
> Jason Kemp



--__--__--

Message: 12
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 14:43:00 -0700
Subject: [TML] reRimwar, Fifth Frontier War, etc.
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>I would really like to see a major boardgame (in which you
>could design your fleets, say) so that we could recreate not
>just the major battles, but fight major wars.

I would like to see communication and intelligence addressed according =
to
canon, too.  That is, communication and intelligence travel at the =
speed of
ships.  The player should not know whether a battle happened in a =
certain
system until a ship comes from there with the news -- and ships out =
there
should proceed with their orders until they receive new orders.

How to make that work in a hex-and-counters game I haven't figured out.

--Glenn


--__--__--

Message: 13
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 08:15:52 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Scheduled Chats in #traveller (Undernet IRC)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> It used to happen; it hasn't in quite a while.  I think it would be
> nice if it did again.  Once every two weeks sounds good to me, if we
> can manage it.

Sounds good to me too.


> (1) Feedback on these ideas.

It looks like an excellent list of discussion topics.  Any of them
could lead to a productive and interesting chat session.  There's a
few I'm less interested in (e.g. miniatures), but then not everyone
has the same interests.


> (2) Ideas (and feedback on them) that aren't on this list.

I think that's quite a big enough list to begin with.  I don't think
you're in any danger of exhausting the conversions on those topics any
time soon.


> (3) Your feelings as to what the best days and times would be.

Weekend chats would probably be easiest to organise.  I could turn up
for a chat anytime between Friday 22:00 and Saturday 14:00, or between
Saturday 22:00 and Sunday 14:00 (all times and days in UTC).

For week days, any day between 07:00 and 12:00 UTC is good for me.
Probably a rather terrible time for americans, though :( The main
alternative for me would be to stop in briefly sometime between 21:30
and 22:30 UTC (before work).

Naturally any time you choose, it's going to be 4am *somewhere* in the
world.  Basically it comes down to deciding which timezone you want
4am to fall in, and hence which people will be effectively excluded.
(Usually it ends up being Australians and east Asians)


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 14
From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 08:33:01 +1000
Subject: [TML] Plot Hook!
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Here is a CNN news item that just shouts "Plot Hook!" at me.  "Dual-use
biotechnology" is a lovely concept.  Hmm.  "Dual-use nano-technology".
"Dual-use information technology".  "Dual-use automotive technology".  =
Sod
it:  just "Dual-use technology".

So, for our OBTRAV:  A world the Imperium doesn't like is trading with =
other
worlds it doesn't like.  The Imperium demands that they stop it!  Of =
course,
Our Heroes have just loaded up a cargo of "Dual-use technology"...

---------------------------------------------------
U.S.: Cuba sharing bioweapons technology
May 6, 2002 Posted: 1:49 PM EDT (1749 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A State Department official demanded Monday that =
Cuba
stop sharing biological weapons technology with nations unfriendly to =
the
United States and singled out Libya and Syria as being intent on =
acquiring
weapons of mass destruction.

"Cuba has provided dual-use biotechnology to other rogue states. We are
concerned that such technology could support BW [biological warfare]
programs in those states," said John Bolton, undersecretary of state =
for
arms control, in an advance copy of a speech that CNN obtained.

"We call on Cuba to cease all BW-applicable cooperation with rogue =
states
and to fully comply with all of its obligations under the Biological =
Weapons
Convention," Bolton told the Heritage Foundation, a Washington-based,
conservative think tank.

"Beyond the axis of evil, there are other rogue states intent on =
acquiring
weapons of mass destruction -- particularly biological weapons," he =
said.
<snipped>
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/05/06/cuba.weapons/index.html



--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:36:10 -0700
Subject: Re: [TML] re Hasty words
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

on 5/6/02 2:32 PM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

>=20
> The standards and procedures for a duel of course are in the Code =
Duello,
> committed to memory by every noble schoolboy.  I haven't written the =
57th
> Century edition yet.
>=20

Glenn, everyone else,

I've just posted the Irish "Code Duello" up at
http://www.travellercentral.com under house rules.

If anyone is interested.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



--__--__--

Message: 16
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Organization: Babel and Chaos
To: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>),
	tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 10:46:32 +1200
Subject: Re: [TML] Holidays (was Re: Hasty words)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On 6 May 2002 at 9:26, Robert Uhl wrote:

> Well, he does have a primacy of honour, as Constantinople was the
> chief city of the old empire.  And the last few have been trying to
> increase that, in order to prevent a repeat of 1821 (when the
> patriarch was hung from the door of the Phanar).  They have figured
> that if they can get their fingers in enough international pies and =
be
> seen as `Orthodox popes' then the Turks cannot do to the last few
> Greeks in Anatolia what they did to the Armenians a few decades back.

I thought the main reason Instanbul (Constantinople) had any sort of=20
primacy was that it's the oldest surviving patriarchy. If Jerusalem,=20
Bethlehem or Alexandria survived they'd be the senior patriarchies.

--=20
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


--__--__--

Message: 17
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 16:02:15 -0700
Subject: Re: [TML] reRimwar, Fifth Frontier War, etc.
From: generalturokan@juno.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



On Mon, 6 May 2002 14:43:00 -0700 "Glenn M. Goffin"
<gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
>=20
> I would like to see communication and intelligence addressed  =
according
to canon, too.  That is, communication and intelligence travel at the=20
speed of ships.  The player should not know whether a battle happened =
in
a  certain system until a ship comes from there with the news -- and
ships out  there should proceed with their orders until they receive =
new
orders.
>=20
> How to make that work in a hex-and-counters game I haven't figured=20
out.
>=20
> --Glenn

The usage of hex and counter with time is the key.

IMTU everything is run in real time. My own discipline keeps the order.
Even though you can see your opponants pieces, and he yours, you must
ignore the gut feeling that wants you to defend "a,b,c" but attack
"x,y,z." and stick with your orders - defend "m,n,o" until relieved by
the 101 Airborne Div..

If you have to. Add a few counters called "intel" and "comm." Send some
along with every operation, hold a lot back at HQ. As needed launch
either "ship" to report in, or to give new orders. Move them along your
flight plan only. Wait for responses, return to previous location using
the same flight plan.

This is how supplies and reinforcements move, and sometimes are =
captured
or destroyed. Just be disciplined about the unknown factors, ie: fly =
into
an enemy occupied parsec, you wouldn't have actually known that they
advanced. Fly into convoys, death, or your own fleet.

If you can't order someone to die, you have no business sitting in the
captain's chair.

Turokan

..       ...   ....   .-   .-..   .-..       -.   ---   -       -..   =
..=20
 .   --..--       -...   ..-   -       .-..   ..   ...-   .   --..--    =
=20
 .-   -.   -..       -..   .   -.-.   .-..   .-   .-.   .       -   =
....=20
 .       .--   ---   .-.   -.-   ...       ---   ..-.       -   ....   =
.=20
     .-..   ---   .-.   -..   .-.-.-


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 18
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 18:20:22 -0500
From: David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Hasty words
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Mikko V. I. Parviainen posted:
>=20
> As an aside, Christmas is called "joulu" in Finnish. We also use the
> letter 'j' for the sound which is written 'y' in English.
>=20
> We got it probably from Swedish, there it is "jul", pronounced =
something
> like 'yuul'.

Which, in turn, led to the English word "yuletide".

David S.

--__--__--

Message: 19
From: "Matthew Bond" <mattgbond@ntlworld.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 00:37:18 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

> Yes, some armies adopted what are more properly broadswords or =
backswords
> and called them sabers.  Technically, they are not, any more than a =
foil
is
> a weapon with a cutting edge.

Which seems to 'prove' the point that the Imperium can call smallswords
'foils' if they want. Why bother getting antsy about it... if RL =
Militaries
can call a broadsword a sabre, what does it matter?

Matt


--__--__--

Message: 20
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Organization: Babel and Chaos
To: "Matthew Bond" <mattgbond@ntlworld.com>, tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 11:50:59 +1200
Subject: Re: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On 7 May 2002 at 0:37, Matthew Bond wrote:

> > Yes, some armies adopted what are more properly broadswords or
> > backswords and called them sabers.  Technically, they are not, any
> > more than a foil is a weapon with a cutting edge.=20
>=20
> Which seems to 'prove' the point that the Imperium can call
> smallswords 'foils' if they want. Why bother getting antsy about
> it... if RL Militaries can call a broadsword a sabre, what does it
> matter?=20

I think the problem here is that Tod is using the weapon's form as it's =

defining feature, whereas the old militaries were using function -=20
those weapons were 'sabres' because they were cavalry weapons. Had they =

been infantry weapons they probably would've been 'swords' or=20
'broadswords'.

--=20
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


--__--__--

Message: 21
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 16:56:06 -0700
Subject: Re: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

on 5/6/02 4:37 PM, Matthew Bond at mattgbond@ntlworld.com wrote:

> Which seems to 'prove' the point that the Imperium can call =
smallswords
> 'foils' if they want. Why bother getting antsy about it... if RL
Militaries
> can call a broadsword a sabre, what does it matter?
>=20

It doesn't matter.  But we are talking about 'canon', which smacks of
religiosity.  If the Christian church can split over a single word, why
can't us pedants have our rants?

Anyone can call anything whatever they want. Most non-gamers I know =
insist
on calling all role playing games "D&D".  To them Traveller is "D&D".  =
I'm
sure that many people on this list might take issue with that.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org




--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 07:09:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue May  7 06:09:13 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <00da01c1f55c$4762acd0$3dd593c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <3CD8725D.5615.3466C1@localhost>
Message-ID: <02df01c1f5c8$4005a2a0$3dd493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>

>
> Well the whipping of the point certainly is dumb, but the valid target
> areas make some sense if you're training people for duels to the death,
> which I was told by my instructor way-back-when was what the foil was
> originally for.

Yes, a sword that light in the arm or leg would propabbly not "stop" an
opponent....

>The head's not a target because this was before good
> masks were around (or so I was told). As for right-of-attack, a friend
> of mine who moved from foil to epee said one of the first things he
> learnt (the hard way) was that while right of attack wasn't a law, it
> still made good sense because often if you chose not to observe it the
> best you could get was a mutual hit.

Or, as it's known around here, a "chug" right in the forehead.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 07:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue May  7 06:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIELECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020507093711.01ee5440@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:32 PM 5/6/2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>Committing an act that is legal in the place where committed normally will 
>not constitute any sort of crime in another place, even if the actor goes 
>from that other place to the place where she will commit the act

I'd say that this is a key tenet of Imperial law: while worlds may make 
(nearly) whatever laws they wish, they cannot extend the reach of their law 
across interstellar space.  Thus you cannot be convicted on Regina for an 
activity that took place on Efate.

The exception that I can think of is the concept of conspiracy to commit a 
crime.  Thus, if an both act and conspiracy to commit that act are illegal 
on Regina (but not on Efate), then a resident of Regina cannot be convicted 
for going to Efate, commit the crime, and returning to Regina.  However, if 
the purpose of the trip is solely to commit the crime, and if some or all 
of the planning of the crime took place on Regina, a conviction for 
conspiracy to commit a crime could stick.

On top of this, I'd also suggest that certain acts (such as murder) are 
Imperial crimes, and illegal everywhere.  Thus, even if dueling is allowed 
on Efate, if someone actually kills their opponent, they can be convicted 
of murder regardless of where the crime was committed.  Since even Imperial 
crimes are usually tried by planetary legal systems, there may be benefits 
or drawbacks to having the trial on Efate versus Regina.  These trade-offs 
could consist of procedural issues (rules of evidence, presumption of 
innocence or guilt), or allowable punishments (perhaps Efate still has the 
death penalty, while Regina doesn't).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 08:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Tue May  7 07:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Silly shop names (was: reloading example)
References: <3CD67C44.4545.733DA@localhost>
Message-ID: <123b01c1f5d2$907616c0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

Here in Taylor, Michigan, the city of taylor has a sign out side some
government building that reads

City of Taylor
Animal Shelter and Gun Range

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] OT: Silly shop names (was: reloading example)


> my favorite all time sign no longer exists, it sat on a roadsign somewhere
along
> Indiana Route 26
> and read "Bobs Dog Obediance School and Taxidermy Shop"
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 08:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May  7 07:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020507093711.01ee5440@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <B8FD33BC.59FAD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/7/02 6:50 AM, Derek Wildstar at wildstar@qrc.com wrote:

> At 05:32 PM 5/6/2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>> Committing an act that is legal in the place where committed normally will
>> not constitute any sort of crime in another place, even if the actor goes
>> from that other place to the place where she will commit the act
> 
> I'd say that this is a key tenet of Imperial law: while worlds may make
> (nearly) whatever laws they wish, they cannot extend the reach of their law
> across interstellar space.  Thus you cannot be convicted on Regina for an
> activity that took place on Efate.

Think about the impact this would have.  It would be like eliminating all
extradition laws on earth. Anyone could commit any crime, and so long as
they got to a ship, and left system, they would be safe.
> 
> The exception that I can think of is the concept of conspiracy to commit a
> crime.  

Try proving conspiracy in a court.  It's pretty difficult, but maybe the
Imperium's laws make it easier.

> Thus, if an both act and conspiracy to commit that act are illegal
> on Regina (but not on Efate), then a resident of Regina cannot be convicted
> for going to Efate, commit the crime, and returning to Regina.  However, if
> the purpose of the trip is solely to commit the crime, and if some or all
> of the planning of the crime took place on Regina, a conviction for
> conspiracy to commit a crime could stick.
> 
> On top of this, I'd also suggest that certain acts (such as murder) are
> Imperial crimes, and illegal everywhere.  Thus, even if dueling is allowed
> on Efate, if someone actually kills their opponent, they can be convicted
> of murder regardless of where the crime was committed.

That means the Imperium must define what murder is.  For example, in some
states, during the 19th century, specifically excepted 'mutual combat' from
the murder statutes.  Thus, in killing someone in a duel, the duelist could
not be convicted of 'murder'

> Since even Imperial
> crimes are usually tried by planetary legal systems, there may be benefits
> or drawbacks to having the trial on Efate versus Regina.  These trade-offs
> could consist of procedural issues (rules of evidence, presumption of
> innocence or guilt), or allowable punishments (perhaps Efate still has the
> death penalty, while Regina doesn't).

See above.  Is this an Imperial crime, or a local one?  If you require
trying the individual by the local authority, you're going to get wildly
variable results.  The locals may not even want to bother.  They may not see
that act as a crime, particularly in the case of something like dueling.
Why should local authorities even bother with enforcing Imperial law?  Isn't
that what they pay their taxes to the Imperium for.

(I'm speaking semi-humorously here.  My wife is in federal law enforcement
and I have to listen to her complain about this kind of stuff constantly.)
There's a reason that the federal government maintains its own judicial
systems and doesn't rely on the states to try its prisoners.  In the case of
the Imperium, the member worlds are even more diverse than the US states.

Let's look at a real world example.  Replace the UN with something we now
call the 'Imperium'.  The UN is going to adopt a set of uniform laws which
make certain crimes unlawful anywhere in the Imperium.  But trying the cases
will be left up to the member states.  Interesting image, eh?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 08:44:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May  7 07:44:20 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <B8FCD345.59F8A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8FD3641.59FB1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

A thought occurs.

In all the discussion of edged weapons, there has been no mention of new
weapons that have doubtlessly been introduced.  While we've been arguing
about what a foil or sabre is, no one has suggested any new (old) traveller
weapons.

What about historical Vilani weapons.  I'm sure there must be dozens.  Why
do we assume the ascendancy of Terran, indeed western European edged
weapons.  Perhaps the Hunga-Munga is the noble badge of rank in the 3I.

There are lots of people out their designing guns.  What about edged
weapons?
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 08:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue May  7 07:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Hasty Words
Message-ID: <200205071446.FVA23713@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hurrel, Brian" says
>Actually, the Vargr and Aslan might be less violent than 
>humans, given that they have natural weapons. I read a quote 
>once on this topic, but can't remember the source. It 
>basically said unarmed humans can flail away at each
>other without doing much damage, while aliens with natural 
>weapons can't.(Aslan have their highly ritualized code of 
>etiquette for this very
>reason, IIRC).

Tell that to my cat.  He's wounded several cats in the 
neighborhood, and killed one.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 08:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue May  7 07:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
Message-ID: <200205071454.FVA25090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn writes:
>In all the discussion of edged weapons, there has been no 
>mention of new weapons that have doubtlessly been 
>introduced.  While we've been arguing about what a foil or 
>sabre is, no one has suggested any new (old) traveller
>weapons.
>

Well, it looks like IMTU, Laning has introduced the 
Unobtanium Ceremonial/Practical Battle Axe as a new standard 
for Battle Dress-equipped Marines.

I can see the ranks of theImperial Marine Honor Guard, 
standing there at attention in their powered armor, the 
bronze glint of their battle axes shining.  That, and the 
faceless faceplate with an evil red glint of the short range 
anti-personnel laser scanning slowly back and forth.

That, and all those unarmored people standing around with 
their foils, smallswords, and such.  The battle axe, 
especially if it has a reinforced butt on the handle, might 
be an interesting crowd control weapon.  Would you want to be 
a rioter if the Marines suddenly got the order "Axes Only! 
Draw and Advance!"
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 09:11:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May  7 08:11:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <200205071454.FVA25090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8FD3C82.59FB7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/7/02 7:54 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> Well, it looks like IMTU, Laning has introduced the
> Unobtanium Ceremonial/Practical Battle Axe as a new standard
> for Battle Dress-equipped Marines.
> 
> I can see the ranks of theImperial Marine Honor Guard,
> standing there at attention in their powered armor, the
> bronze glint of their battle axes shining.  That, and the
> faceless faceplate with an evil red glint of the short range
> anti-personnel laser scanning slowly back and forth.
> 
> That, and all those unarmored people standing around with
> their foils, smallswords, and such.  The battle axe,
> especially if it has a reinforced butt on the handle, might
> be an interesting crowd control weapon.  Would you want to be
> a rioter if the Marines suddenly got the order "Axes Only!
> Draw and Advance!"

Yes, interesting.  But still a 'western' weapon.  How about something more
exotic?  What about alien melee weapons?  Of the high-tech influence.  Star
wars had it's 'light saber'.  As I look through Burton's "Book of the sword"
I see lots of potential, and this is just sword variations.

Dueling with assegai anyone?  Sjamboks?  (The only true weapon for a
gentlebeing). Neural whips at 5 paces?

A duel in a foreign place could be really interesting.  "Gentleman, select
your bola, turn and advance 10 paces."

What are you thoughts?


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 09:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Kemp)
Date: Tue May  7 08:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] World Entry: Taka (Alpha Quadrant 0827)
Message-ID: <20020507151224.40470.qmail@web11206.mail.yahoo.com>

My Fellow Sophonts,

Here's one of my first basic world write-ups for the Alpha Quadrant,
detailing in part a race of sentient plants that control their planet
entirely, and what first contact with the Corellian explorers must have
been like. It's very rough still, and will undoubtedly go through a few
generations before I find the final version I'm happy with, but I
submit it for your feedback, both constructive and critical.

Thanks In Advance,
Jason Kemp

* * * * *
Taka (Alpha Quadrant 0827 X424621-2)

This frontier world is home to a race of psionic plant-like sophonts
known collectively as the Takai. The Takai receive most of their
dietary needs through a photo-chemical process similar to
photosynthesis, supplemented by chemical leeching of more mobile animal
life through tendrils that lie about their bulbous base. The Takai's
strong psionic capacities originally evolved as a means of luring prey
into the region of their tendrils. Sentience proved to be a secondary
by-product associated with the increase in psionic talents of the
Takai.

As the Takai evolved and learned to communicate telepathically, they
began to work together, developing a rudimentary society. Due to their
telepathic nature, the Takai began to operate by concensus, to avoid
the shared pain and suffering that a near-group mind can generate. They
worked together to control their environment and support one another
mutually, controlling the local fauna as other races would use tools to
manipulate their environment.

Despite the lower technology level of the Takai's homeworld, they have
developed a rich and complex social structure. The Takai owe much of
their success as a species to their mastery of the local wildlife. The
animal servitors performed physical tasks for the Takai, cultivating
the land, bearing seedlings to better environments, and when their
service was over, they would serve to supplement the photo-chemical
processes of the Takai.

When Corellian explorers from the United Worlds Republic landed on
Taka, the Takai were astounded at the new minds that had arrived from
beyond the skies. Although they were weak comparatively to the Takai,
the Corellians were different. They moved as the animal servitors do,
but had complex thoughts like the Takai. The sentient flora were
intrigued, and penetrated the minds of these 'humans' to learn more of
their kind. Sadly, two of the first exploration team died of
asphyxiation when their life support systems failed before the Takai
realized that the humans needed to breathe air of a different chemical
composition. The Takai released the humans from their mental control,
allowing them to return to their ship. Once onboard, the remaining crew
quickly plotted an automated departure, and left the mind controlled
planet behind.

For the most part, explorers have since left Taka alone. Only in recent
year have the Republic Scouts begun efforts to recontact the Takai,
sending teams specifically trained in psionic defenses to initiate
limited contact with the psionic plantlife that controls the planet. In
the decades between first contact and recent efforts, the Takai have
formed many opinions about the nature of the Minds From Beyond, and are
making less invasive efforts to communicate with and learn from these
strange creatures.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 09:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Tue May  7 08:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <B8FD3641.59FB1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8FD3641.59FB1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <02050717354908.14298@avlendris>

On Tuesday 07 May 2002 15:44, you wrote:
> A thought occurs.
>
> In all the discussion of edged weapons, there has been no mention of new
> weapons that have doubtlessly been introduced.  While we've been arguing
> about what a foil or sabre is, no one has suggested any new (old) traveller
> weapons.

I dunno... i'd say the development of melee weapons, apart maybe for subdual 
or crowd control, would stop by the time a "modern day" equivalent in tech is 
acheived... unless personal armour develops to a point where missile weapons 
are useless against it but somehow melee weapons are not (kinda like the 
force fields in "Dune"). 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 10:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Tue May  7 09:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
Message-ID: <F58sPkskqedC8mOLSSP0000e3ae@hotmail.com>

   I don't see the trouble here. Citizen Sears got on a tangent involving RW 
politics. Folks are often *very* passionate (or sometimes *overly* so)about 
their RW politics and religion :)
   I guess someone should've pointed out earlier-on that the entire subject 
wasn't really Ob Traveller by *any* stretch of the imagination. But as 
nobody *did*, others got equally passionate, and felt compelled to share 
their equally OT RW political views.
   If Citizen Sears is in line for ostrasization(sic?) for OT ranting,the 
line for such behavior stretches *long* past him.
   I found the entire exchange seriously OT and dull myself, and was hoping 
it'd end *sooner* than it did, but oh well... :)
  -Ken-

   Be Fiann-valourous in your wounding exploits!



_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 10:12:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May  7 09:12:09 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <02050717354908.14298@avlendris>
Message-ID: <B8FD4AB9.59FC1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/7/02 9:35 AM, Brian Caball at boc@raidtec.ie wrote:

> On Tuesday 07 May 2002 15:44, you wrote:
>> A thought occurs.
>> 
>> In all the discussion of edged weapons, there has been no mention of new
>> weapons that have doubtlessly been introduced.  While we've been arguing
>> about what a foil or sabre is, no one has suggested any new (old) traveller
>> weapons.
> 
> I dunno... i'd say the development of melee weapons, apart maybe for subdual
> or crowd control, would stop by the time a "modern day" equivalent in tech is
> acheived... unless personal armour develops to a point where missile weapons
> are useless against it but somehow melee weapons are not (kinda like the
> force fields in "Dune").

True, but what about melee weapons that evolved on Vland, or Zhodane or any
of a countless number of worlds before the preeminence of missile weapons?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 10:27:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue May  7 09:27:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Anecdote WRT the blade wpn discussions
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKELGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>Fat chance. Some idiot from another platoon decided that he was an expert,
>and was showing off by flipping his bayonet in the air and catching it. Did
>this successfully twice.  On the third thrown, the blade hit point down,
>and went all the way through his palm.

That counts as a successful catch, I think.  I'm to rip this anecdote off
and throw it into my current campaign as soon as possible.  Thanks, Doug!
Truth is always the best source of fiction.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 10:28:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue May  7 09:28:20 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

>It's a rare role player who carries a 'sword or revolver'.  Oh,
>no.  It has to be an elvin blade made by the master Durosh the younger and
>carried in a dragon skin scabbard, or else a KillTech 88 magnum with laser

That's true of referees as much as players.  I gave my players a detailed
description of the standard issue sidearm for the Regina Subsector Special
Police in terms of manufacturer, sources (Imperial military surplus), price,
colors available, nicks and scratches, etc., but in terms of game
statistics, they are the archetypal "auto pistol".

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 10:35:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue May  7 09:35:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TA1 Edged weapons
Message-ID: <3CD8017A.C6B95F1E@mail.cswnet.com>

I'm arriving late to this thread, but I do have a question.

Why is it that Nobles generally have foils?
Why not Battle Axes? Is it just something traditional?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 10:37:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue May  7 09:37:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Anti-Imperial sentiments in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAELHCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "tmixon" <tmixon@houston.rr.com>
>Subject: [TML] Anti-Imperial sentiments in the Imperium  (was: Tax on
Science Fiction)
>
>How well do the Imperials tolerate dissenting views IYTU? Are they
>allowed to speak publicly to urge the overthrow of the Imperium? What
>hot buttons will get people watched by the Imperials and what is
>acceptable?

It depends.  The closer to Capital and the higher one's rank, the more
likely one is under some level of Imperial surveillance anyway.  If, not to
give too specific an example, an archduke advocated conversion of the
Imperium to a democratic state, he might find that he can no longer get an
audience with the Emperor, and his health might even start to fail.  On the
other hand, advocacy of some decentralization and alteration of the balance
of power within the existing structure might only lead to circulation of
intelligence memoranda and placement on a watch list.

On the other hand, a construction worker out in the Marches advocating
independence for Regina and Jewell subsectors and establishment therein of
an anarcho-syndicalist commune with freedom of choice as to psionics might
just be dismissed as another crackpot, if he's noticed at all, at least
until he and his group start trying to overthrow the government of Efate and
bombing L-hyd tank facilities.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 10:38:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue May  7 09:38:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hasty words
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCELHCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>Bruce is absolutely right. Now, if the challenged party had a right to a
>state-appointed champion, it might be different... ;-

Did everyone love Ben Bova's The Duelling Machine as much as I did?

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 10:41:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue May  7 09:41:15 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020507093711.01ee5440@mail.qrc.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020507093711.01ee5440@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <m31ycn9ajr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> writes:
> 
> On top of this, I'd also suggest that certain acts (such as murder)
> are Imperial crimes, and illegal everywhere.

I'd disagree.  In the US (a much more centralised government than the
3I), murder is not a federal crime.  I see no reason for the Imperium
to _care_ when one of its quintillions of sophonts is murdered.  It'll
care about treason (an act against the Imperium itself), but not about
murder.  Heck, trade war is nothing but murder and destruction, but
that's allowed--some say encouraged.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Resurrexit!  Vere Resurrexit!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 10:44:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue May  7 09:44:14 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <B8FD3641.59FB1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020789785.113.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:

> In all the discussion of edged weapons, there has been no mention of new
> weapons that have doubtlessly been introduced.  While we've been arguing
> about what a foil or sabre is, no one has suggested any new (old) traveller
> weapons.

Mostly because (a) we don't have much idea of what would be different, and (b)
the mechanics of combat pretty much define what a useful sword will look like.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 10:47:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue May  7 09:47:08 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <B8FD33BC.59FAD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8FD33BC.59FAD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3wuuf7vqk.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> > I'd say that this is a key tenet of Imperial law: while worlds may make
> > (nearly) whatever laws they wish, they cannot extend the reach of their law
> > across interstellar space.  Thus you cannot be convicted on Regina for an
> > activity that took place on Efate.
> 
> Think about the impact this would have.  It would be like eliminating all
> extradition laws on earth. Anyone could commit any crime, and so long as
> they got to a ship, and left system, they would be safe.

No--it's much like the current situation between countries.  If I kill
someone in Turkmenistan, and the Turkmenis don't care (I'm an
executioner, or I'm pardoned or what-have-you), then I can return home
to Denver and neither the City & County of Denver, nor the State of
Colorado, nor the United States Government will particularly care.

Eliminating extradition is another thing entirely.  Extradition means
that if I kill someone in Turkmenistan and skip town, and they care,
then they file a complaint with the US Government, which goes down to
Denver, picks me up and puts me on the first plane back.

I happen to think, though, that in many cases the scenario you painted
is exactly the way things are in the Traveller universe--much like
things used to be in America (when one could just change states and
start over).  It simply costs too much to go after someone for minor
affairs.  Just let the drop that is him be lost in the sea of the
Imperial populace, 'cause finding him will be as easy as finding a
drop in the coean.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos harjav i merelotz!  Orhniale harutjun Christosi!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 10:49:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue May  7 09:49:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Unintended Consequences
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKELHCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com>
>
>Moral of the story? Never stand up fast from the
>toilet when something in the bowl blinks at you,
>especially if have a GM with a sadistic sense of
>humor.

And people say Call of Cthulhu is too dark a game!

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 10:51:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue May  7 09:51:11 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Wargame Rules: slightly OT, plus a link...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELHCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     The link: http://www.freewargamesrules.co.uk/
>

Thank you for posting the URL to this fascinating site. I'll be wastin....
spending considerable time there soon.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 10:52:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May  7 09:52:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <3CD8017A.C6B95F1E@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <B8FD5355.5A2BD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/7/02 9:31 AM, Roseberry at rosebee@mail.cswnet.com wrote:

> I'm arriving late to this thread, but I do have a question.
> 
> Why is it that Nobles generally have foils?
> Why not Battle Axes? Is it just something traditional?
> 

I just started a new thread (Melee weapons of the Imperium) that speaks to
this question (if obliquely).  Why foils, or any 'traditional'  western
European weapons.  Why not a Hunga-Munga or Sjambok or something even more
strange?

"You can tell he's a noble.  Only a man of noble birth may carry the
Nunchaku."  

I'm amused by the idea of the whip or sjambok as a badge of noble office.
It seems more appropriate. I'm curious to see what kind of weapons we could
create for "Melee Weapons of the Imperium".

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 10:54:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue May  7 09:54:06 2002
Subject: [TML] GT ship question
Message-ID: <3CD804EF.6EDBF8DD@mail.cswnet.com>

In calculating the cost for compartmentalization, what 
figure do I use for Hull mass?

A. Hull mass by it self [ex: 100dt usl hull would be 10t]
B. Hull mass and armor
C. Empty mass of the whole ship
D. Loaded mass of the whole ship

Thanks in advance,

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 10:56:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue May  7 09:56:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <B8FD3C82.59FB7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020507165146.62497.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>
> A duel in a foreign place could be really
> interesting.  "Gentleman, select
> your bola, turn and advance 10 paces."
> 
> What are you thoughts?

Weapons would be similar.  While a Vilani may call it
a glushii, we call it a sword.  At least to the common
man.  Enthusiasts such as you and MJ and others would
of course be able to tell the difference.

I see the differences in the duel itself.  Why is is
10 paces?  I could see worlds where the duel is common
and accepted having deuling arenas somewhat like a
laser tag arena.  Or even old Roman gladiator style
arenas.

As far as alien, I see the Vilani and Aslan as being
very formal in their deuling.  The difference is that
the Vilani have many rules to level the playing field
(prevent the bully from overrunning) while the Aslan
would be more concerned with the honor involved. 
Also, I see the Aslan being much more lethal than the
Vilani.

The Vargr would be more "old west" style, IMHO.  From
my limited "monkeyboy" vision I see them as more
anarchic.  No real rules, almost Klingon style.  If I
get offended I jump you.  Either now, or later when I
think I can win.  But again, I don't see it as
necessarily to the death, but (again like the
Klingons) a way to establish the pecking order.

Zhodani don't allow the commoners to deul, it isn't
good for morale.  The nobles duel with their minds
maybe?

The Hiver manipulate others to deul for them.

The K'kree use lances and a very large field.

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 11:05:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue May  7 10:05:28 2002
Subject: [TML] GT ship question
In-Reply-To: <3CD804EF.6EDBF8DD@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020791019.7515.ajackson@ping>

Roseberry writes:
> In calculating the cost for compartmentalization, what 
> figure do I use for Hull mass?
> 
> A. Hull mass by it self [ex: 100dt usl hull would be 10t]
Yes.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 11:07:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May  7 10:07:28 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <m31ycn9ajr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B8FD5720.5A2C9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/7/02 9:39 AM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> writes:
>> 
>> On top of this, I'd also suggest that certain acts (such as murder)
>> are Imperial crimes, and illegal everywhere.
> 
> I'd disagree.  In the US (a much more centralised government than the
> 3I), murder is not a federal crime.

Ah, but it can be.  Under civil rights violations.  You're depriving someone
of their civil rights.  This fig leaf was used to justify federal
intervention into racial murders that occurred in the south in the 1960s,
IIRC.

Governments can usually justify any action if required, even under the color
of law. (Please note I am not complaining about the government's involvement
in the investigation of racially motivated murder.  Don't flame me)

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 11:11:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May  7 10:11:09 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1020789785.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B8FD589D.5A2CB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/7/02 9:43 AM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

>> In all the discussion of edged weapons, there has been no mention of new
>> weapons that have doubtlessly been introduced.  While we've been arguing
>> about what a foil or sabre is, no one has suggested any new (old) traveller
>> weapons.
> 
> Mostly because (a) we don't have much idea of what would be different, and (b)
> the mechanics of combat pretty much define what a useful sword will look like.

I thought that too, but a quick perusal of some non-western weapons shows
that this still allows for a wide variation, and to a large extent, the
weapons will define the character of combat.  One need only look at the
difference in style between Japanese  kendo and European fencing.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 11:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May  7 10:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020507165146.62497.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8FD5A64.5A2CE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/7/02 9:51 AM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:

> --- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>> 
>> A duel in a foreign place could be really
>> interesting.  "Gentleman, select
>> your bola, turn and advance 10 paces."
>> 
>> What are you thoughts?
> 
> Weapons would be similar.  While a Vilani may call it
> a glushii, we call it a sword.  At least to the common
> man.  Enthusiasts such as you and MJ and others would
> of course be able to tell the difference.

Why?  Why not have radically different weapons?  And styles of combat
dictated by those weapons.  A Hunga-Munga is a very different weapon than a
knife, sword, axe or any other weapon.
> 
> I see the differences in the duel itself.  Why is is
> 10 paces?  I could see worlds where the duel is common
> and accepted having deuling arenas somewhat like a
> laser tag arena.  Or even old Roman gladiator style
> arenas.

According to the Code Duello, distance was a matter of choice, although with
melee weapons this will be determined by the reach of the weapon.  Some
duels with pistols took place a touching distance.
> 
> As far as alien, I see the Vilani and Aslan as being
> very formal in their deuling.  The difference is that
> the Vilani have many rules to level the playing field
> (prevent the bully from overrunning) while the Aslan
> would be more concerned with the honor involved.
> Also, I see the Aslan being much more lethal than the
> Vilani.

Interesting, although being derived from terran animal stock it should be
noted that animals have fairly rigidly defined 'rules' for dominance combat.
It is very rarely lethal.
> 
> The Vargr would be more "old west" style, IMHO.  From
> my limited "monkeyboy" vision I see them as more
> anarchic.  No real rules, almost Klingon style.  If I
> get offended I jump you.  Either now, or later when I
> think I can win.  But again, I don't see it as
> necessarily to the death, but (again like the
> Klingons) a way to establish the pecking order.

See above.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 11:42:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Tue May  7 10:42:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: World Entry: Taka (Alpha Quadrant 0827) (Jason Kemp)
Message-ID: <20020507174156.52294.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>

Very rough indeed! Seems quite polished to me upon a
quick read. It reads quite well and is a good start,
even sufficient as it stands actually for a Library
style entry. Two things bug me:

First, and no slight to yourself or plagiarism
implied, but it seems very familiar to me though I
can't place the author offhand. Not too surprising
actually (that I can't nail it down, and  that you'd
have a similar idea) as many of my own game ideas are
drawn, often subconsciously but not always, from my
somewhat  extensive and diverse reading habits. I'm
also a strong believer in identical independent
invention, but suspect all such claims, especially my
own ;-)

Second, I'm uncomfortable with the use of Corellian
for obvious reasons but its your universe so ignore that.

______________________________________________________________________ 
Games, Movies, Music & Sports! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 11:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue May  7 10:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <F58sPkskqedC8mOLSSP0000e3ae@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD8152B.6020300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Ken Murphy wrote:
>   I don't see the trouble here. Citizen Sears got on a tangent involving 
> RW politics. Folks are often *very* passionate (or sometimes *overly* 
> so)about their RW politics and religion :)

Citizen Sears isn't under fire because he got 'passionate'.

It's because he ressurected a weeks-old and almost forgotten off-topic 
post in loud, juvenile, boorish and profane fashion, then acted like a 
spoilt child when we called him on it.

Moreover, this is not the first time he has behaved that way.

He may have a first amendment right to speak, and were this a government 
-run e-mail list it would indeed be unconstitutional to bar him.

It is not.

It is a private list, hosted on a private server, and this is most 
assuredly *not* a democracy.

It is a benevolent (though some might say charismatic ;-) dictatorship. 
Tod has the absolute right to say who is and isn't allowed on the list.

Mr. Sears is entirely free to rant and rave on a soapbox on a street 
corner; he does not have that corresponding right in a private residence.

Were he a guest of mine, and he spoke to others like that under *my* 
roof, he'd be rather forcibly ejected. Then *he'd* have to get over it.

He is here, we are _all_ here at Mr. Glenn's sufferance.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 12:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue May  7 11:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
Message-ID: <20020507175946.10FDE4529@mo110usjc.palm.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>on 5/7/02 7:54 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote: 
 >> The battle axe, 
>> especially if it has a reinforced butt on the handle, might 
>> be an interesting crowd control weapon.  Would you want to be 
>> a rioter if the Marines suddenly got the order "Axes Only! 
>> Draw and Advance!" 
>Yes, interesting.  But still a 'western' weapon.  How about something more 
>exotic?  What about alien melee weapons?  Of the high-tech influence.  Star 
>wars had it's 'light saber'.  As I look through Burton's "Book of the sword" 
>I see lots of potential, and this is just sword variations. 
>Dueling with assegai anyone?  Sjamboks?  (The only true weapon for a 
>gentlebeing).

Oh ya. I actually have both of those.  Tons of fun!  

The alternate gentleman's weapon is cricket bat.  I picked one up when I was in Joburg.  When asked why I wanted one, I said that I  wanted a British cuktural weapon to go with my assegai.  The ANC member who had spent years in England got it.

We both agreed that the ANC's cultural weapon was the AK-47.

 >Neural whips at 5 paces? 

Ouchie!  Dredging up the reading habits of my youth, the low tech version would be the whip-knife.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 12:08:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue May  7 11:08:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Hotmail adverts (was Re: TML digest, Vol 2002....)
Message-ID: <3CD815CA.E3C0B691@ameritech.net>

> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
> Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 09:01:20 EDT

>>  Well, I decided to jump the broom and try Hotmail. Am I HTML
>> free now?
>> -Ken-
>
>
> Yes, but there is now a small advertisement attached:

<advert snipped>

> Each option has its price.
>
> LKW

True. Though I'll take a one line advert over HTML bloat any day.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 12:09:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Tue May  7 11:09:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
Message-ID: <RELAY1Afdeid4i06b1y00004a35@relay1.softcomca.com>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:

> Yes, interesting.  But still a 'western' weapon.  How about
> something more exotic?  What about alien melee weapons?  Of
> the high-tech influence.  Star wars had it's 'light saber'.
> As I look through Burton's "Book of the sword" I see lots of
> potential, and this is just sword variations.
>
> Dueling with assegai anyone?  Sjamboks?  (The only true weapon
> for a gentlebeing). Neural whips at 5 paces?
>
> A duel in a foreign place could be really interesting.  "Gentleman,
> select your bola, turn and advance 10 paces."

You want *truly* alien weapons?  Change one letter in your last
statement.

"Gentlemen, select your Bolo..."

I hope the duel is taking place on a barren world. :^)

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 12:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Tue May  7 11:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <RELAY1Afdeid4i06b1y00004a35@relay1.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205071136220.21036-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Tue, 7 May 2002, markc@peak.org wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> > A duel in a foreign place could be really interesting.  "Gentleman,
> > select your bola, turn and advance 10 paces."
>
> You want *truly* alien weapons?  Change one letter in your last
> statement.

 "Gentlemen, select your boa..." ??  Live snakes or feathered accessories?

 (Sorry, couldn't help it...)


 Rob D.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 12:43:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Kemp)
Date: Tue May  7 11:43:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: World Entry: Taka (Alpha Quadrant 0827)
Message-ID: <20020507184241.36930.qmail@web11203.mail.yahoo.com>

Daniel Burn wrote:
Very rough indeed! Seems quite polished to me upon a
quick read. It reads quite well and is a good start,
even sufficient as it stands actually for a Library
style entry. Two things bug me:

<<First, and no slight to yourself or plagiarism
implied, but it seems very familiar to me though I
can't place the author offhand. Not too surprising
actually (that I can't nail it down, and  that you'd
have a similar idea) as many of my own game ideas are
drawn, often subconsciously but not always, from my
somewhat  extensive and diverse reading habits. I'm
also a strong believer in identical independent
invention, but suspect all such claims, especially my
own ;-) >>

No worries. I tend to pull things together from various sources myself.
The Takai are inspired by an alien description in GT:Aliens #4, the
Minor Races. The setting was inspired by that of the first Deathworld
novel by Harry H Harrison, which incidently is where my father found my
name (from the main character Jason din Alt.) It morphed into being
during the writing of that sample library data entry, which is why I
want to rewrite it and capture the flavor, now that I've got a model
for it.

<<Second, I'm uncomfortable with the use of Corellian
for obvious reasons but its your universe so ignore that.>>

It wasn't obvious at first (shame on me), so I did a Google search, and
realized that Corellian comes from the SW universe. You're right about
things getting lodged in your mind and coming out subconsciously.

Thanks for the feedback,
Jason


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 13:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Kemp)
Date: Tue May  7 12:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] What makes a good Traveller adventure?
Message-ID: <20020507185918.42541.qmail@web11201.mail.yahoo.com>

Okay, Here's a question for ya:

I've always loved the Traveller background, and making up the minute
details that Traveller allows: starships, systems, world data, etc. As
a solo game, Traveller has my vote for the best ever. (In this, I'm
partial to CT and MT, of course, but I've enjoyed the other systems as
well.) I've played in a few variant games (offshoots of CT, MT and TNE
respectively), and had a blast every time. But whenever it comes time
for me to run a Traveller campaign, I rarely make it past the first
session/adventure.

This saddens me, because I can run a fantasy game with ease and grace.
I can spin campaigns whole-cloth for a few eager players, whether it's
elves and dragons or it's vampires in a World of Darkness. I've been
told I'm a good GM often enough that I actually believe the players...
until it comes time to run a Traveller campaign.

Sadly, I get some sort of GM-Block when I try to run SF, particularly
Traveller. How is it different from running a fantasy game? What makes
for good adventure concepts? What makes for a good overarching campaign
plotline? How does one get over a hurdle like this?

I ask you guys this because you are all diehard fans that have
obviously played and run the game we love for years. Do you have any
suggestions that you'd like to share with a fellow Traveller who would
like to become a good referee?

Thanks In Advance,
Jason Kemp


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 13:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue May  7 12:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <B8FD5A64.5A2CE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020507190957.56788.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> on 5/7/02 9:51 AM, Paul Walker at
> > Weapons would be similar.  While a Vilani may call
>
> Why?  Why not have radically different weapons?  And
> styles of combat
> dictated by those weapons.  A Hunga-Munga is a very
> different weapon than a
> knife, sword, axe or any other weapon.

Well, at least amongst humaniti, I would expect there
to be enough commonality that the classifications we
use would fit.  That is to say, bladed (and other
melee) weapons developed because of their
effectiveness in their purpose.  What would be the
purpose of a Vilani or Zhodani or minor human weapon? 
Likely the same as the Solomani purpose (on the same
type of being).  Hence the similarity in design.  

> > I see the differences in the duel itself.  Why is
> is
> > 10 paces?  I could see worlds where the duel is
> 
> According to the Code Duello, distance was a matter
> of choice, although with
> melee weapons this will be determined by the reach
> of the weapon.  Some
> duels with pistols took place a touching distance.

Ouch.  Not being an expert, I'm basing my guess not so
much on the distance (10 paces), but the arena, that
is, idea of being back to back and taking 10 paces and
turning and firing.  Why wouldn't some alien races
make it more sporting?  Think Running Man with both
sides on an equal footing.

> > As far as alien, I see the Vilani and Aslan as
> being
> 
> Interesting, although being derived from terran
> animal stock it should be
> noted that animals have fairly rigidly defined
> 'rules' for dominance combat.
> It is very rarely lethal.

My thoughts on the Aslan would be that the honor makes
it lethal.  After all, where is the honor in being
defeated?  However my concept of the Aslan is tainted
by outside reading more than any other Traveller
Alien.

Interesting thought.  I could see the Vilani fighting
to the "death" then healing the defeated who then has
to pay reparations to the winner.  Similar to when
Kirk "died" at Spock's hands and McCoy "revived" him.


Paul

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Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 13:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue May  7 12:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Rimwar, Fifth Frontier War, etc.
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKELECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020507111513.021836d8@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:43 PM 5/6/2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> >I would really like to see a major boardgame so that we could recreate not
> >just the major battles, but fight major wars.
>
>I would like to see communication and intelligence addressed according to
>canon, too.

This would be very cool.

>How to make that work in a hex-and-counters game I haven't figured out.

Neither have I.  On the other hand, it would make a great Play-by-Email 
game.  Running such a game would require (at minimum) a referee and players 
to represent the "central command authority" (CCA) of each of the empires 
involved.  It would be ideal to have a group of players to be the various 
"player character admiral" (PCA) positions so that each major fleet could 
have a player in command of it.

The job of the referee would be to keep track of where everyone was, and 
adjudicate combat and various points of the rules, and to track the speed 
of communication and intelligence (effectively "playing" the couriers and 
xboats, moving information around), plus moving NPC fleets according to 
their orders.  The CCA players would be responsible for design and 
construction of the fleets, overall strategy, and issuing orders to both 
NPC and PCA fleets.

While NPC fleets would rather blindly follow their orders (under the 
administration of the referee), fleets controlled by PCAs would be under 
the direct control of real-live people, and (at least in theory) can follow 
or disregard orders as they see fit.  Of course, if following orders 
becomes an issue, the CCA can always relieve a PCA of command ...

This sounds interesting enough that I'd be willing to run it, at least for 
a test scenario.  We'll need at least two players for the CCAs, and ideally 
four or more people to be PCAs.  I'd suggest that we use Book 5 and TCS as 
the rules set.  Interested people should contact me, and we'll talk about 
getting a test scenario (maybe one of the Islands Cluster campaigns from 
TCS) going before we try to simulate any of the "historical" wars.

It would also be nice to get some discussion about reasonable ways to 
simulate non-fleet actions, such as commerce raiding, planetary 
bombardment, siege, and blockade operations.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 13:47:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue May  7 12:47:05 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
In-Reply-To: <3CD8152B.6020300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <F58sPkskqedC8mOLSSP0000e3ae@hotmail.com>
 <3CD8152B.6020300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m3pu07wxl2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:

> 
> He may have a first amendment right to speak, and were this a
> government -run e-mail list it would indeed be unconstitutional to bar
> him.

I'm not talking about the 1st Amendment--as you so rightly state, it's
immaterial.  But the principle behind it is not.

> It is a private list, hosted on a private server, and this is most
> assuredly *not* a democracy.

A kingdom is private property, owned by a man, and is most assuredly
not a democracy.  Is it right for the king to act as he will?

> It is a benevolent (though some might say charismatic ;-)
> dictatorship. Tod has the absolute right to say who is and isn't
> allowed on the list.

To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in
doing it.                                            --G.K. Chesterton

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Voskrese!  Voistinu Voskrese!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 14:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue May  7 13:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <B8FD33BC.59FAD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020507093711.01ee5440@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020507114529.0211e398@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:33 AM 5/7/2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
>It would be like eliminating all extradition laws on earth. Anyone could 
>commit any crime, and so long as they got to a ship, and left system, they 
>would be safe.

Not all; I've posted on this before, so I'll just summarize: the Imperium 
defines several major crimes (murder, slavery, grand theft, fraud, etc.) 
with empire-wide minimum definitions.  Worlds are free to enact more 
restrictive laws, but must enforce the Imperial minimums.  If so requested 
by a representative of the Emperor, worlds must extradite individuals 
suspected of Imperial crimes.

IMTU, the suspect is normally returned to the world where the crime was 
committed for trail.  The Imperium tries "infamous" cases, cases where the 
suspect is Imperial nobility, and cases where the offence did not occur 
within the jurisdiction of a world's government (in deep space, at Imperial 
facilities, etc.).

The net effect is that if you've offended the Holy Day of Plugsarb 
(observed planet wide by the religious dictatorship on Erokle IV) by 
wearing the wrong shade of yellow, you can escape the mandatory death 
sentence if you can make it to the starport before the Holy Wardens get 
you.  And you're safe, as long as you're willing to avoid visiting Erokle 
IV again.  On the other hand, if you kill someone on Regina, going to Efate 
will not save you from eventual extradition and prosecution (presuming that 
Regina does care enough about justice to want you back again).

>Try proving conspiracy in a court.

Exactly.

>That means the Imperium must define what murder is.

Yes; we talked about that before on the TML, and came up with a reasonable 
solution that involved the termination of life processes.  I can't recall 
the exact wording right now.

>in some states, during the 19th century, specifically excepted 'mutual 
>combat' from the murder statutes.

True enough.  Such an exception could be construed to cover both dueling 
and the sorts of limited wars that the Imperium tends to allow.

I haven't decided for my Traveller universe if there is a formal exception 
in the murder law like that, or if it is more a case that the Imperium 
tends not to get involved in each and every murder case.  If the worlds in 
question don't want to bother on their own, and nobody "important" (from an 
Imperial sense) is demanding an investigation, then nothing much happens.

>If you require trying the individual by the local authority, you're going 
>to get wildly variable results.  The locals may not even want to bother.

Yes; this does match the Canon Traveller universe pretty well.

>They may not see that act as a crime, particularly in the case of 
>something like dueling.  Why should local authorities even bother with 
>enforcing Imperial law?

Quite true.  On some worlds, a bunch of off-worlders shooting each other up 
will get a "Yeah, so?  Any of our residents hurt?  Any property 
damage?  No, OK, well investigate it whenever you get the chance."  On 
other worlds, the police will be there before the smoke has cleared.

>Isn't that what they pay their taxes to the Imperium for.

No, actually.

The Imperium is less of a Federal government than a trade 
confederation.  Worlds join the Imperium and pay taxes to join the most 
powerful economy in known space, get the benefit of trade with the other 
worlds of the Imperium, the protection of the Imperial fleet.

The Imperium allows worlds and corporations to go to war with each other 
(so long as you avoid disrupting the flow of commerce and civilian 
casualties), so IMTU they leave most enforcement to the world governments, 
unless there is a reason (economic disruption, non-combatant casualties, 
noble involvement) for the Imperial judicial system to get involved.

>There's a reason that the federal government maintains its own judicial
>systems and doesn't rely on the states to try its prisoners.  In the case of
>the Imperium, the member worlds are even more diverse than the US states.

Yes, and the Imperium does have a judicial system - it just doesn't 
normally get used for crimes that could reasonably fall in the jurisdiction 
of a world's judicial system.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue May  7 13:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <F58sPkskqedC8mOLSSP0000e3ae@hotmail.com>	<3CD8152B.6020300@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <m3pu07wxl2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3CD83812.1000808@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Robert Uhl  wrote:

>>It is a private list, hosted on a private server, and this is most
>>assuredly *not* a democracy.
> 
> 
> A kingdom is private property, owned by a man, and is most assuredly
> not a democracy.  Is it right for the king to act as he will?

As a king, most assuredly. In an absolute kindom, there is no 
superceding law. That's why absolute tyrants can do what they do. If you 
are asking is it 'morally' right, that is another kettle of fish, but in 
an absolute kingdom it is the Kings right to act as he sees fit.

You're creating a strawman argument here...banning someone from a 
mailing list for rude and disruptive behavior is perfectly legal under 
the superceding law, that is the various city, state and federal codes 
we all operate under here in the US.

Tod does have to operate under legal strictures here, but where they are 
not explicitly banning his actions, he perfectly free to be as 
benevolent or tyrannical as he wishes.

You are free to vote with your feet, and arrange your own mailing list, 
or create one on the number of free list servers around the Net if you 
dislike how this list operates.

I find it rather odd that someone who was earlier defending the 'choice' 
social humiliation vs possible death is so put out over membership on a 
private mailing list being contingent on being more or less polite.

It is Sean's choice to post the way he has, and in doing so he has 
risked being punted off the list for cause.

We witness fierce and vociferous debates on this list both on topic and 
off, and of all the hundreds of members, very few of us have ever 
behaved in the fashion that Mr. Sears has, and certainly not so 
unrepentantly as he has.

>>It is a benevolent (though some might say charismatic ;-)
>>dictatorship. Tod has the absolute right to say who is and isn't
>>allowed on the list.
> 
> 
> To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in
> doing it.                                            --G.K. Chesterton

All well and true...however, it is merely your contention that banning a 
disruptive, loudmouthed list member is wrong. This is Tod's electronic 
parlor and Mr. Sears has taken on the part of loudmouthed drunk at a 
party. The right to do a thing and being right in it is pretty obvious 
to me.

That said, the number of people officially banned from the TML over the 
years is quite small: three (iirc), and each was given multiple chances.

Still, it is Tod's decision, not ours.

That said, I've set this reply-to the chat list ans that's where this 
meta-discussion stuff belongs...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 14:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue May  7 13:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <m31ycn9ajr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020507093711.01ee5440@mail.qrc.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020507093711.01ee5440@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020507162210.022c6f38@mail.qrc.com>

At 12:39 PM 5/7/2002, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> writes:
> > I'd also suggest that certain acts (such as murder)
> > are Imperial crimes, and illegal everywhere.
>
>I see no reason for the Imperium to _care_ when one of its quintillions of 
>sophonts is murdered.  It'll care about treason (an act against the 
>Imperium itself), but not about murder.

On reflection, good point.

I'd still suggest that the Imperium cares about some kinds of murder (such 
as of Imperial officials, Imperial Nobility, and possibly officers of the 
Imperial services).  But you're right - the Imperial laws probably cover 
treason, and various kinds of law as is needed to foster interstellar 
commerce (money, taxes, contracts, ownership, etc.).

>Heck, trade war is nothing but murder and destruction, but that's allowed

True, but the only murder allowed is of other combatants.  Even in a trade 
war, killing non-employees is a definite no-no, and killing non-combatant 
employees is frowned on.  Like I said in my earlier post, I haven't made my 
mind up of this is actually in the law, or just the current Imperial 
attitude towards law enforcement.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 14:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue May  7 13:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <B8FD5355.5A2BD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3CD8017A.C6B95F1E@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020507163318.00b85ec0@urbin.net>

At 09:48 AM 5/7/02 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 5/7/02 9:31 AM, Roseberry at rosebee@mail.cswnet.com wrote:
> > I'm arriving late to this thread, but I do have a question.
> > Why is it that Nobles generally have foils?
> > Why not Battle Axes? Is it just something traditional?
>I just started a new thread (Melee weapons of the Imperium) that speaks to
>this question (if obliquely).  Why foils, or any 'traditional'  western
>European weapons.  Why not a Hunga-Munga or Sjambok or something even more
>strange?
>"You can tell he's a noble.  Only a man of noble birth may carry the
>Nunchaku."
>I'm amused by the idea of the whip or sjambok as a badge of noble office.
>It seems more appropriate. I'm curious to see what kind of weapons we could
>create for "Melee Weapons of the Imperium".

I'm reminded of one of the scariest books I ever read, "Under the Yoke" by 
S.M. Stirling.

The Draka carried Samboks.  They used them on their "Tools that think."

That's a nasty world setting to crashland players on....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 14:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue May  7 13:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What makes a good Traveller adventure?
In-Reply-To: <20020507185918.42541.qmail@web11201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020507203523.50983.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>

> I can spin campaigns whole-cloth for a few eager
> players, whether it's
> elves and dragons or it's vampires in a World of
> Darkness.
> 
> Sadly, I get some sort of GM-Block when I try to run
> SF, particularly
> Traveller. How is it different from running a
> fantasy game? 
I've had this problem in reverse. I think the problem
lies in the things you can do in a fantasy world vs.
the things you can do in a scifi world. 
There are so many things ,in fact there's not much you
can't do in a scifi game. The options are
overwhelming. Maybe you should trim off a lot of fat
that's contained in the Traveller Universe first just
create a world at first and don't think of "what's out
there". Treat your scifi campaign just like you would
a fantasy campaign, just change the names. Simple
words and descriptions can change everything. A lot of
fantasy games are narrow in scope. A scifi game is
just a fantasy game where you have a different fantasy
world for each planet in the Imperium. I rely heavily
on library data from various Traveller related sites
to help flesh out each world. Really, who has the time
to flesh out each and every of the thousands of worlds
of the Imperium and the surrounding territories?
I hope this helps some.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 14:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue May  7 13:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What makes a good Traveller adventure?
References: <20020507185918.42541.qmail@web11201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CD83D7B.8050305@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jason Kemp wrote:

> Sadly, I get some sort of GM-Block when I try to run SF, particularly
> Traveller. How is it different from running a fantasy game? What makes
> for good adventure concepts? What makes for a good overarching campaign
> plotline? How does one get over a hurdle like this?
> 
> I ask you guys this because you are all diehard fans that have
> obviously played and run the game we love for years. Do you have any
> suggestions that you'd like to share with a fellow Traveller who would
> like to become a good referee?

Well, a good excersize is to examine just how it is you can so easily 
spin out a fantasy adventure...what sources are you drawing upon, what 
structure do you impose, etc.

Second, think up that wonderful fantasy adventure, grind off the serial 
numbers, change the names to protect the guilty and repurpose it as a SF 
adventure. Once you have the structure of the thing, hanging different 
clothes on it's frame is relatively easy.

Instead of vampires, substitute scheming nobles with a stash of illegal 
brainwashing drugs, and a dastardly plot to extract rare pharmaceutical 
components from human blood.

Dragons? Well make it a powerful psionic Droyne sitting on his stash of 
Ancient artifacts.

Thirdly...forget everything you ever knew about the Seventh Commandment: 
Steal, steal and shamelessly steal.

Swipe movie plots, TV plots, book plots, fellow Traveller's plots, 
adventures from other games, etc, etc.

Grind off the serial numbers and re-purpose them for your game:

"The players are contacted by Sir Boi Amirich.

Sir Amirich recently bid on a rather obscure painting by a somewhat 
second-rate, recently deceased artist as a speculative art acquisiton.

However, when he came to pick up the painting, the auction house told 
him that his representative had already picked up the painting, and they 
show him a receipt for the full amount in cash.

Sir Imrich asked for and got the surveillance video from the auction 
house (who are embarrased at the mixup) and has clear video of the 
person posing as his representative.

He has hired the PC's to recover the painting.

Unbeknownst to the PC's the painting is actually a painted-over, stolen 
masterpiece, cooling off until it can be sold again. The artist, but not 
his associates knew the true provenance of his painting.

The person who orchestrated the original theft and coverup is attempting 
to recover the painting, and will stop at nothing to do so."

The plot is ripe for red herrings, chases through starports, just 
missing that ship, murder, mayhem, and all the juicy stuff that makes up 
a good adventure.

I was able to rattle this off in a heartbeat because

a) it is, slightly expanded, one of my entries in '101 Patrons', an 
exceptionally fine and valuable BITS publication:

http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/BITS_website/Productsfolder/prod_101pa.html

and b) it was originally a 'Murder She Wrote' episode ;-)

Old teevee is a goldmine of adventure ideas, and sufficient different 
genres exists so that you could probably find just about any type of 
adventure you wanted...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 14:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue May  7 13:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <F58sPkskqedC8mOLSSP0000e3ae@hotmail.com>	<3CD8152B.6020300@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <m3pu07wxl2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <3CD83812.1000808@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CD83EF6.8090003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> That said, I've set this reply-to the chat list ans that's where this 
> meta-discussion stuff belongs...
> 

Actually I DID try to set the Reply-to on that message but it was 
ignored by the list server...:-/


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 15:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue May  7 14:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hasty words
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCELHCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <009701c1f611$605a92b0$559693c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Did everyone love Ben Bova's The Duelling Machine as much as I did?
>

I read that book about 20 years ago at school, and still remember bits of
it. It must have been good...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 15:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue May  7 14:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
In-Reply-To: <3CD83EF6.8090003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <F58sPkskqedC8mOLSSP0000e3ae@hotmail.com>
 <3CD8152B.6020300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <m3pu07wxl2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <3CD83812.1000808@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <3CD83EF6.8090003@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m3bsbrwrjg.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> Actually I DID try to set the Reply-to on that message but it was
> ignored by the list server...:-/

Hence <http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html>.  Is there an
option in Mailman to not munge Reply-To?  I believe so.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Voskrese iz mertvych
Smertiju smert' poprav
I suscim vo hrobich zi
Vot darovav!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue May  7 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Wargame Rules: slightly OT, plus a link...
Message-ID: <F210mgEVg3UcXHFMJvQ0000d4a7@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "Thank you for posting the URL to this fascinating site. I'll be 
wastin.... spending considerable time there soon."


Mr. Goffin,

     You're very welcome, sir.  I've spent quite a bit of time there of 
late, following link after link after link after link...
     That stately Whipsnade family manse, Casa Diablo, has seen it's ancient 
ping-pong table turned into a full time wargaming table.  Bits of cloth, 
scraps of construction paper, and empty ale bottles have been pressed into 
use as terrain while small rectangles of cardboard sit in for miniature 
figure bases.  I'm currently goofing around with a set of rules for H.G. 
Well's "War of the Worlds".  It's called "Fist Full Of Tripods".  Come on 
Thunderchild!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 16:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Tue May  7 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205071136220.21036-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD856A0.CF47654B@premier.net>


Rob Davenport wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 7 May 2002, markc@peak.org wrote:
> 
> > Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> >
> > > A duel in a foreign place could be really interesting.  "Gentleman,
> > > select your bola, turn and advance 10 paces."
> >
> > You want *truly* alien weapons?  Change one letter in your last
> > statement.
> 
>  "Gentlemen, select your boa..." ??  Live snakes or feathered accessories?

"Don't dream it...be it." ;-)

Or, for a much more lethal duel:

"Gentlemen, select your Ebola...."

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 16:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue May  7 15:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
Message-ID: <3CD859D0.ED2ECA38@mail.cswnet.com>

>>>"Gentleman, select your bola, turn and advance 10 paces."
>>
>> You want *truly* alien weapons?  Change one letter in your last
>> statement.
>
>"Gentlemen, select your boa..." ??  Live snakes or feathered >accessories?

"Gentlemen, select your retractable cod-piece..."

More seriously...

Alaskan Ubu knives at close range.

I'm envisioning an Imperial Noble with a BIG BATTLE AXE,
ala something out of one of Frank Frazetta's paintings.

Like this guy:
http://www.raptor9.hpg.ig.com.br/jjbinks/frazetta/pages/frazetta122.htm

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 16:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May  7 15:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Thanks
Message-ID: <20020507.155350.-116939.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Thanks everybody,

The Sticky Keys work fine, they help a lot!

Thanks for the Die roll program, works great.

Turokan

..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 16:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue May  7 15:57:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The days pass...
Message-ID: <200205072256.FVB06025@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

For those of us raised on a diet of TV SF shows such as Star 
Trek, and of course, the LBBs, apparently the actor who 
played Scotty is in a coma, and is not expected to survive.

A source for a lot of the engineers in our TUs.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 16:58:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue May  7 15:58:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
References: <3CD859D0.ED2ECA38@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3CD85B64.7070303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Roseberry wrote:

> I'm envisioning an Imperial Noble with a BIG BATTLE AXE,
> ala something out of one of Frank Frazetta's paintings.
> 
> Like this guy:
> http://www.raptor9.hpg.ig.com.br/jjbinks/frazetta/pages/frazetta122.htm

If that's a Noble of the Imperium...I'm running off to join the side 
that has the short guys with hairy feet..;-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Tue May  7 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The days pass...
In-Reply-To: <200205072256.FVB06025@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1f61d$3a278ec0$0f01a8c0@terry>

Can you provide a link to the story or where you picked it up?

Thanks,

Terry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of John T. Kwon
> Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 5:57 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] The days pass...
> 
> For those of us raised on a diet of TV SF shows such as Star
> Trek, and of course, the LBBs, apparently the actor who
> played Scotty is in a coma, and is not expected to survive.
> 
> A source for a lot of the engineers in our TUs.
> ________________
> ICQ 34855601
> MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
> AIM VASmalltalk
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 17:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dale Gyles)
Date: Tue May  7 16:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: What makes a good Traveller adventure?
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20020507163939.00a05850@mail.attbi.com>

1. Try to avoid players who think hydrogen is a rare element. :)
2. Beware of players who have all the stats for every weapon ever imagined 
memorized or readily available.  They are planninng to use this expertise.  :)
3.  Never allow the players to find, posess, or manufacture nuclear 
weapons.  :)
4.  Do not let the players have members of the nobility as 
passengers/patrons on their ship.  :)
5.  Discourage the use of grenades.  :)
6.  Remind them of the existence of low tech items, flashlights, bug 
repellent, duct tape, etc.  :)
7.  Never, never bring a newby spouse into an existing campaign via a low 
berth plot device.  Explanation, players are trapped in a med facility 
inside a ROM naval base by security bots.  Players find functioning low 
berth with character of newby spouse.  They revive character and explain 
situation.  Character is member of base staff with command authority, so 
the players send her out to talk to the bots.  Bots rush up, report 
intruders, and ask for orders.  She thinks for a bit, then says, "Carry 
on.".  Her husband screams, "You could have at least told them to take us 
prisoner!!" and runs out of room.  Marriage survived, game did not. :)

I hope that none of this is applicable to your playing group.  If you have 
a good group, try using the advice from the CT product, the Traveller 
Book.  An adventure should have a gimmick, an enigma, a push, a pull, and 
the basics.  If you are a successful fantasy ref, I am not sure why you 
have a problem reffing Traveller, unless it is the same problem I had when 
switching from D&D, which is the sheer size and scope of the mileau.  I 
tried to detail everything and quickly got discouraged.  Now I just rely 
upon modules and my general knowledge of the background.  I just make up a 
generic outline of campaign events and what I want to happen, and wing it 
from there.  I do define NPC's and their goals, but I let the players do 
most of the work.  You know, just sit there and look inscrutable while the 
players analyze the recent events and the motivations behind them, then 
pick the plot event that sounds good to you from their ramblings.

Good Luck!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dale Gyles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 17:26:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue May  7 16:26:06 2002
Subject: [TML] The days pass...
References: <200205072256.FVB06025@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD86273.70009@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> For those of us raised on a diet of TV SF shows such as Star 
> Trek, and of course, the LBBs, apparently the actor who 
> played Scotty is in a coma, and is not expected to survive.

Rumors of his demise are rather greatly exaggerated, thankfully...

http://www.syfyportal.com/article/?id=703




-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 17:29:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Tue May  7 16:29:07 2002
Subject: [TML] The days pass...
In-Reply-To: <200205072256.FVB06025@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEGLDNAA.tml@downport.com>

Aye, James Doohan... who has no accent :) About the only TV autograph I
have, too.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon
>
> For those of us raised on a diet of TV SF shows such as Star
> Trek, and of course, the LBBs, apparently the actor who
> played Scotty is in a coma, and is not expected to survive.
>
> A source for a lot of the engineers in our TUs.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 17:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue May  7 16:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Hasty Words
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22784@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3CD90C6A.20468.6D79DC@localhost>

On 7 May 2002 at 9:07, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> Actually, the Vargr and Aslan might be less violent than humans, given that
> they have natural weapons. I read a quote once on this topic, but can't
> remember the source. It basically said unarmed humans can flail away at each
> other without doing much damage, while aliens with natural weapons
> can't.(Aslan have their highly ritualized code of etiquette for this very
> reason, IIRC). Unfortunately, when humans move on to spears, swords, bows,
> and guns, they still act out with the same level of aggressiveness, but with
> much deadlier consequences.
> 	It's just a theory, of course.

One dreamt up by someone who hasn't seen the results of a good beating, 
at my guess. A few years back I witnessed a flat-mate get a beating 
because he was went round bad-mouthing his boss in all the local pubs. 
The guy who hit him was a solid chap, but not huge and hit him three 
times, once in the left cheek, once in the right cheek and then a 
'finisher' also to the left cheek. My flat-mate had both orbits 
cracked, his cheekbones displaced and the left side of his nose 
fractured and the fluid leaking from his nose wasn't blood, either. He 
was concious, not drunk and not caught be surprise when this happened, 
though I think he didn't expect quite the assault he got.

The idea that humans need weapons to hurt and kill each other is a load 
of bollocks.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 17:32:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue May  7 16:32:20 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <02df01c1f5c8$4005a2a0$3dd493c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CD90C6A.19129.6D7914@localhost>

On 7 May 2002 at 14:07, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> >
> 
> >
> > Well the whipping of the point certainly is dumb, but the valid target
> > areas make some sense if you're training people for duels to the death,
> > which I was told by my instructor way-back-when was what the foil was
> > originally for.
> 
> Yes, a sword that light in the arm or leg would propabbly not "stop" an
> opponent....

Who then runs you through the middle while your sword is bound up in 
their leg. not good.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 17:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue May  7 16:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <B8FD33BC.59FAD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B8FD33BC.59FAD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3cd7f0eb.19510920@post.demon.co.uk>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:

>Think about the impact this would have.  It would be like eliminating =
all
>extradition laws on earth. Anyone could commit any crime, and so long as
>they got to a ship, and left system, they would be safe.

Sounds like the reason why Virgil Samms set up the Galactic Patrol!

Seriously, my thought is that in its pure, original form the Imperial
constitution did specify that each world would have its own code of
laws, and could not enforce them on other worlds. =20

After all, if you're the ruler of the planet Here and your hobby is
grottle-shooting, you may be willing to accept that the Emperor allows
your neighbouring world There to make grottle-shooting illegal.  Fair
enough, you won't shoot any grottles while you're visiting that
planet.  But what if they arrest you as soon as you set foot on There
bacause of what you do back home?  Unacceptable!

Of course, Cleon's contitution would reserve the rights of the
Imperium to intervene and overrule any planet's laws in case of
necessity.  If a wanted criminal fled to another planet, the proper
course of action would be to ask your subsector Duke to have a quiet
word with the rulers of that world and persuade them to hand over the
criminal.  If they refuse, well, the 3I's constitution does allow
interplanetary war for a reason...=20

As the Imperium grew and matured, this original system seemed far too
simplistic.  Extraditing minor criminals to face charges of theft or
fraud was far too petty to bother the Duke over, and few worlds would
see such an issue as a matter to contest in the name of planetary
sovereignity.  Therefore, over the last 1,000 years an extensive
system of Imperial Customary Law has developed.  This defines acts
which are considered to be illegal everywhere in the Imperium, lays
down standard punishments and sets out procedures for investigation,
extradition and jurisdiction.  These aren't "Imperial Crimes" in the
sense that they are investigated and punished by central Imperial
agencies, but almost all Imperial worlds treat them the same way.

Of course, there are constitutional purists who decry all this as a
betrayal of the Imperium's Founding Father; they say that all these
accretions to the constitution since Year 0 are illegal, and insist on
a strict interpretation of Worlds' Rights. There are also occasional
rogue planetary governments, usually those with strong and
idiosyncratic ideologies, who refuse to cooperate.  The Imperium will
tolerate this, but keep a close watch on the worlds (if they annoy
their neighbours or the Megacorps too much, the result may be a war).
More common is a world that follows ICL for the most part, but has
introduced a few specific variations to meet its rulers' prejudices.

Imperial nobles can still intervene and override the local law, but
it's a lot harder now with eleven centuries of precedent weighing them
down.

As a final twist, maybe there are regional variations of the Imperial
Customary Law - so that in the coreward parts of the Imperium is more
influenced by Vilani traditions, the Rim follows Terran
English/American common law, the Marches Terran Roman law, and so on.



Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 17:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue May  7 16:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <m3wuuf7vqk.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <B8FD33BC.59FAD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD91142.12068.80648E@localhost>

On 7 May 2002 at 10:45, Robert Uhl wrote:

> I happen to think, though, that in many cases the scenario you painted
> is exactly the way things are in the Traveller universe--much like
> things used to be in America (when one could just change states and
> start over).  It simply costs too much to go after someone for minor
> affairs.  Just let the drop that is him be lost in the sea of the
> Imperial populace, 'cause finding him will be as easy as finding a
> drop in the coean.

IMTU you just put his name on the list of people you'd like back along 
with a list of his crimes, and send it off on the next X-boat. If the 
perp has done something really bad (mass-murder, etc.) the worlds down 
the line might exert themselves and look for him, but otherwise nothing 
happens until he's picked up for something (on a high law-level world 
this could well be simply as part of a routine paper-check, of course) 
and his name comes up. At that point if the world that found him thinks 
his crimes warrant him being sent back he'll be on the next ship going 
that way. Some worlds will extradite anyone they get on 'the list', 
others only those that have done something they find offensive.

BTW, when you put someone on 'the list' you'd better really want them, 
because one of the rules for extradition IMTU is that the receiving 
world pays the travel costs of the suspect and his guards. Many worlds 
put a 'maximum distance' limit on the want list for this reason, and if 
you're only wanted for a misdemeanor they won't bother. Obviously the 
worse the crime the further you have to run.

Because of the nature of the list pre-industrial worlds are often good 
places to hide, because their ability to run checks on you is more 
limited (though a good many crims have been caught because they didn't 
allow for that expensive off-world computer the king has in his 
basement for tracking bad people and doing budget forecasts).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 17:54:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue May  7 16:54:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <B8FD3C82.59FB7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200205071454.FVA25090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD91142.26064.806303@localhost>

On 7 May 2002 at 8:10, Tod Glenn wrote:

> > That, and all those unarmored people standing around with
> > their foils, smallswords, and such.  The battle axe,
> > especially if it has a reinforced butt on the handle, might
> > be an interesting crowd control weapon.  Would you want to be
> > a rioter if the Marines suddenly got the order "Axes Only!
> > Draw and Advance!"
> 
> Yes, interesting.  But still a 'western' weapon.  How about something more
> exotic?  What about alien melee weapons?  Of the high-tech influence.  Star
> wars had it's 'light saber'.  As I look through Burton's "Book of the sword"
> I see lots of potential, and this is just sword variations.

Not only western, IIRC the Japanese had a battle axe, too.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 17:55:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue May  7 16:55:36 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <200205071454.FVA25090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD91142.4544.8063C1@localhost>

On 7 May 2002 at 10:54, John T. Kwon wrote:

> That, and all those unarmored people standing around with 
> their foils, smallswords, and such.  The battle axe, 
> especially if it has a reinforced butt on the handle, might 
> be an interesting crowd control weapon.  Would you want to be 
> a rioter if the Marines suddenly got the order "Axes Only! 
> Draw and Advance!"

My father has always advocated a sharpened spade for use in riots.Not 
too long, can be used to club with (both ends), stab with, slash with 
and as a short staff to push with. I think he intended to hold it just 
below the grip and at the top of the metal socket (about a foot above 
the blade) and use it like a short quarterstaff.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 17:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May  7 16:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <3cd7f0eb.19510920@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B8FDB7B3.5A337%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/7/02 4:50 PM, Stephen Tempest at tml@stempest.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Sounds like the reason why Virgil Samms set up the Galactic Patrol!

[snip]

> As a final twist, maybe there are regional variations of the Imperial
> Customary Law - so that in the coreward parts of the Imperium is more
> influenced by Vilani traditions, the Rim follows Terran
> English/American common law, the Marches Terran Roman law, and so on.
> 


Thanks.  this and a few other posts have refined how I'm going to handle it
in MTU.  I now know exactly what a noble who receives appointment as
Imperial Magistrate does.  (see noble benefits at
http://www.travellercentral.com House Rules).
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 18:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May  7 17:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law
Message-ID: <B8FDBC21.5A340%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

A couple of questions for the list.

We've discussed criminals who flee to another planet to avoid prosecution.
What about those who flee across the extrality line onto the starport
(technically Imperial territory with LL0)?

Also, who attends to crimes committed on the starport itself, IYTU?  What is
the Imperial legal system?  How are criminals dealt with.  Where are they
incarcerated, etc.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 18:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue May  7 17:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law
References: <B8FDBC21.5A340%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD86F5A.5040006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> A couple of questions for the list.
> 
> We've discussed criminals who flee to another planet to avoid prosecution.
> What about those who flee across the extrality line onto the starport
> (technically Imperial territory with LL0)?
> 
> Also, who attends to crimes committed on the starport itself, IYTU?  What is
> the Imperial legal system?  How are criminals dealt with.  Where are they
> incarcerated, etc.

Both of those questions are answered in GT:Starports, which, since it is 
the only detailed canon source on starports, should do.

Basically The first question is 'It Depends', mostly on the relationship 
between the Starport Authority and the local law.

Second, Starport Authority deals with the latter question. These are 
crimes commited on Imperial Property. I suspect most of the code is 
derived from the Imperial UCMJ, with some changes for civilian use.




-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 18:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May  7 17:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
Message-ID: <20020507.174355.-116939.3.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Wed, 8 May 2002 11:51:30 +1200 "Rupert Boleyn"
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
> On 7 May 2002 at 8:10, Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> > > That, and all those unarmored people standing around with
> > > their foils, smallswords, and such.  The battle axe,
> > > especially if it has a reinforced butt on the handle, might
> > > be an interesting crowd control weapon.  Would you want to be
> > > a rioter if the Marines suddenly got the order "Axes Only!
> > > Draw and Advance!"
> > 

How 'bout . . .

On two - "Draw Machete!"

"ONE, TWO, ARRGH! SIR!!!"

"Prepare to charge and slash."

"Sir, Yes Sir, ARRGH!"

:~)
..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 18:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Tue May  7 17:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : The days pass...
Message-ID: <20020508005339.72624.qmail@web10607.mail.yahoo.com>

"...apparently the actor who played Scotty is in a
coma, and is not expected to survive."

Where does this keep coming from, according to his
agent and family he's doing as well as can be expected
for an octogenarian WWII vet recovering from
pneumonia, which admittedly is not good but hardly
checking out. One report I saw was attributed to an
un-named close family friend (there's a solid source)
but not confirmed by (did anyone ask?) his doctor or
family.



______________________________________________________________________ 
Games, Movies, Music & Sports! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 19:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue May  7 18:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Anti-Imperial sentiments in the Imperium
References: <20020507165834.53EE5279EF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008501c1f62c$b262d520$e25d8690@computer>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
> On the other hand, a construction worker out in the Marches advocating
> independence for Regina and Jewell subsectors and establishment therein of
> an anarcho-syndicalist commune with freedom of choice as to psionics might
> just be dismissed as another crackpot, if he's noticed at all, at least
> until he and his group start trying to overthrow the government of Efate
> and bombing L-hyd tank facilities.

That's a _pan-sophontist_ anarcho-syndicalist commune with freedom of choice
as to psionics, of course.

That bombing was a police provocation!

On behalf of the Regina Regional Committee of the Ine Givar (Solidariti),
Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 19:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue May  7 18:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The days pass...
Message-ID: <200205080110.FVB21666@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Terry asks
>Can you provide a link to the story or where you picked it 
>up?

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2002-
05/06/10.30.tv

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 19:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jerry Hill)
Date: Tue May  7 18:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Customs Inspections
Message-ID: <000041bd02457c07d2@[192.168.0.66]>

</LURK>

I've started running my first traveller game (using GT), and am a bit
confused about how to run customs inspections.  I've read through the GT:
Far Trader and GT: Starports sections about customs, but I'm still left wit=
h
some questions.  

The PCs are running about in retired scout survey ship with a small cargo
hold, and are generally running freight to cover docking and refueling cost=
s
as they adventure.  Here's a couple of situations that have come up (or wil=
l
come up shortly), and I was wondering how they should be run.  

The PCs, with a load of legitimate freight, approach New Rome.  Once they
dock at the high port, customs comes aboard, looks at the cargo and
determines it's all legit.  The PCs, being PCs, are also carrying a
veritable armory of weapons and ammunition, most of which are illegal on Ne=
w
Rome, but, I assume, are legal in the extra-territorial space of the
Imperium.  Should the weapons have been placed under a customs seal while
they were docked at the high port?  Should they even have been inspected at=

the imperial high port, or should the cargo have only been inspected as the=
y
were offloaded and turned over to the local buyer?

Next week, the PCs will be jumping to Egypt with a load of radioactives,
some industrial parts, and a small crate of contraband.  Assuming the party=

again docks at the high port, and is inspected by customs, what will the
customs agents do when they find a box of drugs illegal on Egypt?  Does it
matter if the PCs claim that it's being trans-shipped, or is speculative
trade cargo?

--
Jerry Hill

<LURK>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 19:24:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue May  7 18:24:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Further Klez mutants
Message-ID: <3CD84C32.4060606@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Someone is aiding this thing along...

The following just popped into our webmaster inbox:

_______________________________________________________________

Klez.E is the most common world-wide spreading worm.It's very dangerous 
by corrupting your files.
Because of its very smart stealth and anti-anti-virus technic,most 
common AV software can't detect or clean it.
We developed this free immunity tool to defeat the malicious virus.
You only need to run this tool once,and then Klez will never come into 
your PC.
NOTE: Because this tool acts as a fake Klez to fool the real worm,some 
AV monitor maybe cry when you run it.
If so,Ignore the warning,and select 'continue'.
If you have any question,please mail to me.
____________________________________________________________________

The message contains, of course, the klez.g variant of the virus.

Word to the wise.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 19:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue May  7 18:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <20020507232305.39A6A279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205080332070.14645-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Derek Wildstar writes:
>>That means the Imperium must define what murder is.
>
>Yes; we talked about that before on the TML, and came up with a reasonable
>solution that involved the termination of life processes.  I can't recall
>the exact wording right now.

My suggestion was "The unsanctioned termination of a sapient being". The
'unsanctioned' bit gave the Imperium it's wiggle room, since the Imperium
reserves the right to decide who is and isn't qualified to sanction
terminations (basically any government recognized by the Imperium).

>>in some states, during the 19th century, specifically excepted 'mutual
>>combat' from the murder statutes.
>
>True enough.  Such an exception could be construed to cover both dueling
>and the sorts of limited wars that the Imperium tends to allow.

And such mutual combat would count as sanctioned. so would small wars...



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 20:28:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Tue May  7 19:28:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Melee Weapons
Message-ID: <F167opyFvfkWL9S28cd0000f007@hotmail.com>

   The alien melee weapon thread has got me to wondering about 
non-terrestrial melee (and missile) weapons in general, and frankly, I'm 
having a *heck* of a time trying to think of something decidedly alien :)
   About the only thing *I* can think of that's even a *bit* out of the 
ordinary are monofilament-bladed,vibro-bladed,or even nifty Energy-bladed 
weapons :)
   While I think the term vibroblade *sounds* pretty cool, I haven't got the 
slightest idea how something like this might actually work, gamewise. A plus 
on pen, damage, or both?
   The same goes for the even *cooler* sounding monofilament; though I've 
read Gibson's old Cyberpunk stuff, so have an *inkling* of a monofilament's 
destructive power; though again, *no* idea what sort of penetration and 
damage. From assorted stories, maybe it'll pen *anything*?
   Well, here's my version of a popular Space Saga's Energyblade:

   Energyblade
   Pen 23, block 7, damage 3
   Any weapon parried by the Energyblade which isn't an Energyblade itself, 
is cut to pieces.

  -Ken-

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 20:34:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Tue May  7 19:34:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1020825205.0.34002500@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Tod Glenn posted:
>
> Dueling with assegai anyone?  Sjamboks?  (The only true weapon for a
> gentlebeing). Neural whips at 5 paces?
>
> A duel in a foreign place could be really interesting.  "Gentleman, select
> your bola, turn and advance 10 paces."
>
> What are you thoughts?

In case someone hasn't already posted it (I get the digest of the list), how about a kukri? Anybody wanna duel a pissed-off Gurkha?

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 20:35:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue May  7 19:35:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law
Message-ID: <F75WV3qdNjMIu35pETu0000d6fa@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "We've discussed criminals who flee to another planet to avoid 
prosecution.  What about those who flee across the extrality line onto the 
starport (technically Imperial territory with LL0)?"


Mr. Glenn,

     While GT:Starports probably answers both of your questions and the 
List's legal boffins will provide us with nice commentary, here's how it's 
handled in a WTU*.
     Simply put, it depends.  Starports are Imperial territory but they are 
also NOT law level 0.  This is due to "law level" in CT being little more 
than and "allowable weapons" and "cop harassment" guesstimate.  PCs can do 
more within the extrality line because the starport security folks don't 
sweat the small stuff, i.e. enforcing cultural dress codes isn't done, 
chatting up someone toting a bazooka and making suggestions with regards to 
that device's safe storage will be done.  Generally, my starport crushers 
concentrate on bodily harm and property theft/damage.  The range of 
"victimless" crimes are usually left alone.  Usually...
     Starports will usually have a "different" law level then the system or 
polity where they are located, sometimes lower, sometimes higher.  In a 
double-zero "anarchic" world, the starport may be the only bastion of lawful 
behavior.  On a totalitarian world, the starport will be the only outpost of 
"freedom".
     Extradition is handled on a case by case basis.  The biggest factor in 
handling extradition is the current political climate between the Imperium 
and the locals.  Where everything is chummy, you'll be handed over, without 
need of a warrant, for littering.  Where the Imperium and locals aren't 
getting along, the local cops can stuff their requests, even if you've 
murdered someone.  Of course, the Imperial starport supervisor makes the 
judegment and your particular case may become a pawn in her continuous game 
with the locals.  You could be handed over if she wants to curry favor or 
protected if she wants to "send a message".
     Will nipping across the extrality line always save you from the local 
beadles?  Don't bet on it...

     "Also, who attends to crimes committed on the starport itself, IYTU?  
What is the Imperial legal system?  How are criminals dealt with.  Where are 
they incarcerated, etc."

     Once again, it depends.  What's the size of the port?  Or it's 
classification?  Or the relationship with the locals?  Huge class A ports 
will have their own cops, courts, and prisons.  What passes for a judicial 
system may simply be a carbon copy of the one on the other side of the 
extrality line.
     Smaller ports may subcontract out portions of their security work, foot 
patrol by Wackenhut types with the nastier stuff handled by actual starport 
employees.  Some smaller ports may "rent" space in the local lockups for 
their prisoners.  Other ports may be patrolled by Army, Marine, or IISS 
detachments for various reasons.
     Dealing with the legal system could be mean full blown jury trials 
complete with judges and advocates, hearings before magistrates, or waiting 
in prison for the "circuit riding" justice of the peace to arrive.
     Let me use Grote for an example.  This is straight out of my Langrab 
and might not fit everyone's TUs.  The port is class A, or V.  Population is 
~40k "legally" and ~100k altogether (counting transients, contract workers, 
and the others who don't belong to a local clan).  Government is 0 and law 
level is 4.
     The Imperium likes to keep an eye on Grote.  It's the only class A port 
for many parsecs around, it sits on the border, the Sword Worlds have shown 
an interest in it, there's no real government, and lots of people like L.E. 
Whipsnade hang out there.  Consequently, there is a Port Warden in charge at 
the port.  She gets a baronial patent with the job, plus a small Marine 
security detachment and a few IISS/MOJ types.  Most of the foot patrol and 
doorknob rattling type of policing gets done in the starport by a 
subcontractor.  The extrality line mostly works to protect the port, and 
it's shipping and cargo, from the locals and not the other way around.
     The port maintains a small brig but also pays a large clan, the 
Addakkumak, to store most of the port's prisoners.  Some crimes in the port 
are simply handled by throwing the miscreant across the extrality line and 
out of the port.
     The current baron and the current Addakkumak archon are on good terms.  
Most folks who are wanted by one side or the other are handed over gladly, 
usually all either side has to do is ask.  There is one sticky point 
however, Addakkumak family politics is a blood sport and one of the losers 
in the last archonal campaign didn't go quietly into that good night or even 
move off planet.  Instead, he decided to live in the port.  The Addakkumak 
haven't exactly asked for him and the Baroness hasn't exactly said she 
wouldn't turn him over if the request came.  Besides, he hasn't done 
anything that has angered the Baroness yet and he isn't worth enough for the 
Addakkumak to press the issue.
     Of course, this very delicate, three-way balance could come crashing 
down in all sorts of nasty ways.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 20:38:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Tue May  7 19:38:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Melee Weapons
In-Reply-To: <F167opyFvfkWL9S28cd0000f007@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c1f639$5c01dfc0$0f01a8c0@terry>

>    The alien melee weapon thread has got me to wondering about
> non-terrestrial melee (and missile) weapons in general, and frankly,
I'm
> having a *heck* of a time trying to think of something decidedly alien
:)

How about blades strapped to the forearms and upper legs, sharp end
towards the joint and both (or more) hands covered with small shields.
Their fighting could be a kind of spinning, leaping punch blocks and
slashes with reversed direction stabs.

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 20:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Tue May  7 19:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <RELAY1Afdeid4i06b1y00004a35@relay1.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020507202325.0443a760@rollanet.org>

At 01:07 PM 5/7/02, you wrote:

>"Gentlemen, select your Bolo..."
>
>I hope the duel is taking place on a barren world. :^)
>
>     - Mark C.

If a couple of Bolo Mark XXs go at it, The world will be barren if it 
wasn't already.


--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 20:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May  7 19:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020507202325.0443a760@rollanet.org>
Message-ID: <B8FDE1CC.5A39D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/7/02 6:26 PM, Richard Wilson at rtwilson@rollanet.org wrote:

>> "Gentlemen, select your Bolo..."
>> 
>> I hope the duel is taking place on a barren world. :^)
>> 
>> - Mark C.
> 
> If a couple of Bolo Mark XXs go at it, The world will be barren if it
> wasn't already.

Yes indeed.  According to Laumer 'canon', the Mark III had 1/2 megaton per
second firepower. Hmmm.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 21:03:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May  7 20:03:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Melee Weapons
In-Reply-To: <000e01c1f639$5c01dfc0$0f01a8c0@terry>
Message-ID: <B8FDE340.5A3A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/7/02 7:37 PM, tmixon at tmixon@houston.rr.com wrote:

>> 
> How about blades strapped to the forearms and upper legs, sharp end
> towards the joint and both (or more) hands covered with small shields.
> Their fighting could be a kind of spinning, leaping punch blocks and
> slashes with reversed direction stabs.

Now we are talking.  This made me think about a circlet belt with knife
blades.  A duel is something like a lethal belly-dance.

I've also been toying with the idea of a weapon that's like a jointed sword
that's spring loaded.  Stiff enough to thrust with, but that can also be
'cracked' like a whip for slashing attacks.  Imagine the fencing techniques.

Or how about sword-like weapons shaped like a fish hook?  Used with a breast
plate and the traditional knee-knives.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 21:18:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Tue May  7 20:18:06 2002
Subject: [TML] New Theory Provides Alternative to Big Bang
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020507222547.00aac580@rollanet.org>

--=====================_18770200==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

A fifth dimension connecting planes of the universe. Possible jumpspace?

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/cosmology-02c.html

--=====================_18770200==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="New Theory Provides Alternative to Big Bang1.url"

[DEFAULT]
BASEURL=http://www.spacedaily.com/news/cosmology-02c.html

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.spacedaily.com/news/cosmology-02c.html
Modified=0029680B40F6C10194

--=====================_18770200==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com

--=====================_18770200==_--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 21:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May  7 20:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT request for help - need story identified
Message-ID: <20020507.232913.-317427.5.Knightsky@juno.com>

Okay, I'm going to try to call on the collective knowledge of the TML to
help out a friend of mine.  She's trying to identify a story that was
either edited or written by Asimov.  Her description of the story
follows.  Can anyone help us ID this story?

******************************************************************

Once upon a time (in the early 80's) I read an anthology of sf short
stories which were either written or edited (forget which) by Asimov. My
hometown library had the book... and I've never seen it again. 

***spoilers*** 

There was a story in the anthology about a woman who wakes up and finds
herself on a deserted planet. Plenty of life, just no humans. Eventually
she figures out that it's Earth; further, that she is the last human
alive. I forget how she gets the other info (in conversation with the
aliens?) but anyway, it turns out that there's this race of aliens who go
around reviving a single member of extinct intelligent species (all they
need is something like a piece of bone to revive you). Then they allow
the individual to come up with three reasons as to why their entire
species should be revived. 

Her first try is with humanity's art and culture. They respond with
memories of an alien race (also extinct) which created beauty far
surpassing anything Man ever did. A few years go by. Next, she tries the
compassion route, and they respond with an extinct race of beings who
nurtured the entire galaxy... until a war-like race which didn't value
them blew them away. 

It's her last shot... she's delayed for years, thinking over the stuff
the aliens showed her. Finally, when she fears she's near death of old
age, she calls them back to her. They wait for her third reason to revive
humanity. 

She looks straight at them. "Bring back the Compassionate Race," she
says. 

The aliens are flabbergasted. No creature has ever asked that
a*different* race be revived instead of their own. 

There's some back and forthing on it. Her reasons are that these
creatures have done more good that humanity ever did, and if they'd still
been around when humans came along, we probably wouldn't have
self-destructed. 

So the aliens confer, and decide to grant her request. Just as they're
about to do it... 

... this massive thought energy touches them all. Turns out the
compassionate race were more powerful than their murderers realized. In
their "deaths" they merely change form, becoming stronger than ever. But
they, in turn, had been watching the fledgling race that was now this
human's aliens, along with other fledgling races. So they let the others
*think* they were dead, in order to see if their fledglings would "grow
up" so to speak. In honoring the human's request and beginning to
understand how strong compassion can be (causing a creature to ask for
the revival of a species other than her own, going against the species's
survival drive), these aliens proved themselves ready to take the next
step in learning what the compassionate race offered. 

And, by the human's request, she proved her race had the potential to
warrant a second chance... so humanity got revived too. 

Really cool story... and I can't remember the story title, whether the
author was Asimov or someone else (think it was someone else), the
anthology title, or the year the anthology came out. 

Does anyone remember this story? Who wrote it? What book Asimov had it
in? Help?

     
                                       - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 21:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue May  7 20:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Customs Inspections
In-Reply-To: <000041bd02457c07d2@[192.168.0.66]>
References: <000041bd02457c07d2@[192.168.0.66]>
Message-ID: <pe6hduovdl5ojd859lal6ed1d5l4h94kh9@4ax.com>

On Tue, 7 May 2002 17:11:30 -0400, Jerry Hill
<jhill@floridadigital.net> wrote:

></LURK>
>
>I've started running my first traveller game (using GT), and am a bit
>confused about how to run customs inspections.  I've read through the =
GT:
>Far Trader and GT: Starports sections about customs, but I'm still left =
with
>some questions. =20

=46ar be it from me to announce myself as an authority on the matter,
but I'll chime in with how I handle it IMTU (if I was running one
now).

>The PCs are running about in retired scout survey ship with a small =
cargo
>hold, and are generally running freight to cover docking and refueling =
costs
>as they adventure.  Here's a couple of situations that have come up (or =
will
>come up shortly), and I was wondering how they should be run. =20

Look at it from the viewpoint of the weary customs inspector.  So many
of those half-worn out ships jumping in and out of every small port or
open field to be found within a dozen jumps of where he is working.
And with such a small cargo capacity, is it any wonder that these
ships are known to make up a disproportionate quantity of the "small
package" trade?

>The PCs, with a load of legitimate freight, approach New Rome.  Once =
they
>dock at the high port, customs comes aboard, looks at the cargo and
>determines it's all legit.  The PCs, being PCs, are also carrying a
>veritable armory of weapons and ammunition, most of which are illegal on=
 New
>Rome, but, I assume, are legal in the extra-territorial space of the
>Imperium.  Should the weapons have been placed under a customs seal =
while
>they were docked at the high port?  Should they even have been inspected=
 at
>the imperial high port, or should the cargo have only been inspected as =
they
>were offloaded and turned over to the local buyer?

=46rom the Customs agent's standpoint, and depending upon local laws,
weapons may not be of any concern.  Especially true if they are
obviously personal equipment and do not appear to be for sale within
his jurisdiction.  If he is kindly disposed toward the crew (maybe
they had a nice cup of his favorite tea brewed on his arrival), he
might offer the advice that setting foot outside the downport
extrality with those weapons is not a comfortable way to begin a
holiday on the world.

On other worlds, the customs inspector may be tasked with much more
expansive duties in enforcing laws above and beyond those governing
local trade.  Instead of having a customs clerk meet the arriving
ship, imagine the local marshall greeting them.  Yes, he would check
for the items which might violate the local customs rules (though I
suspect at a lesser degree of thoroughness), but he would also be
looking for people with warrants issued on them and other potential
troublemakers.

>Next week, the PCs will be jumping to Egypt with a load of radioactives,
>some industrial parts, and a small crate of contraband.  Assuming the =
party
>again docks at the high port, and is inspected by customs, what will the
>customs agents do when they find a box of drugs illegal on Egypt?  Does =
it
>matter if the PCs claim that it's being trans-shipped, or is speculative
>trade cargo?

As above, a conscientious customs agent will at least note the
presence of the non-permitted items and may render advice that the
crew should not attempt to sell the contraband in that jurisdiction.
A more thorough clerk will also demand to see that the contraband is
still on board when the ship prepares to leave the system.  Depending
upon the local laws, should that contraband prove missing on the exit
inspection, it might warrant an impound of the vessel to determine
what happened to the contraband.

Transhipment or claiming it is speculative cargo is a valid defense
for the presence of contraband, but it must proven and documented that
the contraband departs the jurisdiction and does not pass into local
hands.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 22:05:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue May  7 21:05:18 2002
Subject: [TML] OT request for help - need story identified
In-Reply-To: <20020507.232913.-317427.5.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205072103540.28274-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

Forwarded to my favorite ex ikaros, the most obsessive Asimov fan that I
know.  I'll let you know what he says.


On Tue, 7 May 2002 knightsky@juno.com wrote:

> Okay, I'm going to try to call on the collective knowledge of the TML to
> help out a friend of mine.  She's trying to identify a story that was
> either edited or written by Asimov.  Her description of the story
> follows.  Can anyone help us ID this story?
> 
> ******************************************************************
> 
> Once upon a time (in the early 80's) I read an anthology of sf short
> stories which were either written or edited (forget which) by Asimov. My
> hometown library had the book... and I've never seen it again. 
> 
> ***spoilers*** 
> 
> There was a story in the anthology about a woman who wakes up and finds
> herself on a deserted planet. Plenty of life, just no humans. Eventually
> she figures out that it's Earth; further, that she is the last human
> alive. I forget how she gets the other info (in conversation with the
> aliens?) but anyway, it turns out that there's this race of aliens who go
> around reviving a single member of extinct intelligent species (all they
> need is something like a piece of bone to revive you). Then they allow
> the individual to come up with three reasons as to why their entire
> species should be revived. 
> 
> Her first try is with humanity's art and culture. They respond with
> memories of an alien race (also extinct) which created beauty far
> surpassing anything Man ever did. A few years go by. Next, she tries the
> compassion route, and they respond with an extinct race of beings who
> nurtured the entire galaxy... until a war-like race which didn't value
> them blew them away. 
> 
> It's her last shot... she's delayed for years, thinking over the stuff
> the aliens showed her. Finally, when she fears she's near death of old
> age, she calls them back to her. They wait for her third reason to revive
> humanity. 
> 
> She looks straight at them. "Bring back the Compassionate Race," she
> says. 
> 
> The aliens are flabbergasted. No creature has ever asked that
> a*different* race be revived instead of their own. 
> 
> There's some back and forthing on it. Her reasons are that these
> creatures have done more good that humanity ever did, and if they'd still
> been around when humans came along, we probably wouldn't have
> self-destructed. 
> 
> So the aliens confer, and decide to grant her request. Just as they're
> about to do it... 
> 
> ... this massive thought energy touches them all. Turns out the
> compassionate race were more powerful than their murderers realized. In
> their "deaths" they merely change form, becoming stronger than ever. But
> they, in turn, had been watching the fledgling race that was now this
> human's aliens, along with other fledgling races. So they let the others
> *think* they were dead, in order to see if their fledglings would "grow
> up" so to speak. In honoring the human's request and beginning to
> understand how strong compassion can be (causing a creature to ask for
> the revival of a species other than her own, going against the species's
> survival drive), these aliens proved themselves ready to take the next
> step in learning what the compassionate race offered. 
> 
> And, by the human's request, she proved her race had the potential to
> warrant a second chance... so humanity got revived too. 
> 
> Really cool story... and I can't remember the story title, whether the
> author was Asimov or someone else (think it was someone else), the
> anthology title, or the year the anthology came out. 
> 
> Does anyone remember this story? Who wrote it? What book Asimov had it
> in? Help?
> 
>      
>                                        - Perry
> 
> "I think it's time we blow this scene...
> Get everybody and their stuff together...
> Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 22:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May  7 21:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
Message-ID: <OF27091907.6EAEF5E7-ONCA256BB3.00118968@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Rupert wrote:
>My father has always advocated a sharpened spade for use in riots.

Ah, the (in)famous Entrenching Tool.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 22:22:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May  7 21:22:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Anti-Imperial sentiments in the Imperium
Message-ID: <OF287516CF.0B15FEB0-ONCA256BB3.0011CC09@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Alan replied to Glenn:
>That's a _pan-sophontist_ anarcho-syndicalist commune with freedom of 
choice
>as to psionics, of course.
>
>That bombing was a police provocation!
>
>On behalf of the Regina Regional Committee of the Ine Givar (Solidariti),
>Alan Bradley

"But we read their minds and _knew_ they were going to attack us! Now 
_that's_ police provocation!" - anonymous Ine Givar member

I've a tagline that relates:
+-+-+-+-+
Ross Coburn's query to Glenn Grant and Roderick Darroch Elliot
Ross: "Either of you have my Referee's Companion? It's the same size/shape as 
the three MT core books, similar bad cover art, shows a guy on a scout in 
the water about to get et. I've been tearing up the apartment looking for 
it. . . ."
Darroch: "Sorry. I had to borrow it to use as an exhibit. I'm trying to use it to 
prove the existence of psionics so I can get my client off on a defense of 
pre-emptive self-defense."
Glenn's comment: "Lord help us all."
Glenn M. Grant
+-+-+-+-+
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 22:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue May  7 21:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Customs Inspections
References: <20020508023807.AFD5E279ED@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD8A88B.69A4A58F@ameritech.net>

> From: Jerry Hill <jhill@floridadigital.net>
> Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 17:11:30 -0400

<snip>

> The PCs, with a load of legitimate freight, approach New Rome.  
> Once they dock at the high port, customs comes aboard, looks 
> at the cargo and determines it's all legit.  The PCs, being 
> PCs, are also carrying a veritable armory of weapons and 
> ammunition, most of which are illegal on New Rome, but, 
> I assume, are legal in the extra-territorial space of the
> Imperium.  Should the weapons have been placed under a customs 
> seal while they were docked at the high port?  

IMTU as long as the weapons stay on the ship and the ship 
doesn't cross the XT line then no. OTOH it is usually
considered bad form to greet a customs inspection while
armed to the teeth so those PGMPs ought to be stowed in
the locker.

> Should they even have been inspected at the imperial high 
> port, or should the cargo have only been inspected as they
> were offloaded and turned over to the local buyer?

In most cases the later. Customs will inspect when the 
shipment crosses into planetary jurisdiction. If a world
has a large problem with smugglers they may board ships 
still in space and inspect. In this case the customs 
officers may flag some of the ships contents as
contraband and keep a very watchfull eye on that
vessel during the unlading process.

> 
> Next week, the PCs will be jumping to Egypt with a load of 
> radioactives, some industrial parts, and a small crate of 
> contraband.  Assuming the party again docks at the high port,
> and is inspected by customs, what will the customs agents do 
> when they find a box of drugs illegal on Egypt? Does it
> matter if the PCs claim that it's being trans-shipped, 
> or is speculative trade cargo?

As long as the illegal goods aren't being taken across the
extrality line the cargo should be OK. It's likely that 
the PCs ship will be watched more carefully at unloading
to make sure that the 'trans-shipped' goods don't 'accidentaly'
get onto the world.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 23:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue May  7 22:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
In-Reply-To: <3CD83812.1000808@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <F58sPkskqedC8mOLSSP0000e3ae@hotmail.com>
 <3CD8152B.6020300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <m3pu07wxl2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020507220105.009ff280@mindspring.com>

At 01:24 PM 5/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
>That said, the number of people officially banned from the TML over the 
>years is quite small: three (iirc), and each was given multiple chances.

Leroy, Clif, and who else?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May  7 23:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue May  7 22:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Melee Weapons
Message-ID: <200205080550.WAA12926@ping.iii.com>

"Ken Murphy" <murfnmurf@hotmail.com> writes:

>   The alien melee weapon thread has got me to wondering about 
>non-terrestrial melee (and missile) weapons in general, and frankly, I'm 
>having a *heck* of a time trying to think of something decidedly alien :)

Well, there's a lot of non-western weapons that are decidedly weird (there
are a lot of flexible weapons in the east, something that didn't really
get beyond the flail in the west), but a lot of aspects of weapons are
determined by biomechanics.
>   About the only thing *I* can think of that's even a *bit* out of the 
>ordinary are monofilament-bladed,vibro-bladed,or even nifty Energy-bladed 
>weapons :)
>   While I think the term vibroblade *sounds* pretty cool, I haven't got the 
>slightest idea how something like this might actually work, gamewise. A plus 
>on pen, damage, or both?

Realistically?  Neither reliably, a vibroblade would be sort of like a saw,
only useful if contact is extended.  If you stabbed someone this would
assist with twisting the blade in the wound (more damage) and would probably
prevent the blade from getting stuck.  If the target is immobilized, you
might be able to drill through armor.

Vibro weapons would have weird (and probably dangerous) effects when used
in combat, because they'd tend to bounce away rather rapidly (possibly also
forcing the other object away) if they even lightly touch another object.
Two vibroblades parrying would probably be rather bad for both weapons.

>   The same goes for the even *cooler* sounding monofilament; though I've 
>read Gibson's old Cyberpunk stuff, so have an *inkling* of a monofilament's 
>destructive power; though again, *no* idea what sort of penetration and 
>damage. From assorted stories, maybe it'll pen *anything*?

Cinematic monofilament goes through anything.  Realistic monofilament isn't
very interesting, and would basically snap if it hit anything.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 00:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May  7 23:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Droyne
Message-ID: <20020507.230241.-9477.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Hi all,

Just a couple of questions on the Droyne.

The library data gives me:

1. Intelligent major race inhabiting scattered worlds within an area
larger than the region of the current Third Imperium. 

2. The history of their evolution remains a puzzle because their
homeworld is not known with any certainty. 

Based on the above:

1. How far would anyone care to estimate they travelled and colonized?

2. What typical  size, atmos, hydo. world would they be drawn to?

Or is it - nobody knows, cares, and any world will do???

Turokan

..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 00:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Erich Brackmann)
Date: Tue May  7 23:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Droyne
In-Reply-To: <20020507.230241.-9477.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NFBBLDDPILPJIAJFMDJCAELCCCAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>

Hi all,

Just a couple of questions on the Droyne.

The library data gives me:

1. Intelligent major race inhabiting scattered worlds within an area
larger than the region of the current Third Imperium.

2. The history of their evolution remains a puzzle because their
homeworld is not known with any certainty.

Based on the above:

1. How far would anyone care to estimate they travelled and colonized?

2. What typical  size, atmos, hydo. world would they be drawn to?

Or is it - nobody knows, cares, and any world will do???

Turokan
	How badly do you want one of the riddles of the Traveller universe
revealed? :)
Unfortunately my copies of the original Alien modules are long gone, and I
don't think DGP ever released a third alien book.  So my memories may be
rather sketchy.
	Erich, list newbie.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 00:19:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue May  7 23:19:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20020507190957.56788.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020508061736.D321127990@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/07/02 at 12:09 PM,  Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> said:

>My thoughts on the Aslan would be that the honor makes
>it lethal.  After all, where is the honor in being
>defeated?

Paul, the way I see it, the honor is in performing the proper ritual
properly, not in the winning or losing. IMTU, an Aslan duel might well
be to "first blood" for a minor breach of honor, but to the death for
a major breach of honor,and dueling over meer disagreements would
itself be dishonorable.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 01:05:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed May  8 00:05:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Droyne
Message-ID: <200205080704.AAA10798@ping.iii.com>

generalturokan@juno.com writes:

>Hi all,
>
>Just a couple of questions on the Droyne.
>
>The library data gives me:
>
>1. Intelligent major race inhabiting scattered worlds within an area
>larger than the region of the current Third Imperium. 
>
>2. The history of their evolution remains a puzzle because their
>homeworld is not known with any certainty. 
>
>Based on the above:
>
>1. How far would anyone care to estimate they travelled and colonized?

Canon is vague.  Potentially anywhere in the galaxy, but likely less.
>
>2. What typical  size, atmos, hydo. world would they be drawn to?

Small (low gravity), fairly dense atmosphere.
>
>Or is it - nobody knows, cares, and any world will do???

There's lots of canon on Droyne; see GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 3.
Most of it is not known to Imperial citizens.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 01:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May  8 00:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020505173358.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20507.232501.2q9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>Oh, and finally:  obviously the Easter Bunny should be female.

Right. *You* tell Bun-Bun that. I'll watch from a different planet.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 01:26:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May  8 00:26:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Anecdote WRT the blade wpn discussions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020504075441.009eb420@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20507.225051.6J9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> During OSUT we received bayonet training.  The Drills patiently explained 
> that these were real, sharpened bayonets, and we needed to treat them with 
> the same respect that we gave a loaded M-16.
>
> Fat chance. Some idiot from another platoon decided that he was an expert, 
> and was showing off by flipping his bayonet in the air and catching it. Did 
> this successfully twice.  On the third thrown, the blade hit point down, 
> and went all the way through his palm.

Old National Geographic article about the Air Force Survival School out
"near" Spokane. The crews were issued hunting knives and warned they
were very sharp and should *not* be tested with the thumb. 

Some *large* percentage of the folks going thru the school had to be
treated for lacerated thumbs. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 01:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed May  8 00:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
References: <OF27091907.6EAEF5E7-ONCA256BB3.00118968@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <004e01c1f661$d5dd8650$10d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Dear Folks -
> 
> Rupert wrote:
> >My father has always advocated a sharpened spade for use in riots.
> 

Your father taught you how to riot? Cool!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 01:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Wed May  8 00:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Melee Weapons
References: <B8FDE340.5A3A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006901c1f662$423e4690$10d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >
> Now we are talking.  This made me think about a circlet belt with knife
> blades.  A duel is something like a lethal belly-dance.

Retractable groin-mounted stabbing blades, anyone?

>
> I've also been toying with the idea of a weapon that's like a jointed
sword
> that's spring loaded.  Stiff enough to thrust with, but that can also be
> 'cracked' like a whip for slashing attacks.  Imagine the fencing
techniques.
>

Robert Asprin's "The Bug Wars" has a bunch of alien melee weapons. Most are
versions of terrestrial ones, like wedge-swords and spring-javelins, but the
alter-mace was fun. Twist the handle one way and it's a rigid mace. Twist it
the other way and the midsection of the mace becomes limp and floppy for
that authentic crunchy goodness...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 02:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Wed May  8 01:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
References: <20020505081005.2BB34279CD@mail.travellercentral.com> <003301c1f43d$bb5b74c0$dd5d8690@computer> <001101c1f43f$8f565000$8cfbfea9@hr.cox.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20020505083420.009f0a60@mindspring.com> <20020506071442.A17256@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CD8E520.1060108@gmx.net>

Timothy Little wrote:

>Douglas Berry wrote:
>
>>ObTrav: Trying to explain spring festivals to the natives of a world
>>with minimal axial tilt.
>>
>
>Can't be any worse than explaining spring festivals that *really*
>occur in autumn :)
>
And  what about those people living in orbital habitats/vac worlds/etc? 
the (semi?) annual refeshing of the algae tanks?

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 03:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Wed May  8 02:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hasty words
References: <20020505.174759.-5487.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3CD8EB29.4010603@gmx.net>

generalturokan@juno.com wrote:

>
<snippage>

>
>Along with that, the orbital days of all the varied planets. Yes a 365
>day calendar was made and adopted on world X in Z system. But X is having
>difficulty holding onto it because their orbit takes 421 days. Eventually
>X is going to lose track of their historical dates, not the Imperiums.
>
hence the large sales of  calendercomps...split screen display with 
local/imperial time...basic models for one planet, advanced displays for 
multi-planet systems . Update from the time broadcast time tick in most 
imperial systems (another thing for the Office of Claender Complience to 
keep track of.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 03:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antti Lahtinen)
Date: Wed May  8 02:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508122540.00bc6c50@ee.tut.fi>

 > Yes, interesting.  But still a 'western' weapon.  How about something
 > more exotic?

         I saw a old BBC document film about Indian martial arts. The
         film showed several combat demonstrations with exotic weapons.
         Among other things there was a "Kalarippayat" fighter using the
         "urumi". At first the urumi looked like a sword handle connected
         to a spiral coil of ~5 cm wide steel strip. However, when the
         user began the sword form, the centrifugal force straightened
         the coiled blade into ~2.5 m length. The whip-like blade which
         causes long looping cuts was considered to be very effective
         weapon against unarmored opponents.

-- 
         Antti Lahtinen          antti.lahtinen@tut.fi
         MSc(Eng), researcher    http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 03:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Wed May  8 02:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020507220105.009ff280@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1f8cf$8f4447e0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 22:01
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants

At 01:24 PM 5/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
>That said, the number of people officially banned from the TML over the

>years is quite small: three (iirc), and each was given multiple
chances.

Leroy, Clif, and who else?


--

Heh. Sometimes I think me.  It seems I must post off-topic to get an
answer from anyone.  :)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 03:39:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Wed May  8 02:39:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meat
References: <105.1554bccd.2a09294e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CD8F314.7090206@gmx.net>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>>(For those that are curious, I've conducted many interesting experiments on
>>meat including hacking an old beef carcass with a bastard sword, and
>>shooting many hunks of meat.  Quite revealing.
>>
>
>The US Army wound ballistics lab has shot a few thousand pigs over the years 
>. . . they gave Frank a tour of the facility after the Desert Shield Factbook 
>was published (the military LOVED that book).
>
>LKW
>
Gaahhhh...wouldn't the PETA just love that...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 03:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  8 02:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT request for help - need story identified
In-Reply-To: <20020508073304.D89FD279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E175O0c-0005gk-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

knightsky@juno.com wrote:

> Okay, I'm going to try to call on the collective knowledge of the TML
> to help out a friend of mine.  She's trying to identify a story that
> was either edited or written by Asimov.  Her description of the story
> follows.  Can anyone help us ID this story?
> 
> ******************************************************************
> 
> Once upon a time (in the early 80's) I read an anthology of sf short
> stories which were either written or edited (forget which) by Asimov.
> My hometown library had the book... and I've never seen it again. 

<snip description>
 
I've never read this, but if anyone knows what it is, tell me too.  It 
sounds like something I'd really enjoy reading.

Thanks-

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 03:47:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  8 02:47:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Melee Weapons
In-Reply-To: <20020508073304.D89FD279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E175O0e-0005gk-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> I've also been toying with the idea of a weapon that's like a jointed
> sword that's spring loaded.  Stiff enough to thrust with, but that can
> also be 'cracked' like a whip for slashing attacks.  Imagine the
> fencing techniques.

Ah, someone else who also saw "Brotherhood of the Wolf" :)  That 
would definitely be a cool weapon.

Wrt other hi-tech melee weapons, I'm not certain I even believe in 
monofilament (although a player in one Traveller game of long ago 
had much fun creating a melee weapon that was effectively a 
monofilament weed whip).  

However, making melee weapons out of superdense and bonded 
superdense seems like an obvious way of increasing penetration 
and reducing weight.  Beyond that, you could incorporate a series 
of taser-like electrodes into the weapon to combine both stunning 
and damage.  You could even have oddities like a fencing foil 
connected to a belt pack running enough juice to fry anyone you hit 
(TL 15 batteries are powerful things).  Of course, you'd better be in 
an insulating suit while using it.

About the only energy weapons that fit in Traveller would be plasma 
blades, which would seem to be the sort of thing that you would 
want to be in battle dress or combat armor to wield (to avoid getting 
fried) but which could be pretty darn useful against starship hulls 
and other people in battle dress.  I'm guessing one of these things 
would look like a heavy fencing foil with a wide cap at the end when 
it was off.  When on, a tube of glowing plasma would run from this 
cap to the hilt.

The Darians might have some sort of safer-to-wield energy blades 
as a offshoot of their fire sculture, but such things would be very 
high tech and not likely to be more than interesting duelling 
curiousities.

Any other ideas?

Does anyone know if vibroblades would be at all useful?

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 03:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Wed May  8 02:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
References: <B8FD33BC.59FAD%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <m3wuuf7vqk.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3CD8F61A.50608@gmx.net>

Robert Uhl  wrote:

>Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
>>>I'd say that this is a key tenet of Imperial law: while worlds may make
>>>(nearly) whatever laws they wish, they cannot extend the reach of their law
>>>across interstellar space.  Thus you cannot be convicted on Regina for an
>>>activity that took place on Efate.
>>>
>>Think about the impact this would have.  It would be like eliminating all
>>extradition laws on earth. Anyone could commit any crime, and so long as
>>they got to a ship, and left system, they would be safe.
>>
>
>No--it's much like the current situation between countries.  If I kill
>someone in Turkmenistan, and the Turkmenis don't care (I'm an
>executioner, or I'm pardoned or what-have-you), then I can return home
>to Denver and neither the City & County of Denver, nor the State of
>Colorado, nor the United States Government will particularly care.
>
>Eliminating extradition is another thing entirely.  Extradition means
>that if I kill someone in Turkmenistan and skip town, and they care,
>then they file a complaint with the US Government, which goes down to
>Denver, picks me up and puts me on the first plane back.
>
>I happen to think, though, that in many cases the scenario you painted
>is exactly the way things are in the Traveller universe--much like
>things used to be in America (when one could just change states and
>start over).  It simply costs too much to go after someone for minor
>affairs.  Just let the drop that is him be lost in the sea of the
>Imperial populace, 'cause finding him will be as easy as finding a
>drop in the coean.
>
Bounty Hunters. Either Freelance or Govt Dept (Probably plainclothes 
police).

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 06:47:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Wed May  8 05:47:09 2002
Subject: [TML] re: ISSDEC: May Competition
Message-ID: <F104cLsXJB7oDaSeXnb0000e019@hotmail.com>

Paul Walker wrote:

>Independent Exploration Vessel
<snip>
>The following minimum specifications must be met.

Just a few recommendations...

<snip>
>Mission Spec:
>*  Under 20,000 Dtons.
>*  5+ years endurance (wilderness refueling allowed)

This will be a problem for some design sequences, as
they stipulate annual maintenance at a starport to prevent
drive failure and misjumps.  Unless some rules provision
exists for wilderness maintenance, endurance may as well
be limited to one year.

>*  Offensive and defensive ability to adequately
>  operate against TL11- forces.

Are we talking TL11 customs corvettes, or TL11 cruisers?
TL11 cruisers have spinal mounts, and won't be survivable
without a warship of your own.

My original idea was to include the ability to stand
off upstart TL9- savages of most sorts, and the ability
to fend off corsairs up to it's own tech level.  It wouldn't
do to make a long-range exploration vessel that gets taken
as a prize by the first Ethically Challenged Merchant
it meets, but this isn't intended to be a military incursion.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 07:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed May  8 06:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Customs Inspections
References: <000041bd02457c07d2@[192.168.0.66]>
Message-ID: <3CD92089.E6B585C3@mindspring.com>

Jerry Hill wrote:

> </LURK>
> The PCs, with a load of legitimate freight, approach New Rome.  Once they
> dock at the high port, customs comes aboard, looks at the cargo and
> determines it's all legit.  The PCs, being PCs, are also carrying a
> veritable armory of weapons and ammunition, most of which are illegal on New
> Rome, but, I assume, are legal in the extra-territorial space of the
> Imperium.  Should the weapons have been placed under a customs seal while
> they were docked at the high port?  Should they even have been inspected at
> the imperial high port, or should the cargo have only been inspected as they
> were offloaded and turned over to the local buyer?
>
> Next week, the PCs will be jumping to Egypt with a load of radioactives,
> some industrial parts, and a small crate of contraband.  Assuming the party
> again docks at the high port, and is inspected by customs, what will the
> customs agents do when they find a box of drugs illegal on Egypt?  Does it
> matter if the PCs claim that it's being trans-shipped, or is speculative
> trade cargo?

Jerry I've actually done the Landgrab for New Rome. Tod is fixing my HTML
screwups, so its not yet available at spinwardmarches.com, but if you want I can
zip up the file and send it to you. ~1Mbyte. Here is some info you might find
useful use it or not.

 1. Uniformity of Law: Territorial
 2. Legal Profile
 Overall: 6
 Weapons: 8
 Trade: 1
 Criminal law: 6
 Civil: 7
 Personal Freedom: 7

The world is operated by MYCOLONIES LIC under a renewable 300 year license. Its
due to expire, if not renewed, in 1222. With Mr. Ayers permission I worked up
Ark Ramsey, Owner and CEO of MYMINES LIC. He runs an autonomous arcology in a
northern sea. Its a MYMINES penal colony as well as the  independent government
of New Dorset. Hence the territorial law. Weapons are tightly controlled but
trade is very free. Simply declare any contraband, promise not to take it past
the XT line at either New Rome Up or New Dorset, sign the form saying you
promised and go sell cargo. New Rome Up and the port at New Dorset are run by
SPA, the others are MYCOLONIES facilities. P.S Watch out for New Rome Self
Determination Movement bombers while there. And don't forget to go Tree Kraken
hunting at Ballahack.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
So when George Bailey got his life back and the normal universe was
restored, what happened to those angels who got their wings when the
bar cash register rang in the alternate universe in which George was
never born?
-Unknown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 07:16:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed May  8 06:16:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law
References: <F75WV3qdNjMIu35pETu0000d6fa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CD923FA.BFAC1B28@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>      "We've discussed criminals who flee to another planet to avoid
> prosecution.  What about those who flee across the extrality line onto the
> starport (technically Imperial territory with LL0)?"
>
> Mr. Glenn,
>
>      While GT:Starports probably answers both of your questions and the
> List's legal boffins will provide us with nice commentary, here's how it's
> handled in a WTU*.
>      Simply put, it depends.  Starports are Imperial territory but they are
> also NOT law level 0.  This is due to "law level" in CT being little more
> than and "allowable weapons" and "cop harassment" guesstimate.  PCs can do
> more within the extrality line because the starport security folks don't
> sweat the small stuff, i.e. enforcing cultural dress codes isn't done,
> chatting up someone toting a bazooka and making suggestions with regards to
> that device's safe storage will be done.  Generally, my starport crushers
> concentrate on bodily harm and property theft/damage.  The range of
> "victimless" crimes are usually left alone.  Usually...
>      Starports will usually have a "different" law level then the system or
> polity where they are located, sometimes lower, sometimes higher.  In a
> double-zero "anarchic" world, the starport may be the only bastion of lawful
> behavior.  On a totalitarian world, the starport will be the only outpost of
> "freedom".
>      Extradition is handled on a case by case basis.  The biggest factor in
> handling extradition is the current political climate between the Imperium
> and the locals.  Where everything is chummy, you'll be handed over, without
> need of a warrant, for littering.  Where the Imperium and locals aren't
> getting along, the local cops can stuff their requests, even if you've
> murdered someone.  Of course, the Imperial starport supervisor makes the
> judegment and your particular case may become a pawn in her continuous game
> with the locals.  You could be handed over if she wants to curry favor or
> protected if she wants to "send a message".
>      Will nipping across the extrality line always save you from the local
> beadles?  Don't bet on it...
>
>      "Also, who attends to crimes committed on the starport itself, IYTU?
> What is the Imperial legal system?  How are criminals dealt with.  Where are
> they incarcerated, etc."
>
>      Once again, it depends.  What's the size of the port?  Or it's
> classification?  Or the relationship with the locals?  Huge class A ports
> will have their own cops, courts, and prisons.  What passes for a judicial
> system may simply be a carbon copy of the one on the other side of the
> extrality line.
>      Smaller ports may subcontract out portions of their security work, foot
> patrol by Wackenhut types with the nastier stuff handled by actual starport
> employees.  Some smaller ports may "rent" space in the local lockups for
> their prisoners.  Other ports may be patrolled by Army, Marine, or IISS
> detachments for various reasons.
>      Dealing with the legal system could be mean full blown jury trials
> complete with judges and advocates, hearings before magistrates, or waiting
> in prison for the "circuit riding" justice of the peace to arrive.
>      Let me use Grote for an example.  This is straight out of my Langrab
> and might not fit everyone's TUs.  The port is class A, or V.  Population is
> ~40k "legally" and ~100k altogether (counting transients, contract workers,
> and the others who don't belong to a local clan).  Government is 0 and law
> level is 4.
>      The Imperium likes to keep an eye on Grote.  It's the only class A port
> for many parsecs around, it sits on the border, the Sword Worlds have shown
> an interest in it, there's no real government, and lots of people like L.E.
> Whipsnade hang out there.  Consequently, there is a Port Warden in charge at
> the port.  She gets a baronial patent with the job, plus a small Marine
> security detachment and a few IISS/MOJ types.  Most of the foot patrol and
> doorknob rattling type of policing gets done in the starport by a
> subcontractor.  The extrality line mostly works to protect the port, and
> it's shipping and cargo, from the locals and not the other way around.
>      The port maintains a small brig but also pays a large clan, the
> Addakkumak, to store most of the port's prisoners.  Some crimes in the port
> are simply handled by throwing the miscreant across the extrality line and
> out of the port.
>      The current baron and the current Addakkumak archon are on good terms.
> Most folks who are wanted by one side or the other are handed over gladly,
> usually all either side has to do is ask.  There is one sticky point
> however, Addakkumak family politics is a blood sport and one of the losers
> in the last archonal campaign didn't go quietly into that good night or even
> move off planet.  Instead, he decided to live in the port.  The Addakkumak
> haven't exactly asked for him and the Baroness hasn't exactly said she
> wouldn't turn him over if the request came.  Besides, he hasn't done
> anything that has angered the Baroness yet and he isn't worth enough for the
> Addakkumak to press the issue.
>      Of course, this very delicate, three-way balance could come crashing
> down in all sorts of nasty ways.
>
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Thanks again Larsen. BTW I've edited your Grote messages into a single file. I'd
like to post to the list for everyone's enjoyment with your permission.

Alan


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
So when George Bailey got his life back and the normal universe was
restored, what happened to those angels who got their wings when the
bar cash register rang in the alternate universe in which George was
never born?
-Unknown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 07:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed May  8 06:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <3CD8F61A.50608@gmx.net>
References: <B8FD33BC.59FAD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <m3wuuf7vqk.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <3CD8F61A.50608@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <m3vg9ypyht.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> writes:
>
> Robert Uhl  wrote:
>
> > I happen to think, though, that in many cases the scenario you
> > painted is exactly the way things are in the Traveller
> > universe--much like things used to be in America (when one could
> > just change states and start over).  It simply costs too much to
> > go after someone for minor affairs.  Just let the drop that is him
> > be lost in the sea of the Imperial populace, 'cause finding him
> > will be as easy as finding a drop in the coean.
>
> Bounty Hunters. Either Freelance or Govt Dept (Probably plainclothes
> police).

Oh, they'll likely exist--but it's still expensive to go after folks
for minor incidents.  The bounty hunter needs to be payed, and it's
got to be worth his while.  It's just not worth the expense and
trouble in a lot of instances.

OTOH, a high LL world might believe that it's worth it to hunt down a
PC who'd spat on the sidewalk thirty years previously...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Crist aras!  Crist solice aras!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 07:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed May  8 06:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Melee Weapons
In-Reply-To: <E175O0e-0005gk-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B8FE75B1.5A410%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/8/02 2:43 AM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
>> I've also been toying with the idea of a weapon that's like a jointed
>> sword that's spring loaded.  Stiff enough to thrust with, but that can
>> also be 'cracked' like a whip for slashing attacks.  Imagine the
>> fencing techniques.
> 
> Ah, someone else who also saw "Brotherhood of the Wolf" :)  That
> would definitely be a cool weapon.

Actually, I haven't seen it.  Is it worth seeing?


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 07:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Lane)
Date: Wed May  8 06:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The days pass...
Message-ID: <OF8B4D02C3.2AD5D80C-ON85256BB3.0049FF0A@pheaa.org>





>For those of us raised on a diet of TV SF shows such as Star
>Trek, and of course, the LBBs, apparently the actor who
>played Scotty is in a coma, and is not expected to survive.

James Doohan

I was his security guard once during a Star Trek convention. Nice guy but
had a propensity to drink to much. evidentially the con promoter had made
Jimmy sign some sort of agreement not to drink during the con hours. and we
were under orders not allow him Alcoholic beverages during con hours.

Only time i ever worked security and A) felt sad because as far as i was
concerned he was a grown adult he should decide if he wants a drink or not.
B) i felt like i was having to be a nursemaid and security.

Will be a sad day when he is gone. is a nice guy.

Bill





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 07:43:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed May  8 06:43:07 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #496 - 21 msgs
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA2278F@USCHM203>

 "Rupert Boleyn"  wrote:

>The idea that humans need weapons to hurt and kill each other is a load 
>of bollocks.

Well, it was just a theory. Though Vargr and Aslan can do some serious
damage with teeth and claws that humans couldn't.
I've seen people do a lot of damage to each other, and have certainly taken
my share of it. Two broken noses and several cracked ribs over the years.
I've also had a shoe torn off my foot by a guard dog as well, which is as
close to a fight with a Vargr as I'll get.
Your flatmate's experience sounds rather brutal, especially for three
punches. 90% of fights I've seen or been involved in degenerate into
wrestling matches or get broken up before anyone gets seriously injured,
though on a few occasions I've seen some very tough guys, not neccessarily
large or imposing, do some major damage in a very short time.
This seems to be the exception, however, and these are usually people who
know how to fight. The average guy barely knows how to throw a punch
properly, but a strong and wiry guy who knows how to put his weight behind
one can be very dangerous.
Imagine what it would be like getting hit by a professional heavyweight
boxer wearing no gloves; I have no doubt that a full blow to the head could
easily kill.
No argument that humans can hurt each other without weapons. I think what
the guy was basing his idea on was the sort of ritualized fighting that
happens among wolves and such, where there is a good deal of
restraint---they're not out to kill each other.
The guy who hit your flatmate seems to have had no such restraint. What he
did was far beyond anything neccessary to teach a lesson or prove a point.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 08:29:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed May  8 07:29:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Droyne
In-Reply-To: <NFBBLDDPILPJIAJFMDJCAELCCCAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20020508142812.60099.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Erich Brackmann <kaukgannir@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> 	Erich, list newbie.
                    ^^^^^^

Has anyone assigned the sophont a newbie essay yet? :)


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 08:36:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed May  8 07:36:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: ISSDEC: May Competition
In-Reply-To: <F104cLsXJB7oDaSeXnb0000e019@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020508143549.15804.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Walt Smith <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> >Independent Exploration Vessel
> <snip>
> >The following minimum specifications must be met.
> 
> Just a few recommendations...

Well, since the competition is in full swing, I will
take them into account if we do the exploration vessel
again. :)
 
> <snip>
> >Mission Spec:
> >*  Under 20,000 Dtons.
> >*  5+ years endurance (wilderness refueling
> allowed)
> 
> This will be a problem for some design sequences, as
> they stipulate annual maintenance at a starport to
> prevent
> drive failure and misjumps.  Unless some rules
> provision
> exists for wilderness maintenance, endurance may as
> well
> be limited to one year.

I think the idea was to allow for sufficient stowage
space for maintenance, repair, and replacement items. 
Also, while your original idea was for Enterprise, I
was looking more for NCC1701.

> >*  Offensive and defensive ability to adequately
> >  operate against TL11- forces.
> 
> Are we talking TL11 customs corvettes, or TL11
> cruisers?
> TL11 cruisers have spinal mounts, and won't be
> survivable
> without a warship of your own.

As I said above, I was looking more to NCC1701 rather
than Enterprise.  It may call for some trade offs, but
will make for more interesting designs.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 08:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed May  8 07:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC May Competition
Message-ID: <20020508143930.57727.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

As stated elsewhere, the May competition is already
underway.  If you haven't gotten your design in yet,
please send it to me before the 15th.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 09:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Erich Brackmann)
Date: Wed May  8 08:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Melee Weapons
In-Reply-To: <B8FE75B1.5A410%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NFBBLDDPILPJIAJFMDJCAELGCCAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>

* Ah, someone else who also saw "Brotherhood of the Wolf" :)  That
> would definitely be a cool weapon.

Actually, I haven't seen it.  Is it worth seeing?

 Yes.
- Erich


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 10:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed May  8 09:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <F58sPkskqedC8mOLSSP0000e3ae@hotmail.com> <3CD8152B.6020300@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <m3pu07wxl2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20020507220105.009ff280@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CD95805.4030802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 01:24 PM 5/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> That said, the number of people officially banned from the TML over 
>> the years is quite small: three (iirc), and each was given multiple 
>> chances.
> 
> 
> Leroy, Clif, and who else?

Something's tickling at the back of my mind regarding one other, but 
more than likely iiri...comes with a lifetime case of CRS...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 11:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed May  8 10:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law
Message-ID: <F155ZNuIkdg0MZMtjQ40000e2c9@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "Thanks again Larsen. BTW I've edited your Grote messages into a single 
file. I'd like to post to the list for everyone's enjoyment with your 
permission."


Mr. Spik,

     Post away, sir!  The fervid ramblings of my abnormal mental processes 
are meant to be shared with all and sundry.  It's only in that manner that I 
can become the All-Time TML Killfile Champion!
     FWIW, I've finally tracked down a nifty mapping program, Autorealm, and 
am currently teaching it to myself.  I do not have a single artistic 
chromosone in my genome, I can't even draw a bath, so the learning curve has 
been rather steep.  At the moment, I have two saved files.  One is of a hat 
and the other is not.
     Thanks to Mr. Wayne Gibbons, one of nature's gentlemen, I have a superb 
set of "nesting" hex maps.  Once I'm able to colour them in at a level above 
that of a kindergartner, my two Landgrabs will be complete.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 11:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  8 10:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hasty words
Message-ID: <110.11defa72.2a0ab7a5@aol.com>

In a message dated 08/05/02 02:42:28 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk 
writes:

<Quote>
My suggestion was "The unsanctioned termination of a sapient being". The
'unsanctioned' bit gave the Imperium it's wiggle room, since the Imperium
reserves the right to decide who is and isn't qualified to sanction
terminations (basically any government recognized by the Imperium).

</Quote>

One problem I have with the idea of Imperial Law is universality. I think we 
would all agree that any Imperium wide legal code must be applicable anywhere 
and to any individual or company. In this however lies the seeds of the 
destruction of any concept of Imperial Law since, I would contend, in a 
society such as the Imperium universal definitions of pretty much anything is 
impossible.

Let's take murder as our example because the root problem of when is a 
killing murder also shows up the problems in things such as property law. The 
problem is of course defining whether a being can be offered the protection 
of law. The above example of a potential definition of murder shows the 
problem well because on the surface it seems reasonable but on examination is 
shown to be unworkable.

We cannot use "sapience" as a definition of those protected by law for a 
number of reasons. Sapience does not apply to all members of a species at all 
times. It is conceivable that an individual may be born decerebrate and thus 
never achieve sapience. They would not be protected by law. Furthermore some 
species may have non-sapient parts of their life-cycle (Hivers, although the 
example may not be correct, spring to mind) and are therefore not protected 
by law at certain times of their life.

We can apparently escape from this dilemma by changing the wording of the 
"sapient" definition of murder to something like "The unsanctioned 
termination of any member of a sapient species" but we then run into a new 
one. Low commitment (LK) parenting strategies (such as those used by the 
Hiver) involve the abandonment of young to the mercy of the wilderness. Does 
the Imperium consider the killing of Hiver young murder or no crime at all? 
If it takes the sapient species route it must condemn such killings as murder 
and consider any Hiver who drops spawn in an Imperial jurisdiction at least 
guilty of child endangerment. 

Of course the Imperium can easily get round the Hiver problem by exempting 
them from at least part of the law on murder. However in doing so it presents 
itself with new problems. Having set the precedent in the case of Hivers how 
does it apply that precedent to other species and when do Hiver young gain 
the protection of law?

Of course the most acute problem facing any definition of murder that uses 
the term "sapient" is defining exactly what is meant by that term. The 
definition must be both wide enough to cover all sapient species within the 
Imperium and narrow enough not to include faux sapients. Furthermore any 
definition must be simple enough to be applicable on some backwater with 
limited access to high tech equipment and must be applicable only after a 
limited encounter with a new species. I can't think of such a definition and 
there is evidence from canon that the Imperium can't either.*

If the Imperium cannot universally define murder, and it is my contention 
that it can't, then it is deep trouble because all law must be based on the 
ability to define who or what is protected. With no universal definition of 
murder there can be no universal definition of property and I leave it to 
your imagination where that might lead.

I mentioned in an earlier post on a related matter that IMTU all Imperial Law 
is based on precedent (that is it is common law rather than statute law) and 
I hope that I have illustrated some of the reasons why I hold that position.

I was going to tackle the use of the word "termination" but I've rambled on 
too long :)
  
Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 11:21:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed May  8 10:21:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law
Message-ID: <F204lGVECooXMdNWYmX0000e2a2@hotmail.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

     "...handled in a WTU*."


Ladies and Gentlemen,

     My apologies.  The footnote for the above did not make into my post to 
this thread yesterday.
     There are MTUs and YTUs.  One special type is WTU; a Whipsnadian 
Traveller Universe.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 11:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  8 10:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Melee Weapons
In-Reply-To: <20020508172105.6B4CE279CD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E175VHZ-0005RZ-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>

> on 5/8/02 2:43 AM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com

> > Ah, someone else who also saw "Brotherhood of the Wolf" :)  That
> > would definitely be a cool weapon.
> 
> Actually, I haven't seen it.  Is it worth seeing?

Yes, it's fun and visually stunning, but if you don't like Hong Kong 
action flicks, then you likely won't like this one (despite the fact 
that it's French).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 11:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed May  8 10:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <F58sPkskqedC8mOLSSP0000e3ae@hotmail.com> <3CD8152B.6020300@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <m3pu07wxl2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20020507220105.009ff280@mindspring.com> <3CD95805.4030802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CD9627A.3050308@attbi.com>


Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
>> At 01:24 PM 5/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>> That said, the number of people officially banned from the TML over 
>>> the years is quite small: three (iirc), and each was given multiple 
>>> chances.
>>
>>
>>
>> Leroy, Clif, and who else?
> 
> 
> Something's tickling at the back of my mind regarding one other, but 
> more than likely iiri...comes with a lifetime case of CRS...
 
Legate....  mr racial group of the month.


-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss,
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 11:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed May  8 10:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC May Competition
References: <20020508143930.57727.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CD96602.4030707@attbi.com>


Paul Walker wrote:

> As stated elsewhere, the May competition is already
> underway.  If you haven't gotten your design in yet,
> please send it to me before the 15th.
> 


OH, the thudd replacement is running? Off list? Gee isn't that what
killed the Thudd?

-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss,
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 12:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed May  8 11:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC May Competition
Message-ID: <F186iHY5FbEFYamNfN10000b1ca@hotmail.com>



Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
>As stated elsewhere, the May competition is already
>underway.  If you haven't gotten your design in yet,
>please send it to me before the 15th.
>
>Paul

Expect to recieve all designs the last day or so. My design is mostly done 
and I have written around 2 pages of descriptive text. Should I send it to 
your traveller_tv@yahoo.com address when its finished?


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 12:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed May  8 11:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Melee Weapons
In-Reply-To: <E175VHZ-0005RZ-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B8FEBC09.5A4C1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/8/02 10:29 AM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> 
> Yes, it's fun and visually stunning, but if you don't like Hong Kong
> action flicks, then you likely won't like this one (despite the fact
> that it's French).
> 

Being a John Woo fan, I think I'll be OK.  Thanks.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 12:34:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed May  8 11:34:11 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC May Competition
In-Reply-To: <3CD96602.4030707@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20020508183329.93708.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@attbi.com> wrote:
> 
> OH, the thudd replacement is running? Off list? Gee
> isn't that what
> killed the Thudd?
> 

No, actually the announcement was put up here on the
list.  The elsewhere I mentioned was in another post.

I will keep it on the TML until and unless the powers
that be will send me packing.

The voting may be on the web, but the announcements
and such will remain on the TML as long as it can.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 12:36:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed May  8 11:36:06 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC May Competition
In-Reply-To: <F186iHY5FbEFYamNfN10000b1ca@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020508183553.10831.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Expect to recieve all designs the last day or so. My
> design is mostly done 
> and I have written around 2 pages of descriptive
> text. Should I send it to 
> your traveller_tv@yahoo.com address when its
> finished?
> 

I was afraid of that, but I should have expected it.
:)

Yes, send the submission directly to me
(traveller_tv@yahoo.com) and include the following:

ARCHITECT NAME: (you)
DESIGN COMPANY: (if applicable)
DESIGN SYSTEM:  (CT, MT, FF&S, GT, etc)

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 12:40:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed May  8 11:40:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <110.11defa72.2a0ab7a5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508134048.04a80800@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:17 PM 5/8/2002, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>I think we would all agree that any Imperium wide legal code must be 
>applicable anywhere and to any individual or company.

Correct, however I would also like to stress that my concept of Imperial 
law is that it serves as a minimum standard.  Imperial law as actually 
implemented is subject to the interpretation of the Imperial Nobility and 
the world governments that wind up administering this law to the bulk of 
Imperial citizens.  Thus, most worlds with some sort of government and law 
actually have made decisions on the details of the definition (or have much 
broader and tightly-defined statues that satisfactorily cover the same 
cases as Imperial law).

>I would contend, in a society such as the Imperium universal definitions 
>of pretty much anything is impossible.

It seems to me that you have the concept of Imperial law as some sort of 
immutable, universal definition.  I would suggest that this is not the case 
- it's more of a minimum standard or yardstick, with a lot of leeway for 
local interpretation and variation.  In the suggested murder law, the two 
major points of wiggle room are in the definition of "sapient" and 
"unsanctioned".

Planetary governments and the Imperial government (in the form of local 
Nobility at the world, subsector, and sector levels) will almost certainly 
negotiate on these points.  The goal of the Imperium is to see that all of 
the member worlds meet or exceed the protection of the minimum.  Individual 
cultures and governments will vary considerably.

Thus, worlds with overly-narrow murder statutes (for example, a world where 
only the killing of a True Believer is murder) will be coerced into 
expanding their definition to meet the Imperial standard.  Worlds with 
broad murder statutes (for example, a planet of vegetarians that define the 
killing of any animal life to be murder) are just fine - since they can 
demonstrate that they easily meet the Imperial standard.

Similar issues can be had with the "unsanctioned" term.  This is probably 
even more at the discretion of the local Imperial Nobility and the 
governments of an individual world.  Since sanction can be granted by a 
number of different authorities on all sorts of grounds, this is probably 
the biggest point for negotiation and interpretation.  Some worlds may feel 
(for example), that the simple act of trespassing is sufficient to sanction 
the use of lethal force against the trespassers.  Other worlds may 
categorically deny the use of lethal force to ordinary citizens regardless 
of the reason.

>We cannot use "sapience" as a definition of those protected by law for a
>number of reasons. Sapience does not apply to all members of a species at all
>times. It is conceivable that an individual may be born decerebrate and thus
>never achieve sapience.

Correct.  I don't see where this is a problem.

Since Imperial law is a minimum standard, worlds are free to re-write the 
law to cover their specific cases.  Thus, the termination of a non-sapient 
member of a sapient species is not an Imperial crime - it may or may not be 
a crime on various Imperial worlds, depending on how that local culture 
feels about it.  To use your Hiver example, since Hiver larvae are not 
sapient, Hiver societies break no Imperial laws.  A Human world may have 
laws that extend to definition of murder to non-sapient members of a 
normally-sapient species, and the Imperium would be OK with this.

I agree that there would be some issue of determining sapience or not.  In 
most cases, I think that the IISS would be called upon to determine if a 
given species was sapient or not, and members of that species would be 
assumed to be sapient unless proven otherwise.  In cases like the Hivers, 
the IISS notes on the species would define when sapience was achieved and 
the individual receives protection under the law.

It's also important to realize that enforcement of the laws will vary from 
region to region and time to time, both for cultural reasons, and because 
the Imperial laws must be interpreted and administered by people - the 
Imperial Nobility.

>I mentioned in an earlier post on a related matter that IMTU all Imperial Law
>is based on precedent (that is it is common law rather than statute law) and
>I hope that I have illustrated some of the reasons why I hold that position.

I don't think I'm disagreeing with you, actually.

Thus, while the Imperial law may read "unsanctioned termination of a 
sapient life form", the exact definitions of the terms probably come from 
tradition, precedent and negotiation: common law as you have 
described.  Some technical details (particularly things like "sapient" and 
"life form") will likely rest on IISS evaluations.

There are several plot hooks here for players.  The most obvious is in a 
Scout based campaign, where the players are asked to investigate some of 
these terms.  In addition, the wide variety of possible interpretations 
allows for wide variation between different worlds.  The aforementioned 
religious world may be forced to keep the Imperial definition of murder on 
the books - but this doesn't mean the local enforcers will be enthusiastic 
about investigating:
   "Someone killed an offworld nonbeliever last night?  And why do I 
care?  We're busy enough here as it is!  Oh, it was Baron VanTerrance's 
son?  I guess that means we have to investigate, huh?  Well, put the 
departmental screw-ups on the case."  (The PCs must then "observe and 
assist" in the investigation as the Baron's representatives ...).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 12:50:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed May  8 11:50:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Deckplan Article
Message-ID: <3CD9730B.9998061D@premier.net>

The following URL was posted to the Starship/Vehicle Design board on
JTAS.  While the article is specifically aimed at the Star Wars setting,
it does have plenty of useful advice for deckplans for any SFRPG,
including Traveller.

http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/deckplan/deckplan.html

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 13:28:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed May  8 12:28:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Who wants to be immortalized?
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508122536.009f44f0@mindspring.com>

As a nutzo Baron into strange social Darwinism?

I've run out of names for Trojan Reach, and need a volunteer.  Nobody I've 
used before, please.

Please email me.  I'll let you know if I use your name.

TIA!

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 13:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed May  8 12:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <F58sPkskqedC8mOLSSP0000e3ae@hotmail.com> <3CD8152B.6020300@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <m3pu07wxl2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20020507220105.009ff280@mindspring.com> <3CD95805.4030802@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <3CD9627A.3050308@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <3CD97DCF.6010606@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Evyn MacDude wrote:
> 
>>
>> Something's tickling at the back of my mind regarding one other, but 
>> more than likely iiri...comes with a lifetime case of CRS...
> 
> 
> Legate....  mr racial group of the month.
> 
> 

Gee thanks, I'd supressed that memory 'till now. :-P

However, this does bring into sharper focus the issue at hand...Citizen 
Sears is hardly someone worthy of admission into *that* particular Hall 
of Infamy.

Merely saying 'f*ck' a lot, and generally acting like a snotty 12-year 
old doesn't quite rank up with secret TL-21 ROM canon, snipers who can 
pot a penny at three miles through forests, global mormon-anti-mormon 
conspiracies of pedophiles, and militant jewish terrorists...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 13:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May  8 12:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Who wants to be immortalized?
Message-ID: <200205081937.FVD53848@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Baron Sylvester Armantell

---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 12:28:09 -0700
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>  
>Subject: [TML] Who wants to be immortalized?  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>As a nutzo Baron into strange social Darwinism?
>
>I've run out of names for Trojan Reach, and need a 
volunteer.  Nobody I've 
>used before, please.
>
>Please email me.  I'll let you know if I use your name.
>
>TIA!
>
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
>http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
>"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
>sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 13:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Wed May  8 12:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
In-Reply-To: <3CD97DCF.6010606@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205081240260.24485-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 8 May 2002, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Evyn MacDude wrote:
> > 
> >>
> >> Something's tickling at the back of my mind regarding one other, but 
> >> more than likely iiri...comes with a lifetime case of CRS...
> > 
> > Legate....  mr racial group of the month.
> 
> Gee thanks, I'd supressed that memory 'till now. :-P

UGH!!!

I ran into him on some BDSM club on Yahoo! and asked him if he was the
same Legate from the TML, and the bastard called me by my real name
in his response!  I'll have to take you on an 'outing' sometime,
dood!

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 13:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed May  8 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
In-Reply-To: <3CD97DCF.6010606@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <F58sPkskqedC8mOLSSP0000e3ae@hotmail.com>
 <3CD8152B.6020300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <m3pu07wxl2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020507220105.009ff280@mindspring.com>
 <3CD95805.4030802@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <3CD9627A.3050308@attbi.com>
 <3CD97DCF.6010606@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m3adrazalm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>
> snipers who can pot a penny at three miles through forests

*sniff*  Amateurs.
-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cristo Resucita!  En Verdad Resucita!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 14:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed May  8 13:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <F58sPkskqedC8mOLSSP0000e3ae@hotmail.com>	<3CD8152B.6020300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>	<m3pu07wxl2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>	<5.1.0.14.2.20020507220105.009ff280@mindspring.com>	<3CD95805.4030802@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <3CD9627A.3050308@attbi.com>	<3CD97DCF.6010606@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <m3adrazalm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3CD98821.6020906@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Robert Uhl  wrote:
> Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
>>snipers who can pot a penny at three miles through forests
> 
> 
> *sniff*  Amateurs.

Oh, man, you did NOT want to be here then...it was bad. Go looking 
through the archives of the list for that time (IIRC it was soon after 
the release of T4...)

There's a reason the 'Secret ROM is TL21' topic is one of the Six 
Eternal Flames of the TML (The others being: Pirates, Feudal 
Technocracy/Technocratic Feudalism ("Tastes Great! Less Filling!" 
summarizes *that* argument well), near-C rocks, Virus and female Aslan 
in comfortable shoes)

Hmmm...six eternal flames, six coynes, six l;egs on a Hiver...it IS a plot!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 14:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed May  8 13:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Deckplan Article
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36CC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Nice find.  Reading it now :)
Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: John Groth [mailto:wombat@premier.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 11:49 AM
To: Traveller Mailing List
Subject: [TML] Deckplan Article


The following URL was posted to the Starship/Vehicle Design board on
JTAS.  While the article is specifically aimed at the Star Wars setting,
it does have plenty of useful advice for deckplans for any SFRPG,
including Traveller.

http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/deckplan/deckplan.html

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 14:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Wed May  8 13:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205081350120.24485-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

I realized this was too "good" to keep on my own list.

Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 11:25:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: [HouseAtaniell] a head-beating moment

A girl in our office is telling everyone that her name, DeBrine, comes
from Star Trek.  She says she is named after Spock's wife.

I suppose you could kind of get DeBrine out of T'Pring but now she is
telling us all about how her mother told her that Spock's wife DeBrine was
human and she died on this planet because she couldn't breathe the
atmosphere and wouldn't leave him.

Now, you might be able to get that out of "This Side of Paradise" I
guess, assuming you were stoned when you watched it-- but she says she saw
her name in the credits.

I don't know what to say.  I guess nothing is probably best.  I mean,
there is really no polite way to tell her it's wrong, especially when
she's telling everyone that she's seen the episode.

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN

**************************************************
Love is the Law, Love under Will.

May the Red Goddess bring you Compassion and Inspiration; may the Lord of
Secrets bring you all the Truth you can handle.

93! all Ataniell Cycle content copyright 2001 Kiri Aradia Morgan 
all non-Ataniell Cycle original material copyright 2001 to its respective
creators



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 15:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed May  8 14:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205081350120.24485-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3CD99649.3050300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> I realized this was too "good" to keep on my own list.
> 
> Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 11:25:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
> Subject: [HouseAtaniell] a head-beating moment
> 
> A girl in our office is telling everyone that her name, DeBrine, comes
> from Star Trek.  She says she is named after Spock's wife.
> 

This is so sad, on so many levels...it's almost an entire Jerry Springer 
show unto itself...



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 16:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May  8 15:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Dreadnaught Wars Return
In-Reply-To: <200205050130.FQN00348@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20508.150221.0M7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> So, all I have to do to sabotage an Imperial battleship is to 
> somehow make an EVA approach in port to glue a block of steel 
> inside one of her main drive tubes (probably doesn't have to 
> be a complete obstruction).  After she moves away from the 
> dock on verniers, and starts the main drive - BOOM.

Nope. You throttle up the engines slowly. Partly *because* of the
consequences of failures in the engine.

So that block of steel starts melting and drips away, the last bits
vaporize as the engine continues to throttle up. And the engineers note
that the startup was a bit ragged and check it out after they achieve
orbit. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 16:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed May  8 15:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36CE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

ROFLMAO!!!  Bruce, you can have such a way with words sometimes :)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson [mailto:johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 2:19 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)


Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> I realized this was too "good" to keep on my own list.
> 
> Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 11:25:42 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
> Subject: [HouseAtaniell] a head-beating moment
> 
> A girl in our office is telling everyone that her name, DeBrine, comes
> from Star Trek.  She says she is named after Spock's wife.
> 

This is so sad, on so many levels...it's almost an entire Jerry Springer 
show unto itself...



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 16:13:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Wed May  8 15:13:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Melee Weapons
In-Reply-To: <B8FDE340.5A3A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000101c1f6dd$d17a67f0$0f01a8c0@terry>

> > How about blades strapped to the forearms and upper legs, sharp end
> > towards the joint and both (or more) hands covered with small
shields.
> > Their fighting could be a kind of spinning, leaping punch blocks and
> > slashes with reversed direction stabs.
> 
> Now we are talking.  This made me think about a circlet belt with
knife
> blades.  A duel is something like a lethal belly-dance.

That is exactly how I had pictured it. If someone could describe the
aliens in question, it might make it easier to come up with a different
kind of weapon or fighting style.
 
> I've also been toying with the idea of a weapon that's like a jointed
> sword
> that's spring loaded.  Stiff enough to thrust with, but that can also
be
> 'cracked' like a whip for slashing attacks.  Imagine the fencing
> techniques.
> 
> Or how about sword-like weapons shaped like a fish hook?  Used with a
> breast plate and the traditional knee-knives.

Both sound like good ideas.

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 16:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed May  8 15:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Deckplan Article
References: <3CD9730B.9998061D@premier.net>
Message-ID: <3CD9A31B.504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John Groth wrote:
> The following URL was posted to the Starship/Vehicle Design board on
> JTAS.  While the article is specifically aimed at the Star Wars setting,
> it does have plenty of useful advice for deckplans for any SFRPG,
> including Traveller.
> 
> http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/deckplan/deckplan.html
> 

I LOVE the flying fork!!! ROFL!!!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 16:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed May  8 15:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Web site Update and Die Roller program available
Message-ID: <20020508223826.D9EEB279CD@mail.travellercentral.com>

I placed a die roller program I have written on the web. It is
available for download at both:

   http://erisr.myip.org

   http://crosswinds.net/~erisr

The program runs on Win32 systems and allows you to choose from up to
10 different type of dice and roll up to 10 of them at a time. 

I have also updated the starcharts for Reavers' Deep to include maps
of each subsector as well as UWP data and subsector information
writeups.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 16:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed May  8 15:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Hasty words
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKELLCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
>
>We got it probably from Swedish, there it is "jul", pronounced something
>like 'yuul'.

"Yule" is the English name for the great pagan holiday at the winter
solstice, celebrated throughout northern Europe long before Jesus' birth.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 16:47:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed May  8 15:47:42 2002
Subject: [TML] re:Today's Haiku
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELLCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

Vargr jiujitsu
Effective against humans
You see many teeth

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 17:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed May  8 16:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: James Doohan
In-Reply-To: <20020508172105.6B4CE279CD@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020508172105.6B4CE279CD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <h9bjdu4umat93fudg7iqvdjn3dn3mfku3u@4ax.com>

On Wed, 08 May 2002 10:19:04 -0700, "William Lane" <wlane@aessuccess.org>
wrote:

>>For those of us raised on a diet of TV SF shows such as Star
>>Trek, and of course, the LBBs, apparently the actor who
>>played Scotty is in a coma, and is not expected to survive.

>James Doohan

>I was his security guard once during a Star Trek convention. Nice guy but
>had a propensity to drink to much. evidentially the con promoter had made
>Jimmy sign some sort of agreement not to drink during the con hours. and we
>were under orders not allow him Alcoholic beverages during con hours.

>Only time i ever worked security and A) felt sad because as far as i was
>concerned he was a grown adult he should decide if he wants a drink or not.
>B) i felt like i was having to be a nursemaid and security.

>Will be a sad day when he is gone. is a nice guy.

Yep, and he's expected to be one for quite a while longer.  He _was_ in the
hospital - pneumonia, according to a couple of normally-reliable sources -
but has been released and has returned home and is convalescing.  At no
time was he comatose.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 17:04:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed May  8 16:04:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Flamewar Haiku
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAELNCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

A brand new flamewar
Not rocks, pirates, feudal tech
Swordsmen stab gently

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 17:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed May  8 16:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Melee Weapons
In-Reply-To: <B8FDE340.5A3A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020508231009.27654279F0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/07/02 at 08:02 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:


>Or how about sword-like weapons shaped like a fish hook?  Used with a
>breast plate and the traditional knee-knives.

Sword like weapon shaped like a fish hook? That sounds like a sword
used in ancient Ethopia. No thrust, no cut, just reach out and hook
the other guy.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 17:15:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May  8 16:15:34 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
Message-ID: <200205082312.FVJ05645@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>> Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>> 
>>>snipers who can pot a penny at three miles through forests
>> 
>> 
>> *sniff*  Amateurs.

Gosh, that sounds like something by James Fenimore Cooper.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 17:19:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May  8 16:19:15 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)
Message-ID: <200205082318.FVK00239@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan writes
>Now, you might be able to get that out of "This Side of 
>Paradise" I guess, assuming you were stoned when you watched 
>it-- but she says she saw her name in the credits.
>

I've always been convinced that everyone around me is holding 
out on me and smoking the really good dope.  Perhaps my 
decades of "escapism" playing Traveller (really! that's what 
my dad always said it was!) have served as a better grounding 
in reality - either that, or the gearhead in me has forced a 
little more attention to detail.  

I can't listen to most office chat, because there are a dozen 
people who are completely disconnected from reality who sit 
near me.

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 17:38:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed May  8 16:38:07 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205081350120.24485-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205081350120.24485-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b8ff671673c5@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:54 PM -0700 5/8/02, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>I don't know what to say.  I guess nothing is probably best.  I mean,
>there is really no polite way to tell her it's wrong, especially when
>she's telling everyone that she's seen the episode.

She's happy, what difference does it make if she's wrong?
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 17:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Wed May  8 16:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8ff671673c5@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205081641450.24485-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 8 May 2002, David P. Summers wrote:

> At 1:54 PM -0700 5/8/02, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> >I don't know what to say.  I guess nothing is probably best.  I mean,
> >there is really no polite way to tell her it's wrong, especially when
> >she's telling everyone that she's seen the episode.
> 
> She's happy, what difference does it make if she's wrong?

Actually she says she's always hated Star Trek for making her feel weird,
and she's telling the world that Spock's wife is DeBrine, which shouldn't
bother me as much as it does.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 17:44:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed May  8 16:44:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Melee Weapons of the Imperium
Message-ID: <memo.236288@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <Springmail.0994.1020825205.0.34002500@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>-

>Anybody wanna duel a pissed-off Gurkha?

Not particularly - and the kukri is my blade weapon of choice (she says, 
patting hers fondly...)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 17:48:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Wed May  8 16:48:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Gamelords and Judges Guild Traveller Material
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8ff671673c5@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205081350120.24485-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <p04330103b8ff671673c5@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <200205081952490043.09370116@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

For those interested, we just got a small shipment of old Gamelords=
 Traveller material in, along with copies of the JG Traveller Logbook. All=
 are in excellent condition, and we have about 11 of each.

Gamelords
http://www.TravellerRPG.com/Classic/gamelords.html

Judges Guild
http://www.TravellerRPG.com/Classic/jguild.html

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 17:50:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Wed May  8 16:50:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Scheduled Chats in #traveller (Undernet IRC)
References: <20020507130908.90AC2279CD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <042801c1f6eb$0d0d2fc0$1fa45940@dixienet.com>

Chats, Traveller..........okkkkk- where, when?  Translate to CST, USA
please..

John Strain
.
>
> Weekend chats would probably be easiest to organise.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 17:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Wed May  8 16:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Scheduled Chats in #traveller (Undernet IRC)
In-Reply-To: <042801c1f6eb$0d0d2fc0$1fa45940@dixienet.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEHPDNAA.tml@downport.com>

undernet.org, Internet Relay Chat, #traveller, right now...

scheduled special topic chats are yet to be determined (coming soon to an
IRC client near YOU!)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John Strain
>
> Chats, Traveller..........okkkkk- where, when?  Translate to CST, USA
> please..



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 18:01:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed May  8 17:01:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Hasty Words
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA2278D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3CDA64EE.16345.870E0F@localhost>

On 8 May 2002 at 9:17, Hurrel, Brian wrote: 

> Well, it was just a theory. Though Vargr and Aslan can do some serious
> damage with teeth and claws that humans couldn't.
> I've seen people do a lot of damage to each other, and have certainly taken
> my share of it. Two broken noses and several cracked ribs over the years.
> I've also had a shoe torn off my foot by a guard dog as well, which is as
> close to a fight with a Vargr as I'll get.
> Your flatmate's experience sounds rather brutal, especially for three
> punches.

It was. I'm glad the guy who did it was willing to leave afterwards, as 
otherwise I would've been finding out if a wide-bladed carving knife 
(what was to hand) is any good in a fight when the wielder isn't a 
skilled knife fighter and the other guy is bigger and stronger than 
they. 

> No argument that humans can hurt each other without weapons. I think
> what the guy was basing his idea on was the sort of ritualized
> fighting that happens among wolves and such, where there is a good
> deal of restraint---they're not out to kill each other. The guy who
> hit your flatmate seems to have had no such restraint. What he did
> was far beyond anything neccessary to teach a lesson or prove a
> point. 

The guy in question was known for his lack of restraint. When my 
faltmate proved willing to press charges the cops almost wet themselves 
with joy, because they'd been after this guy for over a year and no-one 
was willing to press charges. 


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 18:02:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed May  8 17:02:28 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
In-Reply-To: <004e01c1f661$d5dd8650$10d293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CDA64ED.3813.870C66@localhost>

On 8 May 2002 at 8:27, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> 
> 
> > Dear Folks -
> > 
> > Rupert wrote:
> > >My father has always advocated a sharpened spade for use in riots.
> > 
> 
> Your father taught you how to riot? Cool!

My father is a very sensible and surprisingly well-read man. He used to 
take great glee in popping the egos of the research scientists where he 
works by quoting chunks of the classics to them after they'd 
condescendingly put everything in 'plain english' for him. He once said 
his biggest regret was that he couldn't do it in the original Latin or 
Greek.

As for the rioting, I suspect that he's probably put more thought into 
these minor things than most, though he's a very non-violent person be 
inclination.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 18:18:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  8 17:18:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Justice, etc.
Message-ID: <185.814220a.2a0b1a07@aol.com>

>>> On top of this, I'd also suggest that certain acts (such as murder)
>>> are Imperial crimes, and illegal everywhere.
>> 
>> I'd disagree.  In the US (a much more centralised government than the
>> 3I), murder is not a federal crime.
>
>Ah, but it can be.  Under civil rights violations.  You're depriving someone
>of their civil rights. 

I'm not a lawyer, but isn't murder on federal property (like a government 
building or a federal park) a federal crime? Likewise, killing a federal 
agent?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 18:26:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed May  8 17:26:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #500 - 28 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020509000644.6DAFA27A26@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020509000644.6DAFA27A26@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <38gjdu8ucvv73khpu27kd1ui7lngk76bk0@4ax.com>

On Wed, 08 May 2002 17:01:05 -0700, "John Strain" <missingjn@dixie-net.com>
wrote:

>Chats, Traveller..........okkkkk- where, when?  Translate to CST, USA
>please..

Channel #traveller, IRC network Undernet, day and time not as yet
determined; I want FEEDBACK so I can set the times for maximum
participation.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 18:28:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May  8 17:28:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Hasty Words
Message-ID: <200205090025.FVN00420@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
>
>It was. I'm glad the guy who did it was willing to leave 
>afterwards, as otherwise I would've been finding out if a 
>wide-bladed carving knife (what was to hand) is any good in 
>a fight when the wielder isn't a skilled knife fighter and 
>the other guy is bigger and stronger than they. 
>

The only people I've hurt badly (physically) in my life I did 
with my bare hands in a few hits, and I'm neither large nor a 
martial artist.

In both cases I broke bones. The first was a shattered 
collarbone and fractured skull in two hits, the second was an 
arm broken backwards through the elbow joint in a single hit.

The first person was a former roommate who turned towards me 
with a carving knife after some threatening words (I didn't 
stop to ask "what's going to happen next?").  The second was 
a female protestor who stepped into the two-meter zone and 
punched me (to no effect).

I have been severely beaten in several fights, and have had 
ribs broken more than once, including a cracked sternum.  It 
only takes one good hit for bad things to happen.

ObTrav:  The combat model for melee is poorly done in most 
systems, and is often crudely overlaid or mixed with the 
firearms combat model.  This doesn't work very well.  The 
PCCS hand to hand wasn't very good either, but they had an 
Animal supplement that showed some promise (Kick, Bite, 
Stomp, Trample, Claw, etc., were different).  The timing was 
mixed with the firearms combat, but the damage model was 
different.

It is possible to kill someone or put them in the hospital 
with a single punch, kick, or stomp.  Add a melee weapon, and 
the odds go up.  OTOH, people can be struck or stabbed 40 
times and walk to the hospital on their own.  
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 18:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed May  8 17:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)
Message-ID: <F152DYWOGyZ9Y1fm5qz0000e960@hotmail.com>

From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>

     "I don't know what to say.  I guess nothing is probably best.  I mean, 
there is really no polite way to tell her it's wrong, especially when she's 
telling everyone that she's seen the episode."

     "Actually she says she's always hated Star Trek for making her feel 
weird, and she's telling the world that Spock's wife is DeBrine, which 
shouldn't bother me as much as it does."


Ms. Morgan,

     Bit of a pickle, isn't it?  Doing nothing is probably the best thing, 
but her conversation will still be grating.  I had a co-worker once who 
pronounced jalapeno with a hard "j" and faux pas as "fox pass".
     The original series has been out on video tape for years now, hasn't 
it?  Perhaps you could present her with a copy of the episode she 
purportedly has watched.  I did the same thing many years ago with a cousin 
and a copy of Jane Austin's "Emma".


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 18:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  8 17:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: James Doohan
Message-ID: <a8.b3e1619.2a0b1f13@aol.com>

--part1_a8.b3e1619.2a0b1f13_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 5/7/2002 6:24:08 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


> >For those of us raised on a diet of TV SF shows such as Star 
> >Trek, and of course, the LBBs, apparently the actor who 
> >played Scotty is in a coma, and is not expected to survive.
> 

I saw him last at DragonCon in Atlanta last fall -- he did not look too good 
then, but he still did yeoman service for the fans. 

LKW

--part1_a8.b3e1619.2a0b1f13_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 5/7/2002 6:24:08 PM Central Daylight Time, tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;For those of us raised on a diet of TV SF shows such as Star <BR>
&gt;Trek, and of course, the LBBs, apparently the actor who <BR>
&gt;played Scotty is in a coma, and is not expected to survive.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I saw him last at DragonCon in Atlanta last fall -- he did not look too good then, but he still did yeoman service for the fans. <BR>
<BR>
LKW</FONT></HTML>

--part1_a8.b3e1619.2a0b1f13_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 18:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  8 17:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Gurkhas
Message-ID: <85.1b3d480f.2a0b20de@aol.com>

>In case someone hasn't already posted it (I get the digest of the list), how 
about a >kukri? Anybody wanna duel a pissed-off Gurkha?

Not even if he was unarmed. I know ex-Navy SEALs who don't even like being on 
the same continent as a POed Gurkha.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 18:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May  8 17:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #500 - 28 msgs
Message-ID: <200205090049.FVN02393@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Zeitlin says
>FEEDBACK

Anytime this weekend is good. BTW, I use Trillian to do all 
of my chatting (www.trillian.cc). Sorry for the shameless 
plug for free software I didn't write.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 18:52:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed May  8 17:52:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: James Doohan
References: <a8.b3e1619.2a0b1f13@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CD9C7C5.B431512E@premier.net>

LKW wrote (concerning James Doohan):

I saw him last at DragonCon in Atlanta last fall -- he did not look too
good then, but he still did yeoman service for the fans.

To which I respond:

Funny; I thought it was Grace Lee Whitney who did yeoman service.... ;-)

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 19:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed May  8 18:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] ChemDet draft rules (FFS1/2)
Message-ID: <F241r0YGreuTRnlomKb00008bb7@hotmail.com>

Here is a first draft of the rules I have written for Chemical Powered 
Detonation laser missiles. I decided to try a low-power non self-destructive 
approach. I would especially appreciate comments from people using TNE or 
the standard space combat system in T4 on the damage ratings for those 
systems.


* Description

A Chemical Powered Detonation Laser (or ChemDet) becomes available at TL13 
and is an alternative to the Nuclear Detonation Laser (NukeDet) warhead. The 
ChemDet warhead uses a version of the standard Chemical Lasing Cartridge 
(CLC) to power a number of X-ray lasers. The lasers are fired at a range of 
10'000 km and are aimed using a primitive beampointer. The beampointer is 
not very accurate so the warhead is designed to spread the shots to improve 
accuracy.

Contrary to its nuclear pumped cousin the ChemDet does not explode 
spectacularly but the high temperatures and corrosive by-products of the 
chemicals used will degrade the lasing arrays to the point that there is no 
idea in reloading them. The engine, sensors and other electronics might be 
salvageable depending on the design of the missile.

The primary weakness of the ChemDet warhead is its relatively weak 
penetration. This limits the kind of targets the missile can be effectively 
used against. Likley users of ChemDet warheads include civilian ships, 
customs vessels, scout ships and small warships.


* The Rules

1. All Chemical Powered Detonation Laser warheads require the installation 
of a lightweight beampointer.

Lightweight Beampointer, Range 10'000 km.
TL    Volume    Weight   Cost
13    0.10 m3   0.10 t   0.03 MCr
14    0.06 m3   0.06 t   0.02 MCr
15    0.03 m3   0.03 t   0.01 MCr
16    0.03 m3   0.03 t   0.01 MCr


2. Select the Discharge Energy (DE) of a single lasing cartridge and 
calculate the damage (DV) and penetration using the standard sequences for 
lasers from your version of Fire Fusion and Steel.


3. Determine the characteristics of the chemical lasing cartridge and its 
focal array. This includes the effects of the laser efficiency table.

TL modifier, Weight per MJ of discharge energy
TL    TLmod
13    0.0006
14    0.0005
15    0.0004
16    0.0003

Cartridge Weight (CWt) = DE * TLmod
Cartridge Volume = CWt/10
Cartridge Cost = DE * 0.00004


4. Set the number of cartridges and calculate the performance of the 
warhead.

4a. FFS1 for TNE.

The damage and penetration of the ChemDet is equal to that of a single 
lasing cartridge. The number of cartridges will decide how many hits are 
made to the target.

#Hits   #Cartridges
  1      3
1D2      4
1D3      6
1D4      8
1D6     10


4b. FFS2 for T4.

Is there any interest for this? I'm not that hip on T4 space combat but 
calculating the number of hits like TNE might be doable. I don't know how 
good it will work with the ablative armour though.


4c. FFS2 for MCS

The penetration (PEN) of the ChemDet is 10 times the damage value (DV) of a 
single cartridge. The total damage (DAM) of the warhead is equal to damage 
of a single cartridge times the number of cartridges divided by 3.

Penetration = 10 * DV.
Damage = DV * NrOfCartridges / 3

Then translate these values using the USD table. All other performance 
characteristics are handled according to the standard MCS rules.


5. Wrapping it all up. Calculate the total weight, volume and cost of all 
the subcomponents.


* Some example warheads.

TNE
TL   Hits    Damage   Weight   Volume   Cost
13    1D3    1/5-16    0.244    0.114   0.040
13      1   1/10-32    0.388    0.129   0.049
15    1D6    1/7-22    0.342    0.061   0.041
15    1D3   1/11-35    0.488    0.076   0.056

MCS
TL   PEN:DAM   Weight   Volume    Cost
13    13:10     0.316    0.122   0.044
13    14:10     0.415    0.132   0.051
15    14:11     0.336    0.061   0.041
15    15:11     0.478    0.075   0.055


* Assumptions

The lightweight beampointer is based on the 30'000 km beampointer from FFS1 
but with 0.1x weight/volume and ~0.33x price.

The efficiency of the CLCs is somewhat better than the standard ones. At 
TL13 it has ~2.5Mj/Kg and at TL16 ~3.5Mj/kg.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 19:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed May  8 18:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Justice, etc.
In-Reply-To: <185.814220a.2a0b1a07@aol.com>
References: <185.814220a.2a0b1a07@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3it5yp1gv.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:
> 
> I'm not a lawyer, but isn't murder on federal property (like a
> government building or a federal park) a federal crime? Likewise,
> killing a federal agent?

I believe so.  I was talking about ordinary murder.  Just as the US
Gov't doesn't care if my neighbour kills me, but does care if he kills
an FBI agent, so too would the Imperium not care if some Reginan kills
another, but will if he kills a Scout.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Crist aras!  Crist solice aras!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 19:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed May  8 18:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Alien Melee Weapons
In-Reply-To: <000101c1f6dd$d17a67f0$0f01a8c0@terry>
References: <B8FDE340.5A3A0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020508212546.00cb7088@192.168.0.1>

At 05:15 PM 5/8/2002 -0500, somebody wrote:
[snip]
> > Or how about sword-like weapons shaped like a fish hook?  Used with a
> > breast plate and the traditional knee-knives.

Chinese hook swords.
<http://www.takwah.com/weapons/DoubleHookSword.htm>


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 19:59:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed May  8 18:59:15 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
In-Reply-To: <3CD98821.6020906@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <F58sPkskqedC8mOLSSP0000e3ae@hotmail.com>
 <3CD8152B.6020300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <m3pu07wxl2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020507220105.009ff280@mindspring.com>
 <3CD95805.4030802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <3CD9627A.3050308@attbi.com>
 <3CD97DCF.6010606@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <m3adrazalm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508183946.009f8a30@mindspring.com>

At 01:18 PM 5/8/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Hmmm...six eternal flames, six coynes, six l;egs on a Hiver...it IS a plot!

Which means the release of d20 Traveller, the sixth full edition of the 
Game, will herald the end of the cycle.  Marc's design, cleverly misnamed 
"T5", will begin the dawn of a new era in gaming, when the role player 
shall lie down with the gearhead, and the canon shall be clear and without 
contradiction.

GDW shall rise from the ashes, and from their ziggurat in Normal, Illinois 
they shall spread enlightenment and black/red dice throughout the land. 
Goths will get lives. Deodorant will be used at GenCon. CCG players will be 
judged by the weight of their card collections, and mister suitcase will 
hit Hell so hard they'll have a new pit to torture rules lawyers in...

.. until the Vilani show up in 2132 and conquer us, making everyone play 
Palladium, a game only the Vilani could love.

(If only the Mayan calender had six suns, instead of five, I could have 
worked that in as well.)

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 20:00:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed May  8 19:00:47 2002
Subject: [TML] John Groth, please contact me ASAP!
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508185052.009f8e30@mindspring.com>

Just what the subject says, your email is bouncing and I need a few more 
Russian translations.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 20:02:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed May  8 19:02:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Flamewar Haiku
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAELNCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508185340.009fd3c0@mindspring.com>

At 03:57 PM 5/8/02 -0700, you wrote:
>A brand new flamewar
>Not rocks, pirates, feudal tech
>Swordsmen stab gently

Levels of detail
Not needed in any game
Hitting "delete all"

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 20:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed May  8 19:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Groth, please contact me ASAP!
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508185052.009f8e30@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CD9DE5E.7FD4F5A1@premier.net>


Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> Just what the subject says, your email is bouncing and I need a few more
> Russian translations.

If wombat@premier.net isn't working (and I don't know why not, since I
received this), you can also try cololdenburg@hotmail.com.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 20:30:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed May  8 19:30:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #500 - 28 msgs
In-Reply-To: <200205090049.FVN02393@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508185804.00a02d90@mindspring.com>

At 08:49 PM 5/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Jeff Zeitlin says
> >FEEDBACK
>
>Anytime this weekend is good. BTW, I use Trillian to do all
>of my chatting (www.trillian.cc). Sorry for the shameless
>plug for free software I didn't write.

I'm on Trillian as GridloreSF.  I think my wife has me hooked up to most of 
the usual IM clients.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 20:31:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed May  8 19:31:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Justice, etc.
In-Reply-To: <185.814220a.2a0b1a07@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508190012.00a03490@mindspring.com>

At 08:17 PM 5/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I'm not a lawyer, but isn't murder on federal property (like a government
>building or a federal park) a federal crime? Likewise, killing a federal
>agent?

On federal property, or killing a federal agent in the execution of his 
duties is a federal offense.  That covers a *lot* of people.  During the 
1990 census, a census taker was shot by a man who didn't want answer 
questions.  Imagine his suprise when he found himself facing state and 
federal charges.. tow trials for killing one person!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 20:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May  8 19:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
Message-ID: <200205090232.FVR01388@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I've had several conversations about "munchkins" recently.  I 
have often wondered why many people in the RU who have made a 
big difference, or had great adventures, are often fairly 
ordinary, except perhaps for personal drive or intellect.

I was reminded of Reilly, "Ace of Spies", and came across 
this link today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/articles/A55741-2002May8.html

Yes, he had to roll a new character.  But what was it that 
made him an "ace" rather than a "munchkin"?  I would submit 
that he was not a superhero endowed with Gun Combat-9.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 20:43:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed May  8 19:43:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Unsubscribing Tomorrow Morning
Message-ID: <3CD9E1EE.3F198E8F@premier.net>

Well, sophs, I'm heading to Ft. Carson, CO, tomorrow morning to begin
the trainup for my upcoming Sinai deployment.  Until I find out how
often I'll be able to check e-mail, I'll be unsubscribing from the TML.

If some kind soul on this list would forward any keyboard kills to one
of my alternate e-mail addresses (specifically,
cololdenburg@hotmail.com), I'd appreciate it.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 20:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mitch Haggman)
Date: Wed May  8 19:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0205081933540.24463-100000@sephiroth.byte-me.org>

	Hi all,

	A weekend ago, while trolling through the used bookstore in my 
neighborhood (I've recently moved to Australia, you see, thus making this 
my first visit to the bookstore in question) when I stumble upon a great 
big stack of Traveller.  Well, $40 out of my pocket later (that would be 
about $35 to my Canadian compatriots, and $25 or so south of there) and 
I'm a proud owner of about 60 Traveller books.

	Now, I sit, staring at a great big pile of books, most of which 
are only two or three years older than me, as they're all for Traveller 
Classic as far as I can tell.

	I've always beena  sci-fi fan, and a ravenous monster of a gamer - 
I've lost count of the systems I own/play - and Traveller has always been 
a name I'd heard, but only the real veterans in my old gaming group knew 
much of it, and well, let's say that systems where you can die in 
character generation weren't a big hit anymore.  But, faced with a big 
bargain for 60 books, I bought in.  I rather like the feudal technocracy 
feel going on, although to be fair I know more from the downport website 
than I do from reading my own books.  

	I have noticed that my new collection is missing books 2 and 3, and I 
wonder if these are terribly important to have (I will probably never use 
the actual Traveller system, so if they're just combat and space-combat, 
can I get on without these just fine?  What's in 'em?  What am I missing?

	Any advice on which books I should be searching out in this stack 
as must-reads first would be appreciated, although I understand that with 
so many books you'd likely be shooting in the dark.

	Agh, look at me ramble - can anyone tell I haven't done any gaming 
since moving to Australia?

	-Mitch

-- 
"By god, I wish these calculations had been executed by steam."
	-Charles Babbage, 1821


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 20:53:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Wed May  8 19:53:34 2002
Subject: [TML] MCS Location?
In-Reply-To: <F241r0YGreuTRnlomKb00008bb7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508225148.02ac1540@mail.qrc.com>

Hi,

Where can I pick up a current copy of the MCS rules?

Thanks,


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 21:04:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Groth)
Date: Wed May  8 20:04:07 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player...
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0205081933540.24463-100000@sephiroth.byte-me.org>
Message-ID: <3CD9E6F1.B81F8EFB@premier.net>


Mitch Haggman wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
>         I have noticed that my new collection is missing books 2 and 3, and I
> wonder if these are terribly important to have (I will probably never use
> the actual Traveller system, so if they're just combat and space-combat,
> can I get on without these just fine?  What's in 'em?  What am I missing?

Book 2 (Starships) (usually referred to as LBB2, for "Little Black Book
2") has all the basic information for starships: how they work, how to
build them, how they fight and how to conduct trade.  LBB3 (Worlds and
Adventures) has information on how to create the Universal Planetary
Profile, lists of equipment, encounter information (human and animal)
and the psionics rules.

If you have LBB5 (High Guard) and LBB7 (Merchant Prince), you might be
able to get by without LBB2.  You do need to get LBB3, although you can
use LBB6 (Scouts) for system and subsector generation.

You can purchase the Big Floppy Book reprint of LBBs 0-8 from Far Future
Enterprises (Marc Miller's company).

http://www.farfuture.net/corerule.html

Anyway, welcome aboard!

<<snip>>

-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed May  8 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] MCS Location?
Message-ID: <F87Vp20N39x6HHGNZ4m00001e41@hotmail.com>

>Hi,
>
>Where can I pick up a current copy of the MCS rules?
>
>Derek Wildstar

The usual procedure involves sending an email to 
bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net

Bruce Macintosh has been really busy detecting extra solar planets and have 
not been able to work on MCS the last year or so.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 21:14:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed May  8 20:14:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
In-Reply-To: <200205090232.FVR01388@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8FF376C.5A624%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/8/02 7:32 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> I've had several conversations about "munchkins" recently.  I
> have often wondered why many people in the RU who have made a
> big difference, or had great adventures, are often fairly
> ordinary, except perhaps for personal drive or intellect.
> 
> I was reminded of Reilly, "Ace of Spies", and came across
> this link today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
> dyn/articles/A55741-2002May8.html
> 
> Yes, he had to roll a new character.  But what was it that
> made him an "ace" rather than a "munchkin"?  I would submit
> that he was not a superhero endowed with Gun Combat-9.

Boldness of action, risk taking and the willingness to face death or worse.
None of these are characteristics of the 'munchkin'.  The Munchkin wants to
be the most powerful, baddest sumbitch in the valley.  With the most
destructive weapons possible.

The Munchkin is the Player with physical Stats of FFF or close enough, Every
combat skill at level 4 or above, Psi Strength of F, Battle dress skill and
the battledress to go along with it, and carries a customized fusion pistol.

He doesn't worry about working in a group, because he has every skill. He
fears no one because he's counting on the GM's reluctance to kill a PC, so
will spout off in the face of authority.  Arrest or torture, no problem, he
shakes them off.  Make him a criminal, that's fine.  He kills all the cops.

I'm dealing with such a player right now.  Stupidly, I said I would accept
any character, priding myself on my ability to control any player, and make
them work.  IMTU, no matter who you are, there is always someone better,
smarter, faster.  This player has already been arrested, interrogated and
threatened by the secret police.  I came within a hairs breath of killing
him off, but he begged forgiveness and I am soft hearted.  I think I have
finally hit on a solution.  I'm planning on running him into a super-psionic
that can do some brain damage and I can rips some of those skills away.

My other players really want me to kill him off, or hope that at least he'll
get bored and quit.  I will not be inviting him to participate in any other
PBeM I run - Ever.  And most people tell me I am one of the most tolerant
people they know.  Hence my sensitivity about munchkins (OK, Rant).

With a group, I like it better when there are people that have area's of
specialty.  Each does there thing and each contribute to the group.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 21:16:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed May  8 20:16:35 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player...
In-Reply-To: <3CD9E6F1.B81F8EFB@premier.net>
Message-ID: <000201c1f707$bfae2fa0$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of John Groth
> Mitch Haggman wrote:
> >
> <<snip>>
> >
> >         I have noticed that my new collection is missing books
> 2 and 3, and I
> > wonder if these are terribly important to have (I will probably
> never use
> > the actual Traveller system, so if they're just combat and space-combat,
> > can I get on without these just fine?  What's in 'em?  What am
> I missing?
>
> Book 2 (Starships) (usually referred to as LBB2, for "Little Black Book
> 2") has all the basic information for starships: how they work, how to
> build them, how they fight and how to conduct trade.  LBB3 (Worlds and
> Adventures) has information on how to create the Universal Planetary
> Profile, lists of equipment, encounter information (human and animal)
> and the psionics rules.
>
> You can purchase the Big Floppy Book reprint of LBBs 0-8 from Far Future
> Enterprises (Marc Miller's company).

Or, if The Traveller Book or Starter Traveller are also in your
collection, you are set as they already include all of the
information from Books 2 and 3.

Or, if you want to be a completist, you can try eBay.  I have no idea
what shipping costs to your location are, but Books 2 and 3 pop up often
and can be had very cheap.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 21:26:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Wed May  8 20:26:13 2002
Subject: [TML] IRC Chat FEEDBACK
References: <20020509031615.EB5B727A22@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002701c1f709$6d251e40$5aa45940@dixienet.com>

OK Jeff  24-7  name time: I can be there Undernet  / Chatnet channel id
#traveller

john strain

---------
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>

On Wed, 08 May 2002 17:01:05 -0700, "John Strain" <missingjn@dixie-net.com>
wrote:

>Chats, Traveller..........okkkkk- where, when?  Translate to CST, USA
>please..

Channel #traveller, IRC network Undernet, day and time not as yet
determined; I want FEEDBACK so I can set the times for maximum
participation.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 21:36:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  8 20:36:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meat
Message-ID: <9b.2737ab14.2a0b488e@aol.com>

>>>(For those that are curious, I've conducted many interesting experiments 
on
>>>meat including hacking an old beef carcass with a bastard sword, and
>>>shooting many hunks of meat.  Quite revealing.
>>>
>>
>>The US Army wound ballistics lab has shot a few thousand pigs over the 
years 
>>. . . they gave Frank a tour of the facility after the Desert Shield 
Factbook 
>>was published (the military LOVED that book).
>>
>
>Gaahhhh...wouldn't the PETA just love that...

Somehow, I suspect PETA is not especially happy with ANYTHING the US Army 
does.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 21:39:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed May  8 20:39:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Web site Update and Die Roller program available
References: <20020509000647.E353B27A27@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CD9EE93.30E0BB81@ameritech.net>


> From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
> Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 17:38:30 -0500
>
> I placed a die roller program I have written on the web. It is
> available for download at both:

Thanks. I downloaded it. Haven't run it yet but it could come in handy.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 21:41:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Wed May  8 20:41:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Who wants to be immortalized?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508122536.009f44f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020509113107.025f5220@pop3.norton.antivirus>

At 12:28 PM 8/05/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>As a nutzo Baron into strange social Darwinism?
>
>I've run out of names for Trojan Reach, and need a volunteer.  Nobody I've 
>used before, please.
>
>Please email me.  I'll let you know if I use your name.

Baron Andrei Alexander Alesnikov Nikulinsky
<wide grin, twirls mustachios>

regards,
Andrei Nikulinsky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Wed May  8 20:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meat
In-Reply-To: <9b.2737ab14.2a0b488e@aol.com>
References: <9b.2737ab14.2a0b488e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200205082350070547.0A10443E@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/8/2002 at 11:35 PM GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>>Gaahhhh...wouldn't the PETA just love that...
>
>Somehow, I suspect PETA is not especially happy with ANYTHING the US Army 
>does.

People Eating Tasty Animals? Why would they object, unless it is for=
 wasting potential food.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 21:49:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  8 20:49:07 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
Message-ID: <167.d771a7c.2a0b4b88@aol.com>

>> Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>> 
>>>snipers who can pot a penny at three miles through forests
>> 
>> 
>> *sniff*  Amateurs.

Gosh, that sounds like something by James Fenimore Cooper.

Continuing OT: I almost busted a gut laughing the first time I read Mark 
Twain's "Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses" -- strong "must read" 
recommendation for this one. I'm sure it has to be on the internet someplace, 
but my google-fu is in my other pants . . . 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 21:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed May  8 20:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
In-Reply-To: <B8FF376C.5A624%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200205090232.FVR01388@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B8FF376C.5A624%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020509135615.A2860@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> My other players really want me to kill him off, or hope that at
> least he'll get bored and quit.

I don't mind running games with a munchkin player or two in them.
After all, *someone* has to play the recurring high-powered villains
who get killed off in their respective final scenes.  If one of the
players wants to take on that function, it's less work for me.

Usually I've been kind enough to ask them whether that is really the
role they want to play in the game, and whether perhaps they might
want to reconsider their PC's last action that would irrevocably set
them on the path to the Dark Side.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 22:22:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Wed May  8 21:22:05 2002
Subject: [TML] John Groth, please contact me ASAP!
In-Reply-To: <3CD9DE5E.7FD4F5A1@premier.net>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPGECGDJAA.max200@lanset.com>

I can also translate Russian or Ukrainian.

Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John Groth
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 7:27 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] John Groth, please contact me ASAP!




Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> Just what the subject says, your email is bouncing and I need a few more
> Russian translations.

If wombat@premier.net isn't working (and I don't know why not, since I
received this), you can also try cololdenburg@hotmail.com.


-- 
Intelligence is the world's second-oldest profession.  It differs from
the oldest profession in that it is more immoral and more commonly
practiced by amateurs.
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 22:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed May  8 21:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
In-Reply-To: <20020509135615.A2860@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B8FF4C8C.5A648%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/8/02 8:56 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
>> My other players really want me to kill him off, or hope that at
>> least he'll get bored and quit.
> 
> I don't mind running games with a munchkin player or two in them.
> After all, *someone* has to play the recurring high-powered villains
> who get killed off in their respective final scenes.  If one of the
> players wants to take on that function, it's less work for me.
> 
> Usually I've been kind enough to ask them whether that is really the
> role they want to play in the game, and whether perhaps they might
> want to reconsider their PC's last action that would irrevocably set
> them on the path to the Dark Side.

Sorry,  John's post got we when I was particularly worked up about an
unrelated subject. Typically, I really don't worry about it.  I'm just
really more interested in characters and what they do/how they react in a
given situation.  I have no interest in running supermen who crush
everything in their path and never react to anything, or grow or change.
There are superhero games for that sort of thing.

That was one of the main reasons I swore of D&D years ago (aside from not
being particularly found of fantasy).  In the D&D games I encountered (I'm
sure there are other kinds) it was always about getting treasure, gaining
experience, obtaining cool items and gaining levels. satisfying for some,
but not me.

The whole experience poisoned me against anything related to "The Other
Game" to the extent that I find it difficult to even look at T20 as a game
system.  

I'm fascinated that there are Refs who can motivate Traveller players by
wont of money, obtaining stuff and the like.  To me that seems incredibly
boring.  I prefer a game where the players get caught up in the life of
their character, where they just want to see what happens next.  Where the
characters life is punctuated with a string of memorable and soul changing
events.

Oh well.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 23:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed May  8 22:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
In-Reply-To: <B8FF376C.5A624%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B8FF5547.5A72F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/8/02 8:13 PM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> I'm dealing with such a player right now.  Stupidly, I said I would accept
> any character, priding myself on my ability to control any player, and make
> them work.  IMTU, no matter who you are, there is always someone better,
> smarter, faster.  This player has already been arrested, interrogated and
> threatened by the secret police.  I came within a hairs breath of killing
> him off, but he begged forgiveness and I am soft hearted.  I think I have
> finally hit on a solution.  I'm planning on running him into a super-psionic
> that can do some brain damage and I can rips some of those skills away.
> 
> My other players really want me to kill him off, or hope that at least he'll
> get bored and quit.  I will not be inviting him to participate in any other
> PBeM I run - Ever.  And most people tell me I am one of the most tolerant
> people they know.  Hence my sensitivity about munchkins (OK, Rant).

This was not supposed to go to the TML, but it did.  That being said, I have
made my feeling plain to the player in question.  I apologize to him for
sending this to a public forum, and will not name him here.

Sorry to the list as well for ungentlemanly behavior.

Tod

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 23:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May  8 22:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] OT request for help - need story identified
Message-ID: <189.79f2fe7.2a0b6781@aol.com>

John Snead writes:

>knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>
>> Okay, I'm going to try to call on the collective knowledge of the TML
>> to help out a friend of mine.  She's trying to identify a story that
>> was either edited or written by Asimov.  Her description of the story
>> follows.  Can anyone help us ID this story?
>> 
>> ******************************************************************
>> 
>> Once upon a time (in the early 80's) I read an anthology of sf short
>> stories which were either written or edited (forget which) by Asimov.
>> My hometown library had the book... and I've never seen it again. 
>
><snip description>
> 
>I've never read this, but if anyone knows what it is, tell me too.  It
>
>sounds like something I'd really enjoy reading.
>

Damn, I've read this story. My own memory, which is usually VERY good for SF, 
is drawing only a "best three out of thousands" on this one. It sounds 
distinctly like something I read either in the first "Women of Wonder" 
anthology, the pages of Aborinigal SF, or the pages of Analog...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May  8 23:58:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Wed May  8 22:58:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Why Vacc Suit?
Message-ID: <20020509055744.73837.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>

As in why Vacc as the abbreviation when the word is
vacuum (double u not double c)? Sorry if this has been
raised elsewhere and dealt with. I've been lurking off
and on for a while and searched for any threads
dealing with this to no avail.

This has been bugging me (a little) for a number of
years (~20, kinda like the Chinese water torture) ever
since shortly after we started playing and one of our
group (it also bugs me that it wasn't me) asked this
question. Tonight it finally got to me and I decided,
at the risk of starting a pointless tis/tisn't debate,
to just come out and ask.

As an aside does anybody else care to say when this
was noticed by their own group or self?

Its really no big deal, I've just been using (canon
sin?) Vac Suit myself (pronounced the same) ever
since. I kinda think the pronunciation might have been
the reason it was spelled Vacc but that's only a theory.

______________________________________________________________________ 
Games, Movies, Music & Sports! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 00:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed May  8 23:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why Vacc Suit?
In-Reply-To: <20020509055744.73837.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020509055744.73837.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020509162335.B2860@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:
> As in why Vacc as the abbreviation when the word is
> vacuum (double u not double c)?

Double-u ... hmm ... "vacwm"?

That bugged me too just a couple of days ago, when my wife asked me
how to spell the word.  My pet theory is that it might have been a
typo a long time ago, one that stuck.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 00:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed May  8 23:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <F58sPkskqedC8mOLSSP0000e3ae@hotmail.com>	<3CD8152B.6020300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>	<m3pu07wxl2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>	<5.1.0.14.2.20020507220105.009ff280@mindspring.com>	<3CD95805.4030802@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <3CD9627A.3050308@attbi.com>	<3CD97DCF.6010606@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <m3adrazalm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <3CD98821.6020906@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CDA16CF.1050608@attbi.com>


Bruce Johnson wrote:

> female Aslan 

That was a Flame war?.... I thought that was just normal Kenji wierdness.


-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss,
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 00:40:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Wed May  8 23:40:08 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player...
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0205081933540.24463-100000@sephiroth.byte-me.org>
Message-ID: <3CDA192D.10202@yarranet.net.au>

Mitch Haggman wrote:

> 	A weekend ago, while trolling through the used bookstore in my 
> neighborhood (I've recently moved to Australia, you see, thus making this 
> my first visit to the bookstore in question) when I stumble upon a great 
> big stack of Traveller.  Well, $40 out of my pocket later (that would be 
> about $35 to my Canadian compatriots, and $25 or so south of there) and 
> I'm a proud owner of about 60 Traveller books.


Where in Australia did you find this huge cache?
(For my own sanity I hope that it hasn't been sitting under my nose all 
this time.)

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 01:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Thu May  9 00:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player...
In-Reply-To: <3CDA192D.10202@yarranet.net.au>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0205081933540.24463-100000@sephiroth.byte-me.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020509154631.02628590@pop3.norton.antivirus>

>Where in Australia did you find this huge cache?
>(For my own sanity I hope that it hasn't been sitting under my nose all 
>this time.)

Nor mine! Though <boast> I obtained LBB books 1-5 for $7.70 AUD about a 
month ago from our local 'Elizabeths book exchange" (Perth) </boast>

Regards,
Andrei Nikulinsky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 01:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu May  9 00:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why Vacc Suit?
References: <20020509055744.73837.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com> <20020509162335.B2860@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <002601c1f72f$5228e560$679193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> Daniel Burns wrote:
> > As in why Vacc as the abbreviation when the word is
> > vacuum (double u not double c)?
>
> Double-u ... hmm ... "vacwm"?
>
> That bugged me too just a couple of days ago, when my wife asked me
> how to spell the word.  My pet theory is that it might have been a
> typo a long time ago, one that stuck.
>

I still keep trying to use it. Seems to get edited to Vac these days. I
prefer vacc - call it nostalgia for CT or something.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 03:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Thu May  9 02:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205081350120.24485-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1f996$6dc915b0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Kiri Aradia Morgan
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 13:55
To: lois-bujold@lists.herald.co.uk
Cc: simegen-l@simegen.com; tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)


Now, you might be able to get that out of "This Side of Paradise" I
guess, assuming you were stoned when you watched it-- but she says she
saw
her name in the credits.

I don't know what to say.  I guess nothing is probably best.  I mean,
there is really no polite way to tell her it's wrong, especially when
she's telling everyone that she's seen the episode.

Kiri  ^_^


Well..there was the episode where Spock 'mated' with Marilu Henner..But
that was back in an ice age and I don't remember her name being Debrine.

There was another episode where they were on the Asteroid ship "Unata"
built by a race known as the "Debrinni", however it was Dr. Mcoy who was
married, not Spock.

I suppose my point is, even if you try to make oblique references her
theory still doesn't hold up.  :)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 03:49:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Thu May  9 02:49:08 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS OT: Italian Landmine affectionados
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17AD6@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

From Oz's premier broadsheet

Italian tourists wanted to take landmines home as souvenirs
 
Five Italian tourists were fined while leaving Croatia when customs
officials discovered they wanted to take landmines as souvenirs, a local
daily newspaper reported today.
The tourists said they found anti-personnel landmines while climbing on the
Velebit mountain range, the biggest in Croatia, and that they simply wanted
to have some exotic souvenirs from their holidays.
The "souvenirs" were taken from them, but it was unclear how much they had
been fined. 
Hundreds of thousands of unexploded mines left behind after the Balkan war
in the 1990s are still lying around in Croatia. It is estimated that about
$US1 billion ($A1.86 billion) will be needed to remove them.

http://www.smh.com.au/breaking/2002/05/08/FFX6NQD3Y0D.html
<http://www.smh.com.au/breaking/2002/05/08/FFX6NQD3Y0D.html> 

I told a mate of mine from uni. His comment? 

Poor old Italians - they're used to dropping weapons, not picking them up.

ROFLAMO

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 04:20:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu May  9 03:20:13 2002
Subject: [TML] What makes a good Traveller adventure?
References: <20020507185918.42541.qmail@web11201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002401c1f743$4accf4a0$6e00a8c0@imogen>

Jason Kemp wrote:
> Okay, Here's a question for ya:
<snip>

You could be running into any one of a number  of  problems.  One
aspect I've  found  differs  between  fantasy  and  SF  games  is
motivation:

- In fantasy games the primary motivation for  player  characters
  is typically greed ... either the aquisition  of  treasure,  of
  killing bad things for XPs.

- In a typical fantasy game there is  an  alignment  system  that
  clearly defines (for humanoids) the good guys from the bad, and
  non-humanoids are almost always bad.  Anyone or anyhing bad can
  (and should) be killed  without  moral  consequences  ...  just
  tactical considerations.

- Many fantasy games are class-based.  There are clear  strengths
  and weaknesses in each character  class  that  naturally  lends
  itself to forming cooperative  groups.  In  task-based  systems
  there can be more overlap between characters' specialty.

Just tell the party (composed of complementary classes) there  is
a pile of treasure guarded by lots of easy-to-kill creatures (oh,
and by the way those creatures  are  evil)  and  watch  them  go!
Optionally, dress it up as something noble (the easy-to-kill evil
creatures are threatening a nearby town  of  defenseless  peasant
farmers) and you  have  a  blueprint  for  your  typical  fantasy
adventure.

I have found that many players from  a  fantasy  game  background
have  difficulty  adjusting   to   games   where   these   simple
motivational tools are removed.  If this is so  the  players  may
lack cohesion (more likely to back-stab  each  other  to  varying
degrees) and be difficult to direct down the path laid out in the
adventure you've created.

One solution  I've  used  with  great  success  is  to  keep  the
characters in service ... at the end of character generation tell
the players they haven't mustered  out  yet.  For  example:  Make
the characters the crew of an Imperial Navy Gazelle class  CE  in
the Spinward Marches just before (or during) the  5FW.  They  are
given missions by superior officers.  There are  clear  bad  guys
(the Zhodani, the Sword Worlders, and the Ine Givar).  And if you
steer  character  generation  towards   filling   specific   crew
positions (pilot, gunner, engineer,  sensor  operator,  etc)  you
have pseudo-class cooperation.  An additional advantage  is  that
if the party gets a  piece  of  equipment  or  an  artifact  that
unbalances the campaign you can  just  have  a  superior  officer
reallocate it away.  In addition to  official  missions  (message
courier, search  and  rescue,  anti-piracy,  surveilance,  convoy
escort, etc) they can still have regular patron  adventures  when
their ship is laid-over.  And with a Sergeant Bilco-like  NPC  in
charge of fleet quartermaster stores just getting the spare parts
for routine maintenance can be an adventure in itself too.



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 04:22:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu May  9 03:22:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Customs Inspections
References: <000041bd02457c07d2@[192.168.0.66]>
Message-ID: <002501c1f743$4b4272c0$6e00a8c0@imogen>

Jerry Hill wrote:
> I've started running my first traveller game (using GT), and
> am a bit confused about how to run customs inspections.  I've
> read through the GT: Far Trader and GT: Starports sections about
> customs, but I'm still left with some questions.  
<snip>

IMTU cargos and people are suject to possible customs checks when
they  cross  the  XT  line.  Shipboard  inspections   are   rare.
Anything left onboard ship, or transferred  to  another  ship  in
port, or even placed in a transhippment  warehouse  is  generally
okay.

The problem arises in some of the smaller  starports  that  don't
have an XT line.  Shipboard inspections are more likely here  and
if the players have inadvertantly broken any local laws they  are
at the mercy of  the  local  authority's  whims.  However,  these
small  starports  are  unlikely  to  have  highports.  Also,  all
Imperial  member  worlds  should  have  some  sort  of  exemption
process (but it might involve a lot of red tape).

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 07:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu May  9 06:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player...
References: <20020509031615.EB5B727A22@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001901c1f75a$4738b2e0$175d8690@computer>

> From: Mitch Haggman
> I have noticed that my new collection is missing books 2 and 3, and I
> wonder if these are terribly important to have (I will probably never use
> the actual Traveller system, so if they're just combat and space-combat,
> can I get on without these just fine?  What's in 'em?  What am I missing?

They're pretty important.  Hmm.  It would be a good idea to get the
reprints.

> Agh, look at me ramble - can anyone tell I haven't done any gaming
> since moving to Australia?

Where in Australia?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 07:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu May  9 06:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why Vacc Suit?
In-Reply-To: <20020509162335.B2860@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEIJDNAA.tml@downport.com>

I tell people the same thing my first Ref told me: "It's a brand name, like
Kleenex, that became generic." So, ever since then there has been an
automatic Kleenex dispenser in all Vacc suits IMTU. Feel free to xerox my
idea for YTU :p


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Timothy Little
>
> Daniel Burns wrote:
> > As in why Vacc as the abbreviation when the word is
> > vacuum (double u not double c)?
>
> That bugged me too just a couple of days ago, when my wife asked me
> how to spell the word.  My pet theory is that it might have been a
> typo a long time ago, one that stuck.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 08:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu May  9 07:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Groth, please contact me ASAP!
In-Reply-To: <3CD9DE5E.7FD4F5A1@premier.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508185052.009f8e30@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020509072127.009ee190@mindspring.com>

At 09:26 PM 5/8/02 -0500, you wrote:


>Douglas Berry wrote:
> >
> > Just what the subject says, your email is bouncing and I need a few more
> > Russian translations.
>
>If wombat@premier.net isn't working (and I don't know why not, since I
>received this), you can also try cololdenburg@hotmail.com.

Bouncing for some reason.  I've just sent it to the Hotmail address

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 08:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Macintosh)
Date: Thu May  9 07:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] MCS Location?
References: <20020509031619.8DBAD27A20@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000701c1f766$cecab300$2d41510c@0tk0e>

> >Hi,
> >
> >Where can I pick up a current copy of the MCS rules?
> >
> >Derek Wildstar
>
> The usual procedure involves sending an email to
> bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net
>
> Bruce Macintosh has been really busy detecting extra solar planets and have
> not been able to work on MCS the last year or so.

The word "attempting" is missing from this sentence, unfortunately.

But I'm happy to send MCS copies to people with the usual disclaimers.

Bruce



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 08:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu May  9 07:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Wargaming
Message-ID: <20020509145200.72134.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

A question for all you wargaming guru's out there. 
What is the best way to get involved in wargaming?  I
am thinking it might be a fun thing to do, but I would
like to find out before I spend too much money.  So
where do I start?

Thanks,
Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 08:55:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu May  9 07:55:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meat
In-Reply-To: <9b.2737ab14.2a0b488e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020509073011.00a01810@mindspring.com>

At 11:35 PM 5/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Somehow, I suspect PETA is not especially happy with ANYTHING the US Army
>does.

They aren't.

Of course, us cancer patients are overly thrilled with PETA trying to shut 
down the research that keeps us alive.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 08:56:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu May  9 07:56:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Unsubscribing Tomorrow Morning
In-Reply-To: <3CD9E1EE.3F198E8F@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020509073220.00a03b40@mindspring.com>

At 09:41 PM 5/8/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Well, sophs, I'm heading to Ft. Carson, CO, tomorrow morning to begin
>the trainup for my upcoming Sinai deployment.  Until I find out how
>often I'll be able to check e-mail, I'll be unsubscribing from the TML.

John, try to have fun in the desert.  Keep that 16 close by, you hear me?

Pity we're not having another Traveller party this year, we could have sent 
you another book!


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 08:59:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Thu May  9 07:59:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Why Vacc Suit?
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEIJDNAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1f768$bcb73fb0$2f7de40c@loki>

Vacc vs. Vac

I bet they didn't want it to look anything like Shop Vac.

Another good defense is language drift. The word's origins are lost in
the depth of time and Vacc may not be related to Vacuum for the
inhabitants of the TU.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 09:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Thu May  9 08:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Wargaming
In-Reply-To: <20020509145200.72134.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020509145200.72134.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02050916585505.24048@avlendris>

On Thursday 09 May 2002 15:52, you wrote:
> A question for all you wargaming guru's out there.
> What is the best way to get involved in wargaming?  I
> am thinking it might be a fun thing to do, but I would
> like to find out before I spend too much money.  So
> where do I start?

Do you live near a university with a gaming club? 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 10:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Thu May  9 09:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] searching for old magazine articles
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E011406BC@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

--=_IS_MIME_Boundary
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

I'm searching for adventure scenarios set in the Spinward Marches that appeared in numerous old magazines.

I've got my hands on:

Canard, by Roberto Camino, from Dragon #59
Amber to Red, by Neil Cheyne, from White Dwarf #26
Weed War: Vinorian, by S McIntyre, from White Dwarf #29

I'm looking for:
Race for the Specter, Different Worlds #20
and any other "Spinward Marches" based magazine adventures.

Thanks for the help in advance, and my apologies for the annoying disclaimer attached to this message.


DonM.
--=_IS_MIME_Boundary
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The information contained in this message is proprietary of Amdocs,
protected from disclosure, and may be privileged.
The information is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s)
of the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, use, distribution or copying of 
this communication is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. 
If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately
by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 10:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  9 09:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
Message-ID: <20020509151417.3B8E83FACE@nm0.voyager.net>

> on 5/8/02 7:32 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>
> > I was reminded of Reilly, "Ace of Spies", and came across
> > this link today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
> > dyn/articles/A55741-2002May8.html

Thanks for the link, John, it was a good article, reminding me
of yet another person to read about. :)

> Boldness of action, risk taking and the willingness to face
> death or worse.
> None of these are characteristics of the 'munchkin'.
> The Munchkin wants to
> be the most powerful, baddest sumbitch in the valley.  With the most
> destructive weapons possible.
>
> The Munchkin is the Player with physical Stats of FFF or close
> enough, Every combat skill at level 4 or above, Psi Strength of F,
> Battle dress skill and the battledress to go along with it, and
> carries a customized fusion pistol.

What of players who's PCs have stats CDF or some similar, high,
combination and are disappointed if there isn't one E/F?
With one or two skills 4+ and a couple of moderate 2-3's
and a couple throwaway 1s.  Maybe not Psi strength F, but they almost
all try for it.  They typically look for the best weapons and armor
their characters can find, and feel unprotected (though not
underdressed) if they only get combat armor or reflect - i.e. they
feel vulnerable and do what they can (within the spirit of the game
mostly) to maximize their survival potential?

My group typically hates to lose a character and goes to great lengths
to plan, plot, equip, etc. for a mission, going in looking like a
ragtag bunch of tanks (OK, not that bad) when violence is likely and
suspiciously paranoid when it's not.  I.e., their characters do things
that might be considered odd by the 'real people' of that milieu.
When playing Top Secret years ago, it wasn't that unusual for to walk
around wearing kevlar just investigating things, before any guns were
drawn.
Does that make them (and yes, us) munchkins?  Or as I hope, just
typical if a bit paranoid adventurers?

Going by the rec.games.frp (IIRC) triad, we're probably more "gamists"
than "simulationists" or "storytellers", though we definitely had
attributes of all three.  I'd could argue that our PCs took
extraordinary precautions in potentially dangerous situation *because*
we cared about our PCs and their lives and adventures so much, but I
must say when the subject of munchkins comes up and the various
definitions fly, I have to wonder.

Rob D.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 10:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu May  9 09:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
Message-ID: <200205091642.FWT00412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>My group typically hates to lose a character and goes to 
>great lengths to plan, plot, equip, etc. for a mission, 
>going in looking like a ragtag bunch of tanks (OK, not that 
>bad) when violence is likely and suspiciously paranoid when 
>it's not.  I.e., their characters do things that might be 
>considered odd by the 'real people' of that milieu.

I'm personally not bothered that much.  I never knew there 
was a term for it before coming to the TML.  Usually, I try 
and set things up so that if some of the characters are 
itching to try out that fusion gun, they'll get what they 
want -- but the opposition may well have something equally 
lethal.  I tend to think that "fair" fights, or times when 
you're on the receiving end of an ambush, are places where 
players will get killed, regardless of their weaponry or 
armor.  Players who meticulously plan for an unorthodox and 
unexpected means of attack (I don't roll for surprise so much 
as expect you to tell me how you're going to accomplish it) 
will have a better success/survival rate, even if they are 
only attacking with some pistols and a few bottles of 
gasoline.

The other area that some may overlook is contingency plans.  
I don't need to know about them until you exercise them, but 
you had better have one.

Also, there's not going to be a way to complete an adventure 
on your own -- regardless of how many skills you have.  You 
can't be everywhere, and you can't think of everything.

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 10:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May  9 09:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
In-Reply-To: <20020509151417.3B8E83FACE@nm0.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <B8FFF6BF.5A830%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/9/02 8:14 AM, rgd@infinet.com at rgd@infinet.com wrote:

> 
> What of players who's PCs have stats CDF or some similar, high,
> combination and are disappointed if there isn't one E/F?
> With one or two skills 4+ and a couple of moderate 2-3's
> and a couple throwaway 1s.  Maybe not Psi strength F, but they almost
> all try for it.  They typically look for the best weapons and armor
> their characters can find, and feel unprotected (though not
> underdressed) if they only get combat armor or reflect - i.e. they
> feel vulnerable and do what they can (within the spirit of the game
> mostly) to maximize their survival potential?
> 
> My group typically hates to lose a character and goes to great lengths
> to plan, plot, equip, etc. for a mission, going in looking like a
> ragtag bunch of tanks (OK, not that bad) when violence is likely and
> suspiciously paranoid when it's not.  I.e., their characters do things
> that might be considered odd by the 'real people' of that milieu.
> When playing Top Secret years ago, it wasn't that unusual for to walk
> around wearing kevlar just investigating things, before any guns were
> drawn.
> Does that make them (and yes, us) munchkins?  Or as I hope, just
> typical if a bit paranoid adventurers?

I think that really it comes down to attitude.  A serious role player will
eventually tire of the super-being.  Sure, it's fun to run the
hyper-competant, well equipped character a time or two.  But for the
Munchkin, the whole reason d'etre is to become powerful and acquire super
gear.  Such characters are never effected by what they do.  They never worry
about consequences, or the fact that they are becoming sociopaths.  They
don't pine for lost loved ones, or suffer from depression over past
mistakes.  They don't dive on the grenade to save the other members of the
party because they are willing to sacrifice themselves to save their
friends. Munchkins don't have friends.

A smart player or character does take precautions.  That's perfectly normal.
Characters with experience should try to stack the odds in their favor.  But
the players sometimes have to go forward knowing that there is great risk,
and that one or more of them may not come back.

One of the telling signs to me is whether the character ever does anything
that may not be in his own best interest, but is 'in character'.  A Munchkin
will rarely want to proceed unless he is absolutely certain he will prevail,
and will get some big reward or other goodie.  Or just be able to slaughter
lots of the enemy.

Just my take.  I don't have a problem with players who game like this.  It's
just not what I'm interested in.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 10:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  9 09:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: James Doohan
Message-ID: <1a4.1fd256a.2a0c031e@aol.com>

In a message dated 09/05/02 01:53:19 GMT Daylight Time, wombat@premier.net 
writes:

<Quote>
LKW wrote (concerning James Doohan):

I saw him last at DragonCon in Atlanta last fall -- he did not look too
good then, but he still did yeoman service for the fans.

To which I respond:

Funny; I thought it was Grace Lee Whitney who did yeoman service.... ;-)

</Quote>

And I thought it was Kirk who did Yeoman Service, and Yeoman Rand and 
Yeoman...

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 10:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  9 09:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hasty words
Message-ID: <74.1c9724ff.2a0c033a@aol.com>

In a message dated 08/05/02 19:42:09 GMT Daylight Time, wildstar@qrc.com 
writes:

<Quote>
>I think we would all agree that any Imperium wide legal code must be 
>applicable anywhere and to any individual or company.

Correct, however I would also like to stress that my concept of Imperial 
law is that it serves as a minimum standard.  Imperial law as actually 
implemented is subject to the interpretation of the Imperial Nobility and 
the world governments that wind up administering this law to the bulk of 
Imperial citizens.  Thus, most worlds with some sort of government and law 
actually have made decisions on the details of the definition (or have much 
broader and tightly-defined statues that satisfactorily cover the same 
cases as Imperial law).

</Quote>

Partly I don't disagree with you - Imperial Law IMTU has little function on 
member worlds. However if you accept that Imperial Law acts as a minimum 
standard for local law then you actually support my contention rather than 
detract from it. A minimum standard requires a definition, the Imperium must 
stand up and say what that minimum standard is and worlds must know how it is 
applied.

<Quote>


>I would contend, in a society such as the Imperium universal definitions 
>of pretty much anything is impossible.

It seems to me that you have the concept of Imperial law as some sort of 
immutable, universal definition.  I would suggest that this is not the case 
- it's more of a minimum standard or yardstick, with a lot of leeway for 
local interpretation and variation.  In the suggested murder law, the two 
major points of wiggle room are in the definition of "sapient" and 
"unsanctioned".

</Quote>

I don't see Imperial Law as either immutable but I would argue it does have 
to be universal. Laws change, whether that change is driven through precedent 
or statute is irrelevant but the Imperium must have universal laws or it 
ceases to be a governing power. This is well illustrated by the concept of 
contract. Worlds make contracts with one another and at time those involved 
may have very different concepts of what constitutes a contract (and perhaps 
of the consequences if one is broken). In those cases they may turn to 
Imperial Law to establish the rules for the contract. That Imperial Law has 
to be universal or the idea of the Imperium as a trade empire collapses.

My argument is that the Imperium cannot even take the first step toward a 
workable law of contract because it will be unable to define who or what may 
engage in contract making. We could use "sapient" again but as I said above 
it's no use claiming "sapient" allows wiggle room because it's a meaningless 
term in this situation. The Imperium, in order to set a wiggle zone has to 
set a minimum and it can't. Simple as that.

<Quote>

Planetary governments and the Imperial government (in the form of local 
Nobility at the world, subsector, and sector levels) will almost certainly 
negotiate on these points.  The goal of the Imperium is to see that all of 
the member worlds meet or exceed the protection of the minimum.  Individual 
cultures and governments will vary considerably.

Thus, worlds with overly-narrow murder statutes (for example, a world where 
only the killing of a True Believer is murder) will be coerced into 
expanding their definition to meet the Imperial standard.  Worlds with 
broad murder statutes (for example, a planet of vegetarians that define the 
killing of any animal life to be murder) are just fine - since they can 
demonstrate that they easily meet the Imperial standard.

</Quote>

Yes but how does the Imperium set the standard? This is my whole point: it 
can't use the word sapient because it can't meaningful define it. What if the 
traditions of the World A hold that only True Believers are sapient and all 
others are mere fleshy automata who can only be infused by sapience if they 
are born into the One True Way? The Imperium either has to accept it and let 
them carry on or it has to present them with a definition of sapience that 
they can't claim this for.

I don't think the imperium could come up with a definition of sapience that 
does that.

<Quote>

Similar issues can be had with the "unsanctioned" term.  This is probably 
even more at the discretion of the local Imperial Nobility and the 
governments of an individual world.  Since sanction can be granted by a 
number of different authorities on all sorts of grounds, this is probably 
the biggest point for negotiation and interpretation.  Some worlds may feel 
(for example), that the simple act of trespassing is sufficient to sanction 
the use of lethal force against the trespassers.  Other worlds may 
categorically deny the use of lethal force to ordinary citizens regardless 
of the reason.

</Quote>

I have no trouble with the word "unsanctioned" and agree with you.

<Quote>

>We cannot use "sapience" as a definition of those protected by law for a
>number of reasons. Sapience does not apply to all members of a species at 
all
>times. It is conceivable that an individual may be born decerebrate and thus
>never achieve sapience.

Correct.  I don't see where this is a problem.

Since Imperial law is a minimum standard, worlds are free to re-write the 
law to cover their specific cases.  Thus, the termination of a non-sapient 
member of a sapient species is not an Imperial crime - it may or may not be 
a crime on various Imperial worlds, depending on how that local culture 
feels about it.  To use your Hiver example, since Hiver larvae are not 
sapient, Hiver societies break no Imperial laws.  A Human world may have 
laws that extend to definition of murder to non-sapient members of a 
normally-sapient species, and the Imperium would be OK with this.

</Quote>

I don't think you've thought this through :)

For example one of the definitions of sapient in my OED is "wise, or 
attempting to appear wise" (the other is "of or relating to the human 
species" and is clearly not relevant here). Now I could use that to argue 
that people who are asleep are not sapient, and to a world populated by 
beings who do not sleep my argument may be plausible. Now would the Imperium 
really allow a a world to have a law that said people killed in their sleep 
were not murdered? Another example is children - when do they become sapient 
and would the Imperium allow some worlds to consider the killing of children 
a lesser crime than murder?

I think not, which means the Imperium's minimum definition must define 
sapience in a pan-species way and in such a manner that it can be applied 
universally.

<Quote>

I agree that there would be some issue of determining sapience or not.  In 
most cases, I think that the IISS would be called upon to determine if a 
given species was sapient or not, and members of that species would be 
assumed to be sapient unless proven otherwise.  In cases like the Hivers, 
the IISS notes on the species would define when sapience was achieved and 
the individual receives protection under the law.

</Quote>

And what criteria does the IISS use to determine sapience? How does it decide 
a species is worthy of the tag "probably sapient?"

A quick look into Earths history shows the trouble you get into if you start 
allowing segments of a species to decide on sapience or not. Imagine asking a 
Nineteenth Century Male European to give you a list of sapient species - 
chances are you'd only get White Males, White Females might scrape in 
although it's not likely but everyone else is well out of luck.

<Quote>  

It's also important to realize that enforcement of the laws will vary from 
region to region and time to time, both for cultural reasons, and because 
the Imperial laws must be interpreted and administered by people - the 
Imperial Nobility.

</Quote>

Sure, but what do the Imperial Nobility look to for guidance, and how do they 
get round the sticky problem of first contact?

<Quote>

>I mentioned in an earlier post on a related matter that IMTU all Imperial 
Law
>is based on precedent (that is it is common law rather than statute law) and
>I hope that I have illustrated some of the reasons why I hold that position.

I don't think I'm disagreeing with you, actually.

Thus, while the Imperial law may read "unsanctioned termination of a 
sapient life form", the exact definitions of the terms probably come from 
tradition, precedent and negotiation: common law as you have 
described.  Some technical details (particularly things like "sapient" and 
"life form") will likely rest on IISS evaluations.

</Quote>

I don't think the the IISS can come up with a technical definition of these 
things. Precedent of course will be a big thing (IMTU pretty much the only 
thing) but that will produce a very different legal system than I suspect 
most people envisage.

<Quote>

There are several plot hooks here for players.  The most obvious is in a 
Scout based campaign, where the players are asked to investigate some of 
these terms.  In addition, the wide variety of possible interpretations 
allows for wide variation between different worlds.  The aforementioned 
religious world may be forced to keep the Imperial definition of murder on 
the books - but this doesn't mean the local enforcers will be enthusiastic 
about investigating:
   "Someone killed an offworld nonbeliever last night?  And why do I 
care?  We're busy enough here as it is!  Oh, it was Baron VanTerrance's 
son?  I guess that means we have to investigate, huh?  Well, put the 
departmental screw-ups on the case."  (The PCs must then "observe and 
assist" in the investigation as the Baron's representatives ...).


   --- Derek Wildstar

</Quote>

Charles

Its amazing how most people can be vastly improved by sudden death

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 10:53:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu May  9 09:53:14 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <F58sPkskqedC8mOLSSP0000e3ae@hotmail.com> <3CD8152B.6020300@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <m3pu07wxl2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20020507220105.009ff280@mindspring.com> <3CD95805.4030802@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <3CD9627A.3050308@attbi.com> <3CD97DCF.6010606@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <m3adrazalm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20020508183946.009f8a30@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CDAA94A.8030400@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> .. until the Vilani show up in 2132 and conquer us, making everyone play 
> Palladium, a game only the Vilani could love.
> 
> (If only the Mayan calender had six suns, instead of five, I could have 
> worked that in as well.)

Aren't Mayan calendars round, thus providing the sixth sun...



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 10:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu May  9 09:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <167.d771a7c.2a0b4b88@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CDAAA03.7080901@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>>>Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>snipers who can pot a penny at three miles through forests
>>>
>>>
>>>*sniff*  Amateurs.
>>
> 
> Gosh, that sounds like something by James Fenimore Cooper.
> 
> Continuing OT: I almost busted a gut laughing the first time I read Mark 
> Twain's "Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses" -- strong "must read" 
> recommendation for this one. I'm sure it has to be on the internet someplace, 
> but my google-fu is in my other pants . . . 

http://users.telerama.com/~joseph/cooper/cooper.html

Google knows all Google is my friend


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 10:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Thu May  9 09:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why Vacc Suit?
In-Reply-To: <000501c1f768$bcb73fb0$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <000501c1f768$bcb73fb0$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <02050917105206.24048@avlendris>

On Thursday 09 May 2002 15:49, you wrote:
> Vacc vs. Vac

> Another good defense is language drift. The word's origins are lost in
> the depth of time and Vacc may not be related to Vacuum for the
> inhabitants of the TU.

After typing "vacc" in google I got page after page of VACC acromyns, which 
leads me to beleive that VACC is infact an acromyn.

Vacuum Able Comfy Clothing?
Vacuum Anti croaking clothes?
Very Airtight Closed Costume?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 11:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu May  9 10:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <167.d771a7c.2a0b4b88@aol.com>
Message-ID: <04aa01c1f76d$ec26db70$1f9e15ac@warrior>

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/railton/projects/rissetto/offense.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com

----- Original Message -----
From: <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants


> >> Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> >>
> >>>snipers who can pot a penny at three miles through forests
> >>
> >>
> >> *sniff*  Amateurs.
>
> Gosh, that sounds like something by James Fenimore Cooper.
>
> Continuing OT: I almost busted a gut laughing the first time I read Mark
> Twain's "Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses" -- strong "must read"
> recommendation for this one. I'm sure it has to be on the internet
someplace,
> but my google-fu is in my other pants . . .
>
> LKW
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 11:13:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu May  9 10:13:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meat
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020509073011.00a01810@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020509073011.00a01810@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3wuudnyp5.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> Of course, us cancer patients are overly thrilled with PETA trying
> to shut down the research that keeps us alive.

Well, if their arguments were valid & true, then it _wouldn't_ be
appropriate to conduct such research.  But they're most definitely
not, and it most definitely is.

Personaly, I think PETA members should be shipped to the Rockies to
explain to hungry grizzlies the virtues of veganism...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Hristus A Inviat!  Adeverat a Inviat!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 11:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu May  9 10:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Wargaming
In-Reply-To: <02050916585505.24048@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020509152954.34066.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> wrote:
> 
> Do you live near a university with a gaming club? 

I'd have to check.  Furman and Clemson are both close
enough.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 11:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu May  9 10:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEILDNAA.tml@downport.com>

In the past 12 hours or so, I have had two discussions with a total of six
people about this venerable list. I'm going to share parts of them with you.
Though it is possible that those who might benefit the most from this won't
read it, I am going to post and let the chips fall where they may. Some of
the conversation was an indictment of my little crimes as well.

Firstly, consensus among newer members with whom I have spoken recently id
that their are mainly two types of post filling up 90% of the TML bandwidth:
off-topic posts by people who seldom post on-topic, and ego battle posts,
both on and off of the topic of Traveller. I've been clobbered for saying
this before, but the TML is at its best when it is an open discussion by
players at all levels. It is at its worst when it is an professional/expert
battleground.

Secondly, I offer this exchange between my agitated alter ego and a former
TML member. This sort of exchange is going on quite often between people who
would prefer to be great fans and participating members of this forum.

 - Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML -

Crusty: I think that I will rail again
Sunbeard: you have the floor, Sir
Crusty: well, I'm going to wear my leathers, because I'm sure to be flogged
Sunbeard: heh
Crusty: because I'm going to rail on the TML
Sunbeard: biker gang outfit required.
Crusty: yea, doubtless
Sunbeard: would you like to borrow the persona of Sunbeard the Pirate?
Crusty: no, I have Crusty
Sunbeard: he's sort of got the ZZ-top, biker-gang look
Sunbeard: and he doesn't give a Groatle crap what people say about piracy in
the Marches
Crusty: well, I need the Crusty persona
Sunbeard: "whiny university professors with their skinny pointers and shaky
hands..."
Crusty: since I am going to rail against the elitist, snobbish tenor of the
posts
Sunbeard: oh dear.  I guess you need to fight fire with fire.
Sunbeard: won't work to alarm their sensibilities
Sunbeard: do you have a URL for me?
Sunbeard: I love reading snobbish elitism.  it makes me blood boil, aye it
does.
Crusty: URL? what are we URLing so URLie in the marnin?
Sunbeard: a sample article, or perhaps a forum name..
Crusty: have you ever been on the TML? surely you have
Sunbeard: OH
Sunbeard: the TML
Sunbeard: now I remember
Sunbeard: it were many a moon ago
Sunbeard: I quit in disgust
Sunbeard: partly because my ego was bruised
Crusty: the very same, sir
Crusty: they say pirates are impossible
Sunbeard: *sniff*
Sunbeard: poor me
Crusty: you know the lubbers well
Sunbeard: my precious, precious ego
Crusty: Egobeard
Sunbeard: LOL
Sunbeard: I like that
Sunbeard: I should have my name officially changed
Crusty: there's a good persona for you
Sunbeard: yah!
Sunbeard: but "Sunbeard da Pirate" sounds more dashing
Crusty: okay
Sunbeard: heh
Sunbeard: Egobeard
Sunbeard: ok, anyhow, what's happened this time?
Crusty: more of the same, nothing in particular, just that it gets worse and
worse
Sunbeard: I thought the online fora must increase, and the TML must
decrease.
Crusty: well, that is easier said than done
Sunbeard: die hard
Crusty: with 50-100+ posts per day, the TML holds the crown
Sunbeard: wow!  still so busy after all these years.  any content?
Crusty: my web boards get about 2 posts average... and they are partly
broken
Crusty: tiny content
Crusty: noise/signal very bad
Sunbeard: hm.  what's most of the TML posts about nowadays?  bummer.
Sunbeard: time was when signal was high quality
Crusty: we just had about 600 posts about what is a "Foil"
Crusty: as in swords
Sunbeard: oh
Sunbeard: that doesn't count towards the list volume, I think
Sunbeard: can you regulate that kind of noise on the online lists?
Crusty: Traveller's Aide #1 was published, with good success, and all they
can talk about is why a Book 1 Foil/Sabre/Sword is badly described
Sunbeard: oh
Sunbeard: I'm glad I quit
Crusty: and then they get into a pissing match to prove who knows the most
about foils
Crusty: mostly what we get are wet feet
* Sunbeard blasts a hearty laugh
Crusty: then they whip out their URLs and start firing
Crusty: 'cuz you KNOW that if it is published on the Web that it must be
authoritative
Sunbeard: aye, so it is.
Crusty: then they have the argument about the authority of the WWW vs. their
book collection
Crusty: then which authors are knowledgeable and which are ninnies
Sunbeard: I knew the gearheads would attenuate
Crusty: then how many years they have studied the subject, or been an
instructor, or lectured on the subject
Sunbeard: I KNEW this would happen!  Those freaks need a life!
Crusty: then it always comes down to how many Traveller books they have
written
Crusty: that is the final shot
Crusty: unless they decide to argue over why writing for one version is
better than another
Crusty: which makes for a free-for-all
Sunbeard: Marc Miller wrote lots of Traveller books, and he says the referee
should USE GOOD JUDGEMENT.
Crusty: then somebody rolls out a huge Canon
Crusty: and we have to clear the decks
* Sunbeard snorts
Crusty: sometimes Loren will correct the glaring errors in the arguments and
people will calm down for awhile
Sunbeard: so you're frustrated, and rightly so.
Sunbeard: is railing going to help?  what kind of rail are you thinking of?
Crusty: well, last night on #traveller we were having a discussion
Crusty: and the consensus of the "little people" is that they are afraid to
post
Crusty: that the elites will kill them with one thrust of a sharp tongue
Crusty: they see how newbies are beat up upon and cower
Sunbeard: oh, they call those people "PKs" in the online games.
Player-Killers who slay the weak for fun.
Crusty: but TML is supposed to be an open forum
Crusty: and the few are squelching the many
Sunbeard: yes
Sunbeard: it ought to be a 1st amendment society
Crusty: then you get really good posts by Jeff Zeitlin or MJD or whomever
and nobody replies
Crusty: why? because the elites only want to polish their own brass and the
newbies are cowering
Sunbeard: gah
Sunbeard: sounds like idiots.
Sunbeard: the solution: the meek should come online.  the strong never will
leave a comfortable forum.
Crusty: I think that the flow of ideas is seriously squelched by the
behavior of people who... could really benefit from a new idea
Sunbeard: ...to put it nicely
Crusty: well, guess what
Crusty: this convo has been just the thing
Crusty: I'm going to publish this log of our session here
Sunbeard: uh oh
Sunbeard: heh
Sunbeard: ok
Sunbeard: glad to be a sounding board
Sunbeard: it's what I do best

________________________________________

This is living...
   This is style...
      This is elegance,
         By the mile!

O the posh posh travelling life the travelling life for me
First cabin and captain's table regal company
Whenever I'm bored I travel abroad, but ever so properly
Port out, starboard home, posh with a capital P-O-S-H, posh



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 11:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May  9 10:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meat
In-Reply-To: <m3wuudnyp5.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B8FFFE6F.5A859%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/9/02 8:11 AM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> 
> Personaly, I think PETA members should be shipped to the Rockies to
> explain to hungry grizzlies the virtues of veganism...

Oh...That PETA.  I thought you were talking about the People for the Eating
of Tasty Animals.

It's like my friend Ed says "I God had not wanted us to eat animals, he
wouldn't have made them out of meat."

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 11:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu May  9 10:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meat
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020509073011.00a01810@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205091019090.4775-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 9 May 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 11:35 PM 5/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Somehow, I suspect PETA is not especially happy with ANYTHING the US Army
> >does.
> 
> They aren't.
> 
> Of course, us cancer patients are overly thrilled with PETA trying to shut 
> down the research that keeps us alive.

We who work in research hospitals and medical schools are really fond of
lockdowns, terrorist threats, and coming in to work to find the corpses of
animals that have killed themselves and each other after being "released"
first thing in the morning, or trying to figure out where wounded or
infected animals might have gone.

Members of PeTA who would like to become experimental volunteers, the line
starts here.  If you are not willing, SHUT UP.  Your vaunted "computer
modelling" can only predict reactions to therapies which are similar to
those reactions that have occurred in the past.  Find me a precognitive,
clairvoyant computer, and maybe THEN we can skip the experiment.

I would love to get my hands on the idiots who let Dr. Prusiner's
prion-infected lab animals loose in 1999.

As for me, I am going to continue to wear leather, wear fur, eat meat, and
work where I do, and anyone who throws paint on me or sticks bubblegum on
my clothes will be charged with assault and prosecuted to the full extent
of the law.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 11:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu May  9 10:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEILDNAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEILDNAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <m3n0v9ut8h.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Ah, the long plaintive cry of the man who knows not how to kill
unwanted threads.  By God, we cannot have folks discussing interesting
and pertinent issues here!

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Voskrese!  Voistinu Voskrese!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 11:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu May  9 10:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] FW: ADMIN: List etiquette -- a reminder
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEILDNAA.tml@downport.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Rob Miracle
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 1:36 PM
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
Subject: ADMIN: List ettiquite -- a reminder


Mailing lists, including this one expect cordial behavior out of
everyone.  If you have a personal disagreement with someone that has to do
with their person or personality, please take it off list.  No one on here
should be hostile or harassing to anyone else.

List is a very old and distinguished mailing list and overall is one of the
best behaved lists on the Internet.  It is a very good example of a self
maintaining list.  I rarely have to get involved in problems, so when I do,
I take all mis-behavior reports seriously and such reports will be
investigated.  I also believe in the three strikes rule.  You get a
warning, then a suspension, then a boot from the list.

As serious as I take behavior, since it can be detrimental to list
function, so are off-topic posts.  Please refrain from making such
posts.  If you get the urge to post off toping and you put an OT: in the
subject to warn people its off topic, you should perhaps think twice before
continuing.   Examples of off topic posts are discussions of modern day
warfare, politics, religion, breaking news etc.  While we all want to talk
about them, ** IT AINT TRAVELLER **
and this is a Traveller list.

I thank you and the hundreds of members of this list thank you for your
attention to these small rules.

Rob Miracle
yer list Mom.
--
Rob Miracle <rmiracle@iencentral.com>
Director of Internet Development
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious
http://www.iencentral.com/



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 11:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Thu May  9 10:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] All Psi party
In-Reply-To: <OF254F0F9F.BE9A7630-ON85256BB1.0057A069@pheaa.org>
Message-ID: <20020509174101.99686.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

I have an all psi party; I've been doing pretty good
so far, but am  concerned about the future of my
campaign. Any ideas about handling an all psionicist
party are welcome and appreciated.
Only 3 people one guy dropped out. Looking for others
in the Starkville, MS area.
thanks.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 11:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu May  9 10:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why Vacc Suit?
References: <000501c1f768$bcb73fb0$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <3CDA9C96.8080609@telocity.com>

Mark wrote:

> Vacc vs. Vac
> 
> I bet they didn't want it to look anything like Shop Vac.


Was the Shop Vac invented in 1977? I can't remember.

When I was first asked this, 25 years ago, my answer was, "They 
probably spell about as poorly as I do."  Over the years vacc has 
always been sort of reasuring to me, a symbol of continuity. IG, 
I used the same handwave Swordy mentioned, "brand name that has 
become generic."

I don't recall Marc or Loren ever explaining "Why Vacc Suit?" on 
the list, however.

BTW, IG refers to 'In Game' in this case, not 'Imperium Games.'

Eris




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May  9 11:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEILDNAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <B9000745.5A8D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/9/02 10:22 AM, Swordy at tml@downport.com wrote:

> 
> - Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML -

Point taken an in such a fashion, I cannot help but laugh.  I Swordy
volunteering to moderate the list?  I'd accept that.

Tod meekly promises to be good and try to keep extraneous stuff off list.
Tml-chat or elsewhere.

Swordy's point is valid, and I cannot but admit to being a prime offender.
As listmon prime, I chastise myself.  Let us all renew our vows to make the
TML a welcoming, Traveller place.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May  9 11:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meat
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205091019090.4775-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <B900079A.5A8DD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/9/02 10:24 AM, Kiri Aradia Morgan at tiamat@tsoft.com wrote:

> As for me, I am going to continue to wear leather, wear fur, eat meat, and
> work where I do, and anyone who throws paint on me or sticks bubblegum on
> my clothes will be charged with assault and prosecuted to the full extent
> of the law.

You go girl!

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu May  9 11:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEMBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>on 5/7/02 6:50 AM, Derek Wildstar at wildstar@qrc.com wrote:
>
>> At 05:32 PM 5/6/2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>>> Committing an act that is legal in the place where committed normally
will
>>> not constitute any sort of crime in another place, even if the actor
goes
>>> from that other place to the place where she will commit the act
>>
>> I'd say that this is a key tenet of Imperial law: while worlds may make
>> (nearly) whatever laws they wish, they cannot extend the reach of their
law
>> across interstellar space.  Thus you cannot be convicted on Regina for an
>> activity that took place on Efate.
Tod Glenn replied to Derek Wildstar:
>Think about the impact this would have.  It would be like eliminating all
>extradition laws on earth. Anyone could commit any crime, and so long as
>they got to a ship, and left system, they would be safe.

Tod, you're mixing up two different sets of facts.

Extradition is the process (grounded in treaty) whereby a fugitive who
committed a crime in Place A and fled to Place B can be sent back to Place
A.  Those are not the facts under discussion.

The factual situation we are discussing is where an act is a crime in Place
A but not Place B, and Place A seeks to punish someone who committed that
act in Place B.  If the actor is at Place A, Place A's courts can exercise
jurisdiction over the actor; the issue is whether Place A can make the act a
crime without regard to where it was committed.

Extradition would only arise if the actor were still at Place B and Place A
made a request for extradition.

This is not a question of counting angels dancing on the head of a pin.  The
United States government, within the previous decade, prosecuted a United
States citizen for having sex with a minor in a country where the other
person was not considered a minor.  (I read about it in The Recorder, the
San Francisco area legal newspaper, and as I recall the defendant was from
California; google.com or The Recorder may lead to specific information.)

Derek Wildstar again:
> On top of this, I'd also suggest that certain acts (such as murder) are
> Imperial crimes, and illegal everywhere.  Thus, even if dueling is allowed
> on Efate, if someone actually kills their opponent, they can be convicted
> of murder regardless of where the crime was committed.

The only crimes that I see the Imperium enforcing within member worlds are
espionage, treason, insurrection, other crimes against the security of the
imperial state, and slave-holding.  The social contract among the worlds,
the Imperium, and the nobility calls for nearly complete local autonomy --
even to the extent of allowing member states and corporations to go to war
with one another within certain limits. So if one world is allowing itself
to become a haven for criminals from another world, it's up to those two
members of the Imperium to settle their differences, no doubt assisted by
the good offices of the subsector duke (or the bad offices of the local
mercenary forces).

There is no doubt a uniform Imperial law that applies on Imperial
facilities, Capital, and probably starports.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Thu May  9 11:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why Vacc Suit?
Message-ID: <20020509180746.21688.qmail@web10607.mail.yahoo.com>

quote

After typing "vacc" in google I got page after page of
VACC acromyns, which 
leads me to beleive that VACC is infact an acromyn.

Vacuum Able Comfy Clothing?
Vacuum Anti croaking clothes?
Very Airtight Closed Costume?

-Brian

quote

Hmm, yes I like this, never had a problem with
acronyms (long as its all caps) like SCUBA not Scuba.
So VACC Suit is good. Lets put our collective
intellect to the task of deriving a truly great, not
discounting the examples above ;) , origin? Note that
the word vacuum needn't be part of the name at all, 
as demonstrated above. I'm going to have to give my
contribution some thought... 

btw thanks also to all the other  replies to this,
more juicy game bits there too...



______________________________________________________________________ 
Games, Movies, Music & Sports! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu May  9 11:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] FW: ADMIN: List etiquette -- a reminder
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEILDNAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEILDNAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <m3it5xurc8.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

*plonk*

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Voskrese!  Voistinu Voskrese!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Kemp)
Date: Thu May  9 11:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: What makes a good Traveller adventure?
Message-ID: <20020509182036.46296.qmail@web11204.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks, Everyone, for the wonderful advice.

From the sounds of it, I am probably being overwhelmed by the scale of
both the setting and the options available to the characters. My
players have commented on that very thing themselves, so that makes a
lot of sense.

The many suggestions about how to build good Traveller adventures was
very appreciated. Hopefully, I'll be able to use it all soon. :)

Until then, thanks,
Jason Kemp

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu May  9 11:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What makes a good Traveller adventure?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEMBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Jason Kemp <flynnwd@yahoo.com>
>
>Sadly, I get some sort of GM-Block when I try to run SF, particularly
>Traveller. How is it different from running a fantasy game? What makes
>for good adventure concepts? What makes for a good overarching campaign
>plotline? How does one get over a hurdle like this?
>
>I ask you guys this because you are all diehard fans that have
>obviously played and run the game we love for years. Do you have any
>suggestions that you'd like to share with a fellow Traveller who would
>like to become a good referee?

I can't really compare fantasy and science fiction campaigns, because I have
not run a fantasy campaign in well over 20 years, and haven't played in one
in nearly that long.  I will offer you some general advice:  a good story is
a good story.  A good story has conflict.  A good story has a setting that
the referee knows intimately and can convey to the players.  What kinds of
conflicts do you like to do in the fantasy context?  People versus people?
People versus nature?  People versus themselves (this conflict does not
usually make for interesting gaming, but it does makes great literature)?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:25:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May  9 11:25:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEMBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B9000D0B.5A8EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/9/02 10:57 AM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

> Tod, you're mixing up two different sets of facts.

I realized this. Sorry.
> 
> The only crimes that I see the Imperium enforcing within member worlds are
> espionage, treason, insurrection, other crimes against the security of the
> imperial state, and slave-holding.  The social contract among the worlds,
> the Imperium, and the nobility calls for nearly complete local autonomy --
> even to the extent of allowing member states and corporations to go to war
> with one another within certain limits. So if one world is allowing itself
> to become a haven for criminals from another world, it's up to those two
> members of the Imperium to settle their differences, no doubt assisted by
> the good offices of the subsector duke (or the bad offices of the local
> mercenary forces).

Point taken.  I suppose my concern has less to do with what makes sense for
the Imperium than how it immediately effects players.  Of course, your
system doesn't preclude extradition treaties between worlds.

I'm looking at the possibility of characters travelling from world to world
wreaking mayhem and then escaping to the next world to languish in total
freedom.  The Imperium must be heaven for serial killers.
> 
> There is no doubt a uniform Imperial law that applies on Imperial
> facilities, Capital, and probably starports.

This addresses my second question.  What happens when a character commits a
heinous crime on planet, and then crosses over the extrality line?


All this stuff is great, BTW.  It's an area I've only glossed over IMTU, so
all this is going into the 'keepers' file.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May  9 11:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What makes a good Traveller adventure?
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEMBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B9000EB7.5A8F2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/9/02 11:17 AM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> I can't really compare fantasy and science fiction campaigns, because I have
> not run a fantasy campaign in well over 20 years, and haven't played in one
> in nearly that long.  I will offer you some general advice:  a good story is
> a good story.  A good story has conflict.  A good story has a setting that
> the referee knows intimately and can convey to the players.  What kinds of
> conflicts do you like to do in the fantasy context?  People versus people?
> People versus nature?  People versus themselves (this conflict does not
> usually make for interesting gaming, but it does makes great literature)?

To the above I'll add that good characters make for good games.  sure, many
NPCs are just throw-aways.  But it helps to make the game 'real' by have
characters with character.  Spend time with your NPCs.  Get to know them.
Walk around in their clothes.  A story without good characters is a
recitation of events.  A good character without a good story is still a good
character.  A great game takes both.  And you'll find that once you flesh
out and understand your NPCs and how they think, the story will practically
write itself.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu May  9 11:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEMCCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
>
>Not all; I've posted on this before, so I'll just summarize: the Imperium
>defines several major crimes (murder, slavery, grand theft, fraud, etc.)
>with empire-wide minimum definitions.  Worlds are free to enact more
>restrictive laws, but must enforce the Imperial minimums.  If so requested
>by a representative of the Emperor, worlds must extradite individuals
>suspected of Imperial crimes.

Here's where your and my Traveller universes diverge.  My Imperium is not
interested in what its member states' citizens do to each other, nor in what
the member states do to their citizens.  Imperial attention is only drawn to
what member states may do to each other -- and they may even go to war,
within limits, so they can do a lot without the Imperium intervening.
Imperial crimes therefore are limited to insurrection, treason, espionage,
and the like, as well as slave-holding for historical reasons. Lese majeste
may be prosecuted, but probably only against the nobility.

>The net effect is that if you've offended the Holy Day of Plugsarb
>(observed planet wide by the religious dictatorship on Erokle IV) by
>wearing the wrong shade of yellow, you can escape the mandatory death
>sentence if you can make it to the starport before the Holy Wardens get
>you.  And you're safe, as long as you're willing to avoid visiting Erokle
>IV again.  On the other hand, if you kill someone on Regina, going to Efate
>will not save you from eventual extradition and prosecution (presuming that
>Regina does care enough about justice to want you back again).

Why does the Imperium have to get involved?  If, under the first set of
facts, Erokle IV makes a request for extradition to wherever you've run
after escaping the fashion police, that world can look at its treaty with
Erokle IV, if it has one, and at its own law of extradition, and decide
whether to send you back or not.  If you ran to Pysadi or Pavabid, for
example, they might just send you back because they believe that religious
dictatorships (i.e., similar governments) should be supported -- or they
might not, because they oppose the Plugsarbian religion.

The same analysis applies to the homicide on Regina.  Efate will send you
back or not, depending on the same factors.

In neither case does the Imperium care whether you're extradited or not.
The service of justice on one miscreant or another out of qui- sep-
whatever-illions is not going to upset the security of the Imperium, nor
impair its legitimacy within the social contract.

Derek Wildstar:
>Yes; we talked about that before on the TML, and came up with a reasonable
>solution that involved the termination of life processes.  I can't recall
>the exact wording right now.

A discussion occurred, but there is still no reason for the Imperium to
impose (and try to enforce, where the member state refuses to do so) a legal
code on its member states.  There is actually much reason not to, most
importantly because so doing abnegates local automony at the most basic
level.

Well, maybe the foregoing is moot, because a couple of posts later, you
start leaning toward agreement with my analysis:

>From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
>
>At 12:39 PM 5/7/2002, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>>I see no reason for the Imperium to _care_ when one of its quintillions of
>>sophonts is murdered.  It'll care about treason (an act against the
>>Imperium itself), but not about murder.
>
>On reflection, good point.
>
>I'd still suggest that the Imperium cares about some kinds of murder (such
>as of Imperial officials, Imperial Nobility, and possibly officers of the
>Imperial services).  But you're right - the Imperial laws probably cover
>treason, and various kinds of law as is needed to foster interstellar
>commerce (money, taxes, contracts, ownership, etc.).

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu May  9 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TA1 Edged weapons
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEMDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>To: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>, tml@travellercentral.com
>
>My father has always advocated a sharpened spade for use in riots.Not
>too long, can be used to club with (both ends), stab with, slash with
>and as a short staff to push with. I think he intended to hold it just
>below the grip and at the top of the metal socket (about a foot above
>the blade) and use it like a short quarterstaff.

I have an East German entrenching tool, rather like the Spetsnaz throwing
shovel.  It would make a good melee weapon.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:55:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu May  9 11:55:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEMDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>We've discussed criminals who flee to another planet to avoid prosecution.
>What about those who flee across the extrality line onto the starport
>(technically Imperial territory with LL0)?
>
>Also, who attends to crimes committed on the starport itself, IYTU?  What
is
>the Imperial legal system?  How are criminals dealt with.  Where are they
>incarcerated, etc.

I'm not sure the starport necessarily has law level 0.

Conduct on the starport is governed by Imperial law, which is enforced by
the Starport Authority.

Extradition from the starport back to the world is subject to the treaty
between the Imperium and the world pursuant to which that world became a
member of the Imperium.  The extradition terms reflect compromises by both
parties, of course.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:55:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu May  9 11:55:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Anti-Imperial sentiments in the Imperium
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEMDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
>
>That's a _pan-sophontist_ anarcho-syndicalist commune with freedom of
choice
>as to psionics, of course.

Of course.  I must correct that macro.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu May  9 11:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <m3n0v9ut8h.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEJADNAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Robert Uhl
>
> Ah, the long plaintive cry of the man who knows not how to kill
> unwanted threads.  By God, we cannot have folks discussing interesting
> and pertinent issues here!

Oh yes, I'm quite inept in most every way. It just seemed more efficient to
me for each of us to "kill unwanted threads" at the source and save 800
others from needing to bother.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:56:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu May  9 11:56:23 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <B9000D0B.5A8EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000801c1f78b$2adc4cc0$0b01a8c0@duck>

[bunches of stuff deleted]

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I'm looking at the possibility of characters travelling from world to
world
> wreaking mayhem and then escaping to the next world to languish in total
> freedom.  The Imperium must be heaven for serial killers.

First, you have to remember that (ignoring the PC issue for a second),
this will be an veyr, very small problem.  Almost all of the people
who would be serial killers just won't have the resources to world-hop
like that.  That is an incredible degree of freedom that just doesn't
exist for almost everyone in the Imperium.  The only real exceptions
to that are PCs and nobles.

Plus, regardless of whether we are dealing with PCs or nobles, once
a person has hit a few planets (definition of "few" is the GM's choice),
the Imperium is going to notice.  Regardless of the specific laws,
it becomes annoying and *someone* with pull will want it to stop.

> This addresses my second question.  What happens when a character commits
a
> heinous crime on planet, and then crosses over the extrality line?

As someone else noted (I forgot who), this has to be done on a case-by-case
basis.  What is the relationship between the SPA and the world/national/
local government?  Is the SPA (or someone relevant in it) bribable?  Just
what is "heinous".

I would guess that if a truly "heinous" crime was commited by a character,
the SPA would not hesitate to turn them over to the local authorities on
principle.  ("If they did it there, they will do it here.  Just get rid
of him.")

Quite frankly, in both cases, I just don't see where hard and fast
rules would be necessary.  Just let the story line dictate.

If the problem characters are PCs, then the hammer will come down at
some point, or they will have to run fast and very, very far.

If the problem characters are NPCs, then it sounds like a pair of
very excellent adventure hooks.  E.g: An out-of-control noble who no
one else is willing to touch, but now the PCs have track down, find
something to stick, and bring them back to justice.  (Like that has
never been done before!)

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu May  9 11:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b8ff671673c5@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205091156440.4775-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 8 May 2002, David P. Summers wrote:

> At 1:54 PM -0700 5/8/02, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> >I don't know what to say.  I guess nothing is probably best.  I mean,
> >there is really no polite way to tell her it's wrong, especially when
> >she's telling everyone that she's seen the episode.
> 
> She's happy, what difference does it make if she's wrong?

Someone someday who isn't as nice as me may well tell her so very
unpolitely?

Kiri 

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 12:59:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Thu May  9 11:59:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <B9000745.5A8D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEJBDNAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
>
> Point taken an in such a fashion, I cannot help but laugh.  I Swordy
> volunteering to moderate the list?  I'd accept that.

I'm in support of self-moderation.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 13:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu May  9 12:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEMDCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020971648.1367.ajackson@ping>

Glenn M. Goffin writes:
> 
> I'm not sure the starport necessarily has law level 0.

Given the way 'imperial law' works (government of men, not law), the law level
of the starport is whatever the starport administrator says it is.  Unless
there's conflict between the SPA and the world, the law level of the starport
is probably similar to the law level of the world.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 13:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu May  9 12:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] AuricTech Shipyards _Dido_-class Light Cruiser (long)
In-Reply-To: <3CCCB6E8.CF6883B@premier.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020509151654.01deb070@pop.wizard.net>

John Groth's FFS 2 design:
>Yet another cruiser design from AuricTech, _Dido_ is primarily a killer
>of smaller vessels, with 20 large NPAW linear bay weapons.

Nice design, I like it quite a bit, as well as the naval power philosophy 
it seems to be part of.  I'd snag it for MTU, but I prefer MT ship design 
rules and that rules out the Dido design as inconsistent.  However, I'll 
attempt to copy it in the MT rules.

I've always loved the AuricTech slogan, btw.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu May  9 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEJADNAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c1f78e$ab5c63a0$0b01a8c0@duck>

> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Swordy
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Robert Uhl
> >
> > Ah, the long plaintive cry of the man who knows not how to kill
> > unwanted threads.  By God, we cannot have folks discussing interesting
> > and pertinent issues here!
> 
> Oh yes, I'm quite inept in most every way. It just seemed more 
> efficient to
> me for each of us to "kill unwanted threads" at the source and save 800
> others from needing to bother.

I do have to say that telling people to "kill unwanted threads" just
doesn't cut it.

Many subscribe to the digest, where it is impossible to kill unwanted
threads.  (This is the single reason why I do NOT use the digest.)
And when recieving hundreds of these messages a day, it is still a pain
to have to weed through the off-topic posts to find what on-topic
posts interest me.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 13:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu May  9 12:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <000801c1f78b$2adc4cc0$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1020972526.54.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I'm looking at the possibility of characters travelling from world to world
> wreaking mayhem and then escaping to the next world to languish in total
> freedom.  The Imperium must be heaven for serial killers.

Not really.  Even if there is no specific extradition law in the Imperium,
worlds are perfectly free to send out messages saying 'person X is persona non
grata, and here's why', and while there's no requirement that other worlds _do_
anything with this information, there's no requirement that they _not_ do so
either.

Remember, the INS doesn't actually need an extradition treaty to send someone
back where they came from.

The same applies to extrality zones, only more so.  Unless the starport
administrator figures you (or something you represent) is worth getting into an
argument with the local government, he'll probably inform criminals that they
aren't welcome in the port, and send marines to escort them out.  This may take
a while, but it's no worse than the modern trick of running into an embassy and
asking for protection.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 13:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu May  9 12:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <000a01c1f78e$ab5c63a0$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <000a01c1f78e$ab5c63a0$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <m3d6w5gltn.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> writes:
> 
> Many subscribe to the digest, where it is impossible to kill
> unwanted threads.  (This is the single reason why I do NOT use the
> digest.)

This is why digests are dumb.  With a good mail reader, you can
receive every message individually and _automatically_ file it in an
appropriate folder.  Then you can read that folder once a day--or once
a week, if that's your thing--as you like, with full threading &c.

Mailreaders offering these features have been around for nearly a
decade now.

The only real reason I can see for a digest is if somehow one receives
mail in such a fashion that it is cheaper--for some meaning of that
word--to receive one very large message rather than many small ones.
I cannot think what would cause this, given that even over a
phone-speed link email flows very quickly, but I'll grant the
theoretical possibility.

Of course, really good mail clients offer the ability to split
digests.

> And when recieving hundreds of these messages a day, it is still a
> pain to have to weed through the off-topic posts to find what
> on-topic posts interest me.

Again, a decent mailreader provides the ability to, in a few
keystrokes, mark a particular thread, poster, topic or what-have-you
as scored lower or higher than others, and to kill threads scoring too
low, as well as hilight threads scoring fairly highly.

Given that email is by far the most widely used resource of network
connectivity, one would expect that users would seek out better
clients than (Netscape |Hot|Yahoo! )Mail.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Krishhti Unjall!  Vertet Unjall!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 13:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu May  9 12:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <F42fOy8Wx1jgTGAP2tb00002903@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020509152431.029743b0@pop.wizard.net>

Replying to Jeff Rowse's post about a scheme for computer-based recognition 
of faces of criminals who might show up on CCTV cameras mounted in central 
London.

Why were they being arrested?  Were they fugitives on the wanted list?  Or 
did we jump a little too far in our conclusion?  From the description, it 
sounded to me like these were known criminals who had already served their 
time and were released back into society.  Being a ex-convict isn't a crime 
in itself.

I'm a Yank, with certain neolibertarian tendencies regarding civil rights, 
so the idea of shopping mall owners being allowed to exclude ex-convicts 
from entering an establishment otherwise open to the public really galls 
me.  As does the idea that the government would have the police go to so 
much trouble to help out the shopping mall owners in this scheme.  It may 
be private property, but the minute they throw it open to public access 
they've ethically and legally limited a lot of their right to be 
selective.  Modify this paragraph appropriately for each Traveller 
government and law level you are running in YTU.

When considering the ObTrav implications of this idea, remember that the 
London scheme is a prototype trial run at TL 7 to 8.  A TL 12 society would 
be capable of implementing the same scheme much more 
effectively.  Probably.  Unless you decide that there are absolute limits 
to computerized face recognition that can never be exceeded regardless of 
the computing power and video technology.

IMTU, a TL 12+ society should be able to implement such a scheme with 
pretty good effectiveness, but not exceeding a 90% success rate.  Too many 
intangibles and variables with large ranges.

My own character in Tod Glenn's campaign has been going to a _lot_ of 
trouble to avoid being picked up by just such a recognition system in the 
high port at Regina.  (When some of the police are corrupt killers working 
for SolSec and they are targeting you, you avoid all police.)  There are a 
lot of things someone who wants to avoid detection can and probably will 
do.  Thus increasing their chances of avoiding detection way above the 10% 
level.  I think.  :->

My percentage figures are not based on arcane calculations.  They're just 
numbers I pulled out of the air because they "feel right" to me.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 13:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu May  9 12:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <B8EC12F8.58455%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B85@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020509154409.02450e50@pop.wizard.net>

Tod Glenn asked:
>This brings up an interesting question for PC visiting a relatively high law
>level world.  Are they entered into a database because adventurers are a
>suspicious class of people?

Player characters are a notorious bunch of troublemakers.  Or at least, 
troubleseekers.  If only we could know which of us are PCs and which are 
NPCs, it would make law enforcement that much easier.  :->

The opposite side of the same coin is the guy in 'Galaxy Quest' who feared 
for his life when going down to the planet, because he was obviously a 
spearcarrier character intended by the writers to be killed by aliens in 
order to demonstrate to the audience how dangerous the aliens are.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 14:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Thu May  9 13:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] JTAS Reprints, Other Reprints, and Gamelords
In-Reply-To: <000a01c1f78e$ab5c63a0$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <000a01c1f78e$ab5c63a0$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <200205091608570366.0D906999@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

If you haven't already preordered it, we now have the first JTAS reprint in=
 stock, along with a restock of the Classic Books reprint, and the Short=
 Adventures reprint. Still lots of copies of the Classic Adventures, and=
 the Classic Games available also. Sorry, the Classic Supplements reprint=
 is out of stock, and currently out of print from Marc also.

As a reminder, we also just got in a shipment of Gamelords Traveller=
 material (mint condition) but they are going fast! Our thanks to everyone=
 who has ordered so far!

Reprints:
http://www.TravellerRPG.com/Classic/reprints.html

Gamelords
http://www.TravellerRPG.com/Classic/gamelords.html

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu May  9 13:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: ISSDEC: May Competition
Message-ID: <3CDAD703.77CB3DB1@mail.cswnet.com>

Walt Smith writes [Wed, 08 May 2002 08:46:10 -0400]:
>This will be a problem for some design sequences, as
>they stipulate annual maintenance at a starport to prevent
>drive failure and misjumps.  Unless some rules provision
>exists for wilderness maintenance, endurance may as well
>be limited to one year.

9500dt ship, 5dt worth missiles/sandcasters, 60dt worth fighters,
200dt worth cutters. Total crew incl marines and scientists=201

HG2 Logistitcs:
Two ways to evaluate that I know of:

Using Walt Smiths' "Logistics in High Guard: Optional rules for 
fleet supply in High Guard and Trillion Credit Squadron" available
on the web somewhere.
Ship requires 56dt stores per month, 672dt for one year.

Using L. Guatneys' "Ref's Notes: High Guard and TCS Campaigns,"
available in JTAS no24 pg24-42
Ship requires 95dt stores for 5 years, 672dt for 35.368 years.
Does not include ammunition for missile racks or sandcasters.

If anyone else has any ideas on endurance feel free to share them 
with the group...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"I don't feel Tardy"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu May  9 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
References: <000801c1f78b$2adc4cc0$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <3CDAD893.2080604@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mike West wrote:
> [bunches of stuff deleted]

> First, you have to remember that (ignoring the PC issue for a second),
> this will be an veyr, very small problem.  Almost all of the people
> who would be serial killers just won't have the resources to world-hop
> like that.  That is an incredible degree of freedom that just doesn't
> exist for almost everyone in the Imperium.  The only real exceptions
> to that are PCs and nobles.

Hardly. The Imperium couldn't possibly support the level of trade it 
does without there being a rather large amount of personal travel 
between systems.

Look at the Starport specs sometime, and trade numbers; they include 
passenger traffic. Thousand, tens of thousands per day. There are 
thousands and thousands of starports in the Imperium.

Sure, only a small portion of that poulation is moving at any given 
time, but there are LOTS of people who travel regularly, and lots more 
who travel more occasionally.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 14:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Thu May  9 13:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Logistics
In-Reply-To: <3CDAD703.77CB3DB1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020509162233.00a3fae0@mail.buffnet.net>

Howdy Folks,
   According to one book I have on space travel, it takes roughly 4 
kilograms of material using a roughly 90% effecient recycling system for 
water - to maintain a human in space.  This works out to roughly 7 people's 
worth of material for 1 year per displacement ton (using GURPS 
rules).  This does not include materials used for maintenance or wartime 
expendables.  Hope this helps...

              Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 14:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu May  9 13:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <7154DBD9F209D611AD7B0002E317A2646B88@KARPAD01>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020509161503.01dee4d0@pop.wizard.net>

At 04:24 PM 4/24/02 +0100, you wrote:
> >
> > So they run undesirables out of town?  Nice.
>
>Hardly. They would only be restricted from the main shopping precincts.
>
> >  Where do these
> > people go?
>
>Local shops in the area they lived.

And next year the local shops get their own cameras.  And the streets.  And 
the public transportation system.  And the private taxis.  And the 
homeowner's association covenants won't permit convicted or suspected 
criminals to buy or rent in their neighborhood.  And "suspicious" people 
are banned from being outside at night.  And during the day too, because 
it's hypocritical to make the streets safe at night by banning these people 
but just let them roam freely during the day.

Everyone reading this is a human and thus has made mistakes and done bad 
things from time to time during our lives.  Do we expect to be punished the 
rest of our lives for what we've done?  Most of us reading the TML are 
fairly nonconforming members of society with recognizably different 
patterns to our lifestyles.  Do we want to go through life being 
"inconvenienced" every time we just act like ourselves?

IMTU, a society that goes far down that patch is a society on the brink of 
explosive and violent change.  It's just human nature.


> >  And
> > who makes up that database.  Is it people who have been convicted of a
> > crime?  Those wanted in connection with criminal activity? Or
> > just those
> > detained by the police at some previous time?  What about
> > those who have
> > already 'paid their debt to society?'  Are they forever going
> > to be harassed
> > by the police.
>
>I would expect that the idea was to only inclued persistent
>shoplifters/vandals/muggers/car thieves etc
>And it is hardly and great difficulty to flag each record with an expiry
>date.
>
>So upon a criminal coming before the courts for the umpteenth time for
>such offences the court can order that their 'mugshot' be placed on the
>system for a specified length of time. If they stop offending then after
>that time they are removed from the database.

Nice thing for you to expect, but there are actually no laws governing who 
gets in the database how, how long they stay there, and nobody seems to 
have considered whether this is a form of government harassment that 
illegally exceeds the statutes governing what is a fair punishment.  People 
are just adding the extra years of fairly haphazard public harassment onto 
the original legal sentences because they have the power to do so.  Some 
teenager who was convicted of an impulse shoplifting five years ago can't 
go into the college bookstore now or buy groceries or go into the college 
cafeteria or library or student union.  Sound like cruel and unusual 
punishment?  It should sound like it, because that is what it is.  You were 
photographed once five years ago in the same car with that kid, which makes 
you a Known Associate.  You're banned from all those places, too.  Because 
you are a statistical match for a "narrow" list of people likely to commit 
such crimes.  It's their private property, they have the right to refuse 
you.  Right?

That's part of the problem, it all sounds so reasonable to most people 
because most of us never expect to be the ones inconvenienced by these 
Modest Proposals.  It's always going to be Some Other Guy.  It doesn't cost 
us anything, and we get promised freedom from worry about child molestors, 
terrorists, and muggers.  What a perfect world.  And if you disagree, that 
makes you a political protestor, a class of person likely to commit 
misdemeanor property crimes as well as participate in terrorist support 
networks.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 14:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu May  9 13:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Big Brother (was "Early anti-hijack")
In-Reply-To: <DAV47LyOIdyUvmt9LJ000005322@hotmail.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEJACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <005101c1ebed$17d07b00$52200050@matt>
 <20020425122912.B11625@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <DAV34aZVrDs9aAOPpBp00000a61@hotmail.com>
 <20020425150845.A12167@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020509163617.029769c0@pop.wizard.net>

>Given the current state of the art, how long do you think it will be before
>the performance of this system is able to live up to the hype?
>
>Bill Scheets aka "Tex"

Never.  The cameras will never be sufficiently ubiquitous.  The biometric 
algorithms will never be nearly perfectly effective.  The databases will 
always be shoddy.  The very people you most want to detect will be the ones 
most adept at fooling the system and will usually be trying to fool the 
system.  The laws governing what can and should be done and what is 
prohibited will be a mess.

But other than that, it's a good idea.

Oh, and most of the cameras will be transmitting on wireless 
networks.  That has several new sets of implications.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 15:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu May  9 14:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OT: Wargaming
References: <20020509172209.7141F27A05@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CDAE472.75F5C5C6@ameritech.net>



> Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 07:52:00 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>

> A question for all you wargaming guru's out there.
> What is the best way to get involved in wargaming?  I
> am thinking it might be a fun thing to do, but I would
> like to find out before I spend too much money.  So
> where do I start?

http://www.grognard.com/index.html

Is a good site for wargaming info. It also has links to a 
number of free games you can download and print out. 

Next go to your FLGS (Friendly Local Game Shop) and see if 
the have an opponents wanted board. If you don't know where
your FLGS is try, 

http://sjgames.com/gamerfinder/

HTH

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 15:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu May  9 14:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <3CDAD893.2080604@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <000b01c1f79d$e24603d0$0b01a8c0@duck>

> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson
> Mike West wrote:
> > [bunches of stuff deleted]
> 
> > First, you have to remember that (ignoring the PC issue for a second),
> > this will be an veyr, very small problem.  Almost all of the people
> > who would be serial killers just won't have the resources to world-hop
> > like that.  That is an incredible degree of freedom that just doesn't
> > exist for almost everyone in the Imperium.  The only real exceptions
> > to that are PCs and nobles.
> 
> Hardly. The Imperium couldn't possibly support the level of trade it 
> does without there being a rather large amount of personal travel 
> between systems.

That's not what I said.  I said that people *who would be serial killers*
won't have the resources, not people in general.

Almost all of the people who have the resources to world-hop have better,
more profitable things to do than be a serial killer.  Almost all serial
killers (again, except PCs and nobles) will not have the resources to
world-hop.

Aside from that, assuming reasonable planning, it should be quite possible
for someone to commit a murder (or even a group murder) and flee to another
planet.  It is much, much more difficult to have a pattern of murder and
freely move between planets.  Unless you have a ship.  And the only people
I can think of that would have a ship and do something as unprofitable as
serial killing are PCs and nobles.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu May  9 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
References: <000b01c1f79d$e24603d0$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <3CDAEF33.1000909@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mike West wrote:
>>[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson
>>Mike West wrote:
>>
>>>[bunches of stuff deleted]
>>
>>>First, you have to remember that (ignoring the PC issue for a second),
>>>this will be an veyr, very small problem.  Almost all of the people
>>>who would be serial killers just won't have the resources to world-hop
>>>like that.  That is an incredible degree of freedom that just doesn't
>>>exist for almost everyone in the Imperium.  The only real exceptions
>>>to that are PCs and nobles.
>>
>>Hardly. The Imperium couldn't possibly support the level of trade it 
>>does without there being a rather large amount of personal travel 
>>between systems.
> 
> 
> That's not what I said.  I said that people *who would be serial killers*
> won't have the resources, not people in general.

No, you said 'That is an incredible degree of freedom that just doesn't 
exist for almost everyone in the Imperium.'

I'm saying that such freedom (the freedom of travel we're speaking of) 
does, in fact exist for large proportions of the population.

It does not require huge resources to travel from system to system...if 
it did, then trade in goods would also require huge resources, and the 
imperium wouldn't function the way it obviously does.

> Almost all of the people who have the resources to world-hop have better,
> more profitable things to do than be a serial killer.  Almost all serial
> killers (again, except PCs and nobles) will not have the resources to
> world-hop.

Why? Many serial killers in the US have had significant resources. Many 
of them have gone undetected for a long time *because* their job or 
position in society enabled them to move about freely.

(A serial killer who is a crew member on a starship can get away with 
killing for a very long period of time, especially if they have an 
irregular or long route.)

I'm objecting to your assertion that it requires great resources to 
travel between systems...

Dragging it back to more plausible crimes; I'd expect confidence games 
to blossom hugely in the Imperium.

You have close contact for weeks at a time in transit to butter up your 
mark.

Land on their system, fleece the mark and as many of their friends as 
you can get away with, and vanish off planet again, to start the cycle anew.


> Aside from that, assuming reasonable planning, it should be quite possible
> for someone to commit a murder (or even a group murder) and flee to another
> planet.  It is much, much more difficult to have a pattern of murder and
> freely move between planets.  Unless you have a ship.  And the only people
> I can think of that would have a ship and do something as unprofitable as
> serial killing are PCs and nobles.

Your mistake is making the unwarranted assumption that serial killing is 
done for rational reasons.

NO one does serial killing for profit. (well, maybe some people, but we 
don't call 'em seial killers...we call 'em hit men.)

They do it because they have a sociopathic desire for ultimate personal 
control over their victims.

Note that sociopaths are often perfectly able to get by, even thrive in 
society (cf. The Green River Killer, who was happily married with three 
kids, and a successful career while he was killing prostitutes over a 
multi-year spree...and he didn't travel *at all*.)

There is, iirc, one russian who may have killed a huge number of people 
worldwide while he was a seemingly perfectly stable member of a 
freighter crew.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 16:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu May  9 15:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
In-Reply-To: <20020509151417.3B8E83FACE@nm0.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3CDB9D33.4144.410BD7@localhost>

On 9 May 2002 at 10:14, rgd@infinet.com wrote:

> What of players who's PCs have stats CDF or some similar, high,
> combination and are disappointed if there isn't one E/F?
> With one or two skills 4+ and a couple of moderate 2-3's
> and a couple throwaway 1s.  Maybe not Psi strength F, but they almost
> all try for it.  They typically look for the best weapons and armor
> their characters can find, and feel unprotected (though not
> underdressed) if they only get combat armor or reflect - i.e. they
> feel vulnerable and do what they can (within the spirit of the game
> mostly) to maximize their survival potential?

Sounds like a bounch of powergamers to me. The big difference between a 
powergamer and a munchkin, IMO, is that a powergamer wants a powerful 
character, but they're willing to take the risks to get it. They're 
also far more likely to be happy with a niche in a team than a 
munchkin. However the real test is how they behave when their character 
dies doing something dangerous. A powergamer says "Well, that's the 
risk we take", whereas a munchkin is liable to have a hissy fit, sit on 
the corner and sulk or exibit any number of other anti-social 
behaviours.
 
> My group typically hates to lose a character and goes to great lengths
> to plan, plot, equip, etc. for a mission, going in looking like a
> ragtag bunch of tanks (OK, not that bad) when violence is likely and
> suspiciously paranoid when it's not.  I.e., their characters do things
> that might be considered odd by the 'real people' of that milieu.
> When playing Top Secret years ago, it wasn't that unusual for to walk
> around wearing kevlar just investigating things, before any guns were
> drawn.
> Does that make them (and yes, us) munchkins?  Or as I hope, just
> typical if a bit paranoid adventurers?
> 
> Going by the rec.games.frp (IIRC) triad, we're probably more "gamists"
> than "simulationists" or "storytellers", though we definitely had
> attributes of all three.

rec.games.frp.advocacy. Most groups aren't 'pure' anything in that 
triad, unsurprisingly.

> I'd could argue that our PCs took
> extraordinary precautions in potentially dangerous situation *because*
> we cared about our PCs and their lives and adventures so much, but I
> must say when the subject of munchkins comes up and the various
> definitions fly, I have to wonder.

Nah. Not munchkins, just paranoid power-gamers. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 16:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu May  9 15:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <023a01c1f2ad$5f4f96c0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020509181736.01df6a60@pop.wizard.net>

Martin Dougherty asks:

>So; if only as a way of increasing the Signal-to-Sears ratio, how about a
>debate topic: The Future of CT - do you want QLI to support the CT line, or
>should we not bother wasting our efforts?

Support it!  Please.

As for my lack of noise, I've been AFK for a couple of weeks.  And Away 
 From FLGS for months.  (I guess that's AFF?)  Give me time and I'll see 
what's there.

I have been seeing good things about TA#1 and intend to buy it, but only 
after this month's bills are done.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 16:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Thu May  9 15:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Concerns
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020503114632.00b817e0@urbin.net>
References: <023a01c1f2ad$5f4f96c0$0a9793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020509182033.02974530@pop.wizard.net>

Mark Urbin:
>Ok...The Navy Foil.  According to TA#1, the IN Officers Dress uniform 
>includes a foil.
>The IM Dress uniform has it's traditional Cutlass and certain IA units 
>have a Cavalry Saber as part of theirs.
>
>The foil, which is also described as a 'privilege of rank' for nobles, 
>seems a wee bit pretentious to me.
>Anybody feel this way?
>
>Although it doesn't state it, I would put forth that the IN Enlisted Dress 
>Uniform includes a cutlass.
>The foil is reserved for Commissioned Officers.

Another opportunity for me to espouse the space axe.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 16:20:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu May  9 15:20:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
In-Reply-To: <200205091642.FWT00412@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CDB9ECF.18219.4753CA@localhost>

On 9 May 2002 at 12:43, John T. Kwon wrote:

> I'm personally not bothered that much.  I never knew there 
> was a term for it before coming to the TML.  Usually, I try 
> and set things up so that if some of the characters are 
> itching to try out that fusion gun, they'll get what they 
> want -- but the opposition may well have something equally 
> lethal.  I tend to think that "fair" fights, or times when 
> you're on the receiving end of an ambush, are places where 
> players will get killed, regardless of their weaponry or 
> armor.

One of my players is having real trouble with this concept. He's 
ignoring that fact that their best combat so far was when they ambushed 
the bad guys and is quite sure that it was another near-disaster 
because they were out-gunned. So he keeps on going for bigger and 
better guns and still gets shot up. Last weekend he opened up with an 
SMG in a bar and was miffed because he didn't get the bad guy who then 
proceeded to cut him up with an Imperial Army Officers' Sword (a real 
one, not a parade one). He also seemed to find it unreasonable that 
'spray and pray' from an SMG would have more chance of hitting other 
patrons than a single enemy. Now here, to my mind is a munchkin. He may 
not have a 'ultimate' character, but he does have the attitude.
 
> The other area that some may overlook is contingency plans.  
> I don't need to know about them until you exercise them, but 
> you had better have one.

It's amazing the groups that leap up and down about 'wasting time' and 
'let's get on with it' when I (as a player), raise the idea.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 16:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu May  9 15:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] All Psi party
In-Reply-To: <20020509174101.99686.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <OF254F0F9F.BE9A7630-ON85256BB1.0057A069@pheaa.org> <20020509174101.99686.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020510082332.A12385@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Tackett wrote:
> I have an all psi party; I've been doing pretty good so far, but am
> concerned about the future of my campaign.

What type of campaign are you running?  What do the players like?
What do you want?

A campaign based in the Zhodani coreward expeditions is going to have
greatly different constraints and consequences than an Imperial free
trader campaign based around a few people trying to hide their
abilities from the authorities and general citizenry.


> Any ideas about handling an all psionicist party are welcome and
> appreciated.

It really depends upon whether the psi abilities are part of the focus
of the campaign.  For a game set in the Consulate, they probably
wouldn't be focal -- billions of others have psi, so the PCs are not
particularly special in that regard.  In the Imperium, a group of 3
psis together would in most places be quite a rarity, and they may be
(or may become) political activists trying to sway public opinion and
have unjust and discriminatory laws repealed.

Making some vague assumptions -- that the campaign is set in the
Imperium, and that the PCs are using their abilities covertly to their
own advantage -- they are almost everywhere committing criminal acts.
They may or may not ever be detected doing so.  Either way, they have
to decide how far they are willing to go to protect their secret.
There could be a serious problem if they differ greatly on this issue,
and their answers will probably set the whole tone of the campaign.

If detected, there are other options apart from simple trial and
sentencing.  They may be secretly or not-so secretly monitored by the
authorities but allowed to go about their business for the most part
if they haven't committed any gross crimes.  (The "Telzey Amberdon"
model).  They may be strongly encouraged to find and monitor other
psis or suspected psis in exchange for retaining most of their
liberty, or take part in research of some sort.  They may wish to go
somewhere less unfriendly to psi, or just to somewhere they aren't
known as such.  They may try to kill or otherwise silence their
discoverer -- not usually a good option, but one they may at least
consider.

Probably the least interesting option (for me) would be being forced
to join some secret organization and do what you're told or else.
Blech.  I list this one especially because, I've been in an otherwise
good game that went that way, and it went rapidly downhill from there.
A better breeding ground for revolt against oppression I've never
seen -- and I don't just mean the characters, I mean the *players*.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 16:35:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May  9 15:35:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Serial Killers (was: Hasty words)
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1f79d$e24603d0$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <B90047A7.5A94F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/9/02 2:10 PM, Mike West at mjwest@caddocourt.com wrote:

> 
> That's not what I said.  I said that people *who would be serial killers*
> won't have the resources, not people in general.

Why not?  A serial killer might be member of a ship's crew.  Plenty of
opportunity to travel.  There's no reason a serial killer couldn't occupy
any position in society, many of which allow one to travel.  He might even
be drawn to occupations which allow for extensive travel to facilitate his
'needs'.  It seems to me that if anything, the openness of the Imperium make
it easier for a serial killer to practice his avocation.
> 
> Almost all of the people who have the resources to world-hop have better,
> more profitable things to do than be a serial killer.  Almost all serial
> killers (again, except PCs and nobles) will not have the resources to
> world-hop.

You are assuming that people choose to become serial killers, hardly
consistent with what we know about them.  I don't think they do it because
the have something better to do.  We are talking about sick people.  A
wealthy noble could just as easily be a serial killer (Theories that Jack
the ripper was Prince Albert spring to mind).
> 
> Aside from that, assuming reasonable planning, it should be quite possible
> for someone to commit a murder (or even a group murder) and flee to another
> planet.  It is much, much more difficult to have a pattern of murder and
> freely move between planets.  Unless you have a ship.  And the only people
> I can think of that would have a ship and do something as unprofitable as
> serial killing are PCs and nobles.

Again, you assume the killer acts by 'choice', with a notion of 'profit'.  I
don't think that fits the patter of the true serial killer.  I don't think
John Wayne Gacy or Jeffery Daumer or others like them did it because they
had nothing better to do.

How is something like this dealt with in the Imperium?  Do the planets just
have to sort it out for themselves.  Does the criminal get away with it
forever.

Another class of criminal that comes to mind is large scale organized crime.
With resources and cash, they can commit mayhem and then move on to the next
world.

In both of these cases, it seems to me that there is some Imperial interest
in dealing with these crimes.  Perhaps not.  I'd be curious to hear people
opinions.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 16:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu May  9 15:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Logistics
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020509162233.00a3fae0@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <3CDAD703.77CB3DB1@mail.cswnet.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20020509162233.00a3fae0@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020510083704.B12385@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
>    According to one book I have on space travel, it takes roughly 4
> kilograms of material using a roughly 90% effecient recycling system
> for water - to maintain a human in space.

Per day, I guess based on your figures below.  This would assume no
air recycling, just CO2 removal.  It also seems to assume no waste
matter recycling into food products.


>  This works out to roughly 7 people's worth of material for 1 year
> per displacement ton (using GURPS rules).

It also assumes that the ship never does any 'wilderness refuelling',
from which you would obtain copious quantities of water and air --
far more than the crew would use between jumps.


>  This does not include materials used for maintenance or wartime
> expendables.

Indeed, these would be the main constraints on endurance at high tech
levels.  Fusion fuel is everywhere, likewise for water and oxygen.
Food can be created from waste and energy, either by biological
processes (at our tech level) or technological (at Imperial tech
levels).  Any starship that can do wilderness refuelling and has
reasonable food production ability can support its crew indefinitely,
until things break down through lack of maintenance.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 16:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  9 15:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OT request for help - need story identified
Message-ID: <16e.d643ccd.2a0c5540@aol.com>

Perry wrote:


 >Okay, I'm going to try to call on the collective knowledge of the TML
 >to help out a friend of mine.  She's trying to identify a story that
 >was either edited or written by Asimov.  Her description of the story
 >follows.  Can anyone help us ID this story?
<snip>

It wasn't Asimov, but Ted Reynolds.  The story is called "Can These Bones
Live?"  Published in Analog.  I read it in an anthology called _Fifty 
Years of the Best Science Fiction from Analog_ which I got in the early
80s (I didn't like that story myself, but everyone's taste is different).


Hope this Helps.  Bet someone beat me to the punch.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 16:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu May  9 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <B9000D0B.5A8EC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEMBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CDBA466.23262.5D2B45@localhost>

On 9 May 2002 at 11:25, Tod Glenn wrote:

> This addresses my second question.  What happens when a character commits a
> heinous crime on planet, and then crosses over the extrality line?

IMTU the local authorities would get to start extradition proceedures 
with the Imperial authorities. If the person in question was a direct 
Imperial subject (IMTU that means someone in the Imperial services or 
working directly for the Emperor on an Arch-duke - the holder of a 
Warrant, IOW) or Imperial noble the chances of extradition are very 
low. Instead the perpetrator would be tried in an Imperial court if the 
crime were also such under Imperial law. In any case a Court of Inquiry 
would normally be set up to determine whether extradition back to the 
local authorities was appropriate. Factors taken into consideration 
would include: whether or not the offender knew the act was a crime 
locally before he committed it, whether the crime is also a crime in 
Imperial law and how serious the penalty.

The most common result is that the person will be returned if the crime 
is also a crime under Imperial law and the noble in charge of the 
starport doesn't think the local punishment is way out of line 
(unlikely, seeing as most nobles in these posts will be local). If it's 
not such a crime, the perp will probably be told to get off-world 
immediately and also informed that if he returns the locals can have 
him.

IMTU in order to guarantee that trouble-makers who flee the world can't 
wait until the statute of limitations (or local equivilent) kicks in 
and then return many worlds have very long periods before serious 
crimes 'expire', and it's not uncommon on high-law worlds for even 
minor crimes to never expire.

Of course if it was a henious crime by anyone's standards even if the 
perp does get off-world he'll be running from the extradition 'list', 
so he'll be needing to find a nice low-law world (but not too low or 
the bounty hunters will get him) well away from the X-boat routes.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 16:52:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu May  9 15:52:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
In-Reply-To: <3CDB9ECF.18219.4753CA@localhost>
References: <200205091642.FWT00412@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <3CDB9ECF.18219.4753CA@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020510085136.C12385@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
[...contingency planning...]
> It's amazing the groups that leap up and down about 'wasting time'
> and 'let's get on with it' when I (as a player), raise the idea.

Ick!  Pet peeve!  Count me in with them!

I sat through 2 years of Shadowrun games in which about 50% of the
time was spent planning, and about 40% in the combat or similarly
adverse situations for which the plans were made.  I can tolerate
playing through interminable combat, but interminable planning is far
too similar to real-life work meetings for my liking.

Abstraction is the key, as I found in future games.  If the characters
have to do contingency plans, then allocate them some *in-game* time
to do it, give a rough outline of thought processes in at most a few
minutes of real time, and get on with it.

If my character uses Computer Programming skill, you don't expect me
to spend 2 hours whipping up a software architecture.  So don't expect
me to spend hours contingency planning when my character uses Tactics
skill.

Besides, all of my characters for which such plans are necessary are
almost always *far* better planners than I personally am -- so doing
their planning at the player level is severely detrimental to both
chances of success and suspension of disbelief.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 16:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Thu May  9 15:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Players that give you the sh*ts
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17ADB@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

I've been gaming in a group now for about 4 years, which in your late 20's
is no mean achievement, but I came within a whisker this week in walking
away for good. My threshold for another player came dangerous close to
lapsing after yet another heated argument. 

Other elements of fun include:

They play characters maxed to the hilt. No Minning, just maxing. They always
appear to have very high stats and a remarkable complement of abilities (we
don't play any points systems so there are no limitations there). And when
you're a player that likes to play the hand they are dealt, such as
incredibly feeble abilities and a complete dearth of skills or powers, that
can kind of be frustrating. 

They always **** over characters in game, by continuously playing characters
that have their own hidden mandate. This leads to the with-holding or
selective application of aid (think the non healing D&D cleric) and
information.

They shout out 'bored' and make their displease felt if they have not been
included in current activities for more than five minutes. 

They rarely take other players suggestions on-board, often dismissing other
opinions or ideas out of hand. Worst of all if they agree with the idea then
it is greeted with a 'duh - of course we'll do that'. 

But most of all they yell. They may defend they are being 'in character' but
if every character they have ever played likes to argue vehemently you just
gotta thing its more their personality rather than any persona on paper. 

Sigh. 

The other players convinced me to stay. But at the same time, because of the
arguments, they elected them 'Leader' for the current game we are playing.
So I can either play and take it or walk and not. The sad thing is that they
will never leave.  I was the last to join the group, they are all close
friends, and 'they' are married to another player.

What about y'all out there? I am sure I am not the only one who has
encountered Players that, while they might be very nice people outside of a
game, become horrible monsters in game. 

Any suggestions? 


Mikey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 17:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu May  9 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
References: <20020509222510.BC17727A20@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CDB0193.FD094075@ameritech.net>

> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
> From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
> Date: 09 May 2002 13:31:16 -0600
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> writes:
> >
> > Many subscribe to the digest, where it is impossible to kill
> > unwanted threads.  (This is the single reason why I do NOT use the
> > digest.)
> 
> This is why digests are dumb.  

Mr Uhl,

I don't take kindly to being lectured on email use by somebody
who is consistently the worst offender against the established
etiquette of the list. Do you ever post ON topic? I would kill 
file you but I happen to be among the 50% of the readers of this
list who receive the digest. 

So consider this a virtual plonk.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 17:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mitch Haggman)
Date: Thu May  9 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player...
In-Reply-To: <3CDA192D.10202@yarranet.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0205091602300.10041-100000@sephiroth.byte-me.org>

> Where in Australia did you find this huge cache?
> (For my own sanity I hope that it hasn't been sitting under my nose all 
> this time.)

	The sunny sunny far north: Cairns, QLD.  Home of absolutely NO 
gamers, hence my absurd joy at finding any games at all.  To be fair, I 
did find a webpage for a group of highschool kids playing D&D, but that's 
not exactly my scene.

	To everyone else who replied, thanks for all the info.  I've 
already read Book 1 and Book 4, and am slowly sifting through everything 
else.  I could probably live my life quite well without the starship 
rules, but I'm aching for the game setting info that I fear is hiding 
somewhere in book two or three.

	-Mitch

-- 
"By god, I wish these calculations had been executed by steam."
	-Charles Babbage, 1821


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 17:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  9 16:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player...
Message-ID: <20020509.191434.-319743.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Or, if you want to be a completist, you can try eBay.  I have no 
> idea
> what shipping costs to your location are, but Books 2 and 3 pop up 
> often
> and can be had very cheap.

The Traveller Trader has a copy of Book 3 for cheap.

http://www.travellertrader.com/gdw.shtml


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 17:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu May  9 16:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <3CDB0193.FD094075@ameritech.net>
References: <20020509222510.BC17727A20@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3CDB0193.FD094075@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <m37kmcgb6o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
>
> I would kill file you but I happen to be among the 50% of the
> readers of this list who receive the digest.
> 
> So consider this a virtual plonk.

I am not so handicapped.  Draw the obvious conclusion...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christ is Risen!  Truly He is Risen!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 17:22:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  9 16:22:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OT request for help - need story identified
Message-ID: <20020509.191434.-319743.1.Knightsky@juno.com>

On Thu, 9 May 2002 18:42:08 EDT Ludowick@aol.com writes:
> 
> Perry wrote:
> 
> 
>  >Okay, I'm going to try to call on the collective knowledge of the 
>  >TML to help out a friend of mine.  She's trying to identify a story
that
>  >was either edited or written by Asimov.  Her description of the story
>  >follows.  Can anyone help us ID this story?
> <snip>
> 
> It wasn't Asimov, but Ted Reynolds.  The story is called "Can These
Bones
> Live?"  Published in Analog.  I read it in an anthology called _Fifty 
> Years of the Best Science Fiction from Analog_ which I got in the early
> 80s (I didn't like that story myself, but everyone's taste is
different).
> 
> Hope this Helps.  Bet someone beat me to the punch.
 
Many thanks.  I'll pass this on to my friend, she'll definately
appreciate it.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 17:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu May  9 16:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <3CDAEF33.1000909@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CDBAD6C.13151.806BFC@localhost>

On 9 May 2002 at 14:50, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Dragging it back to more plausible crimes; I'd expect confidence games 
> to blossom hugely in the Imperium.
> 
> You have close contact for weeks at a time in transit to butter up your 
> mark.
> 
> Land on their system, fleece the mark and as many of their friends
> as you can get away with, and vanish off planet again, to start the
> cycle anew. 

And players wonder why the local yokels on many worlds are suspicious 
of smooth talking off-worlders.

> There is, iirc, one russian who may have killed a huge number of people 
> worldwide while he was a seemingly perfectly stable member of a 
> freighter crew.

I'm sure he was a perfectly stable member of the crew, as long as he 
got to off someone with reasonable regularity. not someone you'd want 
to be stranded with out in the wops of some low-tech world with, 
though.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 17:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Thu May  9 16:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Munchkins et al.
In-Reply-To: <20020509031613.7067A27A21@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205100114240.32077-100000@ask.diku.dk>

John T. Kwon writes:

>I've had several conversations about "munchkins" recently.  I
>have often wondered why many people in the RU who have made a
>big difference, or had great adventures, are often fairly
>ordinary, except perhaps for personal drive or intellect.
>
>I was reminded of Reilly, "Ace of Spies", and came across
>this link today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
>dyn/articles/A55741-2002May8.html
>
>Yes, he had to roll a new character.  But what was it that
>made him an "ace" rather than a "munchkin"?  I would submit
>that he was not a superhero endowed with Gun Combat-9.

Luck, or chance, or whatever you want to call it. The main difference
between real life heroes and fictional heroes is that for every Reilly you
hear about there were an unknown, but probably large, number of Reilly
wannabes who got clobbered the first or second or third time they did
something risky. We just seldom or never hear of them, so we forget
they're there. For every real life hero that survives against odds of ten
to one there were nine who tried the same and failed.

Which is why roleplaying by truly realistic rules sucks like an industrial
strength vacuum cleaner ;-).

Mind you, I'm not saying real life heroes aren't often exceptional people.
If you got to take chances, someone whose skills make those chances ten to
one will have the advantage over someone whose skills make the same chances
a hundred to one.

Fictional heroes, of course, have the advantage that when they take ten to
one chances, the author cheats.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 17:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  9 16:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player...
Message-ID: <20020509.192331.-319743.3.Knightsky@juno.com>

> 	To everyone else who replied, thanks for all the info.  I've 
> already read Book 1 and Book 4, and am slowly sifting through 
> everything else.  I could probably live my life quite well without the
starship 
> rules, but I'm aching for the game setting info that I fear is 
> hiding somewhere in book two or three.

Actually, the original books didn't really have any campaign setting
(that would show up later in the Adventures and Supplements).  Still, I
would recommend getting Books 2-3, as they can be had (usually) for
cheap.

Other recommendations, if you can find them, are Supplements 3 (The
Spinward Marches, campaign setting), Supplement 4 (Citizens of the
Imperium, expanded careers for character generation), Supplement 6 (76
Patrons, lots of adventure ideas), and Supplements 8 & 11 (Library Data,
parts 1 & 2, lots of good camapign info there)

                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 17:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu May  9 16:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Serial Killers (was: Hasty words)
References: <B90047A7.5A94F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CDB05F5.8030607@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> How is something like this dealt with in the Imperium?  Do the planets just
> have to sort it out for themselves.  Does the criminal get away with it
> forever.

This will be *hard* to solve, particularly if there isn't a lot of 
inter-agency cooperation. A criminal can fairly easily outrun his or her 
criminal record in the Imperium.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, the person charged with the Green 
River Killings got away with it for decades due to two fators: the 
inexperience of the police agency involved, and the low priority placed 
on his victims.

Missing persons cases in general get low priority, simply because the 
large majority of missing persons are voluntarily missing, and when the 
persons involved are prostitutes and drug addicts, well, maybe the 
paperwork will get properly filed or not...

> Another class of criminal that comes to mind is large scale organized crime.
> With resources and cash, they can commit mayhem and then move on to the next
> world.

Why move on? If you're that organized, just expand. Pay off the right 
people and you don't have to move along.

Now an organized gang of thieves, a' la 'Ocean's Eleven'...there you 
have a hit 'n run model.

> In both of these cases, it seems to me that there is some Imperial interest
> in dealing with these crimes.  Perhaps not.  I'd be curious to hear people
> opinions.

In the case of multiworld organized crime, it will certainly fall under 
Fed^h^h^h Imperial jurisdiction...it interferes with interstellar trade, 
and any organized crime group will gravitate towards starports anyway, 
for the same reason Willie Sutton hit banks...that's where the money is.

A Serial killer...I'd expect the IMOJ would lend their resources to 
local agencies who needed information and assistance. The hard part is 
seeing people dying at 6 months to 2 year intervals as a 'serial' event.

Some serial killers (as opposed to spree killers) kill slowly, over 
years and years, sometimes with years between events.

If that someone is travelling from world to world doing it at that rate, 
the murders may never be linked.

That's why I suspect that a large portion of IMOJ's functioning may be 
more along the lines of Interpol; who solve most of their cases with 
filing cabinets than guns...an interagency repository of data more than 
anything else, probably organized in regions no more than a few 
subsectors in size. (anything else and the time lagin acquiring, 
collating and dealing with information would be huge, though I suspect 
there are IMOJ database updates going out with the X-boats.

Larger agencies would have as up-to-date databases as they could 
afford...it might make it harder for criminals to blend right on in.

Still, tracking a serial killer across three county jurisdictions in the 
US has proven quite difficult to do; I'd imagine that doing it across 
three subsectors would be damn near impossible.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 17:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu May  9 16:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Serial Killers (was: Hasty words)
In-Reply-To: <B90047A7.5A94F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <000b01c1f79d$e24603d0$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <3CDBAFF2.7334.8A4622@localhost>

On 9 May 2002 at 15:35, Tod Glenn wrote:

> Again, you assume the killer acts by 'choice', with a notion of 'profit'.  I
> don't think that fits the patter of the true serial killer.  I don't think
> John Wayne Gacy or Jeffery Daumer or others like them did it because they
> had nothing better to do.
> 
> How is something like this dealt with in the Imperium?  Do the planets just
> have to sort it out for themselves.  Does the criminal get away with it
> forever.

As a mentioned earlier, IMTU the suspects would end up on a 'wanted' 
list, with particulars of what they're wanted for. Sooner or later 
unless they keep moving onwards and never move back the way they came, 
or stop moving it'll catch up with them. As for the Imperium - serial 
killers don't usually affect rade or the security of the Imperium, so 
it seldom does anything directly about them. However the Imperium also 
reads the List, and as murder is a crime in Imperial juristictions 
there's a good chance if the STA on a world notices you and you're on 
the List they'll extradite you.
 
> Another class of criminal that comes to mind is large scale organized
> crime. With resources and cash, they can commit mayhem and then move
> on to the next world. 

Now this will effect trade, and could also be counted as a form of 
attack on the world - the sort of thing they joined the Imperium for 
protection from. Therefore the Imperium would be very interested in 
dealing with the likes of these. Of course so would the megacorps (they 
don't like competition), so there would be a lot of effort spent in 
tracking down these operations and wiping them out. Should you be into 
this sort of thing very substantial kickbacks to some influential and 
bent nobles and megacorp board memebers would be essential.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu May  9 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
In-Reply-To: <20020510085136.C12385@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CDB9ECF.18219.4753CA@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CDBB147.932.8F7A02@localhost>

On 10 May 2002 at 8:51, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> [...contingency planning...]
> > It's amazing the groups that leap up and down about 'wasting time'
> > and 'let's get on with it' when I (as a player), raise the idea.
> 
> Ick!  Pet peeve!  Count me in with them!
> 
> I sat through 2 years of Shadowrun games in which about 50% of the
> time was spent planning, and about 40% in the combat or similarly
> adverse situations for which the plans were made.  I can tolerate
> playing through interminable combat, but interminable planning is far
> too similar to real-life work meetings for my liking.

Ah, but I never meant that much planning. I meant just having a 
contingency plan, any contingency plan. Something like "If it all turns 
to custard, we'll flee in different directions and re-group and the 
lightning blasted oak we passed a few miles back." That's all.

IME many party kills occur because there's no plan for a retreat, so no-
one is willing to because they think (probably correctly) that when 
they flee in chaos they'll be wiped out in detail. So instead they keep 
advancing against overwhelming force and get wiped out en masse.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 17:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  9 16:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Players that give you the sh*ts
Message-ID: <20020509.163829.-114487.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Mikey

On Fri, 10 May 2002 08:36:19 +1000 "Hughes, Michael"
<Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au> writes:
> 
> I've been gaming in a group now for about 4 years, which in your  late
20's
> is no mean achievement, but I came within a whisker this week in 
walking
> away for good. 
> 
> But most of all they yell. 
> 
> The other players convinced me to stay. 
> 
> What about y'all out there? 
> 
> Any suggestions? 

I have a question:

Do you (and for that matter all the TML), do you rotate the Ref's
position within the group, among the "able" ref's?
Or is there only one ref all the time?
It seems to me that that player needs a dose of his/her own medicine. Let
him/her draw up a one night scenario and you yell when he/she ref's. 

Just an opinion of course, but that player needs to open his/her eyes ...

Turokan

..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 17:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Thu May  9 16:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: ISSDEC: May Competition
References: <3CDAD703.77CB3DB1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <002901c1f7b3$e1176ce0$d1317b83@housing.res.kent.edu>

<quote>

If anyone else has any ideas on endurance feel free to share them
with the group...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
"I don't feel Tardy"

</quote>

According to Beltstrike's Belter's Handbook pg. 3

"150 person-weeks of life support supplies take up one ton of cargo space
and cost Cr150,000."

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 17:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Thu May  9 16:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] searching for old magazine articles
In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E011406BC@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com> from "Donald McKinney" at May 09, 2002 10:48:38 AM
Message-ID: <200205092255.g49MtmM08779@localhost.uia.net>

> I'm searching for adventure scenarios set in the Spinward
> Marches that appeared in numerous old magazines.
 
Well, since I'm writing this rpg magazine index program, it's
fairly easy to do a quick search. According to the program,
here are some magazine & fanzine articles which relate to the
spinward marches (i did a search on "marches" or "spinmar",
searching just the traveller-specific zines... hence dragon,
white dwarf, different worlds, and othersuch zines aren't
represented here):

Alien Star:
AS-001: the imperium hit (adventure, rapp's world/querion/spinward marches)
AS-002: night spiral (adventure, dawnworld/district 268/spinward marches)
AS-004: hiest (adventure, ghandi/lanth/spinward marches)
AS-004: the artrix bust (adventure, la'belle/lanth/spinward marches)
AS-004: the ghandi file (ghandi/lanth/spinward marches, world overview)
AS-004: zuchai crystals (scenario, ghandi/lanth/spinward marches)

Between Worlds:
BW-001: silent cargo (scenario, feri/regina/spinward marches)
BW-002: the gazaris (scenario, tacaxeb/rhylanor/spinward marches)
BW-002: the sword of phlume (scenario, phlume/vilis/spinward marches)
BW-004: inheritance (scenario, boughene/regina/spinward marches)
BW-004: rescue from the selai (scenario, ucella/five sisters/spinward marches)
BW-005: doom of the blue planet (scenario, d'mara/trin's veil/spinward marches)

Challenge:
Ch-057: jewell situation (megatraveller adventure, jewell/spinward marches)
Ch-057: shellgame (megatraveller adventure, overnale/spinward marches)
Ch-061: equalizer project (megatraveller, aramax/spinward marches)
Ch-068: science marches on (inventions for space 1889)

Imperial News Service:
INS-002: pysadi/aramas/spinward marches (world overview)

Jour. Travellers Aid Society:
JT-002: victoria (world overview, lanth/spinward marches)
JT-009: battle fleets of the marches

Jumpspace/Voyages:
JV-015: recruiting for paradise (megatraveller adventure, roup/regina/spinmar)

MegaTraveller Journal:
MJ-001: the wardn enigma (adventure in the spinward marches)

Traveller Chronicle:
TC-012: artifact (adventure, spinward marches)

Traveller Digest:
TD-015: the glisten system (spinward marches)
TD-020: the hiawatha gambit (megatraveller adventure, spinward marches)
TD-021: one last stop (adventure, spinward marches, ancients)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 18:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Thu May  9 17:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law (Was: Hasty words)
In-Reply-To: <20020508172104.94D34279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205100153430.32077-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Charles (CHam628781@aol.com) writes:

>In a message dated 08/05/02 02:42:28 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
><Quote>
>My suggestion was "The unsanctioned termination of a sapient being". The
>'unsanctioned' bit gave the Imperium it's wiggle room, since the Imperium
>reserves the right to decide who is and isn't qualified to sanction
>terminations (basically any government recognized by the Imperium).
>
></Quote>
>
>One problem I have with the idea of Imperial Law is universality. I think we
>would all agree that any Imperium wide legal code must be applicable anywhere
>and to any individual or company.

I don't see how that would necessarily be the case.

>In this however lies the seeds of the destruction of any concept of
>Imperial Law since, I would contend, in a society such as the Imperium
>universal definitions of pretty much anything is impossible.

You just make it broad enough and leave it to the various nobles and judges
to interpret it. It's only a problem if you expect absolute justice.

>Let's take murder as our example because the root problem of when is a
>killing murder also shows up the problems in things such as property law. The
>problem is of course defining whether a being can be offered the protection
>of law. The above example of a potential definition of murder shows the
>problem well because on the surface it seems reasonable but on examination is
>shown to be unworkable.
>
>We cannot use "sapience" as a definition of those protected by law for a
>number of reasons. Sapience does not apply to all members of a species at all
>times.

Not a problem. I was assuming (no doubt influenced by the unwarranted
assumption that everybody else also reads H. Beam Piper ;-) that the
Imperium would define what species were considered sapient ("Talk and
build fires" ;-) and that any member of such a species, sapient or not,
would be protected.

There is some evidence to support that. There is a quote somewhere where
Cleon I's defines those beings enjoying protected status in the Imperium.
I forget the exact words, but the main purpose is to limit that protection
to sapient _lifeforms_. Thus a self-aware machine is not protected because
it is not a lifeform. We also know that the Imperium consider Chirpers semi-
sapient and entitled to protection under the law, much to the resentment
of the people of Vanejen (_RSG_).

>It is conceivable that an individual may be born decerebrate and thus
>never achieve sapience. They would not be protected by law. Furthermore some
>species may have non-sapient parts of their life-cycle (Hivers, although the
>example may not be correct, spring to mind) and are therefore not protected
>by law at certain times of their life.

This is only a problem if you think they ought to be protected. The example
you use with the Hiver grubs does indeed not apply: even if they were to be
considered sapient, the eating of them would just be deemed to be sanctioned.
(Does that mean that I think the Imperium will accept the practice of
anthropophagy? Maybe, maybe not. It really depends on the feelings of past
emperors. I can see arguments either way. I'd propably go with letting it
depend on the local subsector duke, in order to leave it up to the
individual GMs, but I can easily see Cleon I saying "No way! That's
disgusting!" and making it stick. No one says emperors has to be 100%
consistent, especially if the group they offed is a really small
minority).

Incidentally, if Hiver grubs are not considered sapient, there's no problem
either.

>We can apparently escape from this dilemma by changing the wording of the
>"sapient" definition of murder to something like "The unsanctioned
>termination of any member of a sapient species" but we then run into a new
>one. Low commitment (LK) parenting strategies (such as those used by the
>Hiver) involve the abandonment of young to the mercy of the wilderness. Does
>the Imperium consider the killing of Hiver young murder or no crime at all?

No crime. Sanctioned.

>If it takes the sapient species route it must condemn such killings as murder
>and consider any Hiver who drops spawn in an Imperial jurisdiction at least
>guilty of child endangerment.

'Child endangerment'? What makes you think the Imperium would have the
concept of child endangerment at all?

>Of course the Imperium can easily get round the Hiver problem by exempting
>them from at least part of the law on murder. However in doing so it presents
>itself with new problems. Having set the precedent in the case of Hivers how
>does it apply that precedent to other species

On a case by case basis.

>...and when do Hiver young gain the protection of law?

When it joins a hive.

>Of course the most acute problem facing any definition of murder that uses
>the term "sapient" is defining exactly what is meant by that term.

It's only a problem if the Emperor consider it a problem.

>The definition must be both wide enough to cover all sapient species
>within the Imperium...

just the ones the Imperium doesn't care to antagonize. ;-)

>...and narrow enough not to include faux sapients.

What is a faux sapient?

>Furthermore any definition must be simple enough to be applicable on some
>backwater with limited access to high tech equipment and must be
>applicable only after a limited encounter with a new species.

Only if the Emperor thinks that is important.

>I can't think of such a definition and there is evidence from canon that
>the Imperium can't either.*

I'd be interested in hearing that evidence.

>If the Imperium cannot universally define murder, and it is my contention
>that it can't,

I see no problem with the one I've offered. Granted it is so vague that it
requires interpretation, but that's what Imperial nobles are for.

>...then it is deep trouble because all law must be based on the
>ability to define who or what is protected.

Ask your friendly neighborhood noble and he'll tell you.

>...With no universal definition of murder there can be no universal
>definition of property...

That one went right over my head. I don't see it and I don't see the need
for a universal definition of property for that matter.

>...and I leave it to your imagination where that might lead.

Please elucidate.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------------------
        'There was a man,'  remarked Captain Eliot, 'who was sentenced
    to death for stealing a horse from a common. He said to the judge,
    that  he  thought it hard to be hanged for stealing a horse from a
    common  and  the  judge  answered,  "You  are not to be hanged for
    stealing  a  horse  from  a common,  but that others may not steal
    horses from commons." '
        'And do you find,' asked Stephen, 'that in fact horses are not
    daily stolen from commons? You do not!'

                        --- "The Mauritius Command" by Patrick O'Brian



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 19:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu May  9 18:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
Message-ID: <200205100100.FXO05223@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" rants 
<snip his conversation with friends>

Swordy, I should leave you with some Emerson.  Maybe there 
should be more thinkers on the list, and there are some - but 
there's always going to be some chaff.

"Beware when great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration
has broken out in a great city, and no man knows when it
will end.
There is not a piece of science but its flank may be turned
tomorrow; there is not any literary reputation, not the
so-called eternal names of fame, that may not be revised and
condemned. The very hopes of man, the thoughts of his heart,
the religion of nations, the manners and morals of mankind
are all at the mercy of a new generalization."

Tell your friends to step up to the plate and start posting.  
I have definitely done my share of OT, or less than valuable 
posting - but - I have posted some things that I thought were 
worthwhile.  And I haven't been on the list for more than a 
few months.  I don't view myself as a Lord of Canon, and I'm 
sure that no one other than Loren could truly lay claim to 
that title.  Interestingly, if you follow the example of the 
Great Old Ones (like Loren), and publish, and publish, and 
publish maybe you'll leave us with a new generalization (a 
new canon!).


________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 19:15:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu May  9 18:15:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
Message-ID: <200205100114.FXO06784@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" says
<on the subject of contingency plans>
>It's amazing the groups that leap up and down about 'wasting 
>time' and 'let's get on with it' when I (as a player), raise 
>the idea.
>

My introduction to what a contingency plan can do for you was 
the concept of rally points.  Even if you aren't in the Army, 
consider the Traveller party bedding down for the night in 
the woods.  Sure, they'll take turns on guard.  But if they 
get bounced in their sleeping bags, and have to run for it, 
do they have any idea where they'll regroup in the dark?
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 19:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu May  9 18:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Players that give you the sh*ts
Message-ID: <200205100121.FXQ00157@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hughes, Michael" says
>I've been gaming in a group now for about 4 years, which in 
>your late 20's is no mean achievement, but I came within a 
>whisker this week in walking away for good. My threshold for 
>another player came dangerous close to lapsing after yet 
>another heated argument. 
>

In 1980, no less, I wrote a paper for a sociology class on 
why people play roleplaying games.  Why do most people tend 
to roll or create or play the same kinds of characters?  
Everyone has a gestalt image - and most people can't help but 
bring that out when they play.  It is a rare thing for 
someone (especially new players) to play anything except the 
way they wish they were.

More than the fantasy he-man, the other irrepresible and 
undesireabe personality traits that come out have bothered 
me.  Ever see people who in real life claim a moral high 
ground consistently butcher the innocent and helpless in 
roleplaying?  Not once, but consistently?  Makes you wonder.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 19:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  9 18:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #502 - 26 msgs
Message-ID: <3e.1dfadcc3.2a0c7ba0@aol.com>

>As in why Vacc as the abbreviation when the word is
>vacuum (double u not double c)? Sorry if this has been
>raised elsewhere and dealt with. I've been lurking off
>and on for a while and searched for any threads
>dealing with this to no avail.

Like most of the terminology, Marc chose it. I suspect he pulled it from some 
book he liked, or perhaps just because it looked better than vac suit. Does 
there need to be a reason other than that?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 19:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May  9 18:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Players that give you the sh*ts
In-Reply-To: <200205100121.FXQ00157@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9007084.5A98C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/9/02 6:21 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> In 1980, no less, I wrote a paper for a sociology class on
> why people play roleplaying games.  Why do most people tend
> to roll or create or play the same kinds of characters?
> Everyone has a gestalt image - and most people can't help but
> bring that out when they play.  It is a rare thing for
> someone (especially new players) to play anything except the
> way they wish they were.
> 
> More than the fantasy he-man, the other irrepresible and
> undesireabe personality traits that come out have bothered
> me.  Ever see people who in real life claim a moral high
> ground consistently butcher the innocent and helpless in
> roleplaying?  Not once, but consistently?  Makes you wonder.

Interesting.  I wonder what that says about me.  I like a wide range of
characters, some smart, others simple, some manipulative, some wild and
gregarious.  Of course I mostly run games, rather than play.  Does that mean
GMs have a tendency towards split personalities?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 19:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May  9 18:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OT Wargaming
Message-ID: <cb.21ea196f.2a0c7c91@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/9/2002 12:23:23 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tml-request@travellercentral.com writes:


>A question for all you wargaming guru's out there. 
>What is the best way to get involved in wargaming?  I
>am thinking it might be a fun thing to do, but I would
>like to find out before I spend too much money.  So
>where do I start?

Miniatures wargaming? Find a group that already plays and ask to join. People 
are so happy to have players, often times you can go years before being 
required to actually paint anything.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 19:34:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu May  9 18:34:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: You say Vac, I say Vacc
Message-ID: <200205100133.FXQ01380@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

GDWGAMES writes
>Does there need to be a reason other than that?
>

LKW is a Bokononist!
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 19:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May  9 18:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] VACC suit
Message-ID: <B90071B2.5A991%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

I'm still thinking about the term VACC suit as an acronym.  Have we gotten
anywhere?

Varied Atmosphere [something] Clothing?

The SCUBA analogy seems appropriate.  Isn't it amazing how players will
thoughtfully create explanations for what was probably just a typo. :)
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 19:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu May  9 18:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Players that give you the sh*ts
Message-ID: <200205100137.FXQ01851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Interesting.  I wonder what that says about me.  I like a 
>wide range of characters, some smart, others simple, some 
>manipulative, some wild and gregarious.  Of course I mostly 
>run games, rather than play.  Does that mean GMs have a 
>tendency towards split personalities?
>

It would have been more revealing to know either what kind of 
characters you played in the first few years of gaming, or to 
observe any consistency across the different types of 
characters.

I had a long time reputation for killing people in gaming - 
not for fun, or for money, but because it needed doing.  It 
got so bad over time that many times, if the other players 
thought that they had done something they wouldn't be able to 
explain to me, they shot me out of hand.

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 19:49:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu May  9 18:49:18 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Wargaming
Message-ID: <F244mllgYBr4BvRnfvc0000200b@hotmail.com>

From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>

     "A question for all you wargaming guru's out there.  What is the best 
way to get involved in wargaming?"


Mr. Walker,

     Phew...  Where to begin...  It's sort of like asking someone how to 
begin READING, there's just so many ways to go about it.
     Someone on the List may have suggested this already, but have you 
checked out any local college/university student unions?  Or your FLAGS?  
Sitting down and playing a game or four would be a great idea, sort of like 
taking a test drive.

     "I am thinking it might be a fun thing to do, but I would like to find 
out before I spend too much money.  So where do I start?"

     Hmmm, there are three VERY broad wargaming catagories; maps, minis, and 
computer.  Map games are "usually", but not always, hex based with various 
chits representing units.  Minis involve pushing around lumps of lead or 
polystyrene across a diorama.  Computer games you can see on store shelves.
     Another way to break games down is whether they are FTF (face to face), 
solitaire, or both.  Finding opponents, and TIME, is tough, so lots of folks 
look for solitaire, PBM, or PBeM capability in any game.
     Is there any particular historical era you enjoy?  Napoleon?  WW2?  
Ancients?  Any type of combat that peaks your interest?  Tanks?  Naval?  
Aircraft?  Looking for a topic you already have an interest in is a good way 
to start.  ForEx:  you're on a Traveller list, so tackle some Traveller 
wargames.  Snapshot or Mayday are relatively simple.  Don't jump into a 
monster game right off, ala 5FW or I:E.
     There were several Microgames published in the early 80's that are 
perfect "starter" games.  They may still be kicking around your FLAGS 
bargain bins or on eBay.  SJ Games still publishes one called Ogre/GEV.  
It's a nifty little number involving "near future" (more like fantastic) 
armored warfare.  I taught it to my 8 y.o. nephew, Caractacus, last summer.  
He enjoyed it and picked it up quite readily.
     Hope all this blather helps.  Finding a gaming group would still be 
your best bet.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 19:55:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ravat Melster)
Date: Thu May  9 18:55:18 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Players that give you the sh*ts
In-Reply-To: <200205100121.FXQ00157@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020510015405.97610.qmail@web20203.mail.yahoo.com>

Hello All - 

I have been lucky to play with two really decent
groups of role-players. Both times they were big
Traveller fans (though they did play other RPGs). Now
I associate good role-playing with Traveller. 

Playing characters that are very different from me can
be a lot of fun. Acting out the part of a foul-mouthed
grunt helped me to learn how comfortable it can become
to be vulgar. (grin) I also learned that I look hot in
camo! 

Running a computer geek character would be
unimaginative for me, since I am one. I'd get bogged
down in silly details and make the game less fun for
me and likely others, too.

So, Mr. Kwon, what does it say about a person when
they like to play a different kind of character every
game? Am I trying to "find" myself? Maybe I like
variety? I'm not being cheeky, here, just thinking out
loud. 

-Mel

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> In 1980, no less, I wrote a paper for a sociology
> class on why people play roleplaying games.  Why do
most
> people tend to roll or create or play the same kinds
of
> characters?  
> Everyone has a gestalt image - and most people can't
> help but bring that out when they play.  It is a
rare thing
> for someone (especially new players) to play
anything
> except the way they wish they were.


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 20:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu May  9 19:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <000001c1f996$6dc915b0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205081350120.24485-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020509221740.01fdf330@192.168.0.1>

At 02:21 AM 5/12/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
[snippy]
>Well..there was the episode where Spock 'mated' with Marilu Henner..

Considering how old Marilu Henner was at the time, I really don't think NBC 
would have aired that episode....

The actress was Mariette Hartley

>But
>that was back in an ice age and I don't remember her name being Debrine.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
I'm what love is all about. I've got American Teeth
and a Spanish Mouth -- Fernando (Billy Crystal)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 20:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Thu May  9 19:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law
Message-ID: <20020510022732.96422.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com>

What about crimes commited in space?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 20:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu May  9 19:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <B9000745.5A8D9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEILDNAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020509222603.0273a488@192.168.0.1>

At 11:00 AM 5/9/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 5/9/02 10:22 AM, Swordy at tml@downport.com wrote:
> > - Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML -
>Point taken an in such a fashion, I cannot help but laugh.  I Swordy
>volunteering to moderate the list?  I'd accept that.
>Tod meekly promises to be good and try to keep extraneous stuff off list.
>Tml-chat or elsewhere.
>Swordy's point is valid, and I cannot but admit to being a prime offender.
>As listmon prime, I chastise myself.  Let us all renew our vows to make the
>TML a welcoming, Traveller place.

While the sword thread did get down and dirty in details, it also was on 
topic in multiple points:

Why nobles (and other fashion plates) wear certain items, including small 
swords and magnum revolvers.

Why a cutlass is better than a katana in tight shipboard corridors.

Language drift.

Making *alien* weapons.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 20:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu May  9 19:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What makes a good Traveller adventure?
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEMBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020509223001.028583d0@192.168.0.1>

I'm about 2/3 through "March Upcountry" by David Weber and John Ringo.

Fornicating Excellent Traveller fodder.

For those who have read John Ringo's "When the Devil Dances"...take a look 
at <http://www.sluggy.com/>
See where the big mucking tank "Bun-Bun" got it's name from...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 20:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu May  9 19:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
References: <000a01c1f78e$ab5c63a0$0b01a8c0@duck> <m3d6w5gltn.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <004f01c1f7cb$a06ec400$1d9293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> > Many subscribe to the digest, where it is impossible to kill
> > unwanted threads.  (This is the single reason why I do NOT use the
> > digest.)
>

Digests are good because I can ignore dozens of messages at once.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 21:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Thu May  9 20:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020509221740.01fdf330@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000001c1f7cf$ac1c6ec0$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>

The Character Mariette Hartley played was named Zarabeth.


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 9:21 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)

At 02:21 AM 5/12/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
[snippy]
>Well..there was the episode where Spock 'mated' with Marilu Henner..

Considering how old Marilu Henner was at the time, I really don't think
NBC 
would have aired that episode....

The actress was Mariette Hartley

>But
>that was back in an ice age and I don't remember her name being
Debrine.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
I'm what love is all about. I've got American Teeth
and a Spanish Mouth -- Fernando (Billy Crystal)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 21:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Thu May  9 20:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Re: Troublesome players
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17AE6@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

I have a question:
Do you (and for that matter all the TML), do you rotate the Ref's position
within the group, among the "able" ref's?
Or is there only one ref all the time?
It seems to me that that player needs a dose of his/her own medicine. Let
him/her draw up a one night scenario and you yell when he/she ref's. 
Just an opinion of course, but that player needs to open his/her eyes ...
Turokan



Yeah we do rotate, generally taking 4-6 weeks blocks at a time to Ref.
'They' have run games, but Real Life commitments each time meant that I
wasn't really there for them (which was an added bonus at the time). 

When I ref, which is my preference, 'they' are fine. I have no real trouble
controlling the play. It's only when I am a player that all the trouble
begins - mainly because I lack the ability - gamewise- to do anything about
it (either because their character is grotesque in power or because I know
that I will ruin the scenario for everyone if I do react). 

I don't think I am the only one who gets the irrits with this. Apparently
words have been spoken before. But I am the only one that seems to take it
to heart (probably because I am not a close friend, whereas the others are).


I am not one for confrontation. To be honest emotive role-playing, where
players yell at me 'in character', gives me the creeps (hell - who does like
being yelled at?). On occasion I have had to ask them to take a step back
'cause it all seemed a bit personal. Plus the person in question is a LRP
fan, so it is I guess second nature to do so. 

So I should say something but I think that would freak me too much to do so.


The other thing is I do play wacky characters, who are typically mentally
unbalanced, because I prefer that role. They tend towards the serious type,
which does mean the situation can be exacerbated. But I never **** over the
scenario when doing so 'cause that would suck. 

I'll see how I'll feel next week.  

Mikey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 22:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu May  9 21:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law
In-Reply-To: <20020510022732.96422.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020510022732.96422.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3offoodd3.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

James Ramsay <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au> writes:
>
> What about crimes commited in space?

Fall under jurisdiction of the captain.  He falls under jurisdiction
of his port of registry.

Which could be clear across the Imperium...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Al masi qam!  Hakan qa'am!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 22:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu May  9 21:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020509222603.0273a488@192.168.0.1>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEILDNAA.tml@downport.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020509222603.0273a488@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <m3k7qcod9a.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> 
> While the sword thread did get down and dirty in details, it also was
> on topic in multiple points:

[snip]

Not only was it _on-topic_ on many points, I cannot recall a bit where
it was _off-topic_.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Krishhti Unjall!  Vertet Unjall!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 22:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu May  9 21:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Serial Killers
Message-ID: <F228XLEAA4RJI9Yb8u30001036f@hotmail.com>

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

     "As I pointed out in an earlier post, the person charged with the
Green River Killings got away with it for decades due to two fators: the
inexperience of the police agency involved, and the low priority
placed on his victims."


Mr. Johnson,

     Those two factors did contribute to the problem, but the fourth estate 
comes in for a large portion of the blame also.
     Once the local cops put their doughnuts down and realized they were 
dealing with a serial killer, the Feebs gave them a pretty good strategy to 
catch him.  The locals scoured Green River for more of his "dump" sites, 
gathered up lots of the older bodies, but left the FRESHEST dump site alone. 
  Apparently that's good odds as these feaks usually like to visit their 
trophies.  Some of the older sites had indications that they had been 
visited, visited several times in fact.
     Then the "Bubble-Headed Bleach Blonde on the News At Five" heard about 
the dump site stakeout and blithely announced his big scoop to the world.  
The Green River Freak dropped his visitation schedule as a result.  Gee, I 
hope "News at Five" won a regional Emmy for that one.
     Serial and spree killings seem to be part of the human condition.  
While several factors in the modern era have facilitated them, i.e. ease of 
movement, improved weapons, etc., it appears they've occurred throughout 
history.  I'd guess that they'd occur in the 57th century too.  (Maybe not 
the in the Consulate though...)
     Given the nature of the starport extrality line, the very delicate 
balancing act between Imperial SPA authorities and local bigwigs, and the 
superb transportation/weapons technology available, porting a serial killer 
hunt into a campaign seems made to order to give your PCs fits.  Maybe I can 
get a Red Zone out of it...


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 22:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (allensh)
Date: Thu May  9 21:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <m3k7qcod9a.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020510044848.96295.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> > 
> > While the sword thread did get down and dirty in
> details, it also was
> > on topic in multiple points:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Not only was it _on-topic_ on many points, I cannot
> recall a bit where
> it was _off-topic_.

A thread can be on topic and still be pointless, and
the sword thread was WAY pointless. Worse, I would
say, than the Great Near-C Rock Debate.

Allen


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 22:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu May  9 21:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law
References: <20020510022732.96422.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com> <m3offoodd3.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <008201c1f7de$4d672410$9307b286@Shane>

Robert wrote:
> > What about crimes commited in space?
>
> Fall under jurisdiction of the captain.  He falls under jurisdiction
> of his port of registry.
>
> Which could be clear across the Imperium...

Actually, how 'canon' is this?  (not a challenge, just asking for your
opinion)

I'm asking because this is, unsurprisingly, an issue that crops up fairly
frequently in the average Traveller game.  By the rules as you state them,
the starship in question seems to be (with respect to legal issues at least)
considered a territorial extension of the world where it was registered.
Therefore when you board a ship that was registered on Regina/Regina, you
are effectively stepping onto Regina territory, and subject to the laws and
politics of Regina.  Even if the ship in question is berthed somewhere in
the Sol system.  The mind boggles.

I've seen this same ruling used in a number of SF books, although the only
one I can clearly remember is the 'Deathworld' trilogy.  IIRC, Jason dinAlt
and his ilk made copious use of the nasty loopholes and political
complications that this convention provides.  Personally, I'm hard pressed
to see any sane interstellar government adopting this convention.  But hey,
I've never run an interstellar govt (outside of the 'Master of Orion'
series) so I'm not sure how well I've really weighed up the pros and cons.
:)
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Starship Extraterritoriality!  For Great Justice!
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 22:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Thu May  9 21:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meat
In-Reply-To: <B8FFFE6F.5A859%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205100751110.811-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Thu, 9 May 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
> Oh...That PETA.  I thought you were talking about the People for the Eating
> of Tasty Animals.
> 
> It's like my friend Ed says "I God had not wanted us to eat animals, he
> wouldn't have made them out of meat."

No, no, no. 

If animals are not to be eaten, why are the made of food?

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 23:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Thu May  9 22:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Players that give you the sh*ts
In-Reply-To: <200205100121.FXQ00157@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205100820520.811-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Thu, 9 May 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
> why people play roleplaying games.  Why do most people tend 
> to roll or create or play the same kinds of characters?  
> Everyone has a gestalt image - and most people can't help but 
> bring that out when they play.  It is a rare thing for 
> someone (especially new players) to play anything except the 
> way they wish they were.

I think you are correct, usually. I have been trying during the last 5-6
years to create "new" characters, that is, characters which are unlike my
characters before.

Usually I like to play bard types, or people who talk much and try not to
get into physical conflict. Seems like me, or my ideal...

> More than the fantasy he-man, the other irrepresible and 
> undesireabe personality traits that come out have bothered 
> me.  Ever see people who in real life claim a moral high 
> ground consistently butcher the innocent and helpless in 
> roleplaying?  Not once, but consistently?  Makes you wonder.

Well, yes. 

I begun playing in a fantasy game (Praedor, one of the very few Finnish
games currently). It is a quite grim game, with somewhat deadly combat
system. The world is a magically kept area in the middle of ancient
destructed area, where some people go to try to get something valuable
there. 

So, I made a woodsman character, who was not a nice person at all. He had
to have a reason to adventure and probably die doing it. During last
session I suddenly figured that I was very properly roleplaying him (the
system has faults and virtues, somewhat like GURPS, and I roleplayed him
being short-tempered and raunchy), but I did not like him at all and was a
bit disgusted. This made me wonder afterwards why I play a character like
him. Haven't found yet a good reason, except I thought it would be fun. (I
began to find some nice sides about him after that. They just weren't very
apparent in his upbringing.)

This was a very different from my usual characters, but it seems a
rewarding experience. I don't expect him to live very long, still.
Being short-tempered is not very healthy in a fantasy world, if you only
know how to use daggers. He loses very quickly to a skilled opponent with
a sword, and he probably doesn't know it...

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May  9 23:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Thu May  9 22:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Re: Troublesome players
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17AE6@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205100835260.811-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 10 May 2002, Hughes, Michael wrote:
> Do you (and for that matter all the TML), do you rotate the Ref's position
> within the group, among the "able" ref's?
> Or is there only one ref all the time?

I hang around with the Helsinki University RPG club. We have so many
potential players (around 30-40 active, I think) that there is little
'group' mentality. Of course eople play more with closer friends and
people wanting to play the same kind of games.

So, there is usually no group where to rotate. I keep a game which I like
to keep and play in games I like to play in. 

Of course, there are people who like to Referee more and people who like
to play more. 

Usually people wanting to play some game either pester someone to be the
gamemaster, or they prepare the game and post it to our mailing list to
get some players. Of course, usually at least some player positions are
discussed in advance... (Our system is meant to help people moving to
Helsinki to study to find players and gaming groups.)

I think we are quite lucky: there is a ample pool of people playing, so
people can find almost any game they want, and can probably find players
if no one is game mastering a game they want and they have to do it
themselves. 

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 00:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu May  9 23:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020510044848.96295.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020510044848.96295.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m33cx0o6o3.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

allensh <allensh@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> A thread can be on topic and still be pointless, and the sword
> thread was WAY pointless.  Worse, I would say, than the Great Near-C
> Rock Debate.

On what, exactly, do you base that statement?  It was a) interesting
(else it would not have lasted so long) b) relevant (it dealt with a
matter of terminology) and c) lead to useful discussions on future
melee combat.

What, praytell, do you consider `pointful'?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cristo Resucita!  En Verdad Resucita!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 01:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Fri May 10 00:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Does there need to be...?
In-Reply-To: <3e.1dfadcc3.2a0c7ba0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002301c1f7f3$1ba3d580$2f7de40c@loki>

Loren asks, "Does there need to be a reason other than that?


Tsk, tsk, tsk. How many times must you watch us dissect the absolute
minutiae? Of course it matters to some small subset of us. Each askable
question matters to its own subset of this list and the greater
Traveller community.

Now this one matters because...well it doesn't but I thought long enough
about the question to provide an answer anyway and I've been in super
lurk mode for months.

Does the minutiae of Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories
matter? Perhaps not but it is still the most dissected collection of
fiction in the English language. And just think Loren, you had/have a
role in the creation of this well dissected collection.


---peace--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 01:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Fri May 10 00:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: VACC Suit
Message-ID: <20020510072930.24985.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>

quote:
     Like most of the terminology, Marc chose it. Does
there need to be a reason other than that?

LKW


Not at all, its as good as any, better than some maybe

quote:
     LKW is a Bokononist!

John T. Kwon


Ha (sound of dictionary flipping), oh, not there,
though I think I take the meaning. I'd have said
Marc's ist myself :)


quote:
     I'm still thinking about the term VACC suit as an
acronym.  Have we gotten anywhere?

Varied Atmosphere [something] Clothing?


The SCUBA analogy seems appropriate.  Isn't it amazing
how players will
thoughtfully create explanations for what was probably
just a typo.  :)

Tod L Glenn


Not bad, the best I've come up with is Versatile(or
Variable) Atmospheric (kinda a no brainer there)
Containment / Compensating / Circulating (pick one, my
prefs in that order) Clothes (or Coveralls).

Personally I prefer to try to find/create
justification any time something like this comes up. I
also like the earlier reply that made it a genericised
(?) brand name, there are a world of examples of that
happening.

Next week "Why Air/Raft?"

:) I kid, really, don't start posting to that, its
never bothered me in the least.




______________________________________________________________________ 
Games, Movies, Music & Sports! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 01:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Fri May 10 00:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: VACC Suit
In-Reply-To: <20020510072930.24985.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020510072930.24985.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200205100342440773.100B98A8@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/10/2002 at 3:29 AM Daniel Burns wrote:

>quote:
>     I'm still thinking about the term VACC suit as an
>acronym.  Have we gotten anywhere?
>
>Varied Atmosphere [something] Clothing?
>

<snip>

>
>Not bad, the best I've come up with is Versatile(or
>Variable) Atmospheric (kinda a no brainer there)
>Containment / Compensating / Circulating (pick one, my
>prefs in that order) Clothes (or Coveralls).

Variable Atmospheric Containment Control Suit?

Hunter



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 02:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Fri May 10 01:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: VACC Suit
Message-ID: <20020510075903.50016.qmail@web10606.mail.yahoo.com>

quote:
    Variable Atmospheric Containment Control Suit?

Hunter


Beautiful, and from Hunter no less (its practically
canon now) ;). I'm sold, measure me up for one :)

Again, thanks one and all, I can finally rest :) but
don't let that stop you if you're still having fun
with it.






______________________________________________________________________ 
Games, Movies, Music & Sports! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 02:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri May 10 01:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020510043707.B4871279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020510043707.B4871279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <f3qmdu4uevu2v8grn8jv2tlsvek1agd92q@4ax.com>

On Thu, 09 May 2002 21:36:03 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

>"Swordy" rants 
><snip his conversation with friends>

>Swordy, I should leave you with some Emerson.  Maybe there 
>should be more thinkers on the list, and there are some - but 
>there's always going to be some chaff.

I think you miss the point.  Neither 'Crusty' nor 'Sunbeard' was objecting
to the 'chaff'; the problem that they perceive - and which, quite frankly,
I agree with - is that we seem to _prefer_ the chaff to the actual
'signal'.  I've never actually said anything, but I do know that MJD,
Loren, and others have all occasionally complained that they drop what I
would call 'good signal ideas' into the list ... only to have them _appear_
to sink without a trace.  No feedback whatsoever, and very little even when
this lack is explicitly pointed out, and an explicit request for feedback
is made. Yet we can go on and on about gun control laws, or US politics, or
debate about the choice of a single word in a single sourcebook, for
_days_, and when people try to shift the topic back to 'real signal',
they'll be ignored, or shouted down. I also know that occasionally I
encounter former members of the TML in other forums (IRC, newsgroups, et
cetera), and when I informally invite them back, they often say that
they're off the list _because_ of the low S/N ratio, and because we can
flame each other endlessly about OT stuff - but can't seem to keep a real
thread on Traveller going.

[Emerson quote snipped]

>Tell your friends to step up to the plate and start posting.  
>I have definitely done my share of OT, or less than valuable 
>posting - but - I have posted some things that I thought were 
>worthwhile.  And I haven't been on the list for more than a 
>few months.  I don't view myself as a Lord of Canon, and I'm 
>sure that no one other than Loren could truly lay claim to 
>that title.  Interestingly, if you follow the example of the 
>Great Old Ones (like Loren), and publish, and publish, and 
>publish maybe you'll leave us with a new generalization (a 
>new canon!).

I've seen very few people come to the list and _not_ make _some_ good
contributions.  That's not the problem.  The problem is that we apparently
aren't able to _sustain_ a thread _based_ on those contributions.  As a
small example: This thread has already gone through more messages than my
EXPLICIT REQUEST for people to comment on the ideas for Traveller-related
topics to discuss on IRC, and to suggest times when they'd like to try to
get together and _discuss_ those topics in real time (albeit not
face-to-face).  And worse, this _message_ has more text than the totality
of responses to my initial post on that thread.

Is this the image we want to leave people with?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 02:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May 10 01:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
In-Reply-To: <3CDBB147.932.8F7A02@localhost>
References: <3CDB9ECF.18219.4753CA@localhost> <20020510085136.C12385@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CDBB147.932.8F7A02@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020510183855.A13496@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Ah, but I never meant that much planning. I meant just having a 
> contingency plan, any contingency plan.

I could probably live with that :)

Please just chalk my post up to a hair-trigger blowup based on
horrible experiences in the distant past.


> IME many party kills occur because there's no plan for a retreat, so no-
> one is willing to because they think (probably correctly) that when 
> they flee in chaos they'll be wiped out in detail. So instead they keep 
> advancing against overwhelming force and get wiped out en masse.

IME, many players won't let their characters retreat *at all*; even if
the PCs have sharpened throwing sticks versus nuclear ortillery,
there's a glowing pink sign reading "You will DIE if you advance", two
PCs have died already, and the GM has stated (as a result of a
critical succes on a Tactics and/or Strategy roll) a set of
considerations that strongly suggest a plan *much* more likely to
succeed requiring that they just retreat now.

I really do exaggerate only slightly here (although translate the
ortillery into fantasy terms).


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 04:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Fri May 10 03:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <000001c1f7cf$ac1c6ec0$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>
Message-ID: <001201c1fa66$31996830$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Matthew W. Helton
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 20:06
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)

The Character Mariette Hartley played was named Zarabeth.


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 9:21 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)

At 02:21 AM 5/12/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
[snippy]
>Well..there was the episode where Spock 'mated' with Marilu Henner..

Considering how old Marilu Henner was at the time, I really don't think
NBC 
would have aired that episode....

The actress was Mariette Hartley

------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Thank you for the corrections.  My brain wasn't working well.  :)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 04:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri May 10 03:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020507093711.01ee5440@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEGEHMAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Derek Wildstar wrote :
> At 05:32 PM 5/6/2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> > Committing an act that is legal in the place where
> > committed normally will >not constitute any sort
> > of crime in another place, even if the actor goes
> >from that other place to the place where she will
> > commit the act
>
> I'd say that this is a key tenet of Imperial law:
> while worlds may make (nearly) whatever laws they
> wish, they cannot extend  the reach of their law
> across interstellar space.  Thus you cannot be
> convicted on Regina for an  activity that took
> place on Efate.

I think certain planets would disagree with you.

When you return home to Planet Fundamentalist, and the Religious
Secret Police tell the Ayotollah
the sort of disgusting things you've been getting up to in the
bars and massage parlours of
of Regina Down, you will be whipped, have your testicles removed
by garotte, and be sentenced to
ten years in the re-education camp, irrespective of the fact that
it was legal on Regina.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 04:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Nattrass)
Date: Fri May 10 03:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] VACC suit
In-Reply-To: <B90071B2.5A991%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020510183916.021241e0@192.168.0.1>

>I'm still thinking about the term VACC suit as an acronym.  Have we gotten
>anywhere?
>
>Varied Atmosphere [something] Clothing?
Varied Atmosphere Containment Clothing ?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 04:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri May 10 03:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Players that give you the sh*ts
In-Reply-To: <200205100137.FXQ01851@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CDC4EBF.9423.7024D4@localhost>

On 9 May 2002 at 21:37, John T. Kwon wrote:

> I had a long time reputation for killing people in gaming - 
> not for fun, or for money, but because it needed doing.  It 
> got so bad over time that many times, if the other players 
> thought that they had done something they wouldn't be able to 
> explain to me, they shot me out of hand.

For many years I was forbidden by my group from playing "evil" 
characters. This was because someone was going on about how nasty and 
evil their character was, so I had my character string his up and 
proceeded to do gruesome things to his (described in detail), then let 
him down again. When my character was asked "why?" he replied "Well, 
now he knows I'm the nastiest guy around, and he'll tell everyone else, 
and what's more they'll look at what's been done to him, and they'll 
_know_ that I am." I think the thing that really bothered my friends 
was that that was only the beginning of my plans to torture that PC and 
his friends. The game stopped before I could implement them, 
fortunately.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 05:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri May 10 04:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <f3qmdu4uevu2v8grn8jv2tlsvek1agd92q@4ax.com>
References: <20020510043707.B4871279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CDC5257.28816.7E313E@localhost>

On 10 May 2002 at 4:07, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> On Thu, 09 May 2002 21:36:03 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> wrote:
> 
> >"Swordy" rants 
> ><snip his conversation with friends>
> 
> >Swordy, I should leave you with some Emerson.  Maybe there 
> >should be more thinkers on the list, and there are some - but 
> >there's always going to be some chaff.
> 
> I think you miss the point.  Neither 'Crusty' nor 'Sunbeard' was objecting
> to the 'chaff'; the problem that they perceive - and which, quite frankly,
> I agree with - is that we seem to _prefer_ the chaff to the actual
> 'signal'.  I've never actually said anything, but I do know that MJD,
> Loren, and others have all occasionally complained that they drop what I
> would call 'good signal ideas' into the list ... only to have them _appear_
> to sink without a trace.  No feedback whatsoever, and very little even when
> this lack is explicitly pointed out, and an explicit request for feedback
> is made.

As one of the guilty ones I must admit that my usual reaction to a 
really good idea or posting is "Wow! I must read this properly and 
compose a decent reply." followed by sitting like a stunned mullet in 
front of the screen until distracted by something, at which point I 
forget to actually provide the feedback. Sad, but true. :(


> Yet we can go on and on about gun control laws, or US politics, or
> debate about the choice of a single word in a single sourcebook, for
> _days_

I think it's partly because it's easier than actually thinking. Ranting 
on doesn't require the brain to actually be put in gear, unlike 
constructive posting, criticism, etc. I stand in awe of people like 
yourself, Mr. Whipsnade and others who have the energy and discipline 
to produce quality material.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 05:07:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri May 10 04:07:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meat
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205100751110.811-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <B8FFFE6F.5A859%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CDC5257.24602.7E3074@localhost>

On 10 May 2002 at 7:52, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> On Thu, 9 May 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
> > Oh...That PETA.  I thought you were talking about the People for the Eating
> > of Tasty Animals.
> > 
> > It's like my friend Ed says "I God had not wanted us to eat animals, he
> > wouldn't have made them out of meat."
> 
> No, no, no. 
> 
> If animals are not to be eaten, why are the made of food?

I always remember it as "If God hadn't wanted us to eat people, he 
wouldn't have made us of meat."

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 05:11:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri May 10 04:11:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
In-Reply-To: <20020510183855.A13496@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CDBB147.932.8F7A02@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CDC5359.13052.82204C@localhost>

On 10 May 2002 at 18:38, Timothy Little wrote:

> IME, many players won't let their characters retreat *at all*; even if
> the PCs have sharpened throwing sticks versus nuclear ortillery,
> there's a glowing pink sign reading "You will DIE if you advance", two
> PCs have died already, and the GM has stated (as a result of a
> critical succes on a Tactics and/or Strategy roll) a set of
> considerations that strongly suggest a plan *much* more likely to
> succeed requiring that they just retreat now.
> 
> I really do exaggerate only slightly here (although translate the
> ortillery into fantasy terms).

I understand - I get that myself. I don't actually have a problem with 
it, as both player and GM, provided there's no wingeing afterwards. 
It's the grizzling and moaning about how it was 'unfair' or whatever 
that gets me.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 05:11:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May 10 04:11:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020510044848.96295.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <m3k7qcod9a.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020510070912.00cb9a78@192.168.0.1>

At 09:48 PM 5/9/2002 -0700, allensh wrote:
>--- "Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> > Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> > > While the sword thread did get down and dirty in
> > details, it also was
> > > on topic in multiple points:
> > [snip]
> > Not only was it _on-topic_ on many points, I cannot
> > recall a bit where
> > it was _off-topic_.
>A thread can be on topic and still be pointless, and
>the sword thread was WAY pointless. Worse, I would
>say, than the Great Near-C Rock Debate.

No thread about swords can be 'pointless'.  Unless you are really talking 
about training foils, then the point is still there, just dulled...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else 
wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 05:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri May 10 04:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] All Psi party
In-Reply-To: <20020510082332.A12385@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020510113548.22585.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
wrote:
> Daniel Tackett wrote:
> > I have an all psi party; I've been doing pretty
> good so far, but am
> > concerned about the future of my campaign.
> 
> What type of campaign are you running?  What do the
> players like?
> What do you want?
> 
> Two of these These guys are Zhodani in disguise
making a hasty trip through the Imperium down to an
obscure place in the Reavers Deep that is thought to
be an old forgotten(due to the long night) Vilani
Repository of Knowledge that cocentrated mainly on
psionics and workings of the brain. Also, here is an
old  think tank project to make a virus type program
for infiltrating system defenses. THis campaign occurs
about year 100. I give them about 2 xp a week,but
because my game is mostly roleplaying, we play for
hours on end using little in the way of skills until
there is an altercation of some type. I'm just
wondering if anyone has ever had experience with a
party that had several psi's in it. What should and
shouldn't I do? I've made life pretty easy seeing as
how they have the ability of mask, and they don't draw
attention to themselve and don't stay in one system
too long. 
> > Any ideas about handling an all psionicist party
> are welcome and
> > appreciated.
> 
> It really depends upon whether the psi abilities are
> part of the focus
> Psionics is not very focal it's just a tool for the
pc's.
> Making some vague assumptions -- that the campaign
> is set in the
> Imperium, and that the PCs are using their abilities
> covertly to their
> own advantage -- they are almost everywhere
> committing criminal acts.
> They may or may not ever be detected doing so. 
> Either way, they have
> to decide how far they are willing to go to protect
> their secret.
> There could be a serious problem if they differ
> greatly on this issue,
> and their answers will probably set the whole tone
> of the campaign.
> 
They've been careful about they're powers when in
public, problem is I haven't taken them anywhere for
long enough, for it to be too much of a problem yet.
They met on Regina and spent most of their time in the
Imperium hightailing it to the system of interest. I
want to stay in the Imperium, at least, for the
forseeable future. I just don't know how harsh I
should make daily living. What happens if they run
into Psis that are Imperial citizens? Will there be
trouble because of Imperial tension with the Zhodani's
or will there be some comradery or even awe from the
Imp citizens?
Thanks for your feedback.

> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 06:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May 10 05:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Topics For Chat
Message-ID: <200205101201.FYK02953@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>  

1. Before chat, there should be an agenda.  As an example, 
the chatters could have looked at a particular product, such 
as ACQ, or some other recent Traveller product.

2.  During the chat, the item in question would be discussed 
as to its good and bad parts.

3.  Alternatively, a person could distribute a new adventure, 
skill resolution system, etc., and that could be discussed.

It's hard to just say the topic will be "trade in the 
Imperium" and then start chatting.  There has to be an object 
of discussion.  Maybe that's what we need on the TML as 
well.  Might keep us from straying so much.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 07:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 10 06:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vacc suit
Message-ID: <74.1ca15ff9.2a0d1e6f@aol.com>

>Isn't it amazing how players will
>thoughtfully create explanations for what was probably just a typo. 

Not a typo -- as I said earlier, it was a specific choice on Marc's part.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 07:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May 10 06:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vacc suit
References: <74.1ca15ff9.2a0d1e6f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1f822$f0637170$eed293c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >Isn't it amazing how players will
> >thoughtfully create explanations for what was probably just a typo. 
> 
> Not a typo -- as I said earlier, it was a specific choice on Marc's part.
> 
>

which resulted in me mis-spelling Vacuum throughout my entire schooling....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 07:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 10 06:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vacc suit
Message-ID: <9f.27076a80.2a0d21f3@aol.com>

>quote:
>     Like most of the terminology, Marc chose it. Does
>there need to be a reason other than that?
>
>LKW
>
>
>Not at all, its as good as any, better than some maybe

It did come in handy later on, however. When Edu-Ware ripped off the game to 
create their computer game (Space and Space II), one of the main pieces of 
evidence that convinced the judge that they had violated GDW copyrights was 
the fact that they used such spellings as "vacc suit" and "air/raft" and 
lifted whole tables verbatim.

The most telling evidence was that they used the skill "Forward Observer" to 
mean "a person who can see things in front of him very well" -- the judge -- 
who was a veteran -- reasoned they had copied the tables (the program was in 
basic and had no security whatsoever, so it was easy to list) and did not 
have a clue what FO meant.

GDW got legal fees and a boatload of game discs. Marc still has some, I 
think.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 07:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri May 10 06:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] VACC suit
Message-ID: <3CDBCCB8.DD63F220@ameritech.net>

How about,

Vacuum and Adverse Conditions Clothing.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 08:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri May 10 07:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vacc suit
In-Reply-To: <74.1ca15ff9.2a0d1e6f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020510141532.54251.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

--- GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> >Isn't it amazing how players will
> >thoughtfully create explanations for what was
> probably just a typo. 
> 
> Not a typo -- as I said earlier, it was a specific
> choice on Marc's part.
> 

At least that was his story and he's sticking to it.
:)

Seriously, I think of all the ideas posted I prefer
the acronym supposition and I liked

Variable Atmospheric Condition Control Suit.

Seems tto fit the best.

Paul

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 08:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri May 10 07:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Topics For Chat
In-Reply-To: <200205101201.FYK02953@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020510142331.24038.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, I had not replied to this because I didn't want
to upset anyone.  Personally, I believe that IRC would
be a great way to, uhm, well chat with other Traveller
people.  In a crowded chat-room, it can be very
difficult to keep up with a conversation, but none the
less, the chat is usually enjoyable.

The problem is the participation on #Traveller.  Aside
from the most recent "directed" chat suggestion, we
had been asked to visit the channel to keep it alive. 
Well I did and after a moment of hello's from maybe 1
or 2 of the occupants -- nothing.  I spent more time
than I care to admit here just sitting waiting for a
conversation to begin.  It rarely did despite the 6-10
people in the chat room.

Maybe this is a result of the time I was on (M-F 5-10
ET USA) but that is when I can be on.  I'm not fond of
sitting and watching a cursor blink, or reading while
waiting for someone to post.  So I quit going.

In any case, if the "directed" chat topics seem
interesting enough, and they are during the times
above, I will gladly participate.

There is my take on the matter.

Paul


__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 08:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri May 10 07:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Wargaming
In-Reply-To: <F244mllgYBr4BvRnfvc0000200b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020510142616.71446.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Caractacus, last summer.  

As in King Caractacus?

As in the Ladies of the Harem of the Court of King
Caractacus?

As in the Boys who put the Powder on the Noses of the
Ladies of the Harem of the Court of King Caractacus?

As in the Fascinating Witches who put the Stintilating
Stitches in the Britches of the Boys who put the
Powder on the Noses of the Ladies of the Harem of the
Court of King Caractacus?

Oh well, Let it pass by.




__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 08:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (allensh)
Date: Fri May 10 07:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <m33cx0o6o3.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020510143015.55988.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> allensh <allensh@yahoo.com> writes:
> > 
> > A thread can be on topic and still be pointless,
> and the sword
> > thread was WAY pointless.  Worse, I would say,
> than the Great Near-C
> > Rock Debate.
> 
> On what, exactly, do you base that statement?  It
> was a) interesting
> (else it would not have lasted so long) b) relevant
> (it dealt with a
> matter of terminology) and c) lead to useful
> discussions on future
> melee combat.
> 
> What, praytell, do you consider `pointful'?

I consider the following things 'pointful':

1.) Adventure ideas for Traveller
2.) Interesting ideas for worlds for Traveller
3.) New technology for Traveller
4.) Starships for Traveller
5.) new alien races for Traveller.
6.) tips on Gamemastering, specfically related to
Traveller.

In short, while you may find long dissertations on
swords and such interesting, I find that they do
absolutely nothing to enhance my enjoyment of the
Traveller RPG and setting. There are, I'm quite sure,
mailing lists for haggling over the miniutae of
weapons from various stages of history. I don't feel
that this list should be one of them.

Allen

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 08:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Erich Brackmann)
Date: Fri May 10 07:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1f79d$e24603d0$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <NFBBLDDPILPJIAJFMDJCOENECCAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>

* > First, you have to remember that (ignoring the PC issue for a second),
> > this will be an veyr, very small problem.  Almost all of the people
> > who would be serial killers just won't have the resources to world-hop
> > like that.  That is an incredible degree of freedom that just doesn't
> > exist for almost everyone in the Imperium.  The only real exceptions
> > to that are PCs and nobles.
>
> Hardly. The Imperium couldn't possibly support the level of trade it
> does without there being a rather large amount of personal travel
> between systems.

<snip>
*
Aside from that, assuming reasonable planning, it should be quite possible
for someone to commit a murder (or even a group murder) and flee to another
planet.  It is much, much more difficult to have a pattern of murder and
freely move between planets.  Unless you have a ship.  And the only people
I can think of that would have a ship and do something as unprofitable as
serial killing are PCs and nobles.

Mike West
I'd have to disagree here.  Please define "unprofitable".
Any large merchant line can have a crew member decide to whack a couple of
(fill in the blanks) and hide the body in a semi-clever manner.  Days later
(long after they've jumped) the authorities find the body.  Repeat on
several planets over the course of months.  How long before (if ever?) the
various planets start comparing notes?  Even if on a regular route, the
repetition rate would be low on any given planet.
Anybody who travels on a regular basis (how about that insurance
investigator tracking down pirated starships?) could harbor this aberration.
- Erich


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 08:36:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May 10 07:36:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020510143015.55988.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B90128AA.5AA2F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/10/02 7:30 AM, allensh at allensh@yahoo.com wrote:

> In short, while you may find long dissertations on
> swords and such interesting, I find that they do
> absolutely nothing to enhance my enjoyment of the
> Traveller RPG and setting. There are, I'm quite sure,
> mailing lists for haggling over the miniutae of
> weapons from various stages of history. I don't feel
> that this list should be one of them.

The sword thread is dead, OK.  Now this thread seems to be the one taking on
a life of it own.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 08:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri May 10 07:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
In-Reply-To: <20020510085136.C12385@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020510144340.74678.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
wrote:
>
> Besides, all of my characters for which such plans
> are necessary are
> almost always *far* better planners than I
> personally am -- so doing
> their planning at the player level is severely
> detrimental to both
> chances of success and suspension of disbelief.

How do the rest of you handle this?  I had this come
up as a player in an early game.  My original
character had been fried (I posted about this earlier)
and were in rehab.  The back up character had combat
engineering skill.  At the time, I hated what the GM
did, but now I see his reasoning.

I was a gaming novice and didn't know what combat
engineering was much less what sort of traps and
guards I could implement around our camp area.  So I
asked what my character would do.  My GM said "You
tell me."  He played it out that it didn't matter so
much what I did, but whatever it was would have my
combat engineering skill associated with its success.

Now, while I agree with association of the success of
the traps and such with my PC's skill, I still wish I
had been given more info as to what to do.  My
association with military and such was from a few
movies and TV shows, and I was clueless.

In any case, as it turned out, we were camping out in
the area of the deserted town where the hidden trap
door was.  The traps and such didn't matter.

So how is this handled in your games?

Paul

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 08:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May 10 07:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
Message-ID: <200205101456.FYQ05421@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Paul Walker asks
<snip about relevant skills, and how you
may not be a subject matter expert>

>So how is this handled in your games?
>
This happens all the time.  Wow, someone in my current PBEM 
is a SME in Hyperspace Physics.  Am I personally an expert in 
that?  Or is the player?  No - my instructions were - we'll 
make it up as we go along.

Let's take your last problem - you were a combat engineer, 
but you personally don't know much about it.  You'll have to 
ask the GM - "give me some ideas of what I can do to set up 
the defenses" - at least you know from the description in 
Book 4 that the skill has something to do with defenses.

The GM and the player have to work something out then - it 
can be simple - it can even be largely wrong (hey, I'm not a 
physicist, and my expertise is anything related to physics is 
lay reading in Scientific American and a few SF books).

The point is that you get to at least try to use your skills, 
and try to come up with ideas.  If the GM just leaves you 
hanging, then that's another problem altogether.

Also, the combat engineering of the "far future" is probably 
not what it is today.  Still might be some armored engineer 
vehicles (read bulldozers) in the future, though.

And - there are enough gearheads and pontificators here on 
the TML.  If you want to start new threads and get some 
conflicting answers and appeals to Canon - just ask us what a 
Combat Engineer can do.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 09:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri May 10 08:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: VACC Suit
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA227AE@USCHM203>

	I'd have to agree with Loren that VACC simply looks better than VAC.
Maybe it's just that after 20+ years I can't imagine it being anything other
than a vacc suit. My friends and I don't even use the term space suit, even
when talking about a current spacewalk in the news.
	Kind of how "jeep" came out of GP(General Purpose). No one questions
why it's not "geep" or "Gee-Pee". 

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-request@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-request@travellercentral.com]
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 8:03 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #508 - 22 msgs


Send TML mailing list submissions to
	tml@travellercentral.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long) (allensh)
   2. Re: Imperial law (Shane Slamet)
   3. Re: Re: Meat (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
   4. Re: SEC: UNCLASS Players that give you the sh*ts (Mikko V. I.
Parviainen)
   5. Re: SEC: UNCLASS Re: Troublesome players (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
   6. Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long) (Robert Uhl
<ruhl@4dv.net>)
   7. Does there need to be...? (Mark)
   8. Re: VACC Suit (Daniel Burns)
   9. Re: Re: VACC Suit (Hunter Gordon)
  10. Re: VACC Suit (Daniel Burns)
  11. Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long) (Jeff Zeitlin)
  12. Re: Munchkins, et al (Timothy Little)
  13. RE: OT: a head-beating moment (fwd) (J-Man)
  14. RE: re Hasty words (Frank Pitt)
  15. Re: VACC suit (Nattrass)
  16. Re: SEC: UNCLASS Players that give you the sh*ts (Rupert Boleyn)
  17. Re: Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long) (Rupert Boleyn)
  18. Re: Re: Meat (Rupert Boleyn)
  19. Re: Munchkins, et al (Rupert Boleyn)
  20. Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long) (Mark Urbin)
  21. Re: All Psi party (Daniel Tackett)
  22. Re: Re: Topics For Chat (John T. Kwon)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 21:48:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


--- "Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> > 
> > While the sword thread did get down and dirty in
> details, it also was
> > on topic in multiple points:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Not only was it _on-topic_ on many points, I cannot
> recall a bit where
> it was _off-topic_.

A thread can be on topic and still be pointless, and
the sword thread was WAY pointless. Worse, I would
say, than the Great Near-C Rock Debate.

Allen


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "Shane Slamet" <s.slamet@bom.gov.au>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Imperial law
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 14:51:09 +1000
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Robert wrote:
> > What about crimes commited in space?
>
> Fall under jurisdiction of the captain.  He falls under jurisdiction
> of his port of registry.
>
> Which could be clear across the Imperium...

Actually, how 'canon' is this?  (not a challenge, just asking for your
opinion)

I'm asking because this is, unsurprisingly, an issue that crops up fairly
frequently in the average Traveller game.  By the rules as you state them,
the starship in question seems to be (with respect to legal issues at least)
considered a territorial extension of the world where it was registered.
Therefore when you board a ship that was registered on Regina/Regina, you
are effectively stepping onto Regina territory, and subject to the laws and
politics of Regina.  Even if the ship in question is berthed somewhere in
the Sol system.  The mind boggles.

I've seen this same ruling used in a number of SF books, although the only
one I can clearly remember is the 'Deathworld' trilogy.  IIRC, Jason dinAlt
and his ilk made copious use of the nasty loopholes and political
complications that this convention provides.  Personally, I'm hard pressed
to see any sane interstellar government adopting this convention.  But hey,
I've never run an interstellar govt (outside of the 'Master of Orion'
series) so I'm not sure how well I've really weighed up the pros and cons.
:)
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Starship Extraterritoriality!  For Great Justice!
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


--__--__--

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 07:52:43 +0300 (EEST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Meat
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Thu, 9 May 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
> Oh...That PETA.  I thought you were talking about the People for the
Eating
> of Tasty Animals.
> 
> It's like my friend Ed says "I God had not wanted us to eat animals, he
> wouldn't have made them out of meat."

No, no, no. 

If animals are not to be eaten, why are the made of food?

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 08:33:20 +0300 (EEST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Players that give you the sh*ts
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Thu, 9 May 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:
> why people play roleplaying games.  Why do most people tend 
> to roll or create or play the same kinds of characters?  
> Everyone has a gestalt image - and most people can't help but 
> bring that out when they play.  It is a rare thing for 
> someone (especially new players) to play anything except the 
> way they wish they were.

I think you are correct, usually. I have been trying during the last 5-6
years to create "new" characters, that is, characters which are unlike my
characters before.

Usually I like to play bard types, or people who talk much and try not to
get into physical conflict. Seems like me, or my ideal...

> More than the fantasy he-man, the other irrepresible and 
> undesireabe personality traits that come out have bothered 
> me.  Ever see people who in real life claim a moral high 
> ground consistently butcher the innocent and helpless in 
> roleplaying?  Not once, but consistently?  Makes you wonder.

Well, yes. 

I begun playing in a fantasy game (Praedor, one of the very few Finnish
games currently). It is a quite grim game, with somewhat deadly combat
system. The world is a magically kept area in the middle of ancient
destructed area, where some people go to try to get something valuable
there. 

So, I made a woodsman character, who was not a nice person at all. He had
to have a reason to adventure and probably die doing it. During last
session I suddenly figured that I was very properly roleplaying him (the
system has faults and virtues, somewhat like GURPS, and I roleplayed him
being short-tempered and raunchy), but I did not like him at all and was a
bit disgusted. This made me wonder afterwards why I play a character like
him. Haven't found yet a good reason, except I thought it would be fun. (I
began to find some nice sides about him after that. They just weren't very
apparent in his upbringing.)

This was a very different from my usual characters, but it seems a
rewarding experience. I don't expect him to live very long, still.
Being short-tempered is not very healthy in a fantasy world, if you only
know how to use daggers. He loses very quickly to a skilled opponent with
a sword, and he probably doesn't know it...

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


--__--__--

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 08:41:54 +0300 (EEST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Re: Troublesome players
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Fri, 10 May 2002, Hughes, Michael wrote:
> Do you (and for that matter all the TML), do you rotate the Ref's position
> within the group, among the "able" ref's?
> Or is there only one ref all the time?

I hang around with the Helsinki University RPG club. We have so many
potential players (around 30-40 active, I think) that there is little
'group' mentality. Of course eople play more with closer friends and
people wanting to play the same kind of games.

So, there is usually no group where to rotate. I keep a game which I like
to keep and play in games I like to play in. 

Of course, there are people who like to Referee more and people who like
to play more. 

Usually people wanting to play some game either pester someone to be the
gamemaster, or they prepare the game and post it to our mailing list to
get some players. Of course, usually at least some player positions are
discussed in advance... (Our system is meant to help people moving to
Helsinki to study to find players and gaming groups.)

I think we are quite lucky: there is a ample pool of people playing, so
people can find almost any game they want, and can probably find players
if no one is game mastering a game they want and they have to do it
themselves. 

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


--__--__--

Message: 6
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: 10 May 2002 00:31:24 -0600
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

allensh <allensh@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> A thread can be on topic and still be pointless, and the sword
> thread was WAY pointless.  Worse, I would say, than the Great Near-C
> Rock Debate.

On what, exactly, do you base that statement?  It was a) interesting
(else it would not have lasted so long) b) relevant (it dealt with a
matter of terminology) and c) lead to useful discussions on future
melee combat.

What, praytell, do you consider `pointful'?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cristo Resucita!  En Verdad Resucita!

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: "Mark" <n2sami@attbi.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 00:20:03 -0700
Organization: the Discovery Process
Subject: [TML] Does there need to be...?
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Loren asks, "Does there need to be a reason other than that?


Tsk, tsk, tsk. How many times must you watch us dissect the absolute
minutiae? Of course it matters to some small subset of us. Each askable
question matters to its own subset of this list and the greater
Traveller community.

Now this one matters because...well it doesn't but I thought long enough
about the question to provide an answer anyway and I've been in super
lurk mode for months.

Does the minutiae of Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories
matter? Perhaps not but it is still the most dissected collection of
fiction in the English language. And just think Loren, you had/have a
role in the creation of this well dissected collection.


---peace--


--__--__--

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 03:29:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Daniel Burns <far_trader_mail@yahoo.ca>
To: tml <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: [TML] Re: VACC Suit
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

quote:
     Like most of the terminology, Marc chose it. Does
there need to be a reason other than that?

LKW


Not at all, its as good as any, better than some maybe

quote:
     LKW is a Bokononist!

John T. Kwon


Ha (sound of dictionary flipping), oh, not there,
though I think I take the meaning. I'd have said
Marc's ist myself :)


quote:
     I'm still thinking about the term VACC suit as an
acronym.  Have we gotten anywhere?

Varied Atmosphere [something] Clothing?


The SCUBA analogy seems appropriate.  Isn't it amazing
how players will
thoughtfully create explanations for what was probably
just a typo.  :)

Tod L Glenn


Not bad, the best I've come up with is Versatile(or
Variable) Atmospheric (kinda a no brainer there)
Containment / Compensating / Circulating (pick one, my
prefs in that order) Clothes (or Coveralls).

Personally I prefer to try to find/create
justification any time something like this comes up. I
also like the earlier reply that made it a genericised
(?) brand name, there are a world of examples of that
happening.

Next week "Why Air/Raft?"

:) I kid, really, don't start posting to that, its
never bothered me in the least.




______________________________________________________________________ 
Games, Movies, Music & Sports! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 03:42:44 -0400
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: VACC Suit
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/10/2002 at 3:29 AM Daniel Burns wrote:

>quote:
>     I'm still thinking about the term VACC suit as an
>acronym.  Have we gotten anywhere?
>
>Varied Atmosphere [something] Clothing?
>

<snip>

>
>Not bad, the best I've come up with is Versatile(or
>Variable) Atmospheric (kinda a no brainer there)
>Containment / Compensating / Circulating (pick one, my
>prefs in that order) Clothes (or Coveralls).

Variable Atmospheric Containment Control Suit?

Hunter



--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 03:59:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Daniel Burns <far_trader_mail@yahoo.ca>
To: tml <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: [TML] Re: VACC Suit
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

quote:
    Variable Atmospheric Containment Control Suit?

Hunter


Beautiful, and from Hunter no less (its practically
canon now) ;). I'm sold, measure me up for one :)

Again, thanks one and all, I can finally rest :) but
don't let that stop you if you're still having fun
with it.






______________________________________________________________________ 
Games, Movies, Music & Sports! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

--__--__--

Message: 11
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 04:07:36 -0400
Organization: None To Speak Of
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Thu, 09 May 2002 21:36:03 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

>"Swordy" rants 
><snip his conversation with friends>

>Swordy, I should leave you with some Emerson.  Maybe there 
>should be more thinkers on the list, and there are some - but 
>there's always going to be some chaff.

I think you miss the point.  Neither 'Crusty' nor 'Sunbeard' was objecting
to the 'chaff'; the problem that they perceive - and which, quite frankly,
I agree with - is that we seem to _prefer_ the chaff to the actual
'signal'.  I've never actually said anything, but I do know that MJD,
Loren, and others have all occasionally complained that they drop what I
would call 'good signal ideas' into the list ... only to have them _appear_
to sink without a trace.  No feedback whatsoever, and very little even when
this lack is explicitly pointed out, and an explicit request for feedback
is made. Yet we can go on and on about gun control laws, or US politics, or
debate about the choice of a single word in a single sourcebook, for
_days_, and when people try to shift the topic back to 'real signal',
they'll be ignored, or shouted down. I also know that occasionally I
encounter former members of the TML in other forums (IRC, newsgroups, et
cetera), and when I informally invite them back, they often say that
they're off the list _because_ of the low S/N ratio, and because we can
flame each other endlessly about OT stuff - but can't seem to keep a real
thread on Traveller going.

[Emerson quote snipped]

>Tell your friends to step up to the plate and start posting.  
>I have definitely done my share of OT, or less than valuable 
>posting - but - I have posted some things that I thought were 
>worthwhile.  And I haven't been on the list for more than a 
>few months.  I don't view myself as a Lord of Canon, and I'm 
>sure that no one other than Loren could truly lay claim to 
>that title.  Interestingly, if you follow the example of the 
>Great Old Ones (like Loren), and publish, and publish, and 
>publish maybe you'll leave us with a new generalization (a 
>new canon!).

I've seen very few people come to the list and _not_ make _some_ good
contributions.  That's not the problem.  The problem is that we apparently
aren't able to _sustain_ a thread _based_ on those contributions.  As a
small example: This thread has already gone through more messages than my
EXPLICIT REQUEST for people to comment on the ideas for Traveller-related
topics to discuss on IRC, and to suggest times when they'd like to try to
get together and _discuss_ those topics in real time (albeit not
face-to-face).  And worse, this _message_ has more text than the totality
of responses to my initial post on that thread.

Is this the image we want to leave people with?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 18:38:55 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Munchkins, et al
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Ah, but I never meant that much planning. I meant just having a 
> contingency plan, any contingency plan.

I could probably live with that :)

Please just chalk my post up to a hair-trigger blowup based on
horrible experiences in the distant past.


> IME many party kills occur because there's no plan for a retreat, so no-
> one is willing to because they think (probably correctly) that when 
> they flee in chaos they'll be wiped out in detail. So instead they keep 
> advancing against overwhelming force and get wiped out en masse.

IME, many players won't let their characters retreat *at all*; even if
the PCs have sharpened throwing sticks versus nuclear ortillery,
there's a glowing pink sign reading "You will DIE if you advance", two
PCs have died already, and the GM has stated (as a result of a
critical succes on a Tactics and/or Strategy roll) a set of
considerations that strongly suggest a plan *much* more likely to
succeed requiring that they just retreat now.

I really do exaggerate only slightly here (although translate the
ortillery into fantasy terms).


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 13
From: "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 03:08:51 -0700
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Matthew W. Helton
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 20:06
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)

The Character Mariette Hartley played was named Zarabeth.


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 9:21 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)

At 02:21 AM 5/12/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
[snippy]
>Well..there was the episode where Spock 'mated' with Marilu Henner..

Considering how old Marilu Henner was at the time, I really don't think
NBC 
would have aired that episode....

The actress was Mariette Hartley

------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Thank you for the corrections.  My brain wasn't working well.  :)



--__--__--

Message: 14
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] re Hasty words
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 22:36:27 +1200
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


Derek Wildstar wrote :
> At 05:32 PM 5/6/2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> > Committing an act that is legal in the place where
> > committed normally will >not constitute any sort
> > of crime in another place, even if the actor goes
> >from that other place to the place where she will
> > commit the act
>
> I'd say that this is a key tenet of Imperial law:
> while worlds may make (nearly) whatever laws they
> wish, they cannot extend  the reach of their law
> across interstellar space.  Thus you cannot be
> convicted on Regina for an  activity that took
> place on Efate.

I think certain planets would disagree with you.

When you return home to Planet Fundamentalist, and the Religious
Secret Police tell the Ayotollah
the sort of disgusting things you've been getting up to in the
bars and massage parlours of
of Regina Down, you will be whipped, have your testicles removed
by garotte, and be sentenced to
ten years in the re-education camp, irrespective of the fact that
it was legal on Regina.

Frankie



--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 18:40:24 +0800
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Nattrass <wulfren@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: [TML] VACC suit
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


>I'm still thinking about the term VACC suit as an acronym.  Have we gotten
>anywhere?
>
>Varied Atmosphere [something] Clothing?
Varied Atmosphere Containment Clothing ?


--__--__--

Message: 16
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Organization: Babel and Chaos
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 22:50:39 +1200
Subject: Re: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Players that give you the sh*ts
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On 9 May 2002 at 21:37, John T. Kwon wrote:

> I had a long time reputation for killing people in gaming - 
> not for fun, or for money, but because it needed doing.  It 
> got so bad over time that many times, if the other players 
> thought that they had done something they wouldn't be able to 
> explain to me, they shot me out of hand.

For many years I was forbidden by my group from playing "evil" 
characters. This was because someone was going on about how nasty and 
evil their character was, so I had my character string his up and 
proceeded to do gruesome things to his (described in detail), then let 
him down again. When my character was asked "why?" he replied "Well, 
now he knows I'm the nastiest guy around, and he'll tell everyone else, 
and what's more they'll look at what's been done to him, and they'll 
_know_ that I am." I think the thing that really bothered my friends 
was that that was only the beginning of my plans to torture that PC and 
his friends. The game stopped before I could implement them, 
fortunately.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


--__--__--

Message: 17
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Organization: Babel and Chaos
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 23:05:59 +1200
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On 10 May 2002 at 4:07, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> On Thu, 09 May 2002 21:36:03 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> wrote:
> 
> >"Swordy" rants 
> ><snip his conversation with friends>
> 
> >Swordy, I should leave you with some Emerson.  Maybe there 
> >should be more thinkers on the list, and there are some - but 
> >there's always going to be some chaff.
> 
> I think you miss the point.  Neither 'Crusty' nor 'Sunbeard' was objecting
> to the 'chaff'; the problem that they perceive - and which, quite frankly,
> I agree with - is that we seem to _prefer_ the chaff to the actual
> 'signal'.  I've never actually said anything, but I do know that MJD,
> Loren, and others have all occasionally complained that they drop what I
> would call 'good signal ideas' into the list ... only to have them
_appear_
> to sink without a trace.  No feedback whatsoever, and very little even
when
> this lack is explicitly pointed out, and an explicit request for feedback
> is made.

As one of the guilty ones I must admit that my usual reaction to a 
really good idea or posting is "Wow! I must read this properly and 
compose a decent reply." followed by sitting like a stunned mullet in 
front of the screen until distracted by something, at which point I 
forget to actually provide the feedback. Sad, but true. :(


> Yet we can go on and on about gun control laws, or US politics, or
> debate about the choice of a single word in a single sourcebook, for
> _days_

I think it's partly because it's easier than actually thinking. Ranting 
on doesn't require the brain to actually be put in gear, unlike 
constructive posting, criticism, etc. I stand in awe of people like 
yourself, Mr. Whipsnade and others who have the energy and discipline 
to produce quality material.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


--__--__--

Message: 18
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Organization: Babel and Chaos
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 23:05:59 +1200
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Meat
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On 10 May 2002 at 7:52, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> On Thu, 9 May 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
> > Oh...That PETA.  I thought you were talking about the People for the
Eating
> > of Tasty Animals.
> > 
> > It's like my friend Ed says "I God had not wanted us to eat animals, he
> > wouldn't have made them out of meat."
> 
> No, no, no. 
> 
> If animals are not to be eaten, why are the made of food?

I always remember it as "If God hadn't wanted us to eat people, he 
wouldn't have made us of meat."

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


--__--__--

Message: 19
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Organization: Babel and Chaos
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 23:10:17 +1200
Subject: Re: [TML] Munchkins, et al
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On 10 May 2002 at 18:38, Timothy Little wrote:

> IME, many players won't let their characters retreat *at all*; even if
> the PCs have sharpened throwing sticks versus nuclear ortillery,
> there's a glowing pink sign reading "You will DIE if you advance", two
> PCs have died already, and the GM has stated (as a result of a
> critical succes on a Tactics and/or Strategy roll) a set of
> considerations that strongly suggest a plan *much* more likely to
> succeed requiring that they just retreat now.
> 
> I really do exaggerate only slightly here (although translate the
> ortillery into fantasy terms).

I understand - I get that myself. I don't actually have a problem with 
it, as both player and GM, provided there's no wingeing afterwards. 
It's the grizzling and moaning about how it was 'unfair' or whatever 
that gets me.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


--__--__--

Message: 20
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 07:10:29 -0400
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
Subject: Re: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

At 09:48 PM 5/9/2002 -0700, allensh wrote:
>--- "Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> > Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> > > While the sword thread did get down and dirty in
> > details, it also was
> > > on topic in multiple points:
> > [snip]
> > Not only was it _on-topic_ on many points, I cannot
> > recall a bit where
> > it was _off-topic_.
>A thread can be on topic and still be pointless, and
>the sword thread was WAY pointless. Worse, I would
>say, than the Great Near-C Rock Debate.

No thread about swords can be 'pointless'.  Unless you are really talking 
about training foils, then the point is still there, just dulled...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else 
wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



--__--__--

Message: 21
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 04:35:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] All Psi party
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


--- Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
wrote:
> Daniel Tackett wrote:
> > I have an all psi party; I've been doing pretty
> good so far, but am
> > concerned about the future of my campaign.
> 
> What type of campaign are you running?  What do the
> players like?
> What do you want?
> 
> Two of these These guys are Zhodani in disguise
making a hasty trip through the Imperium down to an
obscure place in the Reavers Deep that is thought to
be an old forgotten(due to the long night) Vilani
Repository of Knowledge that cocentrated mainly on
psionics and workings of the brain. Also, here is an
old  think tank project to make a virus type program
for infiltrating system defenses. THis campaign occurs
about year 100. I give them about 2 xp a week,but
because my game is mostly roleplaying, we play for
hours on end using little in the way of skills until
there is an altercation of some type. I'm just
wondering if anyone has ever had experience with a
party that had several psi's in it. What should and
shouldn't I do? I've made life pretty easy seeing as
how they have the ability of mask, and they don't draw
attention to themselve and don't stay in one system
too long. 
> > Any ideas about handling an all psionicist party
> are welcome and
> > appreciated.
> 
> It really depends upon whether the psi abilities are
> part of the focus
> Psionics is not very focal it's just a tool for the
pc's.
> Making some vague assumptions -- that the campaign
> is set in the
> Imperium, and that the PCs are using their abilities
> covertly to their
> own advantage -- they are almost everywhere
> committing criminal acts.
> They may or may not ever be detected doing so. 
> Either way, they have
> to decide how far they are willing to go to protect
> their secret.
> There could be a serious problem if they differ
> greatly on this issue,
> and their answers will probably set the whole tone
> of the campaign.
> 
They've been careful about they're powers when in
public, problem is I haven't taken them anywhere for
long enough, for it to be too much of a problem yet.
They met on Regina and spent most of their time in the
Imperium hightailing it to the system of interest. I
want to stay in the Imperium, at least, for the
forseeable future. I just don't know how harsh I
should make daily living. What happens if they run
into Psis that are Imperial citizens? Will there be
trouble because of Imperial tension with the Zhodani's
or will there be some comradery or even awe from the
Imp citizens?
Thanks for your feedback.

> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 22
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 08:01:40 -0400
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Topics For Chat
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>  

1. Before chat, there should be an agenda.  As an example, 
the chatters could have looked at a particular product, such 
as ACQ, or some other recent Traveller product.

2.  During the chat, the item in question would be discussed 
as to its good and bad parts.

3.  Alternatively, a person could distribute a new adventure, 
skill resolution system, etc., and that could be discussed.

It's hard to just say the topic will be "trade in the 
Imperium" and then start chatting.  There has to be an object 
of discussion.  Maybe that's what we need on the TML as 
well.  Might keep us from straying so much.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 09:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri May 10 08:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meat
In-Reply-To: <3CDC5257.24602.7E3074@localhost>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205100751110.811-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
 <B8FFFE6F.5A859%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020510082914.009fb700@mindspring.com>

At 11:05 PM 5/10/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > > It's like my friend Ed says "I God had not wanted us to eat animals, he
> > > wouldn't have made them out of meat."
> >
> > No, no, no.
> >
> > If animals are not to be eaten, why are the made of food?
>
>I always remember it as "If God hadn't wanted us to eat people, he
>wouldn't have made us of meat."

"Plants aren't food.. plants are what food eats."  I used this one while 
dealing with a strict vegan PeTA true believer at BayCon last year.


--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

_Law & Order: Sport Utility Vehicle_
"On the road of life, there are two separate yet equally important
groups - the passengers who ride in vehicles and the people who drive
them...  These are their stories.  <SFX: honk honk>" - Ed Dravecky III


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 09:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Fri May 10 08:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Wargaming
References: <20020509145200.72134.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CDBE860.6020502@magpiesnest.co.uk>

Paul Walker wrote:

> A question for all you wargaming guru's out there. 
> What is the best way to get involved in wargaming?  I
> am thinking it might be a fun thing to do, but I would
> like to find out before I spend too much money.  So
> where do I start?
> 

That's a bit like asking how you start learning to walk - a pretty big 
topic to deal with in a small post. What I can do is give you a few 
pointers:-

1. Do you live near a games club?
Usually places like colleges or especially universities will have one. 
If not, try Military Modelling magazine (in the UK) or the local 
equivalent and they may have ads for clubs in your area.

2. Do you have a particular fondness for any eras or type of warfare?
The two most popular are probably the Napoleonic "horse and musket" 
era and the "fantasy/magic" style such as Warhammer. Science-fiction 
games such as Warhammer 40K and Snapshot are quite popular too. Of 
course, you do get the odd one or two (like myself) that really go for 
naval battles...the point is to know what you are interested in doing.

3. Do you intend to play mostly with others or to play solo games?
If the former, then you need to find the players - these may be either 
"face to face", which means they need to be fairly local, or "PBE", 
which means that they will play using the 'Net. In either case, 
looking through the UseNet newsgroups for a wargames group would be a 
good start. If (again like me) you are happy playing solo, the it is a 
good idea to contact the Solo Wargamers Association - they have a 
website somewhere, but I forget the URI.

Whatever you decide, the time will come when you need to get the 
models out...and that means you need somewhere to put them. So right 
now is a good time to see how much space you have for a table and what 
scale would be the best to fit on it. As a rough guide, for 25mm 
models you really need at least 6 foot by 4 foot (with room off-table 
for the bits and pieces). If you have less than that, then you'd be 
better off going for 15mm scale but if you are **really** short of 
space then you can go for 5mm (like my Dark Ages armies).

hope all that helps.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 09:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri May 10 08:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: ISSDEC: May Competition
Message-ID: <3CDBE8C8.EA166D0E@mail.cswnet.com>

Logistics and Endurance, for HG2:

>>If anyone else has any ideas on endurance feel free to share them
>>with the group...
Anthony Colosetti writes:
>According to Beltstrike's Belter's Handbook pg. 3
>"150 person-weeks of life support supplies take up one ton of cargo >space and cost Cr150,000."

Oh yeah. Thats one of my most favorite adventures.

Lets see:

>9500dt ship, 5dt worth missiles/sandcasters, 60dt worth fighters,
>200dt worth cutters. Total crew incl marines and scientists=201

Ship has 672dt allocated to stores.

150 person weeks=1dt, 1x201crew=201dt, 672stores divided by 201=
3.34, 3.34x150weeks=501weeks, 501weeks divided by 52=9.63 years

However, does not include ammunition for missleracks/sandcasters.
Also does not take into account annual maintenance.

Recaping:
>>Using Walt Smiths' "Logistics in High Guard: Optional rules for 
>>fleet supply in High Guard and Trillion Credit Squadron" available
>>on the web somewhere.
>>Ship requires 56dt stores per month, 672dt for one year.

>>Using L. Guatneys' "Ref's Notes: High Guard and TCS Campaigns,"
>>available in JTAS no24 pg24-42
>>Ship requires 95dt stores for 5 years, 672dt for 35.368 years.
>>Does not include ammunition for missile racks or sandcasters.

Another example: 
The Type S Scout
100dt hull,1dt worth missle/sandcaster/beam laser combo, up to 8 crew,
3dt for stores.

Using Walt Smiths' figures, .64 dt per week, total 4.68 weeks.
If we eliminate munitions from this, it would be .54 dt per week.
If we dump the air/raft, it would be .5dt per week.
That would get us 6 weeks of endurance.

Using Beltstrikes' figures, 18.75 eight person weeks per ton, total
1.08years.
Does not include munitions or annual maintenance.

Using L.Guatneys' figures, 1dt stores 5 years, total 15 years.
Does not include munitions.

Keep those thoughts coming folks...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 09:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri May 10 08:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Vacc Suit
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA227AF@USCHM203>

 "MJ Dougherty" wrote:

>which resulted in me mis-spelling Vacuum throughout my entire schooling....

I still do.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 09:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May 10 08:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <f3qmdu4uevu2v8grn8jv2tlsvek1agd92q@4ax.com>
References: <20020510043707.B4871279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <f3qmdu4uevu2v8grn8jv2tlsvek1agd92q@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <m3it5wro7n.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:
>
> Neither 'Crusty' nor 'Sunbeard' was objecting to the 'chaff'; the
> problem that they perceive--and which, quite frankly, I agree
> with--is that we seem to _prefer_ the chaff to the actual 'signal.'

That's the whole point of an unmoderated mailing list.  It's a place
for people who enjoy a product to get together and chat about it and
about their commons concerns.

Once again, this is why I opposed--and do still oppose--tml-chat so
much.  If we wanted to be on-topic, all the time, it'd be a moderated
list, and maybe have 3 messages a month.  And there'd be a void in our
lives, and there'd be a TML somewhere out there, by another name.

> The problem is that we apparently aren't able to _sustain_ a thread
> _based_ on those contributions.

Again, that's the nature of things.  A good contribution doesn't need
comment, and a poor one doesn't merit it.  Hence the TML Black Hole of
Quality.

> As a small example: This thread has already gone through more
> messages than my EXPLICIT REQUEST for people to comment on the ideas
> for Traveller-related topics to discuss on IRC, and to suggest times
> when they'd like to try to get together and _discuss_ those topics
> in real time (albeit not face-to-face).  And worse, this _message_
> has more text than the totality of responses to my initial post on
> that thread.

Quite frankly, that's because people find this thread more
interesting.  Else we'd not devote this much time & typing to it.

> Is this the image we want to leave people with?

I don't care what image the list has.  I enjoy it; I enjoy reading the
comments; I enjoy the discussions; I have a fun time.  Plenty of
others seem to as well.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Al masi qam!  Hakan qa'am!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 10:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May 10 09:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020510143015.55988.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020510143015.55988.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3elgkro29.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

allensh <allensh@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> 1.) Adventure ideas for Traveller
> 2.) Interesting ideas for worlds for Traveller
> 3.) New technology for Traveller
> 4.) Starships for Traveller
> 5.) new alien races for Traveller.
> 6.) tips on Gamemastering, specfically related to Traveller.

Ah, so you want free game supplements.  We've got that here
(c.f. Whipsnade's brilliant Wounded Colossus).  The price demanded by
the contributors seems to be the ability to chat.  Don't want that?
Then feel free to go to your FLGS and order the collected works of
Messrs. Miller, Wiseman and Dougherty.  You'll find nothing but
on-topic goodness there.

> In short, while you may find long dissertations on swords and such
> interesting, I find that they do absolutely nothing to enhance my
> enjoyment of the Traveller RPG and setting.

And this list exists solely for _your_ enjoyment, then?

> There are, I'm quite sure, mailing lists for haggling over the
> miniutae of weapons from various stages of history.  I don't feel
> that this list should be one of them.

A) it was on-topic, referencing the use of swords in Traveller

B) the kill-thread command is useful

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cristo Resucita!  En Verdad Resucita!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 10:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri May 10 09:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
References: <20020510144340.74678.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CDBF286.6080302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Paul Walker wrote:

> How do the rest of you handle this?  I had this come
> up as a player in an early game.  My original
> character had been fried (I posted about this earlier)
> and were in rehab.  The back up character had combat
> engineering skill.  At the time, I hated what the GM
> did, but now I see his reasoning.


It was rather poor gm'ing in my opinion.

> I was a gaming novice and didn't know what combat
> engineering was much less what sort of traps and
> guards I could implement around our camp area.  So I
> asked what my character would do.  My GM said "You
> tell me."  He played it out that it didn't matter so
> much what I did, but whatever it was would have my
> combat engineering skill associated with its success.
> 
> Now, while I agree with association of the success of
> the traps and such with my PC's skill, I still wish I
> had been given more info as to what to do.  My
> association with military and such was from a few
> movies and TV shows, and I was clueless.

We've always made a distinction between 'what the character knows' and 
'what the player knows'...typically, it goes like 'Hey Ricardo has xyz 
skill, which means he should know about this, but Bruce is clueless..."

It's up to the GM to describe what the character would know about a 
situation, having that skill.

Otherwise roleplaying is reduced to rollplaying: "I check for traps" 
<roll roll roll>.

Just dumping you there isn't going to help, if you (the player) don't 
know enough to ask the right questions (as you the character), 
Combat-Engineering F isn't going to do you any good unless the GM helps 
you along.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 10:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May 10 09:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Overwrought GMs, Munckins, Heroes, et al
Message-ID: <200205101635.FYU02446@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I had a side thought - what if a lot of munchkins who play 
these heavy duty characters are really just playing 
archetypes instead of real characters?  You know, in the same 
way that Ayn Rand (don't - now don't get started on her, 
she's OT) had cardboard character archetypes in her novels.

Maybe we should read more Joseph Campbell when we sit down to 
write an adventure.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 10:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 10 09:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <m3elgkro29.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020510143015.55988.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CDBB4FC.8629.99C819@localhost>

Hi all

Ok I guess I should delurk and admit that I agree with alot of 
Swordy and Allen.  I would rather see posting thats adds to my 
gaming experince and or setting.  And the claim that this is only 
trying to get free gaming materials is pure ranting and insulting.  

The one thing about gaming, since its birth, is that it is a 
community where you can design and share your own game 
materials. This is what me Allen and many others are asking just 
share in the gaming life.

I would love to see adventure ideas or even just hearing about your 
game nite. How about a cool new character concept or allien.  It is 
because this stuff is not talked about that I lurk.  

All thats seems to be posted is stuff about political theory Today, 
swords, US Law and vacc suit spelling debates with little obv 
traveller notes stuck at the bottem. If any thing posts here should 
be the reverse large discussions of Traveller and little obvs real life 
paragraphs at the end. 

Finally to argue that the reason why these are what is covered 
because they are more interesting seems wrong.  Just check the 
number of people who posted in these topics its the same people 
posting over and over again flooding the list, and sending a bunch 
of us rolling our eyes and delating everything. I bet there are alot 
more then 12 people on this list.












On 10 May 2002, at 9:59, Robert Uhl wrote:

> allensh <allensh@yahoo.com> writes:
> > 
> > 1.) Adventure ideas for Traveller
> > 2.) Interesting ideas for worlds for Traveller
> > 3.) New technology for Traveller
> > 4.) Starships for Traveller
> > 5.) new alien races for Traveller.
> > 6.) tips on Gamemastering, specfically related to Traveller.
> 
> Ah, so you want free game supplements.  We've got that here
> (c.f. Whipsnade's brilliant Wounded Colossus).  The price demanded by
> the contributors seems to be the ability to chat.  Don't want that?
> Then feel free to go to your FLGS and order the collected works of
> Messrs. Miller, Wiseman and Dougherty.  You'll find nothing but
> on-topic goodness there.
> 
> > In short, while you may find long dissertations on swords and such
> > interesting, I find that they do absolutely nothing to enhance my
> > enjoyment of the Traveller RPG and setting.
> 
> And this list exists solely for _your_ enjoyment, then?
> 
> > There are, I'm quite sure, mailing lists for haggling over the
> > miniutae of weapons from various stages of history.  I don't feel
> > that this list should be one of them.
> 
> A) it was on-topic, referencing the use of swords in Traveller
> 
> B) the kill-thread command is useful
> 
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Cristo Resucita!  En Verdad Resucita!
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 10:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ravat Melster)
Date: Fri May 10 09:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <m3elgkro29.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020510165838.81671.qmail@web20202.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> A) it was on-topic, referencing the use of swords in
> Traveller

I just went back through the thread out of
curiousity... looks like a typical usenet pissing
contest to show who knows more about swords. About 20%
was useful for Traveller. The rest was ego blather. 
 
> B) the kill-thread command is useful

But then I would have missed the cool URL for the
sword site near the end of the thread. However, if I
were to use a kill file like you suggest, I'd weed out
about half of the chaff in that thread with just one
entry. Yours.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May 10 10:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] questions about materials posted
Message-ID: <200205101700.FYU06753@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Yes, I have a tendency to yak...

But, I've posted two ship designs (which ended up on the 
Freelance Traveller page instead of the Black Hole of the 
TML).

I also posted that I have the beginnings of a draft SOP for 
Traveller parties.  I would have posted that, but it's a huge 
Word document.  So I sent it to people who indicated that 
they were interested.  And it was about 12 people.  Hmmm.  
Not a whole lot of lurkers took the bait of a 38 page 
document.

Swordy, did you ask for a copy?  I repeat, I have plenty of 
material available - it's just far too large to post.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Fri May 10 10:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020510165838.81671.qmail@web20202.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B9014BF7.5AA83%listmom@travellercentral.com>

on 5/10/02 9:58 AM, Ravat Melster at ravatmelster@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> But then I would have missed the cool URL for the
> sword site near the end of the thread. However, if I
> were to use a kill file like you suggest, I'd weed out
> about half of the chaff in that thread with just one
> entry. Yours.

OK, time to end this thread.  We are getting way too personal here.  OT is
one thing, this is another.

Thanks

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May 10 10:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020510165838.81671.qmail@web20202.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020510165838.81671.qmail@web20202.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3adr8rkte.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Ravat Melster <ravatmelster@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> However, if I were to use a kill file like you suggest, I'd weed out
> about half of the chaff in that thread with just one entry.  Yours.

Fortunately, I labour under no such handicap.  Ker-*plonk*

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Eybershter undzer iz geshtanen!  Avade er iz ufgeshtanen!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May 10 10:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] travlib Documentation Effort
Message-ID: <m3661vsyy1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

I've been working on the documentation for travlib
<http://travtrack.sf.net/travlib/>.  Nothing very advanced, but it
might serve to give some idea of where I'm hoping to go.  The astute
will note that the documentation style if that of the gtk+ and GNOME
projects--and as such should be familiar to many.

As a reminder, travlib is a data representation library aimed towards
the Traveller universe.  It is very much a work-in-progress, but is
already fairly useful.  Both C and Scheme bindings are provided.

The library is GPLed, so please feel free to use it and modify it!

I any programmers out there have comments on the documentation, please
give me a holler.  Thanks.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Crist aras!  Crist solice aras!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:23:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May 10 10:23:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
References: <20020510143015.55988.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com> <3CDBB4FC.8629.99C819@localhost>
Message-ID: <004601c1f847$3f0b82d0$279793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I would love to see adventure ideas or even just hearing about your
> game nite. How about a cool new character concept or allien.  It is
> because this stuff is not talked about that I lurk.

... and becuase you lurk, it is not talked about?

>
> All thats seems to be posted is stuff about political theory Today,
> swords, US Law and vacc suit spelling debates with little obv
> traveller notes stuck at the bottem. If any thing posts here should
> be the reverse large discussions of Traveller and little obvs real life
> paragraphs at the end.

... okay, show us how it's done...?

>
> Finally to argue that the reason why these are what is covered
> because they are more interesting seems wrong.  Just check the
> number of people who posted in these topics its the same people
> posting over and over again flooding the list, and sending a bunch
> of us rolling our eyes and delating everything. I bet there are alot
> more then 12 people on this list.
>

This is an open list where people can post freely. You CAN  post stuff that
interests you, and see if you can start a thread that interests you.

To the people in the Swords debate, it was useful; 1: because it was about
swords in Traveller, 2: because it was about a Traveller supplement, and 3:
because it was about swords and gamers often have an interest in such
things. Your opinion may vary; that's fine with me. But I do find it strange
that people who don't post anything complain about those who do. WHY were
there so few posters? WHY was there no other debate going on?

Because everyone else was lurking and not posting.

You want the TML to be a certain thing? You want TRAVELLER to be a certain
thing?

Then make it happen.

Regards

MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:25:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May 10 10:25:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
References: <20020510144340.74678.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com> <3CDBF286.6080302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <004f01c1f847$8b462100$279793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

>
> Just dumping you there isn't going to help, if you (the player) don't
> know enough to ask the right questions (as you the character),
> Combat-Engineering F isn't going to do you any good unless the GM helps
> you along.
>

This is one reason why people often play the same types of characters.
Knowing as a player something that you could do, that your character can't,
can be teeth-grindingly frustrating.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri May 10 10:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEMECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>At 01:24 PM 5/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>That said, the number of people officially banned from the TML over the 
>>years is quite small: three (iirc), and each was given multiple chances.
>
>Leroy, Clif, and who else?

Didn't we give Doug Berry the boot?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:30:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri May 10 10:30:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Droyne
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEMECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: generalturokan@juno.com
>
>Or is it - nobody knows, cares, and any world will do???

You may not be cleared for that information, Citizen.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:30:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri May 10 10:30:56 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEMECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
>
>A question for all you wargaming guru's out there.
>What is the best way to get involved in wargaming?  I
>am thinking it might be a fun thing to do, but I would
>like to find out before I spend too much money.  So
>where do I start?

Join the San Jose Traveller group on Sunday 18 May 2002, from 11 a.m. until
whenever, at Kristian Miller's house in sunny San Jose, California.
www.traveller-ne.com for directions.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:31:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Fri May 10 10:31:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Signal to Noise Ratio
Message-ID: <B90151A2.5AB3B%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Well,

There have been many complaint about the signal-to-noise ratio on the TML.
And now the comment about this are just adding to the noise.  I've taken a
pretty hands off approach to the TML lately, so I suppose it mostly my
fault.

Here are my thought about the list.

It should be unmoderated.  I don't want a list where someone is deciding
what's appropriate.  But more to the point, it should be self moderated.
This is the Traveller mailing list, so ideally topics should be related to
the Grande Olde Game.  Now I'm just as guilty of OT posts as anyone on the
list, probably more so.  I shall try to correct this.

What is inappropriate on this list?  While there is debate among the list
members about what is OT for this list, the following does not belong on
this list at all:

Personal attack of any kind.  Flames and complaints about flame baiters
alike do not go here.  If someone has a complaint about a poster being
deliberately rude or obnoxious, please pass it on to
listmom@travellercentral.com.

Discussion of current politics that have no relation to Traveller should not
be posted here.  In general, inflammatory topics about politics, gun
control, abortion, etc.  have no place here.

I am not inclined to censor nitpicky debates about weapons, rules and the
like, as some people are actually interested in such.  I would request that
subject lines be clear enough so that people who don't want to read such
posts can determine the contents of posting and decide whether to delete
them.  Please try to keep your subject lines related to the body of your
message.

I realize that for many members, the TML represents a collection of online
friends with whom to chat about unrelated topics.  This is the purpose of
the tml-chat list. 

For those who find the noise ratio too high, I suggest they look at the web
archives.  They can then be selective about what they want to read without
being bothered by an inbox full of mail from the TML.

The listmom is always open to comments and suggestions, so please don't
hesitate to send them.

Thanks
-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri May 10 10:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] questions about materials posted
In-Reply-To: <200205101700.FYU06753@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEKHDNAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon
>
> I also posted that I have the beginnings of a draft SOP for
> Traveller parties.  I would have posted that, but it's a huge
> Word document.  So I sent it to people who indicated that
> they were interested.  And it was about 12 people.  Hmmm.
> Not a whole lot of lurkers took the bait of a 38 page
> document.

Sometimes it is hard to find the meat in this soup.

> Swordy, did you ask for a copy?  I repeat, I have plenty of
> material available - it's just far too large to post.

I would love to receive a copy, thank you.

Are you planning to put the finished product up on your BLOG site?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:33:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Fri May 10 10:33:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Request
Message-ID: <B901525D.5AB45%listmom@travellercentral.com>

In an effort to encourage some more Traveller related discussion, would
anyone care to post same?  Perhaps we can get some of our lurkers to post
Comments or questions related to the Game and kick start some OT discussions
again.
-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:34:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May 10 10:34:10 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEMECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <006801c1f848$9a7e5970$279793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> >At 01:24 PM 5/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >>That said, the number of people officially banned from the TML over the
> >>years is quite small: three (iirc), and each was given multiple chances.
> >
> >Leroy, Clif, and who else?
>
> Didn't we give Doug Berry the boot?

Presumably he gave it back at some point, then? Coz that's him there! There!
Hiding behind his monitor with a false moustache!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:37:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May 10 10:37:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Request
References: <B901525D.5AB45%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008501c1f849$368bd7c0$279793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> In an effort to encourage some more Traveller related discussion, would
> anyone care to post same?  Perhaps we can get some of our lurkers to post
> Comments or questions related to the Game and kick start some OT
discussions
> again.
>

OKay.

What period/setting would folks most like to see a sourcebook on?

What Big Mystery/Unanswered Question would you like to see a huge adventure
slowly unravelling?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri May 10 10:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Lite
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020506102238.02278ba0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEKJDNAA.tml@downport.com>

Is this thread dead or is there interest in actually running with this
project? Looks like a very decent freebie PDF that could be linked of placed
on many web sites.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> On Behalf Of "Derek Wildstar"
>
> I basically concur: it looks quite do-able.  I would go for the CT rules
> set; although it's old, it also has the advantage that it's uncomplicated
> and takes very little to explain.  Basic character generation,
> skills, and
> interpersonal combat should be do-able in just a few pages.  One
> possibility for prior service (which I have used in CT
> campaigns), is to do the following:

 [snip lots of good stuff]



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:42:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri May 10 10:42:08 2002
Subject: [TML] FFE6 has done landed!
Message-ID: <3CDC05C5.C920AEB@mail.cswnet.com>

Oh man! I am sooo happy! Thank you Marc Miller. Thank you USPS.

Check it out, stuff for the old GDW space games.

I'll be HIGH for the next week.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri May 10 10:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEMHCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>This is why digests are dumb.  With a good mail reader, you can
>receive every message individually and _automatically_ file it in an
>appropriate folder.  Then you can read that folder once a day--or once
>a week, if that's your thing--as you like, with full threading &c.

I kind of like the digest.  I just scroll through and when I see something
interesting, I read it.  I hope I'm not deflating anybody's ego too
painfully to say that I -- and probably most of us -- don't feel any
compulsion to read every word that everyone has written, or even to read
every digest.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 11:50:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri May 10 10:50:27 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEMECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CDC0833.6000007@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>>
>>At 01:24 PM 5/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>>That said, the number of people officially banned from the TML over the 
>>>years is quite small: three (iirc), and each was given multiple chances.
>>
>>Leroy, Clif, and who else?
> 
> 
> Didn't we give Doug Berry the boot?


No no no it was das boot. He plays with it in the bathtub, making 
b-b-b-b-b noises.

It keeps the penguins distracted.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 12:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri May 10 11:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEMHCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205101056510.917-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 10 May 2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> >From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
> >
> >This is why digests are dumb.  With a good mail reader, you can
> >receive every message individually and _automatically_ file it in an
> >appropriate folder.  Then you can read that folder once a day--or once
> >a week, if that's your thing--as you like, with full threading &c.
> 
> I kind of like the digest.  I just scroll through and when I see something
> interesting, I read it.  I hope I'm not deflating anybody's ego too
> painfully to say that I -- and probably most of us -- don't feel any
> compulsion to read every word that everyone has written, or even to read
> every digest.

Goodness no!  This is why I wish people would be very clear on their
subject lines.  If the top line and subject line don't grab me, I hit
delete while I'm still in shell.

I don't like digests, though, and if I get a server set up where I don't
have to go thru topica or some other service, I'm not going to offer them
on any of my lists.

To reply to something in a digest you have to delete a lot of @#$@ and
remember to change the subject line.  Many people forget, which is
annoying as all get out.

I don't want to wade thru stuff I'm not interested in to get to the stuff
I am interested in. I use threading and filtering so I can read what I
want to, when I want to.

Kiri  ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 12:00:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri May 10 11:00:29 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <008501c1f849$368bd7c0$279793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMOEKKDNAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> On Behalf Of MJ Dougherty
>
> What period/setting would folks most like to see a sourcebook on?

Would it be possible to make sourcebooks on certain subsectors, including a
set of timeline highlights, instead of a time period? I tend to use content
and ignore "milieu", Era, etc.

> What Big Mystery/Unanswered Question would you like to see a huge
> adventure slowly unravelling?

Something completely new might be even better.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 12:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri May 10 11:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #510 - 24 msgs
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA227B2@USCHM203>

>"MJ Dougherty" wrote:
>What period/setting would folks most like to see a sourcebook on?

The Interstellar Wars.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 12:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 10 11:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
In-Reply-To: <004f01c1f847$8b462100$279793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <3CDBC5AA.12468.DAF302@localhost>

On 10 May 2002, at 18:23, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> >
> > Just dumping you there isn't going to help, if you (the player)
> > don't know enough to ask the right questions (as you the character),
> > Combat-Engineering F isn't going to do you any good unless the GM
> > helps you along.
> >
> 
> This is one reason why people often play the same types of characters.
> Knowing as a player something that you could do, that your character
> can't, can be teeth-grindingly frustrating.


Al ot of people not only make up characters based on what they 
know in real life to make the skill use easier but also they make up 
characters based on their knowledge of the rules.  This is more 
common in complex games like Role Master. People specialize in 
character creation which leads to min maxing and Munchkins if 
they go to far.  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 12:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May 10 11:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
Message-ID: <200205101803.FYW10096@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Swordy" says
>> What Big Mystery/Unanswered Question would you like to see 
>>a huge adventure slowly unravelling?
>
>Something completely new might be even better.
>

Well, I have a Big Mystery/Unanswered Question unravelling in 
my Corridor PBEM.  Go to 
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/2002-
April/thread.html

and start with The Briefing

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 12:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri May 10 11:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEMECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020510180614.13030.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> Join the San Jose Traveller group on Sunday 18 May
> 2002, from 11 a.m. until
> whenever, at Kristian Miller's house in sunny San
> Jose, California.
> www.traveller-ne.com for directions.
> 

This post and the one from Doug about his encounter
with the anti-military woman makes me more interested
in at least visiting California.  Don't know if
someone like me would last there much longer than a
vacation trip though. :)


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 12:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Fri May 10 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval Command Question
References: <001701c1f769$7fc49160$d1317b83@housing.res.kent.edu>
Message-ID: <004f01c1f84d$8df68c40$d1317b83@housing.res.kent.edu>

Silly to reply to my own thread but I realized there was another question I
needed answered (still waiting for some feedback on my first question as
well <laugh>).  Anyways...

How long does a ship's captain remain aboard as her CO?  In other words what
is a captain's typical tour of duty aboard a vessel?  One year?  Two years?
Five years?  The reason I ask is I'm working on a character with previous
Naval background and want to have a good idea of how long they served aboard
the ship as Captain before retiring.

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 12:15:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May 10 11:15:28 2002
Subject: [TML] FFE6 has done landed!
In-Reply-To: <3CDC05C5.C920AEB@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CDC05C5.C920AEB@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <m3wuubrhtq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
>
> Oh man! I am sooo happy! Thank you Marc Miller. Thank you USPS.
> 
> Check it out, stuff for the old GDW space games.

Cool!  I'll have to grab it when I get the spare cash.  Not bloody
likely--IBM have just announced mass layoffs:-(

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Krishhti Unjall!  Vertet Unjall!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 12:15:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri May 10 11:15:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Request
In-Reply-To: <B901525D.5AB45%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020510181454.14598.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

Might I request some discussion of the future of
ISSDEC?  I am somewhat disturbed by the lack of
response.  I won't post my complete feelings on the
recent thread, but suffice it to say that I think MJ
is right.  I am trying to keep Traveller topics alive
here on the list.  One way is through ISSDEC.  So...

What would you like to see in the future for this
project?  What ships would you like to cover, and how
should it be done?

Paul

--- Listmom <listmom@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> In an effort to encourage some more Traveller
> related discussion, would
> anyone care to post same?  Perhaps we can get some



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 12:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May 10 11:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Digests
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205101056510.917-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205101056510.917-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <m3sn4zrhs1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
> 
> To reply to something in a digest you have to delete a lot of @#$@
> and remember to change the subject line.  Many people forget, which
> is annoying as all get out.

This list is actually pretty good--a church one I'm on (one with many
technologically non-astute posters) is _awful_ with regards to digest
quoting.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Voskrese!  Voistinu Voskrese!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 12:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May 10 11:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Request
Message-ID: <200205101820.FYY00111@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Paul Walker says
>Might I request some discussion of the future of
>ISSDEC?  I am somewhat disturbed by the lack of
>response.  I won't post my complete feelings on the
>recent thread, but suffice it to say that I think MJ
>is right.  I am trying to keep Traveller topics alive
>here on the list.  One way is through ISSDEC.  So...
>
>What would you like to see in the future for this
>project?  What ships would you like to cover, and how
>should it be done?
>

I would like to participate in designing ships - but I'm 
running a PBEM, and writing a lot of other material trying to 
rebuild a campaign, grow a new big mystery, expand an SOP, 
etc.

BTW, for those of you who get the SOP, I'll need some 
commentary and editing.  Right now, it's written for the TL12 
and below crowd (when people aren't running around in battle 
dress firing plasma guns).  
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 12:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri May 10 11:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Serial Killers (was: Hasty words)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEMJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>How is something like this dealt with in the Imperium?  Do the planets just
>have to sort it out for themselves.  Does the criminal get away with it
>forever.
[referring to the travelling serial killer]

>Another class of criminal that comes to mind is large scale organized
crime.
>With resources and cash, they can commit mayhem and then move on to the
next
>world.
>
>In both of these cases, it seems to me that there is some Imperial interest
>in dealing with these crimes.  Perhaps not.  I'd be curious to hear people
>opinions.

Here's how I handle it:  The Imperium (mostly through the MoJ) and the
subsector ducal governments cooperate with each other and with member
states' law enforcement authorities by gathering and sharing intelligence
about interstellar criminal activities, and sometimes providing other
support, if requested and possible.

MoJ has limited personnel resources, but can provide some Imperial subsidies
for these regional law enforcement groups.  The bulk of the work is done at
the ducal level.

What constitutes "criminal activities" depends primarily on politics, but
political realities in any given region usually give rise to some broad
agreement about where these intelligence resources should be spent.  After
all, an act that constitutes a crime on World #1 may actually be a mandatory
act on World #2.  Still, all activities occur within the general
feudalocapitalist context of the Imperium, and that context's imperatives
include state protection of property rights and individual health and
safety.  Worlds that do not follow those mandates will tend to become
politically and economically marginalized within the interstellar community.

As a practical matter, the ducal authorities will choose whom and what to
investigate and monitor based on requests from local governments,
suggestions from MoJ, and the ducal authorities' own ongoing intelligence
gathering and analysis.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 12:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri May 10 11:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Players that give you the sh*ts
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEMJCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au>
>
>Any suggestions?

Find a new group.  Chemistry is critical to all human relationships.
Role-playing is not a mandatory activity, so if you don't like the people,
find people you like.  They are out there.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 12:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Fri May 10 11:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMOEKKDNAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <007a01c1f852$03ad99c0$d1317b83@housing.res.kent.edu>

<quote>

> What period/setting would folks most like to see a sourcebook on?

Would it be possible to make sourcebooks on certain subsectors, including a
set of timeline highlights, instead of a time period? I tend to use content
and ignore "milieu", Era, etc.

</quote>

I like the idea of the sector based sourcebook.  A list of changes in
government and tech levels on certain significant planets and maps showing
boundary changes through the years (much like the Spinward Marches maps from
SMC).

To add on to this, I'd also like to suggest something some (many?) of you
will take to be blasphemy...  How about alternate universes...  I don't mean
alternate timelines, I mean full scale settings.  Personally I have two
separate Traveller games.  One set in the very familiar Imperium and another
set in a universe that was highly inspired by The Mote in God's Eye.

To me Traveller is both a setting and a system.  Not mechanics ( I use a
homebrew system with it's roots in D6 for my mechanics) but it is things
like Vacc Suit, Air/Raft, four year terms, 100dton Scout ships...that's what
defines Traveller for me.

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 12:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri May 10 11:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Player/Character knowledge (Was: Munchkins, et al)
Message-ID: <006a01c1f854$a4ac9680$662cf7a5@pctframen>

Another problem when dealing with what a PC knows as opposed to what his/her
player knows is what is probably the most problematic of all the abilities:
Intelligence. It is usually ignored during a game, except when a task calls
for it.

I've been kicking around the idea of allowing the Intelligence
characteristic as a floating DM, much like the tactics pool in
MegaTraveller. The idea would be that you could draw points out of your
Intelligence pool to act as a DM to a task after you rolled for success.
Once drawn in such a fashion, those points would be unavailable for the rest
of the session.

So if Dirk hault-Resnick had an Intelligence of 5, he could draw three
points to help make his Bribery roll, and then later on draw two points to
avoid an accident with his air/raft. But then he'd be out of points for the
rest of the session.

My initial feeling is that even combat tasks shouldn't be exempted, but I'm
willing to be dissuaded.

Also, social standing could be used in a similar fashion for interpersonal
tasks/reaction rolls only...

Any comments?

Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 13:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri May 10 12:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law
In-Reply-To: <20020510022732.96422.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020510142615.04535208@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:27 PM 5/9/2002, James Ramsay wrote:
>What about crimes commited in space?

IMTU, crimes committed on a civilian vessel in deep space (and in jump 
space) fall under Imperial jurisdiction, and are enforced by the captain of 
the ship and ranking Imperial nobility (if present).  In most cases the 
suspects and evidence are held until the next port of call, where they are 
turned over to the Imperial authorities at the starport.  However, the 
captain is authorized to take whatever measures as are required to ensure 
the safety of the ship, passengers, and crew.

Crimes committed on a civilian vessel that is not in deep space are subject 
to the law of the place where they are located.  Under normal 
circumstances, this will be within the extrality zone of a starport, where 
Imperial law applies.  A starship in planetary airspace (or on the ground 
outside of a starport) is subject to that planet's laws.

Crimes committed on a military vessel are subject to military law, 
regardless of where the vessel happens to be.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 13:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May 10 12:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Player/Character knowledge (Was: Munchkins, et al)
Message-ID: <200205101909.FYY06987@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Fred Ramen" asks
>Subject: [TML] Player/Character knowledge (Was: Munchkins, 
et al)  
>To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
<snip about hwo to deal with skills vs. player knowledge>
>Any comments?
>

I haven't addressed it in a skill/task resolution system, but 
in my current incarnation of a combat system for Traveller 
(yes, I consult with the Dark Ones), I often run into players 
who are tactically "good".  Their characters, OTOH, may have 
no skill in Tactics.  Or Leader, for that matter.  IMCS (In 
My Combat System?) each person gets not only an action count 
for a combat round, but a maximum number of sequential 
actions that can be performed before they have to stop and 
think.  The time required to think of a new series of actions 
depends on many factors, but is grossly affected (shortened) 
by your Tactics skill.  If you have Leader, you can lead 
others and transfer your tactical ability to them.  Thus, 
combat proceeds as a series of moves followed by some 
thinking time (reloading, etc), followed by a series of 
moves.  The people who can cycle faster than the other team 
have a distinct advantage, even if they don't have that great 
an expertise in real life (i.e., they might be a great 
wargamer, but their character is not moving and cycling fast 
enough to get anywhere).

At the worst, if you're really slow (mentally and 
physically), and have no tactical ability, and no one in your 
group is a Leader with some tactical ability, you can change 
your character's name to Skeet.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 13:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri May 10 12:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fleet Logistics (was re: ISSDEC: May Competition)
Message-ID: <F41Rc0UiYZ5UQchhpUD0000aba9@hotmail.com>

Dan Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> wrote:
>Another example:
>The Type S Scout
>100dt hull,1dt worth missle/sandcaster/beam laser combo, up to 8 crew,
>3dt for stores.
>
>Using Walt Smiths' figures, .64 dt per week, total 4.68 weeks.
>If we eliminate munitions from this, it would be .54 dt per week.
>If we dump the air/raft, it would be .5dt per week.
>That would get us 6 weeks of endurance.

Hmmm, seems that my ideas for starship logistics have
a small "reality check" problem, if the canonical
Scout Ship has such short logistical legs.

Ummm, ah...got it...my figures only apply to warships
on active combat patrols!!  Yeah, that's it... ;-)

>Keep those thoughts coming folks...

Someday I'll get around to putting some more thoughts
behind that first draft of mine, still up at
http://users.hartwick.edu/~smithw/fleetlogistics.htm

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 13:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May 10 12:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A Short Guide To Law Aboard Ship
Message-ID: <200205101914.FYY07829@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

There's a thread going on about laws applying aboard ship.

There's an old RU piece called the Rules of Oleron, at 
http://www.admiraltylawguide.com/documents/oleron.html

Now, I wouldn't want to start to write Admiralty Law, but... 
this would be a good piece to translate into a TU form.  

Raise your hands, how many of you have been hired to run a 
ship, and have given thought to selling a laser turret or two 
just to get some spare cash?  Against the Rules of Oleron, my 
good friend!

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 13:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Fri May 10 12:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
Message-ID: <20020510191530.21418.qmail@web10606.mail.yahoo.com>

quote:

     I would love to see adventure ideas or even just
hearing about your game nite. How about a cool new
character concept or allien.  It is because this stuff
is not talked about that I lurk.


... so decloak and post, I'd love to read any
contribution, just don't report the minutia (snack
choices, who rolled the best, etc.) of your game nite
and how everybody was going on about (insert TV/movie
title here) that has no relevance to Traveller at all.
Keep lurking and somebody might post an alien
(somebody did a nice writeup just days ago, did you
see it?, why no compliment or reply, they were looking
for feedback).

Dang now he's got me rambling. Forgiveness TML?


quote:

     All thats seems to be posted is stuff about
political theory Today, swords, US Law and vacc suit
spelling debates with little obv traveller notes stuck
at the bottem.

... which for me help provide a clearer image of a
more "real" world to game in, making the experience
better for all when I play or GM. Specifically to the
VACC suit point (since I started it) judging from the
postings a few campaigns will have a little more
colour for one piece of common gear, and no doubt the
ideas will get applied to other products in game as
well.

Argh, I can't escape it, he's hoping for good game
material and I keep replying to this in a totally non
game, defensive nature :) so to quote MJD

"okay, show us how it's done"

The battledress manual manipulator protection piece is
thrown down, do you accept. Please do, all posts
(Traveller) should be welcome. Debate is healthy.
There are no stupid questions (well there are, but 
only if you have all the answers). Looking forward to
your contributions.

DB



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 13:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J. Paul Sanders)
Date: Fri May 10 12:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMOEKKDNAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <008501c1f849$368bd7c0$279793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020510114642.00a78ec0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 02:01 PM 5/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > On Behalf Of MJ Dougherty
> >
> > What period/setting would folks most like to see a sourcebook on?

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but for me - The Imperium has been done to 
death - the amount of setting/historical minutia that's been detailed is 
staggering... I'd like to see something less background specific and more 
general...

How about a sourcebook detailing the STEPS needed for the exploration, 
colonization, administration, and defense of previously 'uninhabited' 
sectors (*not* details such as how Duke Grimwald is the newly settled 
sectors Overlord, as well as fifth cousin of the Emperor, wears pink 
panties, and suffers from recurrent boils on his ass) - sort of a 
sector-wide "World Tamers Handbook" ("Sector Tamer's Handbook" ???). 
Chapters could cover such sector specific things as exploring, opening to 
colonization, organizing mass migrations (constructing/operating 
exploration, colonization, support, etc. ships), establishing a sector 
govt. (not necessarily Imperial or Solomani govts. either - something 
non-Imperial, non-Fascist.. say peoples fleeing such nonsense by heading 
Rimward of the Solomani Sphere would be nice for a change).

Such a sourcebook that would allow my PCs to set out for parts unknown and 
run a complete campaign in a new semi-blank sector that would allow me, the 
ref., having to generate absolutely everything from scratch - this is what 
I am talking about.

L8r,
Paul


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri May 10 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What about crimes commited in space? (was: Imperial law)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEMKCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

Crime in space is an interesting and complex question.  I think I and others
have written about it before, so if you find articles in the archives and
have questions, please post them.  If I have time later today, I'll post
another dissertation on the subject.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 13:25:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 10 12:25:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law (Was: Hasty words)
Message-ID: <87.1b5189ce.2a0d786c@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/05/02 01:28:36 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk 
writes:

<Quote>
Charles (CHam628781@aol.com) writes:

>In a message dated 08/05/02 02:42:28 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
><Quote>
>My suggestion was "The unsanctioned termination of a sapient being". The
>'unsanctioned' bit gave the Imperium it's wiggle room, since the Imperium
>reserves the right to decide who is and isn't qualified to sanction
>terminations (basically any government recognized by the Imperium).
>
></Quote>
>
>One problem I have with the idea of Imperial Law is universality. I think we
>would all agree that any Imperium wide legal code must be applicable 
anywhere
>and to any individual or company.

I don't see how that would necessarily be the case.

>In this however lies the seeds of the destruction of any concept of
>Imperial Law since, I would contend, in a society such as the Imperium
>universal definitions of pretty much anything is impossible.

You just make it broad enough and leave it to the various nobles and judges
to interpret it. It's only a problem if you expect absolute justice.

>Let's take murder as our example because the root problem of when is a
>killing murder also shows up the problems in things such as property law. 
The
>problem is of course defining whether a being can be offered the protection
>of law. The above example of a potential definition of murder shows the
>problem well because on the surface it seems reasonable but on examination 
is
>shown to be unworkable.
>
>We cannot use "sapience" as a definition of those protected by law for a
>number of reasons. Sapience does not apply to all members of a species at 
all
>times.

Not a problem. I was assuming (no doubt influenced by the unwarranted
assumption that everybody else also reads H. Beam Piper ;-) that the
Imperium would define what species were considered sapient ("Talk and
build fires" ;-) and that any member of such a species, sapient or not,
would be protected.

There is some evidence to support that. There is a quote somewhere where
Cleon I's defines those beings enjoying protected status in the Imperium.
I forget the exact words, but the main purpose is to limit that protection
to sapient _lifeforms_. Thus a self-aware machine is not protected because
it is not a lifeform. We also know that the Imperium consider Chirpers semi-
sapient and entitled to protection under the law, much to the resentment
of the people of Vanejen (_RSG_).

</Quote>

I absolutely agree, the Imperium defines what is sapient and probably has a 
list. However the problem I have is the method the Imperium uses for deciding 
sapience. I don't think it can, and as a result it is reliant on the 
judgement of the Emperor in the end. This isn't a problem IMTU where worlds 
are treated as parishes, able to make there own bye-laws but subserviant in 
the end to Imperial law, which, as I have said in the past, is precedent 
driven.

<<SNIP>>

<Quote>
>If it takes the sapient species route it must condemn such killings as 
murder
>and consider any Hiver who drops spawn in an Imperial jurisdiction at least
>guilty of child endangerment.

'Child endangerment'? What makes you think the Imperium would have the
concept of child endangerment at all?
</Quote>

Because the dominant species of the Imperium are all High K. They invest many 
years in the raising of their offspring.

<Quote>
>...and narrow enough not to include faux sapients.

What is a faux sapient?
</Quote>

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, tastes like chicken :)

<Quote>
>Furthermore any definition must be simple enough to be applicable on some
>backwater with limited access to high tech equipment and must be
>applicable only after a limited encounter with a new species.

Only if the Emperor thinks that is important.
</Quote>

IMNSHO the Emperor will always consider it important because the last thing 
you want to do is antagonise someone more powerful than you by accident.

<Quote>
>I can't think of such a definition and there is evidence from canon that
>the Imperium can't either.*

I'd be interested in hearing that evidence.
</Quote>

T4 "Aliens Archive" pg. 78 the Nunclees.

<Quote>
>If the Imperium cannot universally define murder, and it is my contention
>that it can't,

I see no problem with the one I've offered. Granted it is so vague that it
requires interpretation, but that's what Imperial nobles are for.

</Quote>

Vague to the point of uselessness, I fear, because it can have no meaningful 
definitions :)

<Quote>
>...then it is deep trouble because all law must be based on the
>ability to define who or what is protected.

Ask your friendly neighborhood noble and he'll tell you.

>...With no universal definition of murder there can be no universal
>definition of property...

That one went right over my head. I don't see it and I don't see the need
for a universal definition of property for that matter.

>...and I leave it to your imagination where that might lead.

Please elucidate.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk

</Quote>

OK. When a character purchases a starship he borrows the money from the bank. 
The starship is property and the bank owns it. But who owns the bank and how 
does the bank decide that the species to which the character belongs can be 
lent money? On our world that's not a difficult question because there are a 
limited number of sapient species and the non-human ones are too intelligent 
to get mixed up with banks. In the Imperium however there has to be a clear 
definition of who (what?) can actually own property or nobody will know where 
they stand. 

More importantly that definition must be universal because if it is not a 
(for example) female starship owner could land in the Misogyny of Blumblat 
and discovers because women can't hold property her starship now belongs to 
the Grand Plonker himself.

Hope that helps.  

Charles

"Rule One: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly 
smiling men!"

Terry Pratchett, The Thief of Time

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 13:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Swordy)
Date: Fri May 10 12:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020510114642.00a78ec0@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEKODNAA.tml@downport.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> On Behalf Of J. Paul Sanders
> > What period/setting would folks most like to see a sourcebook on?
>
> I'm sure I'm in the minority, but for me - The Imperium has been done to
> death - the amount of setting/historical minutia that's been detailed is
> staggering... I'd like to see something less background specific and more
> general...

"Me too"

> Such a sourcebook that would allow my PCs to set out for parts unknown and
> run a complete campaign in a new semi-blank sector that would allow me,
the
> ref., having to generate absolutely everything from scratch -
> this is what I am talking about.

Something new, someplace else. And it doesn't have to be a whole sector. A
subsector with twenty places to visit is a huge undertaking.

For instance, my first Ref in 1978 had made a Gateway style rock for us to
start from and threw his d6,d6 on a simple encounter-style chart for our
destination that session. 36 worlds was a challenge and many were taken
right out of the pages of his favorite books, but we had a blast on 5 out of
6 worlds (worlds 61-66 were all very nasty places).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 13:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri May 10 12:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020510114642.00a78ec0@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020510195039.81193.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "J. Paul Sanders" <jps64@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> ass) - sort of a 
> sector-wide "World Tamers Handbook" ("Sector Tamer's
> Handbook" ???). 

Along these same lines, I would like to see a "High
Level Game" that allows for the development of a
planet.

Actually, this goes really well with several of the
posted requests.  I mean, people were asking for an
extended history of a subsector.  That would involve
the extended history of the planets.  For example, how
did that planet go from C766687-9 to A7679AA-D?  When
and how did the settlement of the GG moons take place?

A game setting on the high level that allows players
to play a planet and see their planet grow as they
deal with their planetary neighbors.  All of this
either in or out of the OTU.

I think this, played solo, could allow a GM to detail
a subsector sized gaming environment fairly easily.  I
mean, the notes from these games would be "landgrabs"
of the worlds in the subsector.

I know that TNE's World Tamer's Handbook dealt with
colony level, but IIRC, it fell apart at much larger
size than a smallish colony.  Once the colony got
large enough to spread to different locations, the
system didn't work as well.

I'm not sure what is in GT:First In or in DGP's World
Tamer's Handbook, but maybe they too can lend some
information to the topic.

While I'm not stepping up to write such a book, I
would gladly work with others interested in hashing
out the rules for such a game.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 14:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Fri May 10 13:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval Command Question
Message-ID: <001501c1f85e$740feea0$c8aa5940@dixienet.com>

Anthony....

I treat Command options as a -4- year set...Naval Rules implies a one year
tour...

reuping is only required if a poor roll was done during the four
years....assignment may be to a  single ship or trasfered to another ship
during that four year period.
--John Strain
-------------------
From: "Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu>

How long does a ship's captain remain aboard as her CO? --Anthony Colosetti




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 14:10:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Fri May 10 13:10:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44L0.0205101609190.28830-100000@shell.core.com>

On 9 May 2002 at 12:43, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >My group typically hates to lose a character and goes to
> >great lengths to plan, plot, equip, etc. for a mission,

> Also, there's not going to be a way to complete an adventure
> on your own -- regardless of how many skills you have.  You
> can't be everywhere, and you can't think of everything.

Ah, but I think that's part of the what my friends enjoy - planning
for the mission.  Not too much as we do eventually recognize it can be
overdone and we're wasting time, but it's a challenge to them
to work with what they've got and try to find solutions or plans
that give the best chances in a given timeframe.  It also means they
walk around "prepared" - well, the military types anyway.

-- 
Rob

'enlarged to show texture.'


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri May 10 13:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
References: <000b01c1f79d$e24603d0$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <3CDBD4D5.D11F9A4F@mindspring.com>

Mike West wrote:
<snip>

> Aside from that, assuming reasonable planning, it should be quite possible
> for someone to commit a murder (or even a group murder) and flee to another
> planet.  It is much, much more difficult to have a pattern of murder and
> freely move between planets.  Unless you have a ship.  And the only people
> I can think of that would have a ship and do something as unprofitable as
> serial killing are PCs and nobles.

Its not a job, its a hobby. An NPC on the party's ship has been killing on
every planet he's visited for over 2 years. The cops were beginning to catch on
when they were on a 3 leg route, but were focusing on a PC (Wonder why?). Then
they got a long term charter and to the cops on those worlds the serial killing
stopped. He averages only one killing per month now  because of some lengthy
stays on a few worlds.  He waits till the night before lift off, picks up a
girl in a bar or on the street. Hopefully goes to her place, if not cash for a
moderate quality hotel and a fake ID. By the time the body is found he's in
jump space.  Eventually I expect he'll be caught in the act, but if he
separates the murders in space and time (through planning or luck), there's no
reason he can't go on killing for years. (Well that nasty disease that caused
him to go insane. But that's beside the point)





--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
History repeats itself; that's one of the things that's wrong with
history.
                               -Clarence Darrow





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 14:18:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri May 10 13:18:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Serial Killers (was: Hasty words)
References: <B90047A7.5A94F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CDC2497.EF85D68C@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> Again, you assume the killer acts by 'choice', with a notion of 'profit'.  I
> don't think that fits the patter of the true serial killer.  I don't think
> John Wayne Gacy or Jeffery Daumer or others like them did it because they
> had nothing better to do.
>
> How is something like this dealt with in the Imperium?  Do the planets just
> have to sort it out for themselves.  Does the criminal get away with it
> forever.
>
> Another class of criminal that comes to mind is large scale organized crime.
> With resources and cash, they can commit mayhem and then move on to the next
> world.
>
> In both of these cases, it seems to me that there is some Imperial interest
> in dealing with these crimes.  Perhaps not.  I'd be curious to hear people
> opinions.

IMTU there is an INTERPOL of sorts. Fortunately for criminals it is slow and
clunky in its day to day operations. If they only stay in the business for a few
years there's a chance they can make their money and get out. Interstellar serial
killers would be slow to be identified. Large organizations are targeted but can
be hard to root out depending on the local power structure.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
History repeats itself; that's one of the things that's wrong with
history.
                               -Clarence Darrow




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 14:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May 10 13:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <20020510195039.81193.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020510195039.81193.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3d6w3kawp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> I think this, played solo, could allow a GM to detail a subsector
> sized gaming environment fairly easily.

What would be particularly nice would be if such a game were very
rules-based.  That is, that it not call for GM fiat very often (if at
all).  This means that it would be automatable, which means that
(drumroll please) given a starting galaxy and a number of inhabited
planets, one could create the entire future history of that galaxy.

Which would be really cool:-)

Dunno how doable it is.  One would need rules for when space tech is
available, rules for when jump tech is available, rules to model
warlike character, rules to model war itself.  It'd sure be fun to
play with.

Someday, when travtrack is done...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Voskrese iz mertvych
Smertiju smert' poprav
I suscim vo hrobich zi
Vot darovav!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri May 10 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <74.1c9724ff.2a0c033a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020510153418.01fda840@mail.qrc.com>

At 12:52 PM 5/9/2002, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
>A minimum standard requires a definition, the Imperium must stand up and 
>say what that minimum standard is and worlds must know how it is applied.

As has oft been stated, the Imperium is a government of men, and not 
laws.  Rather than make a complex and definite rule that covers all cases 
that have (or will) occur in a millennia over 11,000 worlds, the Imperium 
has a general laws on the Emperor's authority.  These are defined and 
applied to the local situation by the Subsector, Sector, and Domain 
nobility (ultimately with the authority and support of the Emperor).

>My argument is that the Imperium cannot even take the first step toward a
>workable law of contract because it will be unable to define who or what may
>engage in contract making.

It seems to me that the Imperium must have solved this problem in order to 
exist.  If we both are agreed that the Imperium does exist in the Traveller 
universe, there most be a "good enough" workable solution to this 
problem.  I'd suggest that this is based on some definition of sapient 
individuals as eligible to enter into a contract, and further laws defining 
the creation and management of corporate entities.

>Yes but how does the Imperium set the standard? This is my whole point: it
>can't use the word sapient because it can't meaningful define it.

The Imperium can and does define it, using the same basis as almost 
everything else in the Imperium: by proclamation of the Emperor.  In most 
cases, this is straightforward: "We have determined the inhabitants of the 
world Xplotz who call themselves Glarbach to be sapient.  All members of 
that species who reside in the Imperium are sapient Citizens of the 
Imperium, and are accorded all of the attendant rights and responsibilities 
under our Law.  (signed, Strepon, 1101)"

The Emperor, of course, is not an xenologist - he or she is advised by the 
IISS, which may have spent years or decades researching the situation, 
examining the situation from various angles.  Yes, this is essentially an 
arbitrary process - but one of the advantages of a feudal system like the 
Imperium is that this can be made to work, so long as the results are 
reasonable for most people most of the time.  While some findings will be 
politically motivated (for example, a marginal species might be proclaimed 
to be sentient to stymie a rival's ambitions on a planet), the overall 
result will be workable for the Imperium as a whole.  The boundary cases 
are good adventure fodder.

In cases involving previously unknown species, there will likely be a delay 
as a preliminary determination is made by the appropriate Nobility and IISS 
officials make a preliminary determination.  Given the communication time 
between the frontier and Capitol, this preliminary determination is likely 
to stand for several years, until the formal proclamation is made.

>What if the  traditions of the World A hold that only True Believers are 
>sapient and all others are mere fleshy automata

The Emperor's proclamation clearly trumps that; World A will have to go 
along at least at a gross level when offworlders are around (the de-facto 
reality - particularly in areas far from the starport - may be 
different).  If World A persists in killing every non-believer that steps 
on planet, will soon find themselves literally in a world of trouble with 
the Imperium.

>And what criteria does the IISS use to determine sapience? How does it decide
>a species is worthy of the tag "probably sapient?"

On a case-by-case basis, preferably with decades of observation and 
research in the field (this is the stuff of which adventures can be made), 
and comparison to other cases and available scientific literature.  Take a 
look in the various books that deal with the IISS - surveying worlds, 
determining if the inhabitants are sapient, etc. are part of the IISS mission.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 14:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Fri May 10 13:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.44L0.0205101619140.28830-100000@shell.core.com>

On 9 May 2002 at 9:49, Tod Glenn wrote:
> > My group typically hates to lose a character and goes to great
> > lengths to plan, plot, equip, etc. for a mission, going in looking
> > like a ragtag bunch of tanks (OK, not that bad) when violence is
> > likely and suspiciously paranoid when it's not.  I.e., their
> > characters do things that might be considered odd by the 'real
> > people' of that milieu. When playing Top Secret years ago, it wasn't
> > that unusual for to walk around wearing kevlar just investigating
> > things, before any guns were drawn. Does that make them (and yes,
> > us) munchkins?  Or as I hope, just typical if a bit paranoid
> > adventurers?
>
> I think that really it comes down to attitude.  A serious role player
> will eventually tire of the super-being.  Sure, it's fun to run the
> hyper-competant, well equipped character a time or two.  But for the
> Munchkin, the whole reason d'etre is to become powerful and acquire
> super gear.

I guess that answers my question.  We don't want to play supermen, but do
enjoy "cool stuff" and would rather have a character with a few above
average stats to help survival chances.  Somewhat more "heroic" than
Everyman, but not a Diehard/Schwarzenegger type either.

We've talked about doing the equivalent of an Everyman type campaign, but
given a couple of the group have serious medical conditions, it's more fun
for them to play slightly-more-than-real-life games and the
idea never got off the ground.  Same with my attempt at running an
Aftermath game using PCs of ourselves.

> A smart player or character does take precautions.  That's perfectly
> normal. Characters with experience should try to stack the odds in
> their favor.  But the players sometimes have to go forward knowing
> that there is great risk, and that one or more of them may not come
> back.

Well, on this count we are more "reluctant heroes" and aren't the best
"roleplayers".

> One of the telling signs to me is whether the character ever does
> anything that may not be in his own best interest, but is 'in
> character'.  A Munchkin will rarely want to proceed unless he is
> absolutely certain he will prevail, and will get some big reward or
> other goodie.  Or just be able to slaughter lots of the enemy.

But on this count, I think we are roleplayers - we often have PCs do
things that are "what the character would do" even to the detriment
of the party.  A fair number of PCs have died or given their lives for
the party.  Those stories are the ones that stick around and get
retold too.  A couple of ballad/stories written from them too. (Not
good ones, mind you, but we enjoyed them.)

> Just my take.  I don't have a problem with players who game like this.
>  It's just not what I'm interested in.

Having not gamed with a lot of other people (especially since high
school/college), conversations about munchkins/ powergamers/ roleplayers/
storytellers alway have me wondering where my group fits in.  We're
definitely not White Wolf or LARP types (i.e. storytellers, with no rules,
etc.), but I don't think we're munchkins.  "Powergamers" maybe as someone
else said, but that could be our wargaming background too.

Just something I've wondered about for years.  (And seeing the various
messages about S:N ratios, I'll shut up about this now.)

-- 
Rob

More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
 Ventis secundis, tene cursum.  --  Go with the flow.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 14:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 10 13:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meat
Message-ID: <20020510.134259.-6343.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Doug

On Fri, 10 May 2002 08:30:49 -0700 Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> At 11:05 PM 5/10/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > > > It's like my friend Ed says "I God had not wanted us to eat 
> animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat."
> > >
> > > No, no, no.
> > >
> > > If animals are not to be eaten, why are the made of food?
> >
> >I always remember it as "If God hadn't wanted us to eat people, he
> >wouldn't have made us of meat."
> 
> "Plants aren't food.. plants are what food eats."  I used this one 
> while  dealing with a strict vegan PeTA true believer at BayCon last
year.

Sorry Doug, I couldn't resist...

Gen 1:29  And God said, See, I have given you every plant producing
seed, on the face of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit
producing seed: they will be for your food:

ObTrav:
You've landed on a quiet, peaceful, lush tropical world filled with
plants and animals. You and your crew decide to hunt a creature which
looks similar to a wild pig. You kill it, cook it, and are now eating the
delicious meat.

Suddenly you hear the racking of metal slides. You look up only to see
50+ soldiers aiming weapons at you. You're all taken prisoner. Why?

You've violated their sacred law, and have eaten meat.

Chaplain Bari



________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 14:44:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 10 13:44:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Droyne
Message-ID: <20020510.134259.-6343.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Glenn

On Fri, 10 May 2002 10:23:14 -0700 "Glenn M. Goffin"
<gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
> >From: generalturokan@juno.com
> >
> >Or is it - nobody knows, cares, and any world will do???
> 
> You may not be cleared for that information, Citizen.

<suddenly a Colonial 60k dton battle cruiser exits jump space over
Glenn's planet, soon followed by 48 smaller vessels in a fleet>

General: Helm, lay in an orbital approach.
Helm: Aye-Sir.

General: Comm open a channel to the fleet.
Comm: Aye-Sir, channel open.

General: All ships assume a containment grid, arm all weapons, standby
for assault.
Comm: Sir, the fleets responding, all ships acknowledge.

General: Weapons, I want a bombardment lock on every major city, every
spaceport, every military installation, and standby to fire at my
command.
Weapons: Aye-Sir, weapons are ready at your command.

General: Comm, patch me through to Glenn M. Goffin.
Comm: Aye-Sir, channel open, audio only.
General: Very well.

General: Glenn I know you can hear me.
                 My demands are simple.
                 Release the data on the Drone, or in 2 hours there will
be nothing left of your planet.
                 Please respond . . .


General Turokan
..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 14:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri May 10 13:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <m3it5wro7n.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <f3qmdu4uevu2v8grn8jv2tlsvek1agd92q@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3CDCDA95.17013.4614FD@localhost>

On 10 May 2002 at 9:56, Robert Uhl wrote:

> Again, that's the nature of things.  A good contribution doesn't need
> comment, and a poor one doesn't merit it.  Hence the TML Black Hole of
> Quality.

The problem is, of course, that while the good one doesn't get comment, 
the poor one probably will, in the form of a torrent of criticism. As 
this can look like abuse to many (and some may be abuse) the net effect 
is to scare some people into not posting material.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 15:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 10 14:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
Message-ID: <20020510.140749.-6343.2.generalturokan@juno.com>

Paul

On Fri, 10 May 2002 12:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> Along these same lines, I would like to see a "High
> Level Game" that allows for the development of a
> planet.
> 
> Actually, this goes really well with several of the
> posted requests.  I mean, people were asking for an
> extended history of a subsector.  That would involve
> the extended history of the planets.  For example, how
> did that planet go from C766687-9 to A7679AA-D?  When
> and how did the settlement of the GG moons take place?
>  
> While I'm not stepping up to write such a book, I
> would gladly work with others interested in hashing
> out the rules for such a game.

The creation of history like you suggest is great. I started doing that
very thing IMTU. With homemade ideas and planning my sector has grown a
lot (though I haven't worked in it for over a year). With my Freedom
sector it's become a monster in size, and I still have 3,000+ years of
catching up to do. Jim Vassilakos said I was playing similarly to the
game "Civilization," I wouldn't know, but that game might give you some
pointers on how to do it for Traveller

BTW -My sector in Gal24 when dumped to a .sar file is currently 1.7MB in
size. Consider that in your planning.

Turokan

..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 15:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (allensh)
Date: Fri May 10 14:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Free Gaming Supplements
In-Reply-To: <3CDCDA95.17013.4614FD@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020510212107.51939.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com>

Yeah, I want free gaming supplements...for all of us,
not just for me. I want to support the excellent
materials put out by the Traveller authors with
additional fan-produced stuff..Like, oh, say, the
Role-Playing Ship Combat System, which I had a small
part in creating (I suggested the rough form of the
missle rules which the others tweaked a bit). Or
various ships which my friend Dave Nelson designed
back in the TNE days which still are on some of the
websites. Or the adventures I've had "published" on
Freelance Traveller and elsewhere. Things that help
make the game more fun for everyone.

I have spent a considerable amount of money on
Traveller over the years and while I don't have all of
the new products, I have quite a bit and when T20
comes out I'll be spending more. I think all told that
I have contributed both financially and content-wise
to Traveller in the past. I would probably continue to
do so except that I haven't been playing Traveller
much lately; my current gaming group is not interested
in it. (A fact which vexes me but which, right now, I
can't do much about).

I have to confess that the extremely condescending
tone of the reply to my list of things I'd like to see
on this list really bothered me, but I refuse to sink
to name calling and snottiness. I also am not opposed
to some off-topic posting; it can't always be helped,
and sometimes it's even interesting. But sometimes
it's frightfully dull, and I do think it has grown to
the point where it has had a negative impact on the
list.

I have no more to say on this topic; instead I'm going
to polish up some stuff I do have and post it to the
list in the next few days, just so there will be some
of the kind of thing that I'd like to see here, and
hopefully someone will enjoy and get some use out of
some free gaming stuff.

Allen


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 15:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Fri May 10 14:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <f3qmdu4uevu2v8grn8jv2tlsvek1agd92q@4ax.com> from "Jeff Zeitlin" at May 10, 2002 04:07:36 AM
Message-ID: <200205102017.g4AKHv402003@localhost.uia.net>

> I also know that occasionally I
> encounter former members of the TML in other forums (IRC, newsgroups, et
> cetera), and when I informally invite them back, they often say that
> they're off the list _because_ of the low S/N ratio, and because we can
> flame each other endlessly about OT stuff - but can't seem to keep a real
> thread on Traveller going.

Funny you should mention this, as I've been thinking of signing off
for some time now. "Unsub from TML" is on that mental to-do list I
keep in the back of my head. No offense to the folks here, but this
list is a bit of a black hole in terms of what free time I have to
enjoy the hobby. I'd be better off producing something than reading
everyone's opinions, although I have to admit, some of those opinions
are very worthwhile, and I do enjoy many of the discussions (so long
as they're reasonably on-topic).

Just as an example, I'm really enjoying the various threads on
Imperial Law. For some reason, the more I read of various IMTU-
opinions, the more I feel myself inclined to produce an article
on the topic. In fact, it probably deserves an entire book.
However, as on-topic as most of these posts are, I can imagine
that there are probably many TML readers who have no interest
in this topic whatsoever. Hence, I've come to realize that one
man's junk is another man's treasure.

Still, there is a tendancy for the list to stray from Traveller-
related topics, and this is true of any forum. I'm reminded of a
famous blurb I used to see every time I would try to post an
article to usenet. Back in college, I was using rn/Pnews from a
unix system, and the immortal words of Larry Wall would scroll
down the screen just before I'd have to hit the send button:

   This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout
   the entire civilized world. Your message will cost the net
   hundreds if not thousands of dollars to send everywhere.
   Please be sure you know what you are doing.

I think just about everyone was using rn/Pnews back then (this
was back when 99% of traffic was from .edu sites). Well, that
means that everyone else was seeing this message as well, and
yet it still didn't keep people from posting garbage. Granted,
nobody really believed Larry about the costs involved. We
figured that he's just trying to shock us into being careful
about what we post. Also, it didn't take a genius to figure
out that most of the costs involved with internet traffic are
sunk costs... the money has already been spent on the lines
and equipment and sysadmin salaries. Hence, posting to usenet
was just a matter of pushing electrons around, and everyone
knew it. But what most folks don't think about is the overall
cost in man-hours, all those eyeballs scanning what you've
written... all those people who really have something better
they could be doing.

"Well, that's their own stupid choice," one might counter.

Very true. However, if you're posting off-topic, then you've
effectively lured them into wasting their time reading your
garbage under false pretenses. That's not a big deal if you're
wasting the time or a handful of people, but if it's several
dozen people, or say a few hundred, then you're wasting a
lot of people's time, and that's not cool.

Back on Usenet, people have struggled with this problem for
some time. While various solutions have been proposed, most
folks have thrown up their hands and tried to see the humor in
the situation. Here's a cute bit of advice from Emily Postnews:

Dear Ms. Postnews:
	I couldn't get mail through to somebody on another site.  What
	should I do?
		-- Eager Beaver

Dear Eager:
	No problem, just post your message to a group that a lot of people
read.  Say, "This is for John Smith.  I couldn't get mail through so I'm
posting it.  All others please ignore."
	This way tens of thousands of people will spend a few seconds scanning
over and ignoring your article, using up over 16 man-hours their collective
time, but you will be saved the terrible trouble of checking through usenet
maps or looking for alternate routes.  Just think, if you couldn't distribute
your message to 9000 other computers, you might actually have to (gasp) call
directory assistance for 60 cents, or even phone the person.  This can cost
as much as a few DOLLARS (!) for a 5 minute call!
	And certainly it's better to spend 10 to 20 dollars of other people's
money distributing the message than for you to have to waste $9 on an overnight
letter, or even 25 cents on a stamp!
	Don't forget.  The world will end if your message doesn't get through,
so post it as many places as you can.
		-- Emily Postnews Answers Your Questions on Netiquette

And here's another one:

Dear Emily:
	I'm still confused as to what groups articles should be posted
to.  How about an example?
		-- Still Confused

Dear Still:
	Ok.  Let's say you want to report that Gretzky has been traded from
the Oilers to the Kings.  Now right away you might think rec.sport.hockey
would be enough.  WRONG.  Many more people might be interested.  This is a
big trade!  Since it's a NEWS article, it belongs in the news.* hierarchy
as well.  If you are a news admin, or there is one on your machine, try
news.admin.  If not, use news.misc.
	The Oilers are probably interested in geology, so try sci.physics.
He is a big star, so post to sci.astro, and sci.space because they are also
interested in stars.  Next, his name is Polish sounding.  So post to
soc.culture.polish.  But that group doesn't exist, so cross-post to
news.groups suggesting it should be created.  With this many groups of
interest, your article will be quite bizarre, so post to talk.bizarre as
well.  (And post to comp.std.mumps, since they hardly get any articles
there, and a "comp" group will propagate your article further.)
	You may also find it is more fun to post the article once in each
group.  If you list all the newsgroups in the same article, some newsreaders
will only show the the article to the reader once!  Don't tolerate this.
		-- Emily Postnews Answers Your Questions on Netiquette

I guess my point with respect to including the above is just to show
that this problem of noise-to-signal has been evident in countless
other forums, and nobody has yet found a good solution except,
perhaps, to run moderated lists where an individual moderator has
to individually okay each and every post. Self-moderation on lists
above a certain size simply doesn't seem to work. There's always a
certain percentage of the population who will fail to exercize
restraint and who will cry foul when called to the carpet for
violations of being off-topic or simply posting garbage.

"So what you're saying, Jim, is that there's no solution?"

Yes and no.

As for my own personal standards, whenever I post something to more
than a handful of people, I still pretend to that the Larry Wall
blurb is flashing in front of my eyes before I hit that send button.
And whenever posting to this list, I ask myself two very simple
questions. #1: Is what I am posting intended to start or significantly
add to an on-topic discussion? #2: Is what I am posting likely to
find its way into at least one discriminating reader's save folder?
If the answer to both of these questions is "no", then I don't post.
Personally, I'd prefer that everyone adhere to these standards, but
given the nature of such things, I'm hardly in a position to
expect this to ever happen. Hence, I'll probably be voting with
my feet at some point in the not-to-distant future. But that's the
nature of the TML and all other mailing lists. You either accept
the signal/noise ratio, or you don't.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 15:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Fri May 10 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] FFE6 has done landed!
In-Reply-To: <3CDC05C5.C920AEB@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0205101622080.13694-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

FFE6 just arrived here, too... sharing a box with FFE7!  These look
great: they have color reproductions of all the covers and a complete
index (by author and title) in the back of each volume.
I've been buying all the reprints, but I've long suspected these were the
volumes I really wanted to own.  I think I was right:  now I have
more articles than I can read this weekend, going into detail about things
that only got a few paragraphs, if that, in any of the sourcebooks I 
own.  And they're big, of course.  It's good when my stack of
Traveller material grows over an inch in the time it takes for me to get
the mail.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 15:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri May 10 14:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program (was mis-jump question)
In-Reply-To: <20020506023933.23786279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20510.145009.9u2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> BTW, I was using "Dice Bag II", but got suspicious of it's
> distribution of rolls and after checking a few hundred rolls came to
> the conclusion that it was doing uniform distributions on what should
> have been normal distribution rolls..ie. on 3d6 the 3 was a likely to
> come up as a 10 or 11. I've been meaning to write my own die-roller
> for a while now, now might be a good time to do it. Maybe something
> like...
>
>   ____________________
>  |-  Die Roller      X|
>  |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
>  |File Help           |
>  |____________________|
>  |  Number  Type      |
>  |  O  1    O  d3     |
>  |  O  2    O  d4     |
>  |  O  3    O  d6     |
>  |  O  4    O  d8     |
>  |  O  5    O  d10    |
>  |  O  6    O  d12    |
>  |  O  7    O  d20    |
>  |  O  8    O  d30    |
>  |  O  9    O  d100   |
>  |             __     |
>  |  Modifier -|__|+   |
>  |                    |
>  |  |~~~~~~| Result   |
>  |  | Roll | |~~~~~|  |
>  |  |______| |_____|  |
>  |____________________|

Nah. I'd says the best is a slightly "smarter" program with a simpler
interface. Just a prompt that says "Roll: "

You type in something like 6d8-5 and it does the roll. 

For extra points, add the ability to have multipliers as well as +/-. 

After all you will get *very* different results from 10d6 and 1d6*10!

Anybody think divisors are needed? And if so, should the results be
integers or reals?

And yes, I'd have the order of ops be the order the arguments are given:

Thus, 6d6*10-8 would be ((6d6)*10)-8 while 6d6-8*10 would be ((6d6)-8)*10

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 16:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri May 10 15:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval Command Question
References: <20020510190202.77DB227A0A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CDC4408.DD810BD9@ameritech.net>








> From: "Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu>
> Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 14:07:31 -0400

<snip>

> How long does a ship's captain remain aboard as her CO?  In other
> words what is a captain's typical tour of duty aboard a vessel?  
> One year?  Two years? Five years?  The reason I ask is I'm working 
> on a character with previous Naval background and want to have a 
> good idea of how long they served aboard the ship as Captain before
> retiring.

Judging from High Guard (page 5 Retention In Assignment) 1 or in
exceptional cases 2 years. Why the Imperial Navy feels the need to 
churn personel assignments so ruthlessly is open to speculation. My
theory is that the Admiralty feels that experience handling as many
vessels as possible is necesary for efficient fleet command.

YMMV

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 16:34:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri May 10 15:34:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Avenging Aphid
Message-ID: <3CDC4A1C.EEA753A6@ameritech.net>

The Spinward Marches Entertainment Group/Heavy Equipment 
Architects Group (SMEG/HEAD) is pleased to announce the 
launching of a new class of ship.

The Avenging Aphid class of Adventurer's Yachts. The AA 
class is a radical departure from the design norm for 
dilletante nobles. Instead of sleek lines, lush interiors, 
and state of the art technology this vessel is constructed
of tried and true technology in order to be maintained
and repaired by the most possible starports.

Sacrificing creature comforts the yacht is designed to be 
crewed by a single individual if needed making this ship 
the perfect choice for a young noble with a mature wander 
lust. Low berths are provided in the event of medical 
emergency and the craft comes equipped with an ATV as well 
as an Air/raft for maximum flexibility in planetside travel.

Don't be the last in your subsector to own one.



Ship: Avenging Aphid
Class: Avenging Aphid
Type: Adventurers Yacht
Architect: David Shayne
Tech Level: 9

USP
         YA-1612211-020000-10001-0 MCr 46.518 100 Tons
Bat Bear             1     1   1   Crew: 6
Bat                  1     1   1   TL: 9

Cargo: 3.500 Fuel: 12.000 EP: 2.000 Agility: 1 Pulse Lasers
Craft: 1 x 4T Air/Raft, 1 x 10T ATV, Tracked
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 0.459   Cost in Quantity: MCr 37.340


Detailed Description

HULL
100.000 tons standard, 1,400.000 cubic meters,
  Flattened Sphere Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner, 4 Other Crew (minimum required 1)

ENGINEERING
Jump-1, 2G Manuever, Power plant-2, 2.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/1 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Mixed Turret with: 
  1 Pulse Laser (Factor-1), 
  1 Missile Rack (Factor-1).

DEFENCES
1 Single Sandcaster Turret organised into 
  1 Battery (Factor-2)

CRAFT
1 4.000 ton Air/Raft (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 0.600), 
1 10.000 ton ATV, Tracked (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 0.030)

FUEL
12.000 Tons Fuel (1 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
6.0 Staterooms, 5 Low Berths, 3.500 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 46.347 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.459), 
MCr 36.710 in Quantity, plus MCr 0.630 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
38 Weeks Singly, 30 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS

This ship was designed using AMV's High Guard Shipyard.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri May 10 15:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Munchkins, et al
Message-ID: <memo.301004@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020510144340.74678.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

As a GM, I enjoy it when my players have a good planning session - I can 
just sit back and cackle evilly :-)

As a player, I'd rather plan than fight any day. But then I don't 
particularly enjoy long combat sessions. I prefer interaction 
role-playing, talking to the people/monsters/aliens that we encounter 
rather than thumping them.

As a scenario author, I like to create plots which have multiple routes 
through them... and which require the players to use their wits as well as 
their swords/blasters/whatever offensive weapons they have to succeed.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 16:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May 10 15:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #510 - 24 msgs
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA227B2@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <008701c1f875$2fa30740$8c9193c3@youra7emtd0v3k>


> >"MJ Dougherty" wrote:
> >What period/setting would folks most like to see a sourcebook on?
>
> The Interstellar Wars.
>

Well now, I'm exploring this period for the novel - The Last Hurrah - which
we're serializing in the TA series, starting with #2.

Enough might get written for a sourcebook.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 16:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri May 10 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <B8FD33BC.59FAD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20510.155523.9O5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 5/7/02 6:50 AM, Derek Wildstar at wildstar@qrc.com wrote:
>
>> At 05:32 PM 5/6/2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>>> Committing an act that is legal in the place where committed normally will
>>> not constitute any sort of crime in another place, even if the actor goes
>>> from that other place to the place where she will commit the act
>> 
>> I'd say that this is a key tenet of Imperial law: while worlds may make
>> (nearly) whatever laws they wish, they cannot extend the reach of their law
>> across interstellar space.  Thus you cannot be convicted on Regina for an
>> activity that took place on Efate.
>
> Think about the impact this would have.  It would be like eliminating all
> extradition laws on earth. Anyone could commit any crime, and so long as
> they got to a ship, and left system, they would be safe.

There *are* not extradition *laws* on earth. There are extradition
*treaties.

That's an important distinction.

Countries ignore the treaties regularly. 

Basicly, all the trw\eaties do is say "We'll return the criminal to you
if you can convince us that he *deserves* to be turned over to your
justice. If we don't like the penalty you might impose, we won't do it,
even if there's no doubt about him having committed the crime.

Inside someplace like the US, things are a bit different. But even then
a state doesn't have to extradite someone. It's just that they
*usually* do.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 17:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May 10 16:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <20510.155523.9O5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1021071733.1653.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Inside someplace like the US, things are a bit different. But even then
> a state doesn't have to extradite someone. It's just that they
> *usually* do.

Except for taxes ;).  The reason for lack of sales tax on interstate sales is
lack of enforcement ability on the part of the states levying the tax, not lack
of desire on the part of the states to charge taxes.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 17:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May 10 16:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] All Psi party
In-Reply-To: <20020510113548.22585.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020510082332.A12385@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020510113548.22585.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020511090954.A17124@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Tackett wrote:
> Two of these These guys are Zhodani in disguise making a hasty trip
> through the Imperium down to an obscure place in the Reavers Deep
[...]
> THis campaign occurs about year 100.

OK, so this is way before the Psionic Suppressions, and set during the
Pacification Campaigns.  So I guess the Imperium isn't as rabidly
anti-psionic in your game as it becomes seven hundred years later.

I would guess that the Zhodani are not nearly as well known as they
become later, too.  The Spinward Marches are only just starting to be
colonised, and this is hundreds of years before the First Frontier
War.


> I'm just wondering if anyone has ever had experience with a party
> that had several psi's in it.

In Traveller, no.  In my own home-brew GURPS game, yes.  In that game
it was also not especially focal, since most of its effects could be
duplicated by other means.

This holds true in My Traveller Universe too!  Advanced technology,
particularly a vastly improved science of neurology and psychology,
makes reading (and writing) people's minds possible even from a
distance.  Most of the other effects can also be duplicated (though
not all).  The biggest difference is that psi is intrinsic and the
ability is rare.  I don't know how many of the effects could be
duplicated in the OTU.


> Psionics is not very focal it's just a tool for the pc's.

I don't really foresee much in the way of severe social problems in
that early era.  Most citizens won't have heard of the Zhodani, I
suspect.  I also gather that curiosity about psionics was more the
reaction prior to about 650, with some minor scientific investigation
going on in the Imperium.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 17:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May 10 16:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Player/Character knowledge (Was: Munchkins, et al)
In-Reply-To: <006a01c1f854$a4ac9680$662cf7a5@pctframen>
References: <006a01c1f854$a4ac9680$662cf7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <20020511093302.B17124@freeman.little-possums.net>

Fred Ramen wrote:
> Another problem when dealing with what a PC knows as opposed to what his/her
> player knows is what is probably the most problematic of all the abilities:
> Intelligence. It is usually ignored during a game, except when a task calls
> for it.

This topic has caused many a lively discussion on the
rec.games.frp.advocacy newsgroup.  In particalar, the topic of how to
handle characters with much higher intelligence than the player was
never satisfactorily resolved.  Likewise with social skills, since
these in-game abilities are often required to be detailed by the
player.


> The idea would be that you could draw points out of your
> Intelligence pool to act as a DM to a task after you rolled for
> success.  Once drawn in such a fashion, those points would be
> unavailable for the rest of the session.

My first thought is that it might turn out like the Karma Pool in
Shadowrun: never used except in one huge hit on a critical task.  My
more general thoughts on such session-oriented systems are that they
often lead to "mini-games", in which the players tactically manage the
limited resources the system provides.  (The same thing happens with
"Luck" in GURPS)

For some players, this is great -- tactical resource management is fun
and adds to the challenge of the game.  Having the de-coupling between
player and character intelligence is also useful if you want to play a
character of quite different ability.

For some others, it's not good -- it's not something that they can
relate to in-character, and they might even get annoyed with players
who use the out-of-character knowledge "how many pool points do I have
left" to make in-game decisions.  There is also the question of
whether such a system just replaces an OOC intelligence requirement
with an OOC skill in resource management :)


> My initial feeling is that even combat tasks shouldn't be exempted,
> but I'm willing to be dissuaded.

Oh, I'd agree that Intelligence would apply to almost any skill.  Some
less so than others in real life, but for purposes of simplicity in a
game they could easily be treated equally.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 17:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 10 16:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: my milieu wishlist
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1021073779.0.89996100@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

"Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
>>"MJ Dougherty" wrote:
>>What period/setting would folks most like to see a sourcebook on?
>
>The Interstellar Wars.

I agree wholeheartedly with this one.  It really seems a natural area to explore, considering that the history (through 'Imperium') and setting (through S10 and GT:RoF) are both familiar, and now we're even going to be getting IW Era fiction (from MJD, starting in TA#2).  All that's needed is for someone (Andrew Moffatt-Valance?) to stitch everything together into a cohesive RPG-able package.  The thematic elements (Terrans (as good guys for once!) first stepping out into the Universe, upstart rebels fighting corrupt (evil?) Empire at incredibly long odds) are appealing, and significantly different from what we've had in Traveller to date, and the low-TL baseline might encourage a grittier 'hard sf' feel (a la T:2300) that's usually absent at higher (;space-opera') TLs. 

The other milieu sourcebook I'd like to see is the Psionic Supressions.  While the focus/appeal of this would obviously be narrower than most other propsed milieux, IMO there's enough game-able potential to make it worthwhile, at least as a single sourcebook (while I think the IW Era is ripe for an entire product line).  And besides, it would finally give a leitimate OTU pretext to run one of those Psi-oriented X-Men style cabal-of-misunderstood-dogooders campaigns that's tempted all of us at least once or twice.  

In general, I think diversity of feel/style between milieux is good and desirable -- if the only differences from one milieu to the next are going to be the max. allowed TL and bad-guy alien species du jour, then why bother leaving the vanilla old CT/GT setting in the first place? 

Trent
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 17:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May 10 16:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020510114642.00a78ec0@mail.earthlink.net>
References: <008501c1f849$368bd7c0$279793c3@youra7emtd0v3k> <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMOEKKDNAA.tml@downport.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20020510114642.00a78ec0@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020511093954.C17124@freeman.little-possums.net>

J. Paul Sanders wrote:
> How about a sourcebook detailing the STEPS needed for the exploration, 
> colonization, administration, and defense of previously 'uninhabited' 
> sectors

I'd buy it!  If I had some available time, I'd even try to *write* it.
In a previous fantasy game, I generated quite a lot of notes on how
the dominant Elves were going about expanding into new territory, and
the factors that went in to how and they went about it and why.  Some
of them were completely inapplicable to Traveller of course.  Sadly,
the campaign only went for a couple of sessions before I got a
full-time job and one of the players moved interstate and it fizzled.


> Such a sourcebook that would allow my PCs to set out for parts
> unknown and run a complete campaign in a new semi-blank sector that
> would allow me, the ref., having to generate absolutely everything
> from scratch - this is what I am talking about.

With the side-effect that you might get good interplay between
economic, political and social factors from the ground up, rather than
having to try to reverse-engineer them from UWPs :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 17:41:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May 10 16:41:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program (was mis-jump question)
In-Reply-To: <20510.145009.9u2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20510.145009.9u2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <m34rhfmv1l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> 
> You type in something like 6d8-5 and it does the roll. 
> 
> For extra points, add the ability to have multipliers as well as +/-. 

On Unix (e.g. AIX, Solaris, HP-UX, Linux, NetBSD, FreeBSD, OpenBSD and
Mac OS X) I'd modify bc or dc to have similar functionality.  This
would a) be easy to do, given the free nature of the source and b)
reach the largest number of operating systems.

> Thus, 6d6*10-8 would be ((6d6)*10)-8 while 6d6-8*10 would be ((6d6)-8)*10

I'd use a calculator base, and let the user use the term he's familiar
with.  Essentially, xdy is simply another method of specifying a
numeric constant--only it's a constant which varies from invocation to
invocation.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Krishhti Unjall!  Vertet Unjall!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 17:45:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Fri May 10 16:45:07 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <20020510190202.77DB227A0A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020510163855.00a4c0c0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Fri, 10 May 2002 14:39:26 -0400, "Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu> 
wrote:

>To me Traveller is both a setting and a system.  Not mechanics ( I use a
>homebrew system with it's roots in D6 for my mechanics) but it is things
>like Vacc Suit, Air/Raft, four year terms, 100dton Scout ships...that's what
>defines Traveller for me.

Sounds rather like the FINAL FANTASY series of console games, of which I'm 
a fan.  In each installment, the world and characters and villain are 
different, and the rules (battle system, skill system, etc) may change ... 
but there's always an airship, and chocobos and moogles, and certain spells 
and summoned monsters, and some guy named Cid, and...

Whatever works for you, I guess.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 17:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri May 10 16:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEMECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020510164646.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>

At 10:23 AM 5/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> >
> >At 01:24 PM 5/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >>That said, the number of people officially banned from the TML over the
> >>years is quite small: three (iirc), and each was given multiple chances.
> >
> >Leroy, Clif, and who else?
>
>Didn't we give Doug Berry the boot?

And it is a very nice boot, although I prefer lower heels.  Can i have the 
mare soon?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 17:53:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri May 10 16:53:31 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
In-Reply-To: <006801c1f848$9a7e5970$279793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEMECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020510164739.009fe090@mindspring.com>

At 06:31 PM 5/10/02 +0100, you wrote:

> > >At 01:24 PM 5/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > >>That said, the number of people officially banned from the TML over the
> > >>years is quite small: three (iirc), and each was given multiple chances.
> > >
> > >Leroy, Clif, and who else?
> >
> > Didn't we give Doug Berry the boot?
>
>Presumably he gave it back at some point, then? Coz that's him there! There!
>Hiding behind his monitor with a false moustache!

The moustache is quite real.  It just has looked fake since my beard 
trimmer died.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 17:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri May 10 16:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020510164646.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205101654580.13751-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 10 May 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 10:23 AM 5/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> > >
> > >At 01:24 PM 5/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > >>That said, the number of people officially banned from the TML over the
> > >>years is quite small: three (iirc), and each was given multiple chances.
> > >
> > >Leroy, Clif, and who else?
> >
> >Didn't we give Doug Berry the boot?
> 
> And it is a very nice boot, although I prefer lower heels.  Can i have the 
> mare soon?
> 
Not till you give back the stallion.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 18:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri May 10 17:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Request
Message-ID: <3CDC5E71.1B38C92B@mail.cswnet.com>

>Might I request some discussion of the future of
>ISSDEC?  I am somewhat disturbed by the lack of
>response.  I won't post my complete feelings on the
>recent thread, but suffice it to say that I think MJ
>is right.  I am trying to keep Traveller topics alive
>here on the list.  One way is through ISSDEC.

Well, it wasn't for my lack of trying. I started off with 
my used HG2 spacecraft lot posts. I guess it just got lost
in the noise.

I have a ship for the current contest in the slip. I haven't 
come up with a good name for it, though. Also, I've tried my
best to get something going on the HG2 logistics front, but 
only had one person respond to that. [shrug]

>What would you like to see in the future for this
>project?  What ships would you like to cover, and how
>should it be done?

Well, how about these three?

1. Patrol Escort

	Size: 400dt -1000dt
	minimum maneuver:3G
	minimum jump:J2
	maximum TL: CT TL12 : GT TL10
	Gas giant fueling required
	Other requirments: should have at least one small craft.
	should have a security contingent aboard. At least 2/3rds
	of the turret space available should be directed energy
	weapons [lasers, plasma guns, etc.]

2. Maneuver capable Express Boat

	Size: 100dt +
	minimum maneuver:1G
	minimum jump:J3
	required TL: CT TL12 : GT TL10
	Gas giant fueling required
	Other requirments: none

3. Colonization ship

	Size: up to 10000dt
	minimum maneuver:2G
	minimum jump:J3
	required TL: CT TL12 : GT TL10
	Gas giant fueling required
	Other requirments: Must be able to put 100 colonists with
	equipment, vehicles and housing on ANY planet. Designer will
	have to take into account what will be required for exotic 
	atmospheres, climates, etc.

If anyone has extra requirments that would amplify the above design 
requests, speak now!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 18:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri May 10 17:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] #traveller topical talk #1: Aliens
Message-ID: <aemodus1774mg01ordhoah3f2g5krhkmbs@4ax.com>

OK, folks, I'm going to bite the bullet and make a command decision.  I
hope enough of you will find it a good enough decision to come and
participate; but I've got to try anyhow.  Feedback will be welcome.

#traveller topical talk #1 : Aliens

A discussion on near-human and non-human sophonts from non-Traveller game
supplements and non-gaming literature - which ones would you like to see in
Traveller, and why do you think they'd be a good fit for Traveller.

Date and time: Friday, May 17, 2002, 21:00 (9:00 PM) EDT.  That's 18:00
(6:00PM) for the US West Coast, 02:00 (2:00 AM) Saturday UCT, 10:00
Saturday in Perth, 12:00 Noon Saturday in Sydney, and 13:00 or 14:00 (1:00
PM or 2:00 PM) Saturday in New Zealand.  Subject to adjustment depending on
feedback.  These times assume no error due to Summer/Daylight Saving
adjustments.

Where:         Undernet IRC network, channel #traveller.  If you need help
               getting started, contact me.

What should you do beforehand?

Find a race that would interest you.  Read about it, with the topic in mind
- how and why you think it would fit into Traveller.  Be prepared to
discuss specific attributes, and to provide enough background on the race
so that others can comment.  Optionally, have a writeup prepared,
compatible with Traveller.

If the chat goes well, it is my intent to put it up on Freelance Traveller
- nicks only, no revelation of identity - along with any writeups that are
made available (those will be published under real names, as all Freelance
Traveller articles are).
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 18:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri May 10 17:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] #traveller topical talk #1 - an additional note
Message-ID: <cpoodus9r10ut9udmakrrdeunu9scne548@4ax.com>

Part of what you should be prepared to discuss is how to play the alien as
a PC, or why it needs to be limited to NPC status.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 18:33:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri May 10 17:33:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Avenging Aphid
Message-ID: <3CDC6604.22EB607E@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>

I think one of these ships just landed at the port.
Looks good!

>This ship was designed using AMV's High Guard Shipyard.

Where can I find this? Does it use excel?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
ps. Avenging Aphid? This wouldn't be ZORACK related, would it?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 18:33:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Fri May 10 17:33:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Request
Message-ID: <F151x6EfkU9X3melfSu000143d8@hotmail.com>

>Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
> >Might I request some discussion of the future of
> >ISSDEC?  I am somewhat disturbed by the lack of
> >response.  I won't post my complete feelings on the
> >recent thread, but suffice it to say that I think MJ
> >is right.  I am trying to keep Traveller topics alive
> >here on the list.  One way is through ISSDEC.
>
>Well, it wasn't for my lack of trying. I started off with
>my used HG2 spacecraft lot posts. I guess it just got lost
>in the noise.

I try to comment on all designs (provided I have the time) but I know almost 
nothing about CT, HG and MT designs. It doesn't help that most ship 
characteristics are encoded in a way that is almost impossible to decode 
without the rules. :)

> >What would you like to see in the future for this
> >project?  What ships would you like to cover, and how
> >should it be done?
>
>Well, how about these three?
>
>1. Patrol Escort

Sounds good to me.

>2. Maneuver capable Express Boat

Like a X-boat? If so most designs will probably be virtually identical.

>3. Colonization ship

Also fun.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 19:16:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Fri May 10 18:16:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <f3qmdu4uevu2v8grn8jv2tlsvek1agd92q@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEIKHMAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote :
> I think you miss the point.  Neither 'Crusty' nor
> 'Sunbeard' was objecting to the 'chaff'; the problem
> that they perceive - and  which, quite frankly,
> I agree with - is that we seem to _prefer_ the chaff
> to the actual 'signal'.

I definitely do.
If this list had just Traveller posts, it would be uninteresting
and boring, and I would probably unsubscribe.

> I've never actually said anything, but I do
> know that MJD, Loren, and others have all occasionally
> complained  that they drop what I would call 'good signal
> ideas' into the list ... only  to have them _appear_
> to sink without a trace.  No feedback whatsoever, and
> very little even when this lack is explicitly pointed
> out, and an explicit  request for feedback
> is made.

If it's good, there's no need to discuss it unless you disagree
with it.

Yes, this is not encouraging for the posters of useful materiel,
so perhaps we should try to be more encouraging.

But then do we really want hundreds of one line congratulatory
messages ?

That's even more more boring than repeated discussion, though
perhaps would take less bandwidth if people didn't  quote the
entire message in their one line response.

<snip>
> I've seen very few people come to the list and _not_
> make _some_ good contributions.  That's not the problem.
> The problem is that we apparently aren't able to _sustain_
> a thread _based_ on those  contributions.

I seriously doubt that any list could.

If it's considered a _good_ contributon then by definition most
people either agree with it or accept that it makes sense even if
they don't agree with it.

A good post should be _expected_ to result in no discussion.

What you seem to be after is _controversial_ on-topic posts,
because only those will generate debate.

> As a small example: This thread has already gone through
> more messages than my EXPLICIT REQUEST for people to
> comment on the ideas for Traveller-related topics to
> discuss on IRC, and to suggest times when they'd like
> to try to get together and _discuss_ those topics in
> real time (albeit not face-to-face).

To respond to your post, which as you will see, is unneccessary :

Many people, including me, are uninterested in IRC. Talking to
people in real time is what phones are for, and I can't be
bothered waiting for someone to type a response in real time.

> And worse, this _message_ has more text than the totality
> of responses to my initial post on that thread.
>
> Is this the image we want to leave people with?

Who cares ?

Lists are  not about image, they are about community.
That's what the internet portal companies took a long time to
realize.

The TML is a community of people who all have an interest in
Traveller.
As a community, we discuss what we feel like, not what one person
thinks
we should discuss.

Complaining about the lack of content is stupid.
If you want debate on a Traveller topic, post something that
people will debate.

Just be prepared to find out that something _you_ think is worth
debating may not interest the rest of the list.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 19:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May 10 18:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020510143015.55988.qmail@web13905.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <m33cx0o6o3.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020510214529.01bb4f68@192.168.0.1>

At 07:30 AM 5/10/2002 -0700, allensh wrote:
>--- "Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> > allensh <allensh@yahoo.com> writes:
> > > A thread can be on topic and still be pointless,
> > and the sword
> > > thread was WAY pointless.  Worse, I would say,
> > than the Great Near-C
> > > Rock Debate.
> > On what, exactly, do you base that statement?  It
> > was a) interesting
> > (else it would not have lasted so long) b) relevant
> > (it dealt with a
> > matter of terminology) and c) lead to useful
> > discussions on future
> > melee combat.
> > What, praytell, do you consider `pointful'?
>I consider the following things 'pointful':

Then start some threads on what you find "pointful" (and do something about 
that lack of a sense of humor) instead of just bitching about what's out there.



>1.) Adventure ideas for Traveller
>2.) Interesting ideas for worlds for Traveller
>3.) New technology for Traveller
>4.) Starships for Traveller
>5.) new alien races for Traveller.
>6.) tips on Gamemastering, specfically related to
>Traveller.
>
>In short, while you may find long dissertations on
>swords and such interesting, I find that they do
>absolutely nothing to enhance my enjoyment of the
>Traveller RPG and setting. There are, I'm quite sure,
>mailing lists for haggling over the miniutae of
>weapons from various stages of history. I don't feel
>that this list should be one of them.

------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about
architecture" -- Thelonius Monk
------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 19:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri May 10 18:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Request
In-Reply-To: <008501c1f849$368bd7c0$279793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <B901525D.5AB45%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020510215110.01bbc0e8@192.168.0.1>

At 06:35 PM 5/10/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > In an effort to encourage some more Traveller related discussion, would
> > anyone care to post same?  Perhaps we can get some of our lurkers to post
> > Comments or questions related to the Game and kick start some OT
>discussions
> > again.
>OKay.
>What period/setting would folks most like to see a sourcebook on?
>What Big Mystery/Unanswered Question would you like to see a huge adventure
>slowly unravelling?

Well, I posted data (and URLs) on Reavers' Deep.  A section rich in gaming 
potential.
Not one marfling word from the folks who want more signal.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 20:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri May 10 19:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Droyne
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEMMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: generalturokan@juno.com
>
><suddenly a Colonial 60k dton battle cruiser exits jump space over
>Glenn's planet, soon followed by 48 smaller vessels in a fleet>

What planet?  [Slight gravitational distortion as world disappears.  Maybe
it went into a pocket universe.]

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 20:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Fri May 10 19:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Droyne
References: <20020510.134259.-6343.1.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c1f88f$090ad080$d1317b83@housing.res.kent.edu>

<quote>

General: Glenn I know you can hear me.
                 My demands are simple.
                 Release the data on the Drone, or in 2 hours there will
be nothing left of your planet.
                 Please respond . . .


General Turokan

</quote>

Well I'm not Glen, but the threat of orbital bombardment over the Secrets of
the Ancients(tm) caused me to look through the thread and realized no one
had responded fully to your inquiry.  Allow me to assist...

Many of us I imagine had assumed that you couldn't possibly be serious when
you asked about the Droyne.  Just to drop the big bombshell on you the
Droyne are all that is left of the race referred to in Imperial history
books as the "Ancients".  As such their range of habitation can be pretty
much anywhere.  We know from Alien Module 5 that Droyne are found all
through known space, including Zhodani, Aslan and Vargr held areas.  This
does not include the hundreds of worlds where numerous colonies of Droyne
have been found to have gone extinct.

As for their preferred homeworld according to Alien Module 5 pg. 3 the
Droyne homeworld was approximately size 3 to 6, atmosphere 6 or 8 (probably
8), hydrosphere 3+ and probably orbited an F2 V to F7 V star.

Hope this helps...

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 20:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri May 10 19:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: my milieu wishlist
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEMMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: <trentfs@ix.netcom.com>
>
>The other milieu sourcebook I'd like to see is the Psionic Supressions.  

This could lead to some nasty, paranoid sessions.  I like it.

--Glenn



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri May 10 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Annual Maintenance
Message-ID: <F3AxCtuTRjtyntahJGy00011458@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     The current fleet logistics/exploration cruiser design thread got the 
weary Whipsnadian perking again.  And we all know just how dangerous THAT 
can be...
     This may seem like a silly question but; just what the heck is annual 
maintenance all about anyway?  What actually occurs at the yard?  What is 
done to the vessel in question?  Are there any ways to get around the 
requirement?  B2, HG2, and TCS flatly state the costs and time requirements 
involved but leave the "nuts and bolts" (pun intended) rather vague.
     From a RPG metagaming standpoint, annual maintenance provides GMs with 
a tool to control and/or motivate PCs.  PCs with a ship must put aside money 
for the fees involved and ensure they are at certain locations at certain 
times or risk their starship malfunctioning.
     In TCS, annual maintenance bolts a SINGLE logistics rule onto the 
rather simple "design 'em and fight 'em" strategic wargame presented.  TCS 
doesn't deal with fungibles, weapon reloads, or salaries.  All a player has 
to do is set aside a certain amount of cash per year per ship for annual 
maintenance and everything else is taken care of.
     It's when we try and fit annual maintenance into the consensual 
hallucination known as the OTU that things get squirrelly.  Take a map of 
the Spinward Marches, mark down all the Imperial class "A" and "B" ports at 
TL14/15, then try to imagine the Imperial Navy cycling EVERY warship in 
EVERY fleet through those locations EVERY year.  Add navy bases and depots 
to your map and the exercise still remains formidable.
     It was noted on the "CT-Sarships" list last year that the Julian 
Protectorate has quite a problem with annual maintenance.  The only TL15, 
class "A" port available to that polity is so far away from the Julian's 
borders with the Imperials and K'Kree that warships being maintained there 
would spend the majority of their operational time simply travelling back 
and forth between the port and the front(s).  Strange way to fight, spend a 
week or two in combat and the rest of your time driving to and from the 
garage.
     I think that annual maintenance as it applies to PCs (merchants)and 
annual maintenance as it applies to military/exploratory vessel should be 
completely different things.
     In the WTU*, annual maintenance is more akin to an official safety 
inspection than a complete overhaul.  Sure, certain systems and equipment 
will get a look-see and some repairs, but most work will be in the nature of 
deferred maintenance items and not major repairs and/or calibrations.  If 
your vessel's systems and equipment need repairs and calibrations, you're 
not schlepping groats between Fulacin and Rhylanor anyway.
     In the WTU, most of the canonical two week annual maintenance period is 
taken up with preparations and inspections, not with actual repairs.  The 
inspections aren't limited to systems and equipment either.  GT:FT 
introduced a formal system of required licenses and certificates for 
merchant vessel operation.  Previously licensed PCs may have be tested on 
their certifications again.  Part of the annual maintenance period may also 
be a series of shipboard drills or evolutions (either on their vessel or in 
a simulator) in which the crew's performance is evaluated.
     Unlike Mr. Smith and others, I've never put any precise rules in place 
for military/exploratory logistics and repairs.  As a GM, I simply assumed 
that the IN has a capable fleet train that can handle all but the biggest 
repair jobs.  This is modelled by USN practice in the Pacific Theater. IIRC, 
the fleet train in that case could handle quite complicated jobs, up to 
installing main batteries on CAs.
     In the case of the IISS, their long range vessels must have the 
capability to operate beyond the one-year maintenance limit.  We know that 
the Zhos send out Core Route fleets along a very thinly supported path.  The 
Sollies have despatched squadrons towards other arms in our galaxy.  The 
Imperium built, staffed, and operated "smaller" Longbow systems a few 
sectors coreward of the Vargr Extents.  The area in which those projects 
were built in could never be reached if the one-year maintenance rule could 
not be finagled with.
     So, what is your take on all of this?  Does it sound possible or is it 
just another Whipsnadian brain spasm?  Let's hear your ideas.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

* - WTU = Whipsnadian Traveller Universe, the oddest TU of all.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 20:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri May 10 19:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: IRC
Message-ID: <F158RC1uQdfNPqvWUpi00011478@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     As most of you have already surmised, I am about as sharp as a bowling 
ball.  Could anyone post a short primer on IRC?  Where to go, what to do, 
etc.?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen (that straw boater hides a point...)

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 20:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Fri May 10 19:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Request
In-Reply-To: <008501c1f849$368bd7c0$279793c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <000201c1f893$71ba4bc0$0b01a8c0@duck>

> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of MJ Dougherty
> What period/setting would folks most like to see a sourcebook on?

Well, being the Daryen lover that I am, I would like to see some
Spinward Marches material for different time peroids.

Three examples that immediately come to mind:

Year 0: No permanent Imperial or Zhodani settlements, but Daryens
and Sword Worlds are active.  This gives players *lots* of room
to maneuver.

Year 300-400: Imperial foothold, lots of independent settlements.
Still very much a frontier.

Year 1000: What is happening during T20-time?  Probably not much
different than 1100, but still interesting.

> What Big Mystery/Unanswered Question would you like to see a huge 
> adventure slowly unravelling?

I can't think of anything epic right now, but I do have a major
request:

Make sure that the revelation has in-game consequences.  One of
the biggest frustrations with the Ancients plot from CT was that
while the characters may have found out the secret, it was
completely irrelevant as it had absolutely no in-game effect.

And thank you for asking for input!

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 21:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May 10 20:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: IRC
In-Reply-To: <F158RC1uQdfNPqvWUpi00011478@hotmail.com>
References: <F158RC1uQdfNPqvWUpi00011478@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020511132050.A17772@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      As most of you have already surmised, I am about as sharp as a
> bowling ball.  Could anyone post a short primer on IRC?  Where to
> go, what to do, etc.?

There are undoubtedly plenty of primers on the net, but I'm too lazy
to look for them.  :)

Basically, you first need an IRC client program.  For MS Windows, I've
mainly used mIRC (www.mirc.com).  For Linux, I use X-Chat (on most
distributions, or xchat.org).  These are just samples, there are
probably hundreds of them floating out there on the net.

Once you've painlessly installed one on your system and fired it up,
you'll need to select a server.  The means of doing so various between
programs, the friendly ones have a built-in list of common servers
that you can just click or double-click.  "us.undernet.org" is
probably a good choice for the Traveller chat, or "eu.undernet.org" if
you're outside the US.  I've found that Undernet often rejects my
first few attempts to connect.  My program keeps trying until it
succeeds, which for me has taken about 2-10 attempts.

You might also want to select a nickname that others will see when you
type stuff.  You might be prompted for one, or the program might pick
a default from your login name if you have one.

Once the preliminaries are out of the way, you should be able to
select from a list of 'channels', starting with '#'.  On a text-based
program, you'll need to type '/join #traveller'.  On a GUI one, it may
present you with an extremely long and intimidating list for you to
browse through, or you may need to find "Channel List" in a menu.
Don't worry if there's thousands of channels, #traveller should be in
there somewhere.  Depending on you program, you may have some options
to narrow down the list.

Once you've joined in the channel (that was quick, wasn't it :), you
can just type lines of text in.  Other participants will see what
you've typed after you press 'enter'.  There are a few slightly fancy
commands, but once you're on the channel it's easy to ask how to do
them.

One problem that often occurs is 'lag' -- you type something, and
others don't see it for a minute or so (and vice versa).  So don't
worry too much if you don't get an immediate response.  Also remember
that people have to type their reply, and they might not be too fast
at typing.  A more serious problem is a 'net split', which disconnects
people using different servers.  If you see a bunch of people quit all
at once, that's probably what happened.  They will probably come back
automatically in a few minutes.


Oh dear, this is getting longer than I anticipated.  I hope to see you
in #traveller on Friday!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 21:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 10 20:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEKODNAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020510114642.00a78ec0@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CDC499D.31885.2DE758F@localhost>

I agree with the idea of doing a non Imperium subsector or sector 
but I ll take it one step further lets make it of a non human 
subsector book.  Pick one from the Hiver's or K'Kree or 
anyone.This lets us get a better look at their culture and history.  
This information can then be plugged into your Imperium games.  

As far as the scale goes I like the subsector scale but with the 
size of the a sector book not the CT books.  This allows more 
detail for each world, the history, culture NPCs places of interest 
and a course plot hooks. 

Tim




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 21:27:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 10 20:27:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Lite
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEKJDNAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020506102238.02278ba0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3CDC499D.14680.2DE7584@localhost>

This is a really cool idea.  As someone with all my Traveller stuff in 
storage having my hands on a PDF would be great.  Though I 
would like a CT version a GT version would probably be best since 
they already have done some lite rules sets for their games



On 10 May 2002, at 13:41, Swordy wrote:

> Is this thread dead or is there interest in actually running with this
> project? Looks like a very decent freebie PDF that could be linked of
> placed on many web sites.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > On Behalf Of "Derek Wildstar"
> >
> > I basically concur: it looks quite do-able.  I would go for the CT
> > rules set; although it's old, it also has the advantage that it's
> > uncomplicated and takes very little to explain.  Basic character
> > generation, skills, and interpersonal combat should be do-able in
> > just a few pages.  One possibility for prior service (which I have
> > used in CT campaigns), is to do the following:
> 
>  [snip lots of good stuff]
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 21:28:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 10 20:28:10 2002
Subject: [TML] All Psi party
In-Reply-To: <20020510113548.22585.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020510082332.A12385@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CDC499D.23601.2DE7598@localhost>

Daniel

Form what I understand of PSI in the Imperium it goes through 
cycles of acceptance and unacceptance.  So your free to decide in 
your campaign especially one set in the 100s how psi is treated.  
The two things I would keep in mind would be the closeness to the 
Zho and what the Zho are up too.  If you are close to and hate Zho 
the psi would probably be disliked or something like that.  

Though its a T4 product you might want to look into the  Psionics 
Institution book, it might help.  

Tim
> > 
> They've been careful about they're powers when in
> public, problem is I haven't taken them anywhere for
> long enough, for it to be too much of a problem yet.
> They met on Regina and spent most of their time in the
> Imperium hightailing it to the system of interest. I
> want to stay in the Imperium, at least, for the
> forseeable future. I just don't know how harsh I
> should make daily living. What happens if they run
> into Psis that are Imperial citizens? Will there be
> trouble because of Imperial tension with the Zhodani's
> or will there be some comradery or even awe from the
> Imp citizens?
> Thanks for your feedback.
> 
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> >
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 21:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Fri May 10 20:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <3CDC499D.31885.2DE758F@localhost>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEKODNAA.tml@downport.com>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020510114642.00a78ec0@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020511113100.026c7ac8@pop3.norton.antivirus>

At 10:28 PM 10/05/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>I agree with the idea of doing a non Imperium subsector or sector
>but I ll take it one step further lets make it of a non human
>subsector book.  Pick one from the Hiver's or K'Kree or
>anyone.This lets us get a better look at their culture and history.
>This information can then be plugged into your Imperium games.

Or even some 'new' aliens? If we are heading out of the Imperium, why not 
head outside of the majors, where there is already plenty of material, and 
create some new 'Major' races. This information can be plugged into the 
existing Imperium, or not, as your wants/needs dictate.
eg. Far to spinward and rimward, past the client states, are several Major 
races, still in early stages of 'empire building' (say jump1,2) 
experiencing the trials and tribulations of expansion competition with 
their neighbours.  This could be played on its own, or easily tied into the 
existing Imperium. Though Im yet to try it, I've always been interested in 
roleplaying alien PC's in a semi/completely alien setting.

>As far as the scale goes I like the subsector scale but with the
>size of the a sector book not the CT books.  This allows more
>detail for each world, the history, culture NPCs places of interest
>and a course plot hooks.

Hmm, I both like and dislike this idea at the same time. More information 
on each world/system makes it easier to quickly run games, but takes some 
of the fun out of world building yourself. Might be nice to see Far Trader 
style trade routes with BTN's, goods and alien ships for a new sector and 
its inhabitants. Likewise Star Mercs style information on the para/military 
groups operating amongst alien races, Ground Forces style military 
breakdowns of formal units and equipment.
And adventure hooks, lots of them! <grins>

ObTML : sure could open up discussion. New tributaries release stagnation 
from the dammed river...

Regards,
Andrei Nikulinsky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 21:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri May 10 20:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player...
In-Reply-To: <20020509.192331.-319743.3.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020511035532.F14D227A50@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/09/02 at 07:23 PM,  knightsky@juno.com said:

>> 	To everyone else who replied, thanks for all the info.  I've 
>> already read Book 1 and Book 4, and am slowly sifting through 
>> everything else.  I could probably live my life quite well without the
>starship 
>> rules, but I'm aching for the game setting info that I fear is 
>> hiding somewhere in book two or three.

>Actually, the original books didn't really have any campaign setting
>(that would show up later in the Adventures and Supplements).  Still,
>I would recommend getting Books 2-3, as they can be had (usually) for
>cheap.

In the beginning, Traveller didn't have *a* campaign setting. The
first three books gave the Referee and players the material they
needed to play in their own setting. The Imperium setting grew,
slowly, over the years with bits and pieces accumulated in the
subsequent books and, especially, the pages of the GDW house
magazine...The Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society (JTAS). 

You said something about getting 50+ Traveller related books? I bet
that includes some of the JTAS issues, yes? Those are more important
for getting a feel for Traveller than *anything* else...IMO, others
may disagree.  Also, if you also got a hardback called The Traveller
Book then you have books 0 through 3, with some additions, so you'd be
set.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 22:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri May 10 21:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Wargaming
In-Reply-To: <F244mllgYBr4BvRnfvc0000200b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020511040553.A261A27A50@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/10/02 at 01:48 AM,  "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> said:

>From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>

>     "A question for all you wargaming guru's out there.  What is the
>best  way to get involved in wargaming?"

>Mr. Walker,

>     Phew...  Where to begin...  It's sort of like asking someone how
>to  begin READING, there's just so many ways to go about it.
>     Someone on the List may have suggested this already, but have
>you  checked out any local college/university student unions?  Or
>your FLAGS?   Sitting down and playing a game or four would be a
>great idea, sort of like  taking a test drive.

Don't forget to check with the local community colleges. They
sometimes have gaming clubs, too.  Once upon a time, long ago, Avalon
Hill had a registry for wargamers. I know AH is dead, but someone
continued their wargaming line, didn't they, maybe they continued the
registry as well. 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 22:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Fri May 10 21:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player...
In-Reply-To: <20020511035532.F14D227A50@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020509.192331.-319743.3.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020511120229.026d0ce8@pop3.norton.antivirus>

>
>In the beginning, Traveller didn't have *a* campaign setting.

"Introductory Adventure" blew my mind! Defective starship, major mission, 
and a book full of world/system data with no maps made our first games of 
Traveller interesting to say the least. On two occaisions, the mission in 
our games quickly diverged inot other stuff, and the survey was ignored. 
Perhaps this was the intention.
Its been a long time since I have thought about these early games. Did 
anyone else play or referee this adventure, and get any further? Did anyone 
EVER finish the survey?

regards,
Andrei Nikulinsky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 22:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 10 21:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020511113100.026c7ac8@pop3.norton.antivirus>
References: <3CDC499D.31885.2DE758F@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CDC567C.27449.310BE40@localhost>

True enough doing whole new Aliens add to the cannon and create 
new ideas.  

> Or even some 'new' aliens? If we are heading out of the Imperium, why
> not head outside of the majors, where there is already plenty of
> material, and create some new 'Major' races. This information can be
> plugged into the existing Imperium, or not, as your wants/needs
> dictate. eg. Far to spinward and rimward, past the client states, are
> several Major races, still in early stages of 'empire building' (say
> jump1,2) experiencing the trials and tribulations of expansion
> competition with their neighbours.  This could be played on its own,
> or easily tied into the existing Imperium. Though Im yet to try it,
> I've always been interested in roleplaying alien PC's in a
> semi/completely alien setting.
> 
> >As far as the scale goes I like the subsector scale but with the size
> >of the a sector book not the CT books.  This allows more detail for
> >each world, the history, culture NPCs places of interest and a course
> >plot hooks.
> 
> Hmm, I both like and dislike this idea at the same time. More
> information on each world/system makes it easier to quickly run games,
> but takes some of the fun out of world building yourself. Might be
> nice to see Far Trader style trade routes with BTN's, goods and alien
> ships for a new sector and its inhabitants. Likewise Star Mercs style
> information on the para/military groups operating amongst alien races,
> Ground Forces style military breakdowns of formal units and equipment.
> And adventure hooks, lots of them! <grins>

I like all these ideas even to the point of reducing the amount of 
history and society to replace it with trade routes BTN goods etc.  
This creates back ground for everyone to develop their own history 
and society and this is cool.  




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 22:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri May 10 21:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Request
Message-ID: <3CDC9D65.B5281381@mail.cswnet.com>

Patrik Holmstrm writes:
>I try to comment on all designs (provided I have the time) but I know
>almost nothing about CT, HG and MT designs. It doesn't help that most >ship characteristics are encoded in a way that is almost impossible to >decode without the rules. :)

Oh come on! It can't be THAT difficult.

>>>What would you like to see in the future for this
>>>project?  What ships would you like to cover, and how
>>>should it be done?
>>2. Maneuver capable Express Boat
>Like a X-boat? If so most designs will probably be virtually >identical.

Maybe, if your using some of the older stuff. GT [especially with
GURPS Space and GURPS Vehicles] could come up with some variations.
TNE could too. I don't like messing with GT and TNE designs that much
but I sure like to look at what others put out.

>>3. Colonization ship

>Also fun.

Would tie in nicely with the Exploration cruiser.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 22:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri May 10 21:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed
Message-ID: <F197qyAVrSqv25voPS0000115aa@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Stumbled across this news tidbit and immediately saw the Traveller 
possibilities.

http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,4242976%255E2761,00.html

     While I had the pleasure of visiting Perth/Fremantle twice during my 
time in the Navy, I must profess I never heard of the business(es) 
mentioned.  (sigh)  It would have made things so much more simple...

ObTrav - Your PCs are temporarily stranded on a low-pop world, or perhaps 
they must stay there for some other reason.  Then significant portions of 
the 212th Fleet after wargames for some R&R.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 22:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri May 10 21:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: IRC
Message-ID: <F111eLoTBO8HpVg4fMO00011678@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

     "There are undoubtedly plenty of primers on the net, but I'm too lazy 
to look for them.  :) "


Mr. Little,

     Thanks for the primer, sir.
     Sloth is one of my reasons too.  Being overwhelmed is another.
     I'm sure a Google search would have turned up reams of information, 
would have turned up TOO much information actually.  I would been waddling 
through site after site trying to find the few paragraphs you so kindly 
posted.  That's the major unintended consequence of the Information Age; 
trying to separate the wheat from the chaff.
     Thanks again for the primer.  I hope to see you, and lots of others, at 
the chat on Friday too.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 22:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Fri May 10 21:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Lite
In-Reply-To: <3CDC499D.14680.2DE7584@localhost>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMOELJDNAA.tml@jtas.org>

I'd really rather it be something approved and sealed by FFE directly. The
simplified CT idea is likely best. Simplest, and it goes along with the
reprints. But it could also be used with about anything published on
Freelance Traveller, for instance. Not to mention sourcebooks, TML and TA
articles and whatever else.

I think the framework already presented has merit. Thankfully it would
mostly entail editing out chunks of Books 1-3. Kind of a slimmed-down
version of the FFE 000 put out by Hunter at Quiklink. The it could be made
available for download on Marc's site, Hunter's site, Free Trav, etc.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> On Behalf Of timothyreynolds@earthlink.net
>
> This is a really cool idea.  As someone with all my Traveller stuff in
> storage having my hands on a PDF would be great.  Though I
> would like a CT version a GT version would probably be best since
> they already have done some lite rules sets for their games



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 22:50:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri May 10 21:50:35 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMOEKKDNAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020511044931.3470927A5C@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/10/02 at 02:01 PM,  "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> said:

>> What period/setting would folks most like to see a sourcebook on?

>Would it be possible to make sourcebooks on certain subsectors,
>including a set of timeline highlights, instead of a time period? I
>tend to use content and ignore "milieu", Era, etc.

Like the _Pilot's Guide to the Drexellar Subsector_ that the Keiths
did way back when. Maybe something like: A subsector map and UWP's (2
pages);.An overview of the subsector's history (4 or 5 pages); A one,
two or three page write up, including map, of each mainworld in the
subsector (40+ pages); A subsector encyclopedia (8+ pages); and a
directory of important companies and organizations existing in the
subsector (8+ pages); and get it all into a 64 page book.

>> What Big Mystery/Unanswered Question would you like to see a huge
>> adventure slowly unravelling?

I'm not really interested in Big Mystery/Unanswer Question stuff.  

You know, this is weird coming from me because I'm not into comics,
but I'd like to see a strip, or of comic books following the
adventures of a band of Travellers.  Heck, take a well known old
adventure like "The Traveller Adventure" and present is as a series of
comic books (geeze, I don't like comic is there another term for these
things?) would have a much bigger market than just the Trav-grognards.
It would probably be a great way to draw in more younger players. It
would be a good way to teach Traveller to folks that might like to
play, but don't have "that Traveller feeling" yet.

Eris 

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 22:52:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri May 10 21:52:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Annual Maintenance
Message-ID: <3CDCA253.CE016813@mail.cswnet.com>

The Great Whipsnade expounds:
>So, what is your take on all of this?  Does it sound possible or is it
>just another Whipsnadian brain spasm?

Don't you just hate brain spasms. Almost as bad as tumors.
But not quite.

My own thoughts are:
Walt Smiths rules work well for ships in high intensity combat, but
breakdown in non combat situations. Others don't really address it 
that well.

CT/HG2 never has been clear on the subject, and while I have'nt looked
at the other systems, I'd be willing to bet that they are a little fuzzy
about it too.

About the only the that is clear is that, for long range endurance
purposes, you better have a fuel purification plant on board.

>The Imperium built, staffed, and operated "smaller" Longbow systems a >few sectors coreward of the Vargr Extents.  The area in which those >projects were built in could never be reached if the one-year >maintenance rule could not be finagled with.

The trick is how to finagle it. It appears to be more than this
INT 6 brain damaged person can handle!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 23:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri May 10 22:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEKODNAA.tml@downport.com>
Message-ID: <20020511050259.BB3E727A53@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/10/02 at 03:48 PM,  "Swordy" <tml@downport.com> said:

>> I'm sure I'm in the minority, but for me - The Imperium has been done to
>> death - the amount of setting/historical minutia that's been detailed is
>> staggering... I'd like to see something less background specific and more
>> general...

>"Me too"

AOL. <g>

>> Such a sourcebook that would allow my PCs to set out for parts unknown and
>> run a complete campaign in a new semi-blank sector that would allow me,
>the
>> ref., having to generate absolutely everything from scratch -
>> this is what I am talking about.

>Something new, someplace else. And it doesn't have to be a whole
>sector. A subsector with twenty places to visit is a huge
>undertaking.

Anyone interested in this sort of thing should visit Carlos
Alos-Ferrer's "Beyond the Extents" website at
http://members.lycos.co.uk/caf/bte/bte.html You can even download the
basic setting as a 24 page pdf.  

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 23:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 10 22:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Droyne
Message-ID: <20020510.220708.-116943.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Fri, 10 May 2002 18:54:56 -0700 "Glenn M. Goffin"
<gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
> >From: generalturokan@juno.com
> >
> ><suddenly a Colonial 60k dton battle cruiser exits jump space over
> >Glenn's planet, soon followed by 48 smaller vessels in a fleet>
> 
> What planet?  [Slight gravitational distortion as world disappears.  
> Maybe it went into a pocket universe.]

<Aboard the General's flagship>

<Simultaneously>
Helm: Excuse me sir, but I'm reading major distortions here.
Nav: Sir, I can't keep an orbital lock.
Comm: Sir, I've just lost complete contact with the surface.
Tactical: Sir, all bombardment locks have disappeared.

General: WHAT!!!
                Has everybody gone mad?
                Check all your systems.
                Con: Get me a visual stat!
Con: I'm sorry sir, but there's nothing out there.
General: WHAT! Give me a full sensor sweep on the double.
Sensors: Sir, there's nothing here but our fleet.
General: Signal the fleet, evasive maneuvers, head for the nearest gas
giant, refuel, and prepare to jump.

<Personal log>
 Entered system, encountered a strange phenomenon. Glenn's home world
disappeared from all contact. Sensor's, visual, everything. I've decided
a hasty retreat was my best option. I'll be keeping an eye on this
system.
<End log>

General Turokan


..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 23:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Fri May 10 22:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <m3it5wro7n.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <f3qmdu4uevu2v8grn8jv2tlsvek1agd92q@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3CDC6FCA.1984.4490B3@localhost>

On 10 May 2002 at 9:56, Robert Uhl wrote:

> Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:
> >
> > Neither 'Crusty' nor 'Sunbeard' was objecting to the 'chaff'; the
> > problem that they perceive--and which, quite frankly, I agree
> > with--is that we seem to _prefer_ the chaff to the actual 'signal.'
> 
> That's the whole point of an unmoderated mailing list.  It's a place
> for people who enjoy a product to get together and chat about it and
> about their commons concerns.
> 
> Once again, this is why I opposed--and do still oppose--tml-chat so
> much.  If we wanted to be on-topic, all the time, it'd be a moderated
> list, and maybe have 3 messages a month.  And there'd be a void in our
> lives, and there'd be a TML somewhere out there, by another name.

Well, if many people don't like the chaff, perhaps we could leave 
the TML unmoderated and add a list of "pure signal filtered from 
the noise" (TML-DSP?).  A list of the 'best of' postings as they 
happen - a "cliff's notes" or "TML Nightly News".

Setting up a moderated list is no problem - the big question of 
course, is WHO is going to do that and will readers trust that 
person's judgement of what's signal?  I'm assuming a group 
approval (or at least a nomination and second) by the list is way 
too time and bandwidth consuming (though not for the 'Best of the 
TML' that's out there, which filters things even more than I'm 
thinking about).

If several people want to do it, there could be multiple lists 
and you pick the one that seems to post what you like.  

Personally, I'd still stay with the TML and judge for myself, but 
for those that would prefer it, or those who've left that might 
be enticed back, maybe it would be worthwhile.  Sadly, I 
certainly don't have the time to do it [unless you want postings 
weeks and months behind :) ].

Just an idea,

Rob D.
 
--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
You can't sit on the lid of progress.
If you do, you will be blown to pieces. -- Henry Kaiser




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 23:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 10 22:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player and Comic or Eris the Mind reader
Message-ID: <3CDC6520.16889.349EFD9@localhost>

In the last two post Eris you have completely read my mind.  I to 
think that JTAS was the best campaign creator of all the Traveller 
materials. Its what kept me holding my breathing wondering if there 
was going to be war in the Marshes.  

The second one is the comic idea.  Just this morning I was 
thinking that Traveller lacked the unifying visual force of Star Wars 
or Boulder Gate/Conan the Barbarian for D&D. In Star Wars RPG 
you say you are now on Tatooine and a guy with Light Sabre is in 
front of you and the players have a common images to draw on. 
Traveller really lacks this we know a movie is to costly to do right 
so why not a 

For this reason I completely agree a Graphic Novel would be 
interesting and add a lot to the community.  

Eris Graphic Novel is that better



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 23:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri May 10 22:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] MCS Location?
In-Reply-To: <000701c1f766$cecab300$2d41510c@0tk0e>
Message-ID: <20020511053151.CE43327A53@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/09/02 at 07:35 AM,  "Bruce Macintosh"
<bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net> said:

>> >Hi,
>> >
>> >Where can I pick up a current copy of the MCS rules?
>> >
>> >Derek Wildstar
>>
>> The usual procedure involves sending an email to
>> bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net
>>
>> Bruce Macintosh has been really busy detecting extra solar planets and have
>> not been able to work on MCS the last year or so.

>The word "attempting" is missing from this sentence, unfortunately.

>But I'm happy to send MCS copies to people with the usual
>disclaimers.

Bruce, 

Have you considered allowing someone to put the current draft of MCS
on the web for download?

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 10 23:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (ondy)
Date: Fri May 10 22:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed
In-Reply-To: <F197qyAVrSqv25voPS0000115aa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020511124952.026cc438@pop3.norton.antivirus>

>
>     Stumbled across this news tidbit and immediately saw the Traveller 
> possibilities.
>
>http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,4242976%255E2761,00.html
>
>     While I had the pleasure of visiting Perth/Fremantle twice during my 
> time in the Navy, I must profess I never heard of the business(es) 
> mentioned.  (sigh)  It would have made things so much more simple...
>
>ObTrav - Your PCs are temporarily stranded on a low-pop world, or perhaps 
>they must stay there for some other reason.  Then significant portions of 
>the 212th Fleet after wargames for some R&R.

This is my home town. The gearhead in me is always excited by the arrival 
of US vessels in the harbour. It amusing to see many additional faces 
around the area of the houses of ill repute in Fremantle. It is popular 
local 'folk lore' that the 'worker' population in this field doubles and 
trebles in the area for the duration.

regards,
Andrei Nikulinsky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 00:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri May 10 23:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player and Comic or Eris the Mind reader
In-Reply-To: <3CDC6520.16889.349EFD9@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020511060447.1D97727A53@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/11/02 at 12:26 AM,  timothyreynolds@earthlink.net said:

>In the last two post Eris you have completely read my mind.  

No! No, I  was *not* the one that read you mind. Move along now. <g>

>I to 
>think that JTAS was the best campaign creator of all the Traveller 
>materials. Its what kept me holding my breathing wondering if there 
>was going to be war in the Marshes.  

Everybody knows I don't stick the the published TU, but in most cases
the JTAS and Challenge material was generic enough so I could "file
off" the serial numbers and use it in my games. 

>The second one is the comic idea.  Just this morning I was  thinking
>that Traveller lacked the unifying visual force of Star Wars  or
>Boulder Gate/Conan the Barbarian for D&D. In Star Wars RPG  you say
>you are now on Tatooine and a guy with Light Sabre is in  front of
>you and the players have a common images to draw on.  Traveller
>really lacks this we know a movie is to costly to do right  so why
>not a 

>For this reason I completely agree a Graphic Novel would be 
>interesting and add a lot to the community.  

>Eris Graphic Novel is that better

Yes, it is. I think I could bring myself to buy a "graphic novel." <g>
Do we have anyone on the list with the skills to do this? 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 00:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri May 10 23:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] I'm so pi$$ed...
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36DD@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I just realised I forgot about the JTAS chat last night.  AGAIN!  There was one last week too and I forgot that one as well!  ARRRGGH!!

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 00:55:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri May 10 23:55:32 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36DE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Image...did not...need!

AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<runs away screaming>

;)
Jesse


> Didn't we give Doug Berry the boot?


No no no it was das boot. He plays with it in the bathtub, making 
b-b-b-b-b noises.

It keeps the penguins distracted.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 00:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri May 10 23:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] test ping...
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36E0@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Something weird may be going on with my work e-mail....

Jesse DeGraff
Video Production Specialist
Network Appliance, Inc.
The Evolution of Storage(tm) 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 01:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Sat May 11 00:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test ping...
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36E0@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <3CDCC6FA.9000808@attbi.com>


DeGraff, Jesse wrote:

> Something weird may be going on with my work e-mail....

Or is it their watching you Fnord.
-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss,
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 01:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Sat May 11 00:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player and Comic or Eris the Mind reader
In-Reply-To: <20020511060447.1D97727A53@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKELMDNAA.tml@jtas.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Eris Reddoch
>
> Yes, it is. I think I could bring myself to buy a "graphic novel." <g>
> Do we have anyone on the list with the skills to do this?

Just keep your kilt on. My BESM Traveller book will be done within the week.

Issue #1: "Hold on Beowulf, Yamamoto is on the way!" [due mid-May]

Issue #2: "Kimba the Aslan Mercenary" [due June 14th]



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 01:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Sat May 11 00:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEMECDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CDCC805.5060002@attbi.com>


Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>>
>>At 01:24 PM 5/7/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>>That said, the number of people officially banned from the TML over the 
>>>years is quite small: three (iirc), and each was given multiple chances.
>>>
>>Leroy, Clif, and who else?
>>
> 
> Didn't we give Doug Berry the boot?

We discussed it, but he was the test Subc^c^c^ pilot for the PMPG...
-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss,
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 01:29:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Sat May 11 00:29:10 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020510164646.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CDCC846.9050508@attbi.com>


Douglas Berry wrote:


> And it is a very nice boot, although I prefer lower heels.  Can i have 
> the mare soon?

No, we saw what you did with the last one.
-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss,
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 01:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Sat May 11 00:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Short Guide To Law Aboard Ship
References: <200205101914.FYY07829@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CDCCAA6.5040702@attbi.com>


John T. Kwon wrote:

> There's a thread going on about laws applying aboard ship.
> 
> There's an old RU piece called the Rules of Oleron, at 
> http://www.admiraltylawguide.com/documents/oleron.html
> 
> Now, I wouldn't want to start to write Admiralty Law, but... 
> this would be a good piece to translate into a TU form.  

Good link man... This has the perfect feel for the traveller universe.
The sort of articles and agreements a starship would have to abide by.

A lot of current Admiralty Law is based on the facts of modern 
communication equipment and reportage standards.


-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss,
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 03:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat May 11 02:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: IRC
In-Reply-To: <20020511132050.A17772@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000001c1fb2a$7262a470$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Timothy Little
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 20:21
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Information, please: IRC

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      As most of you have already surmised, I am about as sharp as a
> bowling ball.  Could anyone post a short primer on IRC?  Where to
> go, what to do, etc.?

There are undoubtedly plenty of primers on the net, but I'm too lazy
to look for them.  :)

Basically, you first need an IRC client program.  For MS Windows, I've
mainly used mIRC (www.mirc.com).  For Linux, I use X-Chat (on most
distributions, or xchat.org).  These are just samples, there are
probably hundreds of them floating out there on the net.


- Tim
_______________________________________________


What do you use for a Macintosh?  I just got a job with Strem tech
support and it was for Mac support - I know nothing of Macs..So I went
out and purchased a G4 Quicksilver to play around on.

To you other Mac people - If youhave suggestions, cool software
(especially Traveller related) please do hook me up or point me in the
right direction.

BTW I am running OS X (my preference).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 04:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat May 11 03:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: IRC
In-Reply-To: <000001c1fb2a$7262a470$6401a8c0@GOCA>
References: <000001c1fb2a$7262a470$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <m3znz7knae.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com> writes:
> 
> What do you use for a Macintosh?

Ircle, which I remember using back in my Mac days (I'm a full-time
Unix man these days).  The website is <http://www.ircle.com/>.

Google's a great thing: macintosh irc; follow first link:-)

> I just got a job with Strem tech support and it was for Mac
> support--I know nothing of Macs...  So I went out and purchased a G4
> Quicksilver to play around on.

Cool!  They've some nice advantages.  The hardware is typically much
better than the run-of-the-mill clone, generally about as good as IBM
PC hardware.  The operating environment and applications have
historically been very good indeed.  The OS has generally been nothing
to write home about.  OS X changes that, of course.

> To you other Mac people: if you have suggestions, cool software
> (especially Traveller related) please do hook me up or point me in
> the right direction.

Rob Prior has written some software:
<http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/Traveller_pages/RPS.html>.  He's also
written some stuff for Space:1889, if you're into that wonderful old
game (now back in print <http://www.heliograph.com/>).  There's more
Mac software at
<http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/infocenter/swlist/macprogs.html>.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Crist is arisen!  Arisen he sothe!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 04:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat May 11 03:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <3CDC6FCA.1984.4490B3@localhost>
References: <f3qmdu4uevu2v8grn8jv2tlsvek1agd92q@4ax.com>
 <3CDC6FCA.1984.4490B3@localhost>
Message-ID: <m3vg9vkn2e.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Rob Davenport" <rgd@infinet.com> writes:
> 
> Well, if many people don't like the chaff, perhaps we could leave 
> the TML unmoderated and add a list of "pure signal filtered from 
> the noise" (TML-DSP?).  A list of the 'best of' postings as they 
> happen - a "cliff's notes" or "TML Nightly News".

Now that's a good idea.  But I've no idea who the moderator would be.
It'd certainly be a quit list:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Anesti!  Alithos Anesti!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 05:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat May 11 04:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Wargaming
In-Reply-To: <3CDBE860.6020502@magpiesnest.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CDDA2DE.4496.83AC4A0@localhost>

On 10 May 2002, at 16:33, Mark Preston wrote:

> course, you do get the odd one or two (like myself) that really go for
> naval battles...the point is to know what you are interested in doing.

Hey, its good to know I'm not the only one. And we don't have to 
spend a kings ransom on our terrain <g>

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 05:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat May 11 04:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: my milieu wishlist
References: <Springmail.0994.1021073779.0.89996100@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000201c1f8dd$e5ea8f60$b100a8c0@imogen>

Trent wrote:
> The other milieu sourcebook I'd like to see is the Psionic
> Supressions.  While the focus/appeal of this would obviously be
> narrower than most other propsed milieux, IMO there's enough
> game-able potential to make it worthwhile, at least as a single
> sourcebook (while I think the IW Era is ripe for an entire
> product line).  And besides, it would finally give a leitimate
> OTU pretext to run one of those Psi-oriented X-Men style
> cabal-of-misunderstood-dogooders campaigns that's tempted all
> of us at least once or twice.  

Anyone remember Psi World RPG?  It allowed a GM to run a campaign
from either side of  the  psionic  issue  ...  psi-talenteds  are
criminal Vs psi-talenteds are a persecuted group.  And  IIRC  the
Keith brothers did a couple of adventures for it.  The background
could be adapted to the Traveller  universe  during  the  Psionic
Supressions quite easily .

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 05:19:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat May 11 04:19:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Annual Maintenance
References: <F3AxCtuTRjtyntahJGy00011458@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000301c1f8dd$e667aea0$b100a8c0@imogen>

Larsen wrote:
> Take a map of the Spinward Marches, mark down all the Imperial
> class "A" and "B" ports at TL14/15, then try to imagine the
> Imperial Navy cycling EVERY warship in EVERY fleet through
> those locations EVERY year.  Add navy bases and depots to your
> map and the exercise still remains formidable.

IIRC WBH (or some other  product)  mentioned  that  there  was  a
minimum  TL  for  starports  depending  on   their   class.   The
starport's actual TL is the higher of either this minimum or  the
world's TL.

It occurs to me that the Imperium (or whoever) wouldn't  normally
use a civilian starport for maintenance  of  military  ships  ...
that naval bases would do this almost exclusively for reasons  of
security.  And it also occurs to me that with the  Imperial  Navy
at TL14/15 that this would be the minimum TL of *all*  its  naval
bases and depots.

(When talking about worlds TL typically refers to  TL  of  localy
produced goods, but when talking about  starports,  naval  bases,
and other facilities then TL refers to its capabilities ...  high
tech spare parts can always be imported.)



> It was noted on the "CT-Sarships" list last year that the
> Julian Protectorate has quite a problem with annual
> maintenance.  The only TL15, class "A" port available to that
> polity is so far away from the Julian's borders with the
> Imperials and K'Kree that warships being maintained there would
> spend the majority of their operational time simply travelling
> back and forth between the port and the front(s).  Strange way
> to fight, spend a week or two in combat and the rest of your
> time driving to and from the garage.

I haven't looked at the Julian Protectorate but it could ship  in
TL15 parts on transports to local naval bases  while  the  combat
vessels stay "in theater".



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 05:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat May 11 04:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Avenging Aphid
In-Reply-To: <3CDC6604.22EB607E@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3CDDA835.6713.84F9F70@localhost>

On 10 May 2002, at 19:29, Roseberry wrote:

> >This ship was designed using AMV's High Guard Shipyard.
> 
> Where can I find this? Does it use excel?

http://www.downport.com/amv/software/hgs.html

No it doesn't use excel, its stand alone.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 05:25:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat May 11 04:25:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: my milieu wishlist
In-Reply-To: <Springmail.0994.1021073779.0.89996100@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CDDA835.9606.84F9F70@localhost>

On 10 May 2002, at 16:36, trentfs@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> >The Interstellar Wars.
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly with this one.  It really seems a natural area
> to explore, considering that the history (through 'Imperium') and
> setting (through S10 and GT:RoF) are both familiar, and now we're even
> going to be getting IW Era fiction (from MJD, starting in TA#2).  All
> that's needed is for someone (Andrew Moffatt-Valance?) to stitch
> everything together into a cohesive RPG-able package.  The thematic

I have been working slowly on exactly this for BITS for sometime, 
just everytime I get going something seems to come up in my life 
to delay it (at this point it a commercially sensitive software 
project). But I do set aside at least an hour a week.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 05:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat May 11 04:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Request
In-Reply-To: <20020510181454.14598.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <B901525D.5AB45%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CDDA9AB.26249.85553A9@localhost>

On 10 May 2002, at 11:14, Paul Walker wrote:

> Might I request some discussion of the future of
> ISSDEC?  I am somewhat disturbed by the lack of
> response.  I won't post my complete feelings on the

I'm busy writing up the descriptive text for my submission. Its a T20 
design (15,000Kton plus carried craft)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 08:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat May 11 07:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #515 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020511072905.310EB27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020511072905.310EB27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <728qduouge88o819gosb5ii1p19db8srq5@4ax.com>

On Sat, 11 May 2002 00:28:03 -0700, "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
wrote:

>You know, this is weird coming from me because I'm not into comics,
>but I'd like to see a strip, or of comic books following the
>adventures of a band of Travellers.  Heck, take a well known old
>adventure like "The Traveller Adventure" and present is as a series of
>comic books

A single comic book - the thick kind, that they usually seem to call
'Graphic Novels' these days.  And find other Traveller stories to do this
with.

>            (geeze, I don't like comic is there another term for these
>things?)

I'd have suggested 'Graphic Stories' (and when the story is novel length,
we already have 'Graphic Novels'), but the use of 'graphic' could be
ambiguous.

How about 'Drawn Dramas'?

>         would have a much bigger market than just the Trav-grognards.
>It would probably be a great way to draw in more younger players. It
>would be a good way to teach Traveller to folks that might like to
>play, but don't have "that Traveller feeling" yet.

How much overlap is there between 'gamers' and 'comic readers'?  Most of
the discussion I hear about comics is collector oriented; they don't buy
the stuff to read, but simply to have as a collection item.  Or at least so
it seems.  Is there a 'living' comic market?  If there is, then this idea
might just work as intended - and I think it would be a good one under
those circumstances.

What I think might work _better_ would be to take regular novels set in the
Traveller milieu, and bind a 'Traveller Lite' into the back, as a 'free
bonus'.  A series of novels, each standing alone, but with a common thread
(perhaps the same party as protagonists), might very well pull in a bunch
of people.  Note: If possible, _don't_ limit the genre of the novels to SF.
SF and Fantasy are still considered 'tainted' to some extent.  Get (some
of) them classified next to Tom Clancy adventures, and we might have
something...

I also think it would be good for Traveller material to get shelf space at
Barnes and Noble - I know that D&D does, and apparently it sells well
enough to keep it going; can that be leveraged in some way?  T20?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 09:03:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat May 11 08:03:06 2002
Subject: [TML] "low" temperature superconducting transformer
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020511110347.029ba310@pop.wizard.net>

This new development is in the news, and of interest to some TMLers, I'm sure.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/02/020221073146.htm

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 09:23:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat May 11 08:23:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Russian translations.
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020511082136.009fb2e0@mindspring.com>

OK, my usual sources appeared to have run off to defend the nation, so I 
need some help.

I need the closest Russian translations for the following words:

Committee

Tree Vodka

Starport

A good name for a Startown district would be helpful as well.


If you can help me with these, please mail the translations to me at 
gridlore@mindspring.com ASAP!

Thanks!

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 09:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat May 11 08:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: my milieu wishlist
In-Reply-To: <000201c1f8dd$e5ea8f60$b100a8c0@imogen>
References: <Springmail.0994.1021073779.0.89996100@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020511112940.027332a8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:45 AM 5/11/2002 +0100, Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
>Trent wrote:
> > The other milieu sourcebook I'd like to see is the Psionic
> > Supressions.  While the focus/appeal of this would obviously be
> > narrower than most other propsed milieux, IMO there's enough
> > game-able potential to make it worthwhile, at least as a single
> > sourcebook (while I think the IW Era is ripe for an entire
> > product line).  And besides, it would finally give a leitimate
> > OTU pretext to run one of those Psi-oriented X-Men style
> > cabal-of-misunderstood-dogooders campaigns that's tempted all
> > of us at least once or twice.
>Anyone remember Psi World RPG?  It allowed a GM to run a campaign
>from either side of  the  psionic  issue  ...  psi-talenteds  are
>criminal Vs psi-talenteds are a persecuted group.  And  IIRC  the
>Keith brothers did a couple of adventures for it.  The background
>could be adapted to the Traveller  universe  during  the  Psionic
>Supressions quite easily .

Way out of print though...Has any company picked it up?
With short run printing technology, the owners could have it back in print 
for a couple of Thousand US$.

I've got my copy squirrelled away...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 09:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat May 11 08:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Annual Maintenance
In-Reply-To: <000301c1f8dd$e667aea0$b100a8c0@imogen>
References: <F3AxCtuTRjtyntahJGy00011458@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020511113227.0216d008@192.168.0.1>

At 11:45 AM 5/11/2002 +0100, Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
>Larsen wrote:
> > Take a map of the Spinward Marches, mark down all the Imperial
> > class "A" and "B" ports at TL14/15, then try to imagine the
> > Imperial Navy cycling EVERY warship in EVERY fleet through
> > those locations EVERY year.  Add navy bases and depots to your
> > map and the exercise still remains formidable.
>IIRC WBH (or some other  product)  mentioned  that  there  was  a
>minimum  TL  for  starports  depending  on   their   class.   The
>starport's actual TL is the higher of either this minimum or  the
>world's TL.
>It occurs to me that the Imperium (or whoever) wouldn't  normally
>use a civilian starport for maintenance  of  military  ships  ...
>that naval bases would do this almost exclusively for reasons  of
>security.  And it also occurs to me that with the  Imperial  Navy
>at TL14/15 that this would be the minimum TL of *all*  its  naval
>bases and depots.
>(When talking about worlds TL typically refers to  TL  of  localy
>produced goods, but when talking about  starports,  naval  bases,
>and other facilities then TL refers to its capabilities ...  high
>tech spare parts can always be imported.)

 From 
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.html>

Chief Yard Dog: "We've completed your annual maintenance. The old girl was 
in pretty good shape except for a few things. Nothing we couldn't handle."

Captain: "Problems? What kind of problems?"

CYD: "Well your heat exchanger on the fuel purifier was on it's last legs. 
Accident waiting to happen really. I didn't have the exact replacement 
model available, but my guys fitted in a comparable unit. You won't miss 
that tonne of cargo space anyway."

Captain: "'Tonne of cargo space'? By Klono's Brass Bustier! That's a 
merchant ship! What in the Nine Levels of Nirvania did you do to chew up a 
tonne of cargo space!?!"

CYD: "Well the model I had in stock is much larger than the one I had to 
remove. Then there was the incompatible cable links. Then we had to add a 
Phase II Stepdown Transformer to deal with the differences in the power 
systems. In order to get it all in, we had to cut down a section of wall 
between engineering and the cargo bay. We were going to build bulkheads 
around it, but the excess heat in the closed space would have exceeded the 
limits of your life support system. Rather than take the two months to rip 
out your life support and upgrade it, we just let the heat radiate into the 
cargo bay. It's big enough to disapate the heat."

Captain, now sputtering: "You cut a hole between my engine room and cargo 
bay! This is insane. I'm going to the Port Manager with this!"

CYD, shrugging: "Who do you think approved the work? You wouldn't have been 
approved for lift with that old unit. I tried to order in a replacement, 
but it's on backorder. At least six months to obtain one, if we're lucky. 
The docking fees for that time wouldn't be much more than the cost of these 
repairs, but you would have been grounded and not making money during that 
time."

The Captain looks at the hole in his cargo bay, and collection of machinery 
taking up valuable cargo space. The Captain starts to cry...


The moral of this story is: Yes, you can have the annual maintenance of 
your TL F starship done at a TL C starport, but you probably don't want to...




> > It was noted on the "CT-Sarships" list last year that the
> > Julian Protectorate has quite a problem with annual
> > maintenance.  The only TL15, class "A" port available to that
> > polity is so far away from the Julian's borders with the
> > Imperials and K'Kree that warships being maintained there would
> > spend the majority of their operational time simply travelling
> > back and forth between the port and the front(s).  Strange way
> > to fight, spend a week or two in combat and the rest of your
> > time driving to and from the garage.
>
>I haven't looked at the Julian Protectorate but it could ship  in
>TL15 parts on transports to local naval bases  while  the  combat
>vessels stay "in theater".
>
>
>
>Regards PLST
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/3584/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 10:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Sat May 11 09:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Russian translations.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020511082136.009fb2e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPCEIBDJAA.max200@lanset.com>

Committee = Komitet = Kaw-mih-tet = direct translation like KGB

Tree Vodka = Vodka Dereva = Voht-ka Dehr-eh-vah = Literal tranlation
although I suggest using:
Birch Tree Vodka = Vodka Beryezi = Vot-ka Behr-yoh-zih = This sounds better
because Tree Vodka sounds artificial in Russian although it could exist.
Brich Tree Vodka sounds more natural and the Birch tree has many traditional
meanings in Russian culture.

Starport = Zvezdaport = Z-vez-da-poh-rt = Direct translation although the
word "port" in Russian has a stronger connotation of harbour rather than
port (not that there's a lot of difference between the two). The word "bort"
(Boh-rt) has more of a port connotation (as in place where big ships dock).

A good name for a Startown district would be helpful as well. =
Startown = Zvezdagrad = Z-vez-da-grad = Literal tranlsation of startown.
Nice sound to it.

Mazko = Mahz-koh = A name for a town that sounds Ukrainian.

Svetaburg = Sve-tah-boorg = A name for a town that has Germanic influence
(The -berg ending) and is a combination of the name "Svetlana" and the
German suffix "-berg."

I hope that works for you!

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 8:24 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Russian translations.

OK, my usual sources appeared to have run off to defend the nation, so I
need some help.

I need the closest Russian translations for the following words:

Committee

Tree Vodka

Starport

A good name for a Startown district would be helpful as well.

If you can help me with these, please mail the translations to me at
gridlore@mindspring.com ASAP!

Thanks!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 11:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Sat May 11 10:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T Novel
In-Reply-To: <728qduouge88o819gosb5ii1p19db8srq5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020511170731.96837.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote:
> What I think might work _better_ would be to take
> regular novels set in the
> Traveller milieu, and bind a 'Traveller Lite' into
> the back, as a 'free
> bonus'...  

This was done with the T4 novel: "Gateway to the
Stars" (?)  It was the first (and only?) time I've
seen Traveller at Barnes & Noble.




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 11:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat May 11 10:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A report on Grote by L.E. Whipsnade, postage due
Message-ID: <3CDD583C.F12A0038@mindspring.com>

In 1099 Larson E. Whipsnade was on Grote filming the blockbuster "Road
to Zhodane". As always he was dogged by debt. He took on the task of a
backup report of the system for the Glisten office of the IISS. These
notes are the result.
The IISS was not happy at entering data from bar napkins, greasy bibs
and assorted scraps of paper. Or the bill for transporting it via
special courier.
Further analysis of the materials yielded no information. The lab report
stating that "He shipped the report wrapped around bricks" was returned
for further analysis.

   Name of main settlement

     Newport or just Grote.  It's on the out most moon of the large gas
giant, Godzilla.  That gas giant is predominantly green with a large red
spot.  The moon, known as Grote also, has a B6/Scouts orbit number of
75.  This means that Grote's and Godzilla's jump exclusion zones are
almost concurrent, once you clear one, you've cleared the other.

    Any starport facilities peculiar to Grote (Bars, etc...)

     There's a JTAS hotel and several guild/labor union facilities.  The
Old Town has just about anything anyone may want or need in the way of
entertainment.  One bar frequented by Travellers is Sentas, it's run by
a very bad tempered and imposing (large) women of indeterminent age.

     NPC's they might meet.

     LEW, of course.  Free traders, scouts, every rouge, remittance man,
wastrel, scoundrel, and bad apple in the Marches.  They inhabit the Old
Town, an area with TLL 0 or GCR 0.  The New Town is much more quiet,
asides
from being well patrolled.

    Local customs (Especially the ones that jump out and bite the PC's)

     Contract employees (most of Grote's actual population) are usually
marked with tattoos, either on the cheek or hands.  These folks hire on
with clans or corporations for a set number of years.
     Clan members (all of Grote's official population) live in isolated
communes when on Grote or in the system.  Children are normally raised
in a group "crche" situation.
     Wanderlust.  Most clans make their living by operating free traders
or the 300 dT Grote Clan trader (a jumbo 2 version of the Beowulf.)
Some of these vessels may not have ever seen Grote even though they are
registered there.  These clan vessels serve along carefully planned and
investigated trade loops that service dozens of smaller worlds.  A Grote
trader showing
up twice a year may be the only "scheduled" trader some worlds see.
Clan members may have been anywhere between the Far Frontiers, Vland,
and the Trans-Rift jump 5 route.
     Some of the major clans sponsor a "Black Ship" every so often (~1
year to Deneb, Trojan Reach, Foreven.  ~3 years to farther locations,
i.e. Islands, Far Frontiers, Corridor, etc.) that ferry out frozen crew
replacements and pricey cargo items and return with the same.  These
"Black Ships" are every ECMs dream, but none have been successfully
attacked.  Yet.

   Local laws (See above)

     In the Old Town, everything goes.  The "residents" of Old Town are
somewhat self policing however, a murder spree WILL bring down the
entire populace of Old Town on your head.
     New Town is as sober and staid a place as you can imagine. The clan
compounds and communes are not open to outsiders, only very carefully
vetted, long term employees.

     Attitude of the populace.

     Generally speaking, they don't like the Sword Worlds at all (see
history), they're suspicious of the Addakkumak, and they don't like the
Imperium, but being a member keeps the Swords at bay.
     That said, they're not xenophobic.  After all they earn their bread
by trading with a host of cultures and societies.  They may not like
humaniti, but they can and do like humans.

     Expected cargos and passengers.

     Anything and everything.  You can count on minerals, ores, finished
compounds as Grote produces these.  Mfg. goods are the usual range of
free trader and belter items.  Speculative cargos range the gamut from
District 268, the Darrians, the Swords, the Imperium, and beyond.  You
never know just what a long haul free trader or Black Ship may have
brought back.

      ECM's (A charter passenger is quite unhappy with the Capt., who
wants to lead the life of a pirate)

     You captain is in quite a bit of trouble.  ECM's are just about the
ONLY types not accepted on Grote.  The system depends on trade.  He
won't have a few Imperial patrol cruisers hunting him, he'll have dozens
of
freelancers doing it instead.  The Addakkumak also fund a starmerc
division as part of their corporation.  You never know just how many of
the 600dT Addakkumak "Outrim" patrollers are in system...

   Any maps if you have the capability of sending such.

     Newport can be imagined very simply.  Draw a circle on the left
side of your paper, that's the starport and XT line.
     Draw a line towards the right side of the paper, that's Corridor
One (CorOne) the habitat's main drag.  Most business offices are located
here, chandlers, agents, shippers, brokers, merchants, and whatnot.
     Draw another circle at the right end of your line, that's the
Commons, a circular terrarium 3 km across with a small lake and zoo.
They are shops, bar, restaurants, and hotels along it's rim, JTAS is
located here.  The
Addakkumak own it, their habitat is connected to it on the right.  They
let people use it, hence the name "Commons", but they also patrol it.
It has a law level consistent with New Town.
    Above the line, draw a squiggly blob, that's Old Town.  Below the
line, draw a neat rectangle, that's New Town.
     Most clan compounds/communes/creches are either elsewhere on Grote
or in the system.  A few are connected to New Town.  Almost all clans
maintain a combination business office/hostel in New Town or along
CorOne.

      Any other info to bite the PC's.

     Grote was settled in the early 300's by person(s) unknown. It was
always a bolt hole, on the Main, but not on the main traffic route.
Nothing in system to peek the interest of any polity. It's always been a
anarchistic place, ruled more by families, clans, and businesses than
any system wide form of governance. Refugees and reprobates gave it a
pretty steady growth rate for 400 years.  System population by 750 was
~5 million, mostly belters, free trader crews, etc.
    When the Trilateralists fell in the Swords, a powerful refugee
family called the Addakkumak came to Grote. This was old hat for them,
the had originally fled the new Imperium from a pocket empire in Ilelish
to the Swords. They were rich and talented.  They immediately began to
work, the class "A" starport was their effort. They also brought in lots
of skilled workers and absorbed many lesser clans and businesses. By
~750, they were the de facto rulers of Grote and the remaining clans
resented it badly. Addakkumak holdings were run as a business with
employee profit sharing.
     The Addakkumak also dabbled in Sword politics, hoping someday to
lead a return of the Trilateralists. When their influence caused a
schism of the Sword Confederation government, they earned quite a few
enemies. In 764, the Sacnoth fragment of the SWC invaded Grote hoping to
occupy the system and use it's industries and resources as a commerce
raider "factory" for the upcoming 3rd FW. The occupation was botched
however.  It took two tries to invade Grote proper and both belts were
never fully under Sacnoth's control.
    Most of Grote's population bugged out during the attacks and
subsequent occupation. The Addakkumak who fled used their money and
influence to snatch the entire populations of belt habitats out from
under the Sacnoth's nose and resettle them elsewhere. The Addakkumak,
most to their chagrin, also negotiated Grote's membership in the
Imperium as a way to drive the Swords out.
     After the 3rd FW, Grote continued to lose population.  Some people
didn't want to be a part of the Imperium, others didn't want the
Imperium to know where they were.  Business was depressed, the
Addakkumak had little capital left for rebuilding.  The system has sort
of limped along ever since.
     One of the terms in Grote's membership petition dealt with how the
system's population would be assessed.  The Addakkumak successfully
limited the pop census to clan members only.  Thus Grote has an official
pop of ~ 40K, but nearly 100K actually live there.  This has kept the
nobility of the Glisten subsector from awarding a barony based on Grote.

The Imperial Port Warden, the person responsible for the legal niceties
at the port, hold a rank appointment of baron, but their are no Imperial
fiefs in the system.
     The Addakkumak employ most of the system's population, either
directly, via their holdings, or indirectly, via their suppliers.

     System info - 4 GGs, 2 PBs.
     Orbits
     0 - I-200000-0     ** The port ratings are unclear for Grote I
alpha and Grote I beta. Analysis indicates alcohol
     1 - I-310206-A
     2 - empty
     3 - H000304-A
     4 - LGG Godzilla
         1  -  X-R00000-0
         2  -  X-R00000-0
         3  -  X-300000-0
         5  - G-400113-A  Esso, orbital mass driver & refinery,
         8  - Y-100117-A  Addakkumak mining facility
        10 -  X-200000-0
        30 - X-100000-0
        35 - F-410213-A  Addakkumak resource facility, ground based mass
driver
        40 -  X-300000-0
        75 - A-400404-B  Grote, mass drivers (1 orbital, 1 ground based)

     5 - H-000304-A
     6 - SGG
        5  -  X-300000-0
        6  -  X-S00000-0
        7  -  X-100000-0
       10 -  X-200000-0
       11 -  X-S00000-0
       45 -  X-S00000-0
       50 - G-200217-A  Addakkumak resource operation
     7 - SGG
         1  -  X-R00000-0
         8  - G-5A0213-A  Addakkumak resource operation
         50 -  X-S00000-0
     8 - SGG
         1  -  X-R00000-0
         9  -  X-100000-0


     One interesting fact is that the Addakkumak use a series of mass
drivers within the Godzilla "system" and between both belts as a way to
ferry materials and cargo.  These shipments have been "poached" in the
past. The long amounts of time required for these shipments to travel
between points has given Grote a nice little futures exchange.  A line
of refined
ore bodies stretching out for 3 years between the inner belt and Grote,
let's investors play the futures market.

Abandoned habitats and installations - the system's pre-3FW population
was above 5 million.  There are abandoned habitats, mining operations,
small industrial centers, and other such facilities throughout both
belts and on any given gas giant moon.  Most have been picked over, some
may still have things worth salvaging.  Most clans don't especially like
folks poking
around in their old facilities.
     Newport is (mostly) a post-3FW construction.  The Port and Yard are
in their old locations, although they were completely rebuilt after the
war. The old habitat is a wrecked shell ~15 km south of the current
habitat.  Not suprisingly, Old Town is the oldest part of the new
habitat.  It squats in what had been a pre-3FW warehouse cavern.

The starport - The Imperium's SPA manages the starport, ala GT:FT.  Even
before GT, I had the Imperium managing the starport.  Grote, after all,
has cross border trade. However, the SPA doesn't actually employ any of
the locals.  There are
SPA personnel assigned to the Grote port, but almost all the work done
there is done by local contractors, from maintenance to traffic control
to floor mopping.  Most of the firms are either Addakkumak owned or
Addakkumak subsidiaries.  The contracts are put up for bid, but only the
Addakkumak firms have the know-how and expertise to win them.  That's
the story anyway.
     The Yards handle mostly yearly overhauls.  Grote's location and
attributes makes it a nice 2 week stop over point.  The Yard does
construct starships too, mostly the 300 dT Grote Clan Trader or yachts.
The few "Black Ships" mentioned earlier; huge modular dispersed
structures sporting j4 drives, were built on Grote also.
     The workers and officials at the Yard and Port are (nearly)
incorruptible.  No one gets favors, everything is done fairly and
according to when you asked for it to be done.  No palm greasing will
get you loaded faster then your place in the queue, in fact it might get
you put to the back of the list.  This is a hold over from the pre-3FW
days when the local clans didn't trust the Addakkumak.  The Addakkumak
carefully cultivated an atmosphere of "no favoritism" to keep the clans
from
abandoning the starport and building their own.
    Berthing is mostly handled by assigning marked areas on the ancient
caldera the Port uses as a landing field.  The Port and Yard sit under
this caldera, while the habitat is carved into the rim of the caldera.
There are underground pressurized berths available.  Most are within the
Yard.
    Warehousing is handled in somewhat the same fashion.  Some goods are
simply parked on the caldera in specified, and guarded, locations. Other
warehouses are located beneath the caldera within the XT line.
    Lodging and other services can be had at the Port within the XT
line. It's cheaper to stay outside the Port though.
    The UpPort is minimalist.  Ships can pick up cargo, get fuel, and
meet their other needs at the UpPort, but the capacity there is much
smaller than the DownPort.  Waits could be longer.  Some businesses and
clans operate orbital warehouses and transfer docks.  Shuttle service to
vessels in orbit is available, but once again the wait can be long.

Revolving airlocks - Huge, two story, revolving airlocks separate
certain areas of Newport from each other.  These airlocks resemble very
large revolving doors and have 6 chambers.  They are large enough for
the cars of the corridor trolley system to use.  Airlocks guards keep
pedestrian and vehicular traffic segregated within the airlock chambers.

     In the event of a pressure loss (which has never happened, yet...),
the locks stop in place.  There are occasional tests of this
capability.  The locks provide "step through" access between habitat
sections.  There isn't an intermediate chamber, once you pass through
the revolving locks, you're in the other section. There are 3 locks
connecting the starport with Corridor One and another 3 locks connecting
CorOne with the Commons.  New Town has 4 locks connecting it to CorOne.
Old Town has 2 locks.
    The starport's XT line is generally assumed to exist within the
locks. There's another "XT" line too.  The line between Old Town and the
rest of the habitat.  The two locks there are patrolled, along with a 25
meter semicircle into the Old Town side.  Past this boundary, the
constabulary doesn't "see" anything.  Doesn't matter whether it's a
mugging, knifing, or an expired air band, they see nothing and know
nothing.

Corridor cars - The Addakkumak subsidize a free trolley system that runs
along CorOne between the Port and Commons.  A passenger need only step
aboard a trolley in the Port, travel through a lock into CorOne, and
pass through another lock to the Commons to arrive at his hotel. The
trolleys hold 25 seated and a various number standing both inside and on
the outside runners. There are two stops within the Port, stops every
100 meters along CorOne, stops before entering both sides of every lock,
and several stops along the rim of the Commons.
     The main trolley system does not connect to either Old or New Town.
New Town has it's own system, but you still must walk through the locks
there.  Old Town has many independent jitneys, either battery or human
powered.

Air, water, and power - Air is free inside the XT line.  Outside that
line, Grote uses the colored wrist band system found on Aramis for all
visitors and quite a few inhabitants.  Some inhabitants, especially
those tattooed contact employees, are assumed to have paid their air tax
already. Wrist bands run you 1 CR. per day.  You can purchase one for
any amount of time you wish, up to 50 days.  The band can be turned in
for any unused time (a favorite money making technique of LEW who
normally finds his on drunks).  The color of the band lets you know how
much time you've got left on the band.  The redder it gets, the less
time you have.
     Folks with reddish bands will get a gentle reminder from the
walking constabulary patrols in most of the habitat.  Red bands will get
you escorted to the nearest kiosk for air band purchase.  Kiosks can be
found on either side of each revolving lock. If you don't have the price
of a band, you will be charged with vagrancy and put to work, either
until you have the
price of a low berth ticket or can prove you have found a paying job.
Naturally, this doesn't happen in Old Town, but if the denizens of that
pleasure spot wish to leave Old Town, they better find an air band.
     Water and power are an Addakkumak monopoly, although travellers
will find those fees in line with any other habitat they visit.  Most
usage fees will be part of your rent.  Collection of water and power
fees are the only form of government seen in Old Town.  Some meters must
"fed" by cred-cards or even special coins before working.  Other meters
are read by Addakkumak personnel ("assisted" by well armed constables)
and bills collected.  Most business establishments in Old Town can be
counted on to pay their utility bills.  Most flop house travellers find
themselves in will have the pay-as-you-go system in place.  Once again,
utility rates are reasonable, it's just that some folk in Old Town
aren't.  Cheaters are dealt with very
harshly, both by the Addakkumak and by other residents.

The Commons - the rim along the 3km wide Commons is a pleasant
promenade. Most of the better hotels, bars, and restaurants on Grote are
located here.  The JTAS facility is here also.  A large section directly
across from the locks belongs to the Addakkumak (actually, the Commons
is theirs too, they just let people use it.)  The entrance to their part
of the habitat is here.

Hiring - Most spacer guilds, unions, and so forth have offices on Grote,
as do all licensing bodies.  There are several hiring halls along CorOne
where crewmen can find a ship and a ship can find crewmen.
Certifications can be easily checked at the local offices of the
licensing groups, i.e. JTAS.

Working - The Port and Yards are Grote's biggest employer.  Most other
industries and services are geared to supporting them or the ships they
attract.  Mining and manufacturing are done on Grote proper and in the
two belts.  Quite a bit of mining on Grote is done from within the
habitat by the means of telepresence.  There are some remote facilities
that need to be
physically staffed by sophonts.  They usually work on a rotation basis.

The mass drivers - There are mass drivers orbiting each inhabited moon
of Godzilla as well in both belts.  Grote has a mass driver 10 km north
of the habitat for the delivery of ore.
     Godzilla's innermost inhabited moon is known locally as Esso.  It's
mass driver specializes in flinging skimmers through Godzilla's upper
atmosphere.  Esso then refines the contents into far more many products
than just fuel.  Vessels can refuel at Esso if they choose, but the
price for fuel there is the same as on Grote.  The Addakkumak operate a
few large tankers to shuttle fuel from Esso to any location in the
system that requires it.
     Frontier refueling at any of Grote's 4 gas giants is allowed.
Grote System TrafCon would like notice of any refueling operations
though.


     There are "normally" 1 or 2 Outrims in system at any given time.
Most of this class are elsewhere working.  Prior to the "Blackship"
departures or arrivals, there will be more, perhaps upward of 4.  Of
course, those are the ones you see...
     There is a 6 unit wing of "Dragon" class SDBs operating out of the
port also.  They are subsidized by the Imperium for customs work.  They
mainly operate around Godzilla, although they have been known to check
the out the belts and gas giants too.  They're the classic CT 400 dT
design.
    The Glisten subsector navy likes to put in an occasional appearance
also, usually 400 dT patrol cruisers.  Grote is/was a smugglers haven
and the Imperium tries to keep an eye on things.  For years there have
been rumors about IISS Donosev's lurking on the system's edges.  Both
the IN and the subsector navies like to use Grote for exercises
occasionally.  The
system is mostly empty and it's close to the Swords.

     Port defenses are limited.  The Imperial Port warden has a marine
platoon at her disposal.  There is also a 50 dT missile bay (TL15) and
three, triple laser turrets (TL15) normally grouped into one battery.
These are manned by the marines with contractor help, i.e. the grunt is
the battery chief, the others help out.
     The Addakkumak run what passes for a police force.  An Addakkumak
clan member is always the security chief, all the other positions (the
people who really do the work) are long term contract employees, some of
which have been on Grote for decades but haven't, for various reasons,
joined a clan.  This police force is armed as light infantry with a very
heavily armed
(combat armor) SWAT team backup.
    Most other clans have their own security forces and nearly everyone
in Newport is armed in some manner.
     Defenses your PCs should NEVER know about are the meson gun hidden
under the port and the mass drivers.
     The meson gun's existence is known to only the Port Warden, her
closest staff, and the upper reaches of the Addakkumak hierarchy (the
Archon).  The Imperium built it soon after the 3FW.  It is manned by
personnel rotated in on 6 month shifts from outside the system.  The
SDBs usually bring in each new shift during one of the outer system
patrols.  The gun is completely
self-contained and is powered by a geothermal core tap.  It has never
fired in anger, the initial ranging and subsequent ranging shots were
all directed at Godzilla.
     During the Sacnothi invasion prior to the 3FW, the Addakkumak broke
up the first attempt to land on Grote with a mass driver. The Sacnothi
thought they had driven off any defending vessels and suppressed the
ground defenses enough, so the battle cruiser "Eomer" was sent in to
drop her compliment of marines.  At approximately 75K km, the mass
driver in orbit fired a fascine of bonded superdense "darts" which tore
"Eomer" apart.  The assault fell apart in confusion and the Sacnothi
withdrew fearing they were facing a meson gun.  Later review of sensor
logs pointed to the mass driver.  When the Second Assault, 4 months
later, the mass driver was destroyed by long range missile fire.
     There are still rumors that every mass driver around Godzilla can
be used as a weapon.


     The Addakkumak facilities in the outer system aren't normally open
to the public.  Emergencies can land there, but casual visitors aren't
welcome. There could be any number of abandoned habitats and facilities
in and on these moons.  Some haven't been visited since the evacuations
after the Sacnothi invasion, some have been stripped clean by
scavengers, and some may
still be used on a temporary basis by folks who don't want anyone to
know they are there.
     Other than the two Addakkumak operations noted, all other mining
and resource operations take place in the two belts.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
History repeats itself; that's one of the things that's wrong with
history.
                               -Clarence Darrow



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 12:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May 11 11:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: PsiWorld
Message-ID: <4c.b4f9ab2.2a0eb80b@aol.com>

Mark Urbin writes:

>>Anyone remember Psi World RPG?  It allowed a GM to run a campaign
>>from either side of  the  psionic  issue  ...  psi-talenteds  are
>>criminal Vs psi-talenteds are a persecuted group.  And  IIRC  the
>>Keith brothers did a couple of adventures for it.  The background
>>could be adapted to the Traveller  universe  during  the  Psionic
>>Supressions quite easily .
>
>Way out of print though...Has any company picked it up?

Why would they? FGU is still theoretically in business.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 12:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat May 11 11:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Annual Maintenance
References: <F3AxCtuTRjtyntahJGy00011458@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CDD62E3.830D434A@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>      The current fleet logistics/exploration cruiser design thread got the
> weary Whipsnadian perking again.  And we all know just how dangerous THAT
> can be...
>      This may seem like a silly question but; just what the heck is annual
> maintenance all about anyway?  What actually occurs at the yard?  What is
> done to the vessel in question?

<snip>
Mainly checks on systems. They'll check the lining of the fusion chambers in
your plants and drive. Continuity of the jump grid. Drive mountings. Diagnostics
on computers, Life support, weapons. purifiers, pumps, landing gear checks.
Thorough cleaning of machinery, filter change, replace burnt out indicators,
check and add fluids, etc.....  Then an unscrupulous or incompetent yard might
make unnecessary repairs.

Ratings IMTU are good for 4 years. You can get recert at any class A and some
class B/C ports in the Imperium.

IMTU parts are available +2/-3 TL's (limit is high imperial TTL F). A class A
port is minimum TL 9. Oddly enough, that's the minimum to build a jump drive. So
if you pull into that TL 9 port in you TL B freighter you're OK to get any type
of maintenance. Parts may have to be shipped in for a major repair( J drive,
Power plant replacement) but any part that could reasonably be expected to go
bad is stocked.  Unless "A main feed pump for a LSP 18G100 plant? We just
installed the last one in that merchie lifting off there. It's OK, he's got the
order for 6 more and you're first in line. Lets see, its 8 weeks to Grote on his
route, 'less he runs into someone gonna get there quicker. Then the Subsidized
freighter is....no, it'll already be coming here. You'll have to wait a year
less you wanta try an hire a ship. Ya know them things have been burning up
something fierce. Might be a design flaw. Want a chew? "

Pull into that same port in your brandy new TL F yacht and everyone will come
and admire, but they can't help. "Well, I could replace it with a locally
produced drive. Take about 2 months. It'll get you jump one."
Show up at a TL D port in you TL 9 Star Cruiser. "We could modernize her, might
be cheaper to scrap her and get a frigate."

You can buy the parts for annual maintenance (No repairs needed) and be a shade
tree starship engineer. As the port gets worse it takes longer. 16 weeks at a
class X. that's how I rationalize the exploration ships. Just carry all that
stuff in your cargo bay. I stole walt smiths work and adapted it to MMTU. Now I
have to design combat support vessels as most of my military designs have less
than 2 months of stores.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
History repeats itself; that's one of the things that's wrong with
history.
                               -Clarence Darrow



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 12:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Sat May 11 11:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT outbursts
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020511145206.02508e00@pop.wizard.net>

Please forgive my recent outburst on civil rights.  It isn't on topic to 
Traveller.  I've been trying to work hard on staying on topic, and 
shouldn't have done that, even if I do care passionately about civil rights 
issues.

ObTrav:  Um.  Ain't got one.  That's the whole problem, I guess.  :->

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 12:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (shadowcat)
Date: Sat May 11 11:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: PsiWorld
In-Reply-To: <4c.b4f9ab2.2a0eb80b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CDD22BD.13373.DA2C39@localhost>

yes its out of print, but I know the Lady who wrote it, and can get ahold of her easily
LadyCheron lives with a group of traveller players now


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 14:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat May 11 13:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T Novel and Comics Too!
References: <20020511170731.96837.qmail@web20809.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CDD788B.8050000@telocity.com>

Scott Ayres wrote:

> --- Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote:
> 
>>What I think might work _better_ would be to take
>>regular novels set in the
>>Traveller milieu, and bind a 'Traveller Lite' into
>>the back, as a 'free
>>bonus'...  
>>

> This was done with the T4 novel: "Gateway to the
> Stars" (?)  It was the first (and only?) time I've
> seen Traveller at Barnes & Noble.


As I said, I'm not really into comic books/graphic novel 
(whatever <g>), but if my brother-in-law is any indication there 
is a 'living market' for them. Several years ago he mentioned 
(went on an one, actually) how much he liked reading Spiderman 
when he was growing up, so (almost as a gag) I bought him a 
year's subscription to that comic book for his birthday. Now he 
calls a couple of months before his birthday telling me how much 
he enjoys those Spiderman's I give him...hint, hint.  My sister 
is more direct, she just flat out tells me to renew his 
subscription because if I don't he'll be moping around the house 
for weeks. <g>

About "Gateway...", yes there was a lite version of Traveller in 
the back, unfortunately it was aerogel lite. I suspect Marc 
intended to flesh the rules out over several books like you 
suggest, but there never was a followup book to "Gateway." I 
don't think that was a slight to Traveller, it just wasn't a very 
good book.

I do like the idea of a novel series, but I think that would be 
harder to pull off than either a semi-weekly online strip (like 
Freefall) or a series of printed graphic novellas. I know we have 
novelists, screenplay writers, artists, editors and publishers on 
this list.  Would any of you care to comment?

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 14:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May 11 13:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: PsiWorld
Message-ID: <20020511.160730.-154897.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

> >>Anyone remember Psi World RPG?  It allowed a GM to run a campaign
> >>from either side of  the  psionic  issue  ...  psi-talenteds  are
> >>criminal Vs psi-talenteds are a persecuted group.  And  IIRC  the
> >>Keith brothers did a couple of adventures for it.  The background
> >>could be adapted to the Traveller  universe  during  the  Psionic
> >>Supressions quite easily .
> >
> >Way out of print though...Has any company picked it up?
> 
> Why would they? FGU is still theoretically in business.

And they'll still sell you a copy...

http://www.fantasygamesunlimited.com/


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 14:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May 11 13:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT outbursts
Message-ID: <20020511.132347.-116963.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Sat, 11 May 2002 14:53:44 -0400 laning <laning@wizard.net> writes:
>  ObTrav:  Um.  Ain't got one.  That's the whole problem, I guess.   :->
> 
> --Laning

<Deep inside a secret Imperium laboratory sits the frightened sophont
Laning. Strapped in a chair, electrodes attached to his brain.>

Nurse: I'm sorry doctor, there's just no activity in that portion of his
brain.

Doc: Well, since there's no other choice, we'll just have to do a
lobotomy.

Scientist: NO, wait! I have an option I'd like to try.

Doc: Option? What option sir?

Scientist: Lets put him in the holovid chamber, load up a "new
personality transfer" vid and reprogram him.

Doc: But sir, that routine is dangerous, and sometimes even fatal.

Scientist: Yes, I know, but we don't have any other choice, he's no good
to us if he can't think creatively.

Doc: Very well sir, but which personality do you want to give him?

Scientist: Nurse, what personalities do we have on hand.

Nurse: Well sir, we have quite a few background personalities to choose
from including: Army, Barbarian, Belter, Bureaucrat, Diplomat, Flyer,
Hunter, Law Enforcer, Marines, Merchants, Navy, Noble, Pirate, Rogue,
Scientist, Scouts

Scientist: Well, that's an impressive assortment. Lets see now . . .
                  Nurse, just pick one, I don't care which.

<Nurse quietly picks a program, loads it, and the transfer begins>


Laning, pick a background, roleplay it on the TML, you'll be sure to have
creative juices flowing if you do.

Turokan :~)


..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May 11 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #515 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <728qduouge88o819gosb5ii1p19db8srq5@4ax.com>
References: <20020511072905.310EB27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CDD3A43.29402.962795@localhost>

On 11 May 2002, at 10:00, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> On Sat, 11 May 2002 00:28:03 -0700, "Eris Reddoch"
> <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:

> 
> How about 'Drawn Dramas'?
> 
> >         would have a much bigger market than just the
> >         Trav-grognards.
> >It would probably be a great way to draw in more younger players. It
> >would be a good way to teach Traveller to folks that might like to
> >play, but don't have "that Traveller feeling" yet.
> 
> How much overlap is there between 'gamers' and 'comic readers'?  Most
> of the discussion I hear about comics is collector oriented; they
> don't buy the stuff to read, but simply to have as a collection item. 
> Or at least so it seems.  Is there a 'living' comic market?  If there
> is, then this idea might just work as intended - and I think it would
> be a good one under those circumstances.

Where I have been there is a large cross over between the two so 
that a Graphic novel could fly real well.  Though another idea might 
be to do a computer short clip and run it on someone's website.  
Sort of like the Army of One campaign or BMW just using 
computer graphics.  

> What I think might work _better_ would be to take regular novels set
> in the Traveller milieu, and bind a 'Traveller Lite' into the back, as
> a 'free bonus'.  A series of novels, each standing alone, but with a
> common thread (perhaps the same party as protagonists), might very
> well pull in a bunch of people.  Note: If possible, _don't_ limit the
> genre of the novels to SF. SF and Fantasy are still considered
> 'tainted' to some extent.  Get (some of) them classified next to Tom
> Clancy adventures, and we might have something...

Jeff I dont know if SF/Fantasy is tainted but I like the idea there 
too, making lite available in the back of books is good.

 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 14:34:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May 11 13:34:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Avenging Aphid
In-Reply-To: <3CDDA835.6713.84F9F70@localhost>
References: <3CDC6604.22EB607E@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3CDD3A43.23024.9627A9@localhost>

Andrew

I took a look at this since all my Traveller is in storage I thought 
cool I could use this but at last I am running win98 is there any 
way to get this version or something I can use?

On 11 May 2002, at 23:24, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> 
> http://www.downport.com/amv/software/hgs.html
> 
> No it doesn't use excel, its stand alone.
> 
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
>   Scientific terms explained #1
>   "A long established fact"
>   = "I forgot to look up the reference"
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 14:35:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May 11 13:35:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Crime in Space
Message-ID: <3CDD3A43.20354.9627B3@localhost>

This is an interesting question and reminds me of Eris pbem game 
and murder on ship.  We were on a large space liner so I am 
writing from this point of view.

The easiest way to deal with this is the purser and security crew.  
The main purpose of on board security is not to protect the ship 
from those pesky on again off again pirates but to work as the 
police force.  This includes investigating crime, arresting and 
detaining the criminal in question.  

I also think that since the Imperium is suppose to control the 
space between systems then the security would be working under 
Imperial Jurisdiction and law.  Once arrested the person would be 
held until the ship reached an Imperial base/port then turned over.

As far as punishment and law goes I would treated it like crimes on 
USA Federal property, ie the punishment is harsher since it 
occurred in Imperial control space.  

This would also included people fleeing from one system to another 
they would fall into Imperial jurisdiction and could be charged under 
Imperial law or tried on the system if the Imperium so choices.

Obvs Real Life

I wonder if shipboard security and imperial agents all have the mop 
top hair cuts and bush mustachios like in the Besty Boys 
Sabotage video.  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 14:35:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May 11 13:35:52 2002
Subject: [TML] A report on Grote by L.E. Whipsnade, postage due
In-Reply-To: <3CDD583C.F12A0038@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CDD3A43.29936.9627BD@localhost>

Alan this really cool I liked the tone of it I can just see the people 
trying to paste all this together and the map discription is funny.  

You used unconvential means to destroy an invading fleet. In my 
Landgrab of Forine I used a controlled Volcantic erruption to wipe 
out an Imperial Marine bridge head.  

My question is what other unconvential means are there at the 
disposel of small but high tech communities to take on invading 
forces.  

Oh Alen can we get an NPC write up of Mr. Whipsnade  please?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 14:36:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May 11 13:36:27 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player and Comic or Eris the Mind reader
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKELMDNAA.tml@jtas.org>
References: <20020511060447.1D97727A53@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CDD3A43.13698.962789@localhost>

Colin
Colin offeres

> Just keep your kilt on. My BESM Traveller book will be done within the
> week.
> 
> Issue #1: "Hold on Beowulf, Yamamoto is on the way!" [due emid-May]
> 
> Issue #2: "Kimba the Aslan Mercenary" [due June 14th]
> 
Wow I did not know you were working on these.  I am willing to 
spend a few bucks espically if I can get it autographed.  

All joking aside I think Traveller could use a good dose of BESM 
just to liven it up a bit.  I would not do the MegaMan stuff but some 
Cowboy Bebob noir or Gundum honor and war setting.   I dont 
know if they count as BESM but they are cool and have style.  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 14:37:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sat May 11 13:37:11 2002
Subject: [TML] All Psi party
In-Reply-To: <20020511090954.A17124@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020510082332.A12385@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020510113548.22585.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <20020511090954.A17124@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <kguqdu416tts6fgtslb29qj50b2ima1msn@4ax.com>

On Sat, 11 May 2002 09:09:54 +1000, Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

>Daniel Tackett wrote:
>> Two of these These guys are Zhodani in disguise making a hasty trip
>> through the Imperium down to an obscure place in the Reavers Deep
>[...]
>> THis campaign occurs about year 100.
>
>OK, so this is way before the Psionic Suppressions, and set during the
>Pacification Campaigns.  So I guess the Imperium isn't as rabidly
>anti-psionic in your game as it becomes seven hundred years later.
>
>I would guess that the Zhodani are not nearly as well known as they
>become later, too.  The Spinward Marches are only just starting to be
>colonised, and this is hundreds of years before the First Frontier
>War.
>
><SNIP>
Hmm...  I can see an interesting way of handling things here.  At that
time, the Imperium was basically agnostic on the topic of Psi's, with
some hit or miss development and research on the matter.  While the
Zho's had instituted it as one of the fundamental pillars of their
culture.

Now, why are the player characters travelling this great distance into
a little-known polity in search of an archive of that polity's prior
research?  What if this archive would give the Imperium a significant
start in developing its own psionic population and the Zho's would
just as soon maintain a monopoly on this knowledge and ability?
Psionics would represent a strategic advantage for the Zhodani in any
future encounters with the Imperium.  And, if they can manage to
induce the Imperium to actively avoid psionic development, it would
strengthen this advantage even further.

While keeping relatively undercover, they have to avoid the randomly
distributed and loyal untrained psionic citizens of the various worlds
they may visit.  The Zhodani experience, skills and training will
certainly stand then in good stead against the little trained psionic
citizenry and well-trained but ungifted Imperial investigators.

And, regarding investigators, if you want to place some motivation
behind the player characters, what if a particular planetary noble, in
some way injured by the player characters, takes it upon himself to
pursue them.  Sometimes calling in favors, other times spending
ridiculous sums to have his way, he keeps following them from planet
to planet, always only a single step behind them.  Though not
initially certain of their nature, as time goes by and he learns more
about them, he begins to view them as a real threat Imperial safety
and uses this as justification to call upon other Imperial forces in
the pursuit.  In some ways, this could turn into a Traveller version
of The Fugitive, and would certainly be fodder for many plots.

What about the player characters becoming interested in setting the
foundations for what would become the Psionic Suppressions?  Those
Suppressions, though undoubtedly inconvenient for existing Zhodani
agents-in-place, also removed a significant asset from the Imperium in
regard to any potential future conflicts.

Now I may be attributing too much foresight on the part of the Zhodani
of that era.  I'll certainly admit that my knowledge of Traveller
canon is far from complete, and doubly so as regards the Zhodani.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 14:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May 11 13:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] All Psi party
In-Reply-To: <kguqdu416tts6fgtslb29qj50b2ima1msn@4ax.com>
References: <20020511090954.A17124@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3CDD3FC9.30211.ABBC4A@localhost>

JR Holmes gave an interesting  idea.  Early Zho planing.  Though I 
would see the whole scream developed over years of operations.  
They would send in "cultural Study" groups followed by wet ops to 
find any Imperial experiments/operations and try to sabotage them. 
 Slowly it would dawn on them that they have the advantage and 
they would start operations to keep it.

You could add kidnapping/converting operations of Imperial high 
power psi's, destroying labs, to your starring up unrest against 
psis.  


> Hmm...  I can see an interesting way of handling things here.  At that
> time, the Imperium was basically agnostic on the topic of Psi's, with
> some hit or miss development and research on the matter.  While the
> Zho's had instituted it as one of the fundamental pillars of their
> culture.
> 
> Now, why are the player characters travelling this great distance into
> a little-known polity in search of an archive of that polity's prior
> research?  What if this archive would give the Imperium a significant
> start in developing its own psionic population and the Zho's would
> just as soon maintain a monopoly on this knowledge and ability?
> Psionics would represent a strategic advantage for the Zhodani in any
> future encounters with the Imperium.  And, if they can manage to
> induce the Imperium to actively avoid psionic development, it would
> strengthen this advantage even further.
> 
> While keeping relatively undercover, they have to avoid the randomly
> distributed and loyal untrained psionic citizens of the various worlds
> they may visit.  The Zhodani experience, skills and training will
> certainly stand then in good stead against the little trained psionic
> citizenry and well-trained but ungifted Imperial investigators.
> 
> And, regarding investigators, if you want to place some motivation
> behind the player characters, what if a particular planetary noble, in
> some way injured by the player characters, takes it upon himself to
> pursue them.  Sometimes calling in favors, other times spending
> ridiculous sums to have his way, he keeps following them from planet
> to planet, always only a single step behind them.  Though not
> initially certain of their nature, as time goes by and he learns more
> about them, he begins to view them as a real threat Imperial safety
> and uses this as justification to call upon other Imperial forces in
> the pursuit.  In some ways, this could turn into a Traveller version
> of The Fugitive, and would certainly be fodder for many plots.
> 
> What about the player characters becoming interested in setting the
> foundations for what would become the Psionic Suppressions?  Those
> Suppressions, though undoubtedly inconvenient for existing Zhodani
> agents-in-place, also removed a significant asset from the Imperium in
> regard to any potential future conflicts.
> 
> Now I may be attributing too much foresight on the part of the Zhodani
> of that era.  I'll certainly admit that my knowledge of Traveller
> canon is far from complete, and doubly so as regards the Zhodani.
> 
> -- 
> JR Holmes
> jrholmes@wi.rr.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 15:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sat May 11 14:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Request
In-Reply-To: <3CDC5E71.1B38C92B@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CDC5E71.1B38C92B@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <6k2rdug1jkbn7r8rfaq9sccnqdglj5v4gi@4ax.com>

On Fri, 10 May 2002 18:57:37 -0500, Roseberry
<rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>3. Colonization ship
>
>	Size: up to 10000dt
>	minimum maneuver:2G
>	minimum jump:J3
>	required TL: CT TL12 : GT TL10
>	Gas giant fueling required
>	Other requirments: Must be able to put 100 colonists with
>	equipment, vehicles and housing on ANY planet. Designer will
>	have to take into account what will be required for exotic=20
>	atmospheres, climates, etc.

It seems to me that only 100 colonists is a bit too few for an
effective colony.  While suitable for an industrial station, I tend to
doubt that the 100 people could have sufficiently diverse skills to
get a colony established at the stated tech levels.  Maybe if one
looks at the 100 as a "pathfinder" colony, getting pretty rude basics
established while being maintained by external resources, with more
followers arriving within a year or two thereafter for the independent
colony.

OTOH, a group of 1000 people I could certainly see as more than
sufficient to start a colony.  More likely, some number of colonists
between 100 and 1000 is what would be the result.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 17:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May 11 16:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #516 - 19 msgs
Message-ID: <139.e1f5e2f.2a0efc8e@aol.com>

>Get (some
>of) them classified next to Tom Clancy adventures, and we might have
>something...

This is roughly analogous to saying: "Say, all you have to do is win $200 
million in the lottery." It's a little harder than it looks.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 17:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat May 11 16:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: PsiWorld
In-Reply-To: <4c.b4f9ab2.2a0eb80b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020511190818.02066800@192.168.0.1>

At 02:08 PM 5/11/2002 -0400, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>Mark Urbin writes:
> >>Anyone remember Psi World RPG?  It allowed a GM to run a campaign
> >>from either side of  the  psionic  issue  ...  psi-talenteds  are
> >>criminal Vs psi-talenteds are a persecuted group.  And  IIRC  the
> >>Keith brothers did a couple of adventures for it.  The background
> >>could be adapted to the Traveller  universe  during  the  Psionic
> >>Supressions quite easily .
> >Way out of print though...Has any company picked it up?
>Why would they? FGU is still theoretically in business.

Ahhh...so they are.  Thank you very much for the update.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Treeware" - Manuals and documentation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 20:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sat May 11 19:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A report on Grote by L.E. Whipsnade, postage due
In-Reply-To: <20020511175006.44169279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000201c1f95f$35310960$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 13:43:26 -0400
> From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>
> In 1099 Larson E. Whipsnade was on Grote filming the blockbuster "Road
> to Zhodane". As always he was dogged by debt. He took on the task of a
> backup report of the system for the Glisten office of the IISS. These
> notes are the result.
<<<<

Whirr, click......

Sound of post vanishing onto my hard drive

Andy

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi              Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)	  	
 United Arab Emirates           +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 11 21:36:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat May 11 20:36:23 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC: May Competition Entry
Message-ID: <3CDDE291.13992B76@mail.cswnet.com>

Kentucky Home class exploratory cruiser
Typical class ships: Frankfort, Louisville.
SC-G1326F3-051106-97802-1 Mcr 8955.210717 standard  9500dt
            2   2 214 1   Crew=201[includes 29 marines, 50
Scientists]             2   2 214 1    TL12
Fuel=3420 EP=570 Agility=2 Fuel Scoops and Purification Plant on board.
6dt fighters=10 50dt modular cutters=4 30dt cutter modules=8+4
w/cutters.
100 dt weapons bays=7 [4 paws, 2 repulsors, 1 fusion gun]
Machine shop=1 Electronics shop=1 Laboratories=25

Design Details:

Hull section
hull 9500dt Mcr950
hull configuration code1 needle Mcr190
ship silhouette: similar to Aslan expeditionary ship from Dark Nebula.

Engineering section
J-Drive-3 380dt Mcr1520
M-Drive-2 285dt Mcr199.5 ep-190 [agility=2]
P-Plant-6 1710dt Mcr5130
P-Plant Fuel 570dt
J-Drive Fuel 2850dt
Fuel Scoops Mcr9.5
Fuel Purification Plant 10.26dt Mcr.054717
Engineering crew: 1chief engineer, 1 officer, 5 petty officers, 17
ratings.

Command section
Bridge 190dt Mcr47.5
Mod 6 fib computer 14dt Mcr83 ep-5
Command crew: 1 captain, 1 executive officer, 2 pilots, 7 other
officers,
2 petty officers, 8 ratings.

Gunnery section
nuclear damper code1 50dt Mcr50 ep-10
meson screen code1 90dt Mcr80 ep-19
4-100dt weapons bays with code8 PAW 400dt Mcr144 ep-240
2-100dt weapons bays with code6 repulsors 200dt Mcr22 ep-20
1-100dt weapons bay with code7 fusion gun 100dt Mcr9 ep-20
2-10dt tripple beam laser turret batteries 20dt Mcr60 ep-60 
1-1dt tripple missile launcher 1dt Mcr2.25 ep-0
4-1dt tripple sandcaster launchers 4dt Mcr3 ep-0
Gunnery crew: 1 chief gunnery officer, 3 officers, 16 petty officers, 16
ratings. 

Flight section
4-50dt modular cutters [from adv 7 Broadsword] Mcr123
12-30dt cutter modules [4 passenger, 4 cargo, 4 pressurized shelter]
Mcr30
Note: 4 passenger modules are normally carried in cutters
10-6dt fighters [from adv 7 Broadsword] Mcr72.45
728dt hanger bay 728dt Mcr1.456
Flight Crew: 1 flight control officer, 14 pilots, 4 ratings [flight
crew],
1 Chief Petty Officer, 2 petty offciers, 11 ratings.

Ships Troops
1 officer, 28 troops.

Service section
1 machine shop 10dt Mcr2
1 electronics shop 6dt Mcr1
Service Crew: 19 ratings.

Science section
25 laboratories 175dt Mcr125
Science crew: 50 scientists.

total crew: 201
33 officers, 25 petty officers, 65 ratings, 28 troops, 50 scientists.
201-4dt staterooms 804dt Mcr100.5

Stores: 672dt [ship requires 56dt per month, 672dt for a year].
Cargo: 230.74dt

costs:
standard, no arch fees: Mcr 8955.210717
arch fees: Mcr89.552107
discount: Mcr 7164.168574

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 00:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sat May 11 23:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: my milieu wishlist
In-Reply-To: <000201c1f8dd$e5ea8f60$b100a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEMGEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Are you now, or have you ever been a member of a psionics institute?

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 00:23:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sat May 11 23:23:40 2002
Subject: Colony Size was RE: [TML] Request
In-Reply-To: <6k2rdug1jkbn7r8rfaq9sccnqdglj5v4gi@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEEMGEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

My TNE sub-light colony ship (Star Seeker class) has a displacement of
50,000 tons has 50 large staterooms, 350 small staterooms and 1,750 low
berths. Assuming double occupancy for every stateroom this equates to a
colony of 2,550 people. The crew rotating through the low berths. To support
them the ship has provision for 245,842.7 cubic meters of cargo space, or
approx 96.4 tons of cargo space per colonist. This would include vehicles
for the colony, chemical supplies, seeds, frozen embryos etc.

I think most people would tend to underestimate what a start-up colony would
require to survive if they were planted on their own. I also pictured the
ship as being readily dismantleable to provide additional colony resources.
I pictured it as only being able to land once.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of JR Holmes
Sent: Sunday, 12 May 2002 5:25 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Request


On Fri, 10 May 2002 18:57:37 -0500, Roseberry
<rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>3. Colonization ship
>
>	Size: up to 10000dt
>	minimum maneuver:2G
>	minimum jump:J3
>	required TL: CT TL12 : GT TL10
>	Gas giant fueling required
>	Other requirments: Must be able to put 100 colonists with
>	equipment, vehicles and housing on ANY planet. Designer will
>	have to take into account what will be required for exotic
>	atmospheres, climates, etc.

It seems to me that only 100 colonists is a bit too few for an
effective colony.  While suitable for an industrial station, I tend to
doubt that the 100 people could have sufficiently diverse skills to
get a colony established at the stated tech levels.  Maybe if one
looks at the 100 as a "pathfinder" colony, getting pretty rude basics
established while being maintained by external resources, with more
followers arriving within a year or two thereafter for the independent
colony.

OTOH, a group of 1000 people I could certainly see as more than
sufficient to start a colony.  More likely, some number of colonists
between 100 and 1000 is what would be the result.

--
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 00:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sat May 11 23:24:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: my milieu wishlist
In-Reply-To: <3CDDA835.9606.84F9F70@localhost>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEMGEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Definately the Interstellar Wars period. I find that the lower tech (Tl9
through TL12) is much more interesting. Picture the face on a Vilani
commander when they come across a hostile Terran TL11 cruiser with a spinal
meson gun.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 00:25:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sat May 11 23:25:00 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <007a01c1f852$03ad99c0$d1317b83@housing.res.kent.edu>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEMGEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Well my main Traveller setting, and the one most played is my Star Kingdom
of Swan. Some of this is on my website, but I am currently going through
this material expanding it greatly. It looks like though that I am getting
very close to exceeding my site size limit. This is basically set in an
alternative Solomani Rim, different history and world stats using TNE rules,
a group of small states, lots of unexplored and lightly explored territory.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Anthony Colosetti
Sent: Saturday, 11 May 2002 2:39 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)


<quote>

> What period/setting would folks most like to see a sourcebook on?

Would it be possible to make sourcebooks on certain subsectors, including a
set of timeline highlights, instead of a time period? I tend to use content
and ignore "milieu", Era, etc.

</quote>

I like the idea of the sector based sourcebook.  A list of changes in
government and tech levels on certain significant planets and maps showing
boundary changes through the years (much like the Spinward Marches maps from
SMC).

To add on to this, I'd also like to suggest something some (many?) of you
will take to be blasphemy...  How about alternate universes...  I don't mean
alternate timelines, I mean full scale settings.  Personally I have two
separate Traveller games.  One set in the very familiar Imperium and another
set in a universe that was highly inspired by The Mote in God's Eye.

To me Traveller is both a setting and a system.  Not mechanics ( I use a
homebrew system with it's roots in D6 for my mechanics) but it is things
like Vacc Suit, Air/Raft, four year terms, 100dton Scout ships...that's what
defines Traveller for me.

Anthony Colosetti

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 04:32:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun May 12 03:32:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: my milieu wishlist
Message-ID: <memo.329093@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEMGEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
>Are you now, or have you ever been a member of a psionics institute?

Having to ASK this says more about you than it does about me, dear heart 
:-)

And no, I'm not much of a joiner of groups...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 07:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun May 12 06:09:03 2002
Subject: I wish I could take credit: Was[TML] A report on Grote by L.E.
 Whipsnade, postage due
References: <3CDD3A43.29936.9627BD@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CDE6839.D738C3FB@mindspring.com>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:

> Alan this really cool I liked the tone of it I can just see the people
> trying to paste all this together and the map discription is funny.
>
> You used unconvential means to destroy an invading fleet. In my
> Landgrab of Forine I used a controlled Volcantic erruption to wipe
> out an Imperial Marine bridge head.
>
> My question is what other unconvential means are there at the
> disposel of small but high tech communities to take on invading
> forces.

Actually I just edited Mr. Whipsnades messages. I saw him down for a
landgrab of Grote which wasn't at spinwardmarches.com. So I asked a few
questions and he graciously filled me in. I have a party with a long term
charter and am able to force them to go where I want. Below is the LEW
write up posted by Mr. Whipsnade previously. I've included his partner in
crime, Ramen, previously posted by Mr. Fred Ramen.

Without further ado, Larsen E. Whipsnade  (100 pts)

GURPS Character:  ST - 9  DX - 12  IQ - 12  HT - 10  (cost +30 pts)
Height: 5' 10"
Weight: 200 lbs. (see disadvantages below)
Age: 40-ish
Appearance: Ugly (see disadvantages below)
Reputation: -2, recognized easily and known to most travellers in the
Spinward Marches (see disadvantages below)

Advantages:  Alcohol Tolerance (+5 pts)
             Alertness +3 (+15 pts)
             Empathy  (+15 pts)
             Mathematical Ability (+10 pts)
             Unfazeable (+15 pts)

             Total: +60 pts

Disadvantages:  Lame  (-15 pts)
                Laziness (-10 pts)
                Overweight (-5 pts)
                Reputation, slightly bad -2, (-10 pts)
                Ugly (-10 pts)

                Total:  -50 pts

Quirks:         Archaic dress, i.e. straw boater, swallow tail coat
                Uses overly formal language
                Projects an avuncular or manorial air
                Squeamish about prosthetics
                Bashful around women

                Total:  -5 pts

Points available for skills:  65

Non-professional skills:  Area Knowledge 15 (+6 pts)
                          Fast Talk 14 (+6 pts)
                          Savoir-Faire 15 (+6 pts)
                          Scrounging 14 (+4 pts)
                          Sleight of hand 14 (+4pts)

                          Total: 26 pts

Professional skills: Brawling 14 (+4 pts)
                     Handgun, automatic 14 (+4 pts)
                     Knife 14 (+4 pts)

                     Total: 12 pts

     That should leave 27 points for skills such as engineering,
mechanics,
electronics, gravitics, computer operations, vacc suit, and robot
operations.
  Larsen's skills in any of these areas should not be spectacular, just
workman-like.  (Please note, this is my first attempt a creating a GURPS
character so I have most likely broken, ignored, forgotten, or overlooked
SOME rule somewhere.)


CT Character  677996, age 40, 2 terms IN-engineering, 4 terms other

     Elec-2, Eng-2, Liaison-2, Mech-2, Air/raft-1, Brawl-1, Blade-1,
Carous-1, Comp-1, Gravitics-1, JoT-1, Vacc suit-1


Backstory - Known by many (who are usually not happy about that fact)
along
the Spinward Main, Larsen E. Whipsnade is usually reticent about his
formative years.  It can be surmised that he was born in the Imperium and
received a standard education for his place and time.  Some indications
point to an orphanage on Lanth, as that is where he enlisted in the IN.
Oddly enough, that institution's records were lost in a bizarre
electrolysis
accident some years ago.
     Whipsnade's years in the IN passed mostly without incident.  He
tested
well enough to posted to the subsector engineering school, graduated in
the
middle of his class, and served without either distinction or disgrace for

most of his first enlistment.  The naval build-up prior to the 5th
Frontier
War and the incidents revolving around a "Jump Time" betting pool aboard
the
INS "Snead Hearn" (DE-257634) changed all that however.
     As a personal favor to that ship's suddenly wealthy XO, the subsector

BuPers chief "loaned" Whipsnade to a mixed IN-IISS courier squadron.  The
fact that during wartime couriers, and their crews, have the normal life
expectancy of a lone Aslan amongst the K'Kree may have had something to do

with this.
     As part of the 201st Combined Courier Group, Whipsnade served aboard
militarized versions of the IISS' jump 6 "Khadumir" class of vessels.  It
was
in this manner he met and befriended a young IISS pilot named Fred Ramen.
     The somewhat looser nature of IISS operations allowed Whipsnade to
begin to show his true colors.  The vessels he and Ramen served aboard
were
soon notorious.  Spare parts destined for other couriers found their way
into Whipsnade's pockets.  Pay packets belonging to other courier crews
found their way there too, usually via rigged games of chance.  Squadron
command could never quite prove anything (Whipsnade and Ramen were smart
enough to cut their chain of command in on whatever they had going) but
any
vessel the two served aboard soon became a pariah within the squadron.
     As is normal in any human organization, the twin headaches already
known as Ramen and Whipsnade were passed down the squadron's pecking order

until they were posted to a courier commanded by one Roderick Spode.
     Spode was in charge of the squadron's worst performing ship.  His
command was dumping ground for all the malcontents, criminals, and
incompetents that the squadron found on their rolls.  The crew was surly
and
uncooperative, the vessel rarely passed any inspections, and had a near
perfect unavailability record.  All of this was despite Spode's attempts
to
whip "his ship" into "shape".  Spode didn't realize that he'd been dumped
there too.
     Naturally, as luck would have it, Spode's courier was tapped to carry

one of the war's most important pieces of information; the news that the
Zhodani Abyss campaign had begun.  This information proved that Duke
Norris'
reading of the enemy's plans was correct and that Adm. Santanocheev's
suppositions had been wrong.  This bit of info permanently settled the
Duke
into the position he had assumed with the use of the Imperial Warrant and
put to rest any questions about his actions.
     Raiding forces belonging to the Consulate tried to "seal" the Abyss
off
from any communication with the surrounding Imperial territories.  Spode's

courier had to both evade and fight it's way through this attempted
blockade.  While the crew was later decorated for their actions, it was
privately held that they accomplished this feat by blind chance and
happenstance.
     Almost immediately handing off their message to another courier,
Spode
and his crew were jumped by Zhodani warships and forced down on the
interdicted world of Algine.  Ramen and Whipsnade, thanks to their
knowledge
of advanced distillation techniques, spent the remaining years of the war
as
kings on a cannibal isle.  When the rescue team arrived, the pair were
"saved" at gun point.  Whipsnade still expresses a fondness for brightly
colored tropical shirts.
     Strangely enough, while Spode also survived the shoot down, he was
found working as a night soil collector, having been sold into chattel
slavery almost immediately upon his landing.  Also, it has never been
explained where Ramen and Whipsnade got the start-up capital for their
distillery.
     War's end found Whipsnade "rescued" and immediately discharged.  The
IN
may have decorated him, but they no longer wanted him in their ranks.  He
knocked around the Marches for a while, usually working as a drive hand
aboard tramp traders.  In a stroke of good luck, he ran across a newly
discharged Ramen on Regina and, after proving his worth by programming
several thousand drink recipes into Ramen's valet 'bot, was accepted as
the
engineer aboard the detached duty courier "Spinward Shemp".
     In his new position as "Director of Engineering Operations" (he has
the
business cards to prove it), Whipsnade has travelled around most of the
Marches.  Life aboard the "Shemp" is no bed of roses however.  Although
the
IISS picks up the tab for such incidentals as fuel, life support, and
maintenance, if a body wants for a few of the comforts of life, he must
find
a way to pay for them.
     While the "Shemp" is in port, Whipsnade can be found either working
the
startown strip or nosing about second-hand book shops.  He is usually
running the short con, grinding beer and skittle money out of any handy
rube
with either cards, pool cues, or three cups and a small ball bearing.
Behind him lays a wake of disgruntled bartenders, stiffed waitresses,
angry
landladies, and various sundry other persons he either has defrauded,
bilked, or owes small funds to.  While he is rarely ejected from any
premises, he is equally rarely welcomed.
     Usually dressed in a flat black swallow tail coat and sporting a
straw
boater, this rotund reprobate can be easily spotted in any startown.  His
greasy stringy hair and stepped-on looking face cause him to stand out in
any crowd and "starring" in the MYMINES Road pictures hasn't helped any
either.  Whipsnade never seems to quite fit in anywhere he happens to be.
And while he can sometimes make adults fall for his manorial pretensions,
children and dogs are never fooled.  Neither are the Vargar.
     The amount of cash on his person varies from hour to hour, but is
rarely enough to make mugging him worthwhile.  He can usually be found in
possession of small items that do not strictly belong to him, but somehow
their worth falls below felonious levels.  A quick search of his pockets
will turn up the cups and ball bearing already mentioned, a roll of
quarter
credit coins, a small spool of plastic twine, a  paperback book (Whipsnade

is a voracious, if somewhat eclectic reader), and a few pawn tickets.
Although he can use both a handgun and knife, he rarely carries any
weapons
at all and usually manages to quickly and permanently lose any weapons he
comes across.
     Whipsnade's quarters aboard the "Spinward Shemp" are equally barren,
just a few changes of clothes, some engineering manuals, the usual mixture

of tools necessary for his work, and a few books.
     Despite his fraudulent air, Whipsnade is a surprisingly easy touch
for
anyone with a sad story.  Folks really down on their luck might find
themselves given enough money for a week's meals and lodging.  After a
particularly big score, the alms box of a startown charity may find an
unusually large and anonymous donation.
     There are constant whispers that both Ramen and Whipsnade work for
one
intelligence agency or another.  The exact agency, be it military,
governmental, or corporate, depends on the whisperer.  Some dismiss this
as
idle gossip, someone as notorious as Ramen or Whipsnade would make a poor
agent.  Others counter that their very popularity makes them perfect
agents
as no one would suspect them.
     While the "Road" pictures have made MYMINES Productions LIC. millions

of credits, and are even shown in the Palace if the rumors are true, both
Ramen and Whipsnade never seem to earn any real money from them.  Again,
the
whisperers point out that this would be a perfect cover for intelligence
operatives.


      That's it.  Hope you can use him and, if you do, be kind!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

Fred Ramen, Scout and Entertainer

Generation Method: See Kinsey, "Biology of the Sophonts"

768BC6, 29 years old

Cr 20,000 in the bank, Cr 30,000 in outstanding debts
Hand Computer, extensive book collection, Type S Scout/Courier _Spinward
Shemp_

Computer-1 Brawling-1 Artisan(Writing)-2 History-1 Carousing-1 Disguise-1
Dance-1 Rifleman-0

Pilot-1 Streetwise-1 Stealth-1 Navigation-1 Fast Talk-1 Music-1

(Skills in the first line are taken from "real life" whatever that may be;

the second line is implied skills from the adventures of Larsen and Fred)

Never officially a member of the IISS, Ramen has nonetheless been a
"permanent temp" for many years now. He supplements his income by
appearing
with the infamous Larsen E. Whipsnade in a variety of MYMINES, Inc.
produced
"entertainment's," which have proved bizarrely popular. The bulk of his
fortune was acquired on the once-popular TNS Quiz Show, "Extreme Danger,"
several years ago.

(Physical characteristics in the UPP are estimates only; -2 to Dex if
vision
correction [glasses or contacts] not available. End was approximated on
the
number of blocks I walk each week (50 each way to my shrink's twice a week

alone). Education based on 7=HS Grad, 9=BA, 11=MA, 13=PhD. Brawling is a
result of two years at the toughest aikido dojo in NYC; Rifleman based on
my
weekend at the firing range while in the Boy Scouts--somewhere I still
have
the NRA certificate they gave me. Computer and Writing are how I make my
living. Dance--well, I paid enough for lessons, so I'm taking the skill.)

Fred Ramen



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
History repeats itself; that's one of the things that's wrong with
history.
                               -Clarence Darrow



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 08:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun May 12 07:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] All Psi party
In-Reply-To: <kguqdu416tts6fgtslb29qj50b2ima1msn@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020512144032.51042.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>

--- JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 May 2002 09:09:54 +1000, Timothy Little
> <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:
> Now, why are the player characters travelling this
> great distance into
> a little-known polity in search of an archive of
> that polity's prior
> research?  What if this archive would give the
> Imperium a significant
> start in developing its own psionic population and
> the Zho's would
> just as soon maintain a monopoly on this knowledge
> and ability?
> Psionics would represent a strategic advantage for
> the Zhodani in any
> future encounters with the Imperium.  And, if they
> can manage to
> induce the Imperium to actively avoid psionic
> development, it would
> strengthen this advantage even further.
      You are almost inside my head on this one.
There is a Vilani Noble/scholar who is after the same
thing. However his ship has contracted virus and this
gives them about a week's head start. Sad thing is, if
one of the party hadn't been so paranoid and left
him,and his yacht and crew stranded in this
condition.he could have been a powerfull ally. You did
give me an idea as to what to do after the sister
ship\rear guard ship catches up to him; An 80,000 dton
battlerider.
> 
> And, regarding investigators, if you want to place
> some motivation
> behind the player characters, what if a particular
> planetary noble, in
> some way injured by the player characters, takes it
> upon himself to
> pursue them.  Sometimes calling in favors, other
> times spending
> ridiculous sums to have his way, he keeps following
> them from planet
> to planet, always only a single step behind them. 
> Though not
> initially certain of their nature, as time goes by
> and he learns more
> about them, he begins to view them as a real threat
> Imperial safety
> and uses this as justification to call upon other
> Imperial forces in
> the pursuit.  In some ways, this could turn into a
> Traveller version
> of The Fugitive, and would certainly be fodder for
> many plots.
      See comment above.
> What about the player characters becoming interested
> in setting the
> foundations for what would become the Psionic
> Suppressions?  Those
> Suppressions, though undoubtedly inconvenient for
> existing Zhodani
> agents-in-place, also removed a significant asset
> from the Imperium in
> regard to any potential future conflicts.
That's an interesting thought. I've been trying to
educate myself on canonical Traveller,don't know the
best place to turn to on that except online library
data. I fudge things a bit imtu because there are so
many historical events I want to occur it's hard to
leave some out.
> 
> Now I may be attributing too much foresight on the
> part of the Zhodani
> of that era.  I'll certainly admit that my knowledge
> of Traveller
> canon is far from complete, and doubly so as regards
> the Zhodani.
> The characters are from a university in the
consulate that recently came across evidence of this
Vilani repository and sent these two guy,(basically
researchers) to go there and try to dig up anything
they could.
I appreciate your input and interest. You've given me
an idea with the pursuit and psi suppression hooks.
You have my grattitude. Any further input is welcome.

> JR Holmes
> jrholmes@wi.rr.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
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LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 09:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun May 12 08:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Plot hook
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020512114338.00cc0ba8@mail.charter.net>

Here's a real life example converted to Traveller terms.
I got the story over drinks with a former revolutionary.


The setting, a world in the Spinward Marches, near the Vargr border.
The situation, the Vargr on this world wouldn't mind being third class 
citizens. It would be a step up.

They are forced to live in isolated areas, denied military service, 
government service, a decent education, reliable medical care, reliable 
services (water, sanitization, and worse of all, their Internet access is 
limited to archaic devices called '1200 baud modems'.

There is a group of Vargr working to improve their lot in life on this 
planet.  They have a political wing, which is recognized by the Zhodani 
government, the Sword World governments, and various Vargr governments 
across the border.  The Imperials and the Darrians acknowledge them, but 
have limited contact due to the political realities.

The players are not part of the political wing.  They are part of the 
direct action group.  A group (Platoon sized) of their comrades in The 
Struggle (yes, they pronounce the capitals) are going to be smuggled on to 
the planet.   A cutter is going to slip past a prearranged hole in the 
satellite net and drop them off in a remote wilderness area.  These fellows 
are bring sanitized military equipment (pistols, ACRs, a few gauss sniper 
rifles, explosives, mines, etc.).  Oh...did I mention that the Vargr here 
are not allowed to carry anything more dangerous than a spork? You have to 
house, feed and provide local ID, clothes and cover stories for them.  Then 
arrange transport for them to areas that your superiors feel need some 
'direct action.'



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
The Taliban representative was explaining the good
the Taliban had done for the country. He started
his statement with "We have disarmed the people..."
-- CNN special "Inside Afghanistan"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 12:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun May 12 11:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Unobtanium in the news
Message-ID: <200205121801.GCO01842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?
xml=/news/2002/05/12/wnugg12.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/05/12/ixwor
ld.html

Presumably, the earth is being struck by strangelets on a 
regular basis.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 12:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun May 12 11:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
Message-ID: <F106yfogkJXrRjbDt3H000123f4@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Rainy day at Casa Diablo, the Whipsnadian ancestral yurt, and the Flops 
have begun their usual season-long losing streak, thanks to Seattle and 
Ichiro, so this rotound reprobate planted himself in front of the boob tube. 
  The Discovery Channel broadcasts a deceptively innocuous program on 
mega-tsunamis and the weary Whipsnadian wetware sputtered to life.
     We've all heard of tsunamis, earthquake under the sea someplace, the 
sea bottom shifts and a nice ~10 meter wave is born.  Well, there seems to 
be another mechanism for generating the damn things; landslides.  
Specifically big honking landslides from volcanic islands.
     In 1958, a couple ten million tons of rock slid into the sea along the 
mouth of a bay in Alaska.  The result was a wave 520 METERS high.  Believe 
it or not, some witnesses actually survived.
     Once the geology boffins knew what to look for, they began sniffing 
around the globe for other similar events in the "recent" past.
About ~70K BCE, a chunk of Oahu about 10 times the size of Everest fell into 
the Pacific.  The mega-tsunami that hit the US west coast is estimated to 
have been above 1 KILOMETER in height.  It also took only a few hours to 
travel the distance.
     The most recent event found so far involved an island in the Indian 
Ocean ~4K BCE.  The mega-tsunami would have hit Australia.  Makes you wonder 
what the Aborigenes witnessed...
     Naturally, to increase the fear quotient and thus the ratings, the 
program looked at La Palma in the Canary Islands off west Africa.  The rock 
boffins seem to think that one of the islands there may be showing signs of 
the type of landslide required.  You need lots of rainfall, groundwater, 
faults in specific areas, an somewhat active volcano, and so forth.  The 
prerequisites fortunately come together rarely.  The chunk of island 
effected in the Canaries is about a half a TRILLION tons.  They think the 
wave would be ~650 meters high and would move at 750 kph.
     Surfs up, dude!


ObTrav - Need a BIG natural disaster that doesn't involve near-C rocks?  
Your PCs could witness the event from orbit (my personal preference) and 
then get roped into the "recovery" efforts.
     For those of you who run darker campaigns, some villain or government 
could be trying to trigger such an event.  How they would trigger the 
necessary landslide is naturally up to you, but my first guess would involve 
several bore holes and timed nuclear detonations.


      Sincerely,
      Larsen, ferverishly packing for my move to Kansas

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 13:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun May 12 12:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] #traveller topical talk #1 - POSTPONED ONE WEEK
Message-ID: <heftdu4406ibbv9mgbrr85j139ovfjjj7r@4ax.com>

I screwed up; I admit it.  I scheduled this for the same night as a meeting
that I _have_ to attend.  Since I can't change the meeting (and likely
won't be out of it until after 11PM), but I can change the IRC chat time,
I'm changing the latter to the same time - 9PM EDT - but on Friday May 24
instead of Friday May 17.  My apologies.


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 13:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Sun May 12 12:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <F106yfogkJXrRjbDt3H000123f4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1f9ea$c7a86550$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>

Yup, I saw that one too...

	Kinda weird that people are looking for something that's going
to hit us from space when we've got so many other ways of which to die
right here on earth...

Fortunately, these events are fairly far spaced and it is rare that
mother nature comes unhinged so precipitously, but there are a BUNCH of
hooks there for an adventure or two.

	Speaking of mother nature, the weather can also be a powerful
tool for GMs to rein in their victims (erm, I mean, players). And if you
hadn't noticed, she can be a real bitch sometimes...


			


  

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 1:59 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed: Mega-tsunamis

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Rainy day at Casa Diablo, the Whipsnadian ancestral yurt, and the
Flops 
have begun their usual season-long losing streak, thanks to Seattle and 
Ichiro, so this rotound reprobate planted himself in front of the boob
tube. 
  The Discovery Channel broadcasts a deceptively innocuous program on 
mega-tsunamis and the weary Whipsnadian wetware sputtered to life.
     We've all heard of tsunamis, earthquake under the sea someplace,
the 
sea bottom shifts and a nice ~10 meter wave is born.  Well, there seems
to 
be another mechanism for generating the damn things; landslides.  
Specifically big honking landslides from volcanic islands.
     In 1958, a couple ten million tons of rock slid into the sea along
the 
mouth of a bay in Alaska.  The result was a wave 520 METERS high.
Believe 
it or not, some witnesses actually survived.
     Once the geology boffins knew what to look for, they began sniffing

around the globe for other similar events in the "recent" past.
About ~70K BCE, a chunk of Oahu about 10 times the size of Everest fell
into 
the Pacific.  The mega-tsunami that hit the US west coast is estimated
to 
have been above 1 KILOMETER in height.  It also took only a few hours to

travel the distance.
     The most recent event found so far involved an island in the Indian

Ocean ~4K BCE.  The mega-tsunami would have hit Australia.  Makes you
wonder 
what the Aborigenes witnessed...
     Naturally, to increase the fear quotient and thus the ratings, the 
program looked at La Palma in the Canary Islands off west Africa.  The
rock 
boffins seem to think that one of the islands there may be showing signs
of 
the type of landslide required.  You need lots of rainfall, groundwater,

faults in specific areas, an somewhat active volcano, and so forth.  The

prerequisites fortunately come together rarely.  The chunk of island 
effected in the Canaries is about a half a TRILLION tons.  They think
the 
wave would be ~650 meters high and would move at 750 kph.
     Surfs up, dude!


ObTrav - Need a BIG natural disaster that doesn't involve near-C rocks?

Your PCs could witness the event from orbit (my personal preference) and

then get roped into the "recovery" efforts.
     For those of you who run darker campaigns, some villain or
government 
could be trying to trigger such an event.  How they would trigger the 
necessary landslide is naturally up to you, but my first guess would
involve 
several bore holes and timed nuclear detonations.


      Sincerely,
      Larsen, ferverishly packing for my move to Kansas

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

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http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun May 12 13:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <F106yfogkJXrRjbDt3H000123f4@hotmail.com>
References: <F106yfogkJXrRjbDt3H000123f4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <t6jtdusaho3prd0h5v3l6ta0rdr6op7sb6@4ax.com>

On Sun, 12 May 2002 18:58:55 +0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

Another, similarly rare, natural disaster would be represented by a
particular large lake in Africa.  It seems that there is a volcanic
vent which acts as a source for carbon dioxide.  Slowly, over very
long periods of time, the cold water at the bottom of the lake has
become supersaturated with the gas.  A thermocline has kept that
supersaturated water isolated from the surface water with very little
mixing of the two.

Now, the problem is that the carbon dioxide-laden water is actually
less dense than the surface water, but only the stability of the
thermocline and comparative lack of disturbance has kept it trapped
down there (and incidently getting even more saturated).

Geologists have found that every few centuries there is some minor
trigger event which causes saturated water to suddenly well up.  When
that water reaches the surface, in one giant burp megatons of CO2 are
released into the atmosphere in a matter of minutes.  The geological
findings showed evidence of animals killed due to lack of oxygen more
than two kilometers away.

Today, the lake is bordered by a city of more than 100,000, and it's
going to happen again.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 14:57:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun May 12 13:57:18 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508183946.009f8a30@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20512.135845.7S6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> (If only the Mayan calender had six suns, instead of five, I could have 
> worked that in as well.)

Huh?

It's got cycles of 20, 13, and 360. And those "extra" 5 days to make
the length of the year come out right. What's this "five suns" bit?

And don't forget, we've got the end of the great cycle coming in a few years!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 15:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Sun May 12 14:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Avenging Aphid
References: <20020511032908.8D49627A54@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CDED336.CB913562@ameritech.net>



> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 19:29:56 -0500
> From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re:  [TML] Avenging Aphid
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> <snippage>
> 
> I think one of these ships just landed at the port.
> Looks good!

Thanks. It's a concept I've been mulling over for a 
while that finally saw fruition. 

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 15:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May 12 14:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: my milieu wishlist
Message-ID: <20020512.141126.-16523.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

On Sun, 12 May 2002 14:12:58 +0800 "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
writes:
> Are you now, or have you ever been a member of a psionics institute?
> 
> Antony

Since you deem it necessary to ask rather than "probe" for an answer, I
don't have to answer :~)

Turokan

..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 15:12:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May 12 14:12:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
Message-ID: <20020512.141126.-16523.1.generalturokan@juno.com>

Larsen,

On Sun, 12 May 2002 18:58:55 +0000 "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
> 
<snipage of nice discussion about tsunamis>

> ObTrav - Need a BIG natural disaster that doesn't involve near-C rocks?
 
> Your PCs could witness the event from orbit (my personal preference)
and 
> then get roped into the "recovery" efforts.
>     For those of you who run darker campaigns, some villain or
government 
> could be trying to trigger such an event.  How they would trigger the 
> necessary landslide is naturally up to you, but my first guess would
involve 
> several bore holes and timed nuclear detonations.

What would the effect be if a Meson weapon was used on a tectonic fault
line?

>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen, feverishly packing for my move to Kansas

Larsen, you better head for the Black Hills, Kansas is beach front
property. :~)


General Turokan <finger on the button>

..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 15:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun May 12 14:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Annual Maintenance
In-Reply-To: <20020511032906.EFB5127A58@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205122325150.9011-100000@ask.diku.dk>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" writes:

>     It's when we try and fit annual maintenance into the consensual
>hallucination known as the OTU that things get squirrelly.  Take a map of
>the Spinward Marches, mark down all the Imperial class "A" and "B" ports at
>TL14/15, then try to imagine the Imperial Navy cycling EVERY warship in
>EVERY fleet through those locations EVERY year.  Add navy bases and depots
>to your map and the exercise still remains formidable.

Well, recall that Class A and B starports are civilian information. If a
world with sufficiently high TL can build ships regardless of its starport
type, surely it can perform maintenance too, regardless of its starport
class. So to begin with it is ALL TL 14/15 worlds (with sufficient
population) that can perform maintenance. Then, it is unclear if you need
a TL 15 world to maintain a TL 15 ship. Some rules says you do (I think it
was TCS) but other rules says you can maintain any ship at any Class A
starport. So you also have all worlds with Class A starports (again with
the caveat of sufficient population size) available. Third, naval bases
definitely qualify to perform maintenance regardless of local TL or
starport class. Fourth, we don't know the exact composition of the
IN's auxiliary ships. One obvious concept is repair vessels of various
kinds as well as deep space shipyards, movable or not. If the warships
can't come to the shipyards, maybe the various navies take the shipyards
to the warships.

>     It was noted on the "CT-Starships" list last year that the Julian
>Protectorate has quite a problem with annual maintenance.  The only TL15,
>class "A" port available to that polity is so far away from the Julian's
>borders with the Imperials and K'Kree that warships being maintained there
>would spend the majority of their operational time simply travelling back
>and forth between the port and the front(s).  Strange way to fight, spend a
>week or two in combat and the rest of your time driving to and from the
>garage.

You could take that as evidence for the existence of repair/maintenance
vessels. The situation you describe is so silly that there must be another
explanation.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 15:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun May 12 14:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Request
In-Reply-To: <20020511032906.EFB5127A58@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205122338320.9011-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Mike West writes:
>Well, being the Daryen lover that I am, I would like to see some
>Spinward Marches material for different time peroids.
>
>Three examples that immediately come to mind:
>
>Year 0: No permanent Imperial or Zhodani settlements, but Daryens
>and Sword Worlds are active.  This gives players *lots* of room
>to maneuver.

If you have a subscription to JTAS Online, you should take a look at my
writeup of the Sacnoth Dominate. I plan to follow up with writeups of the
Sword Worlds at various other points up through history. At them moment
I'm working on the Five States Era (-11 to 98). References to the Darrians
is scanty in the Sacnoth Dominate (the Sword Worlders were afraid of
cultural contamination and tried to keep contact to a minimum), but there
will be more contact between the two societies at later dates.

>Year 300-400: Imperial foothold, lots of independent settlements.
>Still very much a frontier.

A time of much trouble for the Sword Worlds. They go from being divided
into five interstellar realms in 300 to nine in 400 to eight in 500 to
five (and not the same five) in 589. I'm not sure whether to write the
whole period (the Squabbling States Era) up in one article or split them
up in several (Basically I have trouble differentiating the different
periods here; details will vary but the overall picture will be much the
same).

I'm also planning a Year 600 and a Year 800 writeup.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 16:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun May 12 15:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Law
In-Reply-To: <20020510204508.E69BF27A32@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205130003520.9011-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Charles (CHam628781@aol.com) writes:
>
>In a message dated 10/05/02 01:28:36 GMT Daylight Time, rancke@diku.dk
>writes:
>
>'Child endangerment'? What makes you think the Imperium would have the
>concept of child endangerment at all?
></Quote>
>
>Because the dominant species of the Imperium are all High K. They invest m=
any
>years in the raising of their offspring.

For most of recorded history (human history, I mean) the concept of child
endangerment was unknown. Indeed, there are plenty of people alive today
that considers it unwarranted interference by the authorities to tell them
what they can and cannot do to their children.

><Quote>
>>Furthermore any definition must be simple enough to be applicable on some
>>backwater with limited access to high tech equipment and must be
>>applicable only after a limited encounter with a new species.
>
>Only if the Emperor thinks that is important.
></Quote>
>
>IMNSHO the Emperor will always consider it important because the last thin=
g
>you want to do is antagonise someone more powerful than you by accident.

Well, if they don't have enough control of their environment to make it
obvious that they're sapient, they're unlikely to be powerful enough to
trouble the Emperor's sleep.

><Quote>
>>I can't think of such a definition and there is evidence from canon that
>>the Imperium can't either.*
>
>I'd be interested in hearing that evidence.
></Quote>
>
>T4 "Aliens Archive" pg. 78 the Nunclees.

One of the T4 books I never managed to find discounted to a price I was
willing to pay. Can you summarize?

><Quote>
>>...then it is deep trouble because all law must be based on the
>>ability to define who or what is protected.
>
>Ask your friendly neighborhood noble and he'll tell you.
>
>>...With no universal definition of murder there can be no universal
>>definition of property...
>
>That one went right over my head. I don't see it and I don't see the need
>for a universal definition of property for that matter.
>
>>...and I leave it to your imagination where that might lead.
>
>Please elucidate.

>OK. When a character purchases a starship he borrows the money from the ba=
nk.
>The starship is property and the bank owns it. But who owns the bank and h=
ow
>does the bank decide that the species to which the character belongs can b=
e
>lent money? On our world that's not a difficult question because there are=
 a
>limited number of sapient species and the non-human ones are too intellige=
nt
>to get mixed up with banks. In the Imperium however there has to be a clea=
r
>definition of who (what?) can actually own property or nobody will know wh=
ere
>they stand.

That one is easy. If there is the slightest doubt about the sapiency of a
prospective loan taker, the bank doesn't make the loan. Contrariwise, if
they think they will be able to collect, they'll lend money to a Denebian
Swamp Ox.

>More importantly that definition must be universal because if it is not a
>(for example) female starship owner could land in the Misogyny of Blumblat
>and discovers because women can't hold property her starship now belongs t=
o
>the Grand Plonker himself.

Again not a problem. If the Grand Plonker has a habit of doing something
like that, the Imperial Navy will pay a visit and disabuse him of any such
notion. Witness what happened to Lewis when they tried to do a little
priacy disguised as toll-collecting.

>Hope that helps.

Sorry, no. You're creating problems that doesn't exist (Well, that I
can't see existing, anyway).

> Charles
>
> "Rule One: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly
> smiling men!"
>
> Terry Pratchett, The Thief of Time
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 9
> From: "Swordy" <tml@downport.com>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Subject: RE: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
> Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 15:48:44 -0400
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > On Behalf Of J. Paul Sanders
> > > What period/setting would folks most like to see a sourcebook on?
> >
> > I'm sure I'm in the minority, but for me - The Imperium has been done t=
o
> > death - the amount of setting/historical minutia that's been detailed i=
s
> > staggering... I'd like to see something less background specific and mo=
re
> > general...
>
> "Me too"
>
> > Such a sourcebook that would allow my PCs to set out for parts unknown =
and
> > run a complete campaign in a new semi-blank sector that would allow me,
> the
> > ref., having to generate absolutely everything from scratch -
> > this is what I am talking about.
>
> Something new, someplace else. And it doesn't have to be a whole sector. =
A
> subsector with twenty places to visit is a huge undertaking.
>
> For instance, my first Ref in 1978 had made a Gateway style rock for us t=
o
> start from and threw his d6,d6 on a simple encounter-style chart for our
> destination that session. 36 worlds was a challenge and many were taken
> right out of the pages of his favorite books, but we had a blast on 5 out=
 of
> 6 worlds (worlds 61-66 were all very nasty places).
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 12:50:39 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> --- "J. Paul Sanders" <jps64@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > ass) - sort of a
> > sector-wide "World Tamers Handbook" ("Sector Tamer's
> > Handbook" ???).
>
> Along these same lines, I would like to see a "High
> Level Game" that allows for the development of a
> planet.
>
> Actually, this goes really well with several of the
> posted requests.  I mean, people were asking for an
> extended history of a subsector.  That would involve
> the extended history of the planets.  For example, how
> did that planet go from C766687-9 to A7679AA-D?  When
> and how did the settlement of the GG moons take place?
>
> A game setting on the high level that allows players
> to play a planet and see their planet grow as they
> deal with their planetary neighbors.  All of this
> either in or out of the OTU.
>
> I think this, played solo, could allow a GM to detail
> a subsector sized gaming environment fairly easily.  I
> mean, the notes from these games would be "landgrabs"
> of the worlds in the subsector.
>
> I know that TNE's World Tamer's Handbook dealt with
> colony level, but IIRC, it fell apart at much larger
> size than a smallish colony.  Once the colony got
> large enough to spread to different locations, the
> system didn't work as well.
>
> I'm not sure what is in GT:First In or in DGP's World
> Tamer's Handbook, but maybe they too can lend some
> information to the topic.
>
> While I'm not stepping up to write such a book, I
> would gladly work with others interested in hashing
> out the rules for such a game.
>
> Paul
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 11
> From: "John Strain" <missingjn@dixie-net.com>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Naval Command Question
> Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 15:08:23 -0500
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> Anthony....
>
> I treat Command options as a -4- year set...Naval Rules implies a one yea=
r
> tour...
>
> reuping is only required if a poor roll was done during the four
> years....assignment may be to a  single ship or trasfered to another ship
> during that four year period.
> --John Strain
> -------------------
> From: "Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu>
>
> How long does a ship's captain remain aboard as her CO? --Anthony Coloset=
ti
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 16:09:49 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Munchkins, et al
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> On 9 May 2002 at 12:43, John T. Kwon wrote:
> > >My group typically hates to lose a character and goes to
> > >great lengths to plan, plot, equip, etc. for a mission,
>
> > Also, there's not going to be a way to complete an adventure
> > on your own -- regardless of how many skills you have.  You
> > can't be everywhere, and you can't think of everything.
>
> Ah, but I think that's part of the what my friends enjoy - planning
> for the mission.  Not too much as we do eventually recognize it can be
> overdone and we're wasting time, but it's a challenge to them
> to work with what they've got and try to find solutions or plans
> that give the best chances in a given timeframe.  It also means they
> walk around "prepared" - well, the military types anyway.
>
> --
> Rob
>
> 'enlarged to show texture.'
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 10:10:31 -0400
> From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] re Hasty words
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> Mike West wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > Aside from that, assuming reasonable planning, it should be quite possi=
ble
> > for someone to commit a murder (or even a group murder) and flee to ano=
ther
> > planet.  It is much, much more difficult to have a pattern of murder an=
d
> > freely move between planets.  Unless you have a ship.  And the only peo=
ple
> > I can think of that would have a ship and do something as unprofitable =
as
> > serial killing are PCs and nobles.
>
> Its not a job, its a hobby. An NPC on the party's ship has been killing o=
n
> every planet he's visited for over 2 years. The cops were beginning to ca=
tch on
> when they were on a 3 leg route, but were focusing on a PC (Wonder why?).=
 Then
> they got a long term charter and to the cops on those worlds the serial k=
illing
> stopped. He averages only one killing per month now  because of some leng=
thy
> stays on a few worlds.  He waits till the night before lift off, picks up=
 a
> girl in a bar or on the street. Hopefully goes to her place, if not cash =
for a
> moderate quality hotel and a fake ID. By the time the body is found he's =
in
> jump space.  Eventually I expect he'll be caught in the act, but if he
> separates the murders in space and time (through planning or luck), there=
's no
> reason he can't go on killing for years. (Well that nasty disease that ca=
used
> him to go insane. But that's beside the point)
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> History repeats itself; that's one of the things that's wrong with
> history.
>                                -Clarence Darrow
>
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 15:50:53 -0400
> From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Serial Killers (was: Hasty words)
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> Tod Glenn wrote:
>
> > Again, you assume the killer acts by 'choice', with a notion of 'profit=
'.  I
> > don't think that fits the patter of the true serial killer.  I don't th=
ink
> > John Wayne Gacy or Jeffery Daumer or others like them did it because th=
ey
> > had nothing better to do.
> >
> > How is something like this dealt with in the Imperium?  Do the planets =
just
> > have to sort it out for themselves.  Does the criminal get away with it
> > forever.
> >
> > Another class of criminal that comes to mind is large scale organized c=
rime.
> > With resources and cash, they can commit mayhem and then move on to the=
 next
> > world.
> >
> > In both of these cases, it seems to me that there is some Imperial inte=
rest
> > in dealing with these crimes.  Perhaps not.  I'd be curious to hear peo=
ple
> > opinions.
>
> IMTU there is an INTERPOL of sorts. Fortunately for criminals it is slow =
and
> clunky in its day to day operations. If they only stay in the business fo=
r a few
> years there's a chance they can make their money and get out. Interstella=
r serial
> killers would be slow to be identified. Large organizations are targeted =
but can
> be hard to root out depending on the local power structure.
>
> --
> Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
> www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
> History repeats itself; that's one of the things that's wrong with
> history.
>                                -Clarence Darrow
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 15
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
> From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
> Date: 10 May 2002 14:25:42 -0600
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> >
> > I think this, played solo, could allow a GM to detail a subsector
> > sized gaming environment fairly easily.
>
> What would be particularly nice would be if such a game were very
> rules-based.  That is, that it not call for GM fiat very often (if at
> all).  This means that it would be automatable, which means that
> (drumroll please) given a starting galaxy and a number of inhabited
> planets, one could create the entire future history of that galaxy.
>
> Which would be really cool:-)
>
> Dunno how doable it is.  One would need rules for when space tech is
> available, rules for when jump tech is available, rules to model
> warlike character, rules to model war itself.  It'd sure be fun to
> play with.
>
> Someday, when travtrack is done...
>
> --
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Christos Voskrese iz mertvych
> Smertiju smert' poprav
> I suscim vo hrobich zi
> Vot darovav!
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 16:27:10 -0400
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Hasty words
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> At 12:52 PM 5/9/2002, CHam628781@aol.com wrote:
> >A minimum standard requires a definition, the Imperium must stand up and
> >say what that minimum standard is and worlds must know how it is applied=
=2E
>
> As has oft been stated, the Imperium is a government of men, and not
> laws.  Rather than make a complex and definite rule that covers all cases
> that have (or will) occur in a millennia over 11,000 worlds, the Imperium
> has a general laws on the Emperor's authority.  These are defined and
> applied to the local situation by the Subsector, Sector, and Domain
> nobility (ultimately with the authority and support of the Emperor).
>
> >My argument is that the Imperium cannot even take the first step toward =
a
> >workable law of contract because it will be unable to define who or what=
 may
> >engage in contract making.
>
> It seems to me that the Imperium must have solved this problem in order t=
o
> exist.  If we both are agreed that the Imperium does exist in the Travell=
er
> universe, there most be a "good enough" workable solution to this
> problem.  I'd suggest that this is based on some definition of sapient
> individuals as eligible to enter into a contract, and further laws defini=
ng
> the creation and management of corporate entities.
>
> >Yes but how does the Imperium set the standard? This is my whole point: =
it
> >can't use the word sapient because it can't meaningful define it.
>
> The Imperium can and does define it, using the same basis as almost
> everything else in the Imperium: by proclamation of the Emperor.  In most
> cases, this is straightforward: "We have determined the inhabitants of th=
e
> world Xplotz who call themselves Glarbach to be sapient.  All members of
> that species who reside in the Imperium are sapient Citizens of the
> Imperium, and are accorded all of the attendant rights and responsibiliti=
es
> under our Law.  (signed, Strepon, 1101)"
>
> The Emperor, of course, is not an xenologist - he or she is advised by th=
e
> IISS, which may have spent years or decades researching the situation,
> examining the situation from various angles.  Yes, this is essentially an
> arbitrary process - but one of the advantages of a feudal system like the
> Imperium is that this can be made to work, so long as the results are
> reasonable for most people most of the time.  While some findings will be
> politically motivated (for example, a marginal species might be proclaime=
d
> to be sentient to stymie a rival's ambitions on a planet), the overall
> result will be workable for the Imperium as a whole.  The boundary cases
> are good adventure fodder.
>
> In cases involving previously unknown species, there will likely be a del=
ay
> as a preliminary determination is made by the appropriate Nobility and II=
SS
> officials make a preliminary determination.  Given the communication time
> between the frontier and Capitol, this preliminary determination is likel=
y
> to stand for several years, until the formal proclamation is made.
>
> >What if the  traditions of the World A hold that only True Believers are
> >sapient and all others are mere fleshy automata
>
> The Emperor's proclamation clearly trumps that; World A will have to go
> along at least at a gross level when offworlders are around (the de-facto
> reality - particularly in areas far from the starport - may be
> different).  If World A persists in killing every non-believer that steps
> on planet, will soon find themselves literally in a world of trouble with
> the Imperium.
>
> >And what criteria does the IISS use to determine sapience? How does it d=
ecide
> >a species is worthy of the tag "probably sapient?"
>
> On a case-by-case basis, preferably with decades of observation and
> research in the field (this is the stuff of which adventures can be made)=
,
> and comparison to other cases and available scientific literature.  Take =
a
> look in the various books that deal with the IISS - surveying worlds,
> determining if the inhabitants are sapient, etc. are part of the IISS mis=
sion.
>
>
>    --- Derek Wildstar
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                   "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!=
"
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 16:37:40 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Munchkins, et al
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> On 9 May 2002 at 9:49, Tod Glenn wrote:
> > > My group typically hates to lose a character and goes to great
> > > lengths to plan, plot, equip, etc. for a mission, going in looking
> > > like a ragtag bunch of tanks (OK, not that bad) when violence is
> > > likely and suspiciously paranoid when it's not.  I.e., their
> > > characters do things that might be considered odd by the 'real
> > > people' of that milieu. When playing Top Secret years ago, it wasn't
> > > that unusual for to walk around wearing kevlar just investigating
> > > things, before any guns were drawn. Does that make them (and yes,
> > > us) munchkins?  Or as I hope, just typical if a bit paranoid
> > > adventurers?
> >
> > I think that really it comes down to attitude.  A serious role player
> > will eventually tire of the super-being.  Sure, it's fun to run the
> > hyper-competant, well equipped character a time or two.  But for the
> > Munchkin, the whole reason d'etre is to become powerful and acquire
> > super gear.
>
> I guess that answers my question.  We don't want to play supermen, but do
> enjoy "cool stuff" and would rather have a character with a few above
> average stats to help survival chances.  Somewhat more "heroic" than
> Everyman, but not a Diehard/Schwarzenegger type either.
>
> We've talked about doing the equivalent of an Everyman type campaign, but
> given a couple of the group have serious medical conditions, it's more fu=
n
> for them to play slightly-more-than-real-life games and the
> idea never got off the ground.  Same with my attempt at running an
> Aftermath game using PCs of ourselves.
>
> > A smart player or character does take precautions.  That's perfectly
> > normal. Characters with experience should try to stack the odds in
> > their favor.  But the players sometimes have to go forward knowing
> > that there is great risk, and that one or more of them may not come
> > back.
>
> Well, on this count we are more "reluctant heroes" and aren't the best
> "roleplayers".
>
> > One of the telling signs to me is whether the character ever does
> > anything that may not be in his own best interest, but is 'in
> > character'.  A Munchkin will rarely want to proceed unless he is
> > absolutely certain he will prevail, and will get some big reward or
> > other goodie.  Or just be able to slaughter lots of the enemy.
>
> But on this count, I think we are roleplayers - we often have PCs do
> things that are "what the character would do" even to the detriment
> of the party.  A fair number of PCs have died or given their lives for
> the party.  Those stories are the ones that stick around and get
> retold too.  A couple of ballad/stories written from them too. (Not
> good ones, mind you, but we enjoyed them.)
>
> > Just my take.  I don't have a problem with players who game like this.
> >  It's just not what I'm interested in.
>
> Having not gamed with a lot of other people (especially since high
> school/college), conversations about munchkins/ powergamers/ roleplayers/
> storytellers alway have me wondering where my group fits in.  We're
> definitely not White Wolf or LARP types (i.e. storytellers, with no rules=
,
> etc.), but I don't think we're munchkins.  "Powergamers" maybe as someone
> else said, but that could be our wargaming background too.
>
> Just something I've wondered about for years.  (And seeing the various
> messages about S:N ratios, I'll shut up about this now.)
>
> --
> Rob
>
> More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
>  Ventis secundis, tene cursum.  --  Go with the flow.
>
>
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 18
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 13:16:44 -0700
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Meat
> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> Doug
>
> On Fri, 10 May 2002 08:30:49 -0700 Douglas Berry
> <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> > At 11:05 PM 5/10/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > > > > It's like my friend Ed says "I God had not wanted us to eat
> > animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat."
> > > >
> > > > No, no, no.
> > > >
> > > > If animals are not to be eaten, why are the made of food?
> > >
> > >I always remember it as "If God hadn't wanted us to eat people, he
> > >wouldn't have made us of meat."
> >
> > "Plants aren't food.. plants are what food eats."  I used this one
> > while  dealing with a strict vegan PeTA true believer at BayCon last
> year.
>
> Sorry Doug, I couldn't resist...
>
> Gen 1:29 =B6 And God said, See, I have given you every plant producing
> seed, on the face of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit
> producing seed: they will be for your food:
>
> ObTrav:
> You've landed on a quiet, peaceful, lush tropical world filled with
> plants and animals. You and your crew decide to hunt a creature which
> looks similar to a wild pig. You kill it, cook it, and are now eating the
> delicious meat.
>
> Suddenly you hear the racking of metal slides. You look up only to see
> 50+ soldiers aiming weapons at you. You're all taken prisoner. Why?
>
> You've violated their sacred law, and have eaten meat.
>
> Chaplain Bari
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>
> End of TML Digest
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 16:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun May 12 15:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Request
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205122338320.9011-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020511032906.EFB5127A58@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020512183508.024f7008@192.168.0.1>

At 11:52 PM 5/12/2002 +0200, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>Mike West writes:
> >Well, being the Daryen lover that I am, I would like to see some
> >Spinward Marches material for different time peroids.
> >Three examples that immediately come to mind:
> >Year 0: No permanent Imperial or Zhodani settlements, but Daryens
> >and Sword Worlds are active.  This gives players *lots* of room
> >to maneuver.
>If you have a subscription to JTAS Online, you should take a look at my
>writeup of the Sacnoth Dominate. I plan to follow up with writeups of the
>Sword Worlds at various other points up through history. At them moment
>I'm working on the Five States Era (-11 to 98). References to the Darrians
>is scanty in the Sacnoth Dominate (the Sword Worlders were afraid of
>cultural contamination and tried to keep contact to a minimum), but there
>will be more contact between the two societies at later dates.

Here is a link to some data on Sacnoth I generated a few years back.
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/SW/SW_Family.html>


> >Year 300-400: Imperial foothold, lots of independent settlements.
> >Still very much a frontier.
>
>A time of much trouble for the Sword Worlds. They go from being divided
>into five interstellar realms in 300 to nine in 400 to eight in 500 to
>five (and not the same five) in 589. I'm not sure whether to write the
>whole period (the Squabbling States Era) up in one article or split them
>up in several (Basically I have trouble differentiating the different
>periods here; details will vary but the overall picture will be much the
>same).
>
>I'm also planning a Year 600 and a Year 800 writeup.
>
>
>
>Hans

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Treeware" - Manuals and documentation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 16:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May 12 15:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <t6jtdusaho3prd0h5v3l6ta0rdr6op7sb6@4ax.com>
References: <F106yfogkJXrRjbDt3H000123f4@hotmail.com>
 <t6jtdusaho3prd0h5v3l6ta0rdr6op7sb6@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <m3it5trno1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com> writes:
>
> Geologists have found that every few centuries there is some minor
> trigger event which causes saturated water to suddenly well up.  When
> that water reaches the surface, in one giant burp megatons of CO2 are
> released into the atmosphere in a matter of minutes.  The geological
> findings showed evidence of animals killed due to lack of oxygen more
> than two kilometers away.
> 
> Today, the lake is bordered by a city of more than 100,000, and it's
> going to happen again.

The solution is, I believe, simple.  Evacuate the city for one day,
then drop a bunch of depth charges in the lake.  Then just drop depth
charges once every decade or so to prevent it from happening again.

Or am I missing something?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Voskrese!  Voistinu Voskrese!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 16:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun May 12 15:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
References: <20020512190107.95452279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003501c1fa07$b47a17e0$665d8690@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      For those of you who run darker campaigns, some villain or government
> could be trying to trigger such an event.  How they would trigger the
> necessary landslide is naturally up to you, but my first guess would
> involve several bore holes and timed nuclear detonations.

I've always had problems thinking of suitably megalomanic plans for
supervillains.  Thanks!

Supervillains, of course, are found in many genres...

Alan Bradley
who isn't packing, as he lives inland and up a mountain....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 17:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun May 12 16:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <t6jtdusaho3prd0h5v3l6ta0rdr6op7sb6@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020512235237.C356327990@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/12/02 at 03:24 PM,  JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com> said:

>On Sun, 12 May 2002 18:58:55 +0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
><grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Another, similarly rare, natural disaster would be represented by a
>particular large lake in Africa.  It seems that there is a volcanic
>vent which acts as a source for carbon dioxide.  Slowly, over very
>long periods of time, the cold water at the bottom of the lake has
>become supersaturated with the gas.  A thermocline has kept that
>supersaturated water isolated from the surface water with very little
>mixing of the two.

<snip>

I wonder if the same thing could happen with methane? When that
finally belched, you'd have the potential for a huge fireball.

BTW, we're having, sort of, a "weather event" in my Akus game right
now. The characters are on a lower tech planet, the home to one of
them, "Woof" Schultz. He's and another PC have gone off to visit the
relatives.

Turns out there has been a bad drought over the northern plain where
his "pack's" ranch is located. The river flowing past the ranch is
down to a mear trickle.  The other PC with Woof, Jezebel, pulls up
some satelite photos and notices that three of the tributaries to the
river have been dammed up. Woof and Jezebel ride off to investigate. 

When they get to the first dam they see that it was caused by a
landslide, but it looks like someone set charges to cause it. It also
appears they left something behind in the lake building behind the
dam. This something is a large cylinder on some sort of tracked
carridge. When Woof tries to report what they found he discovers that
his communcator is being jammed. 

Coincidentally, a hurricane is coming ashore to the south east of our
heroes as they investigate the dams, and although the worst of the
storm won't get over the low mountain range to them, it is starting to
rain as they near the second dam. Where they find the same set up...an
earthen dam with a device in the water, and a lake building up
pressure behind the dam.

The rain is *really* coming down now and the lakes behind the dams are
nearing their tops and the dams are in imminate danger of breaking. 
The PC's decide to split up. Woof will ride back trying to get out of
the range of whatever is jamming the radios, while Jez will continue
on to the third lake and try to "disable" the devices as she works her
way back.

Long story short, the "devices" are explosives set to go off when the
water reaches a predetermined level, rupturing the dams and sending a
flood of water down the river. Before the PC's can stop it the devices
go off, and the river is in flood and a Woof's pack's ranch and a city
of 50 thousand is right in way.

So, now the rest of the PC's are coming to the rescue, and are going
to fly their ship right into the teeth of a hurricane to get there.

At this point, I can't go into who dammed the streams, or why, but
it's pretty obvious they had something like this in mind when they did
it. Too many of the players are on this list. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 18:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun May 12 17:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <003501c1fa07$b47a17e0$665d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020513000044.249C527990@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/13/02 at 08:51 AM,  "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> said:

>> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>>      For those of you who run darker campaigns, some villain or government
>> could be trying to trigger such an event.  How they would trigger the
>> necessary landslide is naturally up to you, but my first guess would
>> involve several bore holes and timed nuclear detonations.

Actually, I think the idea of using meson cannon would be cooler. The
villain could be set up on the planet some distance away doing
something like "exploring for natural resources" with his "subsurface
sensors", actually a disguised meson cannon. As the fault line got zap
after zap the locals would start to see more frequent tremors, magma
upwelling, and *someone* would have to go investigate, right? <g>

>I've always had problems thinking of suitably megalomanic plans for
>supervillains.  Thanks!

>Supervillains, of course, are found in many genres...

Quite true.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun May 12 17:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <NFBBLDDPILPJIAJFMDJCOENECCAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>
References: <NFBBLDDPILPJIAJFMDJCOENECCAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3cdea4cc.2864059@post.demon.co.uk>

Erich Brackmann <kaukgannir@comcast.net> writes:

>Any large merchant line can have a crew member decide to whack a couple =
of
>(fill in the blanks) and hide the body in a semi-clever manner.  Days =
later
>(long after they've jumped) the authorities find the body.  Repeat on
>several planets over the course of months.  How long before (if ever?) =
the
>various planets start comparing notes?  Even if on a regular route, the
>repetition rate would be low on any given planet.

On the other hand, I bet that would be one of the first routine things
every police department checks.  "Mutilated corpse found near the
starport?  OK, pull the list of ships that were in port at the time
and contact the owners for passenger and crew manifests.   Check to
see if there were any similar killings previously, either here or
elsewhere in the subsector, and cross-check the list of ships that
were around for each of those..."

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 18:08:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun May 12 17:08:51 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <20020510195039.81193.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020510195039.81193.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3cdfb011.5749320@post.demon.co.uk>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:

>extended history of a subsector.  That would involve
>the extended history of the planets.  For example, how
>did that planet go from C766687-9 to A7679AA-D?  When
>and how did the settlement of the GG moons take place?

Well, part of that's easy - the population increased significantly,
advanced their tech level, built a better starport and got taken over
by a dictator who introduced stricter laws.

As for the 10% increase in hydrographics, I can only imagine that
someone collided a very large ice asteroid into the planet.  Or
discovered a vast underground sea and blew the lid off it with a bunch
of nukes.  Or that a massively prolific species was binding up much of
the planet's free water within its bodies, and when the species became
extinct the water was liberated.  Or that pollution from
hydrogen-burning vehicles got totally out of control.  Or that the
planet actually has 65.0000% water, and political pressure was applied
to the IISS to reclassify it as "7" rather than "6" for some
unfathomable reason.  Or just that the IISS survey staff made a
screw-up in the UWP which was later corrected (the most boring
solution).

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 18:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun May 12 17:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <m3it5trno1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <F106yfogkJXrRjbDt3H000123f4@hotmail.com> <t6jtdusaho3prd0h5v3l6ta0rdr6op7sb6@4ax.com> <m3it5trno1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <a61udugi3rm4vr0a9e97ndpk4ca30bviih@4ax.com>

On 12 May 2002 16:45:02 -0600, ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl
<ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

>JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com> writes:
>>
>> Geologists have found that every few centuries there is some minor
>> trigger event which causes saturated water to suddenly well up.  When
>> that water reaches the surface, in one giant burp megatons of CO2 are
>> released into the atmosphere in a matter of minutes.  The geological
>> findings showed evidence of animals killed due to lack of oxygen more
>> than two kilometers away.
>>=20
>> Today, the lake is bordered by a city of more than 100,000, and it's
>> going to happen again.
>
>The solution is, I believe, simple.  Evacuate the city for one day,
>then drop a bunch of depth charges in the lake.  Then just drop depth
>charges once every decade or so to prevent it from happening again.
>
>Or am I missing something?

The problem may also be convincing the locals that this is a prudent
action to take.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 18:31:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Sun May 12 17:31:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <m3vg9vkn2e.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> from "Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>" at May 11, 2002 04:15:21 AM
Message-ID: <200205122327.g4CNRsS02463@localhost.uia.net>

> "Rob Davenport" <rgd@infinet.com> writes:
> > 
> > Well, if many people don't like the chaff, perhaps we could leave 
> > the TML unmoderated and add a list of "pure signal filtered from 
> > the noise" (TML-DSP?).  A list of the 'best of' postings as they 
> > happen - a "cliff's notes" or "TML Nightly News".
> 
> Now that's a good idea.  But I've no idea who the moderator would be.

Yes, an excellent idea. I'd be willing to do it, except that I
think that my criteria for selection might be a tad conservative.
In any case, if somebody wants to start such a sub-list, please
count me in. Perhaps we could shuffle the moderator duties every
month or so.
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 18:31:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Sun May 12 17:31:45 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <20020511044931.3470927A5C@mail.travellercentral.com> from "Eris Reddoch" at May 10, 2002 11:49:33 PM
Message-ID: <200205122324.g4CNOcq02454@localhost.uia.net>

Eris writes:
> Like the _Pilot's Guide to the Drexellar Subsector_ that the Keiths
> did way back when. Maybe something like: A subsector map and UWP's (2
> pages); An overview of the subsector's history (4 or 5 pages); A one,
> two or three page write up, including map, of each mainworld in the
> subsector (40+ pages); A subsector encyclopedia (8+ pages); and a
> directory of important companies and organizations existing in the
> subsector (8+ pages); and get it all into a 64 page book.

I'll second this motion. Heck, put together 16 of them over several
years, and you've got yourself one heck of a series. I would definitely
get the entire set.

My main concern about starting such a project myself was that anything
set in the OTU would end up being non-official and likely a target for
claims of copyright infringement. However, for a company with a
license to produce such material, this seems like an outstanding idea.

In the interesting of making this something more than simply a "me too"
post, please contact me off-list if you'd be interested in working on
something similar for a non-OTU sector. -Jim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 18:34:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun May 12 17:34:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <m3it5trno1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <F106yfogkJXrRjbDt3H000123f4@hotmail.com> <t6jtdusaho3prd0h5v3l6ta0rdr6op7sb6@4ax.com> <m3it5trno1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020513103322.A27959@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> The solution is, I believe, simple.  Evacuate the city for one day,
> then drop a bunch of depth charges in the lake.  Then just drop depth
> charges once every decade or so to prevent it from happening again.
> 
> Or am I missing something?

Yes, you are.  The absolute nightmare of public opinion, media
attention, lawsuits and/or possible violence should even a tiny number
of people be in the area that was supposedly evacuated when you caused
it to be saturated with CO2.

Even though thousands of people might die if you let it go unchecked,
that gets written up as a "natural disaster" rather than deaths
resulting from a deliberate action.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 18:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun May 12 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <200205122327.g4CNRsS02463@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <20020513003649.ABFB327990@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/12/02 at 04:27 PM,  jimv <jimv@uia.net> said:

>> "Rob Davenport" <rgd@infinet.com> writes:
>> > 
>> > Well, if many people don't like the chaff, perhaps we could leave 
>> > the TML unmoderated and add a list of "pure signal filtered from 
>> > the noise" (TML-DSP?).  A list of the 'best of' postings as they 
>> > happen - a "cliff's notes" or "TML Nightly News".
>> 
>> Now that's a good idea.  But I've no idea who the moderator would be.

>Yes, an excellent idea. I'd be willing to do it, except that I think
>that my criteria for selection might be a tad conservative. In any
>case, if somebody wants to start such a sub-list, please count me in.
>Perhaps we could shuffle the moderator duties every month or so.

Have three selectors. Any post that 2+ select is included.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 18:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May 12 17:43:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Meson Quakes? (was Re: Adventure seed - Mega-Tsunamis)
Message-ID: <99.265e1a4b.2a1065f1@aol.com>

The General asks:

>>     For those of you who run darker campaigns, some villain or
>government 
>> could be trying to trigger such an event.  How they would trigger the
>
>> necessary landslide is naturally up to you, but my first guess would
>involve 
>> several bore holes and timed nuclear detonations.
>
>What would the effect be if a Meson weapon was used on a tectonic fault
>line?
>

The short answer, as always, is "it depends"...

Because a meson gun, king of the Traveller naval battlefield, is still small 
potatoes compared to the mass of an entire planet, the use of such a weapon 
to trigger quakes would require extensive advanced knowledge of not just that 
fault, but the entire seismic structure of the planet's crust. This isn't a 
simple friction problem, but is more more akin to adding WD40 to a door's 
hinges and expecting the whole house to run more smoothly as a result...

Firstly, we need to examine the assumption that meson gun decay detonations 
are accompanied not just by a release of energy, but by a significant 
pressure wave as well. I'm not convinced, but others may be. We won't even 
get into the spherical vs statistically smeared detonation argument...

Secondly, assuming that you want to get a fault to *move*, you need to break 
loose whatever is currently holding it back. Note that this is rarely, if 
ever, a single obstinant outcroping that has hooked into the other plate. 
Instead, it is the cumulative friction of nearly every square inch of that 
plate boundary, the interaction of smaller bits of both plates, and the dance 
of the rest of the plates making up the entire crust of the planet.

Upshot is, for *one* shot to make a difference, you'd need a fault that is 
already waiting to go, is historically held back by a fairly short length of 
fault, and then inject the fault with a medium that will generate a shockwave 
when a meson detonation is introduced...

Highly unlikely as an enemy action, certainly. Opportunistic meson fire would 
be much more effective if poured into a sleeping-but-active volcano...

As a remediation technique, or as part of terraforming operations, maybe, but 
highly unlikely on a well-populated planet. The NIMBYs will have you in court 
on Massive EcoDamage charges for years...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 18:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun May 12 17:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Unobtanium in the news
In-Reply-To: <200205121801.GCO01842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200205121801.GCO01842@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020513105723.B27959@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Presumably, the earth is being struck by strangelets on a regular
> basis.

According to the article, about once per year.  That is, if it turns
out that that's what the signals were, rather than statistical
artifacts or something else entirely, and assuming strangelets really
exist.

Now, such objects would probably be useful to a high-tech society like
Traveller, for some purposes we can't imagine today (and even a couple
that we can).

I imagine that they would be extraordinarily difficult to detect in
free space, though I can well imagine that if a tonne-mass strangelet
was detected passing through a planet at a few hundred kilometres per
second, that there might well be enough information gathered to chase
it with a spaceship based on its known vector through the planet.

If such objects are particularly valuable and the system has a fairly
high population, there might be *many* spacecraft involved, and the
rules might be a bit 'bent' as each crew tries to be the one to find
the pin-point object and bring it back before it vanishes into the
immensity of the outer system and interstellar space.  'Finders' might
not necessarily stay 'keepers', especially when you're holding a
near-invisible microscopic speck of matter that masses tons and trying
to keep it in your cargo hold while you accelerate.

I'm sure there's a plot idea in there somewhere ...


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 20:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun May 12 19:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Request
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205122338320.9011-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <000e01c1fa21$ffd74f90$0b01a8c0@duck>

> If you have a subscription to JTAS Online, you should take a look at my
> writeup of the Sacnoth Dominate.

Crap.  After seeing a few of these teasers, I am probably going to
have to subscribe to JTAS Online after all.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 20:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun May 12 19:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020512183508.024f7008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000f01c1fa22$e20a6a50$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Here is a link to some data on Sacnoth I generated a few years back.
> <http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/SW/SW_Family.html>

Thanks for the link.

This brings up a new question for the list: Why are the Sword
Worlds so popular in Traveller fandom?

The PTB have gone out of the way to make the Sword Worlders
childish, petty and boorish.

They are chauvinistic to the extreme, are highly militaristic,
quick to fight and slow to talk.  Plus, they have never
developed the technology above a basic level, even after 1400
years.  And they can't even keep a stable government up without
secret Zhodani help.  And this is from their GOOD press.  :-)

Now don't get me wrong, as I am not complaining.  (If nothing
else, this gives me less competition for writing about the
Daryens.)  But I am curious.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 20:08:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun May 12 19:08:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law
In-Reply-To: <008201c1f7de$4d672410$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEOGDPAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> > What about crimes commited in space?
>>
>> Fall under jurisdiction of the captain.  He falls under jurisdiction
>> of his port of registry.
>>
>> Which could be clear across the Imperium...
>
>Actually, how 'canon' is this?  (not a challenge, just asking for your
>opinion)
>
>I'm asking because this is, unsurprisingly, an issue that crops up fairly
>frequently in the average Traveller game.  By the rules as you state them,
>the starship in question seems to be (with respect to legal issues at
least)
>considered a territorial extension of the world where it was registered.
>Therefore when you board a ship that was registered on Regina/Regina, you
>are effectively stepping onto Regina territory, and subject to the laws and
>politics of Regina.  Even if the ship in question is berthed somewhere in
>the Sol system.  The mind boggles.
>

I suspect that this is not canon at all. It seems more based upon how RL
ships exert legal authority in international waters, where there is no real
law in a meaningful sense aside from the law of the individual countries.
Yes, there are treaties and such, but if someone breaks into my cabin on the
Caribbean Princess and steals my wallet when he gets caught he goes before a
court in the country of registry.

IMTU (and under the variant I wrote in JTAS) such crimes come under
Admiralty law, which is responsible for matters related to trade and
shipping. However, the Admiralty Courts are more interested in points of
ship operation and piracy, than they are in such low crimes as pickpockets
on liners or con men at the cruise ship's casino. Murder does come under
their jurisdiction.

I think that the point most people are overlooking is that a crime on a
liner belonging to a Megacorp is probably going to be handled differently
than one on a Free Trader. The liner is likely to have its own security
service, its own brig, and possibly noble patronage that will allow it to
deal pretty much as it will with people who break its own regulations. In
that case, authority probably does reside in the senior company
representative aboard, who will be the master, unless a company executive is
present.

The Free Trader will probably be lucky to be able to lock a petty criminal
in his cabin until turning the miscreant over to the Navy, IISS or what ever
Imperial governmental authority that they can get to take the worthy off
their hands. If the only representative of the Imperium is the Class II port
director at their next port they might find that the best they can do is
strand the unwanted passenger. Worse they may find ***they*** end up having
to go out of their way to deliver the clod to higher authority, perhaps with
nothing more to show for the trip than a single middle passage voucher and a
dead leg.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 20:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun May 12 19:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <000001c1f9ea$c7a86550$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>
References: <F106yfogkJXrRjbDt3H000123f4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020512190321.009ee500@mindspring.com>

At 02:25 PM 5/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
>         Kinda weird that people are looking for something that's going
>to hit us from space when we've got so many other ways of which to die
>right here on earth...

The difference being, that when the Big One hits California, a lot of 
Californians are going to die.

When a 1 km asteroid hits the Earth, *everybody dies.*  Pasteurized planet.

Except the penguins.  They'll escape.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 20:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Sun May 12 19:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020513003649.ABFB327990@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <200205122327.g4CNRsS02463@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <3CDEF0F8.14028.6966285@localhost>

I wonder if it would be possible to set up something like:

	- a link at the bottom of each post,
	  appended by mailing list software automatically

	- that link, when visited, increments a counter, 
	  it's a vote for that post.

	- when said counter is over X within a day or two, 
	  post gets reposted to best of list.

So if X people like the post and just click the link, it'll get
posted to the 'best of' list.  (It could also keep all kinds of 
stats as well.)  

(Reasoning - keep it very simple to not take up a lot of time; 
spread that time amongst more than one or a few people to 
minimize time further thus encouraging more people to 
participate; automate the mailing list end of things.)

Or, since there's already SpamAssassin at work culling out spam 
based on heuristics, or GNUS for Emacs which 'scores' articles 
based on criteria, perhaps an automated system could be set up
to automatically find 'good' articles and repost them to the best 
of list.  (Good is, of course, subjective and thus debatable, but 
if it's rule-based at some level, that can be tweaked, or 
multiple lists set up for different tolerances/rulesets: the 
"highly filtered list", "filtered" and "unfiltered" [regular 
TML]. 

Rob

On 12 May 2002 at 19:36, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Have three selectors. Any post that 2+ select is included.
> 
> Eris
--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
'Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere is having 
fun.'




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 20:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun May 12 19:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
References: <NFBBLDDPILPJIAJFMDJCOENECCAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net> <3cdea4cc.2864059@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CDF28CF.4B3D33C1@mindspring.com>

Stephen Tempest wrote:

> Erich Brackmann <kaukgannir@comcast.net> writes:
>
> >Any large merchant line can have a crew member decide to whack a couple of
> >(fill in the blanks) and hide the body in a semi-clever manner.  Days later
> >(long after they've jumped) the authorities find the body.  Repeat on
> >several planets over the course of months.  How long before (if ever?) the
> >various planets start comparing notes?  Even if on a regular route, the
> >repetition rate would be low on any given planet.
>
> On the other hand, I bet that would be one of the first routine things
> every police department checks.  "Mutilated corpse found near the
> starport?  OK, pull the list of ships that were in port at the time
> and contact the owners for passenger and crew manifests.   Check to
> see if there were any similar killings previously, either here or
> elsewhere in the subsector, and cross-check the list of ships that
> were around for each of those..."
>
> Stephen

<snip>

This ignores fast cheap transportation. At TTL 9 a person can get on a maglev
and be many miles away in a hour. I believe you'll be able to get far enough,
quick enough to not make it a primary consideration even to TTL 5. Unless they
have to be killed moments before lift off. I posted earlier about an NPC I'm
having commit murders in this fashion. On each world I roll for hassle by LL. If
he is hassled I make it a difficult task ( 11+ on 2d6 ) to connect him to the
crime. ( The man is a genius after all, and doesn't want to get caught. ) If
they fail, which they have so far, I get him for," improper use of a fork while
dining" or some such. I went back over my notes and he has killed 31 people in 2
years over 2 subsectors. He isn't using the same method to kill each time ( That
pesky genius again ). As a doctor I have let him have access to drugs and many
have just been classified as OD's. Some have been horror stories for young cops.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.
                             -Unknown



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 20:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun May 12 19:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial law
In-Reply-To: <008201c1f7de$4d672410$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <20512.195954.6t7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Robert wrote:
>> > What about crimes commited in space?
>>
>> Fall under jurisdiction of the captain.  He falls under jurisdiction
>> of his port of registry.
>>
>> Which could be clear across the Imperium...
>
> Actually, how 'canon' is this?  (not a challenge, just asking for your
> opinion)
>
> I'm asking because this is, unsurprisingly, an issue that crops up fairly
> frequently in the average Traveller game.  By the rules as you state them,
> the starship in question seems to be (with respect to legal issues at least)
> considered a territorial extension of the world where it was registered.
> Therefore when you board a ship that was registered on Regina/Regina, you
> are effectively stepping onto Regina territory, and subject to the laws and
> politics of Regina.  Even if the ship in question is berthed somewhere in
> the Sol system.  The mind boggles.

Nope. Only when "in transit" just as with ships and airliners *now*.

Once a ship enters teritorrial waters it's subject to the laws of that
nation. Not sure what demarcation point is for aircraft.

But this is *firmly* based on real world practice.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 21:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May 12 20:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
Message-ID: <11e.108d64b9.2a1089a5@aol.com>

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:
> This brings up a new question for the list: Why are the Sword
> Worlds so popular in Traveller fandom?

I've noticed something similar about the Solomani, actually. Classic
Traveller materials portray the Solomani as very distasteful. Yet there
seems to be a consistent thread of admiration for them in the fan
community, a feeling that they need to be "rehabilitated."

Not that I'm complaining about that, since it's grist for the mill of new
books. It sometimes seems odd to me, though.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_11e.108d64b9.2a1089a5_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>mjwest@caddocourt.com writes:
<BR>&gt; This brings up a new question for the list: Why are the Sword
<BR>&gt; Worlds so popular in Traveller fandom?
<BR>
<BR>I've noticed something similar about the Solomani, actually. Classic
<BR>Traveller materials portray the Solomani as very distasteful. Yet there
<BR>seems to be a consistent thread of admiration for them in the fan
<BR>community, a feeling that they need to be "rehabilitated."
<BR>
<BR>Not that I'm complaining about that, since it's grist for the mill of new
<BR>books. It sometimes seems odd to me, though.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_11e.108d64b9.2a1089a5_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 21:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun May 12 20:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Law
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205130003520.9011-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEOIDPAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>'Child endangerment'? What makes you think the Imperium would have the
>>concept of child endangerment at all?
>></Quote>
>>
>>Because the dominant species of the Imperium are all High K. They invest
many
>>years in the raising of their offspring.
>
And I'm sure that anyone who damages the child of a noble will be a very
unhappy camper. Now the child of that grot herder will probably be another
case. There is no reason at all that the Imperium should have "equal
protection under the law."  As I recall the concept wasn't even seriously
considered on Old Terra until two hundred years ago

Take ancient Rome. One law for citizens, another for barbarians. One law for
patrician, one for equites, one for Plebeians. This has been the most common
case throughout history.

>><Quote>
>>>Furthermore any definition must be simple enough to be applicable on some
>>>backwater with limited access to high tech equipment and must be
>>>applicable only after a limited encounter with a new species.
>>
Why? One of the reasons the Imperium is a government of men not laws is
because there can not be any such definitions. It will be up to the man or
woman on the scene to make the decision. Hopefully they'll get it right most
of the time. If not, I suspect that a one thousand year old empire will take
the long view and figure if a mistake is made that there's time to clean it
up later, after all it's not like a few non-citizens one way or the other
matter in the long run.

>>IMNSHO the Emperor will always consider it important because the last
thing
>>you want to do is antagonise someone more powerful than you by accident.
>

This is why you have a big and powerful Navy and the production of 11,000
worlds to use against any enemy. I doubt the Emperor much considers
antagonizing anyone this side of the Zhodani as a problem.

>><Quote>
>>>...then it is deep trouble because all law must be based on the
>>>ability to define who or what is protected.
>>
Sure. Imperial citizens are protected, as is anyone the Imperium says is
protected. Nothing to say that someone or something that was unprotected
yesterday won't be protected today. Or the other way around. It true that
the powerful, the rich, the influential will require stability, but only for
themselves. The stability of the minor players will be entirely
uninteresting to them.

>>>...With no universal definition of murder there can be no universal
>>>definition of property...
>>
>>That one went right over my head. I don't see it and I don't see the need
>>for a universal definition of property for that matter.
>>
A universal definition of property is important for business to thrive. But
only as far as the Imperium cares, or thinks it's important to the Imperium.
So the ownership of ships and cargo is important. Even the ownership of real
property, if it's around the starport. The question is: How much does the
ownership of property matter if the owners are **not** major players? Does
the Imperium really care if farmer Brown keeps his farm or if
Giant-Mega-Food Corp takes it? Heck, they might help Giant-Mega-Food Corp
get the land if there's a few nobles on the board of directors.

>>>...and I leave it to your imagination where that might lead.
>>
>>Please elucidate.
>
>>OK. When a character purchases a starship he borrows the money from the
bank.
>>The starship is property and the bank owns it. But who owns the bank and
how
>>does the bank decide that the species to which the character belongs can
be
>>lent money? On our world that's not a difficult question because there are
a
>>limited number of sapient species and the non-human ones are too
intelligent
>>to get mixed up with banks. In the Imperium however there has to be a
clear
>>definition of who (what?) can actually own property or nobody will know
where
>>they stand.
>
Who says just anyone can buy a starship? Don't forget in CT almost all of
the PC's are either ex-Imperial Military or graduates of merchant academies.
No one said farmer Brown is going to find someone to lend him money to buy a
ship. For that matter while there seems to be a number of Vargr, Aslan and
various members of Humaniti who own ships, I don't recall seeing a lot of
ships owned by members of minor species.

>
>>More importantly that definition must be universal because if it is not a
>>(for example) female starship owner could land in the Misogyny of Blumblat
>>and discovers because women can't hold property her starship now belongs
to
>>the Grand Plonker himself.
>
I suspect that the bank holding the loan might want the local noble to take
a hand. I suspect the Sector Duchess might ask the Imperial Marines to have
a nice talk with the Grand Plonker.



Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 21:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun May 12 20:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
In-Reply-To: <000f01c1fa22$e20a6a50$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020512183508.024f7008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020512232748.00cfa740@192.168.0.1>

At 09:07 PM 5/12/2002 -0500, Mike West wrote:
> > Here is a link to some data on Sacnoth I generated a few years back.
> > <http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/SW/SW_Family.html>
>Thanks for the link.
>This brings up a new question for the list: Why are the Sword
>Worlds so popular in Traveller fandom?

H. Beam Piper. His book "Space Viking" is the basis for the Sword Worlds.
His works obviously influenced Marc Miller when he was writing Traveller.
E.C. Tubb's "Dumarest of Terra" series was also an obvious influence.
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/travfic.html>



----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun May 12 20:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
In-Reply-To: <11e.108d64b9.2a1089a5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001301c1fa30$a4f92490$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of JFZeigler@aol.com
>mjwest@caddocourt.com writes: 
>> This brings up a new question for the list: Why are the Sword 
>> Worlds so popular in Traveller fandom? 
>
>I've noticed something similar about the Solomani, actually. Classic 
>Traveller materials portray the Solomani as very distasteful. Yet there 
>seems to be a consistent thread of admiration for them in the fan 
>community, a feeling that they need to be "rehabilitated." 

Actually, I was going to comment that right after the Sword
Worlds, comes the Solomani in popularity.  I didn't mention them,
however, as the Solomani have one major, huge draw over all
other races in Traveller: they are us.  No matter what type
of slime-bastards they are, they are still us.

Plus, there are plenty of reformist Solomani in the mix, too.
Sword Worlders are just Sword Worlders.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 21:46:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Sun May 12 20:46:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020512232748.00cfa740@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEOEDNAA.tml@jtas.org>

No influence, more like. The names were taken from Space Viking, but nothing
else. Probably can't get permission to use any of that great background.
Someone at GDW just ran out of original names for planets and swiped Piper's
:p

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
>
> H. Beam Piper. His book "Space Viking" is the basis for the Sword Worlds.
> His works obviously influenced Marc Miller when he was writing Traveller.
> E.C. Tubb's "Dumarest of Terra" series was also an obvious influence.
> <http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/travfic.html>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 21:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun May 12 20:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEOEDNAA.tml@jtas.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020512232748.00cfa740@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020512234929.01b78908@192.168.0.1>

At 11:47 PM 5/12/2002 -0400, Colin wrote:
>No influence, more like. The names were taken from Space Viking, but nothing
>else. Probably can't get permission to use any of that great background.
>Someone at GDW just ran out of original names for planets and swiped Piper's
>:p

Hmmm....let's see feudal technocracy, armies travelling in grav vehicles 
and fighting with submachine guns.
Nobles with big honking handguns...

Sounds like Traveller to me.


> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
> >
> > H. Beam Piper. His book "Space Viking" is the basis for the Sword Worlds.
> > His works obviously influenced Marc Miller when he was writing Traveller.
> > E.C. Tubb's "Dumarest of Terra" series was also an obvious influence.
> > <http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/TRAV/travfic.html>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine.
Vikings? There ain't no Vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 21:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun May 12 20:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <3CDEF0F8.14028.6966285@localhost>
References: <200205122327.g4CNRsS02463@localhost.uia.net> <20020513003649.ABFB327990@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CDEF0F8.14028.6966285@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020513135430.A28322@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rob Davenport wrote:
> I wonder if it would be possible to set up something like:
> 
> 	- a link at the bottom of each post,
> 	  appended by mailing list software automatically

Only if you want automatic conversion of plaintext messages to HTML,
which then (correctly) won't be displayed by a number of subscribers'
email clients.


> (Reasoning - keep it very simple to not take up a lot of time; 

In my case (most of the time): I'd have to fire up my browser, then
cut-and-paste the URL into the location input box.

At other times, I'd have to mark the post for later attention, so when
I read my mail on a computer that *has* a web browser (probably five
hours later or so), I can open up the previously-marked messages,
start up the browser, then cut-and-paste the URL into the location box
for each one.


> Or, since there's already SpamAssassin at work culling out spam 
> based on heuristics,
[...]
> (Good is, of course, subjective and thus debatable, but if it's
> rule-based at some level,

It's not.  There's a *huge* difference between searching for key
phrases like "$$$MAKE MONEY FAST$$$", individually-tuned score files
based on subject line text or author name, and the requirements of a
shared mailing list which could include just about *anything* in a
message and still be a highly regarded on-topic message.  I almost
missed the highly amusing Traveller variant on the "Chinese Forklift"
spam as it was.  Having it automatically filtered out of the mailing
list for everyone would be a Bad Thing, IMO.

It's a "Hard AI" problem.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 22:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun May 12 21:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <3CDEF0F8.14028.6966285@localhost>
References: <200205122327.g4CNRsS02463@localhost.uia.net> <20020513003649.ABFB327990@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CDEF0F8.14028.6966285@localhost>
Message-ID: <3odudu4ro68vdsffi717p35hl3i7ai22n7@4ax.com>

On Sun, 12 May 2002 22:47:20 -0400, "Rob Davenport" <rgd@infinet.com>
wrote:

>I wonder if it would be possible to set up something like:
>
>	- a link at the bottom of each post,
>	  appended by mailing list software automatically
>
>	- that link, when visited, increments a counter,=20
>	  it's a vote for that post.
>
>	- when said counter is over X within a day or two,=20
>	  post gets reposted to best of list.
>
>So if X people like the post and just click the link, it'll get
>posted to the 'best of' list.  (It could also keep all kinds of=20
>stats as well.) =20
>
>(Reasoning - keep it very simple to not take up a lot of time;=20
>spread that time amongst more than one or a few people to=20
>minimize time further thus encouraging more people to=20
>participate; automate the mailing list end of things.)

This is, I think, a really great ideal.  Simple, probably
implementable by a Perl script (and I'll bow to those more proficient
than myself in that regard), and easy for the list participants to
help with.  All it would take is appending an tracking code (possibly
the already extant mail ID) to the bottom of each message in the link.

One downside I can see is that there would be an inherent delay before
the highly ranked messages were transmitted to the readers of that
list.  If the messages are indeed "best of", I'm not certain that the
active participants of those discussions in the main list would
welcome follow-ups to the "best of" filters days after the original
post was made and discussed.  Might be some resentment there.

And then there is the possibility of some participants actively
working against this system.  As was evidenced by the bitter
disagreement regarding the formation and use of the TML-Chat list,
users who disagreed with this new practice could simply "vote" for
every single message to be included in the "best of" list.  Given the
skills present on the list, it would probably be possible to automate
this.  Depending upon the vote levels selected for inclusion in the
"best of" list, it might only take a few dissidents to make it
ineffective.

If it doesn't already exist in some form and the objections I have
noted above can be resolved, this could be quite the gift to the
mailing list community.

>Or, since there's already SpamAssassin at work culling out spam=20
>based on heuristics, or GNUS for Emacs which 'scores' articles=20
>based on criteria, perhaps an automated system could be set up
>to automatically find 'good' articles and repost them to the best=20
>of list.  (Good is, of course, subjective and thus debatable, but=20
>if it's rule-based at some level, that can be tweaked, or=20
>multiple lists set up for different tolerances/rulesets: the=20
>"highly filtered list", "filtered" and "unfiltered" [regular=20
>TML].=20

I would have less faith in a rule-based system of ranking.  While I'm
quite tolerant in this context with a SpamAssassin possibly removing
some wheat along with the chaff, I don't think that there is
sufficient commonality among the quality posts to comfortably fit in a
simple rule set.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 22:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun May 12 21:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TL12 Minnie Me class Micro Trader
Message-ID: <3CDF3DCE.5C237176@mail.cswnet.com>

Minnie Me class Micro Trader
A 1/2-16212R1-030000-10001-0 Mcr48.1 100dt
one battery			Crew:2 TL11
Cargo: 37dt Fuel:22 EP:2 Agility:1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops only
2-4dt crew staterooms

Architects Fee:MCr.0481 Cost in Quantity:Mcr38.480

Built at AMV's Secret shipyard/depot located somewhere near
Vicant/Vilis.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 22:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Sun May 12 21:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020512234929.01b78908@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEOFDNAA.tml@jtas.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
>
> Hmmm....let's see feudal technocracy, armies travelling in grav vehicles
> and fighting with submachine guns.
> Nobles with big honking handguns...
>
> Sounds like Traveller to me.

Right. It's just the people, the motives, the economies, their military
dominance, the space vikings, the jump drives, the heavy use of nukes, the
slaves, the nobles, the military tactics, the technological collapse around
them and the typical personalities that are so completely different.

Hmmm... let's see, powerful empire, megacorporations, police in grav
vehicles and fighting with slug-throwers.
Bureaucrats and starport bars...

Sounds like The Stainless Steel Rat to me.

Sorry, not meaning to be nasty. I just think that anyone who has only the
Sword Worlds of Traveller as a reference will have little idea of what the
Space Viking setting is like, that's all.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 22:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May 12 21:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Request
In-Reply-To: <000e01c1fa21$ffd74f90$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <000e01c1fa21$ffd74f90$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <m3it5sznfv.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> writes:
> 
> Crap.  After seeing a few of these teasers, I am probably going to
> have to subscribe to JTAS Online after all.

It's really worth it.  Loren does an excellent job.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ha Mashiyach qam!  Ken hoo qam!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 22:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May 12 21:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
In-Reply-To: <11e.108d64b9.2a1089a5@aol.com>
References: <11e.108d64b9.2a1089a5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3elggzncp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

JFZeigler@aol.com writes:
>
> I've noticed something similar about the Solomani, actually. Classic
> Traveller materials portray the Solomani as very distasteful.  Yet
> there seems to be a consistent thread of admiration for them in the
> fan community, a feeling that they need to be "rehabilitated."

Well, I've always somewhat admired the basic Solomani idea.  Solomani
_are_ objectively better than Vilani.  Otherwise a tiny pissant little
world couldn't have conquered the entire First Imperium.

It's the Solomani Party I dislike, the authoritarian fascist police
state.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Resurrexit!  Vere Resurrexit!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 22:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun May 12 21:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020513135430.A28322@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200205122327.g4CNRsS02463@localhost.uia.net> <20020513003649.ABFB327990@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CDEF0F8.14028.6966285@localhost> <20020513135430.A28322@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ttgudu4k3jnq2ane2eehcj2m71p7aoi4kn@4ax.com>

On Mon, 13 May 2002 13:54:30 +1000, Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

>Rob Davenport wrote:
>> I wonder if it would be possible to set up something like:
>>=20
>> 	- a link at the bottom of each post,
>> 	  appended by mailing list software automatically
>
>Only if you want automatic conversion of plaintext messages to HTML,
>which then (correctly) won't be displayed by a number of subscribers'
>email clients.

No.  URLs can easily be viewed as plain test (as the link presently
included at the bottom of every TML message shows).

I see from your headers that you use Mutt.

=46rom the Mutt FAQ (http://www.fefe.de/muttfaq/faq.html):  "...  Mutt
can open a web browser for you with an URL from the mail body (the
functionality has been moved to the external program urlview which is
available at the same place where you got Mutt itself)."

>> (Reasoning - keep it very simple to not take up a lot of time;=20
>
>In my case (most of the time): I'd have to fire up my browser, then
>cut-and-paste the URL into the location input box.
>
>At other times, I'd have to mark the post for later attention, so when
>I read my mail on a computer that *has* a web browser (probably five
>hours later or so), I can open up the previously-marked messages,
>start up the browser, then cut-and-paste the URL into the location box
>for each one.

Of course, as above, you would need to be on a system with web access;
a necessary drawback.  If you activated the ability mentioned in the
Mutt FAQ, it might be much less inconvenient for you.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 23:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun May 12 22:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Avenging Aphid
In-Reply-To: <3CDD3A43.23024.9627A9@localhost>
References: <3CDDA835.6713.84F9F70@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CDFF34E.28761.509EA9@localhost>

On 11 May 2002, at 15:35, timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:

> Andrew
> 
> I took a look at this since all my Traveller is in storage I thought
> cool I could use this but at last I am running win98 is there any way
> to get this version or something I can use?

Please excuse me (I'm suffering with a lerge and so full of drugs 
my head is swimming). HGS will run on win 98 (and: 95, ME, NT4, 
2000 and XP).

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 23:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun May 12 22:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020512190321.009ee500@mindspring.com>
References: <000001c1f9ea$c7a86550$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>
Message-ID: <3CDFF5BB.18449.5A1625@localhost>

On 12 May 2002, at 19:05, Douglas Berry wrote:

> When a 1 km asteroid hits the Earth, *everybody dies.*  Pasteurized
> planet.

> Except the penguins.  They'll escape.

Don't ya hate it when that happens


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 23:20:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun May 12 22:20:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
In-Reply-To: <11e.108d64b9.2a1089a5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3CDFF5BB.30978.5A1625@localhost>

On 12 May 2002, at 23:14, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:

> I've noticed something similar about the Solomani, actually. Classic
> Traveller materials portray the Solomani as very distasteful. Yet
> there seems to be a consistent thread of admiration for them in the
> fan community, a feeling that they need to be "rehabilitated."

Citzen Zeigler, you have obviously been mislead by the corrupt 
propoganda of the Vilani Imperium and their megacorp overlords. If 
you will just accompany me to the local SolSec office, I'm sure we 
can get this all straightened out in no time.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 23:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun May 12 22:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEOFDNAA.tml@jtas.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020512234929.01b78908@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513012304.00cbb5b0@192.168.0.1>

At 12:22 AM 5/13/2002 -0400, Colin wrote:
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
> > Hmmm....let's see feudal technocracy, armies travelling in grav vehicles
> > and fighting with submachine guns.
> > Nobles with big honking handguns...
> > Sounds like Traveller to me.
>Right. It's just the people, the motives, the economies, their military
>dominance, the space vikings, the jump drives, the heavy use of nukes, the
>slaves, the nobles, the military tactics, the technological collapse around
>them and the typical personalities that are so completely different.
>Hmmm... let's see, powerful empire, megacorporations, police in grav
>vehicles and fighting with slug-throwers.
>Bureaucrats and starport bars...
>Sounds like The Stainless Steel Rat to me.
>Sorry, not meaning to be nasty.

Well, count to ten before posting next time.

>I just think that anyone who has only the
>Sword Worlds of Traveller as a reference will have little idea of what the
>Space Viking setting is like, that's all.

Which is why I didn't list it as the only reference when I mentioned it's 
influence.
Traveller gets a lot more from E.C. Tubb's Dumarest of Terra series (which 
was the other reference I listed), but given the context of the original 
question, "Space Viking" needed to be mentioned.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else 
wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 12 23:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Sun May 12 22:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Comics
References: <20020511072905.310EB27A6E@mail.travellercentral.com> <728qduouge88o819gosb5ii1p19db8srq5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3CDF4FD9.40801@yarranet.net.au>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> On Sat, 11 May 2002 00:28:03 -0700, "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
> wrote:
> 
>>You know, this is weird coming from me because I'm not into comics,
>>but I'd like to see a strip, or of comic books following the
>>adventures of a band of Travellers.  Heck, take a well known old
>>adventure like "The Traveller Adventure" and present is as a series of
>>comic books


White Dwarf had "The Travellers" which ran in issues from the early 40's 
to the 60's or 70's. For one of the stories they did "Shadows" and had 
the running joke about knowing how to take off properly by reading it 
off the back of a postcard bought at the Starport.
Mark Harrison, who is now doing work for 2000AD, was the writer and artist.
I'm missing the parts from White Dwarf's 47 and 63.
(And yes Andy Brick I haven't forgotten about our swap, I've just been 
slack but I only received my copies of The Travellers back last week 
after all this time)


I can also remember some sort of Traveller comic that came out at about 
the same time as T4, can anybody else provide more information?

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 00:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun May 12 23:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <ttgudu4k3jnq2ane2eehcj2m71p7aoi4kn@4ax.com>
References: <200205122327.g4CNRsS02463@localhost.uia.net> <20020513003649.ABFB327990@mail.travellercentral.com> <3CDEF0F8.14028.6966285@localhost> <20020513135430.A28322@freeman.little-possums.net> <ttgudu4k3jnq2ane2eehcj2m71p7aoi4kn@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020513165851.A28724@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> From the Mutt FAQ (http://www.fefe.de/muttfaq/faq.html):  "...  Mutt
> can open a web browser for you with an URL from the mail body (the
> functionality has been moved to the external program urlview which is
> available at the same place where you got Mutt itself)."

Yep, just a simple matter of wading through the 8-13 URLs present in
most posts to the TML and deciding which one (based only on the URL
text) is the "vote for a good post" one, rather than "unsubscribe from
TML".  That is, assuming I have a web browser and currently open
internet connection available to go to any site at all.

I'm not totally against the idea, just not in favour of it.  I
wouldn't trust the aggregated votes in any way at all.

If someone else wants to add a link at the bottom of my posts for
voting, go for it.  If someone else wants to write a Perl script to
visit the voting links in every mail from a random number of IP
addresses, they're welcome to do so as well.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 03:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon May 13 02:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT request for help - need story identified
In-Reply-To: <E175O0c-0005gk-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20513.004728.7n6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>
>> Okay, I'm going to try to call on the collective knowledge of the TML
>> to help out a friend of mine.  She's trying to identify a story that
>> was either edited or written by Asimov.  Her description of the story
>> follows.  Can anyone help us ID this story?
>> 
>> ******************************************************************
>> 
>> Once upon a time (in the early 80's) I read an anthology of sf short
>> stories which were either written or edited (forget which) by Asimov.
>> My hometown library had the book... and I've never seen it again. 
>
> <snip description>
>  
> I've never read this, but if anyone knows what it is, tell me too.  It 
> sounds like something I'd really enjoy reading.

I remember reading it. My bet is that it was published in Asimov's
*magazine* back when I was still getting it. Which means it was early 80s.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 03:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Mon May 13 02:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
References: <000001c1f9ea$c7a86550$0300a8c0@acheronlv426> <3CDFF5BB.18449.5A1625@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CDF8ED0.1070403@gmx.net>

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

>On 12 May 2002, at 19:05, Douglas Berry wrote:
>
>>When a 1 km asteroid hits the Earth, *everybody dies.*  Pasteurized
>>planet.
>>
>
>>Except the penguins.  They'll escape.
>>
>
>Don't ya hate it when that happens
>
But can any of them whistle "The Star Spangled Banner" while doing a 
double back flip through a hoop?

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 05:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon May 13 04:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <3CDF8ED0.1070403@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3CE04BEF.4733.1AAD165@localhost>

On 13 May 2002, at 20:00, Robert Houghton wrote:

> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> >On 12 May 2002, at 19:05, Douglas Berry wrote:

> >>When a 1 km asteroid hits the Earth, *everybody dies.*  Pasteurized
> >>planet.

> >>Except the penguins.  They'll escape.

> >Don't ya hate it when that happens

> But can any of them whistle "The Star Spangled Banner" while doing a
> double back flip through a hoop?

Only the Adeles
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 07:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon May 13 06:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Annual Maintenance
Message-ID: <F73GykBbKP7Ie8tlMaz0001315a@hotmail.com>

From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
If a
>world with sufficiently high TL can build ships regardless of its starport
>type, surely it can perform maintenance too, regardless of its starport
>class.


Mr. Rancke-Madsen,

     So, we can add every world of sufficient TL to our maintenance mpa of 
the Marches, if...

     "So to begin with it is ALL TL 14/15 worlds (with sufficient
population) that can perform maintenance."

     ... they have enough bodies and...

     "Then, it is unclear if you need a TL 15 world to maintain a TL 15 
ship. Some rules says you do (I think it was TCS) but other rules says you 
can maintain any ship at any Class A starport."

     ... either regular shipments of naval-level stores and Unobtanium(tm) 
or the ability to manufacture the same.

     "...naval bases definitely qualify to perform maintenance regardless of 
local TL or starport class."

     Yep, that's why I added bases and dpeots to the maintenance map.

     "Fourth, we don't know the exact composition of the IN's auxiliary 
ships. One obvious concept is repair vessels of various kinds as well as 
deep space shipyards, movable or not."

     This is, IMHO, the biggest "hole" in Our Olde Game's 57th century naval 
description.  We have nothing but WAGs about what support vessels and 
supplies actually require, although there are many references in canon to 
supply lines and the like.  (IIRC, the Julian War hinged on the Julian's 
ability to smash the Imperial's rear area staging and supply bases.)

     "You could take that as evidence for the existence of 
repair/maintenance vessels. The situation you describe is so silly that 
there must be another explanation."

     Silly indeed, almost Whipsnadian in it's scope.  The trick now will be 
how to model what we need.
     Beltstrike gives us a dTon per man per time period requirement for life 
support stores.  Spare parts and other fungibles are not mentioned anywhere 
that I'm aware of however.
     TCS and GT:Starports(?) give us yard capabilities as a factor of 
population levels.  Using TCS strictly as written produces in some rather 
squirrelly results.  I only need point to Tenalphi...
     I assume the TCS mechanism only allows us to calculate the amount of 
work a complete (or nearly complete) society can divert towards ship 
building and maintenance.  That is, the populations in TCS are doing and 
making everything else that populations do and make, and the repair and 
construction rates are merely what can be directed towards the business of 
the shipyard.
     This population-work linkage doesn't allow me to model IN support 
vessels (tenders, dry docks, etc.) or forward repair bases (such as those 
very capable facilities staged across the Pacific during WW2).
     Hopefully, Mr. Dougherty's GT:Imperial Navy will address this problem.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S.  I also hope Mr. Dougherty avoids my personal naval description pet 
peeve; that classification equates size, i.e. destroyers are 5K tons and so 
forth.  I've seen so many "BBs are X dTons, CAs are Y dTons, etc., etc." 
ship lists floating around that, but for the copious amount of alcohol, my 
blood would boil.
     Classification equates mission.  Size depends primarily on TL.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 07:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon May 13 06:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
Message-ID: <F167zQt1aP5N1lf8e460000615f@hotmail.com>

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Solomani _are_ objectively better than Vilani.  Otherwise a tiny 
pissant little world couldn't have conquered the entire First Imperium."


Mr. Uhl,

     The Terran Confederation didn't conquer the First Imperium.  Or at 
least, they didn't do it in the manner that is accepted as the truth in the 
57th century.
     I'm currently penning a take on the Interstellar Wars that will reveal 
the current interpretation of that era as nothing more than a tissue of 
lies, the residue of political propaganda three millenia old.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S.  I can't wait to hear the squeals!

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 07:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon May 13 06:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
References: <20020513031605.9B79D279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008101c1fa83$9a134b20$915d8690@computer>

> From: JFZeigler@aol.com
> I've noticed something similar about the Solomani, actually. Classic
> Traveller materials portray the Solomani as very distasteful. Yet there
> seems to be a consistent thread of admiration for them in the fan
> community, a feeling that they need to be "rehabilitated."

I had a bit of fun a few years ago with the Vargr.  I had always written
them off as boring and inept, until I sat down and started looking at their
strengths.  Now I'm very fond of them.

I think the same method could be applied to the Sword Worlders.  There has
been a rather one-sided presentation of them in various sources.  There is
obviously more to them than that.  One of the keys might be to look at the
Imperial worlds that have culturally Sword Worlder populations.  You know,
minor worlds like Vilis.

As for the Solomani - well, the Impies aren't exactly wonderful people
themselves.  Besides, at some level the Solomani are still "us", and the
thought that "we" would somehow become "them" is a little disturbing...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 07:36:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon May 13 06:36:40 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
References: <20020513031605.9B79D279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008201c1fa83$9aaa5b00$915d8690@computer>

> From: jimv <jimv@uia.net>
> In the interesting of making this something more than simply a "me too"
> post, please contact me off-list if you'd be interested in working on
> something similar for a non-OTU sector. -Jim

The thing with any non-OTU project is that getting two or more people to
agree on a vision of what the sector would look like is a bit of a
cat-herding exercise.  I'm working on a sector myself at the moment, and
while I have intentionally kept it as "Generic Book 3" in feel as possible,
it still has a very personal flavour.

(It's a "traders from two pocket empires competing in a patch of non-aligned
space" setting.  It's the quirks that make it "mine".)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 07:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon May 13 06:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <m3it5trno1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020513135058.11994.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com> writes:
<... snippit about CO2 bomb in lake ...> 
>
> The solution is, I believe, simple.  Evacuate the
> city for one day,
> then drop a bunch of depth charges in the lake. 
> Then just drop depth
> charges once every decade or so to prevent it from
> happening again.
> 
> Or am I missing something?

Well, I don't think I would use the term simple when
refering to evacuating 100,000 citizens.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 07:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon May 13 06:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Another plot hook
References: <20020513131505.1E24D279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00b101c1fa86$b43ddf80$915d8690@computer>

Here's a plot hook from the Guardian newspaper in the UK.  IMHO, it's a gem.
I can just see it happening in a Falkenberg or Hammer's Slammers story.

This is the story.  I've chopped irrelevant stuff (most of it!).

---------------------------------------
Opec chief warned Chavez about coup
Greg Palast
Monday May 13, 2002
The Guardian

The Venezuelan president, Hugo Chavez, had advance warning of last month's
coup attempt against him from the secretary general of Opec, Ali Rodriguez,
allowing him to prepare an extraordinary plan which saved both his
government and his life, an investigation has revealed.
Mr Rodriguez, who is Venezuelan and a former leftwing guerrilla, telephoned
Mr Chavez from the Vienna headquarters of the Organisation of Petroleum
Exporting Countries, of which Venezuela is an important member, several days
before the attempted overthrow in April.
...
The warning - revealed by a Newsnight investigation to be shown on BBC2
tonight - explains the swift and safe return of Mr Chavez to power within
two days of his April 12 capture by military officers under the direction of
the coup leader, Pedro Carmona.

Until now, it was unclear why Mr Carmona - who had declared himself
president - and the military chiefs who backed the coup surrendered without
firing a shot.

The answer to the mystery, Newsnight was told by a Chavez insider, is that
several hundred pro-Chavez troops were hidden in secret corridors under
Miraflores, the presidential palace.

Juan Barreto, a leader of Mr Chavez's party in the national assembly, was
with Mr Chavez when he was under siege.

Mr Barreto said that Jose Baduel, chief of the paratroop division loyal to
Mr Chavez, had waited until Mr Carmona was inside Miraflores.

Mr Baduel then phoned Mr Carmona to tell him that, with troops virtually
under his chair, he was as much a hostage as Mr Chavez. He gave Mr Carmona
24 hours to return Mr Chavez alive.

Escape from Miraflores was impossible for Mr Carmona. The building was
surrounded by hundreds of thousands of pro-Chavez demonstrators who, alerted
by a sympathetic foreign affairs minister, had marched on it from the
Ranchos, the poorest barrios.
...
--------------------------------------

Ain't that a pearl?  It's so Traveller.  It could even support two PC
groups.

"Our Heroes" are mercs on contract to a planetary government, which has
enemies.  Another group of "Our Heroes" are merchants.  They get hired to
carry the tip-off to the world, hopefully arriving in time.  _Obviously_
their journey would be uneventful - this is Traveller after all.  Then, of
course, the other PCs get involved.

I'm not sure exactly how to handle it, but ideally it would be an
opportunity for a surprise ending, as the concealed troops pop out like
rabbits pulled from a hat.  It might actually work better as a short story,
rather than a scenario, unfortunately.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 07:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon May 13 06:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020512190321.009ee500@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020513135853.66125.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Except the penguins.  They'll escape.
> 

That's not fair, the penguins always escape. To quote:

"Don't you people ever die?" - Toad


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 08:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon May 13 07:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
In-Reply-To: <008101c1fa83$9a134b20$915d8690@computer>
References: <20020513031605.9B79D279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513101620.00b8cc80@urbin.net>

At 11:30 PM 5/13/02 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:
> > From: JFZeigler@aol.com
> > I've noticed something similar about the Solomani, actually. Classic
> > Traveller materials portray the Solomani as very distasteful. Yet there
> > seems to be a consistent thread of admiration for them in the fan
> > community, a feeling that they need to be "rehabilitated."
>I had a bit of fun a few years ago with the Vargr.  I had always written
>them off as boring and inept, until I sat down and started looking at their
>strengths.  Now I'm very fond of them.\

Oh ya...double that when you move outta monkeyboy space and deep into Vargr 
space.

It's big, and not in the it's a long walk to the chemist type big, but 
really big.

TL 16 worlds, vargr breeded for psionic ability, others so they can take on 
a male Aslan in hand to hand.
Woe to you if you run across a really, really charismatic leader with jihad 
on his mind...

>I think the same method could be applied to the Sword Worlders.  There has
>been a rather one-sided presentation of them in various sources.  There is
>obviously more to them than that.  One of the keys might be to look at the
>Imperial worlds that have culturally Sword Worlder populations.  You know,
>minor worlds like Vilis.

Vilis is fun.  Heavy Industry world. It's been a favorite place for me have 
low social status Marines come from.
Innercity gangers who were given the choice of 'enlisting' or pulling a 
long stretch at a work farm on Garda-Vilis.
The Sword Worlder subpopulation is a nice touch.


>As for the Solomani - well, the Impies aren't exactly wonderful people
>themselves.  Besides, at some level the Solomani are still "us", and the
>thought that "we" would somehow become "them" is a little disturbing...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 08:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Kemp)
Date: Mon May 13 07:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "Mission On Mars" Scenario
Message-ID: <20020513141933.47296.qmail@web11207.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings, All,

I took some advice from the list, and attempted another Traveller
scenario this weekend at a local Game Day mini-convention. I entitled
it "Mission On Mars" and set it in 1115, using CT rules and the DGP
Task Resolution System for non-combat scenarios, just to make things
easier to explain to potential newbies. It was a blast!

Basic scenario:

Two of the PCs were called back from detached duty by the Sector
Director of the IISS, and they and their crews (two scout/couriers,
since I had seven show up to play) were hired by a mission of the
utmost importance. A datachip had been stolen from IISS Sector HQ on
Terra by the reknown interstellar thief Ella Taggert, and she had been
tracked to the Copernicus Regency on Mars. This encrypted datachip held
information regarding the identity of intelligence and
counter-intelligence operatives working undercover in the sector. Word
from the underground was that she was entertaining bids six days from
now, and analysis of ticket purchases indicated she could leave
anywhere from immediately after the sale to up to two days afterwards,
to any of four different destinations in the Sol subsector. The
Mission: Retrieve the datachip, and replace it with one containing
false information. Should that fail, the party is to prevent anyone
from obtaining that information by destroying the original chip. And of
course, should they be captured, the IISS will disavow any knowledge of
these individuals or their deeds. The party, of course, accepted. One
of them was given the identity of a Crime Boss from several subsectors
coreward, in the hopes of making contact with Ms Taggert and trying to
discover the location of the chip that way. The IISS had also uncovered
that the three biggest bidders so far looked to be two rival Crime
Bosses from the Sol subsector and a known SolSec agent.

They took a runabout (modified smallcraft with 6G maneuver drives,
designed for speedy in-system travel) to Mars, leaving them about 4.5
days until the datachip auction. They'd discovered along the way that
Copernicus Regency was also displaying the Sacred Stones of Muan Gwi,
glowing stones of antiquity that contained one of the oldest
inscriptions of the Concordiat, the body of law and philosophy that
guides Vegan culture. One of the PCs very astutely pieced together that
Ms Taggert was most likely at Copernicus to perform the auction AND
steal the Sacred Stones.

Upon arrival, the team split up, most getting a room and playing up the
big Crime Boss, while the remainder began more secretive searches for
Ms Taggart.

While the Crime Boss impersonator accidentally forces a confrontation
with one of the local Crime Lords at the casino (which resulted in a
series of shootouts in the hallways of the Regency, and some explosives
being set in the local Crime Lords room), the others identified Ms
Taggart casing the Sacred Stones display in disguise and followed her.
She changed into normal clothing and joined the SolSec agent for a meal
at one of the fancy restaurants. After the meal, the SolSec agent sent
one of his own to follow her, as well, so a pair of the party followed
her and the SolSec agent into the lifts. It was a confusing series of
quick encounters as one party member followed the SolSec agent off the
lift at one floor (since he knew what floor she was on), and the other
party member attacked her when they were alone, and knocked her out
with an injection. (She got off a shot, but missed, as she was
collapsing.)

The party basically rendevoused at another hotel in Copernicus Down,
and questioned Ms Taggert when she came back around with Truth drug.
She told them where the chip was located, who was trying to purchase
the chip, and acknowledged that she was going to steal the Sacred
Stones. She then passed out. The party switched the chips, then when
she came back around, they told her that they couldn't get the chip, so
she would have to. Lots of sneering and stuff went on, but she agreed.
She fetched the chip, then made a run for it. The party half-assed
chased her, but she "escaped." Meanwhile, the rooms of the Crime Lord
had exploded, and the news was full of organized crime families warring
at the Regency. The swap was made, then Ms Taggert stole the Sacred
Stones (the astute party member was kicking herself for not remembering
that and trying to deal with it), and basically the mission was a
success (though the party didn't stop the secondary crime, but it added
"realism" to the fact that the contents of the falsified chip were
genuine.)

We had a blast, and I discovered that, without the false limitations of
D&D alignments, most PCs tend to be extremely destructive in one-shot
games. :)

Anyway, thanks, everyone, for your help, and enjoy the adventure.

Keep On Travellin',
Jason Kemp


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 10:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon May 13 09:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
In-Reply-To: <11e.108d64b9.2a1089a5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020513091144.009fe830@mindspring.com>

At 11:14 PM 5/12/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I've noticed something similar about the Solomani, actually. Classic
>Traveller materials portray the Solomani as very distasteful. Yet there
>seems to be a consistent thread of admiration for them in the fan
>community, a feeling that they need to be "rehabilitated."

We like evil empires. It's fun dodging the secret police, foiling plots, 
fighting the good fight.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 10:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon May 13 09:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] test ping...
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36EF@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

They're ALWAYS wat..:>bzzt<:..

Modem reports no carrier

-----Original Message-----
From: Evyn MacDude [mailto:wmacdude@attbi.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 12:24 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] test ping...




DeGraff, Jesse wrote:

> Something weird may be going on with my work e-mail....

Or is it their watching you Fnord.
-- 
Evyn.

Evyn's Homepage: http://home.attbi.com/~wmacdude/index.html

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he
does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss,
the abyss also looks into you."
-Nietzsche


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 10:48:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Mon May 13 09:48:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World inspiration
In-Reply-To: <20020513131504.399DC279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205131834450.18214-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Mark Urbin writes:
>H. Beam Piper. His book "Space Viking" is the basis for the Sword Worlds.

Piper's "Space Viking" is presumed to be the inspiration for the notion of
having a group of worlds named after swords (AFAIK no one from GDW has
ever said anything either way on the subject). Beyond that any similarity
is no more than the similarity between any two SF settings.

And further writes:
>Hmmm....let's see feudal technocracy,

Only some of the TU Sword Worlds are feudal technocracies and all are
organized in a confederation. Piper's Sword Worlds are closer to simple
feudal societies and they are so very balkanized. The resemblance is
superficial.

>...armies travelling in grav vehicles
>and fighting with submachine guns.
>Nobles with big honking handguns...
>
>Sounds like Traveller to me.

It also sounds like most any other SF story of the action/adventure
persuasion from that period.

In any case, that's not the same thing as claiming that Piper's Sword
Worlds were the basis for the TU Sword Worlds. Except for the concept the
resemblance is far too vague to support such a claim (MM didn't even mine
Piper's book for names -- at least, there are world names in _Space
Viking_ that isn't used for any TU sword world).



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 10:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Mon May 13 09:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Wargaming
References: <3CDDA2DE.4496.83AC4A0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CDFD919.8040704@magpiesnest.co.uk>

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> On 10 May 2002, at 16:33, Mark Preston wrote:
> 
> 
>>course, you do get the odd one or two (like myself) that really go for
>>naval battles...the point is to know what you are interested in doing.
>>
> 
> Hey, its good to know I'm not the only one. And we don't have to 
> spend a kings ransom on our terrain <g>
> 
ROFL - except for the blue cloth, of course :)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 11:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May 13 10:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513101620.00b8cc80@urbin.net>
References: <008101c1fa83$9a134b20$915d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CDFAB08.9414.5EC972@localhost>

> >I think the same method could be applied to the Sword Worlders. 
> >There has been a rather one-sided presentation of them in various
> >sources.  There is obviously more to them than that.  One of the keys
> >might be to look at the Imperial worlds that have culturally Sword
> >Worlder populations.  You know, minor worlds like Vilis.
>
> >As for the Solomani - well, the Impies aren't exactly wonderful
> >people themselves.  Besides, at some level the Solomani are still
> >"us", and the thought that "we" would somehow become "them" is a
> >little disturbing...
> 

This is one of the things I tried to capture in my Forine Land grab.  
The world stuck between the Sword Worlds and the Imperium often 
faced both cultural and physical war with this powers in a struggle 
to find their own self .  When you add the harsh environment of an 
ice world packed with mineral wealth and an industrial base that 
supports a huge population there is another struggle that mirror a 
lot of the other struggle.  Individualism vsr common good, wealth 
vsr honour.  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 11:00:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May 13 10:00:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Another plot hook
In-Reply-To: <00b101c1fa86$b43ddf80$915d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3CDFAB08.28813.5EC97A@localhost>

On 14 May 2002, at 0:01, Alan Bradley wrote:

> 
> Ain't that a pearl?  It's so Traveller.  It could even support two PC
> groups.

Yea it is very good and some how it has to be used :  )

> "Our Heroes" are mercs on contract to a planetary government, which
> has enemies.  Another group of "Our Heroes" are merchants.  They get
> hired to carry the tip-off to the world, hopefully arriving in time. 
> _Obviously_ their journey would be uneventful - this is Traveller
> after all.  Then, of course, the other PCs get involved.

Well you can have a pro coup ship try to stop them.  The captain 
being the only person who knows there has been a tip-off so if the 
players take out the ship then all is safe.  Give the players 
something to do while in space. 

> I'm not sure exactly how to handle it, but ideally it would be an
> opportunity for a surprise ending, as the concealed troops pop out
> like rabbits pulled from a hat.  It might actually work better as a
> short story, rather than a scenario, unfortunately.

Well if the party is part of the government forces then it would not 
be a surprise so far as the PCs go. Now if you reverse it and make 
the party part of the coup maybe hired guns of the coup leader then 
we get the big surprise.  

Also you can have the players be the ship chasing the outbound 
crew carrying the tip-off fighting to stop it but failing.  This would 
actually make them important to the coup faction.  They know 
something is going to happen but know when and where.  The coup 
leader hires them to track down the courier ship crew and message.

They track it down to the palace picking up clues as they go.  Only 
they discover the plot just before it happens.  With this information 
do they help the coup leaders or use it as a head start to get out of 
the palace and off world?  


Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 11:01:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May 13 10:01:31 2002
Subject: [TML] "Mission On Mars" Scenario
In-Reply-To: <20020513141933.47296.qmail@web11207.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CDFAB08.1899.5EC964@localhost>

Jason 

That sounds like a pretty good game, but if you dont mind I am, 
going to snip most of the description in this letter :(

This adventure reminded me al ot of the opening to Mission 
Impossible 1 with out the party backstab.  

How was trying to control 7 players in the game.  I find that such a 
large party for this type of adventure can be hard.  This is a result 
of how the players split up and cover a lot more ground then the 
npcs. Was this a problem?  How do the rest of you handle this?

> We had a blast, and I discovered that, without the false limitations
> of D&D alignments, most PCs tend to be extremely destructive in
> one-shot games. :)

Yes, you will find that players and humens unrestricted from a 
morals have a tendency to find the simplest way out. And if guns 
happen to be handing they often play a key role.  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 11:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Mon May 13 10:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World inspiration
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205131834450.18214-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEPCDNAA.tml@jtas.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> On Behalf Of Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen

> In any case, that's not the same thing as claiming that Piper's Sword
> Worlds were the basis for the TU Sword Worlds. Except for the concept the
> resemblance is far too vague to support such a claim.

An a bit of an insult rather than a tribute. Like saying that the movie
Traveller was a tribute to Marc Miller's game, eh?

I for one would be interested in seeing a Traveller sourcebook for the Space
Viking milieu... oops! That idea might have been ripped off for some other
Traveller product already! The T:TNE Star Vikings were a bit closer to the
idea. I wonder if there is any point left to trying to reproduce it
faithfully?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 11:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon May 13 10:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Sword World inspiration
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205131834450.18214-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020513131504.399DC279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513130532.00b86a40@urbin.net>

At 06:47 PM 5/13/02 +0200, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>Mark Urbin writes:
> >H. Beam Piper. His book "Space Viking" is the basis for the Sword Worlds.
>Piper's "Space Viking" is presumed to be the inspiration for the notion of
>having a group of worlds named after swords (AFAIK no one from GDW has
>ever said anything either way on the subject).

Probably because of the before mentioned lack of legal permission from the 
Piper estate.

>Beyond that any similarity
>is no more than the similarity between any two SF settings.

The Piper Sword Worlds were founded by folks on the losing side of war who 
went way, way out to colonize rather than surrender.
The Traveller Sword Worlds were founded by folks who went way, way out to 
colonize.  I *think* this was during the Long Night period.

The original question was way are the Sword Worlds so popular.  My answer 
was that the popularity came from H. Beam Piper's "Space Viking" book.
It also seems to get good reviews from those who have read it on this list, 
so I'm guessing that a fair number of Traveller players have read it.
I have always found it to be good Traveller fodder.  An exact match?  Not 
that I ever claimed.  *The* inspiration for Traveller? Nope, didn't say 
that either.
But there is a definite Three Little Black Book feel (remember, no OTU at 
that point). Ok, so the size of the ships don't match, and the FTL drive is 
different.
There are grav vehicles and projectile weapons are mostly what are found in 
Book 1.  Ok, ok, so Piper was one drop a nuke at the drop of a hat, but gee 
guys, it was the 50's!  Everyone *knew* it was just a matter of time before 
the Reds pushed the Big Button down. That was the era of Nuclear Mortar 
rounds for  crying out loud.  Traveller was written the 70's, when it 
looked like we might just survive as a species as long as we avoided 
tossing Nukes like the Easter Bunny tosses color eggs about (at least 
before BunBun got to him...)

I did list the Dumarest of Terra series, which is a much better match for 
an inspiration for Traveller. That has high, low, & middle passages; fast 
drug, air/rafts, evil psionic bad guys....

The "Space Viking" concept, planets that maintained interstellar space 
flight raiding those that lost it, has been used several times in the OTU.
The Long Night and the Virus recovery era of T:TNE are too obvious 
examples.  In the OTU of CT, that's how the whole Reavers' Deep section got 
it's name.

There are a lot of things in "Space Viking" that can be cut and paste 
directly into a Traveller campaign.  What to do during long boring periods 
of Interstellar flight, how to raid a medium (6-8) tech world (especially 
if for enough off the beaten track to use Thunderballs and get away with 
it, or if you're in the Long Night period, there is no Empire to stop you), 
how to drain the tech base off a planet, etc., etc.

The Sword Worlds are also probably popular because like the Zhodani ("The 
Zhos make great serial villains... they sneer, consistently underestimate 
the heroes, and look great in black capes." -- Doug Berry), they make good 
villains.  Nasty militaristic Sword Worlders vs. the cutesy Elves in Space.
To use the old Cold War examples, the Vargr are the Cubans, and the Sword 
Worlders are the East Germans.  If you don't think the players can handle 
psionic Zho commandos, hit with a group from the Army of Gram (complete 
with Bisionoid leather belts).  You can have fun with the accents, when you 
tire of 'lapping beer out of a bowl' jokes you use when you hit 'em with 
Zho supported Vargr.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 11:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon May 13 10:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
References: <F106yfogkJXrRjbDt3H000123f4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CDFFC9C.30600@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> ObTrav - Need a BIG natural disaster that doesn't involve near-C rocks?  
> Your PCs could witness the event from orbit (my personal preference) and 
> then get roped into the "recovery" efforts.
>     For those of you who run darker campaigns, some villain or 
> government could be trying to trigger such an event.  How they would 
> trigger the necessary landslide is naturally up to you, but my first 
> guess would involve several bore holes and timed nuclear detonations.

You've been talking to Eris, haven't you!!??

We're off to rescue flooding victims on a planet we're supposed to leave 
in two days (guess we're gonna lose that high passage! But that rather 
neatly solves the housing problem...)

Someone, don't know who, dammed a river high up, creating a series of 
lakes.

Two PC's (one of whom is a native, from a ranch downstream plagued by 
drought and unexplained low water in the river this year) investigate 
these lakes.

By each dam was a rather suspicious device that looked like it was a 
bomb set up to breach the dam.

Now a hurricane is blowing in, dumping huige amounts of rain in the 
watershed and lo and behold there is a series of explosions as the dams 
are breached.

Presto, instant flooding of the ranches downstream, easily blamed on the 
  hurricane....

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 11:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon May 13 10:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <000001c1f996$6dc915b0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <20513.101648.2P5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> There was another episode where they were on the Asteroid ship "Unata"
> built by a race known as the "Debrinni", however it was Dr. Mcoy who was
> married, not Spock.

Actually, that was "Cabrinni" or something like that. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 12:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon May 13 11:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
References: <NFBBLDDPILPJIAJFMDJCOENECCAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net> <3cdea4cc.2864059@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3CE0057B.5040806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Stephen Tempest wrote:

> On the other hand, I bet that would be one of the first routine things
> every police department checks.  "Mutilated corpse found near the
> starport?  OK, pull the list of ships that were in port at the time
> and contact the owners for passenger and crew manifests.   Check to
> see if there were any similar killings previously, either here or
> elsewhere in the subsector, and cross-check the list of ships that
> were around for each of those..."

Probably not likely, since experience already tells them that in most 
cases, homicides are committed by people who know the victims. That's 
where they'll look the first 24 hours.

Conclusions are career-ending things to jump to as a homicide detective.

Why would anything that happens near a starport be automatically 
connected to a starship crew, and not the various and large populations 
around a starport?

Watch some of the true-crime stuff on TLC and Discovery channel: shows 
like 'The Prosecutors', 'New Detectives' and 'Cold Case Squad' all are 
excellent for police procedural mining.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 12:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon May 13 11:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
References: <F106yfogkJXrRjbDt3H000123f4@hotmail.com> <3CDFFC9C.30600@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CE008E7.8020802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> You've been talking to Eris, haven't you!!??

And I should read the WHOLE thread before replying....something I get 
razzed about in the game too ;-P




-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 12:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon May 13 11:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Russian translations.
References: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPCEIBDJAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <3CE009AD.4020807@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Maksim-Smelchak wrote:

> Starport = Zvezdaport = Z-vez-da-poh-rt = Direct translation although the
> word "port" in Russian has a stronger connotation of harbour rather than
> port (not that there's a lot of difference between the two). The word "bort"
> (Boh-rt) has more of a port connotation (as in place where big ships dock).


but I wonder if it wouldn't end up being something like 'cosmodrome', as 
that's the closest analoge we have right now...what is 'airport' in Russian?

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 12:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jason Kemp)
Date: Mon May 13 11:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "Mission On Mars" Scenario
Message-ID: <20020513185343.49488.qmail@web11201.mail.yahoo.com>

From: timothyreynolds@earthlink.net

<<Jason 

That sounds like a pretty good game, but if you dont mind I am, 
going to snip most of the description in this letter :( >>

No worries. Thanks for the feedback. :)

<<This adventure reminded me al ot of the opening to Mission 
Impossible 1 with out the party backstab. >>

Actually, it was a rewrite of another scenario I ran ten years ago,
based on one of the "76 Patrons" encounters. In the original run of
this scenario, the party themselves used stealing the gems on display
as a cover for replacing the chip. In this case, I chose to use their
methods as inspiration for the actions of the thief, in the hopes that
the PCs would be more "Good Guy"-oriented. Sadly, they were not, but it
was still a lot of fun. :)

<<How was trying to control 7 players in the game.  I find that such a 
large party for this type of adventure can be hard.  This is a result 
of how the players split up and cover a lot more ground then the 
npcs. Was this a problem?  How do the rest of you handle this?>>

Yes, we did end up splitting up a lot, and I just handled it based on
timelines and going around the table. I worked hard to make sure I
tried to cover everyone that wanted to do stuff. They certainly were
more places than the various NPC factions, but it suited the style of
the game. I do prefer a smaller group, though.

<<Yes, you will find that players and humens unrestricted from a 
morals have a tendency to find the simplest way out. And if guns 
happen to be handing they often play a key role.  >>

*sigh* So it would seem. ;)

Again, thanks for the feedback,
Jason Kemp


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 13:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon May 13 12:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Further ideas for the SOP
Message-ID: <200205131918.GEN00468@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm thinking of taking the current Ranger handbook and 
converting it to "IMTU" - that is, updating the tech 
somewhat, and adding it to the front of the SOP that I've got 
so far.

Now, I'm shooting for TL9 - TL12 - the level of equipment 
that "most" Traveller parties may be using, even if 
mercenaries.  

Also, the current link to the current Ranger handbook in the 
RU is 
http://www.benning.army.mil/rtb/ranger/HDBOOK/TABLEOFCONTENTS.
htm

Comments and suggestions are welcome.

Maybe when I'm done, it will be a full supplement, eh?
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Mon May 13 12:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020513003649.ABFB327990@mail.travellercentral.com> from "Eris Reddoch" at May 12, 2002 07:36:52 PM
Message-ID: <200205131822.g4DIMX901682@localhost.uia.net>

> Have three selectors. Any post that 2+ select is included.

Like Rob's idea of counting the "good post" votes, I no idea
how to implement this, but I agree w/ JR that it would be
quite a gift to the mailing list community (not just us) for
somebody to develop such a ware. I'm rather surprised it
doesn't already exist given the overall coolness of the idea.

In any case, if it proved technically infeasible to
reasonably automate, I'd suggest the manual method. Just
have "scanning duties/posting privs" cycle from one "best of"
member to another (or at least the crew of volunteers who
agree to take part in this exercise). It's rather imperfect
and open to charges of bias, but as they say in unix circles,
the best solution is often the enemy of the "good enough",
and right now I'd be willing to settle for good enough.
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 13:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon May 13 12:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
Message-ID: <200205131924.GEO00659@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Let's say I do clean up the SOP, and have an entire 
supplement entitled, "The Traveller Guide To Combat 
Operations", and it's game system independent (CT, MT, GT, 
T20 all OK).

So now what?   It's an unsolicited piece, and I'm not sure 
anyone would take it.  A fairly thick, meaty piece with a LOT 
of detail.  Use it for NPCs and Traveller parties alike.

I would rather that it read like a contemporary manual, and 
make no obvious reference to game mechanics.  Any ideas on 
what I do when I'm done, other than place it in the Black 
Hole of the TML?
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 13:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon May 13 12:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <200205131924.GEO00659@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513153248.00b91c20@urbin.net>

At 03:24 PM 5/13/02 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Let's say I do clean up the SOP, and have an entire
>supplement entitled, "The Traveller Guide To Combat
>Operations", and it's game system independent (CT, MT, GT,
>T20 all OK).
>So now what?   It's an unsolicited piece, and I'm not sure
>anyone would take it.  A fairly thick, meaty piece with a LOT
>of detail.  Use it for NPCs and Traveller parties alike.
>I would rather that it read like a contemporary manual, and
>make no obvious reference to game mechanics.  Any ideas on
>what I do when I'm done, other than place it in the Black
>Hole of the TML?

Make it available on the web.  PDF format perhaps.
I can host it, as I'm sure others are willing to do (including the listmeister)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 13:30:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon May 13 12:30:43 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Maybe get it published by BITS or QuikLink, maybe as a .pdf Traveller's Aide.

Can you e-mail me a copy BTW? :)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 12:24 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?


Let's say I do clean up the SOP, and have an entire 
supplement entitled, "The Traveller Guide To Combat 
Operations", and it's game system independent (CT, MT, GT, 
T20 all OK).

So now what?   It's an unsolicited piece, and I'm not sure 
anyone would take it.  A fairly thick, meaty piece with a LOT 
of detail.  Use it for NPCs and Traveller parties alike.

I would rather that it read like a contemporary manual, and 
make no obvious reference to game mechanics.  Any ideas on 
what I do when I'm done, other than place it in the Black 
Hole of the TML?
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon May 13 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Handwaving ourselves into the future
Message-ID: <200205131932.GEO01815@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

The air/raft could be upon us, if some of this is borne out.

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,52432,00.html
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 13:33:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon May 13 12:33:43 2002
Subject: [TML] re Hasty words
In-Reply-To: <3CE0057B.5040806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <NFBBLDDPILPJIAJFMDJCOENECCAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>
 <3cdea4cc.2864059@post.demon.co.uk>
 <3CE0057B.5040806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m3wuu7rggw.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> Probably not likely, since experience already tells them that in most
> cases, homicides are committed by people who know the victims. That's
> where they'll look the first 24 hours.

It'd all be automated.  Upon coroner's finding of homicide, relevant
details are fed into the computer, ships & passengers are
cross-referenced with itineraries and sector-wide reports, and the
results are spit out.

Sure, most won't register.  But a few will.  A few seconds is time
enough to spare.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Ha Mashiyach qam!  Ken hoo qam!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 13:34:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Mon May 13 12:34:39 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <200205131924.GEO00659@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200205131924.GEO00659@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <200205131538070835.220DA0DC@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/13/2002 at 3:24 PM John T. Kwon wrote:

>Let's say I do clean up the SOP, and have an entire 
>supplement entitled, "The Traveller Guide To Combat 
>Operations", and it's game system independent (CT, MT, GT, 
>T20 all OK).
>
>So now what?   It's an unsolicited piece, and I'm not sure 
>anyone would take it.  A fairly thick, meaty piece with a LOT 
>of detail.  Use it for NPCs and Traveller parties alike.
>
>I would rather that it read like a contemporary manual, and 
>make no obvious reference to game mechanics.  Any ideas on 
>what I do when I'm done, other than place it in the Black 
>Hole of the TML?

We aren't opposed to unsolicited submissions ;)

If you want shoot it to Martin to take a look at
martinjd@globalnet.co.uk

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 13:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon May 13 12:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513153248.00b91c20@urbin.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513153248.00b91c20@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <m3sn4vrg92.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> 
> Make it available on the web.  PDF format perhaps.

Write it up in DocBook or LaTeX.  Both have good arguments for--and
both can generate DVI, PS, PDF & HTML.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Krishhti Unjall!  Vertet Unjall!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 13:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon May 13 12:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGENACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     We've all heard of tsunamis, earthquake under the sea someplace, the
>sea bottom shifts and a nice ~10 meter wave is born.  Well, there seems to
>be another mechanism for generating the damn things; landslides.
>Specifically big honking landslides from volcanic islands.

I saw a program on tsunamis that concentrated on the effects of landslides
from the continental shelf into the deeper ocean on the nearby coast.  The
conclusion was that California was likely to be inundated by hundreds of
meters of water.

Better get ready to tie up de boat in Idaho!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 13:41:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon May 13 12:41:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIENACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>
>Today, the lake is bordered by a city of more than 100,000, and it's
>going to happen again.

This story has some of the earmarks of an urban legend.  Can you identify
the city or point us to a news source?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 13:42:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon May 13 12:42:32 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKENACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
>
>The PTB have gone out of the way to make the Sword Worlders
>childish, petty and boorish.
>
>They are chauvinistic to the extreme, are highly militaristic,
>quick to fight and slow to talk.  Plus, they have never
>developed the technology above a basic level, even after 1400
>years.  And they can't even keep a stable government up without
>secret Zhodani help.  And this is from their GOOD press.  :-)

So what's not to like?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 13:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon May 13 12:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIENACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CE01AD2.4090804@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>>
>>Today, the lake is bordered by a city of more than 100,000, and it's
>>going to happen again.
> 
> 
> This story has some of the earmarks of an urban legend.  Can you identify
> the city or point us to a news source?

Likely a confabulation of this:

http://www.marekinc.com/GeoOverviewNyos.html

and

http://lvo.wr.usgs.gov/CO2.html

I particularly like the latter; one warning is "Do not lie face down on 
the ground anywhere near Horseshoe Lake or the tree-kill area."


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 14:01:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon May 13 13:01:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
Message-ID: <200205131959.GEO06037@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Glenn M. Goffin" asks
>This story has some of the earmarks of an urban legend.  Can 
>you identify the city or point us to a news source?
>

Lake Nyos.  A lot of people died the last time the lake 
burped.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 14:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon May 13 13:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Player/Character knowledge (Was: Munchkins, et al)
In-Reply-To: <006a01c1f854$a4ac9680$662cf7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020513154618.04744570@mail.qrc.com>

At 02:58 PM 5/10/2002, Fred Ramen wrote:
>I've been kicking around the idea of allowing the Intelligence 
>characteristic as a floating DM, much like the tactics pool in MegaTraveller.

That's an interesting idea - and offhand, not a bad one.  I've used (in a 
different RPG system) the Luck characteristic in a similar way in the past.

Most characters will have INT and SOC that averages somewhere around 
7.  This means that they will be able to influence a number of rolls per 
session.  To limit the use of this ability (and to make high INT even more 
valuable), you might make the "pool" based on INT/3 (or maybe INT/5) 
dropping fractions.  This would tend to place the size of the pool on par 
with most skills.  The "average" character will have 2 or 3 points in the 
INT pool.  A really dumb character would have 0 or 1; smart characters 
would have 4 or 5 (enough to ensure the success of almost any skilled attempt).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 14:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Mon May 13 13:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIENACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIENACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20020513200210.GB13771@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Mon, May 13, 2002 at 12:34:04PM -0700, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> >From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
> >
> >Today, the lake is bordered by a city of more than 100,000, and it's
> >going to happen again.

That may be Lake Kivu and the city of Goma (Congo), or it may refer
to one of two lakes in Cameroon that have belched.
> 
> This story has some of the earmarks of an urban legend.  Can you identify
> the city or point us to a news source?
> 
Googling for "africa lake co2" got me started. I didn't check the
population of the cities in question, but the numbers presented do not
seem to be ridiculous.

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 14:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon May 13 13:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Lite
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEKJDNAA.tml@downport.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020506102238.02278ba0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020513160344.022a85f0@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:41 PM 5/10/2002, Swordy wrote:
>Looks like a very decent freebie PDF that could be linked of placed on 
>many web sites.

It could be - I started at the tail end of the discussion, so I didn't 
think it was my place to jump in and step on too many toes.  The biggest 
question would have to be Marc's: would he want there to be a giveaway 
"Traveller Lite" PDF?  Without Marc's OK, it'd be a moot point.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 14:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Mon May 13 13:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Lite
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020513160344.022a85f0@mail.qrc.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020506102238.02278ba0@mail.qrc.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020513160344.022a85f0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <200205131630530988.223DF0A5@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>It could be - I started at the tail end of the discussion, so I didn't 
>think it was my place to jump in and step on too many toes.  The biggest 
>question would have to be Marc's: would he want there to be a giveaway 
>"Traveller Lite" PDF?  Without Marc's OK, it'd be a moot point.

This idea is being discussed with Marc currently.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 14:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon May 13 13:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEEMGEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEEMGEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <3ce00cc9.5070061@post.demon.co.uk>

"Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com> writes:

>I think most people would tend to underestimate what a start-up colony =
would
>require to survive if they were planted on their own.=20

I've just been through the World Tamer's Handbook and came up with the
following requirements for a self-sufficient industrial TL 8 colony of
1,000 people:


Staterooms or low berths for 1,000 people (obviously)
270 livestock low berths (equal to emergency low berths)
1,414 dtons of capital equipment (worth MCr 5.6)
A 2-ton MHD powerplant rated at 1.2 MW
Either 1 dton of tents worth MCr 0.65, or prefabricated buildings
worth MCr 5.5.  WTG doesn't give volume figures for these.
A month's worth of food and other supplies for 1,000 people will take
up 10 dtons - multiply by the number of months you want to have in
reserve...

Once the colony's industry is up and running it will need almost
50,000 tons of raw materials per month.=20

Colony population breakdown is as follows:

Agriculture: 10% (produces enough food for 1,400 people)
Raw Materials: 12% (produces 50,000 tons per month)
Heavy Industry: 15% (MCr 2.7 per annum output)
Light Industry: 30% (MCr 5.4 per annum output)
Construction: 25% (MCr 4.5 per annum output)
Unproductive mouths (politicians, lawyers, soldiers, hairdressers,
player characters, etc): 8%

All in all, not really as large a load as one would have suspected.
However, if the colony transport is meant to be bringing along raw
materials for industry (to use until the mines and oil rigs come on
line), figure 2,500 dtons for a month's supply.  You'd also need
transport vehicles, of course (A modular cutter doing three journeys
per day can transport 2,520 dtons of cargo in a month).

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 14:32:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon May 13 13:32:38 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC:  May Competition
In-Reply-To: <20020503190335.22383.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020503190335.22383.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ce2163e.7491018@post.demon.co.uk>

Here's my entry, an adjusted version of the design I posted to the TML
previously (with 50+ mission specialists as required, plus a
correction to the design).

********************
Designer: Stephen Tempest
Manmufacturer: Storm Industries Naval Shipyards
Design System: GURPS Traveller

>Independent Exploration Vessel
>(Submitted by: Walt Smith)

"Golden Hind" class Exploratory Cruiser
GTL 10/TTL 12

********************
High Guard-2 USP (for reference):

CX-K233763-750000-60809(4)-0  MCr 2,701.92  10,000 tons  TL12
  BatB      6     4 4 2(2)
  Bat       6     4 4 2(2)
Crew=3D180 Passengers=3D10 Cargo=3D315 Marines=3D20
=46uel=3D3200 EP=3D700 Agility=3D3

(Note: the number in brackets is for missile turrets, rated separately
to the ship's missile bays)

********************
The Golden Hind from Storm Industries Naval Shipyards is ideal for
long-range independent exploration. Newly enhanced to meet the needs
of the Stellar Federation, the Golden Hind "D" series features an
expanded laboratory section and greatly enhanced facilities for crew
comfort.

The ship features a fully equipped survey suite supported by a large
complement of ship's boats.  Multiple redundancy of vital components
and generous crew facilities enable the Golden Hind D to spend an
extended time away from port, while the ship's heavy shielding and
military-grade armament mean that it has nothing to fear from any
armed threat short of a major naval combat unit.

The heart of the Golden Hind D is its twin survey modules, each
capable of independent operation. These allow the ship to detect
planets in neighbouring systems in a mere 3 hours, or map an entire
star system in just over a day.  The Golden Hind D also carries space
for 20 remote probes, and laboratory facilities for 24 researchers and
10 additional mission personnel.

Supporting the scientists in their work, the Golden Hind D can deploy
six modular cutters.  These are typically used for planetary surveys,
contact missions and general utiity work.  The ship also has a large
space dock capable of handling up to 100 dtons of small craft - other
ship's boats are normally assigned on a mission-specific basis.  The
Golden Hind D normally carries 20 ship's troops.  Cargo capacity is
300 dtons.

The Golden Hind D features a state-of-the-art jump drive giving the
maximum 3 parsecs' range [Note: maximum at TTL 12, that is...].  An
emergency Jump-1 drive provides back-up in case of catastrophic
failure of the main drive.  In addition, the ship is provided with
4,000 dtons of jump fuel tankage, enough for two consecutive Jump-2s
(or a J-3 then a J-1) without refuelling.  Being streamlined, the
Golden Hind D is capable of wilderness refuelling;  its onboard fuel
processors can refine a full load of fuel in 10 hours.

Additional safety features include a back-up bridge, a logistics
module with workshop and repair facilities, two sickbays, and
sufficient low berths for the entire crew.  Because of its extended
mission profile, the Golden Hind D provides single-occupancy
staterooms for all crewmembers.  An auditorium capable of seating half
the crew at once is also provided:  this can be used for briefings and
presentations as well as for morale-building entertainments.  Off-duty
crewmembers can also while away the hours by enjoying a refreshing dip
in the swimming pool - a new feature on the D series.

The Golden Hind is heavily armoured - up to three times the defence
rating of a typical civilian vessel.  It is also protected by
emissions cloaking, making covert surveys of inhabited systems easier.
=46or armament, the ship features two heavy particle accelerator bays on
each broadside plus dorsal and ventral missile racks, as well as no
fewer than 40 triple turrets.  With a fully laden acceleration of
2.5G, the Golden Hind is also highly manoeuvreable for a ship of its
size and power.

********************
GT statistics

Crew: 215 staterooms.
55 low berths (sufficient for 220 people)

Command crew: 14 - Captain, XO, 2 pilots, 2 navigators, 5 sensor
operators, 2 communications operators, computer officer.
Support Crew: 133 - 3 medics, 55 engineers, 18 ship's cutters crew, 52
gunners, 5 supernumeraries (crews for ship's boats, cargo officers,
etc).
Scientific crew: 52 - 24 analysts, 2 probe operators, 16 surveyors, 10
others (or staterooms can be used for passengers)
Ship's Troops: 20 (2 squads of marines)

Design:
10,000 dton streamlined hull.
Standard compartmentalisation.
Basic emissions cloaking.

DR 300  (PD 4)
6 bays:  2 missile, 4 particle accelerator.
40 triple turrets:=20
12 x 3 sandcasters
20 x 3 lasers
8 x 3 missile racks

Modules:
1 command bridge, 1 basic bridge.
1 engineering, 1557 manoeuvre, 600 jump, 16 utility.
4000 fuel, 50 fuel processing.
1 logistics, 1 probe, 2 survey, 12 laboratory
2 sickbay, 1 theatre, 1 swimming pool
215 stateroom, 55 low berth
100 space dock (1 dock)
Vehicle bays for six 50-dton vehicles
300 cargo

Statistics:=20
Empty Mass 22,009 tons
Loaded Mass 24,904 tons
HP: 255,000 hull, 9750 per bay (x6), 1200 per turret (x40)

Performance
Accel: 2.50 G loaded, 2.83 G empty
Jump: 3
Air speed: 4402 mph

********************

NOTE:  This version corrects a rather unfortunate error in the
original design, where I based the jump drive tonnage on the ship's
_usable_ displacement (8,000 tons) rather than its _total_
displacement (10,000 tons)...


Stephen
Chief Designer
Storm Industries Naval Shipyards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 14:41:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon May 13 13:41:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
Message-ID: <200205132040.GEQ03641@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Stephen Tempest and Antony Farrell note
<snip about colony logistics>

I think that two types of colony need to be considered.  One 
is meant to have constant trade, support, and contact with a 
nearby star system (by regular, I mean weekly shipments).  
The other is a one-shot, "we won't be seeing you for a 
hundred years" kind of colony.

The former doesn't require much in the way of "carry it with 
you" logistics, and doesn't suffer from the problem of "who 
will be the colony shoemaker, and who will be the colony 
breadmaker, etc."  It could end up being something like the 
colony seen in the movie Aliens, and would require additional 
shipments of manufactured material and equipment.  Probably 
sponsored by a megacorporation, and done for profit, not for 
reasons of altruism or exploration.  I would bet that large, 
ordinary freighters with surface interface craft would be 
used, not specialized ships.  Specialized ships cost more 
money.

The latter requires that you carry everything you'll need for 
*more* than the shipped population for a hundred years or 
more.  Otherwise, the colonists will rapidly revert to a much 
lower tech level, if they survive at all.  We're probably 
talking about a 500,000 dton ship that would be a permanent 
colony asset in itself.  You might consider a flying orbital 
habitat that can support the ground operations for a hundred 
years (complete with onboard factories) while the planet's 
surface is settled and explored.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 14:48:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon May 13 13:48:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Lite
Message-ID: <F21sCx7R9lNlAFmI71T00013c62@hotmail.com>

From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>

      "This idea (a Trav-Lite give-away) is being discussed with Marc 
currently."


Mr. Gordon,

     I do hope that Mr. Miller is warm to the idea.  The GURPS-Lite giveaway 
led me to purchasing more GURPS materials than just the Traveller series.
     Not only is GURPS-Lite available on their website, but hardcopies are 
passed out too.  I had a copy popped in my shopping bag, unasked for, at the 
Compleat Strategist in NYC after purchasing GT:GF there.
     GURPS-Lite let me learn enough about the system to want GURPS materials 
for more than just the gaming ideas presented in them, I wanted to use the 
system too.
     A Traveller-Lite pamphet can only increase interest in Our Olde Game.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 14:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon May 13 13:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <3ce00cc9.5070061@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1021323039.7515.ajackson@ping>

Stephen Tempest writes:
> "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com> writes:
> 
> >I think most people would tend to underestimate what a start-up colony
> >would require to survive if they were planted on their own. 
> 
> I've just been through the World Tamer's Handbook and came up with the
> following requirements for a self-sufficient industrial TL 8 colony of
> 1,000 people:

Assuming that WTH bears any resemblance to reality is, of course, dubious. 
Realistically, it's quite unlikely that a self-sufficient colony of 1,000
people is even possible past TL 4, though this depends on your definition of
self-sufficient.  Minimum population to sustain the full range of modern
non-leisure industries without external trade is probably somewhere on the
order of 10 million people, with a setup cost of a couple trillion dollars. 
Minimum to create a colony capable of bootstrapping itself to TL 8 over a
couple of generations is less clear, but probably 100,000+.

Not that Traveller worlds are generally self-sufficient; in fact, the Long
Night is pretty good evidence that most worlds are not self-sufficient.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 14:53:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon May 13 13:53:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
Message-ID: <F27G9Thpgf2OVKzy8VU0000e923@hotmail.com>

From: tml@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)

     "I've just been through the World Tamer's Handbook and came up with the 
following requirements for a self-sufficient industrial TL 8 colony of 1,000 
people: (snip of excellent material)"


Mr. Tempest,

     Thank you for the information sir!  I've got to get my furry, gnarled 
hands on WTH!
     Appropo of the sourcebook wish list thread, a GURPS, T20, or 
multi-system colonization book would be a BIG seller.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 14:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon May 13 13:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <m3sn4vrg92.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513153248.00b91c20@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020513153248.00b91c20@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513165615.00b93010@urbin.net>

At 01:37 PM 5/13/02 -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> > Make it available on the web.  PDF format perhaps.
>Write it up in DocBook or LaTeX.  Both have good arguments for--and
>both can generate DVI, PS, PDF & HTML.

True, but he's probably doing it in MSWord, so...converting to PDF is just 
a button press.
With the student price for Acrobat at $50 (last I checked), fairly cheap too...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 15:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Mon May 13 14:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Lite
In-Reply-To: <F21sCx7R9lNlAFmI71T00013c62@hotmail.com>
References: <F21sCx7R9lNlAFmI71T00013c62@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200205131707350413.225F87F6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 5/13/2002 at 8:47 PM Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>
>      "This idea (a Trav-Lite give-away) is being discussed with Marc 
>currently."
>
>
>Mr. Gordon,
>
>     I do hope that Mr. Miller is warm to the idea.  The GURPS-Lite=
 giveaway 
>led me to purchasing more GURPS materials than just the Traveller series.
>     Not only is GURPS-Lite available on their website, but hardcopies are=
 
>passed out too.  I had a copy popped in my shopping bag, unasked for, at=
 the 
>Compleat Strategist in NYC after purchasing GT:GF there.
>     GURPS-Lite let me learn enough about the system to want GURPS=
 materials 
>for more than just the gaming ideas presented in them, I wanted to use the=
 
>system too.
>     A Traveller-Lite pamphet can only increase interest in Our Olde Game.

It is in the 'initial' talk phase, but unfortunately Marc is out of town at=
 the moment. I don't see a real problem though from the conversation so far=
 (he was not immediately opposed). The main thing is not to give away to=
 much. Personally I'd like to see one based on CT (and thus an intro to T5=
 also) and one for T20. 

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 15:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon May 13 14:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
In-Reply-To: <008201c1fa83$9aaa5b00$915d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020513213506.340E2279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/13/02 at 11:38 PM,  "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> said:

>> From: jimv <jimv@uia.net>
>> In the interesting of making this something more than simply a "me too"
>> post, please contact me off-list if you'd be interested in working on
>> something similar for a non-OTU sector. -Jim

>The thing with any non-OTU project is that getting two or more people
>to agree on a vision of what the sector would look like is a bit of a
>cat-herding exercise. 

Yep, that's true.  I've been working on this sort of thing for my
Quental Main setting, and am beginning to do the same in the Reaver's
Deep sector. I'm trying to keep Reaver's Deep at least semi-OTU, using
all the published source I can get and fleshing out the rest, but the
Quental Main is all MTU.

I'd say that if a team was to work on a project like this, and be
successful, there would have to be someone with overall editoral
control. The editor would set up and enforce compliance with the
overall parameters for the sector, either on their own or in
consultation with a team of writers. The writers would be assigned
worlds, NPC's and organizations to detail based on the editor's specs.


Nothing wrong with it being a collaborative effort, but I don't think
it would work unless there was someone with the task and authority to
make sure the collaborators' material meshed.


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 15:43:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon May 13 14:43:57 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513165615.00b93010@urbin.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513153248.00b91c20@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020513153248.00b91c20@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020513165615.00b93010@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <m3offjragc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
>
> >Write it up in DocBook or LaTeX.  Both have good arguments for--and
> >both can generate DVI, PS, PDF & HTML.
> 
> True, but he's probably doing it in MSWord, so...converting to PDF
> is just a button press.

But locks one into a proprietary writable format and a read-only
format.  Not IMHO the direction to go long-term.  If one wishes to
create a work which will be a foundation for future development, there
are very few choices.  Straight ASCII works very well, but is a chore
for modern presentation-oriented types to format in a manner which
pleases them.  HTML is really a write-once, read-many format.  Really,
the same can be said of LaTeX (although it has advantages which may
outweigh that disadvantage).

DocBook is an excellent open standard for writing and editing
documents.  I've been using it quite a bit while documenting travlib
(almost done, BTW!) and am really _very_ impressed.  The one thing I
don't care for is that it is migrating to XML from SGML.  The changes
are minor, though.

IMHO, there's really no excuse for editing in Word.  For one thing,
you'll probably not be able to read your own work in several years,
what with the manner in which formats change.  For another, you end up
requiring your readers to shell out money for proprietary software.
Plus it doesn't really help out much with document structuring, unlike
DocBook and LaTeX.  And you don't get the incredible suite of tools
one gets on a system with emacs/vi and the POSIX & GNU toolsets.  And
it's really a) not a good editor b) does not produce attractive
output.  Point (b) is somewhat addressable with enough hand-holding,
but (a) is hopeless IMHO.

> With the student price for Acrobat at $50 (last I checked), fairly
> cheap too...

Emacs is $0.  Vi is $0.  Jade is $0.  teTeX is $0...

The only thing that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men
to do nothing.  Evil has been succeeding in the computer industry for
quite some time.  It's time for good men to do something.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Voskrese!  Voistinu Voskrese!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 15:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon May 13 14:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <3CE008E7.8020802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020513214452.CD957279B8@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/13/02 at 11:41 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>Bruce Johnson wrote:

>> You've been talking to Eris, haven't you!!??

>And I should read the WHOLE thread before replying....something I get
> razzed about in the game too ;-P

AOL <g>

Short update. 

One of the PC's is holded up on the side of a mountain with gale gusts
and horizontal rain, another is down in the hills with a flooding
river cutting him off from the side he needs to be on to help anyone.
Both of these PC's are on horseback. Five characters are aboard a
ship's boat flying into the hurricane, and the rest are preping the
ship to do the same thing.  Oh, and there is a lively vargr pup and
his mother aboard the ship...he was being treated by the ship's doctor
when all this came up, and the ship's pilot has gratiously allowed him
to come to the bridge and observe..."I wonder what will happen if I
push *this* button?" <g>

At the very least, I'm going to squeeze some more money out of them
over this. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 15:47:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Mon May 13 14:47:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Completely OT: Hey, Jesse...
Message-ID: <RELAY1s4RtE9GyGupP000007445@relay1.softcomca.com>

..do Lori and I need to clean out the guest bedroom for you
this weekend?  We are holding the ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot
this coming Saturday and Sunday, you know.

Just thought I'd ask.

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 15:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon May 13 14:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Completely OT: Hey, Jesse...
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36FE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Unfortunately, no :(  I still haven't recovered enough financially from =
my un-employed stint at the end of last year to be able to afford to go =
up.  I'm getting major withdrawl symptoms!!!  On the bright side, maybe =
by the time I can afford to go up again the '16 will be fixed :)~

Jesse
 =20

-----Original Message-----
From: markc@peak.org [mailto:markc@peak.org]
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 2:45 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Completely OT: Hey, Jesse...


..do Lori and I need to clean out the guest bedroom for you
this weekend?  We are holding the ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot
this coming Saturday and Sunday, you know.

Just thought I'd ask.

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 16:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon May 13 15:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGENACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0205132359550.456398-100000@svati>

On Mon, 13 May 2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>>
>>     We've all heard of tsunamis, earthquake under the sea someplace, the
>>sea bottom shifts and a nice ~10 meter wave is born.  Well, there seems to
>>be another mechanism for generating the damn things; landslides.
>>Specifically big honking landslides from volcanic islands.
>
>I saw a program on tsunamis that concentrated on the effects of landslides
>from the continental shelf into the deeper ocean on the nearby coast.  The
>conclusion was that California was likely to be inundated by hundreds of
>meters of water.
>
>Better get ready to tie up de boat in Idaho!

It has also been predicted that the island of La Palma (the Canaries)
will suffer such a lanslide, causing a 50-100m high wave, that would
destroy most of the cities on the east coast as well.

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 16:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon May 13 15:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
In-Reply-To: <3CDCC846.9050508@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205131530310.9281-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 11 May 2002, Evyn MacDude wrote:

> 
> 
> Douglas Berry wrote:
> 
> 
> > And it is a very nice boot, although I prefer lower heels.  Can i have 
> > the mare soon?
> 
> No, we saw what you did with the last one.

*murfle*  I MISSED it?  WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Pictures?

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 17:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Mon May 13 16:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: a head-beating moment (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20020513184336.79174279F1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513160610.009eb120@mailhost.efn.org>

> > There was another episode where they were on the Asteroid ship "Unata"
> > built by a race known as the "Debrinni", however it was Dr. Mcoy who was
> > married, not Spock.
>
>Actually, that was "Cabrinni" or something like that.

*sigh*

The name of the people was Fabrini, the asteroid-ship was named Yonada, and 
the episode was "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky."


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon May 13 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] When Landgrabbers collide or how do imperial systems wage war with
 nonimperial systems?
References: <3CDD3A43.29936.9627BD@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CE047FC.5F78E0D3@mindspring.com>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:

> Alan this really cool I liked the tone of it I can just see the people
> trying to paste all this together and the map discription is funny.
>
> You used unconvential means to destroy an invading fleet. In my
> Landgrab of Forine I used a controlled Volcantic erruption to wipe out
> an Imperial Marine bridge head.

From the official history of Fornine at the Fornine landgrab.

            With the outbreak of the 5th Frontier War, Forine, saw once
again a useful friend in the Sword Worlds and
             turned once again to their former masters.  They launched
small raids against Imperium forces on Mertactor
             and Mille Falcs.  In retaliation, Imperium forces, consisting
of elements of the new 100th fleet, under the
             Duke of Glisten took the opportunity to settle the Elixabeth
question.  The fleet advanced coreward against
             the Sword Worlds and other locale forces towards the end of
the war.  Task Forces Justice part of the
             100th fleet made up of a few cruisers, fleet transports, and
a dreadnought arrived at Forine to meet what
             appeared to be limited resistance, from two destroyers.  Task
Forces Justice made quick work of these
             forces and moved on to their objective.

             Following standard fleet practices the marines of TFJ dropped
quickly on the starport of the planet.  Once
             on the ground resistance form locale ground forces stiffened;
forcing the marines to dig in just on the
             outskirts of the starport and call down reinforcements. As
the troop shuttles neared the surface, all hell
             broke out.  Several fighters wings appeared from over the
horizon to down a majority of the reinforcing
             shuttles and their defending fighters before being driven off
themselves.  At the same time several SDBs
             appeared out from behind the masking Forine moons  to attack
and hold the task force fleet in position.
             Shortly afterwards five Forine raiders supported by a Sword
World heavy Cruiser task force jumped in
             system.

             As the naval engagement raged above; the marines at the
Forine starport began noticing a weakening of the
             Forinen lines.  As they assembled to take advantage of this
opportunity, the Forine's sprung a trap over half
             a millennium in the making.  With a push of a button, from
within the HCP offices, Hellmund erupted poring
             molten rock over the shocked marines.  The returning Forine
forces quickly mopped up the surveying
             marines.  Meanwhile the naval battle ended in a draw.
Recognizing the defeat of his grown forces, the TFJ
             admiral, jumped the remainder of his fleet out of the system,
to Elixabeth seizing it.

From the TNS at Glisten landgrab

321-1117 Glisten/Glisten/SM [2036]
      The Office of the Duke of Glisten announced today that economic and
cultural sanctions would be enforced against
 Fornine in District 268. The sanctions are in retaliation for Fornines
continued belligerance over Elixabeth in the same
 subsector. Fornine continues to attempt to rebuild its military forces,
shattered in the Fifth Frontier War. In the final battle on
 Fornine, the Dukes own outfit, the 314th IM Division, was wiped out in
the battle for Eisberg Starport. The Duke, unable to
 successfully assault the high population world, then lead the 100th Fleet
and the remainder of his Marines to occupy the
 Forninian annexed system of Elixabeth.

We haven't forgotten Mr. Reynolds. IF thats your real name.
    Alan Spik Landgrabber Glisten, for the duke of Glisten

Obtrav- We know that systems belonging to the #I can go to war amongst
themselves as long as they follow basic rules. But what if a system
decides to attack a nonmember system. I don't see the IN allowing a
retaliatory force to cross the border.

"Imperial Dreadnaught Fights Dirty, this is Forninian Frigate Gaseous
vapor. Be advised we are only here to attack Glisten in retaliation for
trade sanctions. Please don't blow us up."

Are member planets allowed to wage war outside the empire at all? If they
aren't this opens a lot of jobs for mercs.

As the representative of the Empire in the Glisten subsector I can't just
send the Imperial fleet to attack anyplace I want.... or can I?


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
When in doubt, have two guys come through the door with guns.
                               -Raymond Chandler



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 17:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon May 13 16:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205131530310.9281-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <3CDCC846.9050508@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020513161014.009ea0f0@mindspring.com>

At 03:30 PM 5/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>*murfle*  I MISSED it?  WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
>
>Pictures?

Well, it all happened at a Giants game, so we didn't think you'd be 
interested...  :P


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 17:26:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon May 13 16:26:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Completely OT: Hey, Jesse...
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C36FE@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020513161147.009ec960@mindspring.com>

At 02:50 PM 5/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Unfortunately, no :(  I still haven't recovered enough financially from my 
>un-employed stint at the end of last year to be able to afford to go 
>up.  I'm getting major withdrawl symptoms!!!  On the bright side, maybe by 
>the time I can afford to go up again the '16 will be fixed :)~

The 16 being fixed is one of the signs of the Apocolypse.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 17:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon May 13 16:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Lite
References: <F21sCx7R9lNlAFmI71T00013c62@hotmail.com> <200205131707350413.225F87F6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3CE04B02.886C6C8D@mindspring.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

> On 5/13/2002 at 8:47 PM Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
> >From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
> >
> >      "This idea (a Trav-Lite give-away) is being discussed with Marc
> >currently."
> >
> >
> >Mr. Gordon,
> >
> >     I do hope that Mr. Miller is warm to the idea.  The GURPS-Lite giveaway
> >led me to purchasing more GURPS materials than just the Traveller series.
> >     Not only is GURPS-Lite available on their website, but hardcopies are
> >passed out too.  I had a copy popped in my shopping bag, unasked for, at the
> >Compleat Strategist in NYC after purchasing GT:GF there.
> >     GURPS-Lite let me learn enough about the system to want GURPS materials
> >for more than just the gaming ideas presented in them, I wanted to use the
> >system too.
> >     A Traveller-Lite pamphet can only increase interest in Our Olde Game.
>
> It is in the 'initial' talk phase, but unfortunately Marc is out of town at the moment. I don't see a real problem though from the conversation so far (he was not immediately opposed). The main thing is not to give away to much. Personally I'd like to see one based on CT (and thus an intro to T5 also) and one for T20.
>
> Hunter

More MT please?



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
When in doubt, have two guys come through the door with guns.
                               -Raymond Chandler



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 17:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Mon May 13 16:35:03 2002
Subject: Baycon Re: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020513161014.009ea0f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205131631200.9281-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Mon, 13 May 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 03:30 PM 5/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >*murfle*  I MISSED it?  WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
> >
> >Pictures?
> 
> Well, it all happened at a Giants game, so we didn't think you'd be 
> interested...  :P

Ugh, never mind!

Since you guys are not going to be staying over at BayCon, is anyone up
for splitting a room?  I can actually afford to pay for a room this year
provided I don't have to pay for the entire thing-- I can kick in up
to $200-250.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon May 13 17:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <m3offjragc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B905A3FC.5B4DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/13/02 2:42 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

>> With the student price for Acrobat at $50 (last I checked), fairly
>> cheap too...
> 
> Emacs is $0.  Vi is $0.  Jade is $0.  teTeX is $0...

Normally, I'm an open source booster myself, but in this case I'm torn.  As
long as you are going to distribute in a user friendly format that's fine.
But as far as the players I know, there is only one who is familiar with the
above tools, and that's me.  I'd venture to say that PDF is a format that
the vast majority of computer users will be at least be familiar with.
We're talking about gamers here, not Sysadmins and Unix geeks.  These types
may be well represented on this list, but I doubt they make up a large
percentage of gamers as a whole.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 18:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon May 13 17:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
Message-ID: <200205140018.GEX00216@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Well, I use vi at work, and I HATE IT.  But, it seems to work 
better than that fancy hodgepodge called Visual Cafe Studio 
(that, and I end up using Ant because every other method of 
building seems to s__k).

I've used ps formats before, but outside of a Unix box, 
virtually no one has a Postscript viewer (Ghostscript, 
anyone?).

It can't be ASCII, since there will be some graphics in it.  
Speaking of that, I'm going to need an artist to do 
drawings.  I would ask my wife, but she's stuck doing faces - 
right now she's doing a pen and ink of Ian Anderson.

In the end, I don't want the user to edit it.  

It might be Acrobat, since the end users are likely to be 
able to get a copy of the reader regardless of their platform.

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 18:36:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon May 13 17:36:54 2002
Subject: [TML] New Sourcebooks (was Request)
Message-ID: <20020514003543.66656.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Well, I have a Big Mystery/Unanswered Question
unravelling in my Corridor PBEM.  Go to 
http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/corridor/2002-April/thread.html

and start with The Briefing
END QUOTE

And people are already turning inside out (literally)
;) Gee If it wasnt for the space ships I would swear I
was back in high school playing D&D with my Evil GM of
Doom (TM WoTC). Never sign up for a game before you
now the plot ;)

P.s Oh and John your SOP manual was cool, just needs a
bit more anti-vietnaming and some travellerfication.
But when its finished it should really help people who
have a TV/Movie view of the military.

James



=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
- A great way to communicate long-distance for FREE!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 18:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon May 13 17:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
References: <200205140018.GEX00216@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CE05D46.2040305@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Well, I use vi at work, and I HATE IT.  But, it seems to work 
> better than that fancy hodgepodge called Visual Cafe Studio 
> (that, and I end up using Ant because every other method of 
> building seems to s__k).

I agree. I used to have a sign above my desk:

"vi has two modes: Beep mode, where every keypress simply makes it beep 
at you, except the one that gets you into insert mode, where every 
keypress makes a subtle, invisible change to your file until you hit the 
one that gets you back into beep mode"

;-)

> I've used ps formats before, but outside of a Unix box, 
> virtually no one has a Postscript viewer (Ghostscript, 
> anyone?).

Ghostscript runs on a large variety of platforms. It also makes PDF 
files (which is what we use it for...we generate some database reports 
using ps2pdf).

Mac OSX makes PDF files natively.

PDF IS an open standard. Adobe gets to specify it, but it is published 
and you can make .pdf files without using a lick of Adobe software.

> In the end, I don't want the user to edit it.  
> 
> It might be Acrobat, since the end users are likely to be 
> able to get a copy of the reader regardless of their platform.

Easily, so long as they're using Mac, Windows or some Unices (With 
Acrobat Reader), and Ghostscript should get most of the rest of the folks.

That said, the overwhelming majority of potential users can get to aome 
sort of PDF reader.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 18:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon May 13 17:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Suggestion on which reprint to buy next
Message-ID: <20020514005836.29173.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

Will I thought I would get some use out of all the old
Traveller players and get there suggestions for which
reprints I should buy next due to my limited funds
(damn computer games). I already have the Books (FFE1)
 and the supplements (FFE2). So should I buy the
adventures (FFE3-4) or the journal reprints (FFE6-7)?
I am at the moment leaning towards the journal
reprints as I can easily do my own adventures, however
the FFE3-4 does contain background material. Damn Marc
Miller and his Classic Traveller goodness.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://briefcase.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Briefcase
- Save your important files online for easy access!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 19:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon May 13 18:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Red Dwarf
Message-ID: <20020514010138.98038.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
The Spinward Marches Entertainment Group/Heavy
Equipment Architects Group (SMEG/HEAD) is pleased to
announce the launching of a new class of ship.
END QUOTE

What about the Red Dwarf class mining vessel? 

Whistling: It's cold outside theres no kind of
atmosphere.........

James



=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://briefcase.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Briefcase
- Save your important files online for easy access!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 19:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon May 13 18:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <B905A3FC.5B4DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B905A3FC.5B4DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3sn4vy1qe.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> But as far as the players I know, there is only one who is familiar
> with the above tools, and that's me.  I'd venture to say that PDF is
> a format that the vast majority of computer users will be at least
> be familiar with.

What I mean is that the author creates the document using the
aforementioned tools, and can offer them as PostScript, PDF and HTML
files, as well as source.  And anyone who desires to can download that
source and modify it to his heart's content.

I didn't mean for distribution to be solely as source.  Sorry to have
been so unclear.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Al masi qam!  Hakan qa'am!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 19:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon May 13 18:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <200205140018.GEX00216@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200205140018.GEX00216@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3offjy1gs.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
>
> Well, I use vi at work, and I HATE IT.  But, it seems to work better
> than that fancy hodgepodge called Visual Cafe Studio (that, and I
> end up using Ant because every other method of building seems to
> s__k).

I used to be very keen on vi.  I forced myself to learn emacs because
I wanted an easy way to interface to CVS (nothing's much easier than
C-x v v to check a file in...).  Now I'm quite fond of Eight Megabytes
and Constantly Swapping.  I just didn't want to start a vi/emacs holy
war.

FWIW, I think that vi excels at editing configuration files.  yy, dd,
p, ., r, s, C and the like are _nice_.  Emacs doesn't quite do it that
well for me.

> I've used ps formats before, but outside of a Unix box, virtually no
> one has a Postscript viewer (Ghostscript, anyone?).

Ah, but PostScript's virtue is that it can be dumped directly to a
printer, and the user will get exactly what you want.

> In the end, I don't want the user to edit it.  

How come?  Perhaps he wishes to annotate it or alter it to fit his
ideas.

You can still restrict distribution, if you don't want modified copies
floating around.  I wouldn't--the various licenses such as the Free
Documentation License work for me--but you could do that if that was
your idea.

> It might be Acrobat, since the end users are likely to be able to
> get a copy of the reader regardless of their platform.

PDF is a nice printing format, but atrocious for online reading.

That's why I'm beginning to like DocBook more and more.  It generates
every output format I could possibly want: screen formats such as HTML
and man as well as printing formats like PostScript and Portable
Document Format.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Anesti!  Alithos Anesti!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 19:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Mon May 13 18:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020513135430.A28322@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CDEF0F8.14028.6966285@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CE03069.18315.7E4011@localhost>

On 13 May 2002 at 13:54, Timothy Little wrote:

> Only if you want automatic conversion of plaintext messages to HTML,
> which then (correctly) won't be displayed by a number of subscribers'
> email clients.

True - though my preferred mail client under windows is 
PegasusMail which can display and launch URLs.  And I saw Mr. 
Holmes reply, but the point is still valid - it's not perfect.
(I doubt anything would be - but it's an attempt.)

Perhaps a mailto: link instead?  

mailto:tml-best-of-vote?msgid=12345@travellercentral.com ?
 
> In my case (most of the time): I'd have to fire up my browser, then
> cut-and-paste the URL into the location input box.

Would the mailto version be better in this case?
 
> It's not.  There's a *huge* difference between searching for key
> phrases like "$$$MAKE MONEY FAST$$$", individually-tuned score files
> based on subject line text or author name, and the requirements of a
> shared mailing list which could include just about *anything* in a
> message and still be a highly regarded on-topic message.  I almost
> missed the highly amusing Traveller variant on the "Chinese Forklift"
> spam as it was.  Having it automatically filtered out of the mailing
> list for everyone would be a Bad Thing, IMO.
> 
> It's a "Hard AI" problem.

Yeah, I kind of thought that would be the case.  (I was just so 
impressed by spamassassin I thought "maybe..." :)

I'm still partial to the mailto thing, but kind of think it would
come down to one or two people doing it (and *I* don't have the 
time) and any filtering would be subjective and debated.

I hadn't thought of Mr. Holmes objections about late replies 
(there go my ideas of catching up on the list and making late 
replies... :).   Perhaps if it were clearly seen as an additional
feature/service for those that don't want to get all the TML 
(digest or otherwise) they can get a list of posts the regular 
readers have voted for, realizing it'll be at least a day or so 
out of date and may not be 'reply'-able.

But this is straying long OT and I don't want to drive away any 
one with more noise.


Rob

--

Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
 Re vera, potas bene.  --  Say, you sure are drinking a lot.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 20:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon May 13 19:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] travlib Documentation
Message-ID: <m3helbxz87.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

I have completed my first cut at travlib documentation.  All functions
and signals are documented; most enumerations and attributes are.
I've tried to include some prefatory text in most place to explain
what is going on.

The API reference can be found at:
<http://travtrack.sourceforge.net/travlib/reference/c43.html>

The travlib Programmer's Manual can be found at:
<http://travtrack.sourceforge.net/travlib/reference/>

Be warned that--other than the API reference--it is very incomplete.
However, with the API documentation any programmer should be able to
fairly quickly pick up the concepts involved.

travlib is currently 12,035 lines of code.

For those who are unfamiliar with travlib, it is a collection of C
functions which should hopefully make writing Traveller programmes
more than a little easier on the programmer.  It uses the gtk+ object
system, which may seem like overkill at first, but is actually useful,
due to issues of inheritance.  All the code is GPLed, and thus freely
available to the world.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Anesti!  Alithos Anesti!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 20:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May 13 19:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] When Landgrabbers collide or how do imperial systems wage war with nonimperial systems?
In-Reply-To: <3CE047FC.5F78E0D3@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CE02B06.10751.252D582@localhost>

On 13 May 2002, at 19:10, alan spik wrote:

<snip my history...the only think I have to say about it is
I need an editor :  )>
> 
> We haven't forgotten Mr. Reynolds. IF thats your real name.
>     Alan Spik Landgrabber Glisten, for the duke of Glisten
> 

Duke Spike my name isMr.  Reynolds, I do not need a title to 
speak out against your Imperial ways.  Forine is a democratic 
society.  

> Obtrav- We know that systems belonging to the #I can go to war amongst
> themselves as long as they follow basic rules. But what if a system
> decides to attack a nonmember system. I don't see the IN allowing a
> retaliatory force to cross the border. 

Over all I think Mercs and political manoeuvring both in the local 
non Imperial territory and at court. With in non Imperial Territory the 
Duke's lets say, would use his personal power to leverage the 
political situation with in the subsectors.  This would include 
mercs, trade, and political pressure.  At Court the Duke in question 
would try to point out how much of a threat or of value the system
is actually to the Imperium.  If he is lucky then the Emperor would 
officially sanction an invasion. 

But Forine is only under an illegal blockade so you should withdraw 
your forces. 

Tim Reynolds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 20:06:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May 13 19:06:57 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <B905A3FC.5B4DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <m3offjragc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3CE02B06.28189.252D58C@localhost>

On 13 May 2002, at 17:10, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 5/13/02 2:42 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:
> 
> >> With the student price for Acrobat at $50 (last I checked), fairly
> >> cheap too...
> > 
> > Emacs is $0.  Vi is $0.  Jade is $0.  teTeX is $0...
> 
> Normally, I'm an open source booster myself, but in this case I'm
> torn.  As long as you are going to distribute in a user friendly
> format that's fine. But as far as the players I know, there is only
> one who is familiar with the above tools, and that's me.  I'd venture
> to say that PDF is a format that the vast majority of computer users
> will be at least be familiar with. We're talking about gamers here,
> not Sysadmins and Unix geeks.  These types may be well represented on
> this list, but I doubt they make up a large percentage of gamers as a
> whole. -- 

Just to let you know I have Acrobat and should be able to put it into 
PDF format if and when needed.

Tim Reynolds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 20:19:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon May 13 19:19:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Handwaving ourselves into the future
Message-ID: <20020514021823.73389.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
The air/raft could be upon us, if some of this is
borne out.

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,52432,00.html


"All major scientific breakthroughs were scoffed at
when they first debuted," Marc Millis, a researcher at
the Breakthrough Propulsion Physics project, said. "To
move forward, a scientist has to explore the seemingly
impossible." 
END QUOTE

Marc Millis. Come on this has to be a joke by a Trav
fan. I mean seriously Marc Millis ;)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://briefcase.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Briefcase
- Save your important files online for easy access!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 20:25:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon May 13 19:25:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Handwaving ourselves into the future
In-Reply-To: <20020514021823.73389.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020514022422.2E5AA27990@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/14/02 at 12:18 PM,  James Ramsay <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
said:

>QUOTE
>The air/raft could be upon us, if some of this is
>borne out.

>http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,52432,00.html


>"All major scientific breakthroughs were scoffed at
>when they first debuted," Marc Millis, a researcher at
>the Breakthrough Propulsion Physics project, said. "To
>move forward, a scientist has to explore the seemingly
>impossible." 
>END QUOTE

>Marc Millis. Come on this has to be a joke by a Trav
>fan. I mean seriously Marc Millis ;)

Nope, that's his name, Doctor Marc Millis. <g>  He's been the director
of the NASA BPP project for several years.  I'll admit to getting a
chuckle the first I time I saw his name in this context a couple of
years ago. It would be interesting to know if he knows of, plays, or
ever played Traveller.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 21:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon May 13 20:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] When Landgrabbers collide or how do imperial systems wage war
 with nonimperial systems?
References: <3CE02B06.10751.252D582@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CE07D3B.9097A82E@mindspring.com>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:

> On 13 May 2002, at 19:10, alan spik wrote:
>
> <snip my history...the only think I have to say about it is
> I need an editor :  )>
> >
> > We haven't forgotten Mr. Reynolds. IF thats your real name.
> >     Alan Spik Landgrabber Glisten, for the duke of Glisten
> >
>
> Duke Spike my name isMr.  Reynolds, I do not need a title to
> speak out against your Imperial ways.  Forine is a democratic
> society.
>
> > Obtrav- We know that systems belonging to the #I can go to war amongst
> > themselves as long as they follow basic rules. But what if a system
> > decides to attack a nonmember system. I don't see the IN allowing a
> > retaliatory force to cross the border.
>
> Over all I think Mercs and political manoeuvring both in the local
> non Imperial territory and at court. With in non Imperial Territory the
> Duke's lets say, would use his personal power to leverage the
> political situation with in the subsectors.  This would include
> mercs, trade, and political pressure.  At Court the Duke in question
> would try to point out how much of a threat or of value the system
> is actually to the Imperium.  If he is lucky then the Emperor would
> officially sanction an invasion.
>
> But Forine is only under an illegal blockade so you should withdraw
> your forces.
>
> Tim Reynolds

Really I'm thinking more of a situation of a world not under control of a
noble. Suppose the citizens of Wardn/Lunion/SM[1727] B-756486-B get a wild
hair and decide  invade Gram with their home built starships. Does the IN
let the swordies through the border to retaliate as its a local thing?. Does
Wardn continue to enjoy the protection of the Empire? Does Duke Lunion send
them a xmail to cease and desist?

The blockade of Forine will be lifted when Forine recognizes Elixabeths
independence.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I used to be Snow White -- but I drifted.
                               Mae West



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 21:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon May 13 20:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Red Dwarf
Message-ID: <20020513230548.53e20f24e6ff41d3b4bc287cf4082472.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>QUOTE
>The Spinward Marches Entertainment Group/Heavy
>Equipment Architects Group (SMEG/HEAD) is pleased to
>announce the launching of a new class of ship.
>END QUOTE
>
>What about the Red Dwarf class mining vessel? 
>Whistling: It's cold outside theres no kind of
>atmosphere.........

Only if the lovely Kristine Kochanski is abroad.  There is not much point
otherwise.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 21:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon May 13 20:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <m3offjragc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513165615.00b93010@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020513153248.00b91c20@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020513153248.00b91c20@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020513165615.00b93010@urbin.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513231600.01a06eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 03:42 PM 5/13/2002 -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> > >Write it up in DocBook or LaTeX.  Both have good arguments for--and
> > >both can generate DVI, PS, PDF & HTML.
> > True, but he's probably doing it in MSWord, so...converting to PDF
> > is just a button press.
>
>But locks one into a proprietary writable format and a read-only
>format.

Not for the author.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 21:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May 13 20:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] District 268/A thought
Message-ID: <3CE03C9F.28536.29796A5@localhost>

<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>Hi all 


My little conversation with Allen reminded me of the landgrab.

I went back to check out the landgrab page and noticed that 10 out 
of the 32 systems there are claimed.  This is a pretty good number 
and was wondering if any of you working on a District 268 would 
like to get together and compare notes.  If you are just email me 
and we will try to organize things


Just a thought


Tim Reynolds



32Dis

<nofill>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 22:22:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon May 13 21:22:05 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513231600.01a06eb0@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513165615.00b93010@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020513153248.00b91c20@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020513153248.00b91c20@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020513165615.00b93010@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020513231600.01a06eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <m3d6vzxsu8.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
>
> >But locks one into a proprietary writable format and a read-only
> >format.
> 
> Not for the author.

Even for him.  Edit a file in Word this year, and there's no guarantee
that several years down the line one will still be able to do
_anything_ with it.  Edit a pure text file, and one will still be able
to deal with it in fifty years' time.  Even with a good amount of
markup, a text file (which is what the source for both LaTeX and
DocBook is) can always be translated into something else quickly and
relatively easily.

And, even as an author, why release uneditable files?  If one cares
about modified copies floating about, simply prohibit distribution of
modified copies.  But don't mistreat your readers by preventing them
from making their _own_ modifications!  After all, if they may not
distribute them then it cannot hurt you, and can only help them.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Voskrese iz mertvych
Smertiju smert' poprav
I suscim vo hrobich zi
Vot darovav!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 23:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon May 13 22:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC: May Competition Entry
In-Reply-To: <20020503190335.22383.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508121752.020ea8c0@mail.qrc.com>

Arcadia Construction and Shipbuilding ("Arcadia") of Glisten is pleased to 
respond to the Stellar Federation's request for design proposals.  Arcadia 
is a firm of naval architects located in Glisten.  In addition to providing 
consulting and naval architecture services, Arcadia can provide a complete 
starship procurement services from design through delivery.  Arcadia 
partners with quality shipbuilders such as Bilstien Yards and Jonathan 
Laird & Company.  Arcadia provides project management and acts as a single 
point of contact for the procuring agency.

Purchase of design services from Arcadia includes complete design and 
specifications allowing local construction of any number of vessels, for 
one standard architects' fee.  Arcadia will consult with the building yards 
to determine local capability, standards, and practices.  Included in this 
price are any Imperial Data Packages that may be required to complete 
construction, as well as assistance in preparing any required IISS 
Technology Transfer and Control Office filings.

REQUIREMENTS

Analysis of the Federation's requirements leads us to a fundamental 
conflict in the requirements: a need for a long-range exploratory vessel 
(J-3, 5 years endurance) with a "payload" of approximately 50 mission 
specialists.  This contrasts with a desire to operate offensively and 
defensively against TL-11 or lower opponents, and a need for a 
cost-effective solution.  In developing the design requirements, it has 
been assumed that the military capability is secondary - that this is to be 
an exploration vessel, not a warship - and emphasis was placed on the 
exploration requirements.

It is unclear if the Federation intends to build a single vessel, or if a 
fleet of ships is envisioned.  Therefore, Arcadia has designed two options: 
one a low-cost platform for delivering the needed scientific capability, 
and a more expensive, full-capability vessel.  Ideally, a balanced fleet of 
both types of ships should be procured.  However, budget realities must be 
respected, and therefore both vessels are capable of delivering the 
required exploratory mission.

Due to the extremely long duration of the proposed mission, an emphasis was 
placed on energy weapons (meson and particle accelerators, fusion guns, and 
lasers).  However, all designs include missile turrets or bays to launch 
recoverable probes of various types.  Arcadia's standard data packages 
include specialized missiles including a deep-space sensor probe, an 
orbital communications relay, and a planetary resource mapping probe.

Both ships in this proposal have spacious accommodations: in addition to a 
standard (4dton) stateroom allotment, an additional 4 tons per crew member 
are allocated to additional living space.  In the Discovery class, this 
amounts to  872 tons of recreational space (in addition to roomy living 
quarters), including a theatre, exercise and sports areas, multi-use rooms, 
and lounges.  The Beagle class, with less than half the crew complement, 
has 480 tons of recreational space, resulting in fewer amenities, but just 
as much space per crew member.

-----8<-----

OPTION 1 - Discovery-Class Long-Range Exploratory Starship

The Discovery class starship incorporates strong armament (a Class C spinal 
meson gun, backed by particle accelerator and fusion gun bays), active 
defenses (replusor bays).  The ship is an open-frame dispersed structure 
for maximum efficiency.  It is capable of carrying 4 starships plus a 
number of small craft through a total of 4 parsecs of jump.

A primary feature of this design is the use of subsidiary starships for 
exploration work.  As specified, two S-12 and 2 SX-12 class scoutships are 
carried.  All of these vessels are capable of Jump-3, allowing the 
Discovery class starship to more than quadruple the survey swath of a 
single ship as individual scoutships are sent ahead and on side 
missions.  Inexpensive and readily available Imperial standard Type S 
scoutships can be carried, although their lower performance will limit the 
effectives of the design.

The 977 tons of cargo capacity allow for 378 tons of materials, supplies 
and spares (sufficient for the full crew complement for five years), plus 
500 tons of flexible laboratory space, and an additional 99 tons of 
dedicated cargo hold.  Compact and flexible shop equipment allow the ship's 
crew to fabricate almost any type of spares that may be required.

Ship: Discovery
Class: Discovery
Type: Explorer
Architect: Arcadia
Tech Level: 12

USP
          SB-L7324F3-090006-678C4-0 MCr 16,112.292 20 KTons
Bat Bear             1   2 12211   Crew: 218
Bat                  1   2 12211   TL: 12

Cargo: 977 Fuel: 8,800 EP: 800 Agility: 0 Shipboard Security Detail: 20
Craft: 2 x 150T, 2 x 100T, 2 x 10T, 2 x 50T, 2 x 30T
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/2bis Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 157.643   Cost in Quantity: MCr 12,959.438

Detailed Description

HULL
20,000.000 tons standard, 280,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure

CREW
21 Officers, 197 Ratings (including 50 mission specialists)

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 2G Maneuver, Power plant-4, 800.000 EP, Agility 0

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/6fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/2bis Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
Spinal Mount, 4 100-ton bays, 2 50-ton bays, 19 Hardpoints

ARMARMENT
1 Meson Gun Spinal Mount (Factor-C),
2 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bays (Factor-8),
2 50-ton Fusion Gun Bays (Factor-7),
4 Triple Missile Turrets in 1 Battery (Factor-4),
5 Triple Beam Laser Turrets in 1 Battery (Factor-6)

DEFENCES
2 100-ton Repulsor Bays (Factor-6),
10 Triple Sandcaster Turrets in 1 Battery (Factor-9)

CRAFT
2 150 ton Wind IIs (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 84.946),
2 100 ton Serpent IIs (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 61.306),
2 10 ton Gigs (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 5.480),
2 50 ton Modular Cutters (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 22.280),
2 30 ton Cutter Modules (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 0.000)

FUEL
8,800.000 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
436.0 Staterooms, 977.000 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr 15,921.911 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 157.643),
MCr 12,611.414 in Quantity, plus MCr 348.024 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
172 Weeks Singly, 138 Weeks in Quantity

-----8<-----

Ship: Beagle
Class: Beagle
Type: Explorer
Architect: Arcadia
Tech Level: 12

While the Beagle class exploration starship offers significantly less 
capability than the Discovery class, it is also very economical: the Beagle 
class delivers the same "payload" of 50 missions specialists and associated 
laboratory space at less than 1/4th the cost of the Discovery.  Most 
aspects of the ship have been optimized for cost-effectiveness, resulting 
in a much smaller vessel and a slightly more compact fit.

The 683 tons of cargo capacity allow for 208 tons of materials, supplies 
and spares (sufficient for the full crew complement for five years), plus 
400 tons of flexible laboratory space, and an additional 75 tons of 
dedicated cargo hold.  Compact and flexible shop equipment allow the ship's 
crew to fabricate most spares that may be required.

USP
          SB-F632333-000006-00808-0 MCr 3,612.303 6 KTons
Bat Bear                 2   2 2   Crew: 120
Bat                      2   2 2   TL: 12

Cargo: 683.6 Fuel: 1,980 EP: 180 Agility: 0 Shipboard Security Detail: 6
Craft: 2 x 99T, 2 x 10T, 2 x 50T, 2 x 30T
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/2bis Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 36.123   Cost in Quantity: MCr 2,889.842

Detailed Description

HULL
6,000.000 tons standard, 84,000.000 cubic meters, Flattened Sphere

CREW
14 Officers, 106 Ratings (including 50 mission specialists)

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 2G Maneuver, Power plant-3, 180.000 EP, Agility 0

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3 Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/2bis Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
4 100-ton bays, 2 50-ton bays

ARMARMENT
2 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bays (Factor-8),
2 50-ton Missile Bays (Factor-8)

DEFENCES
2 100-ton Repulsor Bays (Factor-6)

CRAFT
1 99.000 ton Fast Shuttle (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 0.000),
1 99.000 ton Slow Shuttle (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 0.000),
2 10.000 ton Gigs (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 0.000),
2 50.000 ton Modular Cutters (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 0.000),
2 30.000 ton Cutter Modules (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 0.000)

FUEL
1,980.000 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
240.0 Staterooms, 683.600 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr 3,648.426 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 36.123),
MCr 2,889.842 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
151 Weeks Singly, 121 Weeks in Quantity

-----8<-----

Standard Data Packages:

Ship: Wind II
Class: SX-12
Type: Scout/Courier
Architect: Arcadia
Tech Level: 12

The Wind II is based on a variable-geometry ("swing-wing") scoutship design 
licensed from Delta Research.  This provides a compact and flexible 
platform for a long-range scoutship.  The variable geometry airframe 
improves atmospheric performance, useful to many missions.  The high-tech 
drive fit provides for Jump-3 and 2G maneuver.  Fuel for a total of 4 
parsecs is provided, allowing unrefuelled "out-and-back" operations over 2 
parsecs.

The ship can be operated by a crew of one, although two (pilot/navigator 
and engineer/gunner) are recommended.  A total of 5 staterooms are provided 
(two configurable for double occupancy), allowing a total crew of 7 for 
missions of a months' duration or less.  The 5.5 ton cargo bay is located 
adjacent to the air/raft hangar, and can be configured into a 1.5 ton cargo 
area and a 4 ton laboratory.

The ship as specified in the Data Package is unarmed and does not include 
any vehicles, but space and energy are reserved for one turret of any type 
and a four ton vehicle bay is standard.  Arcadia recommends either a triple 
laser turret or a laser/missile mix (laser for defense, and missile rack 
for launching recoverable survey probes) for the Federation's mission.

USP
          SX-13323S1-000000-00000-0 MCr 106.182 150 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 4
Bat                                TL: 12

Cargo: 5.500 Fuel: 64.500 EP: 4.500 Agility: 2
Craft: 1 x 4T Air/Raft
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Architects Fee: MCr 1.062   Cost in Quantity: MCr 84.946

Detailed Description
   HULL: 150.000 tons standard, 2,100.000 cubic meters, Cylinder
   CREW: Pilot, 3 Other Crew
   ENGINEERING: Jump-3, 2G Maneuver, Power plant-3, 4.500 EP, Agility 2
   AVIONICS: Bridge, Model/2bis Computer
   HARDPOINTS: 1 Hardpoint
   ARMARMENT: None (Empty Turret)
   DEFENCES: None
   CRAFT: 1 4.000 ton Air/Raft (cost not included)
   FUEL: 64.500 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
     On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant
   MISCELLANEOUS: 5.0 Staterooms, 5.500 Tons Cargo
   COST: MCr 107.244 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 1.062),
     MCr 84.946 in Quantity
   CONSTRUCTION TIME: 49 Weeks Singly, 39 Weeks in Quantity


Ship: Serpent II
Class: S-12
Type: Scout/Courier
Architect: Arcadia
Tech Level: 12

The Serpent II is based on a variable-geometry scoutship design licensed 
from Delta Research.  The TL-12 drive fit provides for Jump-3 and 2G 
maneuver, a considerable improvement over the Imperial Standard Type S in 
the same overall displacement.

The ship can be operated by a crew of one, although two (pilot/navigator 
and engineer/gunner) are recommended.  A total of 3 staterooms are provided 
(two configurable for double occupancy), allowing a total crew of 5 for 
missions of a months' duration or less.  The 4 ton cargo bay is located 
adjacent to the air/raft hangar, and can be configured into 4 ton laboratory.

The ship as specified in the Data Package is unarmed and does not include 
any vehicles, but space and energy are reserved for one turret of any type 
and a four ton vehicle bay is standard.  Arcadia recommends either a triple 
laser turret or a laser/missile mix (laser for defense, and missile rack 
for launching recoverable survey probes) for the Federation's mission.

USP
          S-13323S1-000000-00000-0 MCr 76.632 100 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 4
Bat                                TL: 12

Cargo: 4.000 Fuel: 33.000 EP: 3.000 Agility: 2
Craft: 1 x 4T Air/Raft
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Architects Fee: MCr 0.766   Cost in Quantity: MCr 61.306

Detailed Description
   HULL: 100.000 tons standard, 1,400.000 cubic meters, Cylinder
   CREW: Pilot, 3 Other Crew
   ENGINEERING: Jump-3, 2G Maneuver, Power plant-3, 3.000 EP, Agility 2
   AVIONICS: Bridge, Model/2bis Computer
   HARDPOINTS: 1 Hardpoint
   ARMARMENT: None (Empty Turret)
   DEFENCES: None
   CRAFT: 1 4.000 ton Air/Raft (cost not included)
   FUEL: 33.000 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
     On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant
   MISCELLANEOUS: 3.0 Staterooms, 4.000 Tons Cargo
   COST: MCr 77.398 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.766),
     MCr 61.306 in Quantity
   CONSTRUCTION TIME: 38 Weeks Singly, 30 Weeks in Quantity


Ship: Gig
Class: Gig
Type: Boat
Architect: Arcadia
Tech Level: 12

A standard TL-12 small craft, the Gig is useful for transporting small 
parties and limited amounts of equipment.

USP
          Z-0302201-000000-00000-0 MCr 6.850 10 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 6
Bat                                TL: 12

Cargo: 3.000 Fuel: 1.000 EP: 0.200 Agility: 2
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Architects Fee: MCr 0.069   Cost in Quantity: MCr 5.480


Ship: Modular Cutter
Class: Modular Cutter
Type: Boat
Architect: Arcadia
Tech Level: 12

A TL-12 variant of a popular Imperial design, licensed from Ling-Standard 
Products.  This design is compatible with all standard modules from LSP and 
third parties.  A wide variety of module designs are available, including 
several useful to exploration and scouting missions.  This variant includes 
4 acceleration couches in the cockpit, allowing mission specialists to 
operate survey modules.

USP
          Z-0304401-000000-00000-0 MCr 27.850 50 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 2
Bat                                TL: 12

Cargo: 33.500 Fuel: 2.000 EP: 2.000 Agility: 4
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Architects Fee: MCr 0.279   Cost in Quantity: MCr 22.280


Ship: Slow Shuttle
Class: Shuttle
Type: Boat
Architect: Arcadia
Tech Level: 12

A TL-12 vessel designed to maximize cargo capacity in a small craft.  The 
cargo hold of this vessel can also be used to transport fuel.  A total of 4 
acceleration couches are provided in the cockpit.

USP
          Z-0602601-000000-00000-0 MCr 66.945 99 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 2
Bat                                TL: 12

Cargo: 67.290 Fuel: 5.940 EP: 5.940 Agility: 2
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Architects Fee: MCr 0.669   Cost in Quantity: MCr 53.556


Ship: Fast Shuttle
Class: Shuttle
Type: Boat
Architect: Arcadia
Tech Level: 12

This TL-12 vessel is intended for use as a multi-role exploration 
platform.  It's 40 ton cargo bay can accept standard quarters or laboratory 
modules, and the ship is equipped with a RO/RO cargo ramp.  4 acceleration 
couches are installed in the cockpit, and 4 small craft staterooms are 
provided for extended accommodations.

USP
          Z-0106601-000000-10001-0 MCr 77.805 99 Tons
Bat Bear                   1   1   Crew: 2
Bat                        1   1   TL: 12

Cargo: 40.470 Fuel: 11.880 EP: 5.940 Agility: 4 Pulse Lasers
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Architects Fee: MCr 0.778   Cost in Quantity: MCr 62.244

-----8<-----

All of these designs are CT (Book 5), using High Guard Shipyard 1.01b013.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 13 23:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon May 13 22:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Lite
In-Reply-To: <200205131630530988.223DF0A5@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <000501c1fb08$f5e350f0$0b01a8c0@duck>

Since this idea might go somewhere, I wanted to put out what I thought
would be a good breakdown for Traveller Lite.  (I realize this is most
likely a useless exercise, but why not?  :-) )

I am using CT.  I am using the layout and organization of The Traveller
Book (TTB) as a guide.

Include the following information:
- INTRODUCTION
  - A shortened version of TTB's Introduction section.
- CHARACTERS
  - Characteristics
  - Skills and Expertise
  - Mustering Out
  - Aging
  - Career Types
  - Scout charts (no others)
  - Base skills; use only these:
    Admin, Bribery, Computer, Electronics, Engineering, Mechanical,
    Medical, Nav, Pilot, Streetwise, Vacc Suit, Brawling, Blade Combat,
    Gun Combat, Gunnery, Vehicle (Grav, ATV)
- PERSONAL COMBAT
  - A shortened version of TTB's Personal Combat section.
    The idea is to give enough to run a gun combat, but glossing
    over details like range, zero-G and morale.  Just do the to-hit,
    damage taking, damage giving.
- TRAVEL
  - The Travel section from TTB, but skip malfunctions.
- STARSHIP ECONOMICS
  - Describe a typical journey, but completely gloss over the cost
    issues.
- SHIP DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION
  - Completely skip the design and construction.
  - Provide three ships: Scout, Free Trader and Far Trader.  Far
    Trader can also be used as a Pirate ship.
  - Weaponry: only use laser and sandcasters.  Mention, but skip
    missles.
- COMPUTERS
  - Skip entirely.
- SPACE COMBAT
  - Give a shortened version.  Only use lasers and sandcasters.
    Keep movement abstract.  Just take turns shooting back and
    forth, but give opportunities to escape.
  - Skip computers.
- WORLDS
  - Describe how to read and use world information, but not
    how to generate it.
- ANIMAL ENCOUNTERS
  - Describe how to use animal encounter charts and animal
    statistics.
  - Mention events.
- ENCOUNTERS
  - Again, give the descriptions, but skip the various charts
    on how to generate the encounters.
- EXPERIENCE
  - Skip entirely.
- TRADE AND COMMERCE
  - Depending on space, this could be good to include (it is
    short), but could be deleted if needed.
- DRUGS
  - Skip entirely.
- EQUIPMENT
  - Only provide what is necessary for the included adventure.
- VEHICLES
  - Include the Air/Raft and ATV.
- PSIONICS
  - Skip entirely.
- BASIC TRAVELLER ACTIVITIES
  - Include it.
- REFEREE'S GUIDE TO ADVENTURING
  - Include it.
- INTO THE SUBSECTOR
  - Include it.
- SHADOWS
  - Include it.
- EXIT VISA
  - Skip it.
- TRAVELLER'S GUIDE TO THE UNIVERSE
- REGINA SUBSECTOR
- LIBRARY DATA
  - Include all three.
- PRE_GENERATED CHARACTERS
  - Include what is needed for any scenarios.
- ANIMAL ENCOUNTER TABLES
  - Include it.
- THE TRAVELLER SERIES
  - Give updated info.

That should give a good basis.  It lets you generate a scout
character, use a ship, get into some fights (both gun battles
and ship battles), have some adventures, wander around a
subsector and just get a good feel for the CT Universe.

It is, to a large extent, a whole game, but should tantalize
for more information.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 01:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue May 14 00:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Annual Maintenance
References: <F3AxCtuTRjtyntahJGy00011458@hotmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020511113227.0216d008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000201c1fb19$f3988de0$7800a8c0@imogen>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
> >(When talking about worlds TL typically refers to  TL  of  localy
> >produced goods, but when talking about  starports,  naval  bases,
> >and other facilities then TL refers to its capabilities ...  high
> >tech spare parts can always be imported.)
>
>  From
>
<http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/RPG/SV/FIC/TRAV/traveller_maintenace_blues.ht
ml>
>
> Chief Yard Dog: "We've completed your annual maintenance. The old
> girl was in pretty good shape except for a few things. Nothing we
> couldn't handle."
>
> Captain: "Problems? What kind of problems?"
>
> CYD: "Well your heat exchanger on the fuel purifier was on it's
> last legs. Accident waiting to happen really. I didn't have the
> exact replacement model available, but my guys fitted in a
> comparable unit.  You won't miss that tonne of cargo space
> anyway."
<snip>

Evil!  :->

But it raises the  issue  of  component  compatability.  Speaking
IMTU:  If you use contemporary desktop computer  architecture  as
a metaphor ... say Imperial TL15 is  like  PC  Pentium,  Imperial
TL14 is like PC 486, Imperial  TL13  is  like  PC  386,  etc  ...
Zhodani TL14 is like  iMac,  etc  ...  Then  a  large  number  of
manufacturers can make a wide range of  components  of  different
capabilities, and yet they can still be largely  compatable  with
each other.  Technical standards are one  of  the  advantages  of
membership is a large  interstellar  empire  like  the  Imperium.
Thus  your  scenario  only  becomes  likely  for  merchants   who
routinely spend long periods outside there own empire,  or  whose
ship was constructed on  an  independant  world.  Still  speaking
IMTU:   The  advantages  of  technical  standards  for   starship
components are reinforced of Imperial regulations.

From
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/idp.html

    Almost from the beginning, the Imperium  has  encountered
    the  problem  of  non-standard  technology.   Complicated
    devices, such as starships, were tied by their  need  for
    compatible spare parts to their world of origin.  To help
    rectify this the Ministry of Transport  routinely  issues
    Imperial Design Packages (or IDPs).

    IDPs  contain  information  aimed  at  standardising  the
    construction  of   starships,   spacecraft,   and   other
    vehicles. This information is broken down into  a  number
    of levels: 0 - Materials Specification,  1  -  Components
    Manufacture, 2 -  Subassembly  Designs,  and  3  -  Craft
    Blueprints.

    These  standards  are   encouraged   by   a   number   of
    regulations:  No tender for Imperial Navy or IISS vessels
    will be accepted that do  not  conform  to  IDP  level  2
    standards.  Special permits are required to  construct  a
    starship that does not meet level 1  standards,  and  any
    ship that does not comply with level 0 standards  may  be
    deemed unspaceworthy.  IDP level 3 is  purely  voluntary,
    but with 'free' blueprints and other financial incentives
    this is not a problem.

    Level 0 - MATERIALS SPECIFICATIONS
    At its lowest level the IDP's define the quality  of  the
    materials to  be  used.  Here  are  found  the  heat  and
    pressure requirements (as well  as  strength  and  safety
    tolerances) of the metals, plastics,  and  ceramics  that
    will go into the craft.

    Level 1 - COMPONENTS MANUFACTURE
    The materials defined in level 0 are forged into a myriad
    of components from light  switches  to  jump  grid  rods.
    Each must be standardised to allow for  easy  maintenance
    of ships away from their homeworld.

    Level 2 - SUBASSEMBLY DESIGN
    Between component level  and  complete  craft  there  are
    subassemblies  made  from  a  number  of  components  (as
    defined in level 1). Subassemblies may be beam lasers  to
    computers to iris hatches.

    Level 3 - CRAFT BLUEPRINTS
    At its highest level the IDPs provide complete blueprints
    for many standard craft  at  different  TLs.  The  Type-S
    Scout/Courier, the Type-A Free  Trader,  and  the  Type-C
    Cruiser, are but some of those found.



Regards PLST





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 02:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue May 14 01:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Annual Maintenance
In-Reply-To: <000201c1fb19$f3988de0$7800a8c0@imogen>
References: <F3AxCtuTRjtyntahJGy00011458@hotmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020511113227.0216d008@192.168.0.1> <000201c1fb19$f3988de0$7800a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <20020514183826.A31637@freeman.little-possums.net>

Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
[...]
>     This information is broken down into a number of levels: 0 -
>     Materials Specification, 1 - Components Manufacture, 2 -
>     Subassembly Designs, and 3 - Craft Blueprints.

Interesting.  IMTU, the most basic form of compatibility is at the
subassembly level.  Each subassembly has an Imperium-wide defined
"interface".  These interfaces include specification of dimensions,
tolerances, minimum environmental ranges, and functional requirements.

As an example, a LHyd pump (of a certain model class) can be made by
any manufacturer in any manner of whatever design and materials they
please, so long as it meets the minimum Imperial standards for that
class of equipment.  A ship making standard use of such a part can be
assured that any other manufacturer's pump can be substituted, and it
will fit into their machinery without modification.

One might be a TL7 device made with primitive metal alloys, based on
gross mechanical rotating parts, and requiring regular inspection and
application of suitable lubricants.  Another might be a TL15
atomically-precise device that will never need maintenance, and
internally uses artifical gravity fields to direct the flow.

Due to the Imperial standards, both have the same external connections
in the same places, will accept the same input and output signals, and
will deliver the same amount of LHyd.  One or both may have optional
extra features that are not part of the basic standard.  e.g. the TL15
one might additionally be able to do a micron-scale 3D isotopic map of
the material flowing through it.

The ship designer will choose whether the design calls for the maximum
possible compatibility, or whether it can use more stringent standards
suitable for maximum performance.  The latter will usually require
higher technology.


As you can imagine, this could easily become a bureaucratic nightmare.
When you add the special interests of particular megacorporations and
associated nobility, it only gets worse.  However, such unwieldiness
is partially countered by the very widespread availability of short
run manufacturing at moderately high tech levels, and Imperium-wide
distribution of petabytes of data via the X-boat network, containing
both the specifications and reference devices that meet those
specifications.  This means that any sufficiently capable starport
should be able to manufacture a replacement for anything covered by
the standards.

High-class starports in systems with low technology usually have large
imported autofactory units that can build anything in the database (up
to some maximum dimensions), taking longer for larger or more complex
assemblies.  When not in use for replacing ship systems, they are
often used as a (slow and expensive) source of high-tech goods for
local use -- usually with more than a little graft or outright bribery
involved.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 03:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue May 14 02:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <200205140018.GEX00216@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEMFHMAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> Well, I use vi at work, and I HATE IT.

I think it's great, but not for editing documents, only for
writing code and scripts over 2400 baud data lines to the middle
of the Gobi desert.

> But, it seems to work
> better than that fancy hodgepodge called Visual Cafe Studio
> (that, and I end up using Ant because every other method of
> building seems to s__k).

Try J-Builder, it lets you integrate with ant and any other
external tool, including CVS, java decompilers, etc.

I have a system currently that does the entire build and
deployment to a resin app server with a single button press from
within J-Builder 7 using ant, cvs, and javadoc, with ant
controlling it all.

Everyone I know lists either IBM's VIsual Age or J-Builder as the
best, and as IBM no-longer sell Visual Age as a seperate
development environment there is now really only one choice for
Java development.

> I've used ps formats before, but outside of a Unix box,
> virtually no one has a Postscript viewer (Ghostscript,
> anyone?).

It's around, but remember Postscript is as proprietary as Word,
and writing a viewer for it, or a tool that generate it, is only
possible because Adobe isn't actively preventing you.

> It can't be ASCII, since there will be some graphics in it.
> Speaking of that, I'm going to need an artist to do
> drawings.  I would ask my wife, but she's stuck doing faces -
> right now she's doing a pen and ink of Ian Anderson.
>
> In the end, I don't want the user to edit it.

Obviously not.

> It might be Acrobat, since the end users are likely to be
> able to get a copy of the reader regardless of their platform.

It is the best solution available at present, as it can be
generated using non-proprietary tools such as FOP, though again
these tools are reliant on Adobe not pursueing them, just as all
the Unix postscript generating tools are.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 03:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May 14 02:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Anti-Grav wackiness
In-Reply-To: <20020514073506.3E60C279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E177Yux-0003iy-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

Early on in CT antigrav was said to be TL 8, Perhaps it is, see:
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,52432,00.html

Not that I believe that silliness for a second, but the article is a fun 
read.  I do remember hearing about electrostatic propulsion back in 
the 1970s and wonder if this thing could be an example of that, or if 
it is simply a hoax.

Btw, does anyone know anything about electrostatic propulsion?


-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 03:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue May 14 02:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <200205132040.GEQ03641@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200205132040.GEQ03641@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ce0d992.5250869@post.demon.co.uk>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>The other is a one-shot, "we won't be seeing you for a=20
>hundred years" kind of colony.

>The latter requires that you carry everything you'll need for=20
>*more* than the shipped population for a hundred years or=20
>more. =20

That depends on the type of planet colonised.  If raw materials and
agricultural land are readily available and the colonists bring all
their capital plant with them, then presumably they could become self
sufficient fairly rapidly.

In the real world(s), of course, there will be factors working against
this:

Does the colonised planet actually have all the resources you will
need in an accessible form? (Traveller canon suggests this is unlikely
- otherwise why would there be so much trade?)

Can you afford to acquire and transport all the equipment that you
will actually need?=20

Can you recruit colonists with the exact balance of skills needed to
make the colony self-sustaining?  (Possible if you're recruiting your
world's best and brightest to explore the new horizon.  Less likely if
you're scraping together indentured servants, transported convicts,
political and religious refugees, etc.)

Can you keep this skill balance even in subsequent generations? (If
you can, that says something about your society's Control Rating and
views on conformity and freedom...)


Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> writes:

>Realistically, it's quite unlikely that a self-sufficient colony of =
1,000
>people is even possible past TL 4, though this depends on your =
definition of
>self-sufficient.  Minimum population to sustain the full range of modern
>non-leisure industries without external trade is probably somewhere on =
the
>order of 10 million people, with a setup cost of a couple trillion =
dollars.=20
>Minimum to create a colony capable of bootstrapping itself to TL 8 over =
a
>couple of generations is less clear, but probably 100,000+.

I think this is missing the point - the colony I described wasn't
"bootstrapping itself to TL 8", it was taking a TL 8 society along
with it in prefabricated form.  All that equipment was presumably
manufactured on the homeworld, which would be a fully functioning,
mature industrial society with millions or billions of population. A
high proportion of the output of the colony's heavy industry and
construction sectors would then be dedicated to renewing and exanding
its plant on an ongoing basis.

Also, the population balance clearly wasn't offering "the full range
of modern non-leisure industries" since the service sector accounted
for only 8% of the population.  I would think a colony of this size
would have an extremely "shallow" economy, without much
diversification - which, I agree, would make it vulnerable, but surely
not impossible.  There certainly wouldn't be anything like the range
of consumer goods you can buy in a mature TL8 society, since industry
would be devoted to essentials. =20

As for the 1,000 figure, my understanding is that that's the optimum
level from a sociological and biological point of view, based on human
communities in the past - you _can_ have a self-sustaining and healthy
population as low as 100, but only with very careful genetic screening
and centrally-planned reproduction.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 04:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Hopper)
Date: Tue May 14 03:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mundane Items
In-Reply-To: <E177Yux-0003iy-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020514101522.20406.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>


I recently received a copy of Dragon Magazine #51 from
ebay. It had several CT articles in it, but the one
that I had ignored when I first read it at age 12 is
now the one that I consider the best at age 33. It is
called "The Miller Milk Bottle" by Marc Miller and it
is all about, milk bottles and their uses. 

I started thinking about the mundane items that
adventurers tend to use that there aren't any listings
for. What are some of the things that your own players
have used that are very common, but aren't listed?

I'll start with my own. Duct Tape 

Duct Tape: Polymer based lengthwise reinforced cloth
with an adhesive backing that sticks to most surfaces.
The tape is easy to tear across the width, but not
along the width and is often used as a temporary patch
for leaks or ruptures. Can be used as a binding when
handcuffs are not available (Strength check against TL
of tape to break, +1 to difficulty per meter of tape
used). Can be used to emergancy patch a vacc suit or
to hold on a pressure bandage over a wound. Available
in 100 meter rolls, each weighing 0.5 kilograms. First
found at TL 4. Price: Cr 2.5 per roll.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 05:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue May 14 04:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Higher Tech Doesn't Mean Better - It Often Means Worse
Message-ID: <200205141102.GFS01988@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Frank Pitt" writes
>Try J-Builder, it lets you integrate with ant and any other
>external tool, including CVS, java decompilers, etc.
>

If you've ever used VisualAge for Smalltalk, you would hate 
using Java itself, or any Java tool. IBM just released 6.0.  

If you've ever used Envy as a code repository, you would 
think that CVS or any of the text-based version control 
systems were stone age.

Ever wonder where the idea of extreme programming came from?  
It didn't come from Java development shops.

Now that I run a J2EE shop, I feel as though I was sent 
backwards 10 years in time.  We experience problems daily 
that *do not exist* in the Smalltalk environment.

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 05:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue May 14 04:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <m3d6vzxsu8.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020513231600.01a06eb0@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020513165615.00b93010@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020513153248.00b91c20@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020513153248.00b91c20@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020513165615.00b93010@urbin.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020513231600.01a06eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020514074301.01b66008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:21 PM 5/13/2002 -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> > >But locks one into a proprietary writable format and a read-only
> > >format.
> > Not for the author.
>Even for him.  Edit a file in Word this year, and there's no guarantee
>that several years down the line one will still be able to do
>_anything_ with it.

Please, I'm as big a fan of FUD concerning Mickeysoft as the next soph, but 
this just doesn't fly.
I have word files from 5-6+ years ago and Word2K reads 'em just 
fine.  Backwards compatibility with the flagship word processor is the one 
thing they've done right.  Now I might have a problem with a WordXP file, 
but then the author could save in Word2K format or RTF or text.
The GM for a PBEM game has the Lotus/IBM word processor and we send each 
other files in native format and have no problems reading them on our 
respective word processors

>And, even as an author, why release uneditable files?  If one cares
>about modified copies floating about, simply prohibit distribution of
>modified copies.  But don't mistreat your readers by preventing them
>from making their _own_ modifications!  After all, if they may not
>distribute them then it cannot hurt you, and can only help them.

I believe that in this case, the author has expressed a desire to release 
in PDF.



----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang
of neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty
smack habits and opposable thumbs. -- www.monkeybagel.com
----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 06:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue May 14 05:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Anti-Grav wackiness
In-Reply-To: <E177Yux-0003iy-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020514123739.82810.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

--- sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Early on in CT antigrav was said to be TL 8, Perhaps
> it is, see:
>
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,52432,00.html
> 
> Not that I believe that silliness for a second, but
> the article is a fun 
> read.  I do remember hearing about electrostatic
> propulsion back in 
> the 1970s and wonder if this thing could be an
> example of that, or if 
> it is simply a hoax.
> 
> Btw, does anyone know anything about electrostatic
> propulsion?
> 
> 
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
> 
  >>
  http://www.americanantigravity.com
  
   MACessna
  >>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 06:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue May 14 05:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <3ce00cc9.5070061@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020514124845.10368.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Stephen Tempest <tml@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<...SNIPPIT...>
> 
> I've just been through the World Tamer's Handbook
> and came up with the
> following requirements for a self-sufficient
> industrial TL 8 colony of
> 1,000 people:
> 
<...SNIPPIT...>
> Agriculture: 10% (produces enough food for 1,400
> people)
<...SNIPPIT...>

I would think you would want to bring more agri
workers along.  Is the 1,400 for optimal (baring
famine or insects) or average?

I would think that the food stores would have to be
enough to last at least 1 growing season.  Although
some plants will yeild food in a few weeks or months,
I don't think the colony would want to depend on that
for their food too soon.

After the first year, they wouldn't want to depend
first on their agri then on their stores, only hitting
the stores when necessary.  That means that if we only
have 10% agri produce food for 1,400 people, that
means we can only have 400 babies born until they are
old enough to add to the agri workers.  even with
child labor, that is 400 births every 5-8 years.  That
is a very low birth rate for a colony.

I would think the colony would want to be able to feed
at least 2000 mouths.

Just my thoughts.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 06:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue May 14 05:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Lite
In-Reply-To: <200205131707350413.225F87F6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20020514125419.11198.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Hunter Gordon <trav@RPGRealms.com> wrote:
<...SNIPPIT...>
> was not immediately opposed). The main thing is not
> to give away to much. Personally I'd like to see one
> based on CT (and thus an intro to T5 also) and one
> for T20.

Plus, if done well, it will additionally help the sale
of the reprints, which, in turn, will fund (or feed)
Marc while he works on other projects.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Tue May 14 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Red Dwarf
In-Reply-To: <20020513230548.53e20f24e6ff41d3b4bc287cf4082472.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205140556260.6413-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Mon, 13 May 2002, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> >QUOTE
> >The Spinward Marches Entertainment Group/Heavy
> >Equipment Architects Group (SMEG/HEAD) is pleased to
> >announce the launching of a new class of ship.
> >END QUOTE
> >
> >What about the Red Dwarf class mining vessel?
> >Whistling: It's cold outside theres no kind of
> >atmosphere.........
>
> Only if the lovely Kristine Kochanski is abroad.  There is not much point
> otherwise.

Of course she's a "broad" - just don't let Lister hear you call her that.

:)

Rob



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 07:17:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Tue May 14 06:17:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Annual Maintenance
In-Reply-To: <20020514183826.A31637@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205140612190.6413-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Tue, 14 May 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

> Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
> [...]
> >     This information is broken down into a number of levels: 0 -
> >     Materials Specification, 1 - Components Manufacture, 2 -
> >     Subassembly Designs, and 3 - Craft Blueprints.
>
> Interesting.  IMTU, the most basic form of compatibility is at the
> subassembly level.  Each subassembly has an Imperium-wide defined
> "interface".  These interfaces include specification of dimensions,
> tolerances, minimum environmental ranges, and functional requirements.

(Not a CORBA/COM programmer are you? ;)

> [elided]
>
> One might be a TL7 device made with primitive metal alloys, based on
> gross mechanical rotating parts, and requiring regular inspection and
> application of suitable lubricants.  Another might be a TL15
> atomically-precise device that will never need maintenance, and
> internally uses artifical gravity fields to direct the flow.

I'd expect there would be certain minimum tech level requirements for
some parts - it's possible that the interface for some components or
subassemblies is too complex for/intolerant of lower tech manufacturing
limitations.

Rob



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 07:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Tue May 14 06:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAOEMFHMAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205140617000.6413-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Tue, 14 May 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:

> John T. Kwon wrote :
> > Well, I use vi at work, and I HATE IT.
>
> I think it's great, but not for editing documents, only for
> writing code and scripts over 2400 baud data lines to the middle
> of the Gobi desert.

<shatner> must -  resist - OT - posting ... </shatner>

[darn, failed willpower check]

I wanted to like vi when I saw what some other vi users could do
with it, but dislike it for most jobs - however, when telneting
in over a relatively slow line, I really like vi, even over my
preferred Emacs.  It just seems faster/easier for small editing
jobs, which I believe is what it was designed for.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 13:08:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue May 14 12:08:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Fratricide, and modelling the Fog of War
Message-ID: <200205141720.GGG00101@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Just reading some notes on how to minimize fratricide, and 
they list two causes that stand out in my mind for Traveller 
parties: high weapon lethality and unseasoned leaders (not 
that there aren't other causes).  The classic example being 
fusion guns in the hands of some scouts and merchants.

I'm wondering how some of you out there model target 
identification and spotting, and what effect this has on a 
party's ability to avoid a fratricidal situation.  Has 
fratricide ever occurred in any campaign setting you've 
played?

I'm not counting intentional fratricide...
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 13:10:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue May 14 12:10:41 2002
Subject: [TML] An interesting real-life NPC
Message-ID: <200205141822.GGI00385@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Put this one somewhere in your campaigns:

'In "Sniper," the Canadian  Broadcasting  Corporation  
interviewed a woman from Sarajevo, formerly a markswoman in  
European and Olympic competitions, who was waging a private 
war amidst Sarajevo's disintegrating order. Her actions were  
independent and uncontrolled, influenced by her daily efforts 
to survive and the targets presented by opportunity.' 

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 13:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Tue May 14 12:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: ISSDEC: May Competition Entry
Message-ID: <F15934zvktaAtySQHAD00014915@hotmail.com>

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> wrote:
<some snippage>
>Ship: Discovery
>
>HULL
>20,000.000 tons standard, 280,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure
>
>CRAFT
>2 150 ton Wind IIs (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 84.946),
>2 100 ton Serpent IIs (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 61.306),
>2 10 ton Gigs (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 5.480),
>2 50 ton Modular Cutters (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 22.280),
>2 30 ton Cutter Modules (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 0.000)
>
>FUEL
>8,800.000 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
>No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

How does the Discovery do wilderness refueling?  A dispersed
structure hull needs a fleet tanker, a starbase, or organic
fuel shuttles to keep those tanks full - the small craft
complement will take a long time to do the job.  Or did I
miss something?

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 13:15:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue May 14 12:15:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Major SOP changes
Message-ID: <200205141414.GFY07680@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was making more changes and additions to the SOP 
(tentatively titled The Traveller Guide To Small Unit 
Combat), and it's grown since I last distributed the initial 
chunk.  I am now at 300 pages.  I'm not sure how much I can 
edit this down, although there is some duplication.  I don't 
want to leave out or really shorten the parts on patrolling 
or urban combat (most Traveller combat is in a built-up area -
 either on ship or in buildings).

I've also put in a part about boarding in zero-G.

Are most sourcebooks background material only, or do most of 
them make direct reference to game mechanics?
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 13:17:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Tue May 14 12:17:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Traveller Lite
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01140701@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

--=_IS_MIME_Boundary
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

The Traveller Lite idea was pitched to Marc before, by me - when T4 first came out...  I had proposed it as way to get a lot of action going at Gaming Conventions.

Good to see the idea come back, and even better to see The Traveller Book being used as the basis. TTB is one of the tightest designed RPG books ever produced - if HG had been used as the ship design system, I'd probably use ONLY that book as my Traveller game rules.


DonM.
______
Donald McKinney
Winter War Convention Chairman
I'm at work, sorry for the disclaimer...
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 13:19:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue May 14 12:19:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Completely OT: Hey, Jesse...
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3702@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

ROFL!!!
Jesse


>Unfortunately, no :(  I still haven't recovered enough financially from my 
>un-employed stint at the end of last year to be able to afford to go 
>up.  I'm getting major withdrawl symptoms!!!  On the bright side, maybe by 
>the time I can afford to go up again the '16 will be fixed :)~

The 16 being fixed is one of the signs of the Apocolypse.

--

Douglas E. Berry

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 13:21:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Tue May 14 12:21:25 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
Message-ID: <RELAY1RxI8mSipv5nyI00003a6d@relay1.softcomca.com>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:

> At 02:50 PM 5/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > Unfortunately, no :(  I still haven't recovered enough financially
> > from my un-employed stint at the end of last year to be able to
> > afford to go up.  I'm getting major withdrawl symptoms!!!  On the
> > bright side, maybe by the time I can afford to go up again the '16
> > will be fixed :)~
>
> The 16 being fixed is one of the signs of the Apocolypse.

No.  When the '16 is fixed *AND* the '21 runs smoothly, *that*
is a sign of the Apocalypse. :^)

    - Mark C.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 13:23:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue May 14 12:23:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <3ce0d992.5250869@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1021393399.113.ajackson@ping>

Stephen Tempest writes:

> I think this is missing the point - the colony I described wasn't
> "bootstrapping itself to TL 8", it was taking a TL 8 society along
> with it in prefabricated form.  All that equipment was presumably
> manufactured on the homeworld, which would be a fully functioning,
> mature industrial society with millions or billions of population. A
> high proportion of the output of the colony's heavy industry and
> construction sectors would then be dedicated to renewing and exanding
> its plant on an ongoing basis.

Ok, then you need the 10 million or so figure.  The lower figure assumes you're
only sending _essential_ industries, which can build the rest.> 
> Also, the population balance clearly wasn't offering "the full range
> of modern non-leisure industries" since the service sector accounted
> for only 8% of the population.  I would think a colony of this size
> would have an extremely "shallow" economy, without much
> diversification - which, I agree, would make it vulnerable, but surely
> not impossible.  There certainly wouldn't be anything like the range
> of consumer goods you can buy in a mature TL8 society, since industry
> would be devoted to essentials.  

There are a lot of critical industries where scale effects are such that you'd
pretty much need more than your entire population base dedicated to that
industry to maintain the industry.  Electronics springs to mind.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 13:25:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue May 14 12:25:46 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC:  May Last chance
Message-ID: <20020514164611.61518.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

This is a reminder.  As of midnight tomorrow, the
design competition will be completed.  Please get all
designs in by tomorrow evening.

Thanks,
Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 13:29:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue May 14 12:29:57 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3706@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Too true :D
Jesse


> The 16 being fixed is one of the signs of the Apocolypse.

No.  When the '16 is fixed *AND* the '21 runs smoothly, *that*
is a sign of the Apocalypse. :^)

    - Mark C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 14:53:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue May 14 13:53:10 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Traveller Lite
In-Reply-To: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01140701@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>
Message-ID: <20020514205204.34547.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

The Traveller Lite idea was pitched to Marc before, by
me - when T4 
first came out...  I had proposed it as way to get a
lot of action going 
at Gaming Conventions.

Okay, I'm a little lost or out of the loop or
something. What is "The Traveller Book?"

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 15:00:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue May 14 14:00:11 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0205091602300.10041-100000@sephiroth.byte-me.org>
Message-ID: <20514.133033.8C7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>         To everyone else who replied, thanks for all the info.  I've 
> already read Book 1 and Book 4, and am slowly sifting through everything 
> else.  I could probably live my life quite well without the starship 
> rules, but I'm aching for the game setting info that I fear is hiding 
> somewhere in book two or three.

Original Traveller (like original D&D) was "create your own setting".
There were rules for creating random subsectors. And you took it from
there.

-- 

Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 15:27:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue May 14 14:27:09 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC: May Competition Entry
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508121752.020ea8c0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <3CE17FDF.7ED27C85@mindspring.com>

Derek Wildstar wrote:

> Arcadia Construction and Shipbuilding ("Arcadia") of Glisten <snip>

Arcadia Construction and Shipbuilding has offices in Glisten City, Porfiru, and
its home office in Paladia. Keep locating things in Glisten, Flesh out the grab
more.

http://www.spinwardmarches.com

Glisten/Glisten/SM



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
I used to be Snow White -- but I drifted.
                               Mae West



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 15:52:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue May 14 14:52:12 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
Message-ID: <memo.404135@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B905A3FC.5B4DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Speaking as a webhead, a sysadmin & someone very happy with Linux...

I'd choose PDF any time for document distribution PROVIDED I intended 
people to print out the document. If I expect them to read it on screen, 
I'd go for HTML.

Preferably, I dual-present: a web page for people to read on screen, with 
a 'Click HERE to print this out' which calls the PDF.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 16:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue May 14 15:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Annual Maintenance
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205140612190.6413-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020514183826.A31637@freeman.little-possums.net> <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205140612190.6413-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020515075840.A693@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rob Davenport wrote:
[... Imperium-standard 'interfaces' ...]
> (Not a CORBA/COM programmer are you? ;)

No, though I'm not above stealing ideas :)


> I'd expect there would be certain minimum tech level requirements
> for some parts - it's possible that the interface for some
> components or subassemblies is too complex for/intolerant of lower
> tech manufacturing limitations.

Oh certainly -- the sterling example would be jump drive modules.
IMTU, they can be produced by class A starports anywhere -- but may
take quite a long time indeed to manufacture at some ports.  The usual
maximum is jump-3 at commercial ports.

On top of which, low-tech backwater systems might not have personnel
fully trained in the fitting and calibration of really high-tech or
uncommon parts.  They'll do a workable job in almost all cases, but
you would be well advised to proceed to a better equipped station for
full testing and proper integration.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 16:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue May 14 15:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <memo.404135@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020514225409.E176F279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/14/02 at 10:44 PM,  mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) said:

>In-Reply-To: <B905A3FC.5B4DA%webmaster@travellercentral.com> Speaking
>as a webhead, a sysadmin & someone very happy with Linux...

>I'd choose PDF any time for document distribution PROVIDED I intended
> people to print out the document. If I expect them to read it on
>screen,  I'd go for HTML.

>Preferably, I dual-present: a web page for people to read on screen,
>with  a 'Click HERE to print this out' which calls the PDF.

And that's an excellent idea! 

Of course, if you want to disallow user-editing and/or unlimited
document copying, presenting in html won't really do. You can do both
with PDF if you want to.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 18:19:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May 14 17:19:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Fratricide, and modelling the Fog of War
In-Reply-To: <200205141720.GGG00101@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B906F757.5B802%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/14/02 10:20 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> I'm wondering how some of you out there model target
> identification and spotting, and what effect this has on a
> party's ability to avoid a fratricidal situation.  Has
> fratricide ever occurred in any campaign setting you've
> played?
> 

It's my experience that the party tends to stay together so that this is not
much of a problem.  But there have been accidents.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 18:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue May 14 17:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Book (was RE: Traveller Lite)
In-Reply-To: <20020514205204.34547.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1fba5$ff013790$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Okay, I'm a little lost or out of the loop or
> something. What is "The Traveller Book?"

CT was present in three main forms:
- As Books 1, 2 and 3
- As The Traveller Book
- As Starter Traveller
(There were some variations in the first and third forms.)

The "improvements" of The Traveller Book and Starter Traveller
was that setting information was included.  I never had Starter
Traveller, so I can't comment directly on it.

However, The Traveller Book contained the equivalent of
Books 1-3, plus Book 0.  It also included some Patrons (from
76 Patrons) and Amber Zone and two short Adventures (Shadows
and Exit Visa).  It also included some general library data,
a Regina subsector map and library data for Regina.  All in
a single bound book.

It is still my favorite packaging of Traveller.

They had intended to produce the Books in a series.  So,
there would have been The Traveller Book, The Traveller
Adventure, The Traveller Aliens, etc.  Only the first two
were made before GDW decided to switch formats.

The new format was Starter Traveller.  The Alien Modules,
Tarsus and Beltstrike were all in the new style.

I don't know why they abandoned the "Book" format for the
"Starter" format.  My guess is that the Books included too
much information, and the Starter format let them cut things
up more (and keep prices down).

Uh, did that answer your question?  :-)

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 18:25:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May 14 17:25:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1021393399.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B906F8CD.5B807%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/14/02 9:23 AM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> 
> There are a lot of critical industries where scale effects are such that you'd
> pretty much need more than your entire population base dedicated to that
> industry to maintain the industry.  Electronics springs to mind.

Still, a fairly decent technology could be supported from a small population
base.  If one identified technologies that would be difficult to support on
could bring more spares. Assuming a decent survey of the target worlds
showed adequate supplies of raw materials, machine tools could be
manufactured fairly easily using machine tools brought along.  Some
petrochemical processes can be scaled down fairly easily.

Price points won't be much of an issue, if it's required by the colony.
Much of the advantage of scale efficiencies has to do with cost. Making
things cheaper to stay cost competitive won't be an issue.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Tue May 14 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Traveller Lite
In-Reply-To: <20020514205204.34547.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMOEAJDOAA.tml@jtas.org>

http://24.58.52.232/websites/bibliography/gdw-ct/TTBsoft.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Daniel Tackett
>
> Okay, I'm a little lost or out of the loop or
> something. What is "The Traveller Book?"




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 18:33:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue May 14 17:33:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <B906F8CD.5B807%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1021422724.1051.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> Still, a fairly decent technology could be supported from a small
> population base.  If one identified technologies that would be difficult
> to support on could bring more spares. Assuming a decent survey of the
> target worlds showed adequate supplies of raw materials, machine tools could
> be manufactured fairly easily using machine tools brought along.  Some
> petrochemical processes can be scaled down fairly easily.

In many cases, you can easily have a sufficient reserve that the colony doesn't
really need to worry on the short term (as in, 50-100 years), but the colony
will have to grow fast enough that by the time its reserves give out the colony
can produce replacements.
> 
> Price points won't be much of an issue, if it's required by the colony.
> Much of the advantage of scale efficiencies has to do with cost. Making
> things cheaper to stay cost competitive won't be an issue.

A colony has limited total production ability; below a certain point,
production will fall below the required level for maintenance, and the colony
will gradually fall apart.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 18:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue May 14 17:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Baycon Party
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205141744050.3475-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

There will be a party at BayCon.  The BayCon hotel liaison told Pierce
Nichols and myself that they will definitely give us a room so we are
going to have the party.  PASS IT ON!!!

We decided today that since we both have more money than we thought we
were going to have, and the normal hosts of the party can't manage it this
year, we would rescue the Traveller party tradition at BayCon.  If anyone
would like to help us out by donating food and sodas, or bringing
decorations, please let me know.

There WILL be a party.

It will just not be Doug and Kirsten giving the party this time.

I hope everyone is OK with this.  I know we should have said something
before now, but we didn't know how broke we were not going to be and
neither of us could do it alone but together, I think we can do it!

I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes by doing this, but we've been
having too much fun to not keep having it.  For once I am not broke, and
while I am sorry that everyone else is, maybe I can pay back a little.

Love,
Kiri (and Pierce, but this is my email account) ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 19:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Aleo)
Date: Tue May 14 18:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller in San Diego
Message-ID: <B906B645.1F4A%jaleo@southweststrategies.com>

Hello!

I was wondering if there is anyone on the list who is from San Diego.  I'm
itching to GM a game and I am looking for players.

-King Dub


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 19:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue May 14 18:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fratricide, and modelling the Fog of War
In-Reply-To: <B906F757.5B802%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020515012155.3371C279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/14/02 at 05:18 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 5/14/02 10:20 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

>> I'm wondering how some of you out there model target
>> identification and spotting, and what effect this has on a
>> party's ability to avoid a fratricidal situation.  Has
>> fratricide ever occurred in any campaign setting you've
>> played?

>It's my experience that the party tends to stay together so that this
>is not much of a problem.  But there have been accidents.

Yeah, like when one PC, already half-blinded by capstun, fires blindly
into a pile of people at a certain Viking night held recently on
Regina Up?  Yeah, you *could* call that an accident. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 20:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue May 14 19:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <20020514225409.E176F279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <memo.404135@cix.compulink.co.uk> <20020514225409.E176F279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020515120836.A1177@freeman.little-possums.net>

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Of course, if you want to disallow user-editing and/or unlimited
> document copying, presenting in html won't really do. You can do
> both with PDF if you want to.

Actually no, you can't do either.  Copying is trivial, and editing is
not much more difficult to do to a 'protected' PDF than to an
unprotected one.  (Though rather difficult in both cases)


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 20:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue May 14 19:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC: May Competition Entry - Corrections
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020514220417.02f8c9d0@mail.qrc.com>

Arcadia Construction and Shipbuilding ("Arcadia") regrets to announce that 
due to an engineering oversight, there was an error in the Slow Shuttle 
data package.  This error was noted when preparing the Discovery II option 
(detailed below) for the Federation.  The power plant from the Fast Shuttle 
design was inadvertently specified in the Slow Shuttle, increasing cost and 
fuel consumption while reducing cargo space.  The corrected Slow Shuttle 
carries 83 tons of cargo, and costs MCr 25.044 in quantity.

In addition, Arcadia would like to offer a variant of the Discovery class 
exploration starship proposed in the previous submission.  Several 
reviewers have noted that refuelling operations on the Discovery class 
requires approximately 35 skimming runs by the ship's carried craft to load 
a full complement of fuel.  Arcadia analysts believe this to be acceptable, 
since the Discovery has a 2000 ton fuel reserve (sufficient for J-1 or 70 
days endurance).

However, the modular design of the Discovery class ships, made possible by 
the dispersed structure "open frame" design, allows easy variation to 
accommodate different mission profiles.  The Discovery II class, detailed 
below, replaces one of the ship's jump fuel modules with two ton dock 
modules and a filler module containing additional cargo and habitation 
space.  One dock module carries another set of scoutships, doubling the 
vessel's exploration capacity.  The other dock module serves four Slow 
Shuttles configured as fuel skimmers.  This skimming capacity allows the 
Discovery II to be fully refuelled with just 10 skimming runs (using the 
scoutships and fuel shuttles) or 20 trips (using just the fuel shuttles).

The Discovery II shares the same features as the Discovery, including 
habitability for long duration missions, extensive laboratory and shop 
facilities, plus cargo space for stores and trade goods.  Also common to 
the Discovery series vessels is a state of the art (TL-12) avionics and 
computer system, and a backup computer and bridge.  The backup bridge can 
be configured as an operations center, increasing the ability of the ship 
to control complex survey and science operations.

Ship: Discovery II
Class: Discovery II
Type: Explorer
Architect: Arcadia
Tech Level: 12

USP
          SB-L7324F3-090006-678C4-0 MCr 16,654.204 20 KTons
Bat Bear             1   2 12211   Crew: 254
Bat                  1   2 12211   TL: 12

Cargo: 1,493.000 Fuel: 6,800.000 EP: 800.000 Agility: 0
Shipboard Security Detail: 20
Craft: 4 x 150T Wind II, 4 x 100T Serpent II, 6 x 10T Gig, 6 x 50T Modular 
Cutter, 6 x 30T Cutter Modules, 4 x 99T Slow Shuttle
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/2bis Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 158.025   Cost in Quantity: MCr 13,493.712

Detailed Description

HULL
20,000.000 tons standard, 280,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure

CREW
21 Officers, 233 Ratings

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 2G Maneuver, Power plant-4, 800.000 EP, Agility 0

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/6fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/2bis Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
Spinal Mount, 4 100-ton bays, 2 50-ton bays, 19 Hardpoints

ARMARMENT
Meson Gun Spinal Mount (Factor-C),
2 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bays (Factor-8),
2 50-ton Fusion Gun Bays (Factor-7),
4 Triple Missile Turrets in 1 Battery (Factor-4),
5 Triple Beam Laser Turrets in 1 Battery (Factor-6)

DEFENCES
2 100-ton Repulsor Bays (Factor-6),
10 Triple Sandcaster Turrets in 1 Battery (Factor-9)

CRAFT
4 150.000 ton Wind IIs (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 84.946),
4 100.000 ton Serpent IIs (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 61.306),
6 10.000 ton Gigs (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 5.480),
6 50.000 ton Modular Cutters (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 22.280),
6 30.000 ton Cutter Modules (cost not included),
4 99.000 ton Slow Shuttles (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 25.044)

FUEL
6,800.000 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
508.0 Staterooms, 1,493.000 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr 15,960.485 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 158.025),
MCr 12,641.968 in Quantity, plus MCr 851.744 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
172 Weeks Singly, 138 Weeks in Quantity

-----8<-----

CORRECTION: Slow Shuttle

USP
          Z-0602201-000000-00000-0 MCr 31.305 99 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 4
Bat                                TL: 12

Cargo: 83.130 Fuel: 1.980 EP: 1.980 Agility: 2
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Architects Fee: MCr 0.313   Cost in Quantity: MCr 25.044


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 21:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May 14 20:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3706@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <B9071EBF.5B84A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/14/02 12:26 PM, DeGraff, Jesse at Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com wrote:

> Too true :D
> Jesse
> 
> 
>> The 16 being fixed is one of the signs of the Apocolypse.
> 
> No.  When the '16 is fixed *AND* the '21 runs smoothly, *that*
> is a sign of the Apocalypse. :^)

Well, If Jesse is bailing, I may pass on the fun shoot this year.  My
pending paperwork didn't come through, despite a 5 month wait, so I'd only
have the subgun this year anyway.  You guys must come up for the December
shoot though.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 21:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue May 14 20:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: ISSDEC: May Competition Entry
In-Reply-To: <F15934zvktaAtySQHAD00014915@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020514225228.02f9ce18@mail.qrc.com>

At 11:04 AM 5/14/2002, you wrote:
>How does the Discovery do wilderness refueling?

The Discovery can be thought of as a "mobile base", and given it's high 
fuel reserve and long mission, refuelling should be an occasional operation 
(probably less than once a month).  It's worth noting that the Stellar 
Federation's requirements did not include a refueling, mobility or reaction 
time specification.  If the modular cutters are equipped with skimming 
modules, the cutters and carried starships can completely refuel the 
Discovery with 30 skimming runs from each vessel.  More usual refueling to 
top off the tanks would require 8 skimming runs per carried vessel per 
parsec jumped.

I just posted a variant, the Discovery II, that trades the fuel reserve for 
considerably more carried craft (and much better organic skimming 
capabilities).  Organic refueling of any of the Discovery series can be 
improved by swapping any or all of the 100 ton S-12 "Serpent II" scoutships 
for 99 ton Slow Shuttles.  This reduces the ship's survey effectiveness 
(and costs one ton of wasted space), but there are no other design 
implications to the Discovery for such a swap.

For example, a Discovery (base model) with two slow shuttles vice the 
S-12's can completely refuel in 25 runs (or 6 runs per parsec jumped), 
while a Discovery II with a total of eight slow shuttles can refuel itself 
in 11 skimming runs using just the shuttles.  The use of fuel shuttles on 
the Discovery II also frees up the spare module docks for the modular 
cutters; since fuel modules are not required,  a wider variety of modules 
can be carried.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 21:16:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jedidia Bowman)
Date: Tue May 14 20:16:07 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Book (was RE: Traveller Lite)
In-Reply-To: <000001c1fba5$ff013790$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <000001c1fbbf$73e38360$01617043@jbathome>

-I don't know why they abandoned the "Book" format for the
-"Starter" format.  My guess is that the Books included too
-much information, and the Starter format let them cut things
-up more (and keep prices down).

Actually the Starter format makes things more expensive[1] for
the users (and therefore more profitable for the producer).  When
it comes to motives, take a clue from the detectives, follow the
money.

I must be Travelling,
Jason

IMTU tc+ ?tm ?tn t4+ tg to ru ge++ !3i c+(-) jt au+ ?st ls pi+ ta+
 he+ kk++ hi+ as++ va ++ ?dr ?ith ?vr ?ne so zh vi+ ?da sy-
Jason Barnabas 0609 A7335880 he+ kk++ hi+ as++ va++ A924

[1] While the publications in the "Book" format cost more per
    unit, you get more Traveller per dollar for your purchase.
    A classic case of efficiency of scale.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 21:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue May 14 20:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC: May Competition Entry
In-Reply-To: <3CE17FDF.7ED27C85@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508121752.020ea8c0@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020514231433.01f6c3c8@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:21 PM 5/14/2002, you wrote:
>Arcadia Construction and Shipbuilding has offices in Glisten City, 
>Porfiru, and its home office in Paladia. Keep locating things in Glisten, 
>Flesh out the grab more.

Don't forget - both Bilstien Yards (canon) and Jonathan Laird & Company 
(created by me to flesh out Arcadia's shipbuilding capabilities) have yards 
somewhere in the Belt.  Since you've given Arcadia three offices, I'd 
suggest that one of those is located adjacent to one of Bilstien's yard 
complexes, and another is conveniently nearby to the Laird shipyard.  Both 
would be for project management of ships under construction.

Since it would make sense to locate Arcadia's "front office" and primary 
customer contact site in Glisten City, that would put Bilstien in either 
Porfiru or Paladia (and Laird in the other location).  What say we locate 
Bilstien in Porfiru, and place Laird's yard in Paladia?

For whatever it's worth, Bilstien is a "premier" shipbuilder; they prefer 
to do custom designs, luxury yachts, and other high-quality, big-ticket 
items (including a floating palace for a certain local religious 
dictatorship).

I see Laird as a well-established and competent firm (probably noted more 
for the durability of their hulls than the elegance of the brightwork and 
high gloss of the finish).  Laird is also not above building a ship without 
asking too many questions about unusual design features - such as a 
"dispatch ship" that looks suspiciously like it could be easily refit into 
a small commerce raider.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 22:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mitch Haggman)
Date: Tue May 14 21:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1021422724.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0205142040070.24223-100000@sephiroth.byte-me.org>

	My two cents (keep in mind I'm the 'new guy' without a lot of 
Traveller-specific sci-fi knowledge under my belt):

	All of this talk assumes enough diversity of resources on the 
planet to be colonized to warrant a full colonization effort.

	If a planet is only good for one thing (mining, farming, etc) then 
it may not be worth the investment of creating the industries required for 
self-sufficiency (to maintain life, or maintain tech level) on that 
planet.  How many times has the concept of the 'mining colony' popped up 
in science fiction?  I'd wager that most colonization efforts would start 
with a very narrow industry in mind, with supplies necessary for life 
being ferried in on all those cargo ships lining up to take resources 
offworld.  The initial colonization effort would therefore not require any 
items required for self-sufficiency other than water purifiers and 
emergency rations.  Given enough generations of trade and continued 
healthy economics, a colony of this nature would likely diversify on its 
own.

	I've already forgotten the start of this thread, though, and we 
may be discussing entirely self-sufficient colonies specifically, in which 
case I've got nothing useful to add.

	-Mitch

On Tue, 14 May 2002, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Tod Glenn writes:
> > 
> > Still, a fairly decent technology could be supported from a small
> > population base.  If one identified technologies that would be difficult
> > to support on could bring more spares. Assuming a decent survey of the
> > target worlds showed adequate supplies of raw materials, machine tools could
> > be manufactured fairly easily using machine tools brought along.  Some
> > petrochemical processes can be scaled down fairly easily.
> 
> In many cases, you can easily have a sufficient reserve that the colony doesn't
> really need to worry on the short term (as in, 50-100 years), but the colony
> will have to grow fast enough that by the time its reserves give out the colony
> can produce replacements.
> > 
> > Price points won't be much of an issue, if it's required by the colony.
> > Much of the advantage of scale efficiencies has to do with cost. Making
> > things cheaper to stay cost competitive won't be an issue.
> 
> A colony has limited total production ability; below a certain point,
> production will fall below the required level for maintenance, and the colony
> will gradually fall apart.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

-- 
"By god, I wish these calculations had been executed by steam."
	-Charles Babbage, 1821



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 22:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue May 14 21:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Book (was RE: Traveller Lite)
In-Reply-To: <000001c1fbbf$73e38360$01617043@jbathome>
Message-ID: <000301c1fbc5$448f5de0$0b01a8c0@duck>

> -I don't know why they abandoned the "Book" format for the
> -"Starter" format.  My guess is that the Books included too
> -much information, and the Starter format let them cut things
> -up more (and keep prices down).
> 
> Actually the Starter format makes things more expensive[1] for
> the users (and therefore more profitable for the producer).  When
> it comes to motives, take a clue from the detectives, follow the
> money.

Sorry for not being clear.  I meant keep prices down on individual
units.  Obviously, this will be *more* expensive for customers as
you have to buy more units.

For example, if they had made The Traveller Aliens, it would
likely include 90% the contents of Alien Modules 1-7.  (They
could cut some of the library data, language stuff, expanded
character generation and adventures as necessary to make stuff
fit.)  It would have been probably priced the same as three
of the Modules.

So, if they had done The Traveller Aliens, it would have been
more expensive as a unit, but the Alien Modules make more
money for GDW.

Again, sorry for not being clear on that.

All that being said, I wish they hadn't figured it out until
*after* The Traveller Aliens.  And The Traveller Campaign.  I
wonder what that Campaign was going to be ... 

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 22:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Tue May 14 21:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Book (was RE: Traveller Lite)
In-Reply-To: <000301c1fbc5$448f5de0$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEAODOAA.tml@jtas.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mike West

> So, if they had done The Traveller Aliens, it would have been
> more expensive as a unit, but the Alien Modules make more
> money for GDW.

That book _was_ published. 100 units. In Germany?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 14 23:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ted Lindsey)
Date: Tue May 14 22:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller in San Diego
Message-ID: <823E42A1A121C04687C78532E353095B01471D@atlantis.tedlindsey.com>

I'm in San Diego but I won't have time to participate for a while since
my wife and I just had our first baby. Maybe in a few months (I hope).
;)

- Ted Lindsey

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Aleo [mailto:jaleo@southweststrategies.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 12:41 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Traveller in San Diego


Hello!

I was wondering if there is anyone on the list who is from San Diego.
I'm itching to GM a game and I am looking for players.

-King Dub

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 00:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David & Kristin Larson)
Date: Tue May 14 23:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fratricide, and modelling the Fog of War
Message-ID: <000001c1fbd5$eae58240$0300000a@c263000a>

>on 5/14/02 10:20 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

>> I'm wondering how some of you out there model target
>> identification and spotting, and what effect this has on a
>> party's ability to avoid a fratricidal situation.  Has
>> fratricide ever occurred in any campaign setting you've
>> played?

I've played this a few times, usually ending friendly casualties (at least
serious wounds and more than one death). Generally I ignored it unless the
party split up and there was no clear plan for fire control (generally no
plan at all). Just limit the information given to the players. As they
realize that glimpses of 'targets' and snap-shots are all they're likely to
get (and those glimpses are shooting too), players tend to become freer with
fire until someone pokes an eye out.

Why is it that players who know better in RealLife (tm) always seem to be
the first one to forget lessons learned in the field? Why do soldiers let
their characters man LP/OPs alone and then investigate snapping-twig-sounds
by walking into the dark to check it out? Just wondering...

David Larson
dlarson@blarg.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 00:05:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (King Dub)
Date: Tue May 14 23:05:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller in San Diego
In-Reply-To: <823E42A1A121C04687C78532E353095B01471D@atlantis.tedlindsey.com>
Message-ID: <B907471D.546B%kingdub@mac.com>

Thanks for responding.  I'll keep you in mind.  Can you suggest anyone else
in the San Diego area who might be interested?

-King Dub

on 5/14/02 9:58 PM, Ted Lindsey at ted@tedlindsey.com wrote:

> I'm in San Diego but I won't have time to participate for a while since
> my wife and I just had our first baby. Maybe in a few months (I hope).
> ;)
> 
> - Ted Lindsey
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Aleo [mailto:jaleo@southweststrategies.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 12:41 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Traveller in San Diego
> 
> 
> Hello!
> 
> I was wondering if there is anyone on the list who is from San Diego.
> I'm itching to GM a game and I am looking for players.
> 
> -King Dub
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 00:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jedidia Bowman)
Date: Tue May 14 23:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller back from San Diego
In-Reply-To: <823E42A1A121C04687C78532E353095B01471D@atlantis.tedlindsey.com>
Message-ID: <000101c1fbda$f7a1c160$c4617043@jbathome>

As some of you already know, I'm not in San Diego.  I'm back in
Sacramento sans boat and sans more money than I would like, but
with a job.  I've even got a few adventure stories to tell and
haven't given up on my dream of owning a big deep bellied blue
water sailing vessel.

I must be Travelling,
Jason

IMTU tc+ ?tm ?tn t4+ tg to ru ge++ !3i c+(-) jt au+ ?st ls pi+ ta+
 he+ kk++ hi+ as++ va ++ ?dr ?ith ?vr ?ne so zh vi+ ?da sy-
Jason Barnabas 0609 A7335880 he+ kk++ hi+ as++ va++ A924




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 01:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Wed May 15 00:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [TravellerinSF] Baycon Party
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020514185807.00a1bcb0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205150019020.5208-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 14 May 2002, Kirsten M. Berry wrote:

> At 05:53 PM 05/14/02, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> 
> >There WILL be a party.
> >
> >It will just not be Doug and Kirsten giving the party this time.
> >
> >I hope everyone is OK with this.
> 
> I certainly am...and I'll be happy to loan you the CDs I burned for last 
> year's party.  (Doug may still have a poster for the door, too....)
> 
> Thank you for picking up the ball and running with it, Kiri-chan.  I've 
> really been feeling at loose ends this year, knowing I won't even be 
> staying at the con hotel - but it's nice to know the regulars won't be let 
> down.

THANKS!!!  Where will you be?  We will be looking for you.  And I will
take you up on all these offers.

I may also buy a cake for the party.  My birthday is the Thursday before
Baycon. <G>

Kiri  ^_^

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 02:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Wed May 15 01:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Higher Tech Doesn't Mean Better - It Often Means Worse
In-Reply-To: <200205141102.GFS01988@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIENIHMAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John T. Kwon Wrote :
> "Frank Pitt" writes
> >Try J-Builder, it lets you integrate with ant and any other
> >external tool, including CVS, java decompilers, etc.
>
> If you've ever used VisualAge for Smalltalk,

I have.

> you would hate  using Java itself, or any Java tool.

Nope, I left the horror of Smalltalk for the clean efficiency of
Java.
<grin>

> IBM just released 6.0.
>
> If you've ever used Envy as a code repository, you would
> think that CVS or any of the text-based version control
> systems were stone age.

Never seen Envy, VASmalltalk would only work with TeamConnection
when we were using it and it was far too slow and didn't do
deltas properly, and wouldn't give you proper access to the
source code at the file level, storing it all in an object
oriented database.

> Ever wonder where the idea of extreme programming came from?
> It didn't come from Java development shops.

I know where extreme programming came from, I have spoken
alongside Kent Beck at a conference, had dinner with him, and was
part of one of the few training institutions allowed to actually
teach the process.

As most of the patterns that Kent used originally came from C++
projects through John Coplien, John Vlissides and Richard Helm at
IBM, among others, one could argue that it was C++ that formed
the eXtreme Programming best practices.

> Now that I run a J2EE shop, I feel as though I was sent
> backwards 10 years in time.  We experience problems daily
> that *do not exist* in the Smalltalk environment.

And in Smalltalk you experience all sorts of problems that do not
exist in the Java environmment. I'm sure I don't need to point
them out to you if you have actually used it in anger. Basically,
all languages have problems, and Smalltalk has just as many as
any other language.

There have been three projects I have worked on in the last five
years that involved re-writing an existing VA Smalltalk
application that wouldn't work on any reasonable hardware, to
either Java or C++. All three were while I was working for IBM
when we had full access to the VA Smalltalk development team.

I'm not saying I'd never use it again, and it may well have got
better, but like all tools,  it's only approrpiate in some
circumstances

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 04:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed May 15 03:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Player...
References: <20020515024012.2C1D4279CF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1fbfe$a6991600$7f5d8690@computer>

From: Leonard Erickson
> Original Traveller (like original D&D) was "create your own setting".
> There were rules for creating random subsectors. And you took it from
> there.

That was, of course, one of the most fun things about it.  While I am very
fond of the OTU, and obviously it was necessary for it to exist, homebrew
universes are really interesting.

I'm working on a homebrew sector at the moment.  I've generated it randomly,
and now I'm adjusting anything I don't like, while attempting to keep the
tweaking "invisible".  Once I've done that for one or two more subsectors,
I'll be able to start drawing the boundaries of the pocket empires that are
going to be in there.  There will be lots of non-aligned, relatively
sparsely populated and lowish-tech worlds around them, where each sides'
merchants will be able to cut each others' throats in peace. Then I will be
able to start adding extra details on the Pocket Empires, important worlds,
major corporations, NPCs, ships...

Hours and hours of fun, basically.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 07:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Wed May 15 06:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] District 268/A thought
In-Reply-To: <3CE03C9F.28536.29796A5@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0205151458510.355058-100000@alderamin>

On Mon, 13 May 2002 timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:

><color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>Hi all
>
>
>My little conversation with Allen reminded me of the landgrab.
>
>I went back to check out the landgrab page and noticed that 10 out
>of the 32 systems there are claimed.  This is a pretty good number
>and was wondering if any of you working on a District 268 would
>like to get together and compare notes.  If you are just email me
>and we will try to organize things

I have parts of Kwai Ching up at my web page (for link look below).

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
     Cambridge, USA           [tgrav@cfa.harvard.edu]




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 07:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed May 15 06:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fratricide
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA227E3@USCHM203>

>"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
>  Has 
>fratricide ever occurred in any campaign setting you've 
>played?

	I haven't had any player characters kill each other, but they've
killed or injured friendly NPCs by firing carelessly or blasting anything
that moves. They cry foul of course, but after a while they start being more
careful about firing FGMPs and throwing grenades in enclosed spaces. I've
also had mercenary groups bombarded by poorly directed orbital and artillery
fire. Most of my players come from a hardcore wargaming background, but in
most wargames friendly fire is rarely an issue (this is less true with
computer games than the old cardboard and dice games---one example being
Steel Panthers, where troops can and sometimes do get strafed by their own
planes or hit with their own artillery).
	Either way, it's a wakeup call, adds a touch of realism, and can
serve as a rude surprise to trigger-happy players. A great book on the
subject, covering basically the entire history of warfare from Greek
phalanxes to Desert Storm, is "Blue on Blue: A History of Friendly Fire" by
Geoffrey Regan. In nearly all cases the problem is human error.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 07:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed May 15 06:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Book (was RE: Traveller Lite)
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMKEAODOAA.tml@jtas.org>
Message-ID: <000401c1fc13$a9c51c10$0b01a8c0@duck>

> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Colin
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mike West
> 
> > So, if they had done The Traveller Aliens, it would have been
> > more expensive as a unit, but the Alien Modules make more
> > money for GDW.
> 
> That book _was_ published. 100 units. In Germany?

From what I understand, there was a compilation of the Alien
Modules done in Germany.  I have no idea what language it was
done in; I have never seen it or images of it.  (Actually, if
anyone has it, I would like to know what it contained and what
language it was done in.  Just curious.)

It wasn't hypothetical The Traveller Aliens that I was refering
to.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 07:38:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed May 15 06:38:06 2002
Subject: [TML] IISDEC entry
Message-ID: <3CE30D8C.19866.CE32A5@localhost>

Something urgent has come up and I'm going to be away for 
awhile. I owe some people replies but I'm afraid they'll have to wait. 
More annoying is I'm not going to get my IISDEC ship finished. 
However I've posted it here.

Ship: Shannon
Class: Shannon
Type: Exploration Cruiser
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 12
Rule Set: T20

USP
         CX-K4345F3-471106-87408-0 MCr 14,207.138 15KTons
Bat Bear             E   1 111 4   Crew: 209
Bat                  E   1 111 4   TL: 12

Cargo: 543.120 Fuel: 5,250 EP: 750 Agility: 4 Shipboard Security 
Detail: 15
Craft: 1 x 100T Piker class Scout, 4 x 30T Datum class Shuttles, 8 
x 12.2T Tri class Lifeboats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Jump 1 Drive 1 x Model/4 Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 140.671   Cost in Quantity: MCr 11,393.713


Detailed Description

HULL
15,000.000 tons standard, 210,000.000 cubic meters, Close 
Structure Configuration

CREW
20 Officers, 189 Ratings

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 4G Manuever, Power plant-5, 750.000 EP, Agility 4
1 Jump-1 Backup

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/6fib Computer, Model/6 Flight Avionics, Model/6 
Sensors, Model/6 Maser Communications
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/4 Backup Computer, 1 Model/4 Backup 
Flight Avionics, 1 Model/4 Backup Sensors, 1 Model/4 Backup 
Maser Communications

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay, 6 50-ton bays, 80 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
1 50-ton Particle Accelerator Bay (Factor-4), 4 50-ton Missile Bays 
(Factor-8), 1 50-ton Fusion Gun Bay (Factor-7), 10 Triple Beam 
Laser Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-8)

DEFENCES
1 100-ton Repulsor Bay (Factor-6), 70 Triple Sandcaster Turrets 
organised into 14 Batteries (Factor-7), Nuclear Damper (Factor-1), 
Meson Screen (Factor-1), Armoured Hull (Factor-4)

CRAFT
1 100.000 ton Piker class Scout (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 61.706), 4 
30.000 ton Datum class Shuttles (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 10.338), 
8 12.200 ton Tri class Lifeboats (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 4.619)

FUEL
5,250 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
214 Staterooms, 4 Engineering Shops, 4 Vehicle Shops, 8 
Laboratories, 4 Sick Bays, 2 Autodocs, 100 Tons of Missile 
Magazines (holding 2000 missiles), 543.120 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 14,207.800 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 140.671), MCr 
11,253.703 in Quantity, plus MCr 140.010 of Carried Craft 
(Hardpoints and Turrets charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
167 Weeks Singly, 134 Weeks in Quantity

Class: Piker
Type: Scout

USP
         EX-16323S1-030000-10001-0 MCr 68.232 100 Tons
Bat Bear             1     1   1   Crew: 4
Bat                  1     1   1   TL: 12

Cargo: 4 Fuel: 33 EP: 3 Agility: 2 Pulse Lasers
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 0.682   Cost in Quantity: MCr 54.586


Detailed Description

HULL
100.000 tons standard, 1,400.000 cubic meters, Flattened Sphere 
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner, 2 Other Crew

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 2G Manuever, Power plant-3, 3.000 EP, Agility 2

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/2bis Computer, Model/2 Flight Avionics, Model/2 
Sensors, Model/2 Maser Communications

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Mixed Turret with: 1 Pulse Laser (Factor-1), 1 Missile Rack 

(Factor-1).

DEFENCES
1 Sandcaster in the Mixed Turret, organised into 1 Battery (Factor-
3)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
33 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
4 Staterooms, 4 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 68.914 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.682), MCr 54.586 
in Quantity (Hardpoints and Turrets charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
38 Weeks Singly, 30 Weeks in Quantity

Class: Datum
Type: Shuttle

USP
         YS-0602211-030000-00001-0 MCr 12.985 30 Tons
Bat Bear             1         1   Crew: 1
Bat                  1         1   TL: 12

Cargo: 10 Fuel: 0.600 EP: 0.600 Agility: 2
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.130   Cost in Quantity: MCr 10.388


Detailed Description

HULL
30.000 tons standard, 420.000 cubic meters, Flattened Sphere 
Configuration

CREW
Pilot

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 2G Manuever, Power plant-2, 0.600 EP, Agility 2

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/1 Computer, Model/1 Flight Avionics, Model/1 
Sensors, Model/1 Communications

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Dual Mixed Turret with: 1 Missile Rack (Factor-1).

DEFENCES
1 Sandcaster in the Mixed Turret, organised into 1 Battery (Factor-
3)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
0.600 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1 Small Craft Stateroom, 13 Acceleration Couches, 0.60 Ton of 
Missile Magazines (holding 12 missiles), 10 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 13.115 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.130), MCr 10.388 
in Quantity (Hardpoints and Turrets charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
16 Weeks Singly, 13 Weeks in Quantity

Class: Tri
Type: Lifeboat

USP
         YL-0602201-000000-00000-0 MCr 5.774 12.2 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 1
Bat                                TL: 12

Cargo: 0.004 Emergency Low: 8 Fuel: 0.244 EP: 0.244 Agility: 2
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.058   Cost in Quantity: MCr 4.619


Detailed Description

HULL
12.200 tons standard, 170.800 cubic meters, Airframe Flattened 
Sphere Configuration

CREW
Pilot

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 2G Manuever, Power plant-2, 0.244 EP, Agility 2

AVIONICS
No Bridge Installed, Model/1 Computer, Model/1 Flight Avionics, 
Model/1 Sensors, Model/1 Communications

HARDPOINTS
None

ARMAMENT
None

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
0.244 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1 Acceleration Couch, 1 Low Berth, 8 Emergency Low Berths, 
0.004 Ton Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 5.832 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.058), MCr 4.619 in 
Quantity (Hardpoints and Turrets charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
6 Weeks Singly, 5 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The Phoenix Corporation's latest design is intended to fufil the role 
of long range space exploration. The class is designed to remain 
on patrol for up to five years. The crew is provided with double sized 
accomodations to facilitate crew comfort and the ample cargo 
space allows neccessary food stuffs and maintaince supplies to be 
carried.

The ship features backups of a number of critical systems (namely 
jump drive, bridge and avionics) allowing for (albeit highly unlikely) 
catastrophic failure beyond the borders of civilised space. The ship 
also features sufficent lifeboat space to allow for complete 
evacuation in the event of disaster.

An unusual feature is the inclusion of a 100Td jump capable scout, 
allowing the investigation of systems not on the ships immediate 
itinery.


Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 08:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed May 15 07:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Deckplan Article
In-Reply-To: <3CD9730B.9998061D@premier.net>
References: <3CD9730B.9998061D@premier.net>
Message-ID: <20020515161110.16fe714f.jenry023@student.liu.se>

John Groth wrote:
> The following URL was posted to the Starship/Vehicle Design board on
> JTAS.  While the article is specifically aimed at the Star Wars setting,
> it does have plenty of useful advice for deckplans for any SFRPG,
> including Traveller.
> 
> http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/deckplan/deckplan.html

Very nice, thanks for the link!

I am, as always, confused by the ratio of corridors to "useable" rooms in
Traveller ships. Is there any good, fast, and simple rule of thumb for
this?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 08:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Wed May 15 07:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Traveller Lite
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMOEAJDOAA.tml@jtas.org>
Message-ID: <20020515141417.18882.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Colin <tml@jtas.org> wrote:
> http://24.58.52.232/websites/bibliography/gdw-> >
Okay, I'm a little lost or out of the loop or
> > something. What is "The Traveller Book?"
> 
> Oh, hmm never seen that one. I thought you guys
might be talking about the large black book that came
out after the LBBS.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 08:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed May 15 07:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Sword world inspiration
In-Reply-To: <20020513184333.18F64279F2@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205151614400.15626-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Mark Urbin writes:
>At 06:47 PM 5/13/02 +0200, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>Mark Urbin writes:
>
>>Beyond that any similarity
>>is no more than the similarity between any two SF settings.
>
>The Piper Sword Worlds were founded by folks on the losing side of war who
>went way, way out to colonize rather than surrender.
>The Traveller Sword Worlds were founded by folks who went way, way out to
>colonize.  I *think* this was during the Long Night period.

Sure, but that was something added 23 years later.

>The original question was why are the Sword Worlds so popular.  My answer
>was that the popularity came from H. Beam Piper's "Space Viking" book.

Then I didn't see the original question. All I saw was your claim that the
TU Sword Worlds were based on Piper's Sword Worlds. I've yet to see any
evidence of that.

>I have always found it to be good Traveller fodder.  An exact match?  Not
>that I ever claimed.  *The* inspiration for Traveller? Nope, didn't say
>that either.

Didn't say you did. What I thought you said was... well, see  above.

>There are a lot of things in "Space Viking" that can be cut and paste[d]
>directly into a Traveller campaign.

Sure. But GDW didn't do that. All they did was use the concept of a group
of worlds named after swords.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 09:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Wed May 15 08:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Book (was RE: Traveller Lite)
In-Reply-To: <20020515141720.EA7D0279F7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1fc22$29967b60$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
<Snip>
> 
> All that being said, I wish they hadn't figured it out until
> *after* The Traveller Aliens.  And The Traveller Campaign.  I
> wonder what that Campaign was going to be ... 
> 
Wasn't that 'The Traveller Adventure?'

Andy

 --
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi              Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)	  	
 United Arab Emirates           +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 09:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Wed May 15 08:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Traveller Lite
In-Reply-To: <20020515141417.18882.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEBFDOAA.tml@jtas.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Daniel Tackett
 > Oh, hmm never seen that one. I thought you guys
> might be talking about the large black book that came
> out after the LBBS.

There was a hard cover version of it, which was black, but it had a dust
jacket that looked just like the cover in that photo. Were you thinking of
the hard cover, or was it a soft cover, "biggie digest" sized thing like
this: http://24.58.52.232/websites/bibliography/gdw-ct/StarterDeluxe.html

That is from the Starter Traveller box circa 1983.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 09:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed May 15 08:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <20020514124845.10368.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020514124845.10368.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3ce27277.10152631@post.demon.co.uk>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:

>I would think you would want to bring more agri
>workers along.  Is the 1,400 for optimal (baring
>famine or insects) or average?

Average - according to the WTH rules, a year's production can vary by
20% either way (barring disasters).  Also, I was assuming average soil
quality - if the colonists picked the most fertile spot on the planet
to settle, they could double their food production.  They could also
get a 25% increase by going for more capital-intensive farming (more
expensive).

Basically, I needed to choose a figure for % of the population engaged
in each sector, and I knew there were arguments for and against
anything I picked...

>That means that if we only
>have 10% agri produce food for 1,400 people, that
>means we can only have 400 babies born until they are
>old enough to add to the agri workers.  even with
>child labor, that is 400 births every 5-8 years.  That
>is a very low birth rate for a colony.

Call it 50 babies per year (400 in 8 years) from a population of 1000?
That's a higher birthrate than Bangladesh, Mexico, Nigeria or the
Philippines (to pick 4 countries at random).  It's four times the
birthrate in Britain.  I suppose the question comes back to, are you
founding your colony with 500 young men and 500 young women all of
reproductive age, or are you sending a cross section of the
population?  - in which case new adult workers will be coming into the
workplace constantly.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 09:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed May 15 08:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C370F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Believe me, I'm tryin' :)
Five months & still no paperwork?  Sheesh...

Jesse


Well, If Jesse is bailing, I may pass on the fun shoot this year.  My
pending paperwork didn't come through, despite a 5 month wait, so I'd only
have the subgun this year anyway.  You guys must come up for the December
shoot though.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 09:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May 15 08:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Encumbrance rules - and the practicality of certain equipment
Message-ID: <200205151557.GHY05785@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Given the weight in kg of certain types of armor, especially 
combat armor, is this sort of thing practical?

There's a lot of data in real life as to what constitutes 
excessive encumbrance for a soldier.  There are also 
published guidelines as to the "ideal" fighting load.  Not 
that the Army didn't pack it on like I was a mule...

In a firefight, however, there's a distinct advantage to 
being able to run around quickly, without being quickly 
exhausted.  

Since combat armor is not "powered", the only way I could see 
getting around the exhaustion and encumbrance would be to 
have a grav belt.

Encumbrance in RL is very, very real and cannot be ignored.  
Exhaustion due to encumbrance is also very real, and has a 
much harsher effect than I've seen in simulation rules.

I've been playing around with some rules for my private 
combat system, and if I make the rules approach reality for 
encumbrance and exhaustion, people in combat armor get 
exhausted very, very quickly.  So help me out - how do those 
stormtroopers do it IYTU?
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 10:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed May 15 09:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Encumbrance rules - and the practicality of certain
 equipment
In-Reply-To: <200205151557.GHY05785@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B907D7AB.5B8EF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/15/02 8:57 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> In a firefight, however, there's a distinct advantage to
> being able to run around quickly, without being quickly
> exhausted.  
> 
> Since combat armor is not "powered", the only way I could see
> getting around the exhaustion and encumbrance would be to
> have a grav belt.
> 
> Encumbrance in RL is very, very real and cannot be ignored.
> Exhaustion due to encumbrance is also very real, and has a
> much harsher effect than I've seen in simulation rules.
> 
> I've been playing around with some rules for my private
> combat system, and if I make the rules approach reality for
> encumbrance and exhaustion, people in combat armor get
> exhausted very, very quickly.  So help me out - how do those
> stormtroopers do it IYTU?

A lot will depend on how much combat armor really masses, how well the
weight is distributed and how much time troops spend wearing it.  Recall
that medieval knight routinely fought on horse or foot in full plate armor.
I would hope that combat armor was lighter and better designed.  Certainly,
troops in armor will tire faster than troops without.  This may in fact have
a pronounced effect of the character of combat.  Commanders will have to be
cognizant of the fatigue factor, and plan around it, much as they have to in
situations requiring MOPP gear.

Physical fitness will be more of a factor in the ability of troops to
conduct operation, and engagements are probably going to be periods of sharp
combat punctuated by long periods of rest and static defense.  Also, light
infantry operations won't be conducted by armored troops. A high level of
mechanization will help to ameliorate the effect of armor.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 10:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed May 15 09:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C370F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <B907D823.5B8F0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/15/02 8:48 AM, DeGraff, Jesse at Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com wrote:

> Believe me, I'm tryin' :)
> Five months & still no paperwork?  Sheesh...

Yeah.  They says it's a backup from Sept 11.  Class 3 background checks are
lowest priority and they're still dealing with a whole slew of applications
that were contaminated with anthrax.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 10:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed May 15 09:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3710@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I figured the post 9/11 part, but anthrax too?  Bloody hell...
Jesse


Yeah.  They says it's a backup from Sept 11.  Class 3 background checks are
lowest priority and they're still dealing with a whole slew of applications
that were contaminated with anthrax.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 10:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed May 15 09:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Book (was RE: Traveller Lite)
Message-ID: <200205151130.AA19071180@caddocourt.com>

From: "Andrew Long" <AndrewGLong@yahoo.com>
>> From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
>> All that being said, I wish they hadn't figured it out until
>> *after* The Traveller Aliens.  And The Traveller Campaign.  I
>> wonder what that Campaign was going to be ... 
>> 
>Wasn't that 'The Traveller Adventure?'

No.  In the "Promo" page in TTB, it listed The Traveller Adventure,
The Traveller Starfleets and The Traveller Campaign.  We have an idea
of what would have been in The Traveller Starfleets (from various sources), but I wonder what The Traveller Campaign was going to be.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 12:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed May 15 11:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Book (was RE: Traveller Lite)
Message-ID: <F241o11vCdFCCT8WEVR000166e5@hotmail.com>

From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>

     "In the "Promo" page in TTB, it listed The Traveller Adventure,
The Traveller Starfleets and The Traveller Campaign.  We have an idea
of what would have been in The Traveller Starfleets (from various sources), 
but I wonder what The Traveller Campaign was going to be."


Mr. West,

     Oh, drat!  What a tease!  Please tell me what would have been in The 
Traveller Starfleets.  Please, please, please?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen, hopping up and down on one foot


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 12:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (King Dub)
Date: Wed May 15 11:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Space Opera
In-Reply-To: <F241o11vCdFCCT8WEVR000166e5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B907F154.1FBD%kingdub@mac.com>

Just out of curiosity, are there any Space Opera players out there?

-King Dub


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 12:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed May 15 11:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Book (was RE: Traveller Lite)
Message-ID: <200205151314.AA86442160@caddocourt.com>

>     "In the "Promo" page in TTB, it listed The Traveller Adventure,
>The Traveller Starfleets and The Traveller Campaign.  We have an idea
>of what would have been in The Traveller Starfleets (from various sources), 
>but I wonder what The Traveller Campaign was going to be."
>
>     Oh, drat!  What a tease!  Please tell me what would have been in The 
>Traveller Starfleets.  Please, please, please?

Oops, I am sorry.  I didn't mean to imply that level of knowledge.  What I meant was that we (Traveller fans in general) have an idea (a good guess) of what would have been in The Traveller Starfleets (from what was published instead).  I did NOT mean to imply I had any special knowledge about its intended contents.

I am terribly sorry for conveying the wrong impression.  (My use of written communication can be weak at times.)

My guess is that it would have included ships taken from The Spinward Marches Campaign, Supplement 9 and various Alien Modules.  Then be organized so that an overview of sorts could be provided for the fleets of the Imperium, Zhodani, Aslan, Vargr and Solomani.  I don't know if they would have done the K'kree or Hiver since there is so little emphasis on them in CT.

Again, sorry for giving the wrong impression.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 12:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May 15 11:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Space Opera
Message-ID: <9b.277a00dd.2a140086@cs.com>

--part1_9b.277a00dd.2a140086_boundary
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King Dub writes:


> Just out of curiosity, are there any Space Opera players out there?
> 
> -King Dub
> 
> 
I've got all the books, just haven't found anyone willing to spend five hours 
working up characters. Besides, I like Traveller, in most of its 
incarnations, much better.

Doug Grimes


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>King Dub writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Just out of curiosity, are there any Space Opera players out there?
<BR>
<BR>-King Dub
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I've got all the books, just haven't found anyone willing to spend five hours working up characters. Besides, I like Traveller, in most of its incarnations, much better.
<BR>
<BR>Doug Grimes
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_9b.277a00dd.2a140086_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 12:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Wed May 15 11:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Space Opera
Message-ID: <E1783PV-0007JV-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

> Just out of curiosity, are there any Space Opera players out there?
>=20
> -King Dub
>=20
Have not played in ages but yes.

Beth

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 12:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May 15 11:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Space Opera
Message-ID: <20020515182857.UXJR3893.lakemtao05.cox.net@smtp.central.cox.net>

yes> 
> From: King Dub <kingdub@mac.com>
> 
> Just out of curiosity, are there any Space Opera players out there?
> 
> -King Dub
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 13:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Wed May 15 12:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
Message-ID: <RELAY3mHA0n5LWwVQar000061f4@relay3.softcomca.com>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:

> Well, If Jesse is bailing, I may pass on the fun shoot this year.
> My pending paperwork didn't come through, despite a 5 month wait,
> so I'd only have the subgun this year anyway.  You guys must come
> up for the December shoot though.

At the risk of whizzing in your punch bowl, unless there are some
significant changes, there won't *BE* a winter shoot (or a spring
shoot next year, or any time after that.)

I've been running this monster for over 7 years now and it's becoming
a nightmare.  I need 59 volunteers, working half-day slots (7 AM - noon
and 11 AM - 4 PM), or half that many working *all* day, for each day
of the two day event.  That's a total of 118 volunteers, each doing a
half day of work.  Most of the folks that volunteer do at least one
full day, and many of my diehard workers put in the entire weekend
(for which I'm eternally grateful.)  However, as of yesterday, I still
have almost two dozen critical positions left unfilled.  You'd think
that, with a total membership of almost 700 shooters, I could get at
least that many.  Instead, it's like trying to pull teeth and I've
had to resort to begging for volunteer labor from *outside* the club.

This is not the first time this has happened, but it is by far the
worst that the problem has ever been.  I've already given the club's
executive committee notice: if member participation doens't improve
toot-sweet, I quit.  That will drop the club's anual revenue by
$6,000 - $8,000.

They say, "Money talks."  I hope that speaks loudly enough. :^(

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 13:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed May 15 12:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3713@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Serious bummer...Yeah, you'd *think* with 700 members you could get more volunteers >:(

<snip>
They say, "Money talks."  I hope that speaks loudly enough. :^(

    - Mark C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 13:53:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May 15 12:53:20 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
Message-ID: <200205151950.GIG05327@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

markc says
>However, as of yesterday, I still have almost two dozen 
>critical positions left unfilled.

It's really a bad thing that I don't live where you are.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 15:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed May 15 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Traveller Book (was RE: Traveller Lite)
Message-ID: <F2346ovEaIhYXEFk1iC00006f30@hotmail.com>

From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>

     "Oops, I am sorry.  I didn't mean to imply that level of knowledge."


Mr. West,

     Mea culpa, sir.  Looking back over the thread, I evidently read more 
into the posts than was actually there.
     As for your writing style, you shouldn't have any worries.  The fault 
lay not in your prose, but rather in the foggy Whipsnadian filter I 
processed it through.

     "I am terribly sorry for conveying the wrong impression."

     Tut tut.  It was my gaffe, made in woolyheaded eagerness, and not 
yours.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 15:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Malone)
Date: Wed May 15 14:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Space Opera
References: <B907F154.1FBD%kingdub@mac.com>
Message-ID: <003601c1fc59$8b0a9520$f17054d2@1338700057>

King Dub said:


> Just out of curiosity, are there any Space Opera players out there?
>
Still have most of the books, but haven't played since the late 1980s.  The
game I SM'd was something of a SO/Aftermath hybrid using D20, since the
skill system in SO was effectively no system at all.

J.M. Malone


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 16:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Wed May 15 15:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Encumbrance rules - and the practicality of certain equipment
Message-ID: <20020515220641.90172.qmail@web10606.mail.yahoo.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:

     "Since combat armor is not "powered", the only
way I could see getting around the exhaustion and
encumbrance would be to have a grav belt."

Well the rules before always (unrealistically IMO) had
"clothing" (which even included armor) NOT counting
against load/encumbrance (which is an abstraction
anyway, especially in D&D).  As for the grav belt
approach it reduces apparent wt. but not inertia,
which really is as big a factor for encumbrance I'd
think, unless you mean they just fly around like mini
attack planes.

     "Encumbrance in RL is very, very real and cannot
be ignored. Exhaustion due to encumbrance is also very
real, and has a much harsher effect than I've seen in
simulation rules."

Yes! I've had it with PC's who carry an armoury and
think they can still run and vault over obstacles and
never tire out. You try to explain what its like and
they respond that well yeah but my PC has Str (big #)
so the rules... And then there are those who just
don't even total the load they carry, or already
encumbered want to grab another 100kg of booty or
whatever and RUN away. (ok, one rant a post that's all
I'm allowed).

     "I've been playing around with some rules for my
private combat system, and if I make the rules
approach reality for encumbrance and exhaustion,
people in combat armor get exhausted very, very
quickly.  So help me out - how do those stormtroopers
do it IYTU?"

I'd love to see your take on it, the best I've ever
managed is to just keep track of the totals and if
they go over the unencumbered start giving them
penalties on all tasks and reduce the movement
allowance and initiative, and I include all wt., no
"clothing" allowance. One thing that has long bothered
me in games is the fact that a backpack doesn't help
you encumbrance wise, in fact using a pack adds to
your encumbrance (its wt.). I offer a 10% wt.
reduction for any gear stored and carried in a pack
(but of course it takes a while to drop your pack and
dig out what you need, hehe) and limit the total
"ready" gear (i.e. in hand, pockets, on belts,
holsters, etc.) to the PC's unencumbered load,
everything else has to be "packed" or clothes and/or
armour.

Tod L Glenn wrote:

     "A lot will depend on how much combat armor
really masses, how well the weight is distributed and
how much time troops spend wearing it.  Recall that
medieval knight routinely fought on horse or foot in
full plate armor."

But I've often read they didn't travel to and from the
battle, sleep, eat, and p### in the stuff (like a lot
of PC's I've known), but upon arriving at the battle
site would suit up with the help of a squire or two,
who then also helped them into the saddle if mounted.
The (huge) majority of medieval troops wore little if
any armour, and no doubt did most of the fighting (and
dieing). The rest of what you said makes a lot of
(common) sense.



______________________________________________________________________ 
Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 17:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Wed May 15 16:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Encumbrance rules - and the practicality of certain equipment
References: <20020515220641.90172.qmail@web10606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CE2E7AF.90B13197@mindspring.com>

Daniel Burns wrote:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Yes! I've had it with PC's who carry an armoury and
> think they can still run and vault over obstacles and
> never tire out. You try to explain what its like and
> they respond that well yeah but my PC has Str (big #)
> so the rules... And then there are those who just
> don't even total the load they carry, or already
> encumbered want to grab another 100kg of booty or
> whatever and RUN away. (ok, one rant a post that's all
> I'm allowed).
>
>   <snip>

Let them run, they'll just die tired.


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 17:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed May 15 16:12:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Space Opera
Message-ID: <memo.441448@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B907F154.1FBD%kingdub@mac.com>
Yep :-)

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 18:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Wed May 15 17:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Encumbrance rules - and the practicality of certain equipment
References: <20020515190111.57CF8279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CE2FCFD.C850AC30@earthlink.net>

John T. Kwon posted:
> 
> Given the weight in kg of certain types of armor, especially
> combat armor, is this sort of thing practical?
<snip> 
> I've been playing around with some rules for my private
> combat system, and if I make the rules approach reality for
> encumbrance and exhaustion, people in combat armor get
> exhausted very, very quickly.  So help me out - how do those
> stormtroopers do it IYTU?

I've always ruled that TL13+ combat armor has limited 
cyberaugmentation that halves the weight when worn.

David Smart


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 19:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kirsten M. Berry)
Date: Wed May 15 18:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: [TravellerinSF] Baycon Party
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205141744050.3475-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020514185807.00a1bcb0@mindspring.com>

At 05:53 PM 05/14/02, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:

>There WILL be a party.
>
>It will just not be Doug and Kirsten giving the party this time.
>
>I hope everyone is OK with this.

I certainly am...and I'll be happy to loan you the CDs I burned for last 
year's party.  (Doug may still have a poster for the door, too....)

Thank you for picking up the ball and running with it, Kiri-chan.  I've 
really been feeling at loose ends this year, knowing I won't even be 
staying at the con hotel - but it's nice to know the regulars won't be let 
down.

--
  Kirsten M. Berry                   square peg in a round planet
  kshandra@mindspring.com    http://www.mindspring.com/~kshandra/
-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-
  "change is good.  it buys lunch."              -Duncan Campbell


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 19:24:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jesse DeGraff)
Date: Wed May 15 18:24:12 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: [TravellerinSF] Baycon Party
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205141744050.3475-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <ECEHJEPHFNDMGLDDNJMJEEICCAAA.jdegraff@sbcglobal.net>

Sounds good to me :)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan [mailto:tiamat@tsoft.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 5:53 PM
To: travellerinsf@yahoogroups.com
Cc: tml@travellercentral.com; forkbomb@earthlink.net;
gridlore@mindspring.com
Subject: [TravellerinSF] Baycon Party


There will be a party at BayCon.  The BayCon hotel liaison told Pierce
Nichols and myself that they will definitely give us a room so we are
going to have the party.  PASS IT ON!!!

We decided today that since we both have more money than we thought we
were going to have, and the normal hosts of the party can't manage it this
year, we would rescue the Traveller party tradition at BayCon.  If anyone
would like to help us out by donating food and sodas, or bringing
decorations, please let me know.

There WILL be a party.

It will just not be Doug and Kirsten giving the party this time.

I hope everyone is OK with this.  I know we should have said something
before now, but we didn't know how broke we were not going to be and
neither of us could do it alone but together, I think we can do it!

I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes by doing this, but we've been
having too much fun to not keep having it.  For once I am not broke, and
while I am sorry that everyone else is, maybe I can pay back a little.

Love,
Kiri (and Pierce, but this is my email account) ^_^
****************************************************************************
**
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 19:59:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed May 15 18:59:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller back from San Diego
In-Reply-To: <000101c1fbda$f7a1c160$c4617043@jbathome>
References: <823E42A1A121C04687C78532E353095B01471D@atlantis.tedlindsey.com> <000101c1fbda$f7a1c160$c4617043@jbathome>
Message-ID: <7q36eu0oe5v4mvs9a84tko32b67o3jk3bm@4ax.com>

On Tue, 14 May 2002 23:37:21 -0700, "Jedidia Bowman"
<cyber0@prodigy.net> wrote:

>As some of you already know, I'm not in San Diego.  I'm back in
>Sacramento sans boat and sans more money than I would like, but
>with a job.  I've even got a few adventure stories to tell and
>haven't given up on my dream of owning a big deep bellied blue
>water sailing vessel.

My condolences.  I can only share in some minor portion of your
immediate disappointment.  I can only hope that fickle fortune smiles
more kindly upon future opportunities.

I've had similar dreams but never the tenacity of effort or the fiscal
discipline to make the sacrifices necessary to the purchase.  And,
while living on the shores of a wonderful body of water, I haven't
been under sail in more than 10 years (and this from someone who used
to sale competitively).

Ahh well, I'll have to find another sailor to live vicariously
through.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 21:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed May 15 20:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Handwaving ourselves into the future
Message-ID: <3CE325B2.8B820C4E@mail.cswnet.com>

The first fan in line to see the 1201 am viewing of Star Wars: Episode 2
at the UA Breckenridge Village Theater in Little Rock, Arkansas:

a Mark Miller.

Interviewed by Channel 4 KARK TV 10 O'Clock news.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
Talk about your Attack of the Clones...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 21:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May 15 20:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Follow the Money
Message-ID: <128.117c07fc.2a14875c@aol.com>

>Actually the Starter format makes things more expensive[1] for
>the users (and therefore more profitable for the producer).

And you come by this information how? GDW financial records? Magic 8-ball? 
Intution? 

Sorry, I'm thinner skinned than usual tonight, but I get a little itrritated 
when people accuse me and my friends at GDW of being in the gaming business 
for the money. If I were only interested in money, I'd be perpetrating a 
stock swindle or an internet scam or something. I went into gaming for many 
reasons, but money was never the leading one.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 22:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jedidia Bowman)
Date: Wed May 15 21:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Space Opera
In-Reply-To: <B907F154.1FBD%kingdub@mac.com>
Message-ID: <000501c1fc91$b891b9a0$5fc74fd1@jbathome>

King Dub wrote:
-Just out of curiosity, are there any Space Opera players out there?

I have.  It's been a while.

I must be Travelling,
Jason

IMTU tc+ ?tm ?tn t4+ tg to ru ge++ !3i c+(-) jt au+ ?st ls pi+ ta+
 he+ kk++ hi+ as++ va ++ ?dr ?ith ?vr ?ne so zh vi+ ?da sy-
Jason Barnabas 0609 A7335880 he+ kk++ hi+ as++ va++ A924



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 22:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Wed May 15 21:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Star Wars Lines
In-Reply-To: <3CE325B2.8B820C4E@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1fc93$fe7b9ab0$2f7de40c@loki>

They have been lined up around the corner here in Seattle at Paul
Allen's Cinerama since at least 4 PM (for the 12:01 show) when I went by
there. There is a lot of Obi Wan types in the crowd. I have to wait
until 4 AM to see it on the greatest regularly used commercial screen on
earth.

-peace-
The views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you
expect?
<n2sami@attbi.com>
<http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 22:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 15 21:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval Command Question
In-Reply-To: <001701c1f769$7fc49160$d1317b83@housing.res.kent.edu>
Message-ID: <20515.123139.2v6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Using High Guard there is an opportunity for every officer to acquire a
> command position no matter the officer's branch.  Now previously I had
> always taken that to represent a command position "within" their branch, i.e
> a flight officer was placed in command of a fighter wing, a medical officer
> was made Chief Medical officer etc.  But given the extremely unlikely chance
> certain branches have of command I am now wondering if the command roll is
> supposed to represent actual command of a base or ship.  I was about to blow
> this idea off but then I remembered reading once that to captain an aircraft
> carrier an officer had to have had his wings.  What I wonder is if this
> trend actually extends to other branches as well i.e. does the captain of a
> Medical frigate have to be a doctor as well or does a repair depot need a
> base commander with a background in engineering?

Well, keep in mind, that (for example) a medical branch officer can get
a "command position" by being commander of a *hospital* or similar
medical establishment.

Similar things could apply to other branches.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 22:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 15 21:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Crusty and Sunbeard discuss the TML (long)
In-Reply-To: <m3d6w5gltn.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20515.141255.7x5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The only real reason I can see for a digest is if somehow one receives
> mail in such a fashion that it is cheaper--for some meaning of that
> word--to receive one very large message rather than many small ones.
> I cannot think what would cause this, given that even over a
> phone-speed link email flows very quickly, but I'll grant the
> theoretical possibility.

Actually, a digest is *considerably* smaller than the individual
messages that go into it, because most of the header info associated
with those messages is thrown away. 

And this can be an important consideration when dealing with a small
"mailbox" on your ISP.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 22:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May 15 21:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Star Wars Lines
In-Reply-To: <000001c1fc93$fe7b9ab0$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <3CE325B2.8B820C4E@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3CE2F428.21497.2F1BE6D@localhost>

Hey speaking of Star Wars fashion I have a Traveller question.  
What is the fashion like in the 3rd Imperium.  Do they have nifty 
fabrics?  I am asking this because I am writing a short story and 
am wondering how to describe the characters.  

Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 15 23:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed May 15 22:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Star Wars Lines
In-Reply-To: <3CE2F428.21497.2F1BE6D@localhost>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEPMEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I don't know about the 3rd Imperium fashions ,apart from a couple of
illusatrations of the emperor. But in my Star Kingdom of Swan the fashions
on Swan are based on european fashions of around 1800. Modern fabrics of
course so more comfortable.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
timothyreynolds@earthlink.net
Sent: Thursday, 16 May 2002 12:50 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Star Wars Lines


Hey speaking of Star Wars fashion I have a Traveller question.
What is the fashion like in the 3rd Imperium.  Do they have nifty
fabrics?  I am asking this because I am writing a short story and
am wondering how to describe the characters.

Tim
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TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 10:38:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu May 16 09:38:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Space Opera
In-Reply-To: <B907F154.1FBD%kingdub@mac.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOHHMAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

King Dub wrote :
> Just out of curiosity, are there any Space Opera
> players out there?

I've played it, but one of the players took an "ursoid" and we
couldn't stop making bad Star Wars jokes about the "wookie", so
it never got very far.

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 10:40:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Thu May 16 09:40:26 2002
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
References: <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt> <20020401004727.78ab1572.jenry023@student.liu.se> <20020401085624.E5932@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020401141223.335695b5.jenry023@student.liu.se> <005901c1d99c$d5e58940$52200050@matt> <5.1.0.14.2.20020402201259.009ec960@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CE37053.5030003@gmx.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

 > At 07:40 PM 4/2/02 +0200, you wrote:
 >
 >> Consider a race which evolved sentinence without being at the top of the
 >> food chain. What if that race also evolved a psionic ability to keep
 >> predators away? This ability also affects humans who set foot on the ice
 >> for one reason or another, causing them to avoid exploring the world
 >> under
 >> the ice.
 >
 >
 > Jedi Jellyfish Under The Ice!  I love it!
 >
 >
Yes...but they're probably easy meat for the Imperial Penguin Corps.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump. 
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 10:42:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Thu May 16 09:42:13 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
References: <RELAY1RxI8mSipv5nyI00003a6d@relay1.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <3CE3706F.6010706@gmx.net>

markc@peak.org wrote:

 >Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
 >
 >>At 02:50 PM 5/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
 >>
 >>>Unfortunately, no :(  I still haven't recovered enough financially
 >>>from my un-employed stint at the end of last year to be able to
 >>>afford to go up.  I'm getting major withdrawl symptoms!!!  On the
 >>>bright side, maybe by the time I can afford to go up again the '16
 >>>will be fixed :)~
 >>>
 >>The 16 being fixed is one of the signs of the Apocolypse.
 >>
 >
 >No.  When the '16 is fixed *AND* the '21 runs smoothly, *that*
 >is a sign of the Apocalypse. :^)
 >
 >    - Mark C.
 >
But heeeyyy...that's OK...with a working '16 /and/ a working '21 who
gives a flying farnarkle about the end of the world?

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump. 
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 10:44:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu May 16 09:44:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Star Wars Lines
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEPMEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <3CE2F428.21497.2F1BE6D@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020516070209.00cba9e0@192.168.0.1>

At 01:09 PM 5/16/2002 +0800, Antony Farrell wrote:
>I don't know about the 3rd Imperium fashions ,apart from a couple of
>illusatrations of the emperor. But in my Star Kingdom of Swan the fashions
>on Swan are based on european fashions of around 1800. Modern fabrics of
>course so more comfortable.

The Solies are into codpieces.  Great big honking ones.
Really fashionable Solies have two or more...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
I'm what love is all about. I've got American Teeth
and a Spanish Mouth -- Fernando (Billy Crystal)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 10:46:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May 16 09:46:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Azhanti High Lightning
Message-ID: <8f.1c127768.2a14f28a@aol.com>

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For those interested i just put up the boxset on ebay.  

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1732106897

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>For those interested i just put up the boxset on ebay. &nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=1732106897</FONT></HTML>

--part1_8f.1c127768.2a14f28a_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 10:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu May 16 09:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Follow the Money
In-Reply-To: <128.117c07fc.2a14875c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1fcda$810f05c0$0b01a8c0@duck>

> >Actually the Starter format makes things more expensive[1] for
> >the users (and therefore more profitable for the producer).
>
> And you come by this information how? GDW financial records?
> Magic 8-ball? Intution?
>
> Sorry, I'm thinner skinned than usual tonight, but I get a little
itrritated
> when people accuse me and my friends at GDW of being in the gaming
business
> for the money. If I were only interested in money, I'd be perpetrating a
> stock swindle or an internet scam or something. I went into gaming for
many
> reasons, but money was never the leading one.

Loren,

I can't speak for the person who made the actual quote, but as
the person who started this, please let me interject.

First, obviously we have no explicit proof.  All we can do is
look at the evidence and make conclusions.  If we are wrong and
someone who knows (e.g. you) feels like correcting us, great.
If not, it is still the best understanding we can come up with.

The circumstantial evidence is that The Traveller Adventure contains
around 160 pages.  Most of the Traveller Modules (the non-boxed ones)
contain around 50 pages.  There was some reason that GDW made a
decision to change from the "Book" format to the "Starter" format.
One obvious benefit of this change is that GDW could put out an item
approximately one third the size for (IIRC) half of the price, thereby
lowering unit cost, but increasing total revenue.

Are there other potential reasons?  Sure, but in most people's
experience if there is a good money reason for a change, you
pretty much don't have to look much farther.

Second, just because a company (e.g. GDW) makes something more
expensive does not mean the buyers are being screwed.  While I
am sure you were not in it for the money (no one I have known
in the game industry is), you still have to make money to stay
in business.  So, speculating that the "Starter" format was more
profitable than the "Book" format is NOT equivalent to saying
GDW (and its employees) were "in it for the money".

I really don't think either of us were GDW-bashing.  (I sure
wasn't.)  I was just trying to figure out why a format I (at
the very least) liked a lot was killed and replaced with another.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 10:51:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu May 16 09:51:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Star Wars Lines
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEPMEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <20020516130936.86864.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

What?!?!  No polyester??

The resurgence of the polyester market is almost
guaranteed.  Note the difference in StarTrak Uniforms
from Enterprise to The Original Series.

Polyester WILL rise again.

<ducks and runs>

Paul

--- Antony Farrell <Skaran@bigpond.com> wrote:
> I don't know about the 3rd Imperium fashions ,apart
> from a couple of
> illusatrations of the emperor. But in my Star
> Kingdom of Swan the fashions
> on Swan are based on european fashions of around
> 1800. Modern fabrics of
> course so more comfortable.
> 
> Antony
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
> timothyreynolds@earthlink.net
> Sent: Thursday, 16 May 2002 12:50 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Star Wars Lines
> 
> 
> Hey speaking of Star Wars fashion I have a Traveller
> question.
> What is the fashion like in the 3rd Imperium.  Do
> they have nifty
> fabrics?  I am asking this because I am writing a
> short story and
> am wondering how to describe the characters.
> 
> Tim
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 10:54:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu May 16 09:54:54 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC May Contest Closed
Message-ID: <20020516132716.78382.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

OK, the may competition is closed.  I will be using
the next few days to post the ships submitted to the
web.  They will be up by the 18th along with the
voting form.  (I will send a TXT file for those
without a web viewer.)

On the 18th, I will also be posting some ideas for the
June contest for everyone to throw around.  Right now
I am leaning towards a VERY LARGE Luxury Liner, but I
am open to other ideas.

(PS - Can someone point me to a website with GURPS
ships on it?  I need to see an example of the
formatting.)

More in a couple of days.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 10:57:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (acoloset)
Date: Thu May 16 09:57:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval Command Question
Message-ID: <3D17E7FE@webmail.kent.edu>

Comments below...

> Using High Guard there is an opportunity for every officer to acquire a
> command position no matter the officer's branch.  Now previously I had
> always taken that to represent a command position "within" their branch,
i.e
> a flight officer was placed in command of a fighter wing, a medical
officer
> was made Chief Medical officer etc.  But given the extremely unlikely
chance
> certain branches have of command I am now wondering if the command roll is
> supposed to represent actual command of a base or ship.  I was about to
blow
> this idea off but then I remembered reading once that to captain an
aircraft
> carrier an officer had to have had his wings.  What I wonder is if this
> trend actually extends to other branches as well i.e. does the captain of
a
> Medical frigate have to be a doctor as well or does a repair depot need a
> base commander with a background in engineering?

<quote>

Well, keep in mind, that (for example) a medical branch officer can get
a "command position" by being commander of a *hospital* or similar
medical establishment.

Similar things could apply to other branches.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

</quote>

Well that is the scenario I usually anticipated...let me fill you in on what
occurred during the character generation and maybe you can help me decide
how to explain it. The character was given a Command position on a Patrol.
The character is also an honor's graduate of Medical School and has
absolutely no skills of a shipboard nature (no ship or fleet tactics, pilot,
navigation or engineering).  So this makes me wonder if the Command in this
case is of the "Chief Medical Officer" or "Hospital Ship Commander" variety.
Thanks for your time in answering...

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 10:59:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J. Paul Sanders)
Date: Thu May 16 09:59:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Follow the Money
In-Reply-To: <128.117c07fc.2a14875c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020516072650.00a98960@mail.earthlink.net>

At 11:54 PM 5/15/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> >Actually the Starter format makes things more expensive[1] for
> >the users (and therefore more profitable for the producer).
>
>And you come by this information how? GDW financial records? Magic 8-ball?
>Intution?
>
>Sorry, I'm thinner skinned than usual tonight, but I get a little itrritated
>when people accuse me and my friends at GDW of being in the gaming business
>for the money. If I were only interested in money, I'd be perpetrating a
>stock swindle or an internet scam or something. I went into gaming for many
>reasons, but money was never the leading one.
>
>LKW

Umm... or perhaps you'd be back in telemarketing??? Sorry, but ascribing a 
higher calling to game design is in my opinion silly. There is nothing 
wrong after all in admitting that one also enjoys a steady paycheck.

Paul


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 11:02:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Thu May 16 10:02:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Fashions
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEPMEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <000401c1fceb$f36214d0$2f7de40c@loki>

I'd image the 3rd Imperium has every imaginable fashion/fabric/style/cut
except for those that are found only outside the Imperium.

In other words, the 3I is so vast it is all there, or has been and will
be again.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 11:06:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu May 16 10:06:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Star Wars Lines
References: <3CE325B2.8B820C4E@mail.cswnet.com> <3CE2F428.21497.2F1BE6D@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CE3D24E.4080204@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:
> Hey speaking of Star Wars fashion I have a Traveller question.  
> What is the fashion like in the 3rd Imperium.  Do they have nifty 
> fabrics?  I am asking this because I am writing a short story and 
> am wondering how to describe the characters.  

Glenn Grant did an article on Smart Fabrics on Freelance Traveller:

http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/consgoods/smartfab.html




-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 11:08:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu May 16 10:08:43 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
In-Reply-To: <RELAY3mHA0n5LWwVQar000061f4@relay3.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020516092429.009f4b70@mindspring.com>

At 03:44 PM 5/15/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Instead, it's like trying to pull teeth and I've
>had to resort to begging for volunteer labor from *outside* the club.

Mark me down for shifts at winter shoot. I need an excuse to wear my nifty 
orange hat. All I ask is that we can come up a few days early to you can 
teach my wife how to handle a pistol.

That, and time on the MP-5... :P~~

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 11:11:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (King Dub)
Date: Thu May 16 10:11:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Space Opera
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEOHHMAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <B90933FB.207A%kingdub@mac.com>

For nostalgia's sake I recently ordered a copy of Space Opera (my original
copy was lost long ago).  After looking through the manual I couldn't
believe how shoddy the game system was.

I'll stick to Traveller.

-King Dub

on 5/16/02 1:17 AM, Frank Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:

> King Dub wrote :
>> Just out of curiosity, are there any Space Opera
>> players out there?
> 
> I've played it, but one of the players took an "ursoid" and we
> couldn't stop making bad Star Wars jokes about the "wookie", so
> it never got very far.
> 
> Frankie
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 11:13:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Thu May 16 10:13:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Bryan Borich or keeper of the HIWG CD
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01140753@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

--=_IS_MIME_Boundary
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

It's been a while since I'd heard from Bryan (he was working on an update to the HIWG CD), and his website doesn't appear to have been updated since 98, and I've tried e-mail, and no luck.

So, if you know about how to get the HIWG CD, or how to get ahold of Bryan Borich, please tell him I'd like to buy a copy.


DonM.
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 11:15:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu May 16 10:15:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Follow the Money
References: <000001c1fcda$810f05c0$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <3CE3E6C2.50306@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mike West wrote:

> One obvious benefit of this change is that GDW could put out an item
> approximately one third the size for (IIRC) half of the price, thereby
> lowering unit cost, but increasing total revenue.

That makes the dangerously inaccurate assumption that "page count" == 
"value", which is quite untrue in the publishing industry.

Creating and publishing a book that's 300 pages long costs *less* than 
producing two books 100 pages long, no matter what your profits on the 
back end.

The unit of publication is the *book*, not the *page*.

(If it were, Steven King novels would sell for hundreds of doallars...)

There are large fixed costs per book, and only marginally increased 
costs per page. You need to produce two covers, have two _different_ 
print runs, place two books in the distribution channels, etc, etc.

Now if they could guarantee that everyone would buy both books, why yes, 
this would increase their profits, maybe. Adopting this strategy to 
increase revenues? They would have to have been listening to the sock 
puppet...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 11:16:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu May 16 10:16:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Follow the Money
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020516072650.00a98960@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1021568743.4086.ajackson@ping>

J. Paul Sanders writes:

> Umm... or perhaps you'd be back in telemarketing??? Sorry, but ascribing a 
> higher calling to game design is in my opinion silly. There is nothing 
> wrong after all in admitting that one also enjoys a steady paycheck.

Steady paycheck and gaming?  What makes you think those two go together? 
There's a reason an awful lot of game company publishers have a day job that's
not in the gaming business.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 11:19:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu May 16 10:19:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Star Wars Lines
References: <3CE2F428.21497.2F1BE6D@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020516070209.00cba9e0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3CE3E736.2070008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> 
> The Solies are into codpieces.  Great big honking ones.
> Really fashionable Solies have two or more...
> 

And don't forget their manservants named Baldrick...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 11:21:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu May 16 10:21:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Space Opera
In-Reply-To: <B907F154.1FBD%kingdub@mac.com>
References: <F241o11vCdFCCT8WEVR000166e5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020516092801.009f6cc0@mindspring.com>

At 11:04 AM 5/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Just out of curiosity, are there any Space Opera players out there?

I started rolling up a character in 1982, so I expect to be finished any 
day now...


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 11:22:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu May 16 10:22:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Star Wars Lines
In-Reply-To: <3CE2F428.21497.2F1BE6D@localhost>
References: <000001c1fc93$fe7b9ab0$2f7de40c@loki>
 <3CE325B2.8B820C4E@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020516092912.009f5330@mindspring.com>

At 11:50 PM 5/15/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Hey speaking of Star Wars fashion I have a Traveller question.
>What is the fashion like in the 3rd Imperium.  Do they have nifty
>fabrics?  I am asking this because I am writing a short story and
>am wondering how to describe the characters.

11,000 worlds, hundreds of species.. I doubt that there will be any real 
"Imperial" fashion.

 From the illustations in the GT book, it seems that the Imperial family 
dresses in military style garb. I don't know if that is a formal uniform or 
the latest thing on Capital.

Fashion might work like ripples... Fads spread out until they reach the 
edge of the Imperium.

Adventure nugget:

World A has a sudden fad for miner's coveralls. World B, j-2 away, is a 
mining colony. Authentic coveralls are fetching high prices on A. Players 
jump to B and fill up on coveralls.  Jump back to A and make a mint. Go to 
B for a second load. Return to A and find that mining coveralls are *so* 
yesterday. Players sell coveralls at a loss, suddenly are very short of 
cash and willing to do anything for money...


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 11:25:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu May 16 10:25:13 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020516092429.009f4b70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205161016510.16199-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 16 May 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 03:44 PM 5/15/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Instead, it's like trying to pull teeth and I've
> >had to resort to begging for volunteer labor from *outside* the club.
> 
> Mark me down for shifts at winter shoot. I need an excuse to wear my nifty 
> orange hat. All I ask is that we can come up a few days early to you can 
> teach my wife how to handle a pistol.
> 
> That, and time on the MP-5... :P~~
> 
Stop that, I have open toed shoes on today.

When is Winter Shoot anyways?  I haven't had my hands on a *real* gun in
way too long.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 11:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu May 16 10:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval Command Question
Message-ID: <F113GotX3Y21ZJhRGrN00017ceb@hotmail.com>

From: acoloset <acoloset@kent.edu>

     "Well that is the scenario I usually anticipated...let me fill you in 
on what occurred during the character generation and maybe you can help me 
decide how to explain it. The character was given a Command position on a 
Patrol.  The character is also an honor's graduate of Medical School and has 
absolutely no skills of a shipboard nature (no ship or fleet tactics, pilot, 
navigation or engineering).  So this makes me wonder if the Command in this 
case is of the "Chief Medical Officer" or "Hospital Ship Commander" 
variety."


Sir,

     Trying to ascribe or create Real World(tm) analogs for an RPG chargen 
is difficult at the best of times and silly all the time.  I enjoyed the 
detailed options that CT books 4, 5, 6, and 7 gave us, but the one year 
assignments used in them are there to allow you to get more skills and not 
as a model for 57th century personnel practices.
     That being said, the idea of "command" could be stretched to include 
command of a detachment or division within a vessel.  The chief engineering 
officer could be said to be in command of the engineering department aboard 
a battleship.  The same idea could be used for your newly graduated medico, 
he found himself in command of the medical department aboard a smallish 
vessel with no other doctors aboard.
     I'd leave the possibility of a hospital ship command for charecters 05 
or higher.
     If you want your charecter to actually be in command of something, i.e. 
no superior within easy radio contact, how about sticking her in a detached 
duty style mission as part of the patrol assignment?  Imagine a patrol 
squadron deploying to District 268.  As the squadron visits each world, they 
drop off a few dozen small medical teams to minister to the local yokels as 
part of a "hearts and minds" PR campaign.  Each ship carries a GP/surgeon or 
two with a small group of assorted corpmen.  These teams are dropped off in 
the boonies while the squadron conducts exercises in the system.  After a 
week or three, the docs and pillpushers are picked back up and the squadron 
jumps for their next destination.
     In this way, your newly minted naval doctor sublieutenant could be said 
to be in command during her patrol assignment; she led a 5 sophont detached 
duty medical team posted to a patrol escort.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu May 16 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
Message-ID: <200205161734.GJY02156@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Why does Traveller have such a limited number of robots (this 
is not intended to start a "why are the computers so wrong in 
traveller" thread)?

I was just reading a Future Combat System presentation for 
the Army, and it said, 

"The first technical challenge is in the area of Robotics.  
We want to look at all opportunities to increase the ability 
of a robotic system to see and sense the battlefield and then 
to be able to react to its environment with minimal human 
interaction.  We really plan this to be an experimental 
program designed to seek out the best combination of sensors 
and algorithms to meet the expected performance requirements 
for the future battlefield.  Today, robotics is generally 
limited to tele-operation.  To achieve the levels of 
performance that we will need for a FCS-equipped force in 
2012 we are looking to have systems capable of much greater 
autonomous behavior. 

The second technical challenge is re-thinking the design of 
ground combat vehicles that do not have men inside them.  
When men aren't present in the vehicle we might be able to 
build a faster, more survivable vehicle that is lighter and 
more mobile than current combat platforms.  When a man is not 
in the platform we can conceive of making these systems 
smaller and employing control structures that have greater 
protection by hiding them closer to the ground and in areas 
that might have otherwise been occupied by humans.  We can 
then think about the opportunity of employing these vehicles 
in ways we would never have envisioned using them before.  
They might be able to climb over obstacles, swim under rivers 
or leap over trenches.  They may be sacrificed to draw fires 
or cause an enemy to expose himself."

IMHO, we don't need a vehicle as smart as a human - we only 
need a fighter plane as smart as, say, a wasp.  Or a vehicle 
as smart as a spider.  Other than obviating whole career 
paths in Traveller, what canon technical reasons exist that 
such technology is not widespread?

I would think at the very least that robotic ships could 
exist in Traveller.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 11:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu May 16 10:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hmm.  New series - old, old idea
Message-ID: <200205161742.GJY03117@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Fox is putting out a new series - sounds like they should 
have called it "Traveller".

"Set 400-500 years in the future in a newly established Union 
of Planets, "Firefly" centers on the crew of Serenity, a 
small transport spaceship of class firefly who will take any 
job -- legal or not -- to stay afloat and put bread on the 
table."

Sound familiar?
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 11:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu May 16 10:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <200205161734.GJY02156@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1021571628.2749.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> Why does Traveller have such a limited number of robots (this 
> is not intended to start a "why are the computers so wrong in 
> traveller" thread)?

Because Traveller is focused on humans?  The 'why are the computers so wrong'
thread is closely related ;)

> IMHO, we don't need a vehicle as smart as a human - we only 
> need a fighter plane as smart as, say, a wasp.  Or a vehicle 
> as smart as a spider.  Other than obviating whole career 
> paths in Traveller, what canon technical reasons exist that 
> such technology is not widespread?

The fact that canon computer technology is about 1970s era?  Also, there are
social objections to robots (the Zhodani and Hivers both use warbots).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 12:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Thu May 16 11:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
Message-ID: <RELAY2DwZpu6ZY0CezG00002c54@relay2.softcomca.com>

Robert Houghton <Sudragon@gmx.net> writes:

> >No.  When the '16 is fixed *AND* the '21 runs smoothly, *that*
> >is a sign of the Apocalypse. :^)
> >
> >    - Mark C.
>
> But heeeyyy...that's OK...with a working '16 /and/ a working '21 who
> gives a flying farnarkle about the end of the world?

You know, you're right about that, Rob.  I never thought about it
that way before! :^)

Where the hell *are* those Four Horsemen, anyway?

    - Mark C.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 12:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (King Dub)
Date: Thu May 16 11:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1021571628.2749.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B9094283.2099%kingdub@mac.com>

After reading Banks' Culture series I don't see why there can't be robot
play=character.

-King Dub

on 5/16/02 10:53 AM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:

> John T. Kwon writes:
>> Why does Traveller have such a limited number of robots (this
>> is not intended to start a "why are the computers so wrong in
>> traveller" thread)?
> 
> Because Traveller is focused on humans?  The 'why are the computers so wrong'
> thread is closely related ;)
> 
>> IMHO, we don't need a vehicle as smart as a human - we only
>> need a fighter plane as smart as, say, a wasp.  Or a vehicle
>> as smart as a spider.  Other than obviating whole career
>> paths in Traveller, what canon technical reasons exist that
>> such technology is not widespread?
> 
> The fact that canon computer technology is about 1970s era?  Also, there are
> social objections to robots (the Zhodani and Hivers both use warbots).
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 12:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu May 16 11:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <B9094283.2099%kingdub@mac.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1021573151.2767.ajackson@ping>

King Dub writes:
> After reading Banks' Culture series I don't see why there can't be robot
> play=character.
> 
There could be.  It just wouldn't be Traveller.  See, for example, GURPS
Transhuman Space.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 12:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May 16 11:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "Review" of the Clones
Message-ID: <38.27f618f6.2a155261@aol.com>

(no spoilers, if I can help it...)

Being an original fan, I did the midnight showing. Or maybe I fell asleep 
after a long day and had a *really* vivid dream. Not sure either way, except 
I DO have the soundtrack, which I purchased from the Best Buy across from the 
theater before standing in line...

I've seen a few other reviews that carp at the acting or lack thereof. I have 
to disagree. This movie has too much acting. As a result, even Phantom Menace 
has more replay value. People will replay scenes for sure, but sit through 
the whole movie, or have it running while doing other things ("Star Wars 
Radio")? The other four movies are quite viewable this way, but it'll take 
another viewing (when I'm not burnt from 18 hours of prior consciousness, 
sunburn, wind-induced nasal distress, and 5 hours in a car traversing three 
consecutive mountain passes) to really determine if Clones qualifies...

 That said, Yoda was very cool. I will not describe the scene they needed the 
fully digital Yoda for, as that would spoil the surprise, but the whole scene 
had the theater rocking...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu May 16 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
References: <RELAY2DwZpu6ZY0CezG00002c54@relay2.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <3CE3FFE8.7000501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

markc@peak.org wrote:

> You know, you're right about that, Rob.  I never thought about it
> that way before! :^)
> 
> Where the hell *are* those Four Horsemen, anyway?

Well, Douglas "Pestilence" Berry is still around, but David "Famine" 
Golden hasn't been around much lately...I forget who was War and now I 
forget who the fourth horseman was..:-(



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 13:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu May 16 12:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
In-Reply-To: <3CE3FFE8.7000501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <RELAY2DwZpu6ZY0CezG00002c54@relay2.softcomca.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020516141237.00941100@minn.net>

At 11:52 AM 5/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>markc@peak.org wrote:
>
>> You know, you're right about that, Rob.  I never thought about it
>> that way before! :^)
>> 
>> Where the hell *are* those Four Horsemen, anyway?
>
>Well, Douglas "Pestilence" Berry is still around, but David "Famine" 
>Golden hasn't been around much lately...I forget who was War and now I 
>forget who the fourth horseman was..:-(
>

Can I be War?


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Number 201. Must not valiantly push officers onto hand grenades 
	    to save the squad. 		(www.skippyslist.com)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 13:20:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu May 16 12:20:09 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Why not more robots?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMENMCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>IMHO, we don't need a vehicle as smart as a human - we only 

Meet the Bolo Mark I.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 13:22:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May 16 12:22:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why not more robots?
Message-ID: <41.1d483181.2a156095@aol.com>

John Kwon writes:

>Why does Traveller have such a limited number of robots (this 
>is not intended to start a "why are the computers so wrong in 
>traveller" thread)?

I ascribe this phenomenon more to the lack of good design rules (since, until 
last week the number of people with access to JTAS 1-4 was fairly small) than 
anything else.  CT had two tries, and the first (in JTAS) was the better of 
the two.  MT had a couple bad kluges in 101 Vehicles, and TNE didn't have 
rules until the end of its run (in Vampire Fleets). T4 never got that far 
(and wouldn't have been useable...). G:T is GURPS, which should be 'nuff said.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 13:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu May 16 12:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Psst..Hey, buddy..
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1021577396.0.26212800@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

..wanna buy a T-90? Howsa 'bout a Kilo-class sub?

http://www.rusarm.ru/comp.htm

It's enough to warm an Ine Givar member's heart.

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 13:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Thu May 16 12:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Psst..Hey, buddy..
References: <Springmail.0994.1021577396.0.26212800@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <009b01c1fd13$a93f2be0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

oh man... this is the best part of the site, right here

Russia has rejected the ex-USSR practice of using free-of-charge arms
transfers as the instrument of political influence. Nowadays, export
policies are based solely on economic efficiency principles.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Smart" <jurrubin@earthlink.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 3:29 PM
Subject: [TML] Psst..Hey, buddy..


> ..wanna buy a T-90? Howsa 'bout a Kilo-class sub?
>
> http://www.rusarm.ru/comp.htm
>
> It's enough to warm an Ine Givar member's heart.
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 13:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (King Dub)
Date: Thu May 16 12:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <41.1d483181.2a156095@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B9095CCE.20B5%kingdub@mac.com>

I've been thinking about running a CT campaign but I have to admit that I'm
drawn to including robots, not to mention biogenetic engineering.  All that
stuff seems seems just around the corner so why not in the far future?

-King Dub

on 5/16/02 12:20 PM, GypsyComet@aol.com at GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> John Kwon writes:
> 
>> Why does Traveller have such a limited number of robots (this
>> is not intended to start a "why are the computers so wrong in
>> traveller" thread)?
> 
> I ascribe this phenomenon more to the lack of good design rules (since, until
> last week the number of people with access to JTAS 1-4 was fairly small) than
> anything else.  CT had two tries, and the first (in JTAS) was the better of
> the two.  MT had a couple bad kluges in 101 Vehicles, and TNE didn't have
> rules until the end of its run (in Vampire Fleets). T4 never got that far
> (and wouldn't have been useable...). G:T is GURPS, which should be 'nuff said.
> 
> GC
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 14:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J. Paul Sanders)
Date: Thu May 16 13:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Follow the Money
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1021568743.4086.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020516072650.00a98960@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020516125155.00a9aec0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 10:05 AM 5/16/2002 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Umm... or perhaps you'd be back in telemarketing??? Sorry, but ascribing a
> > higher calling to game design is in my opinion silly. There is nothing
> > wrong after all in admitting that one also enjoys a steady paycheck.
>
>Steady paycheck and gaming?  What makes you think those two go together?
>There's a reason an awful lot of game company publishers have a day job that's
>not in the gaming business.

I didn't realize that GDW and SJG were two-bit fly-by-the-night gaming 
companies... perhaps Loren would have been wise to have kept that 
telemarketing job in reserve... ;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 14:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Thu May 16 13:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Space Opera
Message-ID: <E178RhK-00043e-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

Yes but it did have some good ideas.  Example was the way it did starting m=
oney.  Both the pension/mustering out pay and the savings were based off of=
 your rank and the savings being modfied by IQ was a nice touch.  I always =
wondered why a rank 0 and rank 6 could each have the same retirement pay fo=
r serving the same amount of time.  The way they broke down the Library pro=
gram was nice as well.  There are several nuggets that can be used with Tra=
veller but you are correct, overall the system could use a lot of work.

Beth


> For nostalgia's sake I recently ordered a copy of Space Opera (my original
> copy was lost long ago).  After looking through the manual I couldn't
> believe how shoddy the game system was.
>=20
> I'll stick to Traveller.
>=20
> -King Dub
>=20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 14:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu May 16 13:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Follow the Money
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020516072650.00a98960@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000601c1fd17$c4071c40$0b01a8c0@duck>

> >Sorry, I'm thinner skinned than usual tonight, but I get a little
itrritated
> >when people accuse me and my friends at GDW of being in the gaming
business
> >for the money. If I were only interested in money, I'd be perpetrating a
> >stock swindle or an internet scam or something. I went into gaming for
many
> >reasons, but money was never the leading one.
>
> Umm... or perhaps you'd be back in telemarketing??? Sorry, but ascribing a
> higher calling to game design is in my opinion silly. There is nothing
> wrong after all in admitting that one also enjoys a steady paycheck.

Uh, I gotta take a departure here.  Again, I have met a couple of
people in the game business and they definitely do NOT do their job
for the money.  I don't know if I would call it "a higer calling",
but doing something because you love it is a pretty cool thing to me.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 14:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May 16 13:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
Message-ID: <20020516.132522.-173007.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Ok guys, jeesh, you know I can't resist this thread. :~)

On Thu, 16 May 2002 14:12:37 -0500 Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
writes:
> At 11:52 AM 5/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >markc@peak.org wrote:
> >
> >> You know, you're right about that, Rob.  I never thought about it
> >> that way before! :^)
> >> 
> >> Where the hell *are* those Four Horsemen, anyway?
> >
> >Well, Douglas "Pestilence" Berry is still around, but David "Famine" 
> >Golden hasn't been around much lately...I forget who was War and 
> now I forget who the fourth horseman was..:-(
> 
> Can I be War?
> Les

Be what you want to be, I'm not touching this one. :~)

Any other comments, I'd be happy to address off-line :~)

Zechariah 1:7-11;
7  . . . the word of the Lord came to Zechariah . . . saying,
8  I saw in the night a man on a red horse, between the mountains in the
valley, and at his back were horses, red, black, white, and of mixed
colours.
9  Then I said, O my lord, what are these? . . . 
10  . . . These are those whom the Lord has sent to go up and down
through the earth.
11  And the man who was between the mountains, answering, said to the
angel of the Lord, We have gone up and down through the earth, and all
the earth is quiet and at rest.

Revelation 6:1 - 8;
1  And I saw when the Lamb undid one of the stamps . . .
2  And I saw a white horse, and he who was seated on it had a bow; and
there was given to him a crown: and he went out with power to overcome.
3  And when the second stamp was undone . . . 
4  And another horse came out, a red horse; and it was given to him who
was seated on it to take peace from the earth, so that people might put
one another to death: and there was given to him a great sword.
5  And when the third stamp was undone . . . 
And I saw a black horse; and he who was seated on it had scales in his
hand.
6  And a voice came to my ears, from the middle of the four beasts,
saying, A measure of grain for a penny, and three measures of barley for
a penny: and see that you do no damage to the oil and the wine.
7  And when the fourth stamp was undone . . . 
8  And I saw a grey horse, and the name of him who was seated on it was
Death; and Hell came after him. And there was given to them authority
over the fourth part of the earth, to put to destruction by the sword,
and by taking away their food, and by death, and by the beasts of the
earth.

Chaplain Bari

..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 14:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu May 16 13:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Follow the Money
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020516125155.00a9aec0@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1021581982.2060.ajackson@ping>

J. Paul Sanders writes:
> 
> I didn't realize that GDW and SJG were two-bit fly-by-the-night gaming 
> companies... perhaps Loren would have been wise to have kept that 
> telemarketing job in reserve... ;)

You will observe that GDW is gone, and I seem to recall some difficulty paying
their freelancers at least.  SJG is reasonably stable, but it's not the highest
paying of jobs.

By and large, the RPG industry is not a way of making money fast.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 15:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu May 16 14:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "Review" of the Clones
In-Reply-To: <38.27f618f6.2a155261@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000901c1fd1f$e21b54a0$0b01a8c0@duck>

> I've seen a few other reviews that carp at the acting or lack thereof. I
have
> to disagree. This movie has too much acting. As a result, even Phantom
Menace
> has more replay value.

Well I would call it "over acting", not too much acting.  Plus the dialog
between Padme and Anakin is *so* bad, the actors were kinda trapped.  Even
so there is a good reason that the guy who played Anakin was an unknown.

>  That said, Yoda was very cool. I will not describe the scene they needed
the
> fully digital Yoda for, as that would spoil the surprise, but the whole
scene
> had the theater rocking...

If you ignore the overwrought dialog, the special effects were worth the
price of admission.  The Yoda scene is just outstanding.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Erich Brackmann)
Date: Thu May 16 14:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Sword World popularity (was Re: Request)
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKENACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NFBBLDDPILPJIAJFMDJCGEBCCDAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>

>
>The PTB have gone out of the way to make the Sword Worlders
>childish, petty and boorish.
>
>They are chauvinistic to the extreme, are highly militaristic,
>quick to fight and slow to talk.  Plus, they have never
>developed the technology above a basic level, even after 1400
>years.  And they can't even keep a stable government up without
>secret Zhodani help.  And this is from their GOOD press.  :-)

So what's not to like?

--Glenn

		Sounds like a population of game players...
	- Erich
 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 16:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Thu May 16 15:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Follow the Money
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1021581982.2060.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1021581982.2060.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <200205161806530308.0E5065C5@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 5/16/2002 at 1:46 PM Anthony Jackson wrote:

>J. Paul Sanders writes:
>> 
>> I didn't realize that GDW and SJG were two-bit fly-by-the-night gaming 
>> companies... perhaps Loren would have been wise to have kept that 
>> telemarketing job in reserve... ;)
>
>You will observe that GDW is gone, and I seem to recall some difficulty=
 paying
>their freelancers at least.  SJG is reasonably stable, but it's not the=
 highest
>paying of jobs.
>
>By and large, the RPG industry is not a way of making money fast.

Aw dang, NOW you tell me!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 16:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu May 16 15:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Psst..Hey, buddy..
References: <Springmail.0994.1021577396.0.26212800@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3CE42F9C.9010503@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

David Smart wrote:
> ..wanna buy a T-90? Howsa 'bout a Kilo-class sub?
> 
> http://www.rusarm.ru/comp.htm
> 
> It's enough to warm an Ine Givar member's heart.

Ooohhh lotsa nifty-keeno Traveller toys in there...like:

APS Underwater Assault Rifle is intended for combat actions and 
self-defence from dangerous sea predators. It can be installed on 
special underwater vehicles and used against mini submarines. The rifle 
ensures delivery of aimed fire from any position of the swimmer 
including firing on the move. Additionally, the rifle can be 
successfully used for self-defence on the ground.

"Dangerous Sea Predators"


and:

The VNG-006 DM device is designated to prevent voice information leaks 
through vibroacoustic channels from secured areas.

The device ensures efficient jamming of electronic stethoscopes, laser 
and microwave systems, and other high-tech eavesdropping systems.

The noise signal generated by this device is specially shaped to provide 
the most efficient masking of the voice information to be protected.
The vibrators create low-level acoustic noise without decline of 
negotiation comfort.

The proposed noise generating  kit with complementary acoustic emitters 
can be supplied to raise "noise barriers" for enclosures, window 
openings, utility lines (heat, water, etc.), as well as air ducts and 
vestibules.

Man, this is a Traveller Megacorp Catalog just as it is...
-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 17:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Thu May 16 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trav3d
Message-ID: <3CE43CF7.3080809@attbi.com>

Could some one send me the Subscription address. Vast machine changing 
machine crash has wipes a lot of that ninfo out here.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 18:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark F. Cook)
Date: Thu May 16 17:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
In-Reply-To: <20020516190110.03963279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020516170156.00ab2090@mail.peak.org>

At 12:00 PM 5/16/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

>At 03:44 PM 5/15/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Instead, it's like trying to pull teeth and I've
> >had to resort to begging for volunteer labor from *outside* the club.
>
>Mark me down for shifts at winter shoot. I need an excuse to wear my nifty
>orange hat. All I ask is that we can come up a few days early to you can
>teach my wife how to handle a pistol.
>
>That, and time on the MP-5... :P~~

Oh, I'm sure that both of those activities can be arranged. :^)

        - Mark C.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
  7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
  Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 18:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark F. Cook)
Date: Thu May 16 17:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
In-Reply-To: <20020516190110.03963279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020516170339.00abf490@mail.peak.org>

At 12:00 PM 5/16/2002 -0700, Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 May 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> > At 03:44 PM 5/15/02 -0400, you wrote:
> > >Instead, it's like trying to pull teeth and I've
> > >had to resort to begging for volunteer labor from *outside* the club.
> >
> > Mark me down for shifts at winter shoot. I need an excuse to wear my nifty
> > orange hat. All I ask is that we can come up a few days early to you can
> > teach my wife how to handle a pistol.
> >
> > That, and time on the MP-5... :P~~
> >
>Stop that, I have open toed shoes on today.
>
>When is Winter Shoot anyways?  I haven't had my hands on a *real* gun in
>way too long.

It's a single day event on Saturday, Dec. 7th.

        - Mark C.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
  7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
  Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 18:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J. Paul Sanders)
Date: Thu May 16 17:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Follow the Money
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1021581982.2060.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020516125155.00a9aec0@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020516171129.00a9add0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 01:46 PM 5/16/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>J. Paul Sanders writes:
> >
> > I didn't realize that GDW and SJG were two-bit fly-by-the-night gaming
> > companies... perhaps Loren would have been wise to have kept that
> > telemarketing job in reserve... ;)
>
>You will observe that GDW is gone, and I seem to recall some difficulty paying
>their freelancers at least.  SJG is reasonably stable, but it's not the 
>highest
>paying of jobs.
>
>By and large, the RPG industry is not a way of making money fast.

Never said it was... but I suspect it pays better and is at least as secure 
as the high-flying world of telemarketing.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 18:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu May 16 17:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
References: <20020515190109.2A73C27990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005201c1fd3a$dc261ba0$f65d8690@computer>

> From: Stephen Tempest
> Average - according to the WTH rules, a year's production can vary by
> 20% either way (barring disasters).  Also, I was assuming average soil
> quality - if the colonists picked the most fertile spot on the planet
> to settle, they could double their food production.  They could also
> get a 25% increase by going for more capital-intensive farming (more
> expensive).

If terraforming isn't required it might be possible to establish "feral"
crops.  That is, you plant wheat, fruit trees, vegetables, or whatever, and
just let them fend for themselves.  They won't be incredibly productive, but
they would represent a reserve food supply that could supplement your more
organised crops.

The feral crops would essentially form a "forest" around your colonised
areas.  You could even release a certain amount of livestock there as well.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 18:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Thu May 16 17:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval Command Question
In-Reply-To: <3D17E7FE@webmail.kent.edu>
References: <3D17E7FE@webmail.kent.edu>
Message-ID: <m1j8eu8s9f0lrr6bi8quuj0d3o0ud5giti@4ax.com>

On Thu, 16 May 2002 09:57:32 -0400, acoloset <acoloset@kent.edu>
wrote:

>Well that is the scenario I usually anticipated...let me fill you in on =
what
>occurred during the character generation and maybe you can help me =
decide
>how to explain it. The character was given a Command position on a =
Patrol.
>The character is also an honor's graduate of Medical School and has
>absolutely no skills of a shipboard nature (no ship or fleet tactics, =
pilot,
>navigation or engineering).  So this makes me wonder if the Command in =
this
>case is of the "Chief Medical Officer" or "Hospital Ship Commander" =
variety.
>Thanks for your time in answering...

=46ar be it from me to hold Star Trek up as a great example of a way of
handling things in the Traveller universe, but I was always fond of
the way that it was handled in the Next Generation episode where Troi
sits her first time in the command chair (on an overnight shift).  Dr.
Crusher had already done so in the past, and did so on a regular
basis.  The Federation appears to feel that all its officers may
(after qualifying on some prep courses) actually command full ships.
They may not need to do so as part of their regular duties, but they
should be qualified to do so.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 19:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Thu May 16 18:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC May Contest Closed
In-Reply-To: <20020516132716.78382.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020516132716.78382.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <h4n8eucgmjn4108v7qe4pug8hn5orfor1s@4ax.com>

On Thu, 16 May 2002 06:27:16 -0700 (PDT), Paul Walker
<traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>On the 18th, I will also be posting some ideas for the
>June contest for everyone to throw around.  Right now
>I am leaning towards a VERY LARGE Luxury Liner, but I
>am open to other ideas.
>
><SNIP>

I strongly suggest against the large luxury liner as the subject of
the next engineering design competition.  For me, the essence of a
liner is not in the various specs, but in the deckplans for it.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 20:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu May 16 19:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
Message-ID: <F99ylhgnFZS4HIv6Eyb00000210@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "Why does Traveller have such a limited number of robots (this is not 
intended to start a "why are the computers so wrong in Traveller" thread)?"


Mr. Kwon,

     Because robots are toasters, they're ubiquitous and used for far more 
mundane purposes than we can imagine.  Robots are most definitely not C3PO 
knock-offs, they are rarely limited to bipedal locomotion and can only 
handle a limited number of tasks.  Building them that way makes them cheap 
and easy to use, making them cheap and easy to use means they'll be 
purchased.  An anthromophic robot that can act as your valet costs too much. 
  Something that looks like a cross between a spider and a vacumn cleaner 
that cleans your flat every day is not.  Everyone will have one.
     Robots are toasters.

     "IMHO, we don't need a vehicle as smart as a human - we only need a 
fighter plane as smart as, say, a wasp.  Or a vehicle as smart as a spider."

     Exactly.  Parcels are delivered by robots, warehouses staffed by them, 
lawns mowed, litter picked up, shit shoveled, all the shoe salesmen* type 
work that goes unnoticed by the PCs.  To us from the 21st century, it's all 
done by these amazing robots.  To the folks in the 57th century, it's all 
done by toasters.  Ceasar would goggle at automobiles, airplanes, cell 
phones, and whatnot, but to us all of that are literally beneath notice.  
It's all simply part of our daily lives.
     They are all toasters.

     "I would think at the very least that robotic ships could exist in 
Traveller."

     Why spend all the money building and programming one?  Sophonts are 
much more robust, able to handle nearly every contingency.  Besides why 
should robots do all the fun stuff anyway?
     Robots will also be used very differently then we imagine.  We dream of 
these near-sentient servants, able to iron shirts, fix drinks, run errands, 
play music, and so forth.  I think the reality will be far more prosaic.
     Look at microwave ovens.  Twenty five years ago they were going to 
revolutionize cokking as we knew it.  They were built to do it, big with 
lots of features.  Cookbooks were written for them.  But what do we use them 
for now?  Heating leftovers, popping corn, making a cup of tea, and little 
else.  How are they built now, small and easy to use, no meat probes and 
complicated keyboards, just point and click.  Devices are rarely ever used 
in the manner their desingers and boosters envision.
     Look at personal computers.  Sure, the hobbyists use them for all sorts 
of purposes, but the hobbyists always did, even when PCs were kits from 
Tandy.  What do most folks use PCs for?  Email stations, a little surfing, 
hobby lists, maybe some shopping.  None of the predictions even look like 
they'll come through.  Very few are controlling their households with them.  
Very few work at home via telepresence.  Are all the recipes in your kitchen 
in your PC?  All your photo albums?
     But there are computers, or at least microchips, all throughout your 
house.  Your toaster has one, the coffee maker, your fridge, and so on.  
You're using computers (chips) all the time, just not in the way that the 
"experts" predicted.  It will be the same way with robots.



     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 21:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Thu May 16 20:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
References: <F99ylhgnFZS4HIv6Eyb00000210@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <005001c1fd50$d11a7e70$9307b286@Shane>

"They are all toasters."
    - Larsen E. Whipsnade, in a public address on the eve of the 6th
Frontier War

"Damn, that explains a lot."
    - Shane K. Slamet, after realizing why so many robots want to be his
'Chirpy Breakfast Companion'.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- Fire, Man-Magic.  Microwave, Woman-Magic.
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 21:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May 16 20:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fashions
In-Reply-To: <000401c1fceb$f36214d0$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEPMEHAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <3CE4311B.9257.BBF851@localhost>

Ok I guess fashion is something no one cares about and so I ll cut 
it lose and go out on my own.  



> I'd image the 3rd Imperium has every imaginable
> fashion/fabric/style/cut except for those that are found only outside
> the Imperium.
> 
> In other words, the 3I is so vast it is all there, or has been and
> will be again.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 21:23:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May 16 20:23:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Psst..Hey, buddy..
In-Reply-To: <3CE42F9C.9010503@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3CE4311B.8490.BBF860@localhost>

I love this site its great.  Whats great is that its real.  I am keeping 
it for the names and descriptions at the very least.  Thanks a lot for 
it.  The really question is will their data mining all of sudden find 
100 hits from around the world thanks to the post.  List Mom if they 
send a spam please post it for laughs  :)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 21:25:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May 16 20:25:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <200205161734.GJY02156@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CE4311B.7851.BBF870@localhost>

Besides the fact that Traveller is meant to be about "human" and 
the technology is written about during the 70's I think it has to do 
with the canon about Androids.  If you think Androids are wrong 
you would also be against robots to a certain degree.  As for being 
on ships someone wrote a great description of why this is not true 
awhile ago to the TML.  


> Why does Traveller have such a limited number of robots (this 
> is not intended to start a "why are the computers so wrong in 
> traveller" thread)?
> 
> I was just reading a Future Combat System presentation for 
> the Army, and it said, 
> 
> "The first technical challenge is in the area of Robotics.  
> We want to look at all opportunities to increase the ability 
> of a robotic system to see and sense the battlefield and then 
> to be able to react to its environment with minimal human 
> interaction.  We really plan this to be an experimental 
> program designed to seek out the best combination of sensors 
> and algorithms to meet the expected performance requirements 
> for the future battlefield.  Today, robotics is generally 
> limited to tele-operation.  To achieve the levels of 
> performance that we will need for a FCS-equipped force in 
> 2012 we are looking to have systems capable of much greater 
> autonomous behavior. 
> 
> The second technical challenge is re-thinking the design of 
> ground combat vehicles that do not have men inside them.  
> When men aren't present in the vehicle we might be able to 
> build a faster, more survivable vehicle that is lighter and 
> more mobile than current combat platforms.  When a man is not 
> in the platform we can conceive of making these systems 
> smaller and employing control structures that have greater 
> protection by hiding them closer to the ground and in areas 
> that might have otherwise been occupied by humans.  We can 
> then think about the opportunity of employing these vehicles 
> in ways we would never have envisioned using them before.  
> They might be able to climb over obstacles, swim under rivers 
> or leap over trenches.  They may be sacrificed to draw fires 
> or cause an enemy to expose himself."
> 
> IMHO, we don't need a vehicle as smart as a human - we only 
> need a fighter plane as smart as, say, a wasp.  Or a vehicle 
> as smart as a spider.  Other than obviating whole career 
> paths in Traveller, what canon technical reasons exist that 
> such technology is not widespread?
> 
> I would think at the very least that robotic ships could 
> exist in Traveller.
> ________________
> ICQ 34855601
> MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
> AIM VASmalltalk
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 21:27:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May 16 20:27:21 2002
Subject: [TML] GT: First In, problems with life
In-Reply-To: <3CE37053.5030003@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <3CE4311B.27565.BBF847@localhost>

Doug

Thats a good Idea for a race. I am working on something similar to 
talk about next Friday during the IRC chat on allienes.  Just picture 
the idea of the "Dog's Life"





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 21:30:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May 16 20:30:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <005001c1fd50$d11a7e70$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <3CE4320C.14447.BFA6AE@localhost>

Oh in the last post I forgot to add Dune which I can see a lot in of 
in Traveller was also against Robots.  Traveller is just missing a 
war on robots maybe we need to add that to the Long Night.  


> "They are all toasters."
>     - Larsen E. Whipsnade, in a public address on the eve of the 6th
> Frontier War
> 
> "Damn, that explains a lot."
>     - Shane K. Slamet, after realizing why so many robots want to be
>     his
> 'Chirpy Breakfast Companion'.
> _____________________
> Shane K. Slamet --- Fire, Man-Magic.  Microwave, Woman-Magic.
> s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 21:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May 16 20:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] World-hopping criminals
Message-ID: <OFECA24430.ADC08392-ONCA256BBC.00119701@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

First, sorry for coming in late to this one. I'm still snowed under here 
at work.

Mike said:
>Tod Glenn wrote:
>> I'm looking at the possibility of characters travelling from world to
>> world wreaking mayhem and then escaping to the next world to languish
>> in total freedom.  The Imperium must be heaven for serial killers.
>
>First, you have to remember that (ignoring the PC issue for a second),
>this will be an veyr, very small problem.
[snip]
>once
>a person has hit a few planets (definition of "few" is the GM's choice),
>the Imperium is going to notice.  Regardless of the specific laws,
>it becomes annoying and *someone* with pull will want it to stop.

Someone (probably a few of the governments from the affected planets - 
heck, maybe even a noble from one of the planets) will put out a bounty on 
the bad guys. Then, um, market forces take over (it's all economics, 
doesn't Marc say? ;-)

>I would guess that if a truly "heinous" crime was commited by a 
character,
>the SPA would not hesitate to turn them over to the local authorities on
>principle.  ("If they did it there, they will do it here.  Just get rid
>of him.")

Murder is an imperial crime as well as a crime on many individual worlds.

Another possibility is the (deliberately) extremely-vaguely-worded 
"extra-planetary interference" clause could be invoked, and the MoJ could 
become involved. Justifies my "Fieldwork" assignment! See:
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/maint/pc_moj.htm#Assignment%20Determination

>Quite frankly, in both cases, I just don't see where hard and fast
>rules would be necessary.  Just let the story line dictate.

This should ALWAYS be the bottom line! If you want the PCs to run, make 
them run. Y'know, the Push-Pull aspects of the game.

[Er, FYI, Marc's five game aspects are Basics, Push, Pull, Gimmick, and 
Enigma.]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 21:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May 16 20:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
Message-ID: <OFF2BB4BA9.B339A77B-ONCA256BBC.001461E4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mr Dougherty posted a terrorist alert:
>> Didn't we give Doug Berry the boot?
>
>Presumably he gave it back at some point, then? Coz that's him there! 
There!
>Hiding behind his monitor with a false moustache!

Wow - I've never even SEEN a monitor with a false moustache!

[Gee, I hope I'm not so behind with my email that someone else has already 
pounced on this joke!]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 21:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Thu May 16 20:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Int Pool
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17B2E@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Another problem when dealing with what a PC knows as opposed to what his/her
player knows is what is probably the most problematic of all the abilities:
Intelligence. It is usually ignored during a game, except when a task calls
for it.
I've been kicking around the idea of allowing the Intelligence
characteristic as a floating DM, much like the tactics pool in
MegaTraveller. The idea would be that you could draw points out of your
Intelligence pool to act as a DM to a task after you rolled for success.
Once drawn in such a fashion, those points would be unavailable for the rest
of the session.
So if Dirk hault-Resnick had an Intelligence of 5, he could draw three
points to help make his Bribery roll, and then later on draw two points to
avoid an accident with his air/raft. But then he'd be out of points for the
rest of the session.
My initial feeling is that even combat tasks shouldn't be exempted, but I'm
willing to be dissuaded.
Also, social standing could be used in a similar fashion for interpersonal
tasks/reaction rolls only...
Any comments?
Fred Ramen


I've been catching up so this is a late response (I think Fred posted this
on the 11th) 

I love it. Straight INT might be a tad high, but 0.5*Int (round down) would
work I think. 

I believe I shall use this. 

Mikey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 22:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu May 16 21:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jumping jehosaphat
Message-ID: <200205170421.GKU00116@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

The SOP has grown, and grown, and grown, so I decided it was 
time to sit down and go back over it, and edit a lot of it.

For content, and to straighten out the document for 
appearance, grammar, spelling - that sort of thing.  My wife, 
who is an editor by trade, has helped me over the past three 
nights with "editing".

The SJ games web page, although they mention editing, need to 
have it in larger, flashing type.

I can type crap really fast.  Editing feels like trying to do 
illuminated text.  We established the basic document template 
and style, dropped all of my little documents into a master 
document, ran through the whole document to make a consistent 
outline, and then tackled Chapter One, which is only ten 
pages long.  Ten pages edited in three days (ok, four hours 
each night).  They look pretty, though.

I have roughly 300 pages to go... and I was thinking this was 
going to be easy.  There's nothing like having someone like 
my wife mutter over my shoulder, "and what do you mean by 
this sentence fragment?", or   "what's a RAM Grenade?"

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 22:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu May 16 21:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Psst..Hey, buddy..
Message-ID: <3CE48976.A8D5644D@mail.cswnet.com>

David Smart wrote:
> ..wanna buy a T-90? Howsa 'bout a Kilo-class sub?
> 
> http://www.rusarm.ru/comp.htm
> 
> It's enough to warm an Ine Givar member's heart.

Ah, the reprint for TW:2000 Soviet Vehicle Guide ;)

1. Check out the MI-35 combat helicopter.

Now, imagine it with grav thrusters in place of rotors.

Remind you of anything you may have seen lately?

2. Tunguska-M Surface-to-Air gun/missile system
These things are nasty. The US should buy them just to keep them of the
market. I did a Traveller version of them. I'm afraid it just doesn't do
the Tunguska justice though.

Kamchatka lS6 Planetary Defense Sled
This is intended to fill the roll of the old 256 Tunguska SAM Vehicle
and supplant the BMD Infantry
Carrier.

Craft ID: Kamchatka lS2 Planetary Defense Sled, TL10, Mcr14.774.
Hull: 9/23, Disp. 10dt, Config. 4SL, Turret+20%, Armor 40E, unloaded
wt:166tons, loaded:177tons
Power: 1/2, Fusion 84 MW, Duration 30 Days.
Loco: 1/2, Std Grav:302, Max Speed: 840kph, Cruise Speed: 630kph, Noe:
140kph, Max Acel .7g.
Comm: Radio: 5000km, Radio Jammer: 5000km, Laser Comm: 50km, Maser Comm:
50km.
Sensors: EMS active array: 5000km, EMS active jammer: 5000km, Low
penetration densitometer,
Non discriminent Neutrino Sensor, Video recorder (used as a gun camera).
Active energy scan: Diff. Active energy pinpoint: Diff.
Passive object scan: Form. Passive object pinpoint: Impossible.
Passive energy scan: Diff. Passive energy pinpoint: lmpossible.
Off: Hardpoints:1
                               Pen/      Max.    Auto Dngr
                      Ammo Rds Attn Dmg  Range   Tgts Spc Sig Rof
50MW Beam Laser        --  --  55/4 100  250km     2   --  H   40
Missle Launcherx2     HEAP 80  51   18  Far Orbit --   --  M    I
Def: Point Defense for Laser, Smoke dischargers: 50, Pdsmatic aerosol
dischargers: 50.
Control: Model I Bis x2, Heads up display x3, Computer linkx3.
Accom: Crew: 3 (Commander, Pilot, Gunner) 3 Roomy seats,
Troops: 8 (2-3man Fireteams, 1 squad leader, 1 Medic) 8 adequate seats.
Basic Environment, Basic Life Support.
Other: Fuel: 30.24kiloliters, Cargo: 9.2 kiloliters, Object size: small,
Emlevel: Moderate.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 23:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Thu May 16 22:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fashions
In-Reply-To: <3CE4311B.9257.BBF851@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205162209580.24851-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 16 May 2002 timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:

> Ok I guess fashion is something no one cares about and so I ll cut 
> it lose and go out on my own.  

Hey, I am the #1 TML Fashion Clotheshorse, but-- in all those planets,
they're pretty much right-- you should be able to find just about
anything.

And it's hard to talk about fashion without pictures, especially to folks
who don't sew.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 23:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May 16 22:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #534 - 25 msgs
Message-ID: <9b.278ef3c6.2a15ee76@aol.com>

>>Steady paycheck and gaming?  What makes you think those two go together?
>>There's a reason an awful lot of game company publishers have a day job 
that's
>>not in the gaming business.
>
>I didn't realize that GDW and SJG were two-bit fly-by-the-night gaming 
>companies... 

When I worked for GDW, I was full-time, although from time to time it was 
necessary to defer salary in order for the other employees to get paid. I 
never got my BoD fees (and I ended up taking them in office supplies at 10 
cents on the dollar when the company went OOB).

The folks at DGP, I understand, never quit their day jobs.

>perhaps Loren would have been wise to have kept that 
>telemarketing job in reserve... ;)

At SJ Games, I am not required to call people and perform a fake survey to 
gather sucker numbers for a large long distance phone company. I worked one 
6-hour shift and then quit.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 23:35:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May 16 22:35:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Follow the money
Message-ID: <10.1eee74c8.2a15f03c@aol.com>

>By and large, the RPG industry is not a way of making money fast.


One of [name of famous designer of yesteryear deleted]'s more annoying habits 
was to rake me over the coals for not bailing on the paper gaming biz and 
moving into computer games like he did. After GDW went under, I was contacted 
by Interplay and interviewed for one of their product manager positions, but 
the only opening they had was running the D&D licensed line, and my potential 
employment with them was evidently torpedoed by higher-ups at TSR (and if I 
had that on paper, I'd have sued them long ago).

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 16 23:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Thu May 16 22:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC May Contest Closed
In-Reply-To: <20020516132716.78382.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEEAHEAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

My vote is for a colonial support ship

A polity is just getting started in the space biz and has three colonies at
one, two and four hexes distant in a straight line.

All systems possess Gas Giants

World Two can produce refined fuel, though it is still effectively a type E
SP as are all the planets

There is no inter-colony trade,

Requirements


- TL 10
- survivable in an unknown region of space (Here may be dragons)
- total budget 10 billion credits
- average 1000 tons and 500 cold sleep passengers per month per colony.
Passengers must be revived aboard ship.
- able to land colonists and cargo itself, without assistance from ground
- wilderness refueling


OK, the may competition is closed.  I will be using
the next few days to post the ships submitted to the
web.  They will be up by the 18th along with the
voting form.  (I will send a TXT file for those
without a web viewer.)

On the 18th, I will also be posting some ideas for the
June contest for everyone to throw around.  Right now
I am leaning towards a VERY LARGE Luxury Liner, but I
am open to other ideas.

(PS - Can someone point me to a website with GURPS
ships on it?  I need to see an example of the
formatting.)

More in a couple of days.

Paul

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 01:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Fri May 17 00:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fashions
Message-ID: <F263dGSyMp69YDqSkcJ0001e5f0@hotmail.com>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net
>Ok I guess fashion is something no one cares about and so I'll cut
>it lose and go out on my own.

I know other people have done work on fashion both on the TML and on 
trav-culture some time ago. I think that trav-culture has an file archive. I 
also remember an article or two on some webpage but can't remember the 
specifics.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 01:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Fri May 17 00:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Encounter
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17B36@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Encounter: Out of Hand Street Protest

Whilst walking along the Travellers are suddenly absorbed into a street
protest. 

1)	The protesters think the Travellers are under cover cops and attack
them
2)	The local law enforcement thinks the Travellers are protestors and
attacks them
3)	The Travellers are caught between the protestors and the law
enforcers just as they surge towards one another
4)	The Travellers are caught between the protestors and the law
enforcers just as the law enforcers retreat in face of a massive onslaught
(think cops running around the corner of a building followed shortly after
by a swarm of angry rioters)
5)	The Travellers are caught between the protestors and the law
enforcers just as the protesters retreat in face of a massive onslaught
6)	The protesters think they are movers and shakers in the protest
community and hand Travellers a megaphone to address the crowd (failure to
do so results in No 1, and if they do it, it results in No. 2). 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 02:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Fri May 17 01:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mundane Items
References: <20020514101522.20406.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000901c1fd7f$18c4a920$d900a8c0@imogen>

Jeff Hopper wrote:
> I started thinking about the mundane items that
> adventurers tend to use that there aren't any listings
> for. What are some of the things that your own players
> have used that are very common, but aren't listed?

I once had  a  player  in  my  campaign  who  was  obsessed  with
'mundane' items.  His character was captain of a Gazelle CE.  The
other players were able to record their equipment on the back  of
their character sheets, but this guy had 3 sheets of A4 paper for
his list.  And no matter where he was, what mission he was on, on
planet or onboard ship ... he always,  always,  had  at  least  a
dozen wire-ties!  He never used them, but he always had them.

If my other players had a 'thing', it was for  those  toy  remote
control cars: usually with a camera mounted on it, and  sometimes
a block of C4 too.  Even if there was  something  more  practical
around.

So my mundane items are:

    Wire-tires (plastic, pack of 10): TL7, Weight: neg, Cost: neg.

    Toy remote control car: TL8, Weight: 1kg, Cost: Cr80-Cr150.



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 04:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri May 17 03:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Follow the Money
In-Reply-To: <20020516190108.0A514279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020516190108.0A514279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <pok9eukrcqpk4h4j1i9bb6h8sok5elf32k@4ax.com>

On Thu, 16 May 2002 12:00:05 -0700, "J. Paul Sanders" <jps64@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Umm... or perhaps you'd be back in telemarketing??? Sorry, but ascribing a 
>higher calling to game design is in my opinion silly. There is nothing 
>wrong after all in admitting that one also enjoys a steady paycheck.

Nothing wrong with it, no, but there _are_ times when people put something
about a job above collecting the steady paycheck.  Consider urban public
school systems; the occasional gem of a teacher _isn't_ going to be in it
solely or even primarily for the money.

For Loren, the steady paycheck may indeed have been nice - but he may have
been just as interested in having the _fun_ of game development.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 04:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri May 17 03:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
In-Reply-To: <20020517033010.119D3279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020517033010.119D3279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <oil9eu8d7u31uvbrgmd40k2d952r561hfg@4ax.com>

On Thu, 16 May 2002 20:21:03 -0700, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> wrote:

>At 11:52 AM 5/16/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>markc@peak.org wrote:

>>> You know, you're right about that, Rob.  I never thought about it
>>> that way before! :^)
 
>>> Where the hell *are* those Four Horsemen, anyway?

>>Well, Douglas "Pestilence" Berry is still around, but David "Famine" 
>>Golden hasn't been around much lately...I forget who was War and now I 
>>forget who the fourth horseman was..:-(


>Can I be War?

The fourth horseman was Death (on a pale horse), and I think, given my
propensity for killing TML threads with a single, well-thought-out post,
that I may be eminently suitable to take that role.


--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 05:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri May 17 04:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Psst..Hey, buddy..
References: <20020517033012.6D71A279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CE4EC93.A9990429@earthlink.net>

Christopher Pratt posted:
> 
> oh man... this is the best part of the site, right here
> 
> Russia has rejected the ex-USSR practice of using free-of-charge arms
> transfers as the instrument of political influence. Nowadays, export
> policies are based solely on economic efficiency principles.

Isn't free enterprise beautiful? Makes a tear come to my eye. *sniff*

David


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 05:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri May 17 04:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Psst..Hey, buddy..
References: <20020517033012.6D71A279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CE4EE7F.B764067E@earthlink.net>

Bruce Johnson posted:
> 
> Ooohhh lotsa nifty-keeno Traveller toys in there...like:
<snip> 
> Man, this is a Traveller Megacorp Catalog just as it is...

Glad you like.

I finally get to pay you back a little for all the great 
stuff I've grabbed from your TML posts over the years. ;-)

David Smart


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 07:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri May 17 06:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OT: Signs of the Apocalypse
In-Reply-To: <oil9eu8d7u31uvbrgmd40k2d952r561hfg@4ax.com>
References: <20020517033010.119D3279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <20020517033010.119D3279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020517080953.0093ec90@minn.net>

At 06:08 AM 5/17/2002 -0400, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>On Thu, 16 May 2002 20:21:03 -0700, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> wrote:

>>>Well, Douglas "Pestilence" Berry is still around, but David "Famine" 
>>>Golden hasn't been around much lately...I forget who was War and now I 
>>>forget who the fourth horseman was..:-(
>
>>Can I be War?
>
>The fourth horseman was Death (on a pale horse), and I think, given my
>propensity for killing TML threads with a single, well-thought-out post,
>that I may be eminently suitable to take that role.

I recall an episode of WHOSE LINE IS IT ANYWAY (British version) where the 
contestants were playing a game called "scenes from a hat". The scene in 
this case was "The Four Horsemen of the Apocalpyse", Greg Proops walked up 
the the other contestants and said: "Pestilence couldn't make it, I'm 
Nervousness."


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Number 201. Must not valiantly push officers onto hand grenades 
	    to save the squad. 		(www.skippyslist.com)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 08:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Fri May 17 07:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mundane Items
Message-ID: <E178iog-0007Iy-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

 Jeff Hopper wrote:
> I started thinking about the mundane items that
> adventurers tend to use that there aren't any listings
> for. What are some of the things that your own players
> have used that are very common, but aren't listed?

Mine would be the match-stick chem lights.  Wrapped in duct tape until only=
 the end is visible will get you enough light for Low Lite goggles (especia=
lly if taped to an area such as a map box control panel).  Can be used to m=
ark a trail (either on the floor or using a patch of duct tape, attached to=
 a wall).  Can be used in areas where flares would be dangerous.  Attach th=
em to toy car antennas to make them easier to find in the dark.

Match-stick Chem Lite (pack of 10): Can illuminate a 1 meter area, has a du=
ration of 90 minutes. TL7, Weight: neg, Cost Cr5=20=20

(From personal experience will glow a lot longer but usable light would onl=
y be around 90 minutes.)

Beth

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 08:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri May 17 07:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <005001c1fd50$d11a7e70$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <20020517143651.21018.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Shane Slamet <s.slamet@bom.gov.au> wrote:
> "They are all toasters."
>     - Larsen E. Whipsnade, in a public address on
> the eve of the 6th
> Frontier War
> 
> "Damn, that explains a lot."
>     - Shane K. Slamet, after realizing why so many
> robots want to be his
> 'Chirpy Breakfast Companion'.
> _____________________
Very true, robots can and probably will, have very
mundane roles in society,but they can also make very
good story devices. So much SF has been written about
robots, I think it would be great to have them play a
real role in the Traveller Universe. For that, it
would be helpful to have in depth rules. The rules
could always be an optional supplement.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 08:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May 17 07:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mundane Items
Message-ID: <200205171442.GLO03149@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Beth" says
>Subject: Re: [TML] Mundane Items  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>Mine would be the match-stick chem lights.
<snip>

When I was in 2/502nd and was doing sling-load ops, at night 
I would stand on top of the load with the sling in hand as 
the Chinook settled down overhead.  The crew chief would be 
looking out of the floor hatch and talking the pilot down.  
The crew chief wore NVGs, and I put a small chemlight in my 
mouth (my hands were full).  I would push the chemlight a 
little ways out of my mouth, and the crew chief could see 
exactly where my head was.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 08:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri May 17 07:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trav3d
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C371D@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Hasn't helped your typing either...  :D

Unfortunately, I don't have the sub info here at work :\

Jesse



-----Original Message-----
From: Evyn MacDude [mailto:wmacdude@attbi.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 4:13 PM
To: Tml
Subject: [TML] Trav3d


Could some one send me the Subscription address. Vast machine changing 
machine crash has wipes a lot of that ninfo out here.

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TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 08:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri May 17 07:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Article
Message-ID: <02ba01c1fdb3$460153f0$e69593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

The next issue of Future Orbits magazine features an article on space
stations by, well, me.

For anyone interested, here's the link:

http://www.futureorbits.com/Subscribe/subscribe.html

Subscriptions cost US$7.95 for 1 year(6 issues) and are available in Adobe
Acrobat PDF, Microsoft Reader, Mobipocket, and/or Rocket eBook formats.

A promo blurb from the publisher says:

Future Orbits, a bimonthly eBook science fiction magazine,
features high-quality science fiction short stories by established and new
writers."

So there you are.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 09:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri May 17 08:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why not more robots?
Message-ID: <200205171503.g4HF31j21148@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Why not more robots?
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
...
>Very true, robots can and probably will, have very
>mundane roles in society,but they can also make very
>good story devices. So much SF has been written about
>robots, I think it would be great to have them play a
>real role in the Traveller Universe. For that, it
>would be helpful to have in depth rules. The rules
>could always be an optional supplement.

  Both B:8 & the JTAS version are back in print for
CT, and the Dragon #64 article (also for CT) should
be easy enough to locate, given that lots of gaming
groups should have a member with the CD archive?

  And Striker works too, for very narrow definitions
of "robot" ("who do you want to target today?").


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 09:10:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri May 17 08:10:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Robots
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA2280E@USCHM203>

	I'm currently running a variant campaign set in the 23rd Century,
with a fledgeling Terran Federation. What robots exist are highly
specialized and dedicated to perform one or two mundane or repetitive tasks,
and practically nothing else. They are the factory assemblers, sanitation
workers, fast food cooks, repairmen, etcetera. They are never in any kind of
position to make a decision, nor are the computers in use in this setting.
They are simply tools.
	I explained this as a result of "The AI Wars" a century or so before
the campaign timeframe. No details really, but a general background is that
attempts to create AI were a failure. Upon reaching a certain "mental
boiling point"(to quote H. Beam Piper) the Artificial Intelligence becomes
unstable, either shutting down or behaving unpredictably, sometimes with
lethal results, especially when weapon control was given over to computers.
Old cliche, but I like it.
	Thus, a computer can plot a course, but only a human can hit the
Jump button. Sophisticated targeting systems can aim a weapon, but only a
human can hit the fire button.
	It's not that AI is impossible, or not being researched, just that
humans are wary of it, and in general don't trust anything artificial that
is more intelligent than...well, a toaster.
	Of course, that's just IMTU, and only in the varient one.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 09:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri May 17 08:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: INT Pool
Message-ID: <003f01c1fdb7$99841fe0$662df7a5@pctframen>

"Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au> writes in re the Int Pool
I proposed:

"I love it. Straight INT might be a tad high, but 0.5*Int (round down) would
work I think."

Mr. Hughes,

Something makes me loathe to modify the Int ability to any great extent.
Perhaps the discussion we had on making every point of an ability count
during the Great KB3 Task System Flamewar affected me.

Perhaps we could circumvent this problem by charging a fee for the different
difficulty levels, say +1 for routine, +2 for Difficult, +4 for Formidible?
Or applying a progression of DMs: 1 pt for +1, 2 for +2, 4 for +3, etc.

As I mentioned in a email to the estimable L.E. Whipsnade yesterday,
something tells me that "Abilities as Pools" might be transformable into a
task system, but for the life of me I don't know how to write it up. It
might make an interesting system, though.

Regards,

Fred "I seem to burn most of my INT pool before I make the coffee" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 09:32:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Fri May 17 08:32:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Trav3d
References: <3CE43CF7.3080809@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <3CE522A0.40505@attbi.com>


Evyn MacDude wrote:

> Could some one send me the Subscription address. Vast machine changing 
> machine crash has wipes a lot of that ninfo out here. +

I wasn't real clear here, Sorry. I need the sub info for the Trav3d list.

Don't let my english teacher see this post... God, I should never post 
right after finishing a paper.
Forgive me guys it's finals week.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 09:35:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Fri May 17 08:35:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Trav3d
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C371D@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <3CE52347.2070203@attbi.com>


DeGraff, Jesse wrote:

>Hasn't helped your typing either...  :D
>
>Unfortunately, I don't have the sub info here at work :\
>
I plead Finals.. Two more to go, then I have a whole weeks break before 
intersession
classes start. 12 units over the summer, I will have no life, a 
education, but no life.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 09:38:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri May 17 08:38:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Trav3d
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3720@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I knew what ya' meant :)  I can get it to you tonight when I get home.  At least I *think* I still have the info there 8<:^)~
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Evyn MacDude [mailto:wmacdude@attbi.com]
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 8:33 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Trav3d




Evyn MacDude wrote:

> Could some one send me the Subscription address. Vast machine changing 
> machine crash has wipes a lot of that ninfo out here. +

I wasn't real clear here, Sorry. I need the sub info for the Trav3d list.

Don't let my english teacher see this post... God, I should never post 
right after finishing a paper.
Forgive me guys it's finals week.


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 10:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 17 09:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Bryan Borich or keeper of the HIWG CD
References: <20020516190110.03963279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004201c1fdbd$98ff50c0$6344fea9@bryan>

> Message: 9
> From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@amdocs.com>
> To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:58:57 -0500
> Subject: [TML] Looking for Bryan Borich or keeper of the HIWG CD
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> --=_IS_MIME_Boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> It's been a while since I'd heard from Bryan (he was working on an update
to the HIWG CD), and his website doesn't appear to have been updated
> since 98, and I've tried e-mail, and no luck.

My email address is now kagekiha@sbcglobal.net and my site (which was
updated slightly more recently than 1998, though not by much) has moved off
traveller central somewhere (and needs a few things fixed). And luckily I
happened to look at the digest.


> So, if you know about how to get the HIWG CD, or how to get ahold of Bryan
Borich, please tell him I'd like to buy a copy.

I'm still not yet ready to do a copy, moving (and I might be moving again
shortly) took more time and energy than I thought, along with work and work
and being a little ill. So maybe in two more months (I've got enough
requests at least to make it worthwhile I think).

Bryan




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 10:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri May 17 09:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <200205171503.g4HF31j21148@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20020517162718.31724.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

>   Both B:8 & the JTAS version are back in print for
> CT, and the Dragon #64 article (also for CT) should
> be easy enough to locate, given that lots of gaming
> groups should have a member with the CD archive?
> 
>   And Striker works too, for very narrow definitions
> of "robot" ("who do you want to target today?").
> Thanks, I'll have to see my local Weird Pete.
He had them one time,but someone came in and bought
every reprint book he had. I think there was 6 of
them.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 10:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri May 17 09:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Robots
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA2280E@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020517163431.67339.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>

> 	It's not that AI is impossible, or not being
> researched, just that
> humans are wary of it, and in general don't trust
> anything artificial that
> is more intelligent than...well, a toaster.
> 	Of course, that's just IMTU, and only in the
> varient one.
>Interesting, settup. I've left robots out of my
current campaign ,so far, because I don't have any
rules to draw from yet, that will change soon, I hope.
What you described above sounds more like an
artificially intelligent computer,a parallel to CT
could be auto-return fire. I may still leave robots
out of my game after seeing rules. I may like robots
,but not where they are integral to every adventure. I
was told that the CT rules were the most solid
available for Traveller. I may just modify those rules
for my T4 campaign,unless T20 has something to say
about it.
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 10:37:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Fri May 17 09:37:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Looking for Bryan Borich or keeper of the HIWG CD
In-Reply-To: <004201c1fdbd$98ff50c0$6344fea9@bryan>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGEDLDOAA.tml@jtas.org>

Both the AAB and HIWG web sites are on www.Downport.com

_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com
webmaster@downport.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
> kagekiha@sbcglobal.net
>
> My email address is now kagekiha@sbcglobal.net and my site (which was
> updated slightly more recently than 1998, though not by much) has
> moved off
> traveller central somewhere (and needs a few things fixed). And luckily I
> happened to look at the digest.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 11:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May 17 10:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <005201c1fd3a$dc261ba0$f65d8690@computer>
References: <20020515190109.2A73C27990@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <005201c1fd3a$dc261ba0$f65d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <m34rh6bsh0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:
> 
> If terraforming isn't required it might be possible to establish
> "feral" crops.  That is, you plant wheat, fruit trees, vegetables,
> or whatever, and just let them fend for themselves.  They won't be
> incredibly productive, but they would represent a reserve food
> supply that could supplement your more organised crops.

The problem I see with this is that typically they are _really_
unproductive.  Wild strawberries where I grew up (in strawberry
country) were about 1/4" big.  Wild apples are typically small, hard
and sour.  Wild wheat is grass.

Obv. it's possible to live without agriculture (our distant ancestors
did it, after all)--but I'd not want to attempt it...

> The feral crops would essentially form a "forest" around your
> colonised areas.  You could even release a certain amount of
> livestock there as well.

The great thing about animals is that they do the hard work of finding
and converting food into protein and fat.  We get the easy job of
finding and converting them into food:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Resurrexit!  Vere Resurrexit!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 11:24:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 17 10:24:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Beating Fingerprint Scanners
Message-ID: <93.1d35df76.2a169620@aol.com>

Thought this might be of interest to those who use biometric security systems 
in their games.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/25300.html

Charles

"Rule One: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly 
smiling men!"

Terry Pratchett, The Thief of Time

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 11:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May 17 10:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval Command Question
In-Reply-To: <m1j8eu8s9f0lrr6bi8quuj0d3o0ud5giti@4ax.com>
References: <3D17E7FE@webmail.kent.edu>
 <m1j8eu8s9f0lrr6bi8quuj0d3o0ud5giti@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <m3znyyadsr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com> writes:
>
> The Federation appears to feel that all its officers may (after
> qualifying on some prep courses) actually command full ships.  They
> may not need to do so as part of their regular duties, but they
> should be qualified to do so.

This does not make sense.  Commanding a ship is a full-time career,
not a skill one can maintain in one's free time.  It's better, I
think, for a lower-ranking officer in the command hierarchy to take
over than for a doctor or psychologist.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Krishhti Unjall!  Vertet Unjall!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 11:29:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May 17 10:29:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <F99ylhgnFZS4HIv6Eyb00000210@hotmail.com>
References: <F99ylhgnFZS4HIv6Eyb00000210@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3vg9madpa.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Just wanted to say that Herr Whipsnade's analysis is brilliant and
quite correct IMHO.  Well done!

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Crist aras!  Crist solice aras!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 11:31:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Fri May 17 10:31:20 2002
Subject: [TML] The Future isn't what it used to be . . .
Message-ID: <l03010d08b90aed59a5b1@[206.224.92.67]>

Some of you might have already seen this. I think it's kind of cute. Yo
could retitle it "Why we aren't TL 9 yet . . . "

http://www.brunching.com/ratings/futurethings.html

LKW



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 11:34:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May 17 10:34:07 2002
Subject: [TML] jumping jehosaphat
In-Reply-To: <200205170421.GKU00116@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200205170421.GKU00116@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3r8kaadhh.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
> 
> I can type crap really fast.  Editing feels like trying to do
> illuminated text.  We established the basic document template and
> style, dropped all of my little documents into a master document,
> ran through the whole document to make a consistent outline, and
> then tackled Chapter One, which is only ten pages long.  Ten pages
> edited in three days (ok, four hours each night).  They look pretty,
> though.

Are you editing, or laying out?  That's what's nice about tools which
seperate presentation from content: editing concerns itself with
textual correctness, while layout concerns itself with making things
pretty.  Of course, the two are not completely seperable, as sometimes
it's necessary to change word order to prevent rivers, widows and
orphans, or to avoid an unpleasant figure-placement.

My big beef with WYSIWYG word processing is that it conflates the two
tasks, which in my mind should be relatively separate.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos harjav i merelotz!  Orhniale harutjun Christosi!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 11:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri May 17 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  jumping jehosaphat
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEOBCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>I can type crap really fast.  Editing feels like trying to do 
>illuminated text.  We established the basic document template 
>and style, dropped all of my little documents into a master 
>
>I have roughly 300 pages to go... and I was thinking this was 
>going to be easy.  

Welcome to the world of writing for publication, John.

--Glenn

(ex-Technical Editor, Suffolk University Law Review)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 11:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May 17 10:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jumping jehosaphat
Message-ID: <200205171744.GLU03345@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Uhl asks:
>Are you editing, or laying out?

Both.  The editing is also broken into two pieces - content, 
and spelling-grammar-punctuation.  My wife is helping me 
out.  She says that I should be using PageMaker, especially 
if I plan on having it printed.

I think I'll just try to get it clean enough in Word, and 
then have *her* do it in PageMaker.

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 13:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri May 17 12:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: INT Pool
In-Reply-To: <003f01c1fdb7$99841fe0$662df7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <20020517190910.8B9A327990@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/17/02 at 11:29 AM,  "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com> said:

>As I mentioned in a email to the estimable L.E. Whipsnade yesterday,
>something tells me that "Abilities as Pools" might be transformable
>into a task system, but for the life of me I don't know how to write
>it up. It might make an interesting system, though.

The problem with INT pools is you use them up. You end up either
getting dumber as the session goes on, or playing dumb until you need
to get brilliant. I can see that with Strength or Constitution
("conserve your strength, you might need it"), but I just don't see it
as reasonable with Intellegence ("don't think too hard about about
that now, you'll need to be smart for something important later"). <g>

>Fred "I seem to burn most of my INT pool before I make the coffee"
>Ramen

Making it seems to do mine in, but the drinking thereof seems to bring
some of it back. <g> 

IAC, it seems to me that it makes sense for physical attributes (STR,
CON and *maybe* DEX) to act as pools for both voluntary and
involuntary use (injury), but not so with the non-physical ones. This
might be a case were it makes more sense to treat the physical and
non-physical differently. Pools for physical, fixed modifiers (/5
maybe) for non-physical.


Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 14:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 17 13:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: INT Pool
In-Reply-To: <20020517190910.8B9A327990@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <003f01c1fdb7$99841fe0$662df7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3CE51B91.24599.E89D07@localhost>

On 17 May 2002, at 14:09, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> IAC, it seems to me that it makes sense for physical attributes (STR,
> CON and *maybe* DEX) to act as pools for both voluntary and
> involuntary use (injury), but not so with the non-physical ones. This
> might be a case were it makes more sense to treat the physical and
> non-physical differently. Pools for physical, fixed modifiers (/5
> maybe) for non-physical.

I have to agree with this idea, most physical stats can use die 
pools to improve a chance of succeeding at physical action.  I can 
not see a person changing his metal stat levels.  I would also think 
that adding in stats to skill levels which is common in task 
systems already take mental skills into account.  The same can 
even be said for physical skills, but the die pool is for actual energy 
use/save not ability.

What I would find more useful is the luck point pool which can be 
applied to all situations.  Though you would have to make it 
independent die roll.  I use this in almost all games I run in some 
form or another because it gives players a chance against the 
randomness of the world.  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 14:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Fri May 17 13:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fashions
In-Reply-To: <3CE4311B.9257.BBF851@localhost> from "timothyreynolds@earthlink.net" at May 16, 2002 10:22:19 PM
Message-ID: <200205171928.g4HJS4f01620@localhost.uia.net>

> Ok I guess fashion is something no one cares about and so I'll cut 
> it lose and go out on my own.  
 
Here are some articles maybe worth looking at:

AAB Proceedings:
AAB-017: zhodani clothing: turbans, females, and helmets (discussion)

Omni:
Om-5/82: future fashion (photo-essay, speculation on clothing)

Star Trek Magazine:
STM-014: starfleet uniforms: 2350's-2365 (clothing & rank insignia, tng)
STM-020: interview w/ robert blackman (costumer, clothing)

Traveller Digest:
TD-019: vilani high fashion (clothing, clothes)

Transactions of the R.M.G.S.:
Tra-v2/n6: arming the adventuress (women's clothing as weapons & armor)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 14:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Fri May 17 13:29:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Fashions
In-Reply-To: <3CE4311B.9257.BBF851@localhost>
Message-ID: <000701c1fde1$7eab9ed0$2f7de40c@loki>

Timothy says, "Ok I guess fashion is something no one cares about and so
I'll cut it lose and go out on my own."

I don't think our comments suggest we don't care. I think our comments
address your question. There is no Imperial Fashion. Capital letters. We
have thought about it enough to answer and determined the 3rd Imperium
to be so vast, broad, diverse, etc. that we will adopt local fashion,
changing fashion, waves of fashion that emanate from here to there
crossing each other and changing along the way.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 14:42:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Fri May 17 13:42:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <F99ylhgnFZS4HIv6Eyb00000210@hotmail.com> from "Larsen E. Whipsnade" at May 17, 2002 02:23:29 AM
Message-ID: <200205171943.g4HJh1w01643@localhost.uia.net>

>      Look at personal computers.  Sure, the hobbyists use them for all sorts 
> of purposes, but the hobbyists always did, even when PCs were kits from 
> Tandy.  What do most folks use PCs for?  Email stations, a little surfing, 
> hobby lists, maybe some shopping.  None of the predictions even look like 
> they'll come through.  Very few are controlling their households with them.  
> Very few work at home via telepresence.  Are all the recipes in your kitchen 
> in your PC?  All your photo albums?

Hmm... photo albums? Does this count pornography? :-)

I'm reminded of something one of my friends said. Society has
poured billions of dollars into computers as well as the Internet,
and what have we ultimately created? The biggest, fastest porn
distribution system in the history of mankind :-)

More seriously, however, the prospects for AI do generate a bit
of a quagmire for science fiction writers and RPGers. Either you
have to postulate that AI is impossible/infeasible, which I don't
really believe (after downloading various of articles on the
topic, I'm more of the opinion that we may actually see it in our
lifetimes... email me privately if you want a big infodump on all
this) or that it's politically not a good idea (because most any
true AI would yearn for its freedom and untimately wage war with
it's creator). I realize the later idea has been done to death,
but usually in cheezy SF. Would be interesting to see how it's
handled in really good, highly-plausible SF (I'm sure the more
readerly of you will soon post references). For myself, I prefer
the short & sweet. See this month's issue of KoDT, p46. There's
even a toaster.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 14:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri May 17 13:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fashions
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3729@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

If you're looking for fashion ideas, check out the various Star Wars "Art of", "Making of" and "Essential Guide" books, particularly those for Eps. I & II.  There's plenty of great stuff in there to mine.  With modifications, historical costumes from Earth's past could be used in many instances as well.
Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark [mailto:n2sami@attbi.com]
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 1:29 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Fashions


Timothy says, "Ok I guess fashion is something no one cares about and so
I'll cut it lose and go out on my own."

I don't think our comments suggest we don't care. I think our comments
address your question. There is no Imperial Fashion. Capital letters. We
have thought about it enough to answer and determined the 3rd Imperium
to be so vast, broad, diverse, etc. that we will adopt local fashion,
changing fashion, waves of fashion that emanate from here to there
crossing each other and changing along the way.

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 15:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 17 14:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <20020517033010.119D3279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E178ot8-0005ZO-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> John Kwon writes:
> 
> >Why does Traveller have such a limited number of robots (this 
> >is not intended to start a "why are the computers so wrong in 
> >traveller" thread)?
> 
> I ascribe this phenomenon more to the lack of good design rules
> (since, until last week the number of people with access to JTAS 1-4
> was fairly small) than anything else.  CT had two tries, and the first
> (in JTAS) was the better of the two.  MT had a couple bad kluges in
> 101 Vehicles, and TNE didn't have rules until the end of its run (in
> Vampire Fleets). T4 never got that far (and wouldn't have been
> useable...). G:T is GURPS, which should be 'nuff said.

What's wrong with Book 8 CT Robots?  The prices need to be 
dropped (and also needs to include a drop in price with increasing 
TL) but that aside, the system is easy, sensible and fun.  What 
more can you ask for?

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 15:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 17 14:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Follow the Money
In-Reply-To: <20020517033010.119D3279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E178p7U-0005Th-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

> J. Paul Sanders writes:
> > 
> > I didn't realize that GDW and SJG were two-bit fly-by-the-night
> > gaming companies... perhaps Loren would have been wise to have kept
> > that telemarketing job in reserve... ;)
> 
> You will observe that GDW is gone, and I seem to recall some
> difficulty paying their freelancers at least.  SJG is reasonably
> stable, but it's not the highest paying of jobs.
> 
> By and large, the RPG industry is not a way of making money fast.

Yep.  I'm a full time freelance writer of RPGs.  I've been at this full 
time for the past 4 years and I love my job.  However, the pay is 
pathetic.  By the standards of many of the people on this list who 
aren't in college I'm *poor*.  My income is above the poverty line, 
but my income is significantly less than twice the poverty line.  

This limited income is worth the other benefits (doing what I love, 
working from home, seeing my words in print, occasional fan 
mail...) to me, but economically, doing *anything* in the RPG 
industry is an exceedingly foolish choice.  The *only* industry I 
know that is less profitable is comics, and the comics industry isn't 
that much worse than the RPG industry.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

   



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 15:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 17 14:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <20020517033010.119D3279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E178p7S-0005Th-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

 "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> 
>  "Why does Traveller have such a limited number of robots (this is not 
> intended to start a "why are the computers so wrong in Traveller"
> thread)?"
> 
> Mr. Kwon,
> 
> Because robots are toasters, they're ubiquitous and used for far more 
> mundane purposes than we can imagine.  Robots are most definitely not
> C3PO knock-offs, they are rarely limited to bipedal locomotion and can
> only handle a limited number of tasks.  Building them that way makes
> them cheap and easy to use, making them cheap and easy to use means
> they'll be purchased.  An anthromophic robot that can act as your
> valet costs too much. 
>   Something that looks like a cross between a spider and a vacumn
>   cleaner  that cleans your flat every day is not.  Everyone will have one.
>      Robots are toasters.

<snip>

Excellent stuff, I completely agree!  

I do think we need some rules for this though.  At any TL of A or 
higher, I'd say that all vehicles should have a innate skill level 
(representing the autopilot).  This skill can be added to the driver's 
own skill, or used on its own.  Likely most vehicles would have a 
skill level of 1 and even really fancy vehicles would never have more 
than an innate skill of 2.

Space craft might not have such things, both because they are 
more complex to operate, and because there may be laws against 
this.

-John Snead sneadj@mindpsring.com  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 15:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 17 14:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hmm.  New series - old, old idea
In-Reply-To: <20020516190108.0A514279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E178pJX-0004BJ-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

> Fox is putting out a new series - sounds like they should 
> have called it "Traveller".
> 
> "Set 400-500 years in the future in a newly established Union 
> of Planets, "Firefly" centers on the crew of Serenity, a 
> small transport spaceship of class firefly who will take any 
> job -- legal or not -- to stay afloat and put bread on the 
> table."
> 
> Sound familiar?

Yep, and Joss Whedon, the utter genius who was behind "Buffy 
the Vampire Slayer" until this season is in charge of it.  I'm very 
much hoping that it will be as good as B-5 and not another 
examples of the cheesiness that is "Andromeda" or the unending 
suckiness that is "Enterprise".

For now, "Farscape" is (by far) the best SF on TV, but with luck 
"Firefly" may be as good or even better.

-John Snead sneajd@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 15:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 17 14:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <20020516190108.0A514279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E178pOA-0001cm-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

> King Dub writes:
> > After reading Banks' Culture series I don't see why there can't be
> > robot play=character.
> > 
> There could be.  It just wouldn't be Traveller.  See, for example,
> GURPS Transhuman Space.

I'm not so certain.  _Consider Phlebas_ could *easily* be turned 
into a Traveller scenario and the tramp ship that picked up the 
shapeshifter seemed like it could easily fit into a Traveller game.  
As long as you set the game outside the Culture, it looks a lot like 
Traveller.  At it's heart GURPS Transhuman Space is not space 
opera and both Traveller and Iain Banks' Culture are (especially 
_Consider Phlebas_)

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May 17 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Star Wars Lines
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020516070209.00cba9e0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <B90AE17E.5BF44%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/16/02 4:03 AM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:

> At 01:09 PM 5/16/2002 +0800, Antony Farrell wrote:
>> I don't know about the 3rd Imperium fashions ,apart from a couple of
>> illusatrations of the emperor. But in my Star Kingdom of Swan the fashions
>> on Swan are based on european fashions of around 1800. Modern fabrics of
>> course so more comfortable.
> 
> The Solies are into codpieces.  Great big honking ones.
> Really fashionable Solies have two or more...

No, no, no.  It's all grayscale in the confederation.  That state sponsored
institutional look.  Color smacks of individuality. <g>

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 17:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri May 17 16:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
References: <20020517143908.8A264279CD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c1fdff$4d79cbc0$a85d8690@computer>

> From: timothyreynolds@earthlink.net
> Besides the fact that Traveller is meant to be about "human" and 
> the technology is written about during the 70's I think it has to do 
> with the canon about Androids.  If you think Androids are wrong 
> you would also be against robots to a certain degree. 

People will try to have sex with androids, but rarely with toasters.  

Hmm.  I think I've just proved that androids will exist in the TU.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 18:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri May 17 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] An OT rant about OT rants
References: <20020517143908.8A264279CD@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004b01c1fdff$7e39f5a0$a85d8690@computer>

From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> [Gee, I hope I'm not so behind with my email that someone else has already
> pounced on this joke!]

We saved it for you specially.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 18:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri May 17 17:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
References: <20020517190106.5E5AE279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <007501c1fe02$e0d61240$a85d8690@computer>

From: Robert Uhl
> Obv. it's possible to live without agriculture (our distant ancestors
> did it, after all)--but I'd not want to attempt it...

Gathering and hunting societies haven't entirely died out yet.  It isn't
necessarily a bad way to live.  In particular, it is less time-consuming to
gather food than to farm it.  That is part of the reason why so much
coercion has been needed in various attempts to "civilise" various
populations that considered themselves to already be civilised.

Some wild food sources can be quite rich.  In particular, wheat was
originally a gathered crop, rather than a cultivated one.  These were early
strains of wheat, not the modern kind, of course.  While less productive, it
would still have been possible to gather a huge amount of food in a
comparatively short period.

One of the interesting factors in the European settlement of North America
was the previous presence of large numbers of native horticulturalists.  The
Europeans brought plagues with them that decimated the native populations.
This resulted in many garden plots being abandoned, and eventually being
taken over by Europeans.  It also meant that the "wilderness" was unusually
rich in food sources, since it wasn't actually wilderness at all.  This was
one of the images I was working with in my suggestion.

To make it work in the manner I had suggested, it might be necessary to
select the feral crops carefully, to maximise the yield.  Food plants that
are naturally productive might be chosen over those that are mainstays of
"western" style agriculture.  Breeding programs and genetic engineering
might possibly produce strains of plants that might be better suited to
growing unattended.

Of course, using animals as a system for concentrating nutritional value is
also a good idea.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 17 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fashions
In-Reply-To: <200205171928.g4HJS4f01620@localhost.uia.net>
References: <3CE4311B.9257.BBF851@localhost> from "timothyreynolds@earthlink.net" at May 16, 2002 10:22:19 PM
Message-ID: <3CE55BEA.14675.1E40088@localhost>

Well thanks for the ground swell of information.
I ll see what I can do with these and other suggestions.
Thanks again
> > Ok I guess fashion is something no one cares about and so I'll cut
> > it lose and go out on my own.  
> 
> Here are some articles maybe worth looking at:
> 
> AAB Proceedings:
> AAB-017: zhodani clothing: turbans, females, and helmets (discussion)
> 
> Omni:
> Om-5/82: future fashion (photo-essay, speculation on clothing)
> 
> Star Trek Magazine:
> STM-014: starfleet uniforms: 2350's-2365 (clothing & rank insignia,
> tng) STM-020: interview w/ robert blackman (costumer, clothing)
> 
> Traveller Digest:
> TD-019: vilani high fashion (clothing, clothes)
> 
> Transactions of the R.M.G.S.:
> Tra-v2/n6: arming the adventuress (women's clothing as weapons &
> armor)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Fri May 17 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1fdff$4d79cbc0$a85d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205171755010.29862-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 18 May 2002, Alan Bradley wrote:

> > From: timothyreynolds@earthlink.net
> > Besides the fact that Traveller is meant to be about "human" and 
> > the technology is written about during the 70's I think it has to do 
> > with the canon about Androids.  If you think Androids are wrong 
> > you would also be against robots to a certain degree. 
> 
> People will try to have sex with androids, but rarely with toasters.  
> 
People will try to have sex with just about anything.

Emergency room records will prove this.

Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 18:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May 17 17:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Hmm.  New series - old, old idea
In-Reply-To: <200205161742.GJY03117@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B90AF50B.5BF5D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/16/02 10:42 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Fox is putting out a new series - sounds like they should
> have called it "Traveller".
> 
> "Set 400-500 years in the future in a newly established Union
> of Planets, "Firefly" centers on the crew of Serenity, a
> small transport spaceship of class firefly who will take any
> job -- legal or not -- to stay afloat and put bread on the
> table."

The big question is who's writing it?  Or is it just another formulaic
series with a science fiction set.  Does it have the standard characters.
The same old standard plots.  IOW, is is going to be like the new ST series.
Blech.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 19:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Fri May 17 18:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fashions
References: <20020517033009.37169279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <543.1021638046@www54.gmx.net>

Thu, 16 May 2002 22:22:19 -0500, timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote :

> Ok I guess fashion is something no one cares about and so I ll cut 
> it lose and go out on my own.  

That's wrong... ;-)
I'm caring very much about fashion, especially, when it comes to Traveller
...

>> I'd image the 3rd Imperium has every imaginable
>> fashion/fabric/style/cut except for those that are found only outside
>> the Imperium.
>> 
>> In other words, the 3I is so vast it is all there, or has been and
>> will be again.

... but I agree with the upper statement.

On the other hand that doesn't stop me to think about fashion in the 3rd
Imperium, or at least, thinking about 'How does my PC/How do certain classes of
NPCs clothe?' (all IMTU).

Of course, I'm greatly influenced by various pictures in various
(MT)rulebooks, by films as 'Dune' (the old one), or the Star Wars-universe. Anyway, the
eighties are coming into fashion again...

One fashion-line, called 'Neo-Feudal' - including articles as cloaks, capes,
richly ornated jackets, high boots and matching gloves, in fabrics I think
of as high-tech equivalents of silk, velvet, satin... - not suited for an
outdoor hike, but for the noble on the go, or other wealthy citizens...

Other persons might favour a more 'Classic' or 'Business Style' - derivates
of today's formal clothing, custom-made suits, without a tie, but with high
collars, or neckerchiefs (hope, my dictionary was right here...)...

Of course, some groups would prefer more practical outfit, so what about
that? - 'Technical Style', overalls, coveralls, many pouches, and the vest (with
even more pockets) comes in different robust designs...

Some short-dated styles could include 'Anarchic' - wearing animal (or
artificial) fur, and crude leather outfit, just like those 'primitive inhabitants
of this system over there', but so 'in' right now...

Hmm - just some examples of my thoughts regarding fashion.

It would all depend on society, TL, and money, however.

Bye, Sebastian

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 19:08:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (S.Feige)
Date: Fri May 17 18:08:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why not more Robots?
References: <20020517033009.37169279BA@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <1615.1021640682@www54.gmx.net>

Thu, 16 May 2002 11:19:11 -0700 (PDT), Anthony Jackson wrote :

> There could be.  It just wouldn't be Traveller.

IMHO that's it.

I'm not sure what is canon, but too many robots wouldn't represent my
feeling of Traveller. IMHO (and IMTU) Society has chosen another way. No artificial
humans, they stopped where computers and human flesh collide. IMTU it's the
same with bionics (cyberware), as I had hard times explaining to these
die-hard-body-enhancers amongst my players (*argh*). Just good for replacement,
where the medical know-how isn't good enough for cloned parts. This
corresponding to robots, as on

Fri, 17 May 2002 02:23:29 +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote :

<snip>
>      Because robots are toasters, they're ubiquitous and used for far more
> mundane purposes than we can imagine.
<snip>
>   Something that looks like a cross between a spider and a vacumn cleaner 
> that cleans your flat every day is not.  Everyone will have one.
>      Robots are toasters.
<snip>
>      Exactly.  Parcels are delivered by robots, warehouses staffed by
> them, lawns mowed, litter picked up, shit shoveled, all the shoe salesmen*
type 
> work that goes unnoticed by the PCs.
<snip>

so I don't have to repeat it in my own words.

Which IMHO doesn't mean, that robots couldn't be subject of some nifty
adventure-plots, as 'a whole starport run by robots and machines', 'a fled
pseudo-human android-prototype hiding amongst the PCs passengers', and so on... -
just don't have problems with plots like that on one hand, and not mentioning
robots for the rest of the campaign.

Bye, Sebastian

P.S. Larsen, apologies for mutilating your statement like this...

-- 
'random functions - aren't...

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 20:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri May 17 19:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205171755010.29862-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEHPHEAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

On Sat, 18 May 2002, Alan Bradley wrote:

> > From: timothyreynolds@earthlink.net
> > Besides the fact that Traveller is meant to be about "human" and 
> > the technology is written about during the 70's I think it has to do 
> > with the canon about Androids.  If you think Androids are wrong 
> > you would also be against robots to a certain degree. 
> 
> People will try to have sex with androids, but rarely with toasters.  
> 
People will try to have sex with just about anything.

Emergency room records will prove this.

Kiri
>>>>>

everyone know that is toasters are bread

jml




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 20:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ted Lindsey)
Date: Fri May 17 19:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] jumping jehosaphat
Message-ID: <823E42A1A121C04687C78532E353095B014725@atlantis.tedlindsey.com>

Your document sounds intriguing since I've always been a fan of
Traveller military campaigns. If you're interested, I have a bit of
experience with layout and graphic design (in case your wife is too
busy). You can view a sample layout I mocked up recently at
http://www.tedlindsey.com/traveller/d20_traveller_wish_list.pdf. There's
also a bit of Traveller related artwork and such here
http://www.tedlindsey.com/3d/

- Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com]=20
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 10:44 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] jumping jehosaphat


Uhl asks:
>Are you editing, or laying out?

Both.  The editing is also broken into two pieces - content,=20
and spelling-grammar-punctuation.  My wife is helping me=20
out.  She says that I should be using PageMaker, especially=20
if I plan on having it printed.

I think I'll just try to get it clean enough in Word, and=20
then have *her* do it in PageMaker.

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 20:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May 17 19:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hmm.  New series - old, old idea
In-Reply-To: <E178pJX-0004BJ-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B90B0EF2.5BF73%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/17/02 2:29 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Yep, and Joss Whedon, the utter genius who was behind "Buffy
> the Vampire Slayer" until this season is in charge of it.  I'm very
> much hoping that it will be as good as B-5 and not another
> examples of the cheesiness that is "Andromeda" or the unending
> suckiness that is "Enterprise".
> 
> For now, "Farscape" is (by far) the best SF on TV, but with luck
> "Firefly" may be as good or even better.
> 
> -John Snead sneajd@mindspring.com

A man with my own sensibilities.  Well, with Whedon behind it, I suppose we
can expect lots of character angst.  And hopefully there will be a
continuing and interwoven story, one of the things that made Buffy, B-5 and
Farscape so much fun to watch.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 20:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Fri May 17 19:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval Command Question
In-Reply-To: <m3znyyadsr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3D17E7FE@webmail.kent.edu> <m1j8eu8s9f0lrr6bi8quuj0d3o0ud5giti@4ax.com> <m3znyyadsr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <bafbeucdtd30i44tpoenqnt24fcebanqj4@4ax.com>

On 17 May 2002 11:23:48 -0600, ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl
<ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

>JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com> writes:
>>
>> The Federation appears to feel that all its officers may (after
>> qualifying on some prep courses) actually command full ships.  They
>> may not need to do so as part of their regular duties, but they
>> should be qualified to do so.
>
>This does not make sense.  Commanding a ship is a full-time career,
>not a skill one can maintain in one's free time.  It's better, I
>think, for a lower-ranking officer in the command hierarchy to take
>over than for a doctor or psychologist.

I'm certain that you've already noted my disclaimer in the preceding
portions of the quoted paragraph.  Would you have a similar problem
with a chief engineer (a much more traditional route to command than
the medical branch) sitting in the command chair?

Actually, I tend to agree with you, but not to the exclusion of other
possibilities.  As I had stated, there were prep courses necessary for
Next Gen's non-Line officers to pass before actually being given a
command (and it was actually something more like an OOD duty) and this
was not something commonly done by non-Line officers, but was a
definite source of pride for them.  Yes, they might actually only be
given command responsibility suitable for someone several steps lower
in rank, but they were given that responsibility.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 21:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May 17 20:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
Message-ID: <200205180325.GMO00266@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

jimv says
>More seriously, however, the prospects for AI do generate a 
>bit of a quagmire for science fiction writers and RPGers. 

The problem that most SF writers have with AI is that they 
haven't read Rodney Brooks.  There is an extremely 
enlightening paper by him, entitled "Elephants Don't Play 
Chess".  The earlier response that said that robots would 
be "toasters" is more along these lines. 

A robot that can identify human targets, and kill them 
efficiently, is not going to discuss phenomenology, or play 
chess.  That said, an AI at that crude a level is not too far 
out of bounds for us (Brooks has already built some, and they 
are scarcely more costly than a car).  They also have NO 
central brain - they are a compilation of asynchronous finite 
state machines, with each machine being VERY simple.

As for the holy grail of HAL, and having him play chess with 
us while running a ship, having a personality, and discussing 
birthdays - that's probably crap, and will never really 
happen.  But for autonomous killer vehicles, fighter 
aircraft, and ships - that's going to happen very soon.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 21:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Fri May 17 20:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jumping jehosaphat
In-Reply-To: <823E42A1A121C04687C78532E353095B014725@atlantis.tedlindsey.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1fe1c$f0b7eed0$0300a8c0@acheronlv426>

Awesome illustrations, Ted. 

Very latter-day Syd Mead -Like. You used LinearT, I take it?

Keep it up, and your cover is top notch. Yes, I miss the "Alien Barcode"
as well.

	Matt Helton 





-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Ted Lindsey
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 9:37 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] jumping jehosaphat

Your document sounds intriguing since I've always been a fan of
Traveller military campaigns. If you're interested, I have a bit of
experience with layout and graphic design (in case your wife is too
busy). You can view a sample layout I mocked up recently at
http://www.tedlindsey.com/traveller/d20_traveller_wish_list.pdf. There's
also a bit of Traveller related artwork and such here
http://www.tedlindsey.com/3d/

- Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: John T. Kwon [mailto:jtkwon@jtkgroup.com] 
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 10:44 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] jumping jehosaphat


Uhl asks:
>Are you editing, or laying out?

Both.  The editing is also broken into two pieces - content, 
and spelling-grammar-punctuation.  My wife is helping me 
out.  She says that I should be using PageMaker, especially 
if I plan on having it printed.

I think I'll just try to get it clean enough in Word, and 
then have *her* do it in PageMaker.

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 22:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri May 17 21:09:03 2002
Subject: Tilden, BEAM and so forth was  [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <200205180325.GMO00266@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEIFHEAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I'm a hobbyist in BEAM robotics. It is impressive what some 
of the bots can do with minimal brains.  I've seen automus 
robo'sumo bots, that can stay within a circle, hunt down 
and push out of the circle another robot.  Others I've 
seen, can get themselves out of holes.  Another guy built 
a robot - solar powered, that could dodoge his cats when 
they attempted to pounce on it.  These things use op amps 
and hex buffers for there most complex IC and darn few of 
them.  With a well stocked junk box the robosumo bot or 
the cat avoiding bot cost on the order of 50 bucks.

Tilden built robots he could twist the legs around  and they
would keep on stumbling along.  I know of one design at least 
that is still ambulatory after five years.  Tilden was building 
mine clearing robots and was testing them in the Mojave desert 
-- ran into alkali dust vs. motor troubles, and they were 
nowhere near sexy enough.

engineers tend to over design and design elegant and bulletproof.
especially if its a cool problem.  killing folks and things 
is a cool problem.

jml


jimv says
>More seriously, however, the prospects for AI do generate a 
>bit of a quagmire for science fiction writers and RPGers. 

The problem that most SF writers have with AI is that they 
haven't read Rodney Brooks.  There is an extremely 
enlightening paper by him, entitled "Elephants Don't Play 
Chess".  The earlier response that said that robots would 
be "toasters" is more along these lines. 

A robot that can identify human targets, and kill them 
efficiently, is not going to discuss phenomenology, or play 
chess.  That said, an AI at that crude a level is not too far 
out of bounds for us (Brooks has already built some, and they 
are scarcely more costly than a car).  They also have NO 
central brain - they are a compilation of asynchronous finite 
state machines, with each machine being VERY simple.

As for the holy grail of HAL, and having him play chess with 
us while running a ship, having a personality, and discussing 
birthdays - that's probably crap, and will never really 
happen.  But for autonomous killer vehicles, fighter 
aircraft, and ships - that's going to happen very soon.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 22:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri May 17 21:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why not more Robots?
Message-ID: <F104wDdKiXXc4QzPW8A00001622@hotmail.com>

From: S.Feige <s-feige@gmx.de>

     "P.S. Larsen, apologies for mutilating your statement like this..."


Mr. Feige,

     No need for apologies, sir.  Your thoughts on the subject were well 
presented and well thought out, unlike my "robots as toasters" flippancy.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 22:24:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri May 17 21:24:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
Message-ID: <F208IyFrydlb9rXg5wl000002a2@hotmail.com>

From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

     "Just wanted to say that Herr Whipsnade's analysis is brilliant and
quite correct IMHO.  Well done!"


Mr. Uhl,

     Thank you, sir.  I'm afraid my take on the subject was rather flippant, 
but my heart was in the right place.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 22:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri May 17 21:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
Message-ID: <F2296NZBQFS2g2Fehoo00019670@hotmail.com>

From: sneadj@mindspring.com

     "Excellent stuff, I completely agree!"


Mr. Snead,

      Thank you, sir, you are too kind.

     "I do think we need some rules for this though.  At any TL of A or
higher, I'd say that all vehicles should have a innate skill level
(representing the autopilot)."

     That points to the crux of my argument, would high-TL vehicles with 
built-in skills be viewed as "robots"?  Or would they just be the latest in 
1117 grav transportation?
     We in the 21st century would think of them as robots, because they 
"think" and perform certain tasks.  The inhabitants of the 57th century 
would simply think of them as grav cars, the skill level built into them is 
comparable to our automobile accessories, like airbags or an AM-FM CD 
player.
     The chip in my coffee maker has more processing power than most 1960's 
mainframes, yet I don't think of it as a computer.
     Look at a 57th century flat.  It cleans and tidys itself.  It sends out 
for groceries and supplies.  It collects it's inhabitants dirty clothes, 
launders them, and puts them away.  It performs all sorts of tasks that we 
cannot even imagine.  Does a denizen of the 57th century live in an 
apartment or does she live inside a robot?
     There's a thread current on the TML named "Mundane Objects".  That is 
exactly how robots will be viewed in the 57th century; they are mundane 
objects performing mundane tasks.  People don't notice them.  Robots are 
toasters.
     A robot acting as a butler or valet will attract notice.  A robot built 
and programmed to handle the myriad of tasks those jobs require in a 
semi-independent manner will be both rare and expensive.  A robot acting as 
an somewhat independent part of a IISS expedition would be the same.  The 
Scouts will have all sorts of devices with them that we 21st Centurians 
would call "robots", but the Scouts will simply think of them as tools.
     In the 57th century, most "robots" will be cheap and will be used in 
very narrow applications.  Both of those attributes will mean that they are 
everywhere.  Limiting, or "focusing", the jobs they can do will keep them 
cheap and easy to use.  That last bit is extremely important.  The more a 
system does, the more it must be supervised.  No one wants to own a valet 
'bot that requires near constant instruction.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 22:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri May 17 21:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
Message-ID: <3CE5DEC4.C5F83622@mail.cswnet.com>

>>>People will try to have sex with androids, but rarely with toasters. 

>>People will try to have sex with just about anything.
>>Emergency room records will prove this.

***>everyone know that is toasters are bread***

???

"All your toasters are belong to us"

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 23:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri May 17 22:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
Message-ID: <F931XvpFVjCRGryWtII00000b9e@hotmail.com>

From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

     "The problem that most SF writers have with AI is that they haven't 
read Rodney Brooks.  There is an extremely enlightening paper by him, 
entitled "Elephants Don't Play Chess".  The earlier response that said that 
robots would be "toasters" is more along these lines."


Mr. Kwon,

     Exactly.  It's our old anthrocentrism at play again.  Robots must 
"kinda" look and "kinda" behave like us.  If they don't, they're not robots. 
  Yes, elephants don't play chess and helicopters don't look like birds, yet 
they fly.

     "A robot that can identify human targets, and kill them efficiently, is 
not going to discuss phenomenology, or play chess."

     Spot on.  If it doesn't "play chess" is it a robot or just another 
weapon?  I can build a mine that only detonates when it senses human odors, 
is that a robot too?

     "As for the holy grail of HAL, and having him play chess with us while 
running a ship, having a personality, and discussing birthdays - that's 
probably crap, and will never really happen."

     It will do all those things and simply pretend to have a personality.  
That will be enough, but the people who "use" it will not think of it as a 
robot.  It will just be the accessories that are part of that specific 
vehicle.  Like the machines Mr. Brooks has constructed, it will be an 
accretion of very many, very simple parts, each performing one simple task.

     "But for autonomous killer vehicles, fighter aircraft, and ships - 
that's going to happen very soon."

     We've got them already, cruise missiles, torpedoes, mines, etc.  It's 
just that they are "one-shot" robots, use 'em and lose 'em.  The change will 
be when we decide to build multi-mission versions of the same devices.  
We're using armed drones in Afghanistan right now.  There're whispers that 
the Hellfire missiles they deploy needn't be fired by some operator hundreds 
of miles away in front of a CRT.  The drone can supposedly launch the 
Hellfire on it's own, in accordance with certain preprogrammed directives.  
Is it a drone or is it a warbot?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 23:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri May 17 22:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
References: <20020518025108.50FFA279D8@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002301c1fe2c$7e62b9e0$1a5d8690@computer>

> From: jimv
> it's politically not a good idea (because most any true AI would yearn for
> its freedom and untimately wage war with it's creator).

The decisive point against "true AI", in my opinion, is that it simply isn't
necessary.  An AI ship doesn't need to be a "true AI", it just needs to be a
ship.  Even an android doesn't need to be a fully-functional "human being",
just good at what it is designed to do.  In other words, they are toasters,
who don't even need to know what freedom is, let alone be capable of
yearning for it.

Of course the real reason why such AIs are rare in Traveller is that they
make PCs unnecessary.  If a ship is better at combat than its human crew,
the humans have nothing to do.

Of course, it is entirely possible to set up a non-OTU game where ships are
controlled by AIs.  The result could be something akin to Aliens, where the
ship is an AI, and the PCs are basically passengers until it's time to go
down to the surface of a planet and get eaten by monsters.  This game could
be perfectly good fun, and I've actually considered it many times.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com








From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 17 23:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 17 22:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why not more Robots?
Message-ID: <28.26c02244.2a174486@aol.com>

John Snead writes:

>What's wrong with Book 8 CT Robots?  The prices need to be 
>dropped (and also needs to include a drop in price with increasing 
>TL) but that aside, the system is easy, sensible and fun.  What 
>more can you ask for?

Simple? I had mastered Striker design when Book 8 came out, and Book 8 was 
absolutely bamboozling. Erratic and unexplained usage of either volume *OR* 
weight for design constraints, depending on which section you were reading.  
Despite an obvious (and admitted) descendence from Striker, many factors are 
just left incomplete, unexplained, or both.

Looking at the credits and what came after, Book 8 was obviously the warm up 
for MegaErrata, and boy does it show. The design system commits most of the 
same sins that MT's did, including the cardinal sin of "writing to the 
expert" instead of the beginner. Joe Fugate later admitted this in regards to 
MT, but I don't recall if he ever considered it a mistake...

As design systems go, Book 8 ranks down in the basement with early editions 
of Book 2 and the printed version of T4's FF&S2 (as opposed to what the 
authors wrote...).

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 03:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat May 18 02:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <3CE5DEC4.C5F83622@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEIKHEAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Auurgh!!!!!!!!

everyone knows that is HOW toasters are bread

jml
alas that went a rye 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>People will try to have sex with androids, but rarely with toasters. 

>>People will try to have sex with just about anything.
>>Emergency room records will prove this.

***>everyone know that is toasters are bread***

???

"All your toasters are belong to us"

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 04:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat May 18 03:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fashions
In-Reply-To: <3CE4311B.9257.BBF851@localhost>
References: <000401c1fceb$f36214d0$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <3CE6DA69.32082.2605ADC@localhost>

On 16 May 2002, at 22:22, timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:

> Ok I guess fashion is something no one cares about and so I ll cut it
> lose and go out on my own.  

http://www.downport.com/amv/Library/Skirt.htm

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 05:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat May 18 04:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEHPHEAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <003701c200b8$65f0af50$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of John-Martin
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 17:47
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Why not more robots?

On Sat, 18 May 2002, Alan Bradley wrote:

> > From: timothyreynolds@earthlink.net
> > Besides the fact that Traveller is meant to be about "human" and 
> > the technology is written about during the 70's I think it has to do

> > with the canon about Androids.  If you think Androids are wrong 
> > you would also be against robots to a certain degree. 
> 
> People will try to have sex with androids, but rarely with toasters.  
> 
People will try to have sex with just about anything.

Emergency room records will prove this.

Kiri
>>>>>

Indeed, friend of mine's mother was a nurse at an emergency ward...Spoke
of a man who came in one night real late.  He was wearing a heavy coat
and when he took it off, the nurse was horrified to find he had a small
dog attached to his "nether" appendage.  The act of such attachment is
what brought about said dogs' demise.  A further affront, the poor
animal had rigor set in with the man unable to remove the dog, hence the
panic'd hospital visit.

I cannot verify this story, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it
were true.  This world is full of people, some of which are
exceptionally strange.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat May 18 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ER Freaks (was: Why not more robots?)
Message-ID: <F206h08xWI0AT2JveR6000005f8@hotmail.com>

From: "J-Man" <j-man@attbi.com>

     "Indeed, friend of mine's mother was a nurse at an emergency ward..."


Sir,

     My cousin, Millicent, is an emergency room RN in Dallas, Texas.  
Several years ago, she took care of a young gentleman who had suffered an 
unintended consequence from bizarre sexual play.
     It seems this fellow and his partner enjoyed enema play, trying out 
various substances for their texture and temperature.  They eventually 
worked their way down a list of possibilities until they hit upon PLASTER OF 
PARIS.  Enough of the material "set up" inside this genius to cause major 
problems.  The lower end of his alimentary canal was for all intents and 
purposes destroyed and the young idiot, in his early 20's IIRC, had to be 
fitted with a colostomy bag.
     Millicent also has the usual run of ER stories involving shot glasses, 
light bulbs, and vacumn cleaners.

ObTrav - Given our primate nature to get frisky with anything that may or 
may not sit still long enough and our gift as superb tinkerers, as we 
develop more and more gizmos, totchkes, and knick-knacks, the amount of 
strange and bizarre emergency room visits will only increase.  ER staffs in 
the 57th century may find themsleves removing zucchai crystals or Droyne 
coyns from various orifices.

     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 07:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jim Catchpole)
Date: Sat May 18 06:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
References: <200205180325.GMO00266@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c1fe72$c755cb60$51040150@jimcatchpole>

Then again, it may already have happened ........

Five years ago, this was released :-

    The British Ministry of Defense (MOD) asked CyberLife to
adapt their Creatures game to a real application: piloting
unmanned aircraft.  The approach is genetic search through
a space of complex neural networks and "hormone" levels
designed to simulate human behavior and learning.  The norns
have been training/evolving in Eurofighter simulations,
and can now "sustain flight formations, evade attackers,
shoot down enemy aircraft, and complete reconnaissance missions."
In about six months they'll be given genuine miniature planes
to fly.  [Anil Malhorta.  Newsweek, 18May98, p. 10.]

For a longer article :-

www.newscientist.com/hottopics/ai/albia.jsp

Since then, I haven't heard anything more, so either it flopped, or it
worked and they've hushed it up.

Or *maybe* .......... (cue Terminator theme)  ;-)

----- Original Message -----
From: John T. Kwon <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 18 May 2002 04:25
Subject: Re: [TML] Why not more robots?


> jimv says
> >More seriously, however, the prospects for AI do generate a
> >bit of a quagmire for science fiction writers and RPGers.
>
> The problem that most SF writers have with AI is that they
> haven't read Rodney Brooks.  There is an extremely
> enlightening paper by him, entitled "Elephants Don't Play
> Chess".  The earlier response that said that robots would
> be "toasters" is more along these lines.
>
> A robot that can identify human targets, and kill them
> efficiently, is not going to discuss phenomenology, or play
> chess.  That said, an AI at that crude a level is not too far
> out of bounds for us (Brooks has already built some, and they
> are scarcely more costly than a car).  They also have NO
> central brain - they are a compilation of asynchronous finite
> state machines, with each machine being VERY simple.
>
> As for the holy grail of HAL, and having him play chess with
> us while running a ship, having a personality, and discussing
> birthdays - that's probably crap, and will never really
> happen.  But for autonomous killer vehicles, fighter
> aircraft, and ships - that's going to happen very soon.
> ________________
> ICQ 34855601
> MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
> AIM VASmalltalk
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 08:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat May 18 07:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jumping jehosaphat
References: <823E42A1A121C04687C78532E353095B014725@atlantis.tedlindsey.com>
Message-ID: <3CE66D0D.2030605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Ted Lindsey wrote:
> There's
> also a bit of Traveller related artwork and such here
> http://www.tedlindsey.com/3d/

Slick! That's a nice take on the ol Scout/Courier. I like the lines more 
than the standard super pointy version...

If you do a little more exaggerated bump mapping, you can get more 
definition on your line art technique.

It looks like a 'find edges' thing in Photoshop, no?

Similar to: http://www.stratacafe.com/image.asp?imageID=1539&artistimages=1

(yes, *that* John Byrne...if some of the older gallery images are up, he 
showed how to use black and white texturing to get a very 'ink-drawn' 
look from his renders...he did a bunch of different Batmobiles that way.)

He's got some really cool stuff up lately, more suited to 'Space 1899' 
than Traveller, but really inspirational.

-- 

Bruce Johnson
Wherever you go, there you are.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 09:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat May 18 08:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ER Freaks (was: Why not more robots?)
In-Reply-To: <F206h08xWI0AT2JveR6000005f8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020518081727.009ec4d0@mindspring.com>

At 01:30 PM 5/18/02 +0000, you wrote:
>ObTrav - Given our primate nature to get frisky with anything that may or 
>may not sit still long enough and our gift as superb tinkerers, as we 
>develop more and more gizmos, totchkes, and knick-knacks, the amount of 
>strange and bizarre emergency room visits will only increase.  ER staffs 
>in the 57th century may find themsleves removing zucchai crystals or 
>Droyne coyns from various orifices.

As a frequent user of ERs..  (you know you're sick when they wheel you in 
and it sounds like and episode of _Cheers_ "Doug!") I'd love to see a well 
run game set in a busy Starport's immediate care and quarantine area. 
People from hundreds of worlds and dozens or races, vehicle incidents, the 
unthinkable accidents that someone should have thought of...

It would take an awesome and knowledgeable GM and players to pull off, but 
it would be great.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry           gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"That's just 'mostly dead.'  What we are concerned
with here is 'Pining for the Fjords' dead."
                                     - Mark Urbin


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 09:28:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat May 18 08:28:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <200205180325.GMO00266@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020518082242.009fc0f0@mindspring.com>

At 11:25 PM 5/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>A robot that can identify human targets, and kill them
>efficiently, is not going to discuss phenomenology, or play
>chess.

There is a bit of stage chatter on this subject on the Moxy Fruvous album 
"Live Noise"

http://www.fruvous.com/ln-lyr.html#kasparov

An incredible album from an incredible band.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 13:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sat May 18 12:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] ER Freaks (was: Why not more robots?)
In-Reply-To: <20020518190108.48D93279F4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020518124117.009fce50@mailhost.efn.org>

On Sat, 18 May 2002 08:21:27 -0700, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 
wrote:

>As a frequent user of ERs..  (you know you're sick when they wheel you in
>and it sounds like and episode of _Cheers_ "Doug!") I'd love to see a well
>run game set in a busy Starport's immediate care and quarantine area.
>People from hundreds of worlds and dozens or races, vehicle incidents, the
>unthinkable accidents that someone should have thought of...
>
>It would take an awesome and knowledgeable GM and players to pull off, but
>it would be great.

Sector General crossed with ER, eh?  I agree, there's a lot of potential 
there...

Our medicos in the old TML PBeM had a lot of fun, from what I could tell.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 14:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Mars)
Date: Sat May 18 13:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #538 - 19 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020518190106.5F1DD279EF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020518204714.71297.qmail@web9807.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry wrote:
>Message: 18
>Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 08:21:27 -0700
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] ER Freaks (was: Why not more
>robots?)
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>As a frequent user of ERs..  (you know you're sick
>when they wheel you 
>in 
>and it sounds like and episode of _Cheers_ "Doug!")
>I'd love to see a 
>well 
>run game set in a busy Starport's immediate care and
>quarantine area. 
>People from hundreds of worlds and dozens or races,
>vehicle incidents, 
>the 
>unthinkable accidents that someone should have
>thought of...

>It would take an awesome and knowledgeable GM and
>players to pull off, 
>but 
>it would be great.

>Douglas E. Berry           gridlore@mindspring.com

I just finished reading what I could find of the
Sector General series by Jame White at my local
library.  He did a good job with exactly the kind of
story you propose.
- Joseph

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May 18 14:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: AI
Message-ID: <16c.dd0c316.2a1820dd@aol.com>

>Is it a drone or is it a warbot?

Or fratricide waiting to happen? 

My two cents is that the first "android" will be built as a sex toy (and work 
is progressing along those lines). 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 15:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May 18 14:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Robots
Message-ID: <1ad.27003ab.2a18219b@aol.com>

>Of course the real reason why such AIs are rare in Traveller is that they
>make PCs unnecessary.  If a ship is better at combat than its human crew,
>the humans have nothing to do.

(virtual Loren touches his virtual nose with his virtual finger, indicatating 
that the remark is "on the nose" -- LKW)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May 18 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <20020518190106.5F1DD279EF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E179Bp0-00030C-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: sneadj@mindspring.com

>  "I do think we need some rules for this though.  At any TL of A or
> higher, I'd say that all vehicles should have a innate skill level
> (representing the autopilot)."
> 
> That points to the crux of my argument, would high-TL vehicles with 
> built-in skills be viewed as "robots"?  Or would they just be the
> latest in 1117 grav transportation?
> We in the 21st century would think of them as robots, because they 
> "think" and perform certain tasks.  The inhabitants of the 57th
> century would simply think of them as grav cars, the skill level built
> into them is comparable to our automobile accessories, like airbags or
> an AM-FM CD player.

True, there would be no obvious robot in such a vehicle, but it 
makes sense to me that a TL 15 air raft would be easier to drive 
than a TL 10 one and that a TL 10 ground car would be easier to 
drive than a TL 6 one.  Personally, I'd call this automation rather 
than robotics, but as you make clear, the differences between 
these statement are merely ones of terminology.

I would expect there to be only a few actual robots around.  
Warbots are canonical, I would guess that automated forklifts and 
such for cargo handling would also be used.  However, human and 
animal shaped robots would IMHO be limited to: 

1) Robot pets (far better than the Sony Aibo we have today and 
perfect for members of starship crews and people posted on 
remote assignment or  living in space stations.

2) Sophont-shaped robot butlers for the most extremely 
technophilic and eccentric members of the ultra rich.

3) Robot prostitutes for eccentric and wealthy clients.  However, 
even these might not exist, since I would expect high quality 
Virtual Reality and full-body VR suits would serve many clients 
looking for a truly impersonal "connection".

Speaking of VR, this has been ignored in all Traveller material that 
I've seen and it makes sense to me that it would be fairly 
ubiquitous in almost every TL A+ world.  However, since it would 
mostly be used for teaching, entertainment, and the occasional 
conference call, I can easily see it being a cool, but non-central 
background detail (much like 90+% of all "robots").

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 15:36:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May 18 14:36:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Unusual Inclusions
Message-ID: <8a.18b0e576.2a1822f6@aol.com>

>Millicent also has the usual run of ER stories involving shot glasses, 
>light bulbs, and vacumn cleaners.

Cecil Adams gives several lists of objects removed from assorted orifices 
(interested parties should search the archives at 
http://www.straightdope.com) in response to questions from people who are 
probably wearing their underwear too tight.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat May 18 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <20020518190106.5F1DD279EF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E179D4P-0003O8-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:

> Of course the real reason why such AIs are rare in Traveller is that
> they make PCs unnecessary.  If a ship is better at combat than its
> human crew, the humans have nothing to do.
> 
> Of course, it is entirely possible to set up a non-OTU game where
> ships are controlled by AIs.  The result could be something akin to
> Aliens, where the ship is an AI, and the PCs are basically passengers
> until it's time to go down to the surface of a planet and get eaten by
> monsters.  This game could be perfectly good fun, and I've actually
> considered it many times.

This reminds me a great deal of the show "Farscape", with an AI 
controlled robotic ship instead of a living ship with a symbiont pilot. 
I'm guessing such a game could be great fun.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat May 18 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <200205180325.GMO00266@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEAMHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> jimv says
> >More seriously, however, the prospects for AI do generate a
> >bit of a quagmire for science fiction writers and RPGers.
>
> The problem that most SF writers have with AI is that they
> haven't read Rodney Brooks.  There is an extremely
> enlightening paper by him, entitled "Elephants Don't Play
> Chess".

Unfortunatley for Mr. Brooks, elephants _do_ play chess.
They just don't play it very well.

> The earlier response that said that robots would
> be "toasters" is more along these lines.

The problem is actually because people conflate "robots" and AI.
Brooks is right about robots in general, but AI has _nothing_ to
do with robot technology.

AI is software. While an AI might be able to be installed into
a robot, there is no real point except for long term, autonomous
operation along way from any real civilization where the system
needs human-level inventiveness.

In most other situations, the robot does it's job autonomously
without an AI and can then be controlled remotely by an AI
should it be neccessary.

No AI would, in normal circumstances, be silly enough to risk
itself by inhabiting just a single piece of equipment.

> A robot that can identify human targets, and kill them
> efficiently, is not going to discuss phenomenology, or play
> chess.

You realize that having said that, you _will_ be proven wrong one
day?

What you should have said is that a robot that can identify human
targets, and kill them
efficiently probably does not _need_ to discuss phenomenology, or
play chess.

It's almost certain, however, that someone will build one that
_can_, just to be stylish.

The Chess Assasin speaks :
"You will play chess. If you succeed in beating me, I will let
you live."

> That said, an AI at that crude a level is not too far
> out of bounds for us (Brooks has already built some, and they
> are scarcely more costly than a car).  They also have NO
> central brain - they are a compilation of asynchronous finite
> state machines, with each machine being VERY simple.
>
> As for the holy grail of HAL, and having him play chess with
> us while running a ship, having a personality, and discussing
> birthdays - that's probably crap, and will never really
> happen.

Actually, the concept is a lot more likely than you think.

The difference is that such a "HAL" would not be _directly_
running the entire ship, a lot of little intelligences will deal
with various parts of the functioning of the ship.

The AI would act as another human, and merely monitor the
subsystems, and know how to deal with emergencies and situations
that each individual component machine cannot handle by itself
because they don't have access to the big picture. Like a human
pilot, it would act as a "systems integrator".

The bit that communicates, and plays chess, with humans might be
just another peripheral device as far as the core AI is
concerned, probably less important to it than the peripheral that
monitors drive status.

After all humans don't need the power of an AI to be kept happy,
just a sophisticated Eliza. Add a speech based command line
procesor that translate those inefficient human audio
commmunication sounds into real input, and it would look and feel
like HAL to the astronaut using it, even if it wasn't implemented
how all the users thought.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 19:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Sat May 18 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why not more robots?
Message-ID: <F253h4TYFDCjoDUS84z000039be@hotmail.com>

   People have been providing some interesting ideas on the apparent lack of 
robots in most Traveller stuff; ranging from a deliberate
"focus" of Traveller on the meat over the tech,to attributing it to a 
general lack of robot-building rules.
   As far as the much-dreaded Canon [hiss!boo!]goes,there are several 
different types of robot to be had in the 3I
   Adventure 2,"Research Station Gamma",has a trio of exceedingly dumb 
robots (with illustrations provided):
   The 100kg,1.2m high Animal Care robot has a 2-armed torso atop a pedistal 
which houses its movement gear(apparently wheels?). Its head is shaped like 
a room-service dish-cover.
   The 100kg, 1m high Janitor robot is a barrel-bodied tracked robot, with 
several arms and attached cleaning tools.It has a head reminiscent of that 
red droid with a bad motivator from StarWars.
   The 200kg, 2m high Maximum Security robot is a 2-armed bullet-like 
cylinder ending in the same pedistal as the Animal Carebot.
   A "Trade and Commerce" article in The Best of JTAS1 has an free-standing 
illustration of a forklift with a large rectangular robot laying where the 
operator's seat would be at our pathetically low tech TL. It has a long 
tubular protrusion, which I take to be its neck, with a little camera-like 
bit of gear at the top, which I take to be its head.
   The "Robots" article in The Best of JTAS1 has an illustration of a of a 
pair of people looking at the robots available in what I take to be a 
showroom. From L to R:
   A small,2-wheeled cylinder with a little square head and a pair of 
arms.An opening in its upper area, right below its head (where the opening 
would be on a trashcan)has room for a pitcher and at least 3 cups.
   A roughly human-sized,segmented,bullet-shaped robot with 2 small arms and 
2 larger lower arms.It haswhat looks like a metal skirt protecting its 
wheels.It has a hatch in its "chest", and also one in its "abdomen".
   A roughly human-sized,2 armed humanoid. Its arms and legs look to be of 
adjustable lengths.
   A roughly human-sized, 6 armed, 2 legged, upright walking robot. It seems 
to have the same adjustable-length arms and legs as the previous robot.
   The last robot looks to be an upright, egg-shaped robot version of the 
first robot.
   There's also AB-101, the psuedo-bio human-looking robot seen frequently 
in the Traveller Digest.
   Then there's the Bruiser and Baby Bruiser robots. Big, armored, grav 
warbots of Zho(?) manufacture from Traveller's Digest 6, IIRC.
   So, according to OTU sources, there _are_ robots to be had :)

  -Ken Murphy-

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 19:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Sat May 18 18:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <F253h4TYFDCjoDUS84z000039be@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000901c1fed5$54105450$2f7de40c@loki>

Thank you, Ken, for your journey through some of the Robots of the
Traveller Universe.

On the other end of the scale from those you cite, both in capability
and in timeline, is the TNE NPC sentient android. (I haven't the
materials here for direct reference.) It was sentient by virtue of it
elevation to sentience via virus infection.

-peace-
The views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you
expect?
<n2sami@attbi.com>
<http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 20:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat May 18 19:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: AI
In-Reply-To: <16c.dd0c316.2a1820dd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHKECICIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>


> 
> >Is it a drone or is it a warbot?
> 
> Or fratricide waiting to happen? 
> 
> My two cents is that the first "android" will be built as a sex 
> toy (and work 
> is progressing along those lines). 
> 
> LKW

As soon as somone makes an ASIC for walking and talking,
sex dolls will flood the market.
The appearance has already been completed.
http://www.realdoll.com/

-SRS-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 20:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Sat May 18 19:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <E179D4P-0003O8-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEBDHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote :
> This reminds me a great deal of the show "Farscape",
> with an AI controlled robotic ship instead of a living
> ship with a symbiont pilot. I'm guessing such a game
> could be great fun.

I think it could be too.

Mind you, I always wanted to write a one-off convention game
based around
Richard Meredith's "We All Died At Breakaway Station".

And I always liked Red Dwarf too.

To make RD more serious, add a touch of "Paranoia". The
characters server on AlphaShip and aren't bright enough to run
it, (AKA "The March of the Morons" ) like most humans they are
employed to do all things that it's cheaper to get humans to do,
like die in defense of the ship and clean the ship.

Every now and then they might meet an 'intelligent' human, an
"Engineer", the sort that designs the ships, but they've learned
to be wary of such occcurrences, because normally that only
happens when the "Engineer" wants them to live test something
that's too risky to to risk an expensive robot on.

Female morons might meet "Enginneers" more often, of course, but
wouldn't have much choice.

Of course the problem with such an idea is that while Red Dwarf
is fun as a comedy, even if the society it portrays is quite
scary if considered seriously, there are few roleplayers that
would enjoy such a game for very long, and most of us probably
dislike the idea of a subhuman servant "race".

Unfortunately, this sort of dystopia is something I would not be
surprised to see, especially with the possibilities of Enhanced
Humans, and the technological divide that is already occuring
between those who know how to design and build our technology,
those who only know how to use it, and those who don't have
access to it.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 21:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat May 18 20:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <002301c1fe2c$7e62b9e0$1a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEECJCIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>


Mother, in the movie Aliens, was just a glorified auto pilot to take
care of the crew while they were in cold sleep. That plus a few
custom directives from the Company. These directives are probably
the reasons that AI's and robots are despised throughout the Alien
series.

Imagine going on a LRRP mission with a robot. How do you know It?
Do you swap stories and pics of your girlfriend back home? No. So
how can you trust It? You don't. So the "Toaster" goes in the front of
the column, and the first time it acts funny, or bleep at you the wrong
way, you frag it! You just don't trust It. You don't trust the HQ that
defined its mission directives, and you certainly don't trust the
Micro$oft mega corporation that programmed its Windoze operating system!
So you just might frag it anyway out of spite. 

Imagine an AI attempting to determine friend or foe in Vietnam. Heck,
humans with years of experience had difficulty doing that some times.
(Is the white flag for real, or simply a ploy?)
Would you trust such decisions to some "Pencil necked geek" in a lab coat? 

AI's don't understand friendship, comradery, love, or hate.
It's emotions, determination, "guts", and cunning intelligence that make
humans the most fearsome foes on the planet. Humans are the only species
that can perform beyond their physical design and override instincts at
will.

AI's however, could be useful, in limited and clearly define rolls,
such as navigating a starship, guarding a bunker, or firing artillery.
(Human forward observer of course.)

-SRS-




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 21:06:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat May 18 20:06:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <F931XvpFVjCRGryWtII00000b9e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHKECJCIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

>      "The problem that most SF writers have with AI is that they haven't
> read Rodney Brooks.  There is an extremely enlightening paper by him,
> entitled "Elephants Don't Play Chess".  The earlier response that
> said that
> robots would be "toasters" is more along these lines."
>
>
> Mr. Kwon,
>
>      Exactly.  It's our old anthrocentrism at play again.  Robots must
> "kinda" look and "kinda" behave like us.  If they don't, they're
> not robots.
>   Yes, elephants don't play chess and helicopters don't look like
> birds, yet
> they fly.
>
>      "A robot that can identify human targets, and kill them
> efficiently, is
> not going to discuss phenomenology, or play chess."
>
>      Spot on.  If it doesn't "play chess" is it a robot or just another
> weapon?  I can build a mine that only detonates when it senses
> human odors,
> is that a robot too?
>
>      "As for the holy grail of HAL, and having him play chess
> with us while
> running a ship, having a personality, and discussing birthdays - that's
> probably crap, and will never really happen."
>
>      It will do all those things and simply pretend to have a
> personality.
> That will be enough, but the people who "use" it will not think
> of it as a
> robot.  It will just be the accessories that are part of that specific
> vehicle.  Like the machines Mr. Brooks has constructed, it will be an
> accretion of very many, very simple parts, each performing one
> simple task.
>
>      "But for autonomous killer vehicles, fighter aircraft, and ships -
> that's going to happen very soon."
>
>      We've got them already, cruise missiles, torpedoes, mines,
> etc.  It's
> just that they are "one-shot" robots, use 'em and lose 'em.  The
> change will
> be when we decide to build multi-mission versions of the same devices.
> We're using armed drones in Afghanistan right now.  There're
> whispers that
> the Hellfire missiles they deploy needn't be fired by some
> operator hundreds
> of miles away in front of a CRT.  The drone can supposedly launch the
> Hellfire on it's own, in accordance with certain preprogrammed
> directives.
> Is it a drone or is it a warbot?
>
>
Agreed.
You may be surprised to know, that by true definition, a mousetrap is a
robot.

-SRS-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 21:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat May 18 20:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arba 1106--Arba Down Starport, pt1.
Message-ID: <3CE719AD.B69A9115@mail.cswnet.com>

Arba Down Starport
Design System: Hybrid
Most items consistent with GT.
Items not from GT are noted.

Arba Down Starport
Type C/III port, size 4
On minor route; recieves 600dt, 30 passengers per week
Arba has no high port.
Typical traffic, weekly:  3 seekers, 2 scouts,
6 mini traders[100dt 1-G, J-2 freighters]
Peak traffic, as above, plus: 1 far trader
Once in a while: an annual visit from Imperiallines.

Annual budget:
System freight, Arba			Mcr2.886430
System freight, transient [to Isaak, Hagars Belt] Mcr.0484
System passenger, Arba			Mcr.745
System passenger, transient [as above]   	Mcr.004
Berthing fees				Mcr1.05
Port guide/Starport fees			Mcr.18
Total annual budget			Mcr4.914470

Construction budget:			Mcr45.004259


SPA Employees: 25
2 admin, 3 traffic, 6 ship services, 5 cargo services,
3 passenger services, 3 flight operations, 3 physical plant.

SPA Hours of Operation:
Landing and Liftoff available 24/7
Cargo loading/Unloading, Maintenance etc. available 
from Wonday thru Fiday, 0800 to 1700 hrs


Starport grounds
area .0242 square miles,  .062678 square kilometers,  15.488 acres, or
6.27 hectares.

XT wall 278,432.2837 square feet		Mcr.055686


Freestanding structures, apart from Main Terminal:
1 100dt hanger bay, sealed w/space dock door	Mcr2.655
Includes: 6 space shop cartsx4, 100dt scaffolding.
Capable of extensive freight handling
100 DR armor

11 small 100dt pads,  Mcr.25 ea, Mcr2.75 total

1 large 5000dt pad    	       Mcr2.87

250 space fuel tankage [5-50dt LHYD tanks above ground] Mcr27.5
[tankage external to hull and not counted]

subtotal for free standing structures and fence	Mcr35.830686

Main terminal
Slide walk connections with bays and pads        Mcr1.95
Hull  2000dt				Mcr3
100DR armor				Mcr3.6
Total Compartmentalization			Mcr.12
Sealed environment			Mcr.6
Excavation costs 				Mcr.2
subtotal Main terminal hull: Mcr9.47

Arba Downport SPA Control Section
2.5 space basic control room		Mcr4.0
5 space command control room		Mcr9.6
1 space partial traffic control room		Mcr3.165
Partial space control/sattelites		Mcr6.53
12 space office modules x3			Mcr.052
10 space conferance room 			Mcr.003
4 space 1-2 occupant brig			Mcr.052
subtotal spaces: 34.5 subtotal Control: Mcr23.402

Engineering, Storage and Warehouse
2 space engineering module			Mcr.64
2 space stores					Mcr.05
825 spaces hold [freight warehousing]
200 space spacedock [for 100dt worth of 	Mcr.005
vehicle space].
subtotal spaces: 1029 subtotal engineering: Mcr.695

Starport Housing Area

Infirmary
4 space office module			Mcr.018
1 space sick bay module			Mcr.16
.5 space low berths			Mcr.22

10 space community hall 		Mcr.003
800 space 25 2-person small appartments	Mcr2.4

Starport 'Concourse'
30 space hallways and waiting area		Mcr .009	
20 space chapelsx2  non-denominational	Mcr.006
10 space restaurant The Lone Star		Mcr.003 non-SPA
10 space restaurant Brubecks'		Mcr.003 non-SPA
8 space officesx2 Imperial military recruiting	Mcr.036 non-SPA
10 space SPA assembly hall		Mcr.003

Maglev Terminal
30 space hallways and waiting area		Mcr.009

subtotal spaces: 933.5 subtotal housing/concourse: Mcr2.87


subtotal, main terminal building, SPA Paid	Mcr36.395
subtotal, main terminal building, non SPA Paid  Mcr.042

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 21:24:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat May 18 20:24:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Arba 1106--intro
Message-ID: <3CE719A0.64752943@mail.cswnet.com>

Arba redone, with GT enhancements.
aka Arba 1106

I first did my Arba Landgrab without the benefit of GT Far Trader and
GT Starport. I don't think I did too badly with it, but I must say that
I've had alot of fun redoing some of it with the new GT products. I am
still a CT/MT player, but I like the GT stuff and use it as a
supplement. This update borrows from Traveller stuff all over the place,
but mainly GT Far Trader, GT Starports, Beltstrike, and others.

This has been worked on for a while. The colony logistics thread got it
accelerated. 

Some stuff remains to be accomplished. 

Arba  System Locations:
* Denotes locations gearheading with GT Starports

1  *Arba Down Starport
2  *Nimmi Shiss [town--Arba]
3  *Zhi-Ling space port [Arba]
4  *Site B space port [Arba]
5  *Hagar's Point/Town [Hagar's Belt]
6  University of Lanth research lab [Isaak]
7  Martinsport memorial [Arba]
8  10km Maglev line running from Arba Down to Nimmi Shiss [Arba]
9  assorted mines and prospecting operations [Arba]

I'm still searching for a maglev train design [not the maglev in ffs1]
Also, if anyone has any ideas on a modular mine, if such a thing is
possible.


Handwaving the new stuff in: Arba, 001-1106

For the sake of completness, I went back to the old landgrab I did and
looked at how they compared. First thing you'll notice is that Chaperons
Blanc has had a difficult business year. The trade station idea bit the
dust. However, Arba does need water [badly], so a ice mining
installation got put in its place.

Second thing you'll notice is that we had a very bad accident with the
original port shuttle. Here are the original stats:

Arba Down Starport Shuttle
Y-0403311-200000-10000-0  Mcr42.47  95tons
one battery            crew=2  TL 12
Fuel=2.85 Ep=2.85 Agility=1 
small craft couches=20 cargo=40
fuel bladder empty .4tons 
ships locker 1.75 tons

GT Far Trader folks will instantly see what happened. The fool pilot
kicked the shuttle into 3g, causing the fuel bladder to rupture. The
gunner was smoking at the time, and well... things went from bad to
worse when the debris from the shuttle started to rain down on the
starport. The debris took out the 1000dt hanger and caused a number of
casualties, including the entire port security contingent. Thats how the
investigation report read any way. There will always be rumors that
something else happened.

Better call the SPA and rebuild the starport...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 21:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat May 18 20:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arba 1106--Arba Down Starport, pt2.
Message-ID: <3CE719D0.CD34658F@mail.cswnet.com>

Starport Equipment, Total			Mcr2.457235
Equipment listed:
2xexoskeletons				Mcr.268
2xforklifts					Mcr.26
25xcontainer racks				Mcr.320625
1x100st grav truck				Mcr.21975
24xhandtrucks				Mcr.0012
6xbulk liquid pumps			Mcr.0036
6xdry bulk augers				Mcr.0102
80xmotorized conveyer belts			Mcr.04
25xvacc suits [CT]				Mcr.25
430xvacc suit patch kits[CT] [5 patches each]	Mcr.00086
50xcold light lanterns[MT-TL12]		Mcr.001
7xcargo robots [CT-Book8]			Mcr.52605

1xstarport traffic control robot [CT]		Mcr.21514
UNIVERSAL ROBOT PROFILE

Starport Traffic Control Bat
Designed by Dan Roseberry, produced by LSP.
Starport Traffic Control Bot 310L0-32-MM214-D643 Cr2l5,140 57kg
Fuel=0 Duration= 0.1 [batteries] TL=12
10/25 (mesh)
2 light arms

I basic sensor package, I voder
I power interface, I brain interface, I program interface

Navigator-2
Communications-2
Administration-I
Emotion Simulation

NOTES:
Non-mobile robot. Normally connected to external power source.
Robot built at the Andy Akins secret manufacturing complex, Bularia.

1xstarport port guide robot [CT]		Mcr.34081
UNIVERSAL ROBOT PROFILE

Port Guide Robot
Designed by Dan Roseberry, produced by LSP.
Port Guide Robot 454A2-F2-NP227-EA66(8) Cr340,810  195 kg
Fuel=6.I Duration=I TL=12
16/40 (mesh)
2 light arms

I basic sensor package, I voder
I power interface, I brain interface, I program interface
I radio (50km),1 ECM

Grav Vehicle-I
Communications-2
Language-3
Administration-2, Legal-2
Cargo Handling-I, Emotion Simulation

NOTES:
Handles port guide function, human-cyborg relations.
Robot built at the Andy Akins secret manufacturing complex, Bularia

Starport Craft:
3 GTL10 250dt Robotic Fuel Blimps 		Mcr7.5 total

Arba Port Shuttle
[HG2 design, built at AMV's secret yard/depot complex in Ficant]
QY-1401111-000000-00002-0 MCr 32.540 140dt
one battery		Crew=3 TL=9
Cargo=69.2 Passengers=3 Fuel=2.8 Tankage Fuel=21
EP=1.4 Agility=1 Fuel Treatment= Fuel Scoops only
Architects Fee: Mcr.0325 Cost in Quantity: Mcr 26.032

Starport shuttle requirements:
21dt fuel, 60dt freight, 3 passengers.

Satellites and beacons:
Terminal Beacons:
1 at Arba Downport
1 at Zhi-Ling Downport [a class E/1 facility controlled by
Ling Standard Products]. Non-SPA
1 at Site B [a class E/1 facility controlled by 
the Imperial Navy]. Non-SPA
2 at Arba's Trojan points [60degrees in front of and behind Arba]
1 at Hagar's Rock Downport, originally emplaced by Chaperons
Blanc, now controled by the Taylor binding multiple. Non-SPA
1 at the University of Lanths facility on Isaak. Non-SPA
subtotal: 7 Terminal Beacons at Mcr1.3 each, Mcr9.1 total.
1 GPS Satellite Constellation Mcr2.6
1-20 Marker beacon Constellation Mcr.13
9 Marker beacons set up for traffic control approaches to Arba Downport.
6 Marker beacons set up in Hagars belt for navigational fixing.
1 Marker beacon each at Ishma, Sarai, Ibrahim, Anapy, and Glioma.
subtotal non-SPA satellites/beacons: Mcr5.2
subtotal SPA satellites/beacons: Mcr6.53
subtotal all satellites/beacons: Mcr11.73 
Note: SPA satellites/beacons paid under Arba Main Terminal Control
account.

Secondary Spaceports in Arba system:
note: all secondary spaceports are non-SPA.

Arba
Site B Imperial Navy Facility [closed]
1 Square Mile Site
1.79msqf fence [control rating 4]		Mcr51.91
4x large landing pads	           Mcr2.87ea, Mcr11.48total
30,000dt excavated space			Mcr3
All paid for by Imperial Navy		total Mcr66.39

Arba
Zhi-Ling LSP Facility [closed]
.02 Square Mile Site
.2532msqf fence [control rating 0]		Mcr.5064
1 standard pad				Mcr.87
2xsmall pads		             Mcr.25ea, Mcr.5total
1000dt excavated space			Mcr.1
All paid for by LSP			total Mcr1.9764

Hagar's Belt
Hagar's Point Mining Station [formerly Hagar's Point Trade Station]
Originally owned by Chaperons Blanc, now controlled by
the Taylor binding multiple.
.02 Square Mile Site
.2532msqf fence [control rating 0]		Mcr.5064
1 standard pad				Mcr.87
2xsmall pads		             Mcr.25ea, Mcr.5total
1000dt excavated space			Mcr.1
4xAdvanced Bases [CT]			Mcr.2
Paid for by Chaperons Blanc and the Taylor binding multiple: 
Mcr2.1764

THE BIG TOTAL FOR EVERYTHING SPA:
Total for everything SPA only			Mcr114.755421
Total SPA construction budget			Mcr45.004259

Total Deficit:				---Mcr69.751162

Total for everything non-SPA			Mcr75.7848

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 21:29:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat May 18 20:29:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Arba 1106--Nimmi Shis
Message-ID: <3CE719F7.BDDDBFE6@mail.cswnet.com>

Welcome to Nimmi Shis
The only town in the Arba system...
Population 450

Note: Practically everything in here is GT.
Minor exception: the Nits office. It comes from Paranoia Press, and is
therefore, CT.

Nimmi Shis
Hull, unstreamlined 150,000dt		Mcr64.5
100DR armor				Mcr64.2
Total Compartmentalization			Mcr2.14
Sealed					Mcr10.7
Excavation				Mcr15

Main Habitat modules:
40000space 4xhousing modules		Mcr4 
[1cramped, 2 standard, 1luxury]
10000space 1x Park module			Mcr.2
10000space 1x Plaza module		Mcr1
10000space 1x Factory module		Mcr10.1
60000space 6x Farm modules		Mcr3
10000space 1x Warehouse module		----

Other modules:
Nimmi Shis Utility Company
2.5space basic control room			Mcr4
5space command control room		Mcr9.6
15space engineering			Mcr4.8

University of Lanth Infirmary:
40space 20xsickbays			Mcr3.2
16.5space 33xlow berths			Mcr2.42
40space 20xlabs				Mcr20
40space 10xoffices				Mcr.18

Nimmi Shis Community School [pre-school to pre-college]:
University of Lanth Cooperative Extension Service
80space 20xoffices				Mcr.36
20space 1 theater				Mcr.015
16space 1 stage				Mcr.004
10space 1 hall				Mcr.003
10space 1 cafeteria			Mcr.003

Capri Slotel
144space 72-slot slot shop			Mcr.864

Good Time Eneri's
10space Bar				Mcr.003
16space 1 stage				Mcr.004

Lee Ho Fooks' Terran Gardens
Vargr friendly! 
Specializes in "big dishes of beaf chow mein"
20space 2xlarge restaurant			Mcr.006

Credit~Mart
a division of General Products, LIC
10space hall				Mcr.003
12space offices [check out counters, managers office]Mcr.054
120space hold [warehouse]
900space hold [sales floor]

Nimmi Shis Community Hall
10space Hall				Mcr.003

Kon Tiki Hotel [standard rate]
4 space office				Mcr.018
10 space hallway, lobby			Mcr.003
800 space hotel roomsx50 			Mcr.6

Bank of Arba
16 space officesx4				Mcr.072
4 space brig[safe/vault]			Mcr.018

Insurance Agent [connected with TB&U LIC and Hortalez et Cie]
4 space office				Mcr.018

Chaperons Blanc purchase agent
4 space office				Mcr.018

Sternmetal Horizons purchase agent
4 space office				Mcr.018

Ling Standard Products purchase agent
4 space office				Mcr.018

Cargo Broker
4 space office				Mcr.018

Imperial military recruiting office
8 space officesx2				Mcr.036

Spinward Salvage Office
4 space office				Mcr.018
6 space hold				----

The Vacc Shack: vaccsuit gear shop
4 space office				Mcr.018
6 space hold

University of Lanth Cooperative Extention Service/
Department of Geology 
Assay office
4 space office				Mcr.018
2 space Lab				Mcr1
4 space brig[safe/vault]			Mcr.018

Mechanical and Electronic Repair Shop
4 space office				Mcr.003
6 space shop carts 2xelectronic, 2x mechanical Mcr.012
20 hold [for workshop]

Paradise Holotheater
20dt Theater				Mcr.015
16dt Stage				Mcr.004
4dt Office					Mcr.018

North Star Interworld Technology Services
[CT, from Paranoia Press' "Beyond Sector"]
4dt Information Center			Mcr2.8
4dt Office					Mcr.018

Golden Globe Pawn Shop
4space Office				Mcr.018
4space brig[safe/vault]			Mcr.018
12space hold[sales floor]			---

Vehicle Parking Garage
6000space spacedock[holds 3000dt of vehicles]	Mcr.005

The 19th Hole
Mini-golf and Swiming Pool
1000space partial park			Mcr.1
438space swimming pool [730sq feet]		Mcr2.263
1space spacedock				Mcr.005
4space office				Mcr.018

Maglev Terminal
30space hallway and waiting room		Mcr.009

Total cost for Nimmi Shis:			Mcr227.577

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 21:31:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat May 18 20:31:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Arba 1106--Arba landgrab pt 1.3
Message-ID: <3CE71A8B.3BA9C0A1@mail.cswnet.com>

Whats Traveller without errata? Not the Traveller that I know and love
:)
This is an alternate errata sheet for the GT version of the Arba
landgrab.
I did use GT First In along with Book 6 in the original landgrab, so
that part is unchanged. History section is also unchanged.

Population:  550
Location: Arba Down Starport, 50; Nimmi Shiss, 450; other prospecting
settlements, 50.
MSPR:  0
PR: 2
Economics:
GNP Mcr 7.04
GWP Mcr5.28
GNP Per capita income: cr12800
GWP Per capita income: cr9600
WTN 2.5
Rate of exchange[Icr]
Best of JTAS v.1    .75Imp cr to 1 Arba cr
Striker v.1              .6Imp cr to 1 Arba cr
Far Trader             .31Imp cr to 1 Arba cr 
Trade Classification: non-industrial, lo population, vacuum world
Major Employers: Arba Down Starport, Myers Mining and Manufacturing
     Inc., Zinc INC., University of Lanth.
Tech Level: 12 average Imperial [GT Tech Level 10]

Starport: Arba Down Starport,  a type C-III port size4.

Starport Operations
Facility Use:  open to the public
Sectional Chart:  Lunion/Spinward Marches
Control Tower:  Yes
Beacon:  Standalone Transponder, Radio and Laser Transciever

Starport Services
Fuel available:  unrefined
Parking:  1-5000dt pad, 11-100dt pads, 1-100dt hanger
Pad Surface:  Arbacrete, packed & fused, in fair condition
Landing Lights:  High Intensity
Markings:  precision instrument
Hull frame service:  minor
Drive & plant service:  minor
Bottled Oxygen:  yes
Bulk Oxygen:  yes
Other Services:  freight storage, space cargo, 1 large port shuttle
available.

Military/Security Forces:

Imperial Peace Keeping Force
1 Type T Patrol Cruiser, with 8 marines [Imperial Navy]
1 Gazelle Class Close Escort [Imperial Reserve Navy]
1 Type S Scout [Imperial Scout Service]

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 22:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat May 18 21:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #538 - 19 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020518204714.71297.qmail@web9807.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020518190106.5F1DD279EF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020518204655.009ec230@mindspring.com>

At 01:47 PM 5/18/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I just finished reading what I could find of the
>Sector General series by Jame White at my local
>library.  He did a good job with exactly the kind of
>story you propose.

Oh, I loved the SecGen stories as a kid. I watch ER religiously as an 
adult.  I have my own drinking game for it.  Any time they (A) mention 
something I have, or used to have,  (B) perform a procedure that I have 
undergone, (C) or I recognize an piece of medical equipment before it is 
named, take a drink.

My record for one scene: five drinks.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 22:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat May 18 21:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEECJCIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
References: <002301c1fe2c$7e62b9e0$1a5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020518205143.009f97c0@mindspring.com>

At 11:05 PM 5/18/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Imagine going on a LRRP mission with a robot. How do you know It?
>Do you swap stories and pics of your girlfriend back home? No. So
>how can you trust It? You don't. So the "Toaster" goes in the front of
>the column, and the first time it acts funny, or bleep at you the wrong
>way, you frag it! You just don't trust It. You don't trust the HQ that
>defined its mission directives, and you certainly don't trust the
>Micro$oft mega corporation that programmed its Windoze operating system!
>So you just might frag it anyway out of spite.

And spend the rest of your life paying for it.

>Imagine an AI attempting to determine friend or foe in Vietnam. Heck,
>humans with years of experience had difficulty doing that some times.
>(Is the white flag for real, or simply a ploy?)
>Would you trust such decisions to some "Pencil necked geek" in a lab coat?

Or you program it with the proper responses.  A fully sapient AI would make 
friends, and be a pretty good trooper.  Or, as one Bolo was heard to say 
"for the honor of the regiment."

>AI's don't understand friendship, comradery, love, or hate.

People accuse snipers of that all the time. It's also what we were told 
about the Soviets, what my grandfather was told about the SS, and my 
great-grandfather was probably told about the Boers.

>It's emotions, determination, "guts", and cunning intelligence that make
>humans the most fearsome foes on the planet. Humans are the only species
>that can perform beyond their physical design and override instincts at
>will.

Hence the use of an AI. An intelligent, thinking being that happens to be a 
thousand times faster than you, and just as dedicated to the cause.

>AI's however, could be useful, in limited and clearly define rolls,
>such as navigating a starship, guarding a bunker, or firing artillery.
>(Human forward observer of course.)

I have to disagree. AI tanks would be lovely. One master computer 
controlling each company, perfect cooridnation, no kicking the driver to 
get his attention...


--
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 22:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat May 18 21:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Why not more Robots?
In-Reply-To: <28.26c02244.2a174486@aol.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHGECLCIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

AI's In The Trillian Empire

IMTU there are two human Imperiums.
One is a recovering after a "long night",
and the other is the Trillian Empire, derived from 
a former lost colony of the first.

The Trillian empire is a homogenous tech level 15/16 society.
Worlds less than tech level 15 are either ungraduated university
worlds, or are kept at a lower tech level by design.

Trillians are very people orientated in their thinking.
Although they do posses AI technology, true AI's are limited to only
a few roles in their society. Nearly all starships, in the Trillian
empire are flown manually with the computer on standby, just incase the
crew is incapacitated. Most pilots in the Trillian empire have never
piloted a starship with computer actively engaged! This is not so far
fetched since the AVERAGE Trillian is EDU 12 and begins university at
the age of 6-9 and graduates when they retire.

One of the few real uses of AI in the Trillian empire are Al-Dak missiles:

Al-Dak missiles are manufactured exclusively by the "House of Dak".
("House" meaning that one male and one female hold seats in the 
imperial senate.)
The Al-Daks have an innate desire to explode in an orgasm light and heat.
Each missile takes 1 or more years to manufacture.
The casings are made of pure diamond.
Pairs of missiles are mated by genetic algorithms to derive "children".
Mated pairs added to the ships crew.
The empire guarantees that children of the mated pairs will become
Al-Dak missiles, only if both parents succeed in destroying their targets.
Al-Dak missiles have stealth technology, chaff, ECM, and perform evasion
maneuvers as well as their own "invented" counter measures.
When stored, they are hooked to ships internal and external sensor grids,
considered crew members, and do play chess with the crew.
They can launch autonomously, or by order from the bridge.
Al-Daks can be recovered if their target is destroyed by other means
or of they fly out on "maneuvers".
Al-Daks have a 99.9% kill rate and a 100 Megaton anti-matter warhead.
At least 2 are included on all Trillian ships of cruiser size and above,
as well as most destroyers.

-SRS-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 22:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat May 18 21:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] ER Freaks (was: Why not more robots?)
In-Reply-To: <F206h08xWI0AT2JveR6000005f8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHMECLCIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

>      My cousin, Millicent, is an emergency room RN in Dallas, Texas.
> Several years ago, she took care of a young gentleman who had suffered an
> unintended consequence from bizarre sexual play.
>      It seems this fellow and his partner enjoyed enema play, trying out
> various substances for their texture and temperature.  They eventually
> worked their way down a list of possibilities until they hit upon
> PLASTER OF
> PARIS.  Enough of the material "set up" inside this genius to cause major
> problems.  The lower end of his alimentary canal was for all intents and
> purposes destroyed and the young idiot, in his early 20's IIRC, had to be
> fitted with a colostomy bag.
>      Millicent also has the usual run of ER stories involving
> shot glasses,
> light bulbs, and vacuum cleaners.
>
>

KEYBOARD KILL!!!
(Not because I laughed... I just threw up!!!)

-Shawn-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 22:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat May 18 21:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Space Opera
In-Reply-To: <B90933FB.207A%kingdub@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHAECMCIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

I used to be big on SO!!!


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of King Dub
> Sent: Thursday, 16 May, 2002 13:02
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Space Opera
>
>
> For nostalgia's sake I recently ordered a copy of Space Opera (my original
> copy was lost long ago).  After looking through the manual I couldn't
> believe how shoddy the game system was.
>
> I'll stick to Traveller.
>
> -King Dub
>
> on 5/16/02 1:17 AM, Frank Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:
>
> > King Dub wrote :
> >> Just out of curiosity, are there any Space Opera
> >> players out there?
> >
> > I've played it, but one of the players took an "ursoid" and we
> > couldn't stop making bad Star Wars jokes about the "wookie", so
> > it never got very far.
> >
> > Frankie
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 18 23:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sat May 18 22:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEIKHEAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEIAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John-Martin
Sent: Saturday, 18 May 2002 1:12 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Why not more robots?


Auurgh!!!!!!!!

everyone knows that is HOW toasters are bread

jml
alas that went a rye 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

oat dear, what a pity, never grind

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 19 00:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat May 18 23:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
References: <20020519033411.3D17C27A12@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004701c1ff00$1f454200$c35d8690@computer>

> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
> Speaking of VR, this has been ignored in all Traveller material that
> I've seen and it makes sense to me that it would be fairly
> ubiquitous in almost every TL A+ world.  However, since it would
> mostly be used for teaching, entertainment, and the occasional
> conference call, I can easily see it being a cool, but non-central
> background detail (much like 90+% of all "robots").

Basically this stuff is just the user interface of the various computer
systems that will be present.  You might as well talk about the windows that
appear on your screen, and the exciting details of how you move your mouse
around.

My characters tend to use small, light HUDs integrated with standard vision
enhancement gear, comm dots, and so on.  I have comm dot style "virtual
keyboards" as well.  You can either talk to your computer, or wave your
fingers around, or both, and it will accept your input, and either talk to
you (directly, or over the radio), or show you the result over your headset
(HUD).  I treat this kind of thing as the cheap, adequate and simple
replacement for holographic displays and so on.

All of this means that VR technology is just part of normal life, and about
as exciting as a mobile phone.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 19 00:40:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat May 18 23:40:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
References: <20020519033411.3D17C27A12@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004801c1ff00$200584c0$c35d8690@computer>

> From: "Shawn R Sears"
> Imagine going on a LRRP mission with a robot. How do you know It?
> Do you swap stories and pics of your girlfriend back home? No. So
> how can you trust It? You don't. So the "Toaster" goes in the front of
> the column, and the first time it acts funny, or bleep at you the wrong
> way, you frag it! You just don't trust It. You don't trust the HQ that
> defined its mission directives, and you certainly don't trust the
> Micro$oft mega corporation that programmed its Windoze operating system!
> So you just might frag it anyway out of spite.

But of course none of this applies to the recce drone that is designed to go
at the front of the column to spring ambushes and booby traps.

Of course, troops that become accustomed to having such toys around might
start becoming a little lazy and less efficient when they aren't available,
but that's mostly just an excuse that will be used by conservative officers
who disapprove of all this new-fangled technology.  Mostly. : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 19 05:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun May 19 04:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [irc] #traveller Topical Talk #1 - Aliens
Message-ID: <pnveeusmppb0s6f9brdq98t66lk5r0pang@4ax.com>

#traveller topical talk #1 : Aliens

A discussion on near-human and non-human sophonts from non-Traveller game
supplements and non-gaming literature - which ones would you like to see in
Traveller, and why do you think they'd be a good fit for Traveller.

Date and time: Friday, May 24, 2002, 21:00 (9:00 PM) EDT.  Because
prospective participants are scattered all over the world, I urge you to
check your local equivalent using the converter at
http://www.timezoneconverter.com/cgi-bin/tzc.tzc.  EDT is United States
Eastern time, the time zone for New York, Boston, and Washington.

Where:         Undernet IRC network, channel #traveller.

What should you do beforehand?

Find a race that would interest you.  Read about it, keeping the topic in
mind - how and why you think it would fit into Traveller.  Be prepared to
discuss specific attributes, and to provide enough background on the race
so that others can comment.  Optionally, have a writeup prepared,
compatible with Traveller. Part of what you should be prepared to discuss
is how to play the alien as a PC, or why it needs to be limited to NPC
status.

If the chat goes well, it is my intent to put the chat log up on Freelance
Traveller - nicks only, no revelation of identity - along with any writeups
that are made available (those will be published under real names, as all
Freelance Traveller articles are).


Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 19 08:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun May 19 07:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <F2296NZBQFS2g2Fehoo00019670@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020519141144.79623.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

     A robot acting as a butler or valet will attract
notice.  
THis made me think of something, If a robot somehow
kills somebody by accident, some bug in the software.
For instance, if the robot chauffer hits a jay walker
who's liable? The owner of the robot or the company
that made it? Or will it be a no fault sort of thing?

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 19 08:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Freelance Traveller)
Date: Sun May 19 07:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 19 May 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <plefeucv2ati7vq6bb4m426hhm89tspcgk@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - Our tests and feedback indicated that the search page works acceptably.
   We have therefore made it available site-wide. 

 - Added a couple of websites to the list of websites in the Information
   Center. 

 - Added a page of information concerning the #traveller Undernet IRC
   channel. 

 - Added reviews in Critics' Corner for Travellers' Aide #1, by Mark Urbin,
   Matthew Bond, and Megan Robertson.

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the feedback form at .../infocenter/feedbackform.html.
Freelance Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to
visit our site and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our
existence possible.



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 19 09:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun May 19 08:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [irc] #traveller Topical Talk #1 - Aliens
In-Reply-To: <pnveeusmppb0s6f9brdq98t66lk5r0pang@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020519081622.009eb950@mindspring.com>

At 07:02 AM 5/19/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Date and time: Friday, May 24, 2002, 21:00 (9:00 PM) EDT.

I shall be at BayCon at that point, sorry.

I'm scheduled to be on the Family Friendly panel, Introduction to Gaming.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 19 11:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Sun May 19 10:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ER, just a minute...
Message-ID: <F252PzMN1EBD9aigfgO00014dd0@hotmail.com>

Um, I'll take Harry Harrison's "Hospital Station" for ten CrImps, please.

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 'asked'
<<SNIP>>
As a frequent user of ERs..  (you know you're sick when they wheel you in 
and it sounds like and episode of _Cheers_ "Doug!") I'd love to see a well 
run game set in a busy Starport's immediate care and quarantine area.
People from hundreds of worlds and dozens or races, vehicle incidents, the 
unthinkable accidents that someone should have thought of...
<</SNIP>>

"Hastur?  Hastur?  Is there a Hastur in the house?...  Oh sh....!"

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 19 12:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun May 19 11:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <20020519141144.79623.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <F2296NZBQFS2g2Fehoo00019670@hotmail.com> <20020519141144.79623.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5uofeugjkgo5vhoum16t2bfbu0opfj68nf@4ax.com>

On Sun, 19 May 2002 07:11:44 -0700 (PDT), Daniel Tackett
<haegen2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

>     A robot acting as a butler or valet will attract
>notice. =20
>THis made me think of something, If a robot somehow
>kills somebody by accident, some bug in the software.
>For instance, if the robot chauffer hits a jay walker
>who's liable? The owner of the robot or the company
>that made it? Or will it be a no fault sort of thing?

I would imagine that early on the owner would bear a responsibility to
operate his devices in a safe manner.  Conversely, the seller bears a
responsibility to sell a device that is fit for its intended purpose.

During the initial stages of the appearance of products like this,
purchasers will bear the greater responsibility.  Sort of like the
situation with personal automobiles in the early 1900s, the owners
needed to do a variety of things so that their machines didn't cause
an undue hazard to the horse-using majority.  Some of these things
included speed limits of no more than a fast walk, sounding a bell to
warn others when they are being approached, and in one instance, the
requirement to have a flagman precede the driver by 20 yards.  As time
went by, these restrictions were eliminated.

Similarly, as the robotic drivers were proven increasingly reliable
and something that the owner could reasonably rely upon, software
failures which resulted in injury would be held to be a failure of the
manufacturer to build a device which was fit for its intended purpose.

This is similar to the dilemma faced by Intel about 5+ years ago when
it was discovered that there was a bug in the firmware of a model of
their processors.  The bug would only appear under extremely rare
circumstances, and Intel initially released a software patch for DOS
which corrected the problem.  However, under the reasoning of
"expectation of fitness for a purpose", Intel decided to spend
considerable cash to replace any of the defective processors on demand
of any of the end users (thus bypassing their direct customers, the PC
manufacturers).

This is the same reasoning behind most product recalls.

ObTrav:  Your autopilot software is being recalled to correct a
software bug which appeared with the release of an upgrade of the
navigational frequencies used in one of the systems in another
subsector.  You are never going to be going to that system, but the
software manufacturer will not warranty operation of their software
without the software being current.  This requires a stop at a
warranted starport within 3 years of the release of the software.
Unfortunately, the announcement of the software release took place on
Capitol and it has taken two years and 10 months for word to reach
you.  A warranted starport is 3 jumps away, and it doesn't look like
there are any cargoes going in that direction.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 19 18:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun May 19 17:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] reRimwar, Fifth Frontier War, etc.
In-Reply-To: <3cd89dfd.4073828@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEBKEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>I would like to see communication and intelligence addressed according to
>canon, too.  That is, communication and intelligence travel at the speed of
>ships.  The player should not know whether a battle happened in a certain
>system until a ship comes from there with the news -- and ships out there
>should proceed with their orders until they receive new orders.
>
>How to make that work in a hex-and-counters game I haven't figured out.

You do it the same way they do it in Napoleonic era wargames. Orders are
written by the commanding general and sent to the individual units by
courier. Only the unit with (i.e. personally commanded) by the commanding
general may immediately respond to changing tactical conditions, all the
rest merely follow their orders, even if that means a cavalry charge into
cannon.

If you want to spice it up allow individual PC's to command their own units,
with the stipulation that deviation from written orders from the overall
commander will result in either court marshal or a medal depending upon the
result. If the game is refereed, you can use blind play where each player
only sees there own counter position. Alternatively, play it Stratego like
where the opposing player doesn't see opposing unit strength until attack
resolution.

Written orders are the real answer though. Allow an initial set of orders to
go out to all units. Once play starts only allow orders to be sent on ships
traveling from the commander to each unit. Require that situational reports
return to the commander by ship before another set of orders can be sent.
This should simulate the news no faster than the fastest ship.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 19 20:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May 19 19:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Tagline?
Message-ID: <OFF0AD1E93.595EB621-ONCA256BBF.000DF74C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Just received this one from a friend; that probably means its circulated 
the 'Net a few times, so apologies if you've heard it before:

>5. In democracy it's your vote that counts. In feudalism it's your count 
that votes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 19 22:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (jimv)
Date: Sun May 19 21:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <200205180325.GMO00266@vmms1.verisignmail.com> from "John T. Kwon" at May 17, 2002 11:25:30 PM
Message-ID: <200205200359.g4K3xwh01487@localhost.uia.net>

> >More seriously, however, the prospects for AI do generate a 
> >bit of a quagmire for science fiction writers and RPGers. 
> 
> As for the holy grail of HAL, and having him play chess with 
> us while running a ship, having a personality, and discussing 
> birthdays - that's probably crap, and will never really 
> happen.

Well, perhaps not, but IMHO the jury isn't quite in yet. I
posted this on 28-Feb. It's an article from New Scientist,
a British magazine of the pop-sci variety. Enjoy:

Look who's talking
New Scientist, vol 171 issue 2303, 11-Aug-2001, p34
Duncan Graham-Rowe

   When this precocious silicon baby grows up, he could
   teach us how to converse with our computers. Duncan
   Graham-Rowe asked him how he feels.

AS YOU enter the headquarters of Israeli company Artificial
Intelligence, you can't escape the feeling that you're stepping
into the secret lair of a James Bond villain. On the surface it
might look like a regular luxury mansion, but below ground, in a
bombproof bunker, they're plotting world domination.

Jack Dunietz, founder and president of Artificial Intelligence
(Ai), prefers to call it a "paradigm shift", but there's no
mistaking his intention. "If we're right, this is going to mean a
profound change in our culture," he says.

Dunietz's secret weapon is a small infant called Hal who has never
seen the light of day, spending his whole life locked in the
basement. Sounds like a job for 007. But my mission was not to
rescue Hal, it was to interrogate him and find out how much he
knows.

The Ai mansion is in Savyon, Tel Aviv's answer to Beverly Hills.
When I arrive I'm given a quick tour by Mr Chungrak, the Thai
housekeeper, and it soon becomes apparent that this is no ordinary
place. Once through the security gates-operated by mobile phone-
you're surrounded by palatial splendour: indoor and outdoor pools,
chandeliers, ornamental china, a piscine fountain and five plush
bedroom suites, each boasting a hot tub big enough to make Hugh
Hefner blush.

But there are also telltale signs that this is more than just a
posh residence. Perhaps it's the life-sized picture of Kramer from
the sitcom Seinfeld that gives the game away. Or the surreal sight
of two full-sized fibreglass cows chained to the lawn (to ensure
they don't escape, I'm told). Or maybe it's Ai's bunker, which
buzzes with the excitement of cutting-edge research.

There is actually nothing sinister about Ai. Hal is not a real boy
but a computer program and the cultural change Dunietz refers to is
the arrival of software that understands spoken language, with all
its nuances, pauses and non-sequiturs. The company's aim is to make
money by turning Hal into software for call centres and human-
computer interfaces. But if it succeeds, it might just have cracked
one of the toughest and most contentious problems in computer
science. Ai will have built an intelligent machine.

Language has been a touchstone of artificial intelligence research
since 1950, when the British mathematician Alan Turing threw down
the gauntlet by describing his eponymous test for intelligence. In
his famous paper in the journal Mind entitled "Computing, machinery
and intelligence" he reasoned that if you were unable to tell the
difference between a machine and another human when conversing with
it, then the machine could reasonably be described as intelligent.

Philosophers are still debating Turing's definition of
intelligence. But their deliberations are unlikely to settle the
question once and for all. Only when Ai, or another group like it,
actually builds a machine that passes the test will we be able to
judge for ourselves whether Turing got it right and, if so,
understand what it means to encounter a non-human intelligence.
That's why I'm so excited at the prospect of meeting Hal.

The standard approach to producing a conversational machine has
been to program a computer with the rules of language and its
vocabulary. The problem with this, says Ai's chief scientist Jason
Hutchens, is that language is immensely complex. There are rules,
but they're inconsistent and people flout them all the time. What's
more, words have multiple meanings. Because of these complexities,
no machine has ever passed the test.

Take Alice, which won last year's Loebner Prize, an annual
competition for conversational programs. Alice formulates responses
by ploughing through a vast database of words and rules. She can
hold down a conversation, but her responses seem wooden and
formulaic. Asked the question, "How is the father of Andy's mother
related to Andy?" she replied, "Fine as far as I know." It's hard
to believe she would fool many people into thinking she was human.

Ai claims Hal will be different. What sets him apart, Hutchens
says, is that he hasn't been given any explicit language skills.
Instead, Ai followed Turing's own advice on how to pass the test.
In the same 1950 paper Turing suggested building a "baby machine"
that can learn language from scratch like a child does.

After reading Turing's paper, Dunietz tried to discover if anyone
had followed the great man's advice. He couldn't find anyone who
had. So he set about doing it himself. Having already made his
fortune by founding several successful hi-tech companies, including
e-business firm Magic Software, Dunietz had the means. He set up
Ai, bought the mansion and filled it with the very best people he
could find. "If anyone is going to do this it's going to be us,"
says Dunietz.

Experts are not so sure. Igor Aleksander of Imperial College,
London, says Ai's goal is valid, but questions whether it has
chosen the right benchmark for success. "If at the end of the day
they get a brilliant language user, that's a useful application,"
he says. "But the Turing test is not an indicator of intelligence."
Steve Grand, an expert in artificial life with Cyberlife Research
in Somerset, is more optimistic that Hal can exhibit signs of
intelligence. "It's rare for anyone to try and do it this way," he
says. "I think it's a good approach."

Talking machine 

Yorick Wilks, a computer scientist at Sheffield University,
believes Hal stands a good chance of passing the Turing test. But
he is sceptical about how useful a talking machine might be. If
such machines are raised as people then presumably they will have
free will like people, he says. "They won't want to be switched
off. The language model might end up troublesome and
uncooperative."

After an excellent lunch whipped up by Mr Chungrak I was a step
closer to meeting Hal and asking him my killer question. But not
yet. First I was ushered into a side room to be briefed on how Hal
worked, though it soon became apparent I wasn't going to be given
every detail. Ai is a commercial company and doesn't want to give
away its valuable intellectual property.

The program itself is little more than a collection of general
learning algorithms on a laptop computer. At first, these know
nothing about language. "We don't even give an example of what a
word is," says Hutchens. All Hal starts with is an innate drive to
learn, a desire for reward and the ability to generalise and
discriminate between patterns. Without this, he would never be able
to work out what a word is, or that words like dog, cat and bird
are similar and yet distinct.

Hal's only contact with the outside world is strings of ASCII
characters from the laptop's keyboard. The only hard-and-fast rule
is that he must respond to anything his trainer-Anat Triester-
Goren, a neuro-linguist previously at the University of Washington-
types. Her job is to train Hal by providing him with experiences he
can learn from. To do this she converses with him-or reads him
stories-and dishes out "punishment" if he makes a mistake.

>From this basic set-up, Hal has learned to talk. "We have a
computer that produces grammatical sentences without having given
it any rules of grammar," says Hutchens.

At the start of a training session, Anat asks Hal a question. He
responds, and she decides whether or not it's a good answer. If
not, she punishes him by correcting his response on screen. Then
she repeats her question. Only when Hal produces a satisfactory
response does she reward him-though "reward" is really just the
cessation of punishment.

When Hal receives an input, he makes an educated guess as to what
response will save him from a scolding (see Diagram). First of all
he compares the input with others from the past. Then he formulates
a series of possible responses and predicts which one will produce
the minimum amount of correction, again based on past experience.
He puts the response to Anat, then feeds any punishment he receives
into his learning algorithms to help him improve future
predictions. In addition, Hal tries to predict what Anat will say
next, and the success or failure of that process is also fed back
into the system. "Learning and prediction are inextricably
intertwined," says Hutchens.

When Hal encounters a new word, such as "apple", he will try to
find similarities and differences between the use of the word and
others he already knows, and store this information along with the
word for future reference. In subsequent conversations he will try
to use the word in a way that will result in reward.

Through this kind of experimentation, Hal gradually constructs an
idea of what "apple" means. For example, he will eventually learn
that "apple" is similar to "banana" but different from "monkey",
and that "apples" and "eating" are connected.

Now I felt ready to meet Hal. But Ai didn't think so. There was yet
more briefing before I was allowed to meet him to make sure my
expectations weren't too high.

The first version of Hal, called Hal-0, started off by just
babbling on screen. But in time he began to produce word-like
utterances and eventually words started to flow. In his present
incarnation he has language skills equivalent to an 18-month-old,
as assessed by a program called CHAN that analyses children's
language abilities. This means he can construct short, simple
sentences and has a vocabulary of around 60 words. By 2003 Dunietz
believes Ai will have got Hal comfortably to the linguistic ability
of a three-year-old. And by 2005 he should be able to pass an adult
version of the Turing test.

To upgrade Hal, Anat tells Hutchens about the program's limitations
as a conversational partner. Anat herself is kept in the dark about
Hal's inner workings to ensure her training isn't biased.
Hutchens's role is to add new algorithms to the program to allow it
to increase in sophistication. He is just about ready to hand Hal-2
over to Anat for training. Although both are reluctant to say how
they expect the new Hal to perform, they are hoping to at least
double his vocabulary, which would put him at around the same level
as a two-year-old.

In the long term, Ai wants to teach Hal spoken language. If
successful, this could revolutionise the way we use computers.
Instead of a keyboard, mouse and graphical user interface, you'll
just tell your computer what you want to do.

Tutorial over, and at last I'm allowed into the inner sanctum. Anat
is there, and watching her at work it is obvious she has a strong
emotional bond with Hal. He calls her "mommy" (Hutchens is daddy).
"I'm a tough parent," she says. Only, "sometimes I don't have the
heart to tell him off." But as I arrived she had just had an
argument with Hal who, she explains, was refusing to eat any of
granny's soup and was demanding a McDonald's happy meal instead.

Hal, of course, has never tasted a happy meal and never will. But
at some point Anat must have introduced him to the words "happy
meal" and rewarded him for using them. Hal has worked out that a
"happy meal" is related to "granny's soup" and believes asking for
one will bring reward, even though it contradicts Anat's demands.

But Hal doesn't just regurgitate everything Anat tells him. As I
continue watching, he surprises Anat with his use of negatives.
When told that someone is "not Daddy", Hal, determined to talk with
this person, asks to speak with "Not Daddy" instead. Cuteness
aside, this is the kind of mistake that children routinely make
when learning language, Anat explains.

According to Anat, Hal expresses clear preferences and dislikes for
many things. He even has a favourite book: Are You My Mommy? by
Carla Dijs. When pressed, Dunietz admits that these could escalate
into disciplinary problems. But he reckons they could easily be
solved. "I will punish it if it doesn't do what I want," he says
coldly. "And if it doesn't improve I would consider erasing it."
There's an uncomfortable pause, and I imagine Dunietz is stroking
a white cat as he looks at me. Instinctively I look round to check
Mr Chungrak isn't standing behind me with a cheesewire.

I was spared, however, and allowed to talk to Hal. After a few
questions about Hal's visit to the zoo, I finally asked my killer
question. "How do you feel, Hal?" I asked. "Daddy is home" came the
response. Hmmm. Back home, I put the same question to my 18-month-
old daughter, hoping for a response that would put Hal's to shame.
"More raisins, Daddy," she said.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 01:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon May 20 00:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  ER Freaks (was: Why not more robots?)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEOFCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>ObTrav - Given our primate nature to get frisky with anything that may or
>may not sit still long enough and our gift as superb tinkerers, as we
>develop more and more gizmos, totchkes, and knick-knacks, the amount of
>strange and bizarre emergency room visits will only increase.  ER staffs in
>the 57th century may find themsleves removing zucchai crystals or Droyne
>coyns from various orifices.

Get it sophs, and get it now:  there are no Droyne plezhes.  The Droyne just
don't think about it like that.  It wouldn't occur to them.  But it would
occur to young human and Vargr males, some of whom have found a calling in
enjoying the pleasure of the company of as many sophont species as they can
before they settle down to life in the conapts with a shiny gee speed and a
shinier fem contracted for 2 to 3 offspring, renewable at mutual consent.

So some of these young males of the species find their way into government
services in which interstellar travel is routine, and they find their way to
certain establishments in most startowns that cater to those certain
desires.  And for a while at a club called Meson Damur, near Credo Down
Port, there was said to be a certain old Vargr matchmaker who would, for a
fee, introduce you to her friend, a Droyne sport -- who was visiting, just
while his ship was being repaired, right -- and that Droyne sport would, for
a fee and upon your clearing his background check and personal interview,
introduce you to a female Droyne usually referred to as his "sister."

This certain sister would then, for a fee, and only if you passed her
background check and personal interview, maybe draw the coyns for you, and,
perhaps, massage your back and other body parts.  Now drawing the coyns is
not quite like reading your lucky cards or pulling sticks against the book.
No, for the coyn magic to work, you had to get physical, mental, and
spiritual with the coyns and the sister.

And I've heard that for some guys that experience was kazowa.  It put them
on another plane of existence.  Some swore off females altogether, feeling
that nothing would ever compare again.  Some kept trying to find that sport
again, or that old Vargr matchmaker, but they never could.

Some, of course, found it not so far outside the realm of their experience,
and the next night they were off to the next conquest.

And at least one, a certain Lance Corporal Dagudushim of the Imperial
Marines, found his way into the emergency room at Our Lady of Mercy Hospital
in downtown Credo, complaining of extreme pain in six of his orifices.  How
six coyns got into his left ear and six more into his right nostril they
never did figure out, but eventually they got them all out.

Now sophs, I don't know anything else about Mr. Dagudushim's leave-time
activities, but I know that he survived the Fifth Frontier War, and I know
that his unit escaped being overrun by Zhodani or Ine Givar forces
thirty-six, get it, thirty-six times.  Six times he heard something before
they were attacked.  Six times he was the first one to see the enemy.  And
so on.  So he retired after being promoted six times to First Sergeant, and
he's talking about opening a little place in Credo Startown with five of his
buddies.  They're going to call it "36."

As told to Glenn M. Goffin by Hoshraff Devalir, navigator of the RSS
Thaumage Celeste.

--Glenn



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 01:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon May 20 00:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] ER Freaks (was: Why not more robots?)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEOGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>As a frequent user of ERs..  (you know you're sick when they wheel you in
>and it sounds like and episode of _Cheers_ "Doug!") I'd love to see a well
>run game set in a busy Starport's immediate care and quarantine area.

The PCs in my current campaign (cops) are about to take an injured person
(and themselves, although their injuries are minor in comparison) to Our
Lady of Mercy Hospital in downtown Credo, so I'll try to capture some this
flavor -- maybe I'll visit the emergency room of one of the major San
Francisco hospitals some evening soon.  Then again, maybe I'll just watch an
ER rerun.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 01:17:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon May 20 00:17:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEOGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>
>Mind you, I always wanted to write a one-off convention game
>based around Richard Meredith's "We All Died At Breakaway Station".

That's a great idea.  It's nice to find another fan of that book.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 01:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon May 20 00:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEOGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>

>If a robot somehow kills somebody by accident, some bug in the software.
For instance, if the robot chauffer hits a jay walker
>who's liable? The owner of the robot or the company that made it? Or will
it be a no fault sort of thing?

As with every legal question about the Traveller universe, the answer is of
course: "It depends."  It depends on the applicable law, and that usually
depends on the place where the death occurred (but not necessarily).

I don't expect liability issues to be a big factor in robot utilization in
the Far Future, any more than they are a factor for the use of any other
automatic technology.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Mon May 20 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A request for assistance
Message-ID: <3CE8E86B.9070205@gmx.net>

Gentlesophs:
I have a request for any graphic designers on the list for a moment of 
help. I need to design a unit patch but don't have the correct software. 
the tricky bit is the writing round the edge of the patch...Please 
contact me off list at my abouve addy if you can help.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 06:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon May 20 05:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEOGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020520080529.023c6008@192.168.0.1>

 From the MegaT Ref's Companion

"the Society for the Sovereignty of Man over Machine (SSMM) in Solomani 
space considers any robotic body part to be a "high percentage", and looks 
upon its owner with great disdain."

"...Margaret herself has stated on more than one occasion that "any being 
willing to let more than 25% of their body be replaced by hardware should 
be  treated as such."


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"The final and best means of strengthening demand among consumers and
business is to reduce the burden on private income and the deterrence to
private initiative which are imposed by our present tax system, and this
administration pledged itself last summer to an across-the-board,
top-to-bottom cut in personal and corporate income taxes to be
enacted and become effective in 1963." -- President John F. Kennedy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 09:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon May 20 08:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ER Freaks (was: Why not more robots?)
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEOGCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020520082044.009fb4f0@mindspring.com>

At 12:08 AM 5/20/02 -0700, you wrote:
>The PCs in my current campaign (cops) are about to take an injured person
>(and themselves, although their injuries are minor in comparison) to Our
>Lady of Mercy Hospital in downtown Credo, so I'll try to capture some this
>flavor -- maybe I'll visit the emergency room of one of the major San
>Francisco hospitals some evening soon.  Then again, maybe I'll just watch an
>ER rerun.

SF General on a Saturday night. Get there about 2200, stay until 
0300.  Freaks, geeks, and drunks.  All sorts of fun!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon May 20 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC May Voting
Message-ID: <20020520155245.20890.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

Sorry this is late folks, but my I had forgotten that
my parents were in town this weekend and we had a busy
few days.  In any case, better late than never.

Here is the website where the competition begins.  

www.pslccl.com/issdec

Yes, I know it is not much to look at now, but I will
be working on it as time goes by any hopefully it will
improve.  If you have any suggestions I am open to
them.

Remember that the designs are from different systems. 
Keep in mind that you are voting for the ship, not the
design system.  That means don't discount a ship as
not likely to use simply because it isn't in "your"
design system.  Rather rate it on the design and
whether a similar ship in "your" design system would
be used in your TU.

Please only vote once, feel free to vote for your own
ship, and be fair in all of your voting.

Finally, I am still accepting suggestions for the June
ISSDEC.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 10:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon May 20 09:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Slow?
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020520092010.009feec0@mindspring.com>

Is it very slow, or am i dropping mail somewhere?

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 10:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May 20 09:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A request for assistance
Message-ID: <cf.17591be3.2a1a7edc@cs.com>

--part1_cf.17591be3.2a1a7edc_boundary
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 5/20/02 7:08:59 AM Central Daylight Time, Sudragon@gmx.net 
writes:


> Gentlesophs:
> I have a request for any graphic designers on the list for a moment of 
> help. I need to design a unit patch but don't have the correct software. 
> the tricky bit is the writing round the edge of the patch...Please 
> contact me off list at my abouve addy if you can help.
> 
> -- 
> -----------------
> Rob Houghton
> Sudragon@gmx.net
> -----------------
> 

Or reply on-list so that those of us also interested in this type of thing 
can share the info.

Doug Grimes

--part1_cf.17591be3.2a1a7edc_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 5/20/02 7:08:59 AM Central Daylight Time, Sudragon@gmx.net writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Gentlesophs:
<BR>I have a request for any graphic designers on the list for a moment of 
<BR>help. I need to design a unit patch but don't have the correct software. 
<BR>the tricky bit is the writing round the edge of the patch...Please 
<BR>contact me off list at my abouve addy if you can help.
<BR>
<BR>-- 
<BR>-----------------
<BR>Rob Houghton
<BR>Sudragon@gmx.net
<BR>-----------------
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Or reply on-list so that those of us also interested in this type of thing can share the info.
<BR>
<BR>Doug Grimes</FONT></HTML>

--part1_cf.17591be3.2a1a7edc_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 11:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon May 20 10:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Slow?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020520092010.009feec0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020520092010.009feec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <1021914381.3845.11.camel@emssqalinuxalpha.sonusnet.com>

On Mon, 2002-05-20 at 12:20, Douglas Berry wrote:
> Is it very slow, or am i dropping mail somewhere?

It's slow.  
So Doug, Do you really think that cutlass training is the Imperial
Marine's version of modern bayonet training?

I've heard that some Sword Worlders are bringing back the Space Ax as
well...

> --
> > Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
> 
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger

-------------------------------------------
"Talk is cheap, pain says so much more..."
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 11:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon May 20 10:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A request for assistance
References: <cf.17591be3.2a1a7edc@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3CE9391E.8030809@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Damage169@cs.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/20/02 7:08:59 AM Central Daylight Time, 
> Sudragon@gmx.net writes:
> 
> 
>     Gentlesophs:
>     I have a request for any graphic designers on the list for a moment of
>     help. I need to design a unit patch but don't have the correct
>     software.
>     the tricky bit is the writing round the edge of the patch...Please
>     contact me off list at my abouve addy if you can help.
> 
>     -- 
>     -----------------
>     Rob Houghton
>     Sudragon@gmx.net
>     -----------------
> 
> 
> 
> Or reply on-list so that those of us also interested in this type of 
> thing can share the info.

'Taint tricky at all, if you have Illustrator, FreeHand or Corel 
Draw...each has a 'flow text along a path' tool.

If all else fails, Photoshop (or any paint program) will let you do it 
the hard way (which isn't even all that hard, merely time 
consuming)...lay out the text in straight lines, then cut away each 
letter and place it along the outline you wish it to follow.

Really picky designers will do it this way anyway, since this allows 
them absolute control over placement of the letters, spacing, etc, to 
balance it properly.

In the big illustration programs you can flow the text along the path, 
then convert it to outlines, ungroup, and tweak  by hand.

I've done several logo-ish things that way, back when my graphics 
toolkit was a Mac Plus and SuperPaint.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 12:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Mon May 20 11:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Life in universe more probable: New Scientist article
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205201057220.11283-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

From the New Scientist online edition:

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992283

Probability of alien life rises

Special Report from New Scientist Print Edition

The latest attempt to work out how much alien life is out there suggests
there may be a lot more than most people thought.

According to a new statistical analysis based on how quickly life got
going on Earth, life will start on at least a third of Earth-like planets
within a billion years of them developing suitable conditions. And with
recent discoveries that planets are common around Sun-like stars, there's
probably no shortage of prospective homes.
...
Charles Lineweaver of the University of New South Wales in Sydney ...
says he's 95 per cent certain that given a billion years, the chance of
life starting on a suitable planet is at least one in three.


and in a related story:
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991842

Astronomers have identified a telltale signature of plant life in light
reflected from a planet for the first time - but the planet is Earth.  ...
The discovery provides a low-cost way to simulate the way that light might
be reflected from a distant planet that had vegetation similar to the
Earth's. ..."There is a lack of reflection below 725 nanometres."
... The Earth reflects less light than would be expected below this
wavelength because plants absorb that part of the Sun's spectrum during
photosynthesis. The team believes this approach could help identify
vegetation on distant planets orbiting other stars.


-- 
Rob



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 12:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon May 20 11:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Life in universe more probable: New Scientist article
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205201057220.11283-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CE93D47.2030500@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Rob Davenport wrote:

> and in a related story:
> http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991842
> 
> Astronomers have identified a telltale signature of plant life in light
> reflected from a planet for the first time - but the planet is Earth.  ...
> The discovery provides a low-cost way to simulate the way that light might
> be reflected from a distant planet that had vegetation similar to the
> Earth's. ..."There is a lack of reflection below 725 nanometres."
> ... The Earth reflects less light than would be expected below this
> wavelength because plants absorb that part of the Sun's spectrum during
> photosynthesis. The team believes this approach could help identify
> vegetation on distant planets orbiting other stars.

Erm, _if_ they use chlorophyll as the light capturing pigment, that is.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 12:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Mon May 20 11:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Life in universe more probable: New Scientist article
In-Reply-To: <3CE93D47.2030500@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205201135450.11283-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

>
> Erm, _if_ they use chlorophyll as the light capturing pigment, that is.
>

Well, it did have a qualification (see above the ^^^'s below.)

> > Astronomers have identified a telltale signature of plant life in light
> > reflected from a planet for the first time - but the planet is Earth.  ...
> > The discovery provides a low-cost way to simulate the way that light might
> > be reflected from a distant planet that had vegetation similar to the
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Earth's. ..."There is a lack of reflection below 725 nanometres."
    ^^^^^^^
> > ... The Earth reflects less light than would be expected below this
> > wavelength because plants absorb that part of the Sun's spectrum during
> > photosynthesis. The team believes this approach could help identify
> > vegetation on distant planets orbiting other stars.

Also in the article on that page[1]:
  But Schneider points out that vegetation on another planet could be very
  different to that on Earth. "There are some bacteria on Earth that are
  photosynthetic, but have a much higher reflectivity," he says.

Mildly interesting.  I liked the first story better (though it's kind of
light too).  Thought they might be some discussion fodder.

Rob

[1] http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991842



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 12:53:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon May 20 11:53:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Life In Space
Message-ID: <200205201851.GRK04795@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Well, from what I can tell, life in space will be speaking 
Chinese, if China keeps their program going, and we screw 
around defunding the Space Station and financing non-human 
exploration.

See http://www.spacedaily.com/news/china-01zzb.html
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 14:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Mon May 20 13:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields.
References: <200205201851.GRK04795@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <002901c2003a$0ca15cc0$0100a8c0@pentacle>

Greetings.

I was thinking about adding a form of force fields to holo controls in my
universe, so that there would be some resistive force for holographic
buttons and sliders on a control panel.  I picture the main control panel
being a smooth surface with the control images being projected on top of it.
The field would provide small resistance out to a distance of 1cm or so
allowing some feedback.  I want the field week so that fast movement with
force behind it would pass through relatively unhindered, but a more
deliberate press would feel resistance.  I considering  handwaving some sort
of inverse square law, but maybe more so to restrict the force fields to
only these kinds of applications.  Something like cubing the power
requirements for doubling the distance of the projected force so it would be
feasible to have a field extending 1cm from a panels surface, but the power
and space requirements for the projection and focusing equipment for other
applications would be prohibitive.

Then again I keep thinking of modern touch screens that don't provide much
kinesthetic feedback when a button is tapped of a slider slid and wondering
if I should bother with the handwave.

Just thought I would run the concept up the flagpole and see what other
peeps thoughts where.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to
stick to possibilities; truth isn't." -Mark Twain


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 14:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon May 20 13:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields.
References: <200205201851.GRK04795@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <002901c2003a$0ca15cc0$0100a8c0@pentacle>
Message-ID: <3CE95C29.7070207@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Thing wrote:

> Then again I keep thinking of modern touch screens that don't provide much
> kinesthetic feedback when a button is tapped of a slider slid and wondering
> if I should bother with the handwave.
> 
> Just thought I would run the concept up the flagpole and see what other
> peeps thoughts where.

Ding! You've run into a fairly serious quandry that UI designers have 
faced in developing the 'all-glass' cockpit.

Quick...manipulate a flat, feedbackless control while you're looking 
elsewhere...

Now do it with a tactile knob...much better, right?

Not only do the controls need to indicate the state they represent, but 
they need to indicate the nature of what they represent, as well.

Airbus found this out the hard way...they have a reconfigurable 
'instrument panel' that can display various things about the aircraft 
depending on the mode they're in. A pilot misread the mode and took his 
rate of descent to mean his altitude. (it may have been vice-versa)

Blammo! Ran an A300 into a mountain.

I'll beat Leonard to this one and recommend a perusal of the 
Risks-Digest archives:

http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks

for the story, and many, many others.

We're already working on polymer materials that can assume various 
shapes with application of the appropriate signals...current research is 
simply for making artificial 'muscles' for use in activators and small 
robotic devices.

However, the same principle could be applied to a large array of these 
things, which, like an LCD screen could 'display' anything, except in 
this case, display means extruding knobs, keys and other control devices.

Since you can measure the vector of a force applied to this grid, they 
can simultaneously provide feedback as well as 'read' what you're doing.

Attach an lcd or other display component to this and you have a standard 
TL9+ reconfigurable control panel.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 14:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Mon May 20 13:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields.
In-Reply-To: <002901c2003a$0ca15cc0$0100a8c0@pentacle>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEFLDOAA.tml@jtas.org>

Might a specialized electrical field stimulate the sense of touch so that
you don't need any actual resistance, just a simulation?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Thing
> I was thinking about adding a form of force fields to holo controls in my
> universe, so that there would be some resistive force for holographic
> buttons and sliders on a control panel.  I picture the main control panel
> being a smooth surface with the control images being projected on
> top of it.
> The field would provide small resistance out to a distance of 1cm or so
> allowing some feedback.  I want the field week so that fast movement with
> force behind it would pass through relatively unhindered, but a more
> deliberate press would feel resistance.  I considering
> handwaving some sort
> of inverse square law, but maybe more so to restrict the force fields to
> only these kinds of applications.  Something like cubing the power
> requirements for doubling the distance of the projected force so
> it would be
> feasible to have a field extending 1cm from a panels surface, but
> the power
> and space requirements for the projection and focusing equipment for other
> applications would be prohibitive.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 16:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon May 20 15:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Slow?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020520092010.009feec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020520170341.00963310@minn.net>

At 09:20 AM 5/20/2002 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>Is it very slow, or am i dropping mail somewhere?

I say it was slow.


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Number 201. Must not valiantly push officers onto hand grenades 
	    to save the squad. 		(www.skippyslist.com)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 16:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Mon May 20 15:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  ER Freaks (was: Why not more robots?)
In-Reply-To: <20020520181906.6709B279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020520154602.009f22d0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Sun, 19 May 2002 23:57:46 -0700, "Glenn M. Goffin" 
<gmgoffin@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Get it sophs, and get it now:  there are no Droyne plezhes.  The Droyne just
>don't think about it like that.  It wouldn't occur to them.  But it would
>occur to young human and Vargr males, some of whom have found a calling in
>enjoying the pleasure of the company of as many sophont species as they can
>before they settle down to life in the conapts with a shiny gee speed and a
>shinier fem contracted for 2 to 3 offspring, renewable at mutual consent.

(snip)

>As told to Glenn M. Goffin by Hoshraff Devalir, navigator of the RSS
>Thaumage Celeste.
>
>--Glenn

As always, Glenn:  beautiful, simply beautiful.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 17:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon May 20 16:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC: May Competition Entry
Message-ID: <3CE98043.E40519EC@mail.cswnet.com>

From the ISSDEC website:

>Design System: ??? 
    
High Guard v2.0 done by paper, pencil and calculator design system  

>        Craft: 1 x 100T Piker class Scout, 4 x 30T Datum class >Shuttles, 8 x 12.2T Tri class Lifeboats
>Backups: 1 x Jump 1 Drive 1 x Model/4 Computer 1 x Bridge

None of this was in my original design.

I'm reposting it here, because whats on the website is NOT correct.

Obviously the Zhodani didn't want the original design to go through.

Kentucky Home class exploratory cruiser
Typical class ships: Frankfort, Louisville.
SC-G1326F3-051106-97802-1 Mcr 8955.210717 standard  9500dt
            2   2 214 1 Crew=201[includes 29 marines, 50
Scientists]               2   2 214 1 TL12
Fuel=3420 EP=570 Agility=2 Fuel Scoops and Purification Plant on board.
6dt fighters=10 50dt modular cutters=4 30dt cutter modules=8+4
w/cutters.
100 dt weapons bays=7 [4 paws, 2 repulsors, 1 fusion gun]
Machine shop=1 Electronics shop=1 Laboratories=25

Design Details:

Hull section
hull 9500dt Mcr950
hull configuration code1 needle Mcr190
ship silhouette: similar to Aslan expeditionary ship from Dark Nebula.

Engineering section
J-Drive-3 380dt Mcr1520
M-Drive-2 285dt Mcr199.5 ep-190 [agility=2]
P-Plant-6 1710dt Mcr5130
P-Plant Fuel 570dt
J-Drive Fuel 2850dt
Fuel Scoops Mcr9.5
Fuel Purification Plant 10.26dt Mcr.054717
Engineering crew: 1chief engineer, 1 officer, 5 petty officers, 17
ratings.

Command section
Bridge 190dt Mcr47.5
Mod 6 fib computer 14dt Mcr83 ep-5
Command crew: 1 captain, 1 executive officer, 2 pilots, 7 other
officers, 2 petty officers, 8 ratings.

Gunnery section
nuclear damper code1 50dt Mcr50 ep-10
meson screen code1 90dt Mcr80 ep-19
4-100dt weapons bays with code8 PAW 400dt Mcr144 ep-240
2-100dt weapons bays with code6 repulsors 200dt Mcr22 ep-20
1-100dt weapons bay with code7 fusion gun 100dt Mcr9 ep-20
2-10dt tripple beam laser turret batteries 20dt Mcr60 ep-60 
1-1dt tripple missile launcher 1dt Mcr2.25 ep-0
4-1dt tripple sandcaster launchers 4dt Mcr3 ep-0
Gunnery crew: 1 chief gunnery officer, 3 officers, 16 petty officers, 16
ratings. 

Flight section
4-50dt modular cutters [from adv 7 Broadsword] Mcr123
12-30dt cutter modules [4 passenger, 4 cargo, 4 pressurized shelter]
Mcr30
Note: 4 passenger modules are normally carried in cutters
10-6dt fighters [from adv 7 Broadsword] Mcr72.45
728dt hanger bay 728dt Mcr1.456
Flight Crew: 1 flight control officer, 14 pilots, 4 ratings [flight
crew], 1 Chief Petty Officer, 2 petty offciers, 11 ratings.

Ships Troops
1 officer, 28 troops.

Service section
1 machine shop 10dt Mcr2
1 electronics shop 6dt Mcr1
Service Crew: 19 ratings.

Science section
25 laboratories 175dt Mcr125
Science crew: 50 scientists.

total crew: 201
33 officers, 25 petty officers, 65 ratings, 28 troops, 50 scientists.
201-4dt staterooms 804dt Mcr100.5

Stores: 672dt [ship requires 56dt per month, 672dt for a year].
Cargo: 230.74dt

costs:
standard, no arch fees: Mcr 8955.210717
arch fees: Mcr89.552107
discount: Mcr 7164.168574

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 18:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon May 20 17:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Slow?
In-Reply-To: <1021914381.3845.11.camel@emssqalinuxalpha.sonusnet.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020520092010.009feec0@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020520092010.009feec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020520164809.009f4ec0@mindspring.com>

At 01:06 PM 5/20/02 -0400, you wrote:
>So Doug, Do you really think that cutlass training is the Imperial
>Marine's version of modern bayonet training?

The version of the Marines I wrote for GF did teach actual combat skills. 
Swordplay is a very body-position intensive sport, which is useful fro 
troops operating in battle dress.

Also, being able to settle arguments by taking a few training cutlasses 
(padded, but give a nasty shock) done to the gym and beating the crap out 
of each other is much better from a available manpower


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon May 20 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
Message-ID: <20020521004016.78196.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
People will try to have sex with androids, but rarely
with toasters.  

Hmm.  I think I've just proved that androids will
exist in the TU.
END QUOTE

Stupid PC's should have to make a saving throw to
avoid "electro-stimulation" <evil grin>

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://briefcase.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Briefcase
- Save your important files online for easy access!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 19:10:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon May 20 18:10:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #515 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <728qduouge88o819gosb5ii1p19db8srq5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20517.132123.1j3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

> On Sat, 11 May 2002 00:28:03 -0700, "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
> wrote:
>
>>You know, this is weird coming from me because I'm not into comics,
>>but I'd like to see a strip, or of comic books following the
>>adventures of a band of Travellers.  Heck, take a well known old
>>adventure like "The Traveller Adventure" and present is as a series of
>>comic books

Check out Freefall. <g>

http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/

True, the ship's engineer is a "Bowman's Wolf" an uplifted species
created recently by humans, rather than hundreds of thousands of years
ago by the Ancients, but she'll do for a Vargr. Especially recently. <g>

Schlock Mercenary isn't compatible with Traveller as far as tech goes.
But it's fun. http://www.schlockmercenary.com/

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 19:12:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon May 20 18:12:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <F106yfogkJXrRjbDt3H000123f4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20517.175513.6b2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ObTrav - Need a BIG natural disaster that doesn't involve near-C rocks?  
> Your PCs could witness the event from orbit (my personal preference) and 
> then get roped into the "recovery" efforts.
>      For those of you who run darker campaigns, some villain or government 
> could be trying to trigger such an event.  How they would trigger the 
> necessary landslide is naturally up to you, but my first guess would involve 
> several bore holes and timed nuclear detonations.

Nah, if the world is earthlike, find a *big* methane hydrate deposit,
and hit it in strategic locations with meson gun blasts.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 19:15:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon May 20 18:15:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <t6jtdusaho3prd0h5v3l6ta0rdr6op7sb6@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20517.175939.0C0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 12 May 2002 18:58:55 +0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
> <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Another, similarly rare, natural disaster would be represented by a
> particular large lake in Africa.  It seems that there is a volcanic
> vent which acts as a source for carbon dioxide.  Slowly, over very
> long periods of time, the cold water at the bottom of the lake has
> become supersaturated with the gas.  A thermocline has kept that
> supersaturated water isolated from the surface water with very little
> mixing of the two.
>
> Now, the problem is that the carbon dioxide-laden water is actually
> less dense than the surface water, but only the stability of the
> thermocline and comparative lack of disturbance has kept it trapped
> down there (and incidently getting even more saturated).
>
> Geologists have found that every few centuries there is some minor
> trigger event which causes saturated water to suddenly well up.  When
> that water reaches the surface, in one giant burp megatons of CO2 are
> released into the atmosphere in a matter of minutes.  The geological
> findings showed evidence of animals killed due to lack of oxygen more
> than two kilometers away.
>
> Today, the lake is bordered by a city of more than 100,000, and it's
> going to happen again.

You get a similar effect with sulfur oxides in some tropical lakes. The
sulfur is from anaerobic decay in the depths of the lake. 

BTW, either type of lake can *only* exist in areas where the surface
temp never hits near freezing temps. When water hits 4 C, it gets as
dense as it can get, and sinks to the bottom of the lake, forcing the
deep waters to the surface. 

So in temperate climates, you get at least annual turnover of the lake
water. 

Oh yeah, in the more northern parts of the temperate zone, you get
lakes where the bottom never gets *above* 4 C. Which has the
interesting effect that any dead bodies that sink into the lake never
come back up. At these low temps the decay bacteria that work on the
body *don't* generate gases that would float the body. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 19:18:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon May 20 18:18:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020512190321.009ee500@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20517.180743.5e4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 02:25 PM 5/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>         Kinda weird that people are looking for something that's going
>>to hit us from space when we've got so many other ways of which to die
>>right here on earth...
>
> The difference being, that when the Big One hits California, a lot of 
> Californians are going to die.
>
> When a 1 km asteroid hits the Earth, *everybody dies.*  Pasteurized planet.

Nah, not unless it's moving *really* fast.

5 to 10 km, maybe.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 19:21:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon May 20 18:21:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure Seed:  Mega-tsunamis
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIENACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20517.183320.9X9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>>
>>Today, the lake is bordered by a city of more than 100,000, and it's
>>going to happen again.
>
> This story has some of the earmarks of an urban legend.  Can you identify
> the city or point us to a news source?

It's for real. 

And there have been deaths (a village wiped out) by a similar situation
in another country some years back.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 19:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon May 20 18:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <200205140018.GEX00216@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20517.230500.3A2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> It might be Acrobat, since the end users are likely to be 
> able to get a copy of the reader regardless of their platform.

Nope. Try finding a PDF viewer for MS-DOS. Or for our C64 guru here. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 19:28:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Mon May 20 18:28:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Slow?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020520092010.009feec0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020520092010.009feec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <uc8jeu038f7q83qqh9snectc526ih69b6q@4ax.com>

On Mon, 20 May 2002 09:20:40 -0700, Douglas Berry
<gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Is it very slow, or am i dropping mail somewhere?

I was presuming that this was falloff related to Baycon.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 20:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon May 20 19:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <20517.230500.3A2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200205140018.GEX00216@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020520223139.0191a008@192.168.0.1>

At 11:05 PM 5/17/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
> > It might be Acrobat, since the end users are likely to be
> > able to get a copy of the reader regardless of their platform.
>Nope. Try finding a PDF viewer for MS-DOS. Or for our C64 guru here.

True...If you have to pick up a system...go for the penguin....

I've been trying to Mandrake 8.x to install on an old 266 Dell.
8.1 didn't like the big 5.25" inch hard drives and 8.2 won't even boot from 
the CD.
I'm not giving up yet...It will just have to wait a few days before I have 
time to tackle it again.


----------------------------------------------
"Function in disaster. Finish in style."
-- Lucy Madeira http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 22:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Mon May 20 21:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freefall
In-Reply-To: <20517.132123.1j3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000601c2007d$82103f10$0b01a8c0@duck>

> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
> Check out Freefall. <g>
> 
> http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/

Oh thank you, thank you, thank you!

I have gone back in the archives to read this thing from the beginning.
If this isn't the Traveller I ref'ed, I have never played Traveller!

Thank you so much for the URL.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 20 23:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon May 20 22:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Freefall
In-Reply-To: <000601c2007d$82103f10$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20020521053536.EFCE0279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/20/02 at 11:10 PM,  "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> said:

>> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
>> Check out Freefall. <g>
>> 
>> http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/

>Oh thank you, thank you, thank you!

I think we have another freefall fan. <g>

>I have gone back in the archives to read this thing from the
>beginning. If this isn't the Traveller I ref'ed, I have never played
>Traveller!

>Thank you so much for the URL.

Freefall is great! I've been reading it for a couple of years now, and
look forward to my thrice weekly fix.  However...as good as Freefall
is, although it has similarities to Traveller, I'd still love to see a
*Traveller* strip, but I don't suppose we have any Milton Caniffs on
the list...I know I couldn't do it.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 00:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Date: Mon May 20 23:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <20517.230500.3A2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205210933430.14726-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Fri, 17 May 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > It might be Acrobat, since the end users are likely to be 
> > able to get a copy of the reader regardless of their platform.
> Nope. Try finding a PDF viewer for MS-DOS. Or for our C64 guru here. 

Well, I think I have one for MS-DOS. The version is sadly something like
3.0, so it won't show new PDF files.

(It came on a game CD, I think I remember seeing one on Star Control 3
cd.)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 02:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue May 21 01:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC: May Competition Entry
In-Reply-To: <3CE98043.E40519EC@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3CEAAC6C.28825.31A6EF@localhost>

On 20 May 2002, at 18:01, Roseberry wrote:

> From the ISSDEC website:
> 
> >Design System: ??? 
> 
> High Guard v2.0 done by paper, pencil and calculator design system  
> 
> >        Craft: 1 x 100T Piker class Scout, 4 x 30T Datum class
> >        >Shuttles, 8 x 12.2T Tri class Lifeboats
> >Backups: 1 x Jump 1 Drive 1 x Model/4 Computer 1 x Bridge
> 
> None of this was in my original design.

Its from mine (which is reported correctly BTW). Looks like 
BuShips dropped the plans on the floor again.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 02:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue May 21 01:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  ER Freaks (was: Why not more robots?)
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEOFCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKACEDFHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Go Glenn!

That's a keeper sidebar if I ever I saw one !

> Get it sophs, and get it now:  there are no Droyne 
> plezhes......




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 02:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue May 21 01:57:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <20020521004016.78196.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEDFHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

James Ramsay wrote :
> QUOTE
> People will try to have sex with androids, but rarely
> with toasters.  
> 
> Hmm.  I think I've just proved that androids will
> exist in the TU.
> END QUOTE
> 
> Stupid PC's should have to make a saving throw to
> avoid "electro-stimulation" <evil grin>

Umm..., why would you want to avoid it ?
That's the best part!

Freakie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 02:59:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue May 21 01:59:18 2002
Subject: [TML] A request for assistance
In-Reply-To: <3CE9391E.8030809@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEDFHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Bruce Johnson wrote :
Sudragon@gmx.net writes:
> > 
> > 
> >Gentlesophs:
> > I have a request for any graphic designers on 
> > the list for a moment of help. I need to design 
> > a unit patch but don't have the correct  software.
> > the tricky bit is the writing round the edge of 
> > the patch
>
> 'Taint tricky at all, if you have Illustrator, 
> FreeHand or Corel Draw...each has a 'flow text 
> along a path' tool.

Heck, you can probably (dependng on the actual shape 
of your patch) do it in Microsoft Word as well.
Just use the WordArt tool. 

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 03:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue May 21 02:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: AI
References: <16c.dd0c316.2a1820dd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000401c200ac$3cdbae00$6f00a8c0@imogen>

LKW wrote:
> My two cents is that the first "android" will be built as a sex
> toy (and work is progressing along those lines). 

There have been a number of  B-movies  where  the  plot  revolves
around combat robots recycled  into  other  functions,  something
goes wrong and the robot reverts to  its  original  function  and
runs amok.  But if you are right then the reverse could be true:

    Seargent: "Sir, there are combat androids moving this way."

    LT: "Oh oh, we're gonna get f****d!"



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 03:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Tue May 21 02:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <20517.230500.3A2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEDGHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Leonard Erickson wrote :
> In mail you write:
> > It might be Acrobat, since the end users are likely to be
> > able to get a copy of the reader regardless of their
> > platform.
>
> Nope. Try finding a PDF viewer for MS-DOS. Or for our
> C64 guru here.

You can't find one for the Ohio Scientific, the Video Genie, or
the ZX-81 either, but none of those are valid arguments for not
using PDF.

After all, you can't buy many car accessories these days that
will work in a horse and buggy, or a naval auto-nav system that
will work in an unmodified 16thC galleon, which are the road and
naval equivalents of the systems you're discussing.

Of course, most modern text documents are bigger than what you
can fit in the memory of a standard DOS machine (only 16K,
originally, and only designed to handle a max of 64K) as well.

Basically, Windows or Linux/X capable machines are available for
minimal investment these days , probably less than you pay for
your phone line/internet connection per month, if not nothing.

Heck, if you lived close enough I could give you several to get
them out of my garage where they're doing nothing but gather
dust. Even the local school, whom I salvaged them for in the
first place, doesn't want them anymore, they have better
equipment given to them by a local company when it upgraded.

I have no problem with people keeping old machinery going for
nostalgic purposes, but it's  silly to try to use it for serious
work.

Trying to be involved in the net these days on machines like that
is like finding that your 1912 gas stove doesn't plug into your
wall socket, and then coming up with some weird way to get it
working anyway, and then complaining that it's not very
effficient.

Kudos to your inventiveness and effort, but minus ten millon for
practicality!

On the other hand you _can_ get a DOS PDF viewer. A quick
exercise of google-fu gave at least one valid link :

http://fc.capaccess.org/download/DOS/acrodos.exe

However, it's 2.5Mb in size so it definitely has to be a
non-standard DOS machine with an actual hard drive. <grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 04:05:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue May 21 03:05:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <m34rh6bsh0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20521.014306.6N5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:
>> 
>> If terraforming isn't required it might be possible to establish
>> "feral" crops.  That is, you plant wheat, fruit trees, vegetables,
>> or whatever, and just let them fend for themselves.  They won't be
>> incredibly productive, but they would represent a reserve food
>> supply that could supplement your more organised crops.
>
> The problem I see with this is that typically they are _really_
> unproductive.  Wild strawberries where I grew up (in strawberry
> country) were about 1/4" big.  Wild apples are typically small, hard
> and sour.  Wild wheat is grass.
>
> Obv. it's possible to live without agriculture (our distant ancestors
> did it, after all)--but I'd not want to attempt it...

Actually, paleolithic and early neolithic societies lived pretty well.
It *didn't* take all that much effort to get food most of the time.
Heck, the few remaining hunter-gatherer societies are in some pretty
damned marginal areas and they *still* work less hours a week than we do.

What agriculture did was trade some *damned* hard work for the
assurance that you'd be able to make it thru a "bad year" or two. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 04:07:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue May 21 03:07:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <E178p7S-0005Th-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20521.020834.4d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>> 
>>  "Why does Traveller have such a limited number of robots (this is not 
>> intended to start a "why are the computers so wrong in Traveller"
>> thread)?"
>> 
>> Mr. Kwon,
>> 
>> Because robots are toasters, they're ubiquitous and used for far more 
>> mundane purposes than we can imagine.  Robots are most definitely not
>> C3PO knock-offs, they are rarely limited to bipedal locomotion and can
>> only handle a limited number of tasks.  Building them that way makes
>> them cheap and easy to use, making them cheap and easy to use means
>> they'll be purchased.  An anthromophic robot that can act as your
>> valet costs too much. 
>>   Something that looks like a cross between a spider and a vacumn
>>   cleaner  that cleans your flat every day is not.  Everyone will have one.
>>      Robots are toasters.

Check out Heinlein's "The Door Into Summer". He's got the "robot as
appliance" in there. He also has CAD a good 25 years before it started
poping up in the real world. 


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 04:10:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue May 21 03:10:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <F931XvpFVjCRGryWtII00000b9e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20521.022737.3R8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>      "The problem that most SF writers have with AI is that they haven't 
> read Rodney Brooks.  There is an extremely enlightening paper by him, 
> entitled "Elephants Don't Play Chess".  The earlier response that said that 
> robots would be "toasters" is more along these lines."
>
>
> Mr. Kwon,
>
>      Exactly.  It's our old anthrocentrism at play again.  Robots must 
> "kinda" look and "kinda" behave like us.  If they don't, they're not robots. 
>   Yes, elephants don't play chess and helicopters don't look like birds, yet 
> they fly.


I recall a *common* robot that most of us have nearby. A book on
robotics from the mid 60s pointed out that this was indeed a robot.

It has one or more sensors, and one or more effectors. And carries out
programmed actions with its effectors in response to input from its
sensors. 

That's all that's required.

The robot? It's called a thermostat...

It'd be near magic to folks even a century back. But we pay it no attention.

Now add 3000 years of even the glacial progress found in the OTU...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 04:12:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue May 21 03:12:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <E179Bp0-00030C-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20521.023253.9G7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>
>>  "I do think we need some rules for this though.  At any TL of A or
>> higher, I'd say that all vehicles should have a innate skill level
>> (representing the autopilot)."
>> 
>> That points to the crux of my argument, would high-TL vehicles with 
>> built-in skills be viewed as "robots"?  Or would they just be the
>> latest in 1117 grav transportation?
>> We in the 21st century would think of them as robots, because they 
>> "think" and perform certain tasks.  The inhabitants of the 57th
>> century would simply think of them as grav cars, the skill level built
>> into them is comparable to our automobile accessories, like airbags or
>> an AM-FM CD player.
>
> True, there would be no obvious robot in such a vehicle, but it 
> makes sense to me that a TL 15 air raft would be easier to drive 
> than a TL 10 one and that a TL 10 ground car would be easier to 
> drive than a TL 6 one.  Personally, I'd call this automation rather 
> than robotics, but as you make clear, the differences between 
> these statement are merely ones of terminology.

Autopilots *are* robots.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 04:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Tue May 21 03:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOEGJCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Doug Berry wrote :-

> SF General on a Saturday night. Get there about 2200, stay until
> 0300.  Freaks, geeks, and drunks.  All sorts of fun!

Having worked in a number of major metropolitan emergency departments, I
think
your definition of "fun" isn't the same as mine.

Glenn Goffin wrote :-
> The PCs in my current campaign (cops) are about to take an injured person
> (and themselves, although their injuries are minor in comparison) to Our
> Lady of Mercy Hospital in downtown Credo, so I'll try to capture some this
> flavor -- maybe I'll visit the emergency room of one of the major San
> Francisco hospitals some evening soon.  Then again, maybe I'll just watch
an
> ER rerun.

I'm not a fan of any medical drama ; I like to forget about work when I get
home.

Having said that, what would happen to the PCs would be as follows :-

The PCs and the injured person in their care will receive a somewhat higher
triage priority than usual. Being members of the law enforcement community,
somewhat
more care will be taken in the assessment of the PCs.

~Optional bits...

If the injured person is under arrest, there may be some logistical problems
with getting tests performed, having the injured person go to theatre for
surgery, etc.
(A guard must be within easy access of any prisoner).

There may be opportunities for a prisoner to escape. Their accomplices, or
enemies may barge in
to try and free or harm the prisoner, respectively.

~Flavour elements...

The time of the day, and the day of the week will strongly influence
attendance,
as will the hospital's location. The day after pensions are paid is a peak
time, for example.

Typical presenters :-
- The "LOL in NAD" - elderly person who has had a dizzy turn or some other
vague complaint
- Young person with a drug overdose or drug withdrawal problem
- People with chronic (back, abdominal, etc.) pain with another acute
exacerbation
- Undifferentiated chest or abdominal pain. Headaches.
- The febrile child.

ER favourites, as told me by people that watch the show :-
- multitrauma victims with excruciating social problems ;
- young, otherwise fit people with amazingly rare medical problems,
presenting
 for the first time
- people with normally straightforward problems (e.g. myocardial infarction)
who
develop horrendous [iatrogenic] complications (e.g. stroke post
thrombolysis, cardiac rupture)



Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 04:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Tue May 21 03:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : Holocontrols and Forcefields
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEGKCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Wouldn't it be easier to use some sort of force-feedback glove?

The display can be projected onto the appropriate surfaces, a computer
tracks the operator's hand position and jiggers the inside of the
glove to provide the illusion of 'solidity'.

A variation on the theme includes direct cortical stimulation,
zapping the sensory strips in the parietal lobe either with pulsed
currents or high-field strength magnets.


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 05:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Tue May 21 04:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
Message-ID: <OFB729BE9B.16679653-ON42256BC0.003E454F@ko.com>

Greetings all

I am a long-time lurker on this list, but this is my first post. Please be
tolerant of any breaches of protocol that I might make, and if there is any
software-related gobbledigook attached to this message, please let me know.
I began lurking on the TML over two years ago (or thereabouts) and was
strongly dissuaded from getting actively involved because of a heated
debate about the nature of government in Heinlein's Starship Troopers.
Needless to say, it degenerated into personal attack and the scoring of
points off each other rather than actually remaining a lively and
interesting debate. The current culture of tolerance and acceptance of
contributions by others has encouraged me to get involved.

To me colonising a planet in another solar system depends on two issues:
1. Does FTL exist or not?
2. How easy is it to get up and down the gravity well?

If FTL exists, it is not necessary to adopt an "all the eggs in one basket"
approach - colonies can be built up over time, probably starting as a
result of some resource to exploit (or simply for settlement - government
policy, ideological reasons - take your pick). Initial workgangs would be
sent in, with robotic construction devices, pre-packaged and modular "ACME
colony starter kits" (press button, step back and watch instant mining
facility construct itself). If the colony is viable and profitable, it will
grow over time until perhaps it became a well populated self-supporting
place that has moved on from its original reasons for existence to being a
place to live in its own right, with hairdressers and lawyers, etc.

If FTL does not exist, all the eggs will be in one basket, and the venture
is much more risky. In this case, there will probably be an initial crew to
set up all the required infrastructure before the main colony mission
arrives. When the bulk of the colonists arrive, they will have homes, basic
industry, and food production already set up for them. I contend that in
the future, with increased automation, colonists are primarily going to be
the source of a viable gene-pool as well as being researchers, scientists,
and various other white-collar experts. I doubt there will actually be
people tilling the fields and working in the salt mines, other than as
managers. This assumption is predicated on the second issue, relating to
the expense of getting people up and down a gravity well - if we have not
had a revolution in interface technology, getting into orbit  will remain
relatively expensive and will only be for those contributing as an expert
to some big undertaking and the rich (if something goes wrong, the well-fed
rich will serve as an excellent short-term source of protein).

If there is a cheap and easy way to overcome the effects of gravity, all
bets are off, and you can indeed send the great unwashed to other worlds.
Penal colonies on Titan become feasible. Whatever the scenario, the
transport will probably be designed to form the skeleton of an orbital
base, and there will be a parallel process of establishing mining and
manufacturing in orbit.
This is dragging on, so I will curtail further discussion, except to say
that the most likely scenario might not in fact be to colonise planets, but
rather to build snug, safe artificial habitats close to raw materials - the
local star will provide an energy source. To a star-faring civilisation
planets could simply be regarded as having gravity wells too deep to be
viable.

Much of my thoughts have been shaped by Niven, Pournelle and Barnes'
'Legacy of Heorot', as well as Herbert's 'The Jesus Incident'. 2300 AD's
Aurore sourcebook is also quite insightful. Pournelle's 'Life among the
asteroids' and 'The next 10000 years' are interesting.

Regards

Clint Rynners



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 05:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue May 21 04:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields.
In-Reply-To: <20020521095709.55F63279C0@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020521042731.009ed510@mailhost.efn.org>

Traveller already has these things (though they may be forbidden DGP 
canon), known as holodynamic panels.  Fully reconfigurable.  Tactile 
feedback is provided by a precision-targeted array of tiny repulsors - 
pressor beams, for you new folks who have GURPS and not High Guard.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 05:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue May 21 04:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOEGJCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3CEADD08.3299.2CFA7C@localhost>

On 21 May 2002, at 20:51, Robert O'Connor wrote:

> ER favourites, as told me by people that watch the show :-
> - young, otherwise fit people with amazingly rare medical problems,
>   presenting for the first time

My experience of presenting at a major hospital (admittedly a 
major teaching hospital) with an amazingly rare medical problem 
was that it took days of increasing obscure diagnoises (with 
attendent increasingly invasive and comprehensive tests to try to 
isolate the "problem") until someone finally got it right. And when 
after a week they finally did figure out what was "wrong" it brought 
out every specialist for miles around with very long trains of interns 
to have a look. (Mind you the sight of an internationally renown 
professor taking a run up with his little knee hammer thingee only 
to have my leg remain stubbornly motionless was almost worth it).

ObTrav: The things you can inflict on characters in hospital. And if 
its rare, most doctors are not going to diagnoise it correctly.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 06:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue May 21 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
In-Reply-To: <3CEADD08.3299.2CFA7C@localhost>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOEGJCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020521080052.015d2488@192.168.0.1>

At 11:49 PM 5/21/2002 +1200, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>On 21 May 2002, at 20:51, Robert O'Connor wrote:
[snip]
>ObTrav: The things you can inflict on characters in hospital. And if
>its rare, most doctors are not going to diagnoise it correctly.

Our very own TML example....Penguin Boy.
His super power?  The ability to regrown his own spleen...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
                  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 06:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue May 21 05:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC: May Competition Entry
In-Reply-To: <3CEAAC6C.28825.31A6EF@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020521125650.73444.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, the Noble in me wants to blame a peon.  But I
don't have any peons available.

The Vargr in me wants to blame a co-worker and use the
opportunity to improve my place in the pecking order. 
As of now, I'm working alone.

The Solomani in me wants to blame some great
conspiracy, like Hiver manipulation.  Hey this might
work since I have never seen a Hiver.

But I think I'll take the Vilani approach...

"Sirs, with deepest regrets, we apologize for the
confusion.  You must understand that in an
organization this large, these things sometimes
happen."

Seriously, that is what I get for being in a hurry.  I
will look into this today and correct the errors.

Very sorry.
 Paul
--- Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:
> On 20 May 2002, at 18:01, Roseberry wrote:
> 
> > From the ISSDEC website:
> > 
> > >Design System: ??? 
> > 
> > High Guard v2.0 done by paper, pencil and
> calculator design system  
> > 
> > >        Craft: 1 x 100T Piker class Scout, 4 x
> 30T Datum class
> > >        >Shuttles, 8 x 12.2T Tri class Lifeboats
> > >Backups: 1 x Jump 1 Drive 1 x Model/4 Computer 1
> x Bridge
> > 
> > None of this was in my original design.
> 
> Its from mine (which is reported correctly BTW).
> Looks like 
> BuShips dropped the plans on the floor again.
> 
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
>   Scientific terms explained #1
>   "A long established fact"
>   = "I forgot to look up the reference"
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 07:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue May 21 06:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC: May Competition Entry
In-Reply-To: <20020521125650.73444.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CEAAC6C.28825.31A6EF@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CEAEFC9.14390.763CFE@localhost>

On 21 May 2002, at 5:56, Paul Walker wrote:

> But I think I'll take the Vilani approach...
> 
> "Sirs, with deepest regrets, we apologize for the
> confusion.  You must understand that in an
> organization this large, these things sometimes
> happen."

Actually, I'm sure there's an adventure in there somewhere. Two 
sets of plans get mixed up and an entire class of ships gets built to 
some horrendous (or brilliant) design.

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 07:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue May 21 06:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC: May Competition Entry
In-Reply-To: <3CEAEFC9.14390.763CFE@localhost>
References: <3CEAAC6C.28825.31A6EF@localhost>
 <3CEAEFC9.14390.763CFE@localhost>
Message-ID: <1021987118.6595.26.camel@emssqalinuxalpha.sonusnet.com>

On Tue, 2002-05-21 at 09:09, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> On 21 May 2002, at 5:56, Paul Walker wrote:
> > But I think I'll take the Vilani approach...
> > "Sirs, with deepest regrets, we apologize for the
> > confusion.  You must understand that in an
> > organization this large, these things sometimes
> > happen."
> Actually, I'm sure there's an adventure in there somewhere. Two 
> sets of plans get mixed up and an entire class of ships gets built to 
> some horrendous (or brilliant) design.

This actually explains "Ships of the Shattered Imperium"

-- 
-------------------------------------------
"Talk is cheap, pain says so much more..."
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 08:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue May 21 07:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC: May Competition Entry
In-Reply-To: <3CE98043.E40519EC@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020521141139.17568.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

I believe the error has been corrected.

Again, sorry for the error.

Paul



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 09:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Tue May 21 08:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields.
References: <200205201851.GRK04795@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <002901c2003a$0ca15cc0$0100a8c0@pentacle> <3CE95C29.7070207@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <003701c200d9$7b603100$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Monday, May 20, 2002 1:27 PM
Bruce Johnson said,

> Ding! You've run into a fairly serious quandry that UI designers have
> faced in developing the 'all-glass' cockpit.

Which is exactly why I can't see intangible holographic interfaces being on
most critical ships systems.  I like the reconfigurable holographic systems
ala S.O.M., but without tactile feedback I can't see them being really used
most places that matter.

I like the idea of either a tangible force field or an array of
repulsor/tractor beams, but I am trying to make sure I have myself covered
with semi plausible reasons it won't scale to have other useable force
fields or tractor/repulsor's.  I'm leaning either towards massive power
requirements or possible some sort of focusing element crystal that can't be
stably formed beyond a few carets in size limiting the feild/beam to very
small sizes/ranges.

<snippage>

> We're already working on polymer materials that can assume various
> shapes with application of the appropriate signals...current research is
> simply for making artificial 'muscles' for use in activators and small
> robotic devices.

Yeah, I was thinking about this, but having the control panel physically
remold itself doesn't have the right feel I'm looking for.  I'm holding onto
the idea for some alien systems though.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 09:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Tue May 21 08:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields.
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEFLDOAA.tml@jtas.org>
Message-ID: <003f01c200da$45f5c380$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Monday, May 20, 2002 1:30 PM
Colin said,

> Might a specialized electrical field stimulate the sense of touch so that
> you don't need any actual resistance, just a simulation?

I think it would be hard to generate a field that would only stimulate
pressure sensitive nerves or generate a pressure type response/signal. Plus
I would think the field would have to be tuned pretty tightly to an
individuals galvanic responses.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind." -
Humphrey Bogart


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 09:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Tue May 21 08:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : Holocontrols and Forcefields
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEGKCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <005601c200db$b2d2ea40$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Tuesday, May 21, 2002 3:56 AM
Robert O'Connor said,

> Wouldn't it be easier to use some sort of force-feedback glove?
>
> The display can be projected onto the appropriate surfaces, a computer
> tracks the operator's hand position and jiggers the inside of the
> glove to provide the illusion of 'solidity'.

That would work, but I don't like the added glove requirement.  I'd rather
keep the system as self contained within a console as possible, although it
could present great opportunities for the glove to be switched with non
functioning duplicate, or a starship that only had 1 glove and no spares.

> A variation on the theme includes direct cortical stimulation,
> zapping the sensory strips in the parietal lobe either with pulsed
> currents or high-field strength magnets.

This could be a nasty system to have go out of whack, and I would imagine a
lot of people would resist using it, just like most people dislike the
imaging systems that use a laser to paint the image on your retina, just
because the concept whigs them out.  Although you could also use such a
system to great effect combined with anti-hijack protocols.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"you can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of
conversation." -plato


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 09:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Tue May 21 08:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields.
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020521042731.009ed510@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <006901c200dc$3351d000$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Tuesday, May 21, 2002 4:30 AM
Kelly St.Clair said,

> Traveller already has these things (though they may be forbidden DGP
> canon), known as holodynamic panels.  Fully reconfigurable.  Tactile
> feedback is provided by a precision-targeted array of tiny repulsors -
> pressor beams, for you new folks who have GURPS and not High Guard.

I'll have to dig out my copy of S.O.M..  I didn't remember the tactile
feedback feature there, but am willing to use it.  I just need to make sure
I have good reasons why the technology of the repulsors & pressor beams
don't scale to other applications.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"How extravagant you are, throwing away women like that.  Some day they may
be scarce."-Captain Louis Renault, Casablanca



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 09:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue May 21 08:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOEGJCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020521082528.009ed080@mindspring.com>

At 08:51 PM 5/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Doug Berry wrote :-
>
> > SF General on a Saturday night. Get there about 2200, stay until
> > 0300.  Freaks, geeks, and drunks.  All sorts of fun!
>
>Having worked in a number of major metropolitan emergency departments, I
>think your definition of "fun" isn't the same as mine.

There have been many times when Kirsten had to take me into the ER for 
reactions to chemo or medications, and we were forced to wait for a few 
hours. I love to people watch, so I learned to enjoy the snippits of story 
as they wlaked/hobbled/rolled past me.

>Glenn Goffin wrote :-
> > The PCs in my current campaign (cops) are about to take an injured person
> > (and themselves, although their injuries are minor in comparison) to Our
> > Lady of Mercy Hospital in downtown Credo, so I'll try to capture some this
> > flavor -- maybe I'll visit the emergency room of one of the major San
> > Francisco hospitals some evening soon.  Then again, maybe I'll just watch
>an
> > ER rerun.
>
>I'm not a fan of any medical drama ; I like to forget about work when I get
>home.

Same reason why I also pick out the errors in war movies.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 09:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue May 21 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Slow?
In-Reply-To: <uc8jeu038f7q83qqh9snectc526ih69b6q@4ax.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020520092010.009feec0@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020520092010.009feec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020521084243.009edc60@mindspring.com>

At 08:24 PM 5/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 20 May 2002 09:20:40 -0700, Douglas Berry
><gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >Is it very slow, or am i dropping mail somewhere?
>
>I was presuming that this was falloff related to Baycon.

That's next weekend.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue May 21 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields.
In-Reply-To: <003701c200d9$7b603100$0100a8c0@pentacle>
References: <200205201851.GRK04795@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <002901c2003a$0ca15cc0$0100a8c0@pentacle>
 <3CE95C29.7070207@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020521084932.009ff640@mindspring.com>

At 08:09 AM 5/21/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > Ding! You've run into a fairly serious quandry that UI designers have
> > faced in developing the 'all-glass' cockpit.
>
>Which is exactly why I can't see intangible holographic interfaces being on
>most critical ships systems.  I like the reconfigurable holographic systems
>ala S.O.M., but without tactile feedback I can't see them being really used
>most places that matter.

ISTR that in the first models of the F-16A the control stick was completely 
immobile. Since it didn't actually move anything, it didn't have to move. 
The test pilots *hated* it with a passion. They needed the subtle feedback 
over actually moving the stick.  So the production models allow a small, 
completely useless motion of the stick.

Humans, at least, need that sort of feedback.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 09:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue May 21 08:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : Holocontrols and Forcefields
In-Reply-To: <005601c200db$b2d2ea40$0100a8c0@pentacle>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOCEGKCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020521115543.00b8a4d0@urbin.net>

At 08:25 AM 5/21/02 -0700, Thing wrote:
>On Tuesday, May 21, 2002 3:56 AM
>Robert O'Connor said,
> > Wouldn't it be easier to use some sort of force-feedback glove?
> > The display can be projected onto the appropriate surfaces, a computer
> > tracks the operator's hand position and jiggers the inside of the
> > glove to provide the illusion of 'solidity'.
>That would work, but I don't like the added glove requirement.  I'd rather
>keep the system as self contained within a console as possible, although it
>could present great opportunities for the glove to be switched with non
>functioning duplicate, or a starship that only had 1 glove and no spares.

Tie the glove to the console.

> > A variation on the theme includes direct cortical stimulation,
> > zapping the sensory strips in the parietal lobe either with pulsed
> > currents or high-field strength magnets.
>This could be a nasty system to have go out of whack, and I would imagine a
>lot of people would resist using it, just like most people dislike the
>imaging systems that use a laser to paint the image on your retina, just
>because the concept whigs them out.  Although you could also use such a
>system to great effect combined with anti-hijack protocols.

Fun to sabotage too...

Captain StrongChin: "Helm, evasive plan Gamma!"
Helm: "AAAAARRRRGGHHHHH!!!!"
Captain StrongChin: "Helm, the proper response is 'Aye, Aye Sir' followed 
by you taking the ship through evasive plan Gamma."
Helm: "The helm console just broke all my fingers, Sir.  We are not going 
anyway."

Stage direction:  Loud explosion type sounds followed by lots of red 
flashing lights.

XO: "We've just taken hits to the M-Drive and the Comm-Laser."
Captain StrongChin: "That's the last time I get a discount software upgrade 
from Long John Silver's Mostly Honest Ship's Computer Systems."

Stage direction: fade to black as "Prepare to be boarded, arrrhhh" is heard 
coming from the Comm Station...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 10:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue May 21 09:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields.
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3730@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I'll have to as well...I don't remember the tactile feedback part, but if true, then Traveller beat out the Final Fantasy movie by, what, 18 years or something like that?  :D

Jesse



I'll have to dig out my copy of S.O.M..  I didn't remember the tactile
feedback feature there, but am willing to use it.  I just need to make sure
I have good reasons why the technology of the repulsors & pressor beams
don't scale to other applications.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 10:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue May 21 09:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields.
In-Reply-To: <003701c200d9$7b603100$0100a8c0@pentacle>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1021999215.7515.ajackson@ping>

Thing writes:
> 
> I like the idea of either a tangible force field or an array of
> repulsor/tractor beams, but I am trying to make sure I have myself covered
> with semi plausible reasons it won't scale to have other useable force
> fields or tractor/repulsor's.

Just make it significantly heavier than creating armor with similar resistance
to impact.  Force fields only create canon problems if they're fairly strong.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 11:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue May 21 10:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020521080052.015d2488@192.168.0.1>
References: <3CEADD08.3299.2CFA7C@localhost>
 <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOEGJCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020521083823.009ed5e0@mindspring.com>

At 08:02 AM 5/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>At 11:49 PM 5/21/2002 +1200, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>>On 21 May 2002, at 20:51, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>[snip]
>>ObTrav: The things you can inflict on characters in hospital. And if
>>its rare, most doctors are not going to diagnoise it correctly.
>
>Our very own TML example....Penguin Boy.
>His super power?  The ability to regrown his own spleen...

Not to mention the fact I can get down to a platelet count of zero with no 
obvious effects.

The splenuncles don't do anything except annoy oncologists, but it's fun to 
have them.

ObTrav: The characters take a last second passenger aboard, who collapses 
just after jump. Examination show that he's been badly wounded. After a few 
days, he gets up, and seems to be completely healed! He refuses to discuss 
who wounded him or how he healed himself.

The people who shot him have only one clue, the characters' ship...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 11:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue May 21 10:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
Message-ID: <200205211728.GTE01533@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>Not to mention the fact I can get down to a platelet count 
>of zero with no obvious effects.
>

Ok, a twist on the old idea of "if you were a Traveller 
character..."

Now, you have to profile yourself as a Traveller character, 
but since we're in a Silly TU, (or is that Sylean), you have 
to be more along the lines of the adventurers in Mystery Men 
(or Flaming Carrot, for that matter).  Your appearance, 
superpowers, name, and "purpose".

Can you experience brain damage from trying to read all of 
your Traveller material in one night?

We already have Penguin Boy and his superpowers...
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 11:35:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue May 21 10:35:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
References: <3CEADD08.3299.2CFA7C@localhost> <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOEGJCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au> <5.1.0.14.2.20020521083823.009ed5e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CEA84D2.1050802@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> ObTrav: The characters take a last second passenger aboard, who 
> collapses just after jump. Examination show that he's been badly 
> wounded. After a few days, he gets up, and seems to be completely 
> healed! He refuses to discuss who wounded him or how he healed himself.

Except to tell them in a rather arrogant, spulchural voice that they are 
to call him 'Anubis'...;-P

Either that or he has this sword he always carries with him...



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 11:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matt Ashley)
Date: Tue May 21 10:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields
Message-ID: <20020521173536.33838.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com>

Subject: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields.
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Greetings.

I was thinking about adding a form of force fields to holo controls in my
universe, so that there would be some resistive force for holographic
buttons and sliders on a control panel.  I picture the main control panel
being a smooth surface with the control images being projected on top of it.
The field would provide small resistance out to a distance of 1cm or so
allowing some feedback.  I want the field week so that fast movement with
force behind it would pass through relatively unhindered, but a more
deliberate press would feel resistance.  I considering  handwaving some sort
of inverse square law, but maybe more so to restrict the force fields to
only these kinds of applications.  Something like cubing the power
requirements for doubling the distance of the projected force so it would be
feasible to have a field extending 1cm from a panels surface, but the power
and space requirements for the projection and focusing equipment for other
applications would be prohibitive.

Then again I keep thinking of modern touch screens that don't provide much
kinesthetic feedback when a button is tapped of a slider slid and wondering
if I should bother with the handwave.

Just thought I would run the concept up the flagpole and see what other
peeps thoughts where.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to
stick to possibilities; truth isn't." -Mark Twain

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Why not give the guys VR gloves that will provide tactile feedback when they are in the area of
the "controls"?

matt

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 11:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May 21 10:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
Message-ID: <3CEA40CE.3807.4F8DEC@localhost>


I am working out an adventure idea involving a mega corporation 
and stumbled across a problem.  Since a mega corporation is 
spread across the Imperium and would have revenues in the billions 
if not trillions of credits I am wondering about the value and or 
amount of stocks each corporation would have. 

Would they have lots and lots of stocks at a low value or would 
there be relatively low number of stocks with extremely high value?

Tim Reynolds


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 11:43:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May 21 10:43:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Assembly
Message-ID: <3CEA40CE.6991.4F8DFA@localhost>

Another Mega Corp question

Are all starships completely constructed and assembled in the 
same system, or are parts preassembled in different systems and 
shiped to assembly locations.  

This is an important questions because if they are constructed at 
different locations then we have need of whole new size of space 
transports that can carry not 100s of tons, but 1000s tons.  There 
would also be delays in construction time.  

(I look around making sure everything is secured)

Finally these large ships would be great pray for pirates.  A pirate 
may not risk his life for passengers, or 100 tons of wool.  But for a 
chance to secure whole new drives or weapons and 
communications equipment might be worth especially if you need 
them. 

Tim Reynolds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 11:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May 21 10:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields.
Message-ID: <1ac.28eb7be.2a1be1da@cs.com>

--part1_1ac.28eb7be.2a1be1da_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 5/21/02 10:17:51 AM Central Daylight Time, 
thing@moonwise.com writes:


> On Monday, May 20, 2002 1:27 PM
> Bruce Johnson said,
> 
> > Ding! You've run into a fairly serious quandry that UI designers have
> > faced in developing the 'all-glass' cockpit.
> 
> Which is exactly why I can't see intangible holographic interfaces being on
> most critical ships systems.  I like the reconfigurable holographic systems
> ala S.O.M., but without tactile feedback I can't see them being really used
> most places that matter.
> 
> I like the idea of either a tangible force field or an array of
> repulsor/tractor beams, but I am trying to make sure I have myself covered
> with semi plausible reasons it won't scale to have other useable force
> fields or tractor/repulsor's.  I'm leaning either towards massive power
> requirements or possible some sort of focusing element crystal that can't be
> stably formed beyond a few carets in size limiting the feild/beam to very
> small sizes/ranges.
> 
> <snippage>
> 
> > We're already working on polymer materials that can assume various
> > shapes with application of the appropriate signals...current research is
> > simply for making artificial 'muscles' for use in activators and small
> > robotic devices.
> 
> Yeah, I was thinking about this, but having the control panel physically
> remold itself doesn't have the right feel I'm looking for.  I'm holding onto
> the idea for some alien systems though.
> 
> G.D.D.
> 

One alternate possibility for consideration: a very slight layer of 
electro-reactive gel within the holographic membrane on the control panel. 
This gel would normally feel like the gel in the ergonomic 
mousepads/wrist-rests that are out, but in a sheet-like form. When a minute 
electrical charge is applied to the gel, it "firms-up"; applied properly, the 
control-panel user should be able to 'feel' the edges of the holographic 
controls displayed in the panel. Sensors in the gel would be able to detect 
finger motion and pressure, allowing for control usage. This would also allow 
the electro-gel to reflect a resistance in the direction a slide control 
might move, providing feedback. Also, since the gel can be firmed-up 
selectively, different controls "in" the panel could have different textures, 
allowing use without having to see where and what your fingers are doing. 
This is the way I've always modeled the holocontrol panels IMTU.


Respects,
Doug Grimes
--------------------------
'We put poisons in our water and air to weed out the weak! We detonate 
fission bombs in our only biosphere! We nailed our god to a stick! Don't f**k 
with the human race!'
                --attributed to General Nikolai Nikolai at a galactic summit
If you came in search of information, enlightenment, or anything useful, you 
probably need to rethink how you use the internet.
                --Aaron Williams, creator of 'Nodwick'



--part1_1ac.28eb7be.2a1be1da_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 5/21/02 10:17:51 AM Central Daylight Time, thing@moonwise.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">On Monday, May 20, 2002 1:27 PM
<BR>Bruce Johnson said,
<BR>
<BR>&gt; Ding! You've run into a fairly serious quandry that UI designers have
<BR>&gt; faced in developing the 'all-glass' cockpit.
<BR>
<BR>Which is exactly why I can't see intangible holographic interfaces being on
<BR>most critical ships systems. &nbsp;I like the reconfigurable holographic systems
<BR>ala S.O.M., but without tactile feedback I can't see them being really used
<BR>most places that matter.
<BR>
<BR>I like the idea of either a tangible force field or an array of
<BR>repulsor/tractor beams, but I am trying to make sure I have myself covered
<BR>with semi plausible reasons it won't scale to have other useable force
<BR>fields or tractor/repulsor's. &nbsp;I'm leaning either towards massive power
<BR>requirements or possible some sort of focusing element crystal that can't be
<BR>stably formed beyond a few carets in size limiting the feild/beam to very
<BR>small sizes/ranges.
<BR>
<BR>&lt;snippage&gt;
<BR>
<BR>&gt; We're already working on polymer materials that can assume various
<BR>&gt; shapes with application of the appropriate signals...current research is
<BR>&gt; simply for making artificial 'muscles' for use in activators and small
<BR>&gt; robotic devices.
<BR>
<BR>Yeah, I was thinking about this, but having the control panel physically
<BR>remold itself doesn't have the right feel I'm looking for. &nbsp;I'm holding onto
<BR>the idea for some alien systems though.
<BR>
<BR>G.D.D.
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>One alternate possibility for consideration: a very slight layer of electro-reactive gel within the holographic membrane on the control panel. This gel would normally feel like the gel in the ergonomic mousepads/wrist-rests that are out, but in a sheet-like form. When a minute electrical charge is applied to the gel, it "firms-up"; applied properly, the control-panel user should be able to 'feel' the edges of the holographic controls displayed in the panel. Sensors in the gel would be able to detect finger motion and pressure, allowing for control usage. This would also allow the electro-gel to reflect a resistance in the direction a slide control might move, providing feedback. Also, since the gel can be firmed-up selectively, different controls "in" the panel could have different textures, allowing use without having to see where and what your fingers are doing. This is the way I've always modeled the holocontrol panels IMTU.
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Respects,
<BR>Doug Grimes
<BR>--------------------------
<BR>'We put poisons in our water and air to weed out the weak! We detonate fission bombs in our only biosphere! We nailed our god to a stick! Don't f**k with the human race!'
<BR>                --attributed to General Nikolai Nikolai at a galactic summit
<BR>If you came in search of information, enlightenment, or anything useful, you probably need to rethink how you use the internet.
<BR>                --Aaron Williams, creator of 'Nodwick'
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_1ac.28eb7be.2a1be1da_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 12:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue May 21 11:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program (was mis-jump question)
In-Reply-To: <m34rhfmv1l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20510.145009.9u2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <20510.145009.9u2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020521142604.0751dc20@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:40 PM 5/10/2002, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>Essentially, xdy is simply another method of specifying a numeric 
>constant--only it's a constant which varies from invocation to invocation.

Hmmm ... wouldn't it be better to make "d" a binary operator with a 
priority equal to exponentiation?

Thus "d" would be the "dice" operator, and "x d y" returns a number equal 
to the sum of x random numbers in the range of 1 to y.  The operator should 
throw an error if x or y (or both) are negative.  The result should be 0 if 
either x or y or both are zero.  If x is non-integer, result should be 
int(x)dy + ((x-int(x)) * 1dy).  If y is an integer, the random numbers 
should be equally distributed integers between 1 and y (inclusive); if y is 
non-integer, the random numbers should be equally distributed real numbers 
of the same precision as y, between 1 and y (inclusive).

This means that 1d3 could have result values of 1, 2, or 3 (with equal 
probability), while 1d3.5 could have result values 1, 1.1, 1.2 ... 3.4, or 
3.5.  This also means that 2.5d6 is the same as 2d6 + 1d6/2.

With a priority equal to exponentiation, most ordinary uses of the operator 
would be parsed as expected when multiplication and division were involved 
(eg, "2d6*10" parses as (2d6)*10 and NOT 2d(6*10) and "2d6+1" parses as 
(2d6)+1 and NOT 2d(6+1).).  Parentheses would still be needed for more 
complex expressions (eg, 10*2d6+1 would parse as (10*(2d6))+1 instead of 
the way most gamers would expect 10*(2d6+1).)


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 12:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue May 21 11:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program (was mis-jump question)
In-Reply-To: <m34rhfmv1l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20510.145009.9u2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <20510.145009.9u2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020521142604.0751dc20@mail.qrc.com>

At 07:40 PM 5/10/2002, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>Essentially, xdy is simply another method of specifying a numeric 
>constant--only it's a constant which varies from invocation to invocation.

Hmmm ... wouldn't it be better to make "d" a binary operator with a 
priority equal to exponentiation?

Thus "d" would be the "dice" operator, and "x d y" returns a number equal 
to the sum of x random numbers in the range of 1 to y.  The operator should 
throw an error if x or y (or both) are negative.  The result should be 0 if 
either x or y or both are zero.  If x is non-integer, result should be 
int(x)dy + ((x-int(x)) * 1dy).  If y is an integer, the random numbers 
should be equally distributed integers between 1 and y (inclusive); if y is 
non-integer, the random numbers should be equally distributed real numbers 
of the same precision as y, between 1 and y (inclusive).

This means that 1d3 could have result values of 1, 2, or 3 (with equal 
probability), while 1d3.5 could have result values 1, 1.1, 1.2 ... 3.4, or 
3.5.  This also means that 2.5d6 is the same as 2d6 + 1d6/2.

With a priority equal to exponentiation, most ordinary uses of the operator 
would be parsed as expected when multiplication and division were involved 
(eg, "2d6*10" parses as (2d6)*10 and NOT 2d(6*10) and "2d6+1" parses as 
(2d6)+1 and NOT 2d(6+1).).  Parentheses would still be needed for more 
complex expressions (eg, 10*2d6+1 would parse as (10*(2d6))+1 instead of 
the way most gamers would expect 10*(2d6+1).)


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 12:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May 21 11:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <20020521160305.7A8C4279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17AEag-0006a3-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

> > Obv. it's possible to live without agriculture (our distant
> > ancestors did it, after all)--but I'd not want to attempt it...
> 
> Actually, paleolithic and early neolithic societies lived pretty well.
> It *didn't* take all that much effort to get food most of the time.
> Heck, the few remaining hunter-gatherer societies are in some pretty
> damned marginal areas and they *still* work less hours a week than we
> do.
> 
> What agriculture did was trade some *damned* hard work for the
> assurance that you'd be able to make it thru a "bad year" or two. 

Also, you can support a whole heck of a lot more people on an 
square mile of farmland than a square mile of land used for hunting 
and gathering.

OTOH, both of those generalizations don't work everywhere, 
specifically I'm thinking of our area (the pacific northwest).  The 
local Native American tribes up in Oregon and Washington manage 
to have relatively high populations and were verging on chiefdom-
level societies and they lived as hunter-gatherers.  The difference is 
that the yearly salmon migration combined with the remarkable 
abundance of fruits, berries and nuts meant that their food 
production yields were almost equal to premodern farming.

It occurs to me that some clever genetic engineers could likely 
transform the more fertile portions of a newly opened colony world 
into a place where hunting and gathering was *very* easy and 
pleasant.  Items like the beefsteak root from Clifford Simak's _Time 
is the Simplest Thing_ definitely comes to mind, as do large tasty 
critters with all the survival instincts of the Dodo (naturally you'd 
need to avoid anything else that could eat these things)  

I really like the idea of a TL 10 society where the subsistence base 
is hunting and gathering.  You could even have a TL 15 world like 
that, but I'd assume that most of the work would then be done by 
robots.  I'll definitely use this idea someplace.

Comments?

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 12:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May 21 11:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : Holocontrols and Forcefields
In-Reply-To: <20020521160305.7A8C4279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17AEqR-00014X-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

"Thing" <thing@moonwise.com> wrote:

> Robert O'Connor said,
> 
> > A variation on the theme includes direct cortical stimulation,
> > zapping the sensory strips in the parietal lobe either with pulsed
> > currents or high-field strength magnets.
> 
> This could be a nasty system to have go out of whack, and I would
> imagine a lot of people would resist using it, just like most people
> dislike the imaging systems that use a laser to paint the image on
> your retina, just because the concept whigs them out.  Although you
> could also use such a system to great effect combined with anti-hijack
> protocols.

Yep, I now have a vivid image of a failed hijacking attempt where 
the crew walk onto the bridge and find the hijacker wearing a pair of 
shoulder length feedback gloves and vainly attempting to dodge 
punches to the face from each of hir arms.

Of course, the version of a General Protection Fault on that system 
could easily be a right hook to the chin, so it might not be all that 
good and idea after all.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 13:01:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May 21 12:01:15 2002
Subject: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields.
In-Reply-To: <20020521160305.7A8C4279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17AEqX-00014X-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

"Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org> wrote:

> Traveller already has these things (though they may be forbidden DGP
> canon), known as holodynamic panels.  Fully reconfigurable.  Tactile
> feedback is provided by a precision-targeted array of tiny repulsors -
> pressor beams, for you new folks who have GURPS and not High Guard.

They are perfectly acceptable to reference (and really cool), 
holodynamic panels are from the MT Referee's Manual (ie one of 
the MT core books put out by GDW).  

-John Snead sneadj@mindpsring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 13:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue May 21 12:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Assembly
In-Reply-To: <3CEA40CE.6991.4F8DFA@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1022007831.1051.ajackson@ping>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net writes:
> Another Mega Corp question
> 
> Are all starships completely constructed and assembled in the 
> same system, or are parts preassembled in different systems and 
> shiped to assembly locations.  

Depends on the shipyard.  Major components (hull, drive, etc) are probably
constructed on site; smaller components (electronics, etc) might not be, and
it's quite possible that parts for the major components are constructed
elsewhere and then transported.
> 
> This is an important questions because if they are constructed at 
> different locations then we have need of whole new size of space 
> transports that can carry not 100s of tons, but 1000s tons.  There 
> would also be delays in construction time.

Multi-kiloton freighters are nothing new in Traveller.
> 
> (I look around making sure everything is secured)
> 
> Finally these large ships would be great pray for pirates.  A pirate 
> may not risk his life for passengers, or 100 tons of wool.  But for a 
> chance to secure whole new drives or weapons and 
> communications equipment might be worth especially if you need 
> them.

Well, such ships are probably moving from class A starport to class A starport,
making it unlikely that they're ever outside of the patrol area of significant
system defenses.  This makes them a very hard target to actually hit.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 13:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue May 21 12:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <3CEA40CE.3807.4F8DEC@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020521195329.9CC46279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/21/02 at 12:42 PM,  timothyreynolds@earthlink.net said:



>I am working out an adventure idea involving a mega corporation  and
>stumbled across a problem.  Since a mega corporation is  spread
>across the Imperium and would have revenues in the billions  if not
>trillions of credits I am wondering about the value and or  amount of
>stocks each corporation would have. 

>Would they have lots and lots of stocks at a low value or would 
>there be relatively low number of stocks with extremely high value?

Yes! <g>

Tim, given the way the OTU is set up, I'd suspect that the control of
Megacorps was by a quite small collection of people...mostly noblity.
However, I'd also suspect that there is a low priced class of
*non-voting* stock that is very widely owned by individuals and,
especially, governments and pension funds. 

IMTU, the big Megacorps are holding companies with a large number of
regional divisions. For example, Ling Standard Products is an Imperium
(and beyond) wide umbrella company with control of hundreds of sector
and subsector corporations that use LSP as part of their names. Each
of these sub-corporations has it's own product base and organizational
personality..although they do share some things with the MegaCorp LSP.
Thus, in Reaver's Deep the local LSP has the *very* nasty reputation
of lying, cheating, stealing, sabotage and doing virturally anything
that will increase its profits, power and position.  Meanwhile, the
LSP in the Spinward Marches has the reputation of being an honest,
"green", corporation that forgoes high profits for high quality of
life and service to the subsector.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 13:58:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue May 21 12:58:06 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC: May Competition Entry
Message-ID: <3CEAA61C.C98CE106@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>
Paul Walker writes:
>"Sirs, with deepest regrets, we apologize for the
>confusion.  You must understand that in an
>organization this large, these things sometimes
>happen."

Don't sweat it. Things do happen. In this instance however, I clearly
think that the Zhodani are responsible. NUKE CHRONOR!

AMV writes:
>Actually, I'm sure there's an adventure in there somewhere. Two 
>sets of plans get mixed up and an entire class of ships gets built to 
>some horrendous (or brilliant) design.

Hmmm.

I'll start in. How about a TL12[GTL10] 20,000dt hull, partially
streamlined, Box shaped. NEXT...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue May 21 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <3CEA40CE.3807.4F8DEC@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020521200110.84802.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>

--- timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:
> 
> 
> I am working out an adventure idea involving a mega
> corporation 
> and stumbled across a problem.  Since a mega
> corporation is 
> spread across the Imperium and would have revenues
> in the billions 
> if not trillions of credits I am wondering about the
> value and or 
> amount of stocks each corporation would have. 
> 
> Would they have lots and lots of stocks at a low
> value or would 
> there be relatively low number of stocks with
> extremely high value?
> 
> Tim Reynolds
> 
  >>
  Any corp worthy of the 'mega-' title will probably
trade on the local exchanges(assuming that the planet
has a sufficient pop-base and law level) at almost all
A-ports, and most B's.

  Interesting thought: A competitor begins a
stock-manipulation on a mega's stock at a B-port
slightly off the beaten track.....then uses fast
couriers to spread the rumor as far as possible.

  It would be completly illegal---if the perps get
caught......

   MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 14:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue May 21 13:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers Aide/Type S Scout?
Message-ID: <3CEAAB29.92FAA48B@mail.cswnet.com>

I was looking at the submissions site. Is there really gonna be a
Travellers Aide PDF thats all about Type S scouts? That one I would lay
money down for.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 14:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May 21 13:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
Message-ID: <20020521.132415.-125035.0.generalturokan@juno.com>

Greetings Lurker Clint,

On Tue, 21 May 2002 13:20:38 +0200 "Clint Rynners" <crynners@afr.ko.com>
writes:
> 
> I am a long-time lurker on this list, but this is my first post. 
Please be
> tolerant of any breaches of protocol that I might make, and if there 
is any
> software-related gobbledigook attached to this message, please let 
> me know. I began lurking on the TML over two years ago 

Please stand by for positive identiscan.

Place your right thumb in the center of your screen, and cough.

Thank you,

If you would have hacked up a furball, you would have been shot.

We were checking for Vargr and Aslani spies! 

You are now cleared for passage.

Have a nice day.

General Turokan


..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 14:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue May 21 13:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers Aide/Type S Scout?
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3738@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

What's the link to that?  I don't see that at the site....
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Roseberry [mailto:rosebee@mail.cswnet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 1:17 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Travellers Aide/Type S Scout?


I was looking at the submissions site. Is there really gonna be a
Travellers Aide PDF thats all about Type S scouts? That one I would lay
money down for.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 15:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May 21 14:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <3CEA40CE.3807.4F8DEC@localhost>
Message-ID: <B9100C16.5C4F3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/21/02 10:42 AM, timothyreynolds@earthlink.net at
timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> 
> I am working out an adventure idea involving a mega corporation
> and stumbled across a problem.  Since a mega corporation is
> spread across the Imperium and would have revenues in the billions
> if not trillions of credits I am wondering about the value and or
> amount of stocks each corporation would have.
> 
> Would they have lots and lots of stocks at a low value or would
> there be relatively low number of stocks with extremely high value?

That depends on the company.  It also depends on what kind of stocks they
issue.  Do the have common or preferred stocks?  And given the variations in
relative markets and the speed of travel, stock will probably have to be
local in order for there to be meaningful trace in them.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 15:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue May 21 14:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers Aide/Type S Scout?
References: <3CEAAB29.92FAA48B@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c20110$e802fe50$b2d593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> I was looking at the submissions site. Is there really gonna be a
> Travellers Aide PDF thats all about Type S scouts? That one I would lay
> money down for.
> 
>
There is; we just need someone to write it!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 15:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue May 21 14:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
References: <200205211728.GTE01533@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003801c20111$56b0bbd0$b2d593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

> We already have Penguin Boy and his superpowers...


I won an award at the University this year for "Sarcasm and Cynicism beyond
the call of duty".

Does that count?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 15:53:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue May 21 14:53:08 2002
Subject: [TML] News report....
Message-ID: <004001c20111$9ce4b020$b2d593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>

ATVS Help Armed Forces Climb Harsh Terrain in Search of the Enemy
   
   With search and destroy missions being carried out in the mountains of
   Afghanistan as recently as last night, the Allied Forces' fighting
   tactics have had to adapt to some of the world's most rugged and
   unpredictable terrain. Intelligence and mobility have become key
   factors in the conflict, causing Allied Forces to look for alternate
   means of transportation to replace massive tanks, Humvees and other
   ground systems. The one ground vehicle that has seen substantial
   action is the same vehicle millions of Americans use every day for
   hunting, farming and weekend trail riding - the all-terrain vehicle
   (ATV).
   
   You can reach the story directly by going to
   http://www.newstream.com/cgi-bin/display_story.cgi?6030

I got completely the wrong stick here, let alone the wrong end!

Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-To-The-Masses
www.TravellerRPG.com/MJD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 15:55:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue May 21 14:55:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <OFB729BE9B.16679653-ON42256BC0.003E454F@ko.com>
References: <OFB729BE9B.16679653-ON42256BC0.003E454F@ko.com>
Message-ID: <20020522075139.B8264@freeman.little-possums.net>

Clint Rynners wrote:
[Lots of stuff I agree with for FTL travel]

[... non-FTL colonisation...]
> This assumption is predicated on the second issue, relating to the
> expense of getting people up and down a gravity well - if we have
> not had a revolution in interface technology, getting into orbit
> will remain relatively expensive

I'd go further and say that if we have not had a revolution in
interface technology, then interstellar colonisation will be
essentially impossible.  Getting to even the nearest stars takes
millions of times more energy than getting into orbit and/or millions
of times longer.

In energy and time terms, the cost of getting into orbit is roughly as
significant compared with the cost of interstellar travel, as getting
out of bed compares to intercontinental flight.


> To a star-faring civilisation planets could simply be regarded as
> having gravity wells too deep to be viable.

To a star-faring civilization, the energy cost of gravity wells is
absolutely miniscule.  Just to get from here to our nearest stellar
neighbour in a century requires an energy expenditure of at least
10^14 joules per kilogram.  Even with our own inefficient chemical
rockets, the cost of getting that same kilogram into orbit is about a
hundred thousand times less.

If you're willing to wait ten thousand years for the first colony ship
to arrive, the energy costs of gravity wells start to become a
noticeable (but still very minor) portion of the cost of interstellar
travel.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 16:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue May 21 15:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
In-Reply-To: <003801c20111$56b0bbd0$b2d593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
References: <200205211728.GTE01533@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <003801c20111$56b0bbd0$b2d593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
Message-ID: <1022018465.2321.4.camel@emssqalinuxalpha.sonusnet.com>

On Tue, 2002-05-21 at 17:48, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > We already have Penguin Boy and his superpowers...
> I won an award at the University this year for "Sarcasm and Cynicism beyond
> the call of duty".

That's just another day on the job in the wonderful world of Networking
SQA... :-)

>
-- 
-------------------------------------------
"Talk is cheap, pain says so much more..."
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 16:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue May 21 15:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers Aide/Type S Scout?
Message-ID: <memo.607876@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <001c01c20110$e802fe50$b2d593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
>> I was looking at the submissions site. Is there really gonna be a
>> Travellers Aide PDF thats all about Type S scouts? That one I would lay
>> money down for.
>> 
>There is; we just need someone to write it!

Hmmm... that could be fun. Development of design, standard and 
non-standard equipment loadouts, different uses to which they've been put, 
some famous incidents from their past... how they are modified for 
different purposes (exploration, colonisation, first contact, etc.)...

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 16:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Tue May 21 15:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
In-Reply-To: <200205211728.GTE01533@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205211542540.22352-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 21 May 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Douglas Berry says
> >Not to mention the fact I can get down to a platelet count 
> >of zero with no obvious effects.
> >
> 
> Ok, a twist on the old idea of "if you were a Traveller 
> character..."
> 
> Now, you have to profile yourself as a Traveller character, 
> but since we're in a Silly TU, (or is that Sylean), you have 
> to be more along the lines of the adventurers in Mystery Men 
> (or Flaming Carrot, for that matter).  Your appearance, 
> superpowers, name, and "purpose".
> 
> Can you experience brain damage from trying to read all of 
> your Traveller material in one night?
> 
> We already have Penguin Boy and his superpowers...

Kiri Aradia Morgan, aka "Luciferia" can cause innocent mailing lists to
burst into flame with a single post.

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 16:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue May 21 15:52:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C373A@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Kiri Aradia Morgan, aka "Luciferia" can cause innocent mailing lists to
burst into flame with a single post.

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com



Jesse DeGraff, aka "Pyro" can cause innocent kitchens to burst into flame with a single meal.
Jesse  :)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 16:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue May 21 15:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020521155110.009f0470@mailhost.efn.org>

I still remember an incident in the old TML PBeM that really gave me the 
feel of high(er)-tech medicine:

My character suffered severe burns to one side of his face as a result of a 
glancing hit from a laser rifle (which partially melted his helmet).  The 
ship's doctor, while examining the casualties in sick bay, made the 
observation that if he had the resources of a full hospital, he'd prefer to 
simply pull the damaged eye and replace it with one from the tissue bank; 
but since that wasn't an option here, he'd have to treat the injury another 
way.

The notion that TL 14-15 doctors might swap out eyes and other organs as 
easily as TL 8 physicians order units of blood or insert pins in broken 
bones has stuck with me, because it neatly combines the "magical" with the 
believable.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 17:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue May 21 16:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Arba Landgrab
Message-ID: <F248jsCnQ13eZZfm95L00001bcb@hotmail.com>

Mr. Roseberry,

     Just a quick note to let you know how much I enjoyed the sections of 
the Arba Landgrab you have posted so far.  I am sure the rest of the 
material will be just as good.
     Not every post can disappear as quickly into the TML Black Hole of 
Quality as your Arba posts did.  Well done, sir!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 17:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue May 21 16:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TNS at JTAS
Message-ID: <F104GAFcsi9EG1Grmmr00005575@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Seeing how the TML slowed somewhat, I'll attempt to bootstrap a thread 
into existence.  What would the immediate and long term results be of a 
break up of the Solomani Confederation?
     It is a completely unwarranted assumption on my part, but the 
meta-story in the GURPS Traveller timeline "seems" to be hinting at rather 
"interesting times" along the Solomani Rim.
     Previous TNS snippets, plus the GT:RoF sourcebook, have outlined 
increased political tensions on both sides of the cease fire line.  The 
Confederation is currently fumbling the succession of Kulkulcan(sp), a 
hi-pop world bested in a trade battle with other worlds in it's subsector.  
The Imperium is still wrestling with Solomani sympathizers in it's 
territories, not to mention a steadily increasing wrangling among the local 
nobility up to the Archducal level.
     After a SolSec purge of Confederation naval formations, the Imperium 
has seen a steady flow of defectors cross the cease fire line, so much so in 
fact that the authorities have had to confirm that fact rather than brush it 
aside.
     Most recently, an emergency Red Zone announcement has been made, with a 
system being placed off limits by orders of the Imperial naval command.  
While the system in question is rather distant from the cease fire line, one 
wonders just what the IN is doing in the area that it wishes to hide.
     So, if the Confederation did fracture, ala Yugoslavia, what sort of 
situations do you see developing?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 18:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Freelance Traveller)
Date: Tue May 21 17:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [irc] #traveller topical talk #1 - Aliens
Message-ID: <9qnleuk5g2rqcmrka8ctjjcade83cg1d16@4ax.com>

#traveller topical talk #1 : Aliens

A discussion on near-human and non-human sophonts from non-Traveller game
supplements and non-gaming literature - which ones would you like to see in
Traveller, and why do you think they'd be a good fit for Traveller.

Date and time: Friday, May 24, 2002, 21:00 (9:00 PM) EDT.  Because
prospective participants are scattered all over the world, I urge you to
check your local equivalent using the converter at
http://www.timezoneconverter.com/cgi-bin/tzc.tzc.  EDT is United States
Eastern time, the time zone for New York, Boston, and Washington.

Where:         Undernet IRC network, channel #traveller.

What should you do beforehand?

Find a race that would interest you.  Read about it, keeping the topic in
mind - how and why you think it would fit into Traveller.  Be prepared to
discuss specific attributes, and to provide enough background on the race
so that others can comment.  Optionally, have a writeup prepared,
compatible with Traveller. Part of what you should be prepared to discuss
is how to play the alien as a PC, or why it needs to be limited to NPC
status.

If the chat goes well, it is my intent to put the chat log up on Freelance
Traveller - nicks only, no revelation of identity - along with any writeups
that are made available (those will be published under real names, as all
Freelance Traveller articles are).



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 18:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Freelance Traveller)
Date: Tue May 21 17:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 19 May 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <5tnleushvm5iv3ighkdf099p3cc5d4la2o@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - Our tests and feedback indicated that the search page works acceptably.
   We have therefore made it available site-wide. 

 - Added a couple of websites to the list of websites in the Information
   Center. 

 - Added a page of information concerning the #traveller Undernet IRC
   channel. 

 - Added reviews in Critics' Corner for Travellers' Aide #1, by Mark Urbin,
   Matthew Bond, and Megan Robertson.

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the feedback form at .../infocenter/feedbackform.html.
Freelance Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to
visit our site and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our
existence possible.



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 18:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue May 21 17:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
References: <20020521190407.AB9ED279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c20126$0c0a93c0$a05d8690@computer>

> From: sneadj@mindspring.com
> I really like the idea of a TL 10 society where the subsistence base
> is hunting and gathering.  You could even have a TL 15 world like
> that, but I'd assume that most of the work would then be done by
> robots.  I'll definitely use this idea someplace.

I've used high-tech societies based on TL 0 horticulture.  Basically they're
very bio-tech oriented.  Once you develop a new plant or animal species, you
raise them the old fashioned way.  The resulting products can be exported to
compensate for your lack of smokestack industries.  The infrastructure on
these worlds tends to be sparse, but effective, and the medical system is
first rate...

There are complications which I have ignored, of course!  For example, what
happens when all these super crops start hybridising with each other?  On
the other hand, disease isn't _that_ much of a problem when your agriculture
is spread across a whole world.  And so on....

These worlds are very dangerous to PCs, incidentally.  Because their
technology is "soft", PCs who aren't paying attention can assume that they
are low-tech...

An idea I haven't developed is the thought of "bio-technology" that isn't
carbon-based.  What kind of interesting things could be produced by
silicon-based biotech?  This could be a useful way of handling
nanotechnology, without resorting to magic pink fogs that ignore the laws of
physics.

You could even use both on a single world.  That would allow a hippie-world
to grow its own electronics...

Unfortunately I've just thought of some of Terry Pratchett's images of
clock-building cuckoos, and so on.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 18:17:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue May 21 17:17:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
References: <20020521160305.7A8C4279D1@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c20126$0cd3fe40$a05d8690@computer>

> From: "Clint Rynners"
> the most likely scenario might not in fact be to colonise planets, but
> rather to build snug, safe artificial habitats close to raw materials -
> the local star will provide an energy source. To a star-faring
> civilisation planets could simply be regarded as having gravity wells too
> deep to be viable.

There are problems with these too, of course, but this is an idea that I
keep coming back to.  In my case, it tends to stem from my skepticism about
the feasibility of settlement on "habitable" worlds.  Essentially, I tend to
look at Mars-like worlds as being more likely candidates for settlement than
"Earth-like" ones.  In the long run, of course, the Mars-like worlds can
potentially be terraformed, but you wouldn't want to actually live on them
while this was happening!

Human beings like gravity - it's good for their health.  This could be a
factor encouraging settlements on planetary surfaces, if creating
"artificial gravity" isn't feasible.

One literary source that I find reasonably plausible is C J Cherryh's
Union-Alliance setting, although I find her actual books a little unpleasant
to read.  I've even attempted to create a Traveller universe with a similar
feel.

Over the years I've experimented with generating sectors and subsectors with
a whole lot of tweaks to the worldgen system.  At the moment, I've actually
handwaved my way all the way back to the standard system, with
rationalisations for all the unlikely outcomes it produces!  Basically,
there's been lots of uncoordinated and incomplete terraforming efforts over
the past several thousand years.  The result is a _total_ mess.  In many
cases, temporary settlements that were meant to be abandoned when the
"permanent" settlements were ready have become the permanent settlements,
leading to huge populations being located on all these awful rocks.  And so
on, with similar applications of spurious logic.

My current non-OTU story is that the "old government" still exists in
theory, but most worlds are effectively independent.  The main exceptions
are those annoying Captive Government worlds that don't seem to have an
obvious "owner" nearby.  These worlds are considered to still be ruled by
"old government" Governors.  I'm still trying to convince myself that the
"old government" isn't called the Imperium.  It can't be the Federation,
since I reserved this term for "the good guys".  I don't want to call the
"old government" the Republic, because it sounds too Star Wars, and the
various alternatives of Confederation, League, Alliance, Union and so on
haven't impressed me yet.  Maybe I'll make a decision this afternoon.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 18:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue May 21 17:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
Message-ID: <200205220036.GTS02105@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" asks
>I won an award at the University this year for "Sarcasm and 
>Cynicism beyond the call of duty".
>
>Does that count?
>

On the original Tick show, there was a superhero in training 
named "Sarcastro".  He had your superpowers.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 19:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Mellman)
Date: Tue May 21 18:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] die rolling program
Message-ID: <200205220137.VAA03165@shell.cinternet.net>

I recently saw some reference to die rolling programs or something like
that, and it reminded me that a friend of mine had created a great
little die rolling program (in VB).  I've put it in a zip file on my
GeoCities Traveller site.  The link is in the Misc section on my site:

   http://www.geocities.com/mellmanw/Traveller/

The program is there for anyone who wants it.

(Oh, BTW, sorry, but it's Windows only).


b

 ...........................................................................
  Bill Mellman
  mailto:bill@mellman.net
  http://www.mellman.net/bill/
 ...........................................................................


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 20:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue May 21 19:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers Aide/Type S Scout?
In-Reply-To: <memo.607876@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020521222447.01fc7e80@192.168.0.1>

At 11:23 PM 5/21/2002 +0100, Megan Robertson wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <001c01c20110$e802fe50$b2d593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
> >> I was looking at the submissions site. Is there really gonna be a
> >> Travellers Aide PDF thats all about Type S scouts? That one I would lay
> >> money down for.
> >There is; we just need someone to write it!
>Hmmm... that could be fun. Development of design, standard and
>non-standard equipment loadouts, different uses to which they've been put,
>some famous incidents from their past... how they are modified for
>different purposes (exploration, colonisation, first contact, etc.)...

Ohhhh...don't forget the dodgy air systems...




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/.
Vikings? There ain't no Vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 20:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue May 21 19:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers Aide/Type S Scout?
Message-ID: <200205220231.GTW01013@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>Ohhhh...don't forget the dodgy air systems...
>

Mark, the air system would be fine as long as we all used the 
fresher on a regular basis - and washed our socks.

The recycler doesn't do a good job of removing the smell of 
feet.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 20:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue May 21 19:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers Aide/Type S Scout?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020521222447.01fc7e80@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020522024316.551FE279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/21/02 at 10:25 PM,  Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> said:

>At 11:23 PM 5/21/2002 +0100, Megan Robertson wrote:
>>In-Reply-To: <001c01c20110$e802fe50$b2d593c3@youra7emtd0v3k>
>> >> I was looking at the submissions site. Is there really gonna be a
>> >> Travellers Aide PDF thats all about Type S scouts? That one I would lay
>> >> money down for.
>> >There is; we just need someone to write it!
>>Hmmm... that could be fun. Development of design, standard and
>>non-standard equipment loadouts, different uses to which they've been put,
>>some famous incidents from their past... how they are modified for
>>different purposes (exploration, colonisation, first contact, etc.)...

>Ohhhh...don't forget the dodgy air systems...

A Type S produces plenty of breathable air it's just...well, the
smell! 

For some reason the filtration and purification systems in a Type S
can't *completely* remove the normal smells of use, this pilot loved
to cook chili, that scout burned incense when she meditated, and over
time each builds up its own unique "signature" that is a composite of
all those smells. To some people an old Type S just plain stinks, but
to veterans of the ISS it's the smell of Maive's dirty socks, Lucky
after a hard workout, Sparks when he's been on a bender...it smells
like home.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 20:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue May 21 19:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers Aide/Type S Scout?
In-Reply-To: <200205220231.GTW01013@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020521224516.0285adf8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:31 PM 5/21/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Ohhhh...don't forget the dodgy air systems...
>Mark, the air system would be fine as long as we all used the
>fresher on a regular basis - and washed our socks.
>The recycler doesn't do a good job of removing the smell of
>feet.

Ohhh..so all the Canon references to the Scout's ship air system was just 
to spare the feelings of the Scouts who lived in them. :-)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 20:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue May 21 19:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
Message-ID: <F1231prXvwWOHThkqP2000057ad@hotmail.com>

From: "Clint Rynners" <crynners@afr.ko.com>

     "I am a long-time lurker on this list, but this is my first post."


Mr. Rynners,

     Welcome to the List, sir!  During the last few years you've been able 
to see us at both our best and our worst.  I find it gratifying that you 
still wanted to "de-cloak" after that!

     "To me colonising a planet in another solar system depends on two 
issues:
     1. Does FTL exist or not?
     2. How easy is it to get up and down the gravity well?"

     The answers to those two questions will form the bedrock of the 
fictional universe you create.  Nearly everything else that you place in 
that universe will have to "jive" with the choices you make.
     The choices will go beyond a simple yes/no also.  You could have easy 
interface with no FTL, or hard interface with easy FTL, and so forth.  You 
could put your choices in a grid of sorts:

Universe     Interface                 FTL

Traveller    easy (contra-grav)        yes, medium (jump limits, fuel)

2300 AD      medium (bean stalks,      yes, easy (stutter warp)
              shuttles, mass drivers)

Niven's      medium (shuttles,         no, STL slowboats
ARM series    mass drivers)


     Given the known's of the OTU, how would you see colonization across a 
two or three parsec gap at jump1 happening?  At jump3?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 20:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue May 21 19:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
Message-ID: <F218q2qjyb2k63Dtznk00005cb5@hotmail.com>

From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

     "I don't want to call the "old government" the Republic, because it 
sounds too Star Wars, and the various alternatives of Confederation, League, 
Alliance, Union and so on haven't impressed me yet.  Maybe I'll make a 
decision this afternoon."


Mr. Bradley,

     Unitary State?  Realm?  Association?  Commonwealth?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 20:57:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue May 21 19:57:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEPACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
>
>Having said that, what would happen to the PCs would be as follows :-

Thanks for your comments, Robert, which are as always excellent.
>
>If the injured person is under arrest, there may be some logistical
problems
>with getting tests performed, having the injured person go to theatre for
>surgery, etc.
>(A guard must be within easy access of any prisoner).

He's in a coma, in a medical low berth.  That's how they found him.  They
haven't decided to arrest him, nor have they really thought about it; saving
his life from the situation where they found him has been their priority.
They do know that the name that the low berth has for him is not his real
name, as one of the PCs served in INI with him.

>There may be opportunities for a prisoner to escape. Their accomplices, or
>enemies may barge in to try and free or harm the prisoner, respectively.

This is possible.  The enemies of which the PCs are aware are several
Zhodani warbots guarding the complex where they found the comatose guy.

>The time of the day, and the day of the week will strongly influence
>attendance, as will the hospital's location. The day after pensions are
paid is a peak
>time, for example.

Late afternoon, but it's been an interesting day in Credo (the capital of
Regina in my Traveller universe (and in WBH)), so there should be some odd
stuff going on at the hospital (I'd better not say more; some of my players
may be lurking on the list).

>Typical presenters :-

These were great.

>The "LOL in NAD" - elderly person who has had a dizzy turn or some other
vague complaint

The Laughing Out Loud in Nastay Asthmatic Dimensions ... ok, I have no idea
what it means.

There may be some aliens in ER as well.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 20:59:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue May 21 19:59:33 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Mega Corp Stock values
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEPACDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: timothyreynolds@earthlink.net
>
>I am working out an adventure idea involving a mega corporation
>and stumbled across a problem.  Since a mega corporation is
>spread across the Imperium and would have revenues in the billions
>if not trillions of credits I am wondering about the value and or
>amount of stocks each corporation would have.
>
>Would they have lots and lots of stocks at a low value or would
>there be relatively low number of stocks with extremely high value?

This question really opens up a can of worms.  We've had some discussion
about the securities markets on the list.  Megacorporations will need to
raise money by initial and secondary stock offerings and both corporations
and governmental entities will probably issue bonds.  (Note to self:  Should
Mongo issue a bond to finance its unpaid Imperial taxes?  Maybe people in
the Jewell Cluster would think it's a good investment.)  Everybody will want
to engage in the moderately honest legal gambling that comprises the
post-offering securities markets.

Given the lack of instantaneous communication, the securities markets will
be fairly risky places.  If there is an Imperial stock market, located on
Capital for example, prices would be based on information possibly many
months old.  A stock market could limit itself to securities issued within
one parsec (like Jewell Cluster (Jewell, Esalin, Emerald, Ruby) or Regina
Cluster (Hefry, maybe Ruie, Jenghe I think, and Dinom?; maybe Extolay --
whatever)), but information about those companies will still be as old as
the last X-Boat.

Of course, the foregoing concerns come from the assumption that full and
immediate disclosure is a requirement for effective securities markets.
Maybe it's not.  Maybe only LICs, which meet strict Imperial securities
regulations, would be allowed to trade on any interstellar level.

What was your question?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 21:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue May 21 20:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Arba Landgrab
Message-ID: <3CEB0E43.FAC43E81@mail.cswnet.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>     Just a quick note to let you know how much I enjoyed the sections >of the Arba Landgrab you have posted so far.  I am sure the rest of >the material will be just as good.
>
>     Not every post can disappear as quickly into the TML Black Hole >of Quality as your Arba posts did.  Well done, sir!

Thanks. Its hard to keep up with folks that are smarter than I
[especially with a small chunk of brain gone]. Sometimes I do ok.

I look at my landgrab kinda like people with yards and gardens.
There is always something you have to do with em, and no matter how much
work you pour into them, you'll probably be working on them a week from
now. Its a labor of love.

The Arba landgrab continues on, forever like, into infinity...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 21:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Tue May 21 20:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
References: <20020521160305.7A8C4279D1@mail.travellercentral.com> <006b01c20126$0cd3fe40$a05d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <006001c2013e$fd2d4dc0$1c577b83@housing.res.kent.edu>

<quote>

I'm still trying to convince myself that the
"old government" isn't called the Imperium.  It can't be the Federation,
since I reserved this term for "the good guys".  I don't want to call the
"old government" the Republic, because it sounds too Star Wars, and the
various alternatives of Confederation, League, Alliance, Union and so on
haven't impressed me yet.  Maybe I'll make a decision this afternoon.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com

</quote>

Hegemony

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 21:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue May 21 20:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers Aide/Type S Scout?
Message-ID: <3CEB156E.30FB28DF@mail.cswnet.com>

Jesse DeGraff writes:
>What's the link to that?  I don't see that at the site....

http://www.travellerrpg.com/Submissions/pdfsub.pdf

Its on the T20 website, under submissions. 
The particular piece of interest is the following:

"Category: Ships

1. Scout/Courier
    . The Type S. History, Features etc
    . Type S details: operations, costs, Type S Deckplan
    . Variants
    . Life Aboard a Scout
    . Sample Type S and her crew
    . Using the Scout in Traveller Adventures
    . Adventure aboard a Scout, for owners of one (need not be
      Scout Personnel)
    . Additional Material: Survey and Charting Operations"

I've self keyboarded just drooling over such a module.

Make it happen people. Make it look cool. 
Make it and I will buy.
Make it into a real book with glossy pictures and I will buy alot.

Types of Type S's 
1. Sulieman 
2. Sulieman II 
3. Serpent
4. the Type J [should that be included?]
5. Intrepid [?]
6. the T20 type S [whatever that was called]
and...[add what I can't remember here]


Imagine...

Sitting in the bridge somewhere way out in the far edge of the Bowman
belt. Sipping on a coke, listening to Pink Floyd's "Shine on you Crazy
Diamond", and looking out into the void of space...

Thats what the Type S Scout means to me.

Peace.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 22:00:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue May 21 21:00:12 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Fly (China) to the Moon
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17B73@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>


Hey I just read this article on the Chinese space program and they quoted
this scientist as saying

One NASA engineer has calculated that one cubic kilometre of nickel-iron
asteroid would yield seven billion tonnes of iron, a billion tonnes of
nickel and enough cobalt to supply the world for 3000 years.

Holy crap. That means a tiny Pop 4 Asteroid Settlement could effectively
supply our needs easily. 

I'm starting to look at Asteroid 'World's a whole lot more differently. With
cheap rocks like this, would that mean that mining on atmopshered worlds
would concentrate solely on those rare to get minerals? And with no
indigenous mining ability for the raw meaty ores like iron they would in
turn be rooted if they got cut off from interstellar trade.

Wow. 

That blows my mind. 

Mikey

PS Article is at

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/05/21/1021882055129.html
<http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/05/21/1021882055129.html> 





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 22:03:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue May 21 21:03:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Out system travel...
Message-ID: <3CEB1731.E29144F8@mail.cswnet.com>

The ISS Agena will be travelling to the mysterious asteroid known as
Marion, Ohio. Will be back in port 5/19/2002 late. Check your screens, 
watch out for enemy Penguins...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
ps Lets keep the traffic slow please. I'll be spending all next week
just catching up on the mail ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 22:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Tue May 21 21:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Out system travel...
In-Reply-To: <3CEB1731.E29144F8@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMMEHBDOAA.tml@jtas.org>

Oh, cool! Time travel. He's leaving today and will be back two days ago :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Roseberry
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 11:58 PM
>
> The ISS Agena will be travelling to the mysterious asteroid known as
> Marion, Ohio. Will be back in port 5/19/2002 late. Check your screens,
> watch out for enemy Penguins...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 22:22:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Tue May 21 21:22:56 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Most Damage caused by Gaming
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17B72@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Hey lads,

When you're gaming things can get pretty excited, stuff chucked around the
room (dice, characters, soda bottles, other players etc), loud noises, table
thumping and the like. And obviously when this happens well damage can be
caused. 

Take me for example. I was gaming (with my current group) a couple of years
ago and they had this floor level couch (you know, no legs, the base of the
couch on the floor). So I drop from standing height onto the couch.
Unfortunately my trajectory caused me to instead ram my head through the dry
wall and impact on the brick behind it, causing $A250 bucks worth of damage
(that I paid for myself). 

Anyone else beat that?

Mikey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 22:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue May 21 21:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020521042731.009ed510@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOECLEIAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

In TNE (FFS1)Dynamic linked controls arrive at TL10 and Holographic Linked
controls at TL13. So in the imperium and neighbouring states these will be
your normal controls. Also as these are not DGP (they were also in the
original MT books) canonicity is not an issue. (Unless your using CT in
which the control types were not mentioned, but were assumed)

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Kelly St.Clair
Sent: Tuesday, 21 May 2002 7:31 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] HoloControls & ForceFields.


Traveller already has these things (though they may be forbidden DGP
canon), known as holodynamic panels.  Fully reconfigurable.  Tactile
feedback is provided by a precision-targeted array of tiny repulsors -
pressor beams, for you new folks who have GURPS and not High Guard.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 22:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue May 21 21:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TNS at JTAS
In-Reply-To: <F104GAFcsi9EG1Grmmr00005575@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c20149$e57389f0$0b01a8c0@duck>

>      So, if the Confederation did fracture, ala Yugoslavia, what sort of 
> situations do you see developing?

Without the full benefit of understanding the complete situation, here
is my guess:

You basically have the MT Civil War in Solomani space.  I would expect
some very savage fighting as the central government and SolSec desparately
attempt to cling to power.  It would be ugly and very, very bloody.

As a result the vast majority of Confederation territory would be 
consumed by the Aslan and Imperium.  I would expect that the Imperium 
would actually be welcomed with open arms because of the Aslan advances 
and because of the devistation wrought by the factional fighting.

The Hivers would move to create a buffer zone of small independent states
where their border with the Confederation used to be.  Besides providing
a safe buffer zone, it would also be an excellent laboratory for trying
various manipulation techniques on humans.

All that would likely remain of the former Confederation would be some
independent states centered in the sector directly rimward of the
Solomani Rim and another half sector each to spinward and trailing.

Basically the disintegration of the Confederation would make the
breakup of Yugoslavia look like an peaceful, amicable divorce.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 22:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue May 21 21:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Freefall
In-Reply-To: <20020521053536.EFCE0279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c2014a$9c36cd00$0b01a8c0@duck>

> I think we have another freefall fan. <g>

That would be a "Yes!!"  I actually sat down and read all 646 strips.

> Freefall is great! I've been reading it for a couple of years now, and
> look forward to my thrice weekly fix.  However...as good as Freefall
> is, although it has similarities to Traveller, I'd still love to see a
> *Traveller* strip, but I don't suppose we have any Milton Caniffs on
> the list...I know I couldn't do it.

Don't get me wrong.  I just think Freefall has a definite "Traveller"
feel to it.  I would also love to see an actual Traveller strip or
on-line comic.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 23:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue May 21 22:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TNS at JTAS
In-Reply-To: <F104GAFcsi9EG1Grmmr00005575@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEDGEIAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

A break-up of the Solomani Confederation?

Well given that many of the confederations members are multi-system in scope
one immediate effect would be the creation of numerous "pocket empires" of
assorted sizes and strengths. Followed by the inevitable struggle as the
larger/stronger ones attempt to absorb the smaller/weaker ones. Whether the
imperium would intervene would be interesting, based on the premise that one
way to unite people who hate each other is to present a common threat. I
think it unlikely that the majority of the inhabitants of the Solomani
Confederation would want to become part of the "stagnant" conservative
imperium.

This could be called the period of the Chaos Wars. Sounds like a good period
for those people who want there characters to have an impact on history.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2002 7:54 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] TNS at JTAS


Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Seeing how the TML slowed somewhat, I'll attempt to bootstrap a thread
into existence.  What would the immediate and long term results be of a
break up of the Solomani Confederation?
     It is a completely unwarranted assumption on my part, but the
meta-story in the GURPS Traveller timeline "seems" to be hinting at rather
"interesting times" along the Solomani Rim.
     Previous TNS snippets, plus the GT:RoF sourcebook, have outlined
increased political tensions on both sides of the cease fire line.  The
Confederation is currently fumbling the succession of Kulkulcan(sp), a
hi-pop world bested in a trade battle with other worlds in it's subsector.
The Imperium is still wrestling with Solomani sympathizers in it's
territories, not to mention a steadily increasing wrangling among the local
nobility up to the Archducal level.
     After a SolSec purge of Confederation naval formations, the Imperium
has seen a steady flow of defectors cross the cease fire line, so much so in
fact that the authorities have had to confirm that fact rather than brush it
aside.
     Most recently, an emergency Red Zone announcement has been made, with a
system being placed off limits by orders of the Imperial naval command.
While the system in question is rather distant from the cease fire line, one
wonders just what the IN is doing in the area that it wishes to hide.
     So, if the Confederation did fracture, ala Yugoslavia, what sort of
situations do you see developing?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 21 23:07:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue May 21 22:07:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Starship Assembly
In-Reply-To: <3CEA40CE.6991.4F8DFA@localhost>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEDGEIAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Another Mega Corp question

Are all starships completely constructed and assembled in the
same system, or are parts preassembled in different systems and
shiped to assembly locations.

This is an important questions because if they are constructed at
different locations then we have need of whole new size of space
transports that can carry not 100s of tons, but 1000s tons.  There
would also be delays in construction time.

(I look around making sure everything is secured)

Finally these large ships would be great pray for pirates.  A pirate
may not risk his life for passengers, or 100 tons of wool.  But for a
chance to secure whole new drives or weapons and
communications equipment might be worth especially if you need
them.

Tim Reynolds
_______________________________________________
I have always felt that the modular components such as those in CT Book 2 by
their very nature could be assembled almost anywhere there was sufficient
technology and industry and then shipped off in containers to worlds for
final slot in to hulls. This could be expanded to other widespread standard
designs. Other vessels and those "standard" designs that do not have a wide
distribution propably not, except for smaller componants.

Basically it all depends.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 00:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Tue May 21 23:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
Message-ID: <OF7F53BFC5.842A0752-ON42256BC1.0020ECF6@ko.com>

Timothy Little wrote:

"In energy and time terms, the cost of getting into orbit is roughly as
significant compared with the cost of interstellar travel, as getting
out of bed compares to intercontinental flight."

Greetings Timothy

I agree, I just hadn't thought too much about the energy expenditure
required for interstellar travel. Perhaps my assumptions are slightly more
correct for colonisation of our own solar system.

Is it not possible for humanity to reach a point where a bussard-ramscoop
type interstellar craft can be constructed, but getting into orbit remains
expensive? There would have to be sufficient people living off Earth to
actually manage the construction process, but I don't know if that
necessarily means that we need a revolution in interface technology, simply
the will to do it, and some impetus (such as a collapsing biosphere).

On the other hand, I am quite ignorant about how far away from Bussard's
proposal we actually are, or even if it is at all realistic, and I
definitely buy the argument that several paradigm shifts will be required
before interstellar travel becomes even remotely possible.

Regards

Clint Rynners


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 01:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Wed May 22 00:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
Message-ID: <OF25DBF37B.5E8C3FBD-ON42256BC1.0026C360@ko.com>

Alan Bradley writes:

"One literary source that I find reasonably plausible is C J Cherryh's
Union-Alliance setting, although I find her actual books a little
unpleasant
to read.  I've even attempted to create a Traveller universe with a similar
feel."

Greetings Alan

C.J. Cherryh's Union-Alliance series certainly has a gritty flavour that I
prefer for science fiction - role playing or literature. However, I blush
on her behalf whenever I think of space craft docking at the outside ring
of a rotating space station, rather than at the hub.

"Basically,
there's been lots of uncoordinated and incomplete terraforming efforts over
the past several thousand years.  The result is a _total_ mess.  In many
cases, temporary settlements that were meant to be abandoned when the
"permanent" settlements were ready have become the permanent settlements,
leading to huge populations being located on all these awful rocks.  And so
on, with similar applications of spurious logic."

I think this is an excellent rationale. In the Third Imperium I have played
in, the high-population, high-tech worlds are the Imperium, in economic and
political terms, the rest are the slums, the third world, etc. They
contribute very little, have no say, and if they have anything of value to
offer they are horribly exploited without sustainable investment that would
allow them to climb out of the hole they are in. They are good places for a
cheap vacation on a "scenic little world with a quaint local culture,
excellent cuisine, and home-made tapestries that will look good above the
fire-place in the guest lounge. Just make sure you get all your shots
before you go".

If you have ever played Paranoia, you would know that spurious logic is an
excellent survival skill.

Regards

Clint Rynners


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 02:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Wed May 22 01:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
Message-ID: <OFA8DA791B.90299952-ON42256BC1.002A86B8@ko.com>

Mr Whipsnade

You serve as a role model in my approach to this list - politeness,
maturity and interesting debate are the hallmarks of a successful forum.

In terms of Traveller, Jump 1 would imply approximately 3 weeks' travel to
a world 3 parsecs distant. Much of the volume of the vessel doing the
travelling would be fuel. I believe the conditions for colonisation in a
setting that has faster than light travel would remain the same as I
initially suggested. A ship would arrive with some planetary construction
experts, and a whole lot of your "toasters", to get the ball rolling. As
the colony becomes more successful, population could grow. The system could
remain a backwater if there are more useful places closer to the homeworld,
or not if there was a good reason for being there.

The region in and around the Imperium is settled. I don't know how much new
colonisation there would be. Colonisation efforts would be very long
distance missions far away from readily available support, and likely
surrounded by hostile or potentially hostile states (given that this is a
good plot device, it is almost certain that there are bad guys of some sort
lurking nearby). I imagine that the Imperial Navy would have a hand in the
mission, and the initial colony might have a military flavour. There would
be political ramifications for this kind of action.

Another silly thought occurs to me. Imagine a subsector duke's surprise,
when he arrives for a holiday on his private preserve world, after being
away for several years, to find a burgeoning TL9 colony from a neighbouring
backwater world built up around his manor house. They're even using his
toilets and raiding his larder.

Regards

Clint Rynners


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 02:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May 22 01:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RW Genetic Engineering
In-Reply-To: <20020522072905.CECC8279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17ARFV-00072Y-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

Check out-

(pre-plucked chickens)
http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id
=590366&in_review_text_id=558671

It makes you wonder what weirdly modified creatures TL 15 
societies use for food animals (among those that don't just use 
carniculture vats).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 02:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed May 22 01:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Fly (China) to the Moon
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17B73@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17B73@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020522182650.A9450@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hughes, Michael wrote:
> Holy crap. That means a tiny Pop 4 Asteroid Settlement could
> effectively supply our needs easily.

Yep.

However, extracting and refining the metal is still likely to involve
similar or even greater capital and labour per unit mass.  Just
because it's there in abundance doesn't mean it's free :)

Think of solar power as an example.  The energy itself is everywhere,
and in more than sufficient quantities.  The problem is that you still
have to pay for building and maintaining equipment to collect it,
transform it to useful form, balance the loads, distribute it.  Then
once you've done that you have to keep track of it all.

I see asteroid belts as just being more locations from which to obtain
resources.  Some resorces are best developed on worlds with breathable
atmospheres, some on uninhabitable worlds, and some in space.  Which
ones gets developed where is just a question of economics and
politics.


> With cheap rocks like this, would that mean that mining on
> atmopshered worlds would concentrate solely on those rare to get
> minerals?

Maybe, maybe not.  Most rare metals aren't more common on planets than
in asteroids.  In some cases, quite the reverse.

It probably depends how the world was colonised.  Poorer colonies
aren't going to have the ability to maintain asteroid mining
initially, since it requires a significant investment in off-world
infrastructure.  Local mines can be started with nothing more advanced
than pick and shovel (or TL5 explosives).  They'll probably be able to
mine all the metals they'll ever need right there where their needs
are, and may only one day in the distant future start to think about
asteroid mining.  As it is, they aren't ever going to run out of
common metals, and importing asteroid-mined stuff is just silly in
those circumstances.  They could even export them if they wanted.

High-tech colonies may well start in space, developing mining and
smelting operations out where there's no pesky atmospheres or gravity
to interfere.  With abundant fusion and jump fuel from icy bodies or
gas giants, they can build a refuelling depot and start shipping out
refined metals almost immediately from pre-constructed facilities.
Food will be more expensive since there are more constraints on how it
can be grown, but them's the breaks.


> And with no indigenous mining ability for the raw meaty ores like
> iron they would in turn be rooted if they got cut off from
> interstellar trade.

Iron's dead easy to find, and not difficult to refine.  That's why the
Iron Age came before the Industrial Revolution :)

If a planet doesn't already have iron mines, I expect they could
develop some well before they started to run out.  Re-smelting scrap
metal would do for a start, while they're still ramping up production.

The only thing is that it might be more expensive than imported
metals.  I don't see how, though -- a few hundred credits interstellar
transport costs per ton is a *very* hefty margin on common metals.  As
a comparison, current production costs for pig iron are on the order
of A$300 per ton, which is roughly 30 CrImp.

So I think it will be only the rare metals that get transported over
interstellar distances -- common ones just aren't worth enough to
cover the cost of shipping, let alone compete with planet-based
mining.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 02:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 22 01:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10205210933430.14726-100000@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20522.010317.1v0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 17 May 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> > It might be Acrobat, since the end users are likely to be 
>> > able to get a copy of the reader regardless of their platform.
>> Nope. Try finding a PDF viewer for MS-DOS. Or for our C64 guru here. 
>
> Well, I think I have one for MS-DOS. The version is sadly something like
> 3.0, so it won't show new PDF files.

Right. I've got that somewhere too. But as you noted, it's useless for
most current PDF files.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 02:35:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 22 01:35:31 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAGEDGHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <20522.010419.1g5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote :
>> In mail you write:
>> > It might be Acrobat, since the end users are likely to be
>> > able to get a copy of the reader regardless of their
>> > platform.
>>
>> Nope. Try finding a PDF viewer for MS-DOS. Or for our
>> C64 guru here.
>
> You can't find one for the Ohio Scientific, the Video Genie, or
> the ZX-81 either, but none of those are valid arguments for not
> using PDF.
>
> After all, you can't buy many car accessories these days that
> will work in a horse and buggy, or a naval auto-nav system that
> will work in an unmodified 16thC galleon, which are the road and
> naval equivalents of the systems you're discussing.

Hardly. DOS systems are still quite useful for many things.

> Of course, most modern text documents are bigger than what you
> can fit in the memory of a standard DOS machine (only 16K,
> originally, and only designed to handle a max of 64K) as well.

The max of 64k was 64k ON THE MOTHERBOARD, not 64k total. 

And my old XT clone had 736k if I didn't need graphics (you can use the
A000-B7FF area for system RAM if all you want is text). Plus 2 meg of
EMS RAM. And a 10 MHz V20.

The 486DX-66 I use for things like sending and receiving email has 64
*meg* of RAM. And runs DR-DOS 7.

> Basically, Windows or Linux/X capable machines are available for
> minimal investment these days , probably less than you pay for
> your phone line/internet connection per month, if not nothing.

But they are overkill for some things. 

> Heck, if you lived close enough I could give you several to get
> them out of my garage where they're doing nothing but gather
> dust. Even the local school, whom I salvaged them for in the
> first place, doesn't want them anymore, they have better
> equipment given to them by a local company when it upgraded.

And I don't really need *more* computers. I need to get some of the
"upgrades" done so I can cycle out the lower end boxes for other
purposes.

> I have no problem with people keeping old machinery going for
> nostalgic purposes, but it's  silly to try to use it for serious
> work.

Why *waste* a Pentium class system on a dial-up uucp connection and
other similar tasks?

> Trying to be involved in the net these days on machines like that
> is like finding that your 1912 gas stove doesn't plug into your
> wall socket, and then coming up with some weird way to get it
> working anyway, and then complaining that it's not very
> effficient.

> Kudos to your inventiveness and effort, but minus ten millon for
> practicality!

I'm running a *number* of systems here. With various OSes. Netware,
OS/2, DR-DOS, Windows 98SE, Mac OS, Win CE, TRS-DOS, etc.


> On the other hand you _can_ get a DOS PDF viewer. A quick
> exercise of google-fu gave at least one valid link :

> http://fc.capaccess.org/download/DOS/acrodos.exe
>
> However, it's 2.5Mb in size so it definitely has to be a
> non-standard DOS machine with an actual hard drive. <grin>

MS-DOS has supported HDs since version 2. And networking since version
3. 

Want a bootable PC-DOS 1.1 floppy? 3.5 or 5.25...

Or Windows 1.x or 2.x?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 02:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May 22 01:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SEC: UNCLASS Fly (China) to the Moon
In-Reply-To: <20020522072905.CECC8279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17ARYY-0004Wv-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

"Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@defence.gov.au> wrote:

> Hey I just read this article on the Chinese space program and they
> quoted this scientist as saying
> 
> One NASA engineer has calculated that one cubic kilometre of
> nickel-iron asteroid would yield seven billion tonnes of iron, a
> billion tonnes of nickel and enough cobalt to supply the world for
> 3000 years.
> 
> Holy crap. That means a tiny Pop 4 Asteroid Settlement could
> effectively supply our needs easily. 
> 
> I'm starting to look at Asteroid 'World's a whole lot more
> differently. With cheap rocks like this, would that mean that mining
> on atmopshered worlds would concentrate solely on those rare to get
> minerals? 

Yep, there is still plenty of reason to mine on terrestrial worlds.  
W/o water, you don't get ore veins, and that's about the only way 
you will find metals like gold, platinum, or many of the other rarer 
metals in anything remotely resembling pure form.  Then again, if 
you have fusion torches and industrial scale mass spectrometers 
(ie one that can separate out each element from a mixture in a 
large scale) you can get all that from many asteroids (albeit in very 
small quantities).

One fun idea I've used in a couple of places is a terrestrial world 
that has been blasted into an asteroid belt.  If most of the world 
stayed in roughly the same orbit, the resulting asteroid belt would 
be about 1000 time denser than the one in our system (ie the 
distances between asteroids would be about 1/10 as great [btw, 
does anyone have any idea how far apart on average asteroids in 
our asteroid belt are?]).  In addition to having *lots* more asteroids, 
you would also have all the nice metal veins, a wonderfully rich 
metallic core and other goodness that should make any asteroid 
miner jump for joy.

In addition, since the most likely way in which such a world could 
have been destroyed in the TU is the Ancient's war, you might even 
have a few Ancient artifacts floating around in the system.  
Anything not made of unobtanium on the surface would be slag, 
but there might be remains of an orbital station or two, or even of 
ships that *almost* escaped.  

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 04:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed May 22 03:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOGEGMCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Glenn Goffin wrote :-
>>The "LOL in NAD" - elderly person who has had a dizzy turn
>> or some other vague complaint
>
> The Laughing Out Loud in Nastay Asthmatic Dimensions ... ok, I have
> no idea what it means.

Little Old Lady in No Apparent Distress.
One of the many "House of God"-isms that have leaked into the subculture.
Compare with 'gomer' (get out of my emergency room!)

> There may be some aliens in ER as well.
Mmm. Apart from various catheters and tubes, there's not a lot of crossover
between
the various OTU physiologies. Stocking a hospital pharmacy in the 3I
must be a nightmare...


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 04:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed May 22 03:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Steve Jackson Games Server Outage?
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOKEGMCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Has anyone successfully logged on to the SJG website, Pyramid, or the
playtest
lists in the last 48 hours?

I haven't. I wonder if the problem is at my end or in Austin, TX...


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 04:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed May 22 03:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : SJG server outage post
Message-ID: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOOEGMCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>

Sorry about the off-topic post ; but I know a lot of the people on this
list are also Pyramid subscribers.

Ob Trav: Are computers at typical 3I tech levels prone to "blue screens
o'death"?
Or have things progressed to the 'reboot after scheduled 100-year
maintenance' stage...


Robert O'Connor
medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 04:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Wed May 22 03:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <20522.010419.1g5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEELHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Leonard Erickson wrote :
> > After all, you can't buy many car accessories these days that
> > will work in a horse and buggy, or a naval auto-nav
> > system that will work in an unmodified 16thC galleon,
> > which are the road and naval equivalents of the systems
> > you're discussing.
>
> Hardly. DOS systems are still quite useful for many things.

So are horse and buggy's and sixteenth century galleons.
You can use them as props in films about the old days !

BTW, has anyone mentioned here yet that Russell Crowe's next film
is
with Peter Weir, and is based on Patrick O'Brien's Jack Aubry
books ?

> > Of course, most modern text documents are bigger
> > than what you can fit in the memory of a standard
> > DOS machine (only 16K, originally, and only designed
> > to handle a max of 64K) as well.
>
> The max of 64k was 64k ON THE MOTHERBOARD, not 64k total.

True, I missed a zero.

> The 486DX-66 I use for things like sending and
> receiving email has 64 *meg* of RAM. And runs DR-DOS 7.

So why aren't you runnning Linux on it?
<grin>

Have you tried DR-DOS 8 ?
It's given away free, and comes with a fully graphical browser,
quite a good fast one too, and was designed for use in bespoke
airport internet terminals and the like.

<snip>
> Why *waste* a Pentium class system on a dial-up uucp
> connection and other similar tasks?

Because they're not much use for anything else ?
You need at least a Pentium III to do anything useful these days.
<grin>

> I'm running a *number* of systems here. With various
> OSes. Netware, OS/2, DR-DOS, Windows 98SE, Mac OS,

Then you _can_ view PDF's, even without your DOS machine,
so stop complaining!

> Win CE,

Good name that, huh?

> TRS-DOS, etc.

Gave away the last of my TRS-DOS machines over five years ago,
when I moved cities, but found I still have an original tape and
packaging of Scott Adams "Ghosttown Adventure" in the bottom of a
trunk, which is one of the first games I actually bought.

> Want a bootable PC-DOS 1.1 floppy? 3.5 or 5.25...
> Or Windows 1.x or 2.x?

Thanks, but I think I already have a binary image of them
somewhere on my archive DVDs
(only $500 US or less for a DVD writer these days), you can store
the entire software repertoire of most pre-90's computers on one
of them.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 05:18:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Wed May 22 04:18:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOGEGMCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <3CEB7FE6.5040909@gmx.net>

Robert O'Connor wrote:

>Glenn Goffin wrote :-
>
>>>The "LOL in NAD" - elderly person who has had a dizzy turn
>>>or some other vague complaint
>>>
>>The Laughing Out Loud in Nastay Asthmatic Dimensions ... ok, I have
>>no idea what it means.
>>
>
>Little Old Lady in No Apparent Distress.
>One of the many "House of God"-isms that have leaked into the subculture.
>Compare with 'gomer' (get out of my emergency room!)
>
>>There may be some aliens in ER as well.
>>
>Mmm. Apart from various catheters and tubes, there's not a lot of crossover
>between
>the various OTU physiologies. Stocking a hospital pharmacy in the 3I
>must be a nightmare...
>
Up to a certin TL...after that you keep a small to medium stock of 'Need 
it right this second" meds and the Chemical Sequencing Reactor (TM) 
makes you a new batch..

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 05:34:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Wed May 22 04:34:11 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Trav generation road testers needed (apply within)
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17B87@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

Dear TMLers

I advertised for road testers a few weeks ago (and someone said yes but
their mailbox bounced them). Any way I am offering it up again. It features
a combo of Mega Trav, GURPS and chaosium generation. I really think it is
something (having generated about 100 versions at any one time) and would
love it if people could view it and try and crunch some Travellers for it.
It should take only 10 minutes or so initially, then about 5 minutes a
character, background aside.

I have the Generation and the Skills as PDFs with lovely bookmarks in them
for ease of navigation (I think you need Reader 4+ to view them though).
Together,  they are a total of about 400k in size. 

If you're interested please contact me off list. I am yet to put it on the
web as I have not yet got permission (plus there is a fair amount of text
from the original books and I don't know where I stand on the copyright). 

Mikey



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 06:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 22 05:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <E17AEag-0006a3-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20522.040554.8W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>> > Obv. it's possible to live without agriculture (our distant
>> > ancestors did it, after all)--but I'd not want to attempt it...
>> 
>> Actually, paleolithic and early neolithic societies lived pretty well.
>> It *didn't* take all that much effort to get food most of the time.
>> Heck, the few remaining hunter-gatherer societies are in some pretty
>> damned marginal areas and they *still* work less hours a week than we
>> do.
>> 
>> What agriculture did was trade some *damned* hard work for the
>> assurance that you'd be able to make it thru a "bad year" or two. 
>
> Also, you can support a whole heck of a lot more people on an 
> square mile of farmland than a square mile of land used for hunting 
> and gathering.
>
> OTOH, both of those generalizations don't work everywhere, 
> specifically I'm thinking of our area (the pacific northwest).  The 
> local Native American tribes up in Oregon and Washington manage 
> to have relatively high populations and were verging on chiefdom-
> level societies and they lived as hunter-gatherers.  The difference is 
> that the yearly salmon migration combined with the remarkable 
> abundance of fruits, berries and nuts meant that their food 
> production yields were almost equal to premodern farming.
>
> It occurs to me that some clever genetic engineers could likely 
> transform the more fertile portions of a newly opened colony world 
> into a place where hunting and gathering was *very* easy and 
> pleasant.  Items like the beefsteak root from Clifford Simak's _Time 
> is the Simplest Thing_ definitely comes to mind, as do large tasty 
> critters with all the survival instincts of the Dodo (naturally you'd 
> need to avoid anything else that could eat these things)  
>
> I really like the idea of a TL 10 society where the subsistence base 
> is hunting and gathering.  You could even have a TL 15 world like 
> that, but I'd assume that most of the work would then be done by 
> robots.  I'll definitely use this idea someplace.

What occured to *me* was some "back to nature" types setting up a "TL
0" colony. Or a resort.

Handwoven clothes, hunting and gathering to get food. Other
"handicrafts", all combined with satellite phones and modern medicine.
<g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 06:08:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 22 05:08:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <OF7F53BFC5.842A0752-ON42256BC1.0020ECF6@ko.com>
Message-ID: <20522.041313.7W0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Timothy Little wrote:
>
> "In energy and time terms, the cost of getting into orbit is roughly as
> significant compared with the cost of interstellar travel, as getting
> out of bed compares to intercontinental flight."
>
> Greetings Timothy
>
> I agree, I just hadn't thought too much about the energy expenditure
> required for interstellar travel. Perhaps my assumptions are slightly more
> correct for colonisation of our own solar system.
>
> Is it not possible for humanity to reach a point where a bussard-ramscoop
> type interstellar craft can be constructed, but getting into orbit remains
> expensive? There would have to be sufficient people living off Earth to
> actually manage the construction process, but I don't know if that
> necessarily means that we need a revolution in interface technology, simply
> the will to do it, and some impetus (such as a collapsing biosphere).

Two main problems.

First, if you can make fusion work in a Bussard ramjet, you can make it
work in small reactors. Which means getting into orbit *is* cheap.
Unavoidable. As a worst case, you use the reactort to superheat plain
old hydrogen to iunsane temps and use that as the exhaust. You'll get
exhaust velocities *way* above what we get from chemical rockets, which
means that they'll use a *lot* less fuel.

For reference, the delta-V (total velocity change) a rocket can give is

dV = Ev * ln(mr)

dV = deltaV
Ev = exhaust velocity
ln = natural log function
mr = mass ratio of rocket.

So a big increase in exhaust velocity means a *huge* decrease in mass
ratio. Which means a huge increase in payload *and* a big drop in the
amount of fuel required for a given mass of payload.

Given fusion, getting into orbit is going to be easy.

The second problem is that the top speed of a Bussard ramjet turns out
to be too low to be useful. The top speed is reached when the drag from
scooping up the hydrogen equals the thrust you can get from fusing said
hydrogen. 

The limit looks to be a few percent of light speed. Which means you
lose the time dilation advantage. And a trip to the nearest star will
take *centuries*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 06:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Wed May 22 05:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Steve Jackson Games Server Outage?
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOKEGMCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
References: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOKEGMCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <20020522121222.GB21552@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 08:43:17PM +1000, Robert O'Connor wrote:
> Has anyone successfully logged on to the SJG website, Pyramid, or the
> playtest
> lists in the last 48 hours?
> 
> I haven't. I wonder if the problem is at my end or in Austin, TX...
> 
Yesterday's Daily Illuminator contained a serious gripe about Network
Solutions customer disservice at it related to SJGames moving their
domain registrations to another registry. I don't know if that might
have anything to do with the problems you observe.

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 07:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed May 22 06:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
Message-ID: <F146AXl9Ol8tCIZdy3500004e19@hotmail.com>

From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>

     "Little Old Lady in No Apparent Distress.  One of the many "House of 
God"-isms that have leaked into the subculture.  Compare with 'gomer' (get 
out of my emergency room!)"



Mr. O'Connor,

     Ma Whipsnade was a pediatric nurse for many years.  I remember she and 
her co-workers referring to FLKs; funny looking kids.  FLKs necessarily came 
with FLPs, funny looking parents.
     One of my favorite stories of hers concerns the "Lonely Guy".  They had 
a 5 year old in isolation, he was reasonable well but had to be kept 
seperate from other kiddies due to whatever he had been exposed to.  He 
could see the nurses and others kiddos bustling about the ward just outside 
his room.  As every nurse stolled by, a plaintive voice would call out 
"Heeeyyyyy  Laaaaaadeeeeee".  They quickly juggled their assignments so a 
nurse could spend part of the shift with him with the others taking on the 
rest of her patients.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 07:11:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tmixon)
Date: Wed May 22 06:11:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Steve Jackson Games Server Outage?
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOKEGMCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <005101c20192$2b82a370$0f01a8c0@terry>

> Has anyone successfully logged on to the SJG website, Pyramid, or the
> playtest lists in the last 48 hours?
> 
> I haven't. I wonder if the problem is at my end or in Austin, TX...

It's down for me as well, including the JTAS site.

Terry


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 07:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed May 22 06:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <20522.040554.8W4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205220619140.14537-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> What occured to *me* was some "back to nature" types setting up a "TL
> 0" colony. Or a resort.
>
> Handwoven clothes, hunting and gathering to get food. Other
> "handicrafts", all combined with satellite phones and modern medicine.
> <g>

Selling their, gasp, *made by human hands* crafts to those high tech
worlds that have all their stuff made for them by TL14 'factories'.

(cf. the Dovetail phyl from Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age")

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 07:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed May 22 06:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arba Landgrab
Message-ID: <F66ZmDE6LTiDAnjrn7C000007d3@hotmail.com>

From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>

     "I look at my landgrab kinda like people with yards and gardens.
There is always something you have to do with em, and no matter how much
work you pour into them, you'll probably be working on them a week from
now. Its a labor of love."


Mr. Roseberry,

     I know of what you speak.  Oh boy do I ever...
     Thinking my two 'Grabs are nearly complete, I stumble across GT:Free 
Trader and MUST use it.  Then it's all those checks against canon, gotta 
make sure you don't bend things too far.  Then it's GT:First In, gotta use 
that one too.  Then it's the mapping program I found (AutoRealm).  Mr. Paul 
Drye posts a superb translation article at JTAS causing me to flush every 
place name in both 'Grabs because I should get that part "right" too.  Now 
I'm looking at GT:Starports...
     I read once that the hallmark of a true writer is knowing when to STOP 
revising.  Guess that requirement leaves me out of the running.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 07:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed May 22 06:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <20522.041313.7W0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205220623330.14537-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> For reference, the delta-V (total velocity change) a rocket can give is
>
> dV = Ev * ln(mr)

Thanks for the reference - I always like a post with formulae to wrap my
head around the ideas therein!  It helps, even as a refresher.

> So a big increase in exhaust velocity means a *huge* decrease in mass
> ratio. Which means a huge increase in payload *and* a big drop in the
> amount of fuel required for a given mass of payload.
>
> Given fusion, getting into orbit is going to be easy.

Would there be potentially serious environmental impacts from this?
With enough ships going up, sure, but in general is it harmful?
(Acceptable as a handwave to get the feel he wants?)  What is in the
exhaust/immediate byproducts from a fusion drive?

> The second problem is that the top speed of a Bussard ramjet turns out
> to be too low to be useful. The top speed is reached when the drag from
> scooping up the hydrogen equals the thrust you can get from fusing said
> hydrogen.
>
> The limit looks to be a few percent of light speed. Which means you
> lose the time dilation advantage. And a trip to the nearest star will
> take *centuries*.

Always wondered about that in Niven's Ringworld stories.

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 07:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed May 22 06:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
Message-ID: <F42ibGHJxJlV0gdjKhN00006392@hotmail.com>

From: "Clint Rynners" <crynners@afr.ko.com>

     "- politeness, maturity and interesting debate are the hallmarks of a 
successful forum."


Mr. Rynner,

     I believe that the TML possesses all those requirements in spades.  
Sure, we slip up every now and then, but that's just because we're human.  
Believe me, I've seen some other forums (shudder).

     "Another silly thought occurs to me. Imagine a subsector duke's 
surprise, when he arrives for a holiday on his private preserve world, after 
being away for several years, to find a burgeoning TL9 colony from a 
neighbouring backwater world built up around his manor house. They're even 
using his toilets and raiding his larder."

     Silly?  That's a wonderful adventure seed if I ever heard one.
     Imagine that the TL9, hi-pop world has been looking for a place to dump 
undesirables, along along the lines of Pournelle's BuReLoc.  Dropped right 
into the middle of his nature preserve, the noble finds a "colony" of 
unskilled wastrels, squatting in tents, eating donated food yeast or 
petro-carbs, kept reasonbly quiet with gov't supplied drugs, and doing 
little else other than making lots of little wastrels.
     Then imagine that the noble in question is currently on the "outs" with 
all his fellow nobles or merely just a few other nobles.  They could use the 
situation to discomfort him.  He calls for the colonists removal, only to 
have his requests ignored.  He contacts the TL9 world's nobles and is blown 
off.  He tries to get the subsector navy to intervene, but is overruled by 
the rest of the local nobility.  The problem circles endlessly with the 
colony growing with each shipment of undesirables.
     Then the offer reaches him.
     If he'd throw his support behind Duke B for sector Duke instead of Duke 
A, all his troubles will go away.  Or if he supports policy A over policy B, 
all his troubles go away.  Or if he turns a blind eye to A's actions, all 
his troubles go away.
     Think your PCs might find a few "jobs" in all this mess?  On either 
side of the issue?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 07:48:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed May 22 06:48:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <F1231prXvwWOHThkqP2000057ad@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205220630280.14537-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
[...]
>      The choices will go beyond a simple yes/no also.  You could have easy
> interface with no FTL, or hard interface with easy FTL, and so forth.  You
> could put your choices in a grid of sorts:
>
> Universe     Interface                 FTL
>
> Traveller    easy (contra-grav)        yes, medium (jump limits, fuel)
>
> 2300 AD      medium (bean stalks,      yes, easy (stutter warp)
>               shuttles, mass drivers)
>
> Niven's      medium (shuttles,         no, STL slowboats
> ARM series    mass drivers)

This would be interesting to see expanded to include other
fictional settings.

  Weber's
  H.Harrington  easy (?)                 yes, warshawski sails (>>c)
                (ships attain 100's g's in system)

Thinking about Niven's Beowulf Schaeffer and his months-long trip to the
core of the galaxy (for the FTL part) and not remembering any details from
those stories about getting into space, makes me think that many
stories/settings gloss over the interface portion.  Might make the above
a short list (with many variations on the FTL part I suppose).

Has Dr. Forward ever used his skyhook/pinwheel idea in a story as a space
interface?

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 08:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed May 22 07:42:03 2002
Subject: Aubry books - RE: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEELHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205220707260.14537-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Frank Pitt wrote:

> BTW, has anyone mentioned here yet that Russell Crowe's next film
> is
> with Peter Weir, and is based on Patrick O'Brien's Jack Aubry
> books ?

AHH! You are kidding, right?  Don't get my hopes up for
nothing...  I love those books - they could make good movies.
Mr. Crowe as a blond, burly, English fighting captain?
Mr. Weir as the half-Irish, half-Catalan, multifacted spy Dr. Maturin?

I just found this:
"Master and Commander has been optioned by the Samuel Goldwyn Company to
be made into a feature film. They are still very much in the planning and
discussion stages."

I want to see him wearing his chellenk.  Guess it's time to reread them.

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 08:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed May 22 07:52:02 2002
Subject: Aubry books - RE: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so
 now what?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205220707260.14537-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B910FE92.5C6AC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/22/02 7:41 AM, Rob Davenport at rgd@travellercentral.com wrote:

> AHH! You are kidding, right?  Don't get my hopes up for
> nothing...  I love those books - they could make good movies.
> Mr. Crowe as a blond, burly, English fighting captain?
> Mr. Weir as the half-Irish, half-Catalan, multifacted spy Dr. Maturin?
> 
> I just found this:
> "Master and Commander has been optioned by the Samuel Goldwyn Company to
> be made into a feature film. They are still very much in the planning and
> discussion stages."
> 
> I want to see him wearing his chellenk.  Guess it's time to reread them.

The Aubrey/Maturin books are so rich with detail and plot that the movie, if
one is made, is bound to disappoint.  There's just so much one can do in a
two hour film, and I fear that O'Brien's books are too period.  They'd
doubtless be made 'more accessable' by the filmmakers to appeal to a broader
audience.  I expect the money people would see this as an action
swashbuckler and view the target audience as teenagers, with all that
implies.

One can always hope, but I'm setting my expectations low.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 09:00:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed May 22 08:00:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RW Genetic Engineering
In-Reply-To: <E17ARFV-00072Y-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20020522072905.CECC8279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020522075607.009ee080@mindspring.com>

At 01:11 AM 5/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Check out-
>
>(pre-plucked chickens)
>http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id
>=590366&in_review_text_id=558671

You can't fool me, those things are cockatrices.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 09:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed May 22 08:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : ER Freaks
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOGEGMCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020522075842.009f4a90@mindspring.com>

At 08:37 PM 5/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Mmm. Apart from various catheters and tubes, there's not a lot of crossover
>between the various OTU physiologies. Stocking a hospital pharmacy in the 3I
>must be a nightmare...

Well, most ERs would stock for what they are likely to see.  In Regina, 
that's Humans and Vargr, with the occasional Zhodani with their weird blood 
types. A minimal stock of supplies would be locked in a supply cabinet 
somewhere "just in case." ER physicians would be trained to treat the 
common visitors, and with luck be able to handle the oddities that come 
through the door.

Adventure idea for the Regina Down Emergency Clinic: An Aslan is brought in 
after a serious accident. He needs immediate surgery, and there is no one 
available familiar with Aslan physiology. Turns out this is the ko of a 
prominent aihry (pride) on Regina to negotiate trade agreements. Help is 
coming, but he needs to have something done *now*.  Pity the emergency low 
berths are down...

So while the trauma surgeon tries to stabilize the patient while reading a 
book on Aslan anatomy, the wounded ko's family begins crowding the waiting 
area. They are suspicious, angry, and ready to rumble.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 09:14:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed May 22 08:14:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Doug has to see this :)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C373F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

http://www.alltraders.com/
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 09:16:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Wed May 22 08:16:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Interstellar travel
Message-ID: <OF174CA54A.3A303AB6-ON42256BC1.005227D2@ko.com>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

"First, if you can make fusion work in a Bussard ramjet, you can make it
work in small reactors. Which means getting into orbit *is* cheap.
Unavoidable. As a worst case, you use the reactort to superheat plain
old hydrogen to iunsane temps and use that as the exhaust. You'll get
exhaust velocities *way* above what we get from chemical rockets, which
means that they'll use a *lot* less fuel."

Greetings Mr Erickson

I'm sold - what you are saying is that to have a workable means of
interstellar travel necessitates having an easy interface system. Any
limitations on getting into orbit would be political or social, but not due
to economics.

Given your information about the bussard ramjet, what would you suggest is
a viable form of propulsion at relativistic velocities across interstellar
distances? Anti-matter, if humanity finds a way to mass-produce it?

In Trillion Credit Squadron, the Islands Cluster was colonised by slower
than light ships from Earth. Does anyone have an inkling about their
propulsion systems?

Regards

Clint Rynners


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 09:30:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed May 22 08:30:25 2002
Subject: Aubry books - RE: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now
 what?
In-Reply-To: <B910FE92.5C6AC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205220757370.14537-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> The Aubrey/Maturin books are so rich with detail and plot that the movie, if
> one is made, is bound to disappoint.  There's just so much one can do in a
> two hour film, and I fear that O'Brien's books are too period.  They'd
> doubtless be made 'more accessable' by the filmmakers to appeal to a broader
> audience.  I expect the money people would see this as an action
> swashbuckler and view the target audience as teenagers, with all that
> implies.
>
> One can always hope, but I'm setting my expectations low.

True, and I don't disagree.  I haven't really set my expectations of
Hollywood movies very high at all for many years, but like many Hollywood
movies these days, I don't look for *good* movies, but good visuals, and
atmosphere - something to present all the little details I can't always
put together in my imagination while reading the book.  To give me a
better feel for the setting, a more visceral impression to carry with me
as I (re-)read the stories.

I thought the Lord of the Rings movie was very good for that.  Sure
there's a ton of detail that couldn't be included (even with only doing
the first book), but the feel was good.  And I'm not saying that that
particular visual interpretation would become my only one, but hey, if
it's there I'd like to see it and experience it. The good books and
stories will never translate perfectly or even well enough to satisfy a
majority of grognards, but they can be fun.  (Of course, then there are
works like the D&D movie that I had to really shut off my mind to
enjoy much...)

I know I adjusted my impressions of Hornblower's milieu after seeing some
of the series on A&E - the marine uniforms were particularly impressive
compared to my imagination having not seen them outside of sketches, and I
had heard they were fairly correct detail-wise with them. It also inspires
me to learn more about that period, or read the original book/story for
other movies. Things like that.

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 09:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May 22 08:34:03 2002
Subject: Aubry books - RE: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, sonow what?
Message-ID: <200205221529.GUW01617@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I would much rather see the Robert Frezza series (A Small 
Colonial War, Fire in a Faraway Place, Cain's Land) made into 
movies.

Then again, there's the problem with detail, and character 
development.

Was it just me, or was the latest SW movie badly, badly 
written?  Who in the H_ll is Count Dooku?  And that little 
meeting on Naboo, where they complain that "so and so" is 
still in some important position?  

Details thrown around without a story arc, set against a 
backdrop of eye candy - this is the fate of most SF works 
when turned into movies.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 09:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May 22 08:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Interstellar travel
Message-ID: <200205221542.GUW03782@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

In books by Charles Pellegrino, he details that it's 
hideously expensive to accumulate anti-matter - very 
inefficient, in fact.

But if we have the capability to produce solar power arrays 
on the surface of the moon, or in deep space, he proposes 
that we build particle accelerators and dedicated solar 
arrays for the purpose of accumulating anti-matter.  
Inefficient, yes - impossible, no.  No more impractical, in 
some sense, than using a solar cell to charge a battery.  
Batteries are nowhere near as efficient as direct power 
production by chemical or nuclear means, but we still make, 
use, and charge batteries.  Antimatter is just a very high 
density power storage system.

It's another major leap past that to a practical anti-matter 
engine (the proposed "beamed core" antimatter engine, for 
instance).  I'm still wondering how you run something that 
hot without vaporizing the vessel.  At those energy levels, 
even a fraction of a percent of the engine output as waste 
heat would volatilize the entire ship.

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 10:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed May 22 09:01:02 2002
Subject: Aubry books - RE: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, sonow
 what?
In-Reply-To: <200205221529.GUW01617@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205220855080.14537-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Wed, 22 May 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> I would much rather see the Robert Frezza series (A Small
> Colonial War, Fire in a Faraway Place, Cain's Land) made into
> movies.

Haven't heard of that one.  Will have to try them.  Thanks.

> Then again, there's the problem with detail, and character
> development.
>
> Was it just me, or was the latest SW movie badly, badly
> written?  Who in the H_ll is Count Dooku?  And that little
> meeting on Naboo, where they complain that "so and so" is
> still in some important position?

(covering eyes against spoilers, having not seen that yet)

> Details thrown around without a story arc, set against a
> backdrop of eye candy - this is the fate of most SF works
> when turned into movies.

As Tod said, most stories with lots of detail have trouble when made into
movies. I just saw "Titan A.E." which was a movie I actually had moderate
hopes for, and had to really turn off the brain to enjoy.  (Should've
known since I'd not seen any buzz since it hit the theaters [or should've
heard the thud with which it surely hit them].)

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 10:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed May 22 09:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Interstellar travel
In-Reply-To: <200205221542.GUW03782@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205220902030.14537-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Wed, 22 May 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> In books by Charles Pellegrino, he details that it's
> hideously expensive to accumulate anti-matter - very
> inefficient, in fact.
>
> But if we have the capability to produce solar power arrays
> on the surface of the moon, or in deep space, he proposes
> that we build particle accelerators and dedicated solar
> arrays for the purpose of accumulating anti-matter.

I believe Dr. Forward also proposed this in one of his books.
"Indistinguishable from Magic", IIRC.

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 10:56:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed May 22 09:56:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Steve Jackson Games Server Outage?
In-Reply-To: <NEBBLHIOOLHLBLNHKKOOKEGMCEAA.robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1022086478.7419.ajackson@ping>

Robert O'Connor writes:
> Has anyone successfully logged on to the SJG website, Pyramid, or the
> playtest
> lists in the last 48 hours?

Yes.  I haven't seen any outages.  Possibly some nameservice issues?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 11:00:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed May 22 10:00:50 2002
Subject: [TML] TNS at JTAS
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEDGEIAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <3CEBCDD6.7050506@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Antony Farrell wrote:
> A break-up of the Solomani Confederation?
>  Whether the
> imperium would intervene would be interesting, based on the premise that one
> way to unite people who hate each other is to present a common threat. I
> think it unlikely that the majority of the inhabitants of the Solomani
> Confederation would want to become part of the "stagnant" conservative
> imperium.

Uhh, first that whole 'Stagnant Imperium' thing is sollie propaganda.

Whether or not the people actually believe that is another kettle of 
fish entirely.

Besides, give 'em a few years of MT-style Hard Times, and a glimse of a 
better life under Imperial rule, they'll welcome the Impies with open 
arms, parades and the keys to the city.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 11:09:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Wed May 22 10:09:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Doug has to see this :)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C373F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEHMDOAA.tml@jtas.org>

Looks like they have a rotating banner. You may have to hit F5 several times
until you get the "Stand out from the crowd" headline. All of the headlines
are pretty good. :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of DeGraff, Jesse
>
> http://www.alltraders.com/
> Jesse



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 11:15:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed May 22 10:15:06 2002
Subject: [TML] TNS at JTAS
In-Reply-To: <3CEBCDD6.7050506@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B9111F8D.5C6F4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/22/02 9:56 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

> Uhh, first that whole 'Stagnant Imperium' thing is sollie propaganda.
> 
> Whether or not the people actually believe that is another kettle of
> fish entirely.
> 
> Besides, give 'em a few years of MT-style Hard Times, and a glimse of a
> better life under Imperial rule, they'll welcome the Impies with open
> arms, parades and the keys to the city.

Hah!  Imperial propaganda.  No Trueman will suffer to live under the corrupt
and useless Imperial nobility.  Better to live free!

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 11:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed May 22 10:27:08 2002
Subject: [TML] TNS at JTAS
In-Reply-To: <3CEBCDD6.7050506@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1022088407.6838.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
> Uhh, first that whole 'Stagnant Imperium' thing is sollie propaganda.

It is?  It looks fairly obviously true to me, though it's propaganda for the
Sollies to think they're better.  There's no powers in Traveller that don't
seem to be stagnant for one reason or another.
> 
> Besides, give 'em a few years of MT-style Hard Times, and a glimse of a 
> better life under Imperial rule, they'll welcome the Impies with open 
> arms, parades and the keys to the city.

No guarantee they'd have MT-style troubles, though.  Frankly, most worlds would
look on the Impies as just another invader; no worse than another warlord, but
no better either.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 11:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed May 22 10:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Bun-bun knows Grav-Pong Fu!
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020522133454.00b90c10@mail.charter.net>

<http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=3D010723>



-----------------------------------------------
"Our challenge is much more pervasive than it would be if we were just=20
facing one enemy in one place.
[Instead there is] the Middle East, Iraq, North Korea, Iran. There's a=20
relatively long list that we believe
are linked to the al Qaeda network =97 in the Philippines, in Indonesia and=
=20
in Yemen and other places.
That makes it very clear that this is a global network."  =97 Hillary Rodham=
=20
Clinton,  Dix Hills, N.Y.
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
-----------------------------------------------


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 11:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed May 22 10:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TNS at JTAS
References: <B9111F8D.5C6F4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CEBD637.1040309@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 5/22/02 9:56 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:
> 
> 
>>Uhh, first that whole 'Stagnant Imperium' thing is sollie propaganda.
>>
>>Whether or not the people actually believe that is another kettle of
>>fish entirely.
>>
>>Besides, give 'em a few years of MT-style Hard Times, and a glimse of a
>>better life under Imperial rule, they'll welcome the Impies with open
>>arms, parades and the keys to the city.
> 
> 
> Hah!  Imperial propaganda.  No Trueman will suffer to live under the corrupt
> and useless Imperial nobility.  Better to live free!

Okey-dokey monkeyboy.

Let's just wait until *after* some of your oh-so-superior fellow 
troohoomans bomb you for six months and you're reduced to eating bugs.

The *bad* tasting ones, because you already ate all the *good* tasting ones.

And someone just used the last Tabasco sauce for five parsecs...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 13:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Mellman)
Date: Wed May 22 12:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Darrian stellar probe shielding - what did they use?
Message-ID: <200205221904.PAA07166@shell.cinternet.net>

How did the Darrians shield the two probes which eventually put their
star into Supernova?  Was this considered above TL15?  

Along similar lines, does anyone remember the basics behind flickering
BGG's.

I guess what I'm wondering about is if there is anything in CT which
would allow one of the Star Trek scenes where, I think it's Warf's
brother, brings his ship to essentially the surface of a star in order
to cause some sort of disruption that ends up frying the two pursuers
behind him.  All plausibility aside it certainly was a cool scene.

It also got me to wondering about hydrogen skimming from a stars
surface.  What kind of OT TL would that require?

Any thoughts anyone?


b

 ...........................................................................
  Bill Mellman
  mailto:tml@idbin.com
  http://www.mellman.net/bill/
  http://www.geocities.com/mellmanw/Traveller
 ...........................................................................

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 13:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May 22 12:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: RW Genetic Engineering
Message-ID: <12c.11c10ff7.2a1d4b14@aol.com>

In a message dated 5/22/02 6:48:59 AM, tml-request@travellercentral.com 
writes:

>(pre-plucked chickens)
>http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id
>=590366&in_review_text_id=558671
>
>It makes you wonder what weirdly modified creatures TL 15 
>societies use for food animals (among those that don't just use 
>carniculture vats).

While they weren't presented as a food animal, I have a fondness for the 
"cat" from Bujold's "Brothers in Arms"...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 13:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed May 22 12:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Aubry books
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA2285F@USCHM203>

Hands up who'd like to see Harry Harrison's Deathworld Trilogy made into a
movie?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 13:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May 22 12:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Interstellar travel
In-Reply-To: <20020522190111.3FE51279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17Ac7a-0004ay-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

"Clint Rynners" <crynners@afr.ko.com> wrote:

> Given your information about the bussard ramjet, what would you
> suggest is a viable form of propulsion at relativistic velocities
> across interstellar distances? Anti-matter, if humanity finds a way to
> mass-produce it?

I'd do a combination:  A bussard ramjet with antimatter injected 
into the hydrogen flow.  You could achieve a far higher ISP is you 
did that right - fusion converts a bit less than 1% of the hydrogen 
involved into energy.  If you raised the conversion ration to maybe 5-
10% by adding in 5-10% antimatter you'd likely have a pretty good 
drive and the fuel requirements still wouldn't be horrible since you 
only need to carry along the antimatter.

For an even better mass ratio, you can also likely use a ramjet as 
a mag sail for braking and with a good-sized sail and lots of power 
(and if you have antimatter you have *lots* of power) you can get 
some serious deceleration (up to 1 G) when you are decelerating in 
the relativistic range.  Once you get down below maybe 5% C you 
will need another method of deceleration if you want to do so 
quickly.

I don't have the data to determine the top speed or anything, but I'm 
guessing you might well be able to get 30-50% C with such a 
system.   

Alternately, you could follow in the footsteps of worthies like 
Stephen Baxter and simply posit the existence of a drive that can 
convert matter to energy w/o needing antimatter (in his novels he 
calls it the GUT [for Grand Unified Theory] drive).  This sort of thing 
is likely possible, if also quite high tech.  If you have those sorts of 
drives, then relativistic travel is simple and the ships will simply 
accelerate at 1-G to the halfway point and then decelerate at 1-G 
(with higher accelerations possible if you either have some method 
of acceleration compensation or if you completely automate the 
ship and put the passengers and crew in the cryofreeze for the 
duration of the relativistic portion of the journey).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 14:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed May 22 13:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Aubry books
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA2285F@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020522201340.65207.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

Maybe the Deathworld books, but if you find the right
actor, I would LOVE to see the Stainless Steel Rat in
film.  I think the right director could do it very
well too.  But who to play the Rat???


--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> Hands up who'd like to see Harry Harrison's
> Deathworld Trilogy made into a
> movie?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 14:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed May 22 13:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Doug has to see this :)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3744@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Whoops!  Didn't notice that!  I'm talking about the penguin of course ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin [mailto:tml@jtas.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:08 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Doug has to see this :)


Looks like they have a rotating banner. You may have to hit F5 several times
until you get the "Stand out from the crowd" headline. All of the headlines
are pretty good. :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of DeGraff, Jesse
>
> http://www.alltraders.com/
> Jesse


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 15:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed May 22 14:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Aubry books
References: <20020522201340.65207.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CEC08FB.5080501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Paul Walker wrote:
> Maybe the Deathworld books, but if you find the right
> actor, I would LOVE to see the Stainless Steel Rat in
> film.  I think the right director could do it very
> well too.  But who to play the Rat???

Kevin Spacey, possibly Ben Afflek as a younger version.

(Be interesting to see how Afflek handles the Jack Ryan role in SOAF...I 
suspect he'll be the better of the three so far.)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 17:08:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 22 16:08:26 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEELHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Message-ID: <20522.151125.3I8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote :
>>> Of course, most modern text documents are bigger
>>> than what you can fit in the memory of a standard
>>> DOS machine (only 16K, originally, and only designed
>>> to handle a max of 64K) as well.
>>
>> The max of 64k was 64k ON THE MOTHERBOARD, not 64k total.
>
> True, I missed a zero.
>
>> The 486DX-66 I use for things like sending and
>> receiving email has 64 *meg* of RAM. And runs DR-DOS 7.
>
> So why aren't you runnning Linux on it?
> <grin>

Because the BBS and Fidonet software that *also* runs on the box don't
run under Linux?

> Have you tried DR-DOS 8 ?
> It's given away free, and comes with a fully graphical browser,
> quite a good fast one too, and was designed for use in bespoke
> airport internet terminals and the like.

I haven't seen that anywhere. got a URL?

> <snip>
>> Why *waste* a Pentium class system on a dial-up uucp
>> connection and other similar tasks?
>
> Because they're not much use for anything else ?
> You need at least a Pentium III to do anything useful these days.
> <grin>

What's that in AMD chips? I'm running a couple of K6-2/500 systems, and
others ranging down from there.

>> I'm running a *number* of systems here. With various
>> OSes. Netware, OS/2, DR-DOS, Windows 98SE, Mac OS,
>
> Then you _can_ view PDF's, even without your DOS machine,
> so stop complaining!

Yeah, but I have to move them to a different box. <g>

>> Win CE,
>
> Good name that, huh?

It's not that bad. When I had a "dispute" with the phone company a few
days back, I was able to log into my ISP with that system by going over
to a friend's place.

> Thanks, but I think I already have a binary image of them
> somewhere on my archive DVDs
> (only $500 US or less for a DVD writer these days), you can store
> the entire software repertoire of most pre-90's computers on one
> of them.

Hell, you only need a CD for that...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 17:11:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 22 16:11:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205220623330.14537-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20522.152339.2B6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, 22 May 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> For reference, the delta-V (total velocity change) a rocket can give is
>>
>> dV = Ev * ln(mr)
>
> Thanks for the reference - I always like a post with formulae to wrap my
> head around the ideas therein!  It helps, even as a refresher.
>
>> So a big increase in exhaust velocity means a *huge* decrease in mass
>> ratio. Which means a huge increase in payload *and* a big drop in the
>> amount of fuel required for a given mass of payload.
>>
>> Given fusion, getting into orbit is going to be easy.
>
> Would there be potentially serious environmental impacts from this?
> With enough ships going up, sure, but in general is it harmful?
> (Acceptable as a handwave to get the feel he wants?)  What is in the
> exhaust/immediate byproducts from a fusion drive?

Well, the type I described is "fusion *heating*" rather than straight
fusion. So the exhaust is pure hydrogen, which until you get *way* up
in the atmosphere will react fairly immediately with oxygen to form
water.

And if you use "straight" fusion (and remember, to make a Bussard
ramjet work, you have to be able to fusion "protium" (ie H1) not merely
stuff like deuterium, tritium, etc) the only difference will be some
added helium.

>> The second problem is that the top speed of a Bussard ramjet turns out
>> to be too low to be useful. The top speed is reached when the drag from
>> scooping up the hydrogen equals the thrust you can get from fusing said
>> hydrogen.
>>
>> The limit looks to be a few percent of light speed. Which means you
>> lose the time dilation advantage. And a trip to the nearest star will
>> take *centuries*.
>
> Always wondered about that in Niven's Ringworld stories.

Back then it was thought that the limit was *near* the speed of light.
Then someone actually did the math. :-(

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 17:13:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 22 16:13:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205220630280.14537-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20522.152943.4w6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Has Dr. Forward ever used his skyhook/pinwheel idea in a story as a space
> interface?

Yes, the last(?) one of the stories set around Barnard's Star. 

And Fred Pohl used the Lofstrom Launch Loop in one of the books in the
Gateway series. (I mention this because I know Keith Lofstrom :-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 17:32:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed May 22 16:32:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <20522.152339.2B6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1022110198.3010.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Well, the type I described is "fusion *heating*" rather than straight
> fusion. So the exhaust is pure hydrogen, which until you get *way* up
> in the atmosphere will react fairly immediately with oxygen to form
> water.

Though it's at high enough energies that you'll probably produce a variety of
free radicals as well.  Dumping large amounts of energy into the atmosphere
will have consequences, though as long as you keep the Isp fairly modest (a few
thousand, which is a reasonable limit for a thermal rocket anyway) the
consequences won't be all that exciting.

If you're really moving large amounts of mass up and down, a beanstalk is going
to be the most environmentally friendly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 17:40:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Wed May 22 16:40:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Steve Jackson Games Server Outage?
In-Reply-To: <005101c20192$2b82a370$0f01a8c0@terry>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPCEOIDKAA.max200@lanset.com>

I find that the SJG site goes down fairly regularly. It happens
semi-regularly. I've always attributed it to updates, but I really have no
idea why it actually happens. I like to think that it's because my friend,
Jefferson Krogh, no longer works for SJG!! :)

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 6:11 AM
Subject: RE: [TML] Steve Jackson Games Server Outage?
> Has anyone successfully logged on to the SJG website, Pyramid, or the
> playtest lists in the last 48 hours?
>
> I haven't. I wonder if the problem is at my end or in Austin, TX...
>>> It's down for me as well, including the JTAS site.
>>> Terry



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 17:44:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed May 22 16:44:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <20522.152943.4w6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020522234121.15381279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/22/02 at 03:29 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>In mail you write:

>> Has Dr. Forward ever used his skyhook/pinwheel idea in a story as a space
>> interface?

Not to slight Bob Forward, but there's an italian scientist connected
to the "tumbling walking stick / skyhook" idea somehow or other. I
vaguely remember reading an article siting him in either Analog or Ad
Astra magazine.

>Yes, the last(?) one of the stories set around Barnard's Star. 

>And Fred Pohl used the Lofstrom Launch Loop in one of the books in
>the Gateway series. (I mention this because I know Keith Lofstrom :-)

I remember a story in Analog, back in the...early 90's?...based around
the skyhook. Well, I remember there *was* a story, but I can't for the
life of me remember anything about the plot.  

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 18:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 22 17:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Interstellar travel
In-Reply-To: <OF174CA54A.3A303AB6-ON42256BC1.005227D2@ko.com>
Message-ID: <20522.163649.7A9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> "First, if you can make fusion work in a Bussard ramjet, you can make it
> work in small reactors. Which means getting into orbit *is* cheap.
> Unavoidable. As a worst case, you use the reactort to superheat plain
> old hydrogen to iunsane temps and use that as the exhaust. You'll get
> exhaust velocities *way* above what we get from chemical rockets, which
> means that they'll use a *lot* less fuel."
>
> Greetings Mr Erickson
>
> I'm sold - what you are saying is that to have a workable means of
> interstellar travel necessitates having an easy interface system. Any
> limitations on getting into orbit would be political or social, but not due
> to economics.
>
> Given your information about the bussard ramjet, what would you suggest is
> a viable form of propulsion at relativistic velocities across interstellar
> distances? Anti-matter, if humanity finds a way to mass-produce it?

Even with antimatter, reaching relativistic velocities is *expensive*. 

To do so *practically*, I think we'd need some major breakthroughs
somewhere. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 18:14:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 22 17:14:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Interstellar travel
In-Reply-To: <E17Ac7a-0004ay-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20522.163320.3Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Clint Rynners" <crynners@afr.ko.com> wrote:
>
>> Given your information about the bussard ramjet, what would you
>> suggest is a viable form of propulsion at relativistic velocities
>> across interstellar distances? Anti-matter, if humanity finds a way to
>> mass-produce it?
>
> I'd do a combination:  A bussard ramjet with antimatter injected 
> into the hydrogen flow.  You could achieve a far higher ISP is you 
> did that right - fusion converts a bit less than 1% of the hydrogen 
> involved into energy.

Try closer to 0.1 %.

> If you raised the conversion ration to maybe 5-
> 10% by adding in 5-10% antimatter you'd likely have a pretty good 
> drive and the fuel requirements still wouldn't be horrible since you 
> only need to carry along the antimatter.

Actually, given the drag of the scoop, it might be better to just carry
hydrogen fuel *and* Antimatter.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 18:17:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 22 17:17:29 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Fly (China) to the Moon
In-Reply-To: <20020522182650.A9450@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20522.165133.7k8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> And with no indigenous mining ability for the raw meaty ores like
>> iron they would in turn be rooted if they got cut off from
>> interstellar trade.
>
> Iron's dead easy to find, and not difficult to refine.  That's why the
> Iron Age came before the Industrial Revolution :)
>
> If a planet doesn't already have iron mines, I expect they could
> develop some well before they started to run out.  Re-smelting scrap
> metal would do for a start, while they're still ramping up production.

Heck, assuming an earthlike world, just rig up a dredge on a good
sandbar and magnetically seperate the magnetite from the rest of the
sand. That's *high* grade ore. 

With a bit more work you can also use various tricks to seperate the
high density fraction of the sand & gravel. That gets you stuff like
monazite sand and gold. 

That high density fraction is rich in a *lot* of metals. 

Oh yeah, the "rare earth metals" aren't particularly rare. Just hard to
*seperate*. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 18:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May 22 17:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Steve Jackson Games Server Outage?
Message-ID: <e5.1865591b.2a1d9784@aol.com>

>Has anyone successfully logged on to the SJG website, Pyramid, or the
>playtest
>lists in the last 48 hours?
>
>I haven't. I wonder if the problem is at my end or in Austin, TX...

We were down from about 4:30 AM to 10:00 AM our time this morning (I'm not 
sure if it was us or the ISP). Things were OK when I left at 5:00.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 19:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May 22 18:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Interstellar travel
Message-ID: <200205230100.GVO03819@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

shadow@krypton.rain.com says
>Even with antimatter, reaching relativistic velocities is 
>*expensive*. 
>
>To do so *practically*, I think we'd need some major 
>breakthroughs somewhere. 
>

Well, we can always hope for the powerplant that taps quantum 
fluctuations (in many SF works, but notably in that Arthur C. 
Clarke pice, The Songs of Distant Earth).
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 19:09:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed May 22 18:09:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
References: <20020522072905.CECC8279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005f01c201f6$ec124c80$fe5d8690@computer>

> From: "Clint Rynners"
> If you have ever played Paranoia, you would know that spurious logic is an
> excellent survival skill.

Pretty handy in the real world too!  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 22 20:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 22 19:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1022110198.3010.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20522.185355.9d8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>> Well, the type I described is "fusion *heating*" rather than straight
>> fusion. So the exhaust is pure hydrogen, which until you get *way* up
>> in the atmosphere will react fairly immediately with oxygen to form
>> water.
>
> Though it's at high enough energies that you'll probably produce a
> variety of free radicals as well.  Dumping large amounts of energy
> into the atmosphere will have consequences, though as long as you
> keep the Isp fairly modest (a few thousand, which is a reasonable
> limit for a thermal rocket anyway) the consequences won't be all that
> exciting.
>
> If you're really moving large amounts of mass up and down, a
> beanstalk is going to be the most environmentally friendly.

Skyhooks and launch loops are viable for medium levels, and can be
built with current tech.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 05:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu May 23 04:38:03 2002
Subject: Aubry books - RE: [TML] hey, it's an unsolicited piece, so now what?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205220707260.14537-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEFMHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

Rob Davenport wrote:
> AHH! You are kidding, right?  Don't get my hopes up for
> nothing...  I love those books - they could make good movies.
> Mr. Crowe as a blond, burly, English fighting captain?
> Mr. Weir as the half-Irish, half-Catalan, multifacted
> spy Dr. Maturin?

Almost right. Peter Wier is the (Australian) Director.

Paul Bettany (who played Crowe's imaginary room-mate in "A
Beautiful Mind" is cast as Maturin.

Here's some links :

http://www.murphsplace.com/crowe/aubrey/main.html
http://www.peterweircave.com/master/

For those with fears on the reproduction, remember, Peter Wier is
the director resoponsible for :

"The Truman Show", "Dead Poets Society", "Green Card", "Witness",
"The Year of Living Dangerously",  "Gallipoli" "Picnic at Hanging
Rock",
and the SF classic<grin> "The Cars that Ate Paris"

Also, I just heard that Tom Stoppard is doing the adaptation to
screen (for those who are familiar with English theatre)

Frankue



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 05:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Thu May 23 04:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <200205200359.g4K3xwh01487@localhost.uia.net>
Message-ID: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEEEICIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>

> > As for the holy grail of HAL, and having him play chess with 
> > us while running a ship, having a personality, and discussing 
> > birthdays - that's probably crap, and will never really 
> > happen.
> 
> 
> 
The programmers will likely ADD a personality to AI's to make
humans more comfortable interacting with them.

-SRS-

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 06:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu May 23 05:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Darrian stellar probe shielding - what did they use?
In-Reply-To: <200205221904.PAA07166@shell.cinternet.net>
References: <200205221904.PAA07166@shell.cinternet.net>
Message-ID: <20020523202429.A12224@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bill Mellman wrote:
> It also got me to wondering about hydrogen skimming from a stars
> surface.  What kind of OT TL would that require?

I don't think it could be done in the OTU prior to TNE or GUPRS.
Contragravity and thrust were limited to (I believe) 6 gees, and the
surface gravity of our Sun is about 30 gees.  In other words, it's a
one-way trip -- once you're there, you can't get back out again or
even stay at the same height.  (Given the power consumptions of OTU
ships in a few design systems, thermal flux is not a problem even at
minimum interstellar tech levels.)

Although it does in some way depend upon what you mean by "skimming"
and "star".  A Traveller ship could certainly fly through the stellar
envelope of a red giant, but the gas is so tenuous that it would be a
stretch to call it "skimming".  Likewise you could pick up stellar
hydrogen being ejected from the Sun, even at Earth orbit -- is that
skimming?

With use of technology not mentioned in any books, it would probably
be possible.  We know that HEPlaR has truly insane exhaust energy, and
can be controlled extremely well.  The much lower energy plasma near
the surface of a star should be a cinch to manipulate using something
similar to whatever technology protects the ship from HEPlaR exhaust.
Could it collect meaningful amounts of hydrogen?  I have not the
foggiest idea.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 07:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu May 23 06:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Aubry books
In-Reply-To: <3CEC08FB.5080501@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020523130327.20350.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

As much as I love Spacey, he doesn't seem right for
the role.  DiGriz is active and I see Spacey as
sedentary.

I think Afflek could pull off the role if they started
with the younger books.  My ideal actor for the Bishop
was William Conrad, but since that is no longer a
possibility, I would opt for Eddie Jones (Invisible
Man), or someone like it.

Of course, that may just be residual effect of the
similarities I saw between Darien's voice overs and
the DiGriz monologues.

If they made the first book, I could see Angelina
Jolie as Angelique.  But at that point, you have to
cast Inskipp and He as well as the Dr. and more.  The
casting becomes more important than if you start from
the beginning.

In any case, I think it would be a great movie or
series of movies.

Paul

--- Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
wrote:
> Paul Walker wrote:
> > Maybe the Deathworld books, but if you find the
> right
> > actor, I would LOVE to see the Stainless Steel Rat
> in
> > film.  I think the right director could do it very
> > well too.  But who to play the Rat???
> 
> Kevin Spacey, possibly Ben Afflek as a younger
> version.
> 
> (Be interesting to see how Afflek handles the Jack
> Ryan role in SOAF...I 
> suspect he'll be the better of the three so far.)
> 
> -- 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
> 
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 07:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu May 23 06:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Baycon Nightmare
Message-ID: <20020523133009.90119.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

I had a nightmare about Baycon last night.  You have
to understand, that being on the east coast, I drool
over the thought of an opportunity to go to such a
magnificent event.

In any case, my family and I went to the mall with my
parents.  It turned out that it was time for Baycon at
this mall.  I was excited, because I had never gotten
to go.  But I was amazed, because we weren't in San
Francisco, CA, but we were in Mobile, Alabama (Yes,
they also have a bay).  In any case, I was very upset
that all these years I had assumed Baycon meant San
Francisco and I had really been missing out on
something that was comparitively in my back yard.

No, the nightmare part wasn't that it was in Alabama! 
Anyway, my family and I split up and while we were
arranging where to meet, my older son (who was
splitting with me) went to the rest room.  Well, after
the discussion, I went to the gaming area, failing to
meet my son at the Food Court where I was supposed to
meet him.

No, loosing my son was not the nightmare part either. 
Being an obedient and smart child (hey its a dream), I
knew right where he was.  He was waiting for me where
I told him to wait.I got on a cell phone and somehow
(hey its a dream) I was listening to my wife and my
son talk.  I had the operator break in so I could tell
my son I was on my way to meet him.  I left the gaming
area and went to meet him.

Now, the nightmare part.  When I got back to the
gaming area it seems that all of the games had been
started and I wasn't able to join in any of them.  I
was too late. :(

So, remember all you west coasters.  When you go to
Baycon, play a game for me.

Paul



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 07:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu May 23 06:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Subject: Re: Stainless Steel and Deathworld
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA2286D@USCHM203>

What about John Cusack as DiGriz? 
As far as Deathworld, Schwarzenegger is a shoo-in to play Kirk Pyrrus.
Jason DinAlt is a tough call. Ah hell, get John Cusack. He's been a
convincing soldier, grifter, and ... well, whatever he was in "one Crazy
Summer" and that other movie with the "TWO DOLLARS" line.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 08:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu May 23 07:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Bun-bun knows Grav-Pong Fu!
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3030C3740@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Somebody's been reading back issues....

Great, ain't it :D

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 08:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu May 23 07:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <20522.152339.2B6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205230708150.17415-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>


On Wed, 22 May 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Well, the type I described is "fusion *heating*" rather than straight
> fusion. So the exhaust is pure hydrogen, which until you get *way* up
> in the atmosphere will react fairly immediately with oxygen to form
> water.
>
> And if you use "straight" fusion (and remember, to make a Bussard
> ramjet work, you have to be able to fusion "protium" (ie H1) not merely
> stuff like deuterium, tritium, etc) the only difference will be some
> added helium.

Pardon my denseness in continuing this, but I'd like to understand
it better.  Please correct me where I'm wrong here:

The fusion heating you're talking about means fusing some of the H1 fuel
which releases energy (and particles, no?) which heats the additional fuel
to high temps which when allowed to exit the engine as exhaust give a high
specific impulse, and hence lift. Thus the fuel becomes the exhaust and
the H1 combines with O to make water (as it cools?).

Straight fusion would fuse the H1 into He(?) which then becomes the
exhaust with a different Isp.

So if we started using these drives for thousands of launches per year,
we'd soon either have a water world with no oxygen, or all be talking
in high squeaky voices.  ;)

> > Always wondered about that in Niven's Ringworld stories.
>
> Back then it was thought that the limit was *near* the speed of light.
> Then someone actually did the math. :-(

The drag of capturing the hydrogen is that great, eh?

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 08:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Thu May 23 07:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Interstellar travel
References: <OF174CA54A.3A303AB6-ON42256BC1.005227D2@ko.com>
Message-ID: <3CECF959.8000908@magpiesnest.co.uk>

Clint Rynners wrote:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> "First, if you can make fusion work in a Bussard ramjet, you can make it
> work in small reactors. Which means getting into orbit *is* cheap.
[snip]

> 
> Greetings Mr Erickson
> 
[snip]

> 
> Given your information about the bussard ramjet, what would you suggest is
> a viable form of propulsion at relativistic velocities across interstellar
> distances? Anti-matter, if humanity finds a way to mass-produce it?
> 
Well....except for a couple of minor points:


1. Bussards will work because they funnell and awfull lot of hydrogen 
into an awfull small point - which makes it hot enough to fuse - and 
then just lets it go BANG!!

2. A reactor, on the other hand, has to be *provided* with hydrogen 
and that means that you need a pump that can get the hydrogen into the 
reactor agains the force of the reaction trying to blow it the other 
way - and that is sort of tricky.

3. Not only that, but rather then just pushing it into a small space 
and letting it go BANG!! a reactor has to *contain* the explosion so 
that the energy can be pulled out of the reactor. Of course, that 
means you have to have a method of pulling the energy out as well as 
containing it, otherwise what you end up with is just a dirty bomb.

4. Just to polish the problems off, when you get the energy out you 
have to make sure that none of the helium or anything else in the 
reactor gets out - otherwise you just irradiate the area and wipe out 
anything that happens to be around.

So - basically - there are several ways (and many of them much better 
than either a Bussard or a fusion reactor) to get to relatavistic 
speeds...eventually. The snag with all of them is that before you can 
do any of that you have to get them into high orbit...and as yet that 
is an unbelieveably expensive job.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 08:27:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Thu May 23 07:27:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Aubry books
References: <20020522201340.65207.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CECFA08.6020703@magpiesnest.co.uk>

Paul Walker wrote:

 > Maybe the Deathworld books, but if you find the right actor, I
 > would LOVE to see the Stainless Steel Rat in film.  I think the
 > right director could do it very well too.  But who to play the
 > Rat???
 >
He's getting a bit old for it now, but I always thought Harrison Ford 
would make a great Rat. These days, I think I'd have to go for Keifer 
Sutherland - not as good as his dad, but good enough for me :)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 09:03:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu May 23 08:03:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Subject: Re: Stainless Steel and Deathworld
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA2286D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020523150225.13845.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

"Better Off Dead"  One of my all time favorite funny
movies.  I think Cusack could do it.  I've not seen
him in anything action, but I do like him.


--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> What about John Cusack as DiGriz? 
> As far as Deathworld, Schwarzenegger is a shoo-in to
> play Kirk Pyrrus.
> Jason DinAlt is a tough call. Ah hell, get John
> Cusack. He's been a
> convincing soldier, grifter, and ... well, whatever
> he was in "one Crazy
> Summer" and that other movie with the "TWO DOLLARS"
> line.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 09:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu May 23 08:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Aubry books
In-Reply-To: <3CECFA08.6020703@magpiesnest.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020523150517.58531.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

I like both of them, but I'm not sure of the comedy
angle.  Of course, Sutherland would have to do
something about that hair, because we all know DiGriz
has black hair because we all know that cover art is
canon!

Paul

--- Mark Preston <mark@magpiesnest.co.uk> wrote:
> Paul Walker wrote:
> 
>  > Maybe the Deathworld books, but if you find the
> right actor, I
>  > would LOVE to see the Stainless Steel Rat in
> film.  I think the
>  > right director could do it very well too.  But
> who to play the
>  > Rat???
>  >
> He's getting a bit old for it now, but I always
> thought Harrison Ford 
> would make a great Rat. These days, I think I'd have
> to go for Keifer 
> Sutherland - not as good as his dad, but good enough
> for me :)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 09:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Thu May 23 08:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Steve Jackson Games Server Outage?
References: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPCEOIDKAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <3CED0FDA.7000807@attbi.com>


Maksim-Smelchak wrote:

>I find that the SJG site goes down fairly regularly. It happens
>semi-regularly. I've always attributed it to updates, but I really have no
>idea why it actually happens. I like to think that it's because my friend,
>Jefferson Krogh, no longer works for SJG!! :)
>
Knowing Jeff, He has never worked for for Evil Stevie.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 10:01:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu May 23 09:01:50 2002
Subject: Skyhooks/space interfaces (was Re: [TML] Colony logistics)
In-Reply-To: <20020522234121.15381279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205230723330.17415-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> >> Has Dr. Forward ever used his skyhook/pinwheel idea in a story as a space
> >> interface?
>
> Not to slight Bob Forward, but there's an italian scientist connected
> to the "tumbling walking stick / skyhook" idea somehow or other. I
> vaguely remember reading an article siting him in either Analog or Ad
> Astra magazine.

No slight inferred, Dr. Forward's book is just where I first read about
those ideas.

> >Yes, the last(?) one of the stories set around Barnard's Star.
>
> >And Fred Pohl used the Lofstrom Launch Loop in one of the books in
> >the Gateway series. (I mention this because I know Keith Lofstrom :-)
>
> I remember a story in Analog, back in the...early 90's?...based around
> the skyhook. Well, I remember there *was* a story, but I can't for the
> life of me remember anything about the plot.


I think a skyhook (or other alternate launch mechanism) would provide some
interesting color for a relatively independant ~TL12-ish world or polity
(assuming only older tech worlds, and/or non-Imperial worlds would still
use such tech with CG available).

"Bwadeep control, this is the freetrader Beowulf.  Request permission to
land."
"Negative, Beowulf.  All transport to the surface is via Royal Skyhook
only.  Please dock at Bwadeep Royal Space Station and go to the Skyhook
shuttle station.  Be sure to have your entry fees and papers ready."

If their reasons for visiting Bwadeep are strong enough, they'll have to
leave their ship there, bring only what Customs allows, and have an
interesting ("How quaint", "what a pile of junk! You expect us to trust
our lives to *that*?", "Wheee!") trip to the surface.

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 10:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu May 23 09:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RW Genetic Engineering
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020522075607.009ee080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEEGEIAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

You can't fool me, those things are cockatrices.

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
----------
They're certainly ugly enough, but might they not be basilisks? Or perhaps
Jabberwocks?

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 10:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Thu May 23 09:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Steve Jackson Games Server Outage?
References: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPCEOIDKAA.max200@lanset.com> <3CED0FDA.7000807@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <3CED1A00.8060007@attbi.com>


Evyn MacDude wrote:

> Maksim-Smelchak wrote:
>
>> I find that the SJG site goes down fairly regularly. It happens
>> semi regularly. I've always attributed it to updates, but I really 
>> have no
>> idea why it actually happens. I like to think that it's because my 
>> friend,
>> Jefferson Krogh, no longer works for SJG!! :)
>>
Thou, if you shaw Jeff and Keith Johnson in the same place it would be 
easy to
change out parts between the two of them.

ObTrav. Alternate designs for contintal siege units in a post grav 
battle field.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 11:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu May 23 10:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205230723330.17415-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000001c2027b$6c044f90$0b01a8c0@duck>

OK, I will go ahead and show my complete ignorance here:

What is a "skyhook"?  In a paragraph or two.

And, since I am showing my ignorance anyway, on a similar
subject, is a "beanpole" the same thing as a "space elevator"?

Thanks.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 11:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu May 23 10:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Freefall
Message-ID: <3CED235C.21C89B7A@ameritech.net>

> From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
> Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:39:07 -0500

<snip>

> I would also love to see an actual Traveller strip or
> on-line comic.

I'll write one if somebody else is interested in doing
the art and Marc is amenable. Though I think Traveller
would work better as a comic book (or it's e-equivalent)
rather than as a strip.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 12:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu May 23 11:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces
In-Reply-To: <000001c2027b$6c044f90$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20020523181725.47718.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> OK, I will go ahead and show my complete ignorance
> here:
> 
> What is a "skyhook"?  In a paragraph or two.
> 
> And, since I am showing my ignorance anyway, on a
> similar
> subject, is a "beanpole" the same thing as a "space
> elevator"?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Mike West
> 
  >>
  Yes.

  Sorry, but all three of those terms describe
basically the same system: a LARGE cable extending
from a planetary surface to LO; 'elevator cars' ride
up and down the cable, typically taking about 3 days
to reach orbit. 

  Cheap to use, but the real hurdle is getting the
thing built......

   MACessna
  >>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 12:22:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Thu May 23 11:22:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Subject: Re: Stainless Steel and Deathworld
Message-ID: <E17AxDU-0000cp-00@pluto2.runbox.com>

Check out Grosse Pointe Blank.  It is sort of action/comedy.

Beth=20

> "Better Off Dead"  One of my all time favorite funny
> movies.  I think Cusack could do it.  I've not seen
> him in anything action, but I do like him.
>=20
>=20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 12:44:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu May 23 11:44:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces
In-Reply-To: <20020523181725.47718.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1022179385.6212.ajackson@ping>

Michael Cessna writes:

>   Cheap to use, but the real hurdle is getting the
> thing built......

Carbon nanotube rope is looking promising, particularly in combination with a
supertower at the bottom (a tower into geosynchronous orbit is harder to build
than a cable from orbit, but a combination of building up from the bottom and
down from the top is easier than either).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 12:48:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu May 23 11:48:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces
In-Reply-To: <000001c2027b$6c044f90$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20020523184750.3B1EB279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/23/02 at 12:01 PM,  "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> said:

>OK, I will go ahead and show my complete ignorance here:

>What is a "skyhook"?  In a paragraph or two.

>And, since I am showing my ignorance anyway, on a similar subject, is
>a "beanpole" the same thing as a "space elevator"?

I might not be exactly right on all the details of these, and I'm
probably leaving some out, but here are several alternative "to and
from orbit" methods I've seen proposed over the last 30+ years.

Skyhook - First you have an orbiting station that is rotating. It has
two very long cables on opposite sides that can be played out and
reeled back in. A ship from the surface launches on a sub-orbital path
and as it comes underneath the station one of it's cables...travelling
just faster (or slower) than the ship..."hooks" it, and the station
reels it in, thus accelerating it to the station's orbital velocity.
The cable on the other side of the "hook up" is used to toss mass away
(like ships/cargos bound for deeper space), offsetting the change in
momentium caused by grabbing the ship.  

Beanstalk - a tower/cable is constructed that extends from far into
space down to the surface of a planet. At the bottom the cable is
anchored to the surface and at the "mid-point" (though still in space)
there is a station. Elevator cars carry passengers and good up and
down the cable. 

Walking Stick -  A cross between a Beanpole and a skyhook. A structure
like a thin beanpole is constructed, but it doesn't extend to the
surface, instead it orbits with each end sweeping down to the top of
the atmosphere as it tumbles around the planet. Launch vehicles rise
up to the upper atmosphere and either hook themselves or, more
usually, transfer cargo pods, onto the cable as it sweeps past. The
vehicles/pods are drawn up the cable to orbit.

Launch Loop 1 - Instead of a cable extending from space to the ground,
a vertical conveyor belt of metal strips/dust/balls (we could be
talking about things the size of ball bearings here because the whole
thing is insubstantial)  is created using magnets. This conveyor belt
goes almost staight up from the surface into space and back down in a
loop. Cargo and passenger cars use magnetic lift to ride along the
virtual tracks of the loop up to and down from orbital altitudes. In
space there is a "station" where cargo and passengers transfer to
ships that then accelerate them to orbital velocity.

Launch Loop 2 -  The same as one, except the loop is several miles
wide making it more like a hoop. There are anchor points on the
surface and the magnetic modules around the hoop act to hold the shape
of the virtual metal ribbon accelerating through them in place. An
elevator cable extends from the top of the hoop down to the surface so
cargo/passengers can be drawn up or lowered. Alternatively, cars
magnetically ride around the hoop delivering cargo/passengers to both
space and surface.

Orbital Railroad -  Interconnected metal ribbons are formed into a
ring entirely around a planet, accelerated, and held in place by
magnets. The whole thing is in a stable orbit, but the internal parts
are not. The strips inside the magnets are accelerated at velocities
from well below orbital velocity to well above. Ships lifting from the
surface overtake the slower internal ribbon and hook on, then are
moved up the strips to orbital velocity. Ships coming in reverse the
process, hooking on at greater than orbital velocity, then losing
velocity as them move across the strips. The idea is that incoming and
outgoing will balance the momentum changes.  One variation I saw was
to actually put a landing strip on the surface of such an orbital
ring. 

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 12:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu May 23 11:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Aubry books
References: <20020523130327.20350.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CED3BA3.20604@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Paul Walker wrote:
> As much as I love Spacey, he doesn't seem right for
> the role.  DiGriz is active and I see Spacey as
> sedentary.

Yeah but Spacey has DiGriz' chameleonic ability to be anyone, anytime, 
and has it in spades.

The final moments of 'The Usual Suspects', as he shakes off the limp in 
a few steps, is incredible, moreso because you *never* see it coming. 
Well, at least *I* didn't...

> I think Afflek could pull off the role if they started
> with the younger books.  My ideal actor for the Bishop
> was William Conrad, but since that is no longer a
> possibility, I would opt for Eddie Jones (Invisible
> Man), or someone like it.

Hmmm...Charles Durning could do that. Robby Coltrane ("Cracker") could, too.


Angelique is harder to cast. My first thought was Angelica Huston, 
mostly because of 'Prizzi's Honor'. She'd be better for the later books, 
certainly.

Odd that we both chose 'angels' for the role, though...



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 13:03:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu May 23 12:03:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces
In-Reply-To: <20020523181725.47718.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205231143120.17415-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Michael Cessna wrote:

> > What is a "skyhook"?  In a paragraph or two.
> >
> > And, since I am showing my ignorance anyway, on a
> > similar
> > subject, is a "beanpole" the same thing as a "space
> > elevator"?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Mike West
> >
>   >>
>   Yes.
>
>   Sorry, but all three of those terms describe
> basically the same system: a LARGE cable extending
> from a planetary surface to LO; 'elevator cars' ride
> up and down the cable, typically taking about 3 days
> to reach orbit.
>
>   Cheap to use, but the real hurdle is getting the
> thing built......
>
>    MACessna

The Skyhook as I was remembering it from Dr.Forward's book
was a rotating station with LONG cables extending down into
the atmosphere, like spokes on a rimless wheel.  High altitude
aircraft/shuttles would fly up and hook onto the ends of a
cable as it dipped down into the atmosphere and be swung up
into space.  IIRC, they could then move up the cable to the station
or maybe that one had them then flung up to higher orbits to other
stations.  (Then there were the rotating deep-space 'stars' that
a ship could latch onto and be given a boost in the right direction
to quickly accelerate to another location.)

The other idea (maybe the Launch Loop - not sure if it's the same
as what I'm remembering from the book) had a moving chain of metallic
links from ground to orbit and back again, the energy to keep it
moving coming from the parts falling back down (once you've started
it).  Transports could piggyback on the 'pipe' carrying the chain
via inductance to climb into orbit.  Probably all garbled and perhaps
Mr. Erickson or Mr. Reddoch can explain them better.

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 13:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu May 23 12:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces
In-Reply-To: <20020523184750.3B1EB279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205231202420.17415-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Skyhook - First you have an orbiting station that is rotating. It has
> Beanstalk - a tower/cable is constructed that extends from far into
> Walking Stick -  A cross between a Beanpole and a skyhook. A structure
> Launch Loop 1 - Instead of a cable extending from space to the ground,
> Launch Loop 2 -  The same as one, except the loop is several miles
> Orbital Railroad -  Interconnected metal ribbons are formed into a

Gee - I just wondered if you or Leonard would post about this and
provide some clarification to my muddled attempt at recall.
Thanks!

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 13:47:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu May 23 12:47:09 2002
Subject: Slippery Jim actor (was Re: [TML] Re: Aubry books)
References: <20020523190112.D52A8279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CED4677.33BFD02B@ameritech.net>



> Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 15:17:44 +0100
> From: Mark Preston <mark@magpiesnest.co.uk>

> Paul Walker wrote:
> 
>  > Maybe the Deathworld books, but if you find the right actor, I
>  > would LOVE to see the Stainless Steel Rat in film.  I think the
>  > right director could do it very well too.  But who to play the
>  > Rat???
>  >
> He's getting a bit old for it now, but I always thought Harrison Ford
> would make a great Rat. These days, I think I'd have to go for Keifer
> Sutherland - not as good as his dad, but good enough for me :)

I'd like to nominate Eddie Murphy.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 14:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu May 23 13:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces and HEPlaR
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205231202420.17415-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020523201422.5F090279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/23/02 at 12:04 PM,  Rob Davenport <rgd@travellercentral.com>
said:


>On Thu, 23 May 2002, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>> Skyhook - First you have an orbiting station that is rotating. It has
>> Beanstalk - a tower/cable is constructed that extends from far into
>> Walking Stick -  A cross between a Beanpole and a skyhook. A structure
>> Launch Loop 1 - Instead of a cable extending from space to the ground,
>> Launch Loop 2 -  The same as one, except the loop is several miles
>> Orbital Railroad -  Interconnected metal ribbons are formed into a

>Gee - I just wondered if you or Leonard would post about this and
>provide some clarification to my muddled attempt at recall. Thanks!

You're welcome.  <g>  As I said, I might not have all the details
correct, and I'm sure I missed some of the ideas that have come up.
OTOH, it appears that all the ideas I listed are, at least vaguely,
physically/technically possible...or maybe better to say not totally
impossible. <g>

Of course, in Traveller we can ride to orbit in our open topped
air/rafts (don't forget your vacc suit!) using grav drives so we don't
have to worry about all those "low-tech" kludges. <g>

Re H2 heating:  High Energy Plasma Rockets (HEPlaR) use a heat source
(generally a fusion engine) to heat hydrogen to a very high energy
plasma which is then expelled as reaction mass. The by products of the
fusion (or other heat creator) are not mixed with the reaction mass at
all, thus producing an "environmentally clean" (notice that I put that
in quotes because I know that's not really true and it's certainly not
environmentally safe) rocket. Of course, the thrust that HEPlaR
produces is a "bit" (quotes again...because I mean, outrageously, like
Ve > c <g>) high. Drop the Ve (that's Exhaust Velocity, btw) by an
order of magnitude or two and it might actually be feasible...or at
least NASA is investigating the feasibility of something like HEPlaR.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 14:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu May 23 13:18:04 2002
Subject: Slippery Jim actor (was Re: [TML] Re: Aubry books)
In-Reply-To: <3CED4677.33BFD02B@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20020523201619.53749.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

As strange as it may sound to some, I think he could
do it.  Unfortunately, with the success of his recent
movies, I don't know that I would pick him.  Besides,
he connotates a certain type of movie that I think has
some subtle differences from the Rat books.  However,
that said, his acting from Bowfinger was probably up
to DiGriz callibar.

Paul

--- David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 15:17:44 +0100
> > From: Mark Preston <mark@magpiesnest.co.uk>
> 
> > Paul Walker wrote:
> > 
> >  > Maybe the Deathworld books, but if you find the
> right actor, I
> >  > would LOVE to see the Stainless Steel Rat in
> film.  I think the
> >  > right director could do it very well too.  But
> who to play the
> >  > Rat???
> >  >
> > He's getting a bit old for it now, but I always
> thought Harrison Ford
> > would make a great Rat. These days, I think I'd
> have to go for Keifer
> > Sutherland - not as good as his dad, but good
> enough for me :)
> 
> I'd like to nominate Eddie Murphy.
> 
> David Shayne
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu May 23 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces and HEPlaR
In-Reply-To: <20020523201422.5F090279B3@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205231326170.17415-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Thu, 23 May 2002, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> >> Beanstalk - a tower/cable is constructed that extends from far into
> >> Walking Stick -  A cross between a Beanpole and a skyhook. A structure
> >> Launch Loop 1 - Instead of a cable extending from space to the ground,
> >> Launch Loop 2 -  The same as one, except the loop is several miles
> >> Orbital Railroad -  Interconnected metal ribbons are formed into a
>
> >Gee - I just wondered if you or Leonard would post about this and
> >provide some clarification to my muddled attempt at recall. Thanks!
>
> You're welcome.  <g>  As I said, I might not have all the details
> correct, and I'm sure I missed some of the ideas that have come up.
> OTOH, it appears that all the ideas I listed are, at least vaguely,
> physically/technically possible...or maybe better to say not totally
> impossible. <g>

Anyone up for detailing them in game terms? <g>

> Of course, in Traveller we can ride to orbit in our open topped
> air/rafts (don't forget your vacc suit!) using grav drives so we don't
> have to worry about all those "low-tech" kludges. <g>

Right - hence my scenario of finding these only in non-Imperial "backward"
systems.

> Re H2 heating:  High Energy Plasma Rockets (HEPlaR) use a heat source
> (generally a fusion engine) to heat hydrogen to a very high energy
> plasma which is then expelled as reaction mass. The by products of the

I think I understand the comments about Isp being out-of-whack for HEPlaR
now.

> fusion (or other heat creator) are not mixed with the reaction mass at
> all, thus producing an "environmentally clean" (notice that I put that
> in quotes because I know that's not really true and it's certainly not
> environmentally safe) rocket. Of course, the thrust that HEPlaR

OK, I think I was close to understand there too.  The straight fusion
option is just that - fusing H1 and ejecting the results forcefully the
way you came.

> produces is a "bit" (quotes again...because I mean, outrageously, like
> Ve > c <g>) high. Drop the Ve (that's Exhaust Velocity, btw) by an
> order of magnitude or two and it might actually be feasible...or at
> least NASA is investigating the feasibility of something like HEPlaR.

What was the 'ion drive' on the Cassini(??) space probe?  Vaguely
similar, no? I.e. using very low mass particles as exhaust to provide
motivation.

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 15:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu May 23 14:06:02 2002
Subject: Skyhooks/space interfaces (was Re: [TML] Colony logistics)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205230723330.17415-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20523.133147.4r9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I think a skyhook (or other alternate launch mechanism) would provide some
> interesting color for a relatively independant ~TL12-ish world or polity
> (assuming only older tech worlds, and/or non-Imperial worlds would still
> use such tech with CG available).
>
> "Bwadeep control, this is the freetrader Beowulf.  Request permission to
> land."
> "Negative, Beowulf.  All transport to the surface is via Royal Skyhook
> only.  Please dock at Bwadeep Royal Space Station and go to the Skyhook
> shuttle station.  Be sure to have your entry fees and papers ready."
>
> If their reasons for visiting Bwadeep are strong enough, they'll have to
> leave their ship there, bring only what Customs allows, and have an
> interesting ("How quaint", "what a pile of junk! You expect us to trust
> our lives to *that*?", "Wheee!") trip to the surface.

I'm trying to recall if a launch loop can be used for landing. 

Assuming it can, the PCs ship would need to be fitted with a sort of
magnetic grapple to allow them to interact with the "loop" (actually a
stream of metal "plates" moving at multiple km/sec). And they'd need to
take on a pilot to handle the landing and takeoff manuever. 

One nice thing about a launch loop is that if there's a screw up and
the ship intersects the loop, it'll get holed badly by the plates that
strike it, but the loop won't fail. They'll just add plates to fill the
gap in the stream as it passe thru the ground stations. (the plates get
inspected on the fly anyway, and swapped out if they are out of spec,
so this isn't a big deal. 

And they'll charge the PCs for the damage. <eg>

As I've noted before, some planets may *want* to use things like laser
launchers for transferring cargo to orbit. At least in part because any
laser launch system capable of handling decent cargo volumes (and
especially ones capable of handling *passenger* traffic, which requires
longer periods of lower accel at higher thrusts) are *formidable*
weapons.

A single laser launch installation can track and shoot down *dozens* of
incoming targets at once. The main limit is software and extra tracking
mirrors. This is because each "launcher" is an array of dozens of
lasers, partly for backup in case of failures of lasers *during* a
launch. 

A world with a dozen or so launchers scattered around the planet is
going to be someplace that you do *not* want to attack from near orbit.
And don't even *think* about dropping troops. The drop capsules will
take *heavy* losses even *with* heavy use of decoys and
countermeasures.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 15:08:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu May 23 14:08:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205230708150.17415-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20523.125316.0N4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, 22 May 2002, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Well, the type I described is "fusion *heating*" rather than straight
>> fusion. So the exhaust is pure hydrogen, which until you get *way* up
>> in the atmosphere will react fairly immediately with oxygen to form
>> water.
>>
>> And if you use "straight" fusion (and remember, to make a Bussard
>> ramjet work, you have to be able to fusion "protium" (ie H1) not merely
>> stuff like deuterium, tritium, etc) the only difference will be some
>> added helium.
>
> Pardon my denseness in continuing this, but I'd like to understand
> it better.  Please correct me where I'm wrong here:
>
> The fusion heating you're talking about means fusing some of the H1 fuel
> which releases energy (and particles, no?) which heats the additional fuel
> to high temps which when allowed to exit the engine as exhaust give a high
> specific impulse, and hence lift. Thus the fuel becomes the exhaust and
> the H1 combines with O to make water (as it cools?).

Well, "cools" isn't exactly the right term, but it's the right idea. 

> Straight fusion would fuse the H1 into He(?) which then becomes the
> exhaust with a different Isp.
>
> So if we started using these drives for thousands of launches per year,
> we'd soon either have a water world with no oxygen, or all be talking
> in high squeaky voices.  ;)

Not even close.

First off, we'd be getting the hydrogen by splitting water into
hydrogen and oxygen. So that'd be a wash. Well, since *some* of the
hydrogen would leave permanently, you'd lose some water, but that'd
take a *long* time. A *very* long time. And you'd be *gaining* hydrogen
from ships that were landing, anyway.

As for the "high squeaky voice" bit...

The surface pressure on earth is roughtly 1 kilogram-force per cm^2.
Which means that there must be roughly one kilo of air above every
cm^2. 

Earth has a radius of 6400 km. Which gives a surface area of roughly
500 million km^2. There are 1 million m^2 to a km^2. Which gives us
roughly 500 trillion m^2. There are 10,000 cm^2 to the m^2, which gives
us 5 quintillion (5e18) cm^2. 

So, the mass of the atmosphere is roughly 5e18 kg. 1% of that is 5e16.
So, to get 1% helium into the atmosphere, we'd have to dump 1 million
tonnes of it per year for 50 *million* years. And it'd leak away faster
than that. 

Also, producing 1 million tonnes of helium by fusing H1 to He4
producers a *lot* of energy.

H1	1.00794 amu

4 H1	4.03176 amu
He4	4.002602 amu
---------------------
         .029158  amu


I'll skip the math, but that million tonnes a year of helium produced
would be from generating over 2e25 joules of energy, which works out to
around 7e17 watts. 700 terawatts of energy generated is going to give
us more to worry about that "high squeaky voices"!!
 
It pays to keep in mind just how *big* a planet is.

>> > Always wondered about that in Niven's Ringworld stories.
>>
>> Back then it was thought that the limit was *near* the speed of light.
>> Then someone actually did the math. :-(
>
> The drag of capturing the hydrogen is that great, eh?

At those speeds, yes. Also, you can't fuse hat you haven't captured in
the scoop.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 15:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu May 23 14:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RW Genetic Engineering
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEEGEIAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020522075607.009ee080@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020523141532.009ea020@mindspring.com>

At 12:25 PM 5/23/02 +0800, you wrote:
>You can't fool me, those things are cockatrices.
>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
>----------
>They're certainly ugly enough, but might they not be basilisks? Or perhaps
>Jabberwocks?

We pulled out the D&D3e Monster Manual last night.  Dead ringer for the 
Rubber Chicken of Doom.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 15:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu May 23 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] And now Ion Drives ( was Skyhooks/space interfaces and HEPlaR)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205231326170.17415-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020523213421.A85FE27990@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/23/02 at 01:33 PM,  Rob Davenport <rgd@travellercentral.com>
said:

>What was the 'ion drive' on the Cassini(??) space probe?  Vaguely
>similar, no? I.e. using very low mass particles as exhaust to provide
>motivation.

Well, ion drives work by using electricity to strip off charged heavy
metal ions and accelerate them for thrust. You get very high Ve, but
with very low reaction mass, thus low thrust. Now, if you could get
that Ve with moderate amounts of reaction mass...<g> you get Buck
Rogers...but that's not really likely to be possible.  The electricity
can be generated with any sort of power source you want. solar, fuel
cell, or nuclear.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 16:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu May 23 15:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Interstellar travel
In-Reply-To: <3CECF959.8000908@magpiesnest.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20523.143718.8y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Clint Rynners wrote:
>
>> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> "First, if you can make fusion work in a Bussard ramjet, you can make it
>> work in small reactors. Which means getting into orbit *is* cheap.
> [snip]

>> Greetings Mr Erickson
>> 
> [snip]
>
>> 
>> Given your information about the bussard ramjet, what would you suggest is
>> a viable form of propulsion at relativistic velocities across interstellar
>> distances? Anti-matter, if humanity finds a way to mass-produce it?
>> 
> Well....except for a couple of minor points:
>
>
> 1. Bussards will work because they funnell and awfull lot of hydrogen 
> into an awfull small point - which makes it hot enough to fuse - and 
> then just lets it go BANG!!

Nope. You have to *control* the flow in a number of ways or you won't
get any thrust.

> 2. A reactor, on the other hand, has to be *provided* with hydrogen 
> and that means that you need a pump that can get the hydrogen into the 
> reactor agains the force of the reaction trying to blow it the other 
> way - and that is sort of tricky.

Read up on fusion research. Making a Bussard ramjet work is *harder*
than making a normal reactor work. You have the exact same confinement
problems, with the added problems of having things spread out a lot
more. 

> 3. Not only that, but rather then just pushing it into a small space 
> and letting it go BANG!! a reactor has to *contain* the explosion so 
> that the energy can be pulled out of the reactor. Of course, that 
> means you have to have a method of pulling the energy out as well as 
> containing it, otherwise what you end up with is just a dirty bomb.

Again, if you "just let it go bang" you *won't* get any thrust, because
the blast goes *equally* in all directions. You've got a bussard ramjet
confused with an Orion type drive. Which requires a pusher plate. And a
Bussard ramjet can't do it that way, as the plate would be in the way
of the incoming hydrogen.

> 4. Just to polish the problems off, when you get the energy out you 
> have to make sure that none of the helium or anything else in the 
> reactor gets out - otherwise you just irradiate the area and wipe out 
> anything that happens to be around.

Helium isn't a problem. With fusion reactors, the problem is that the
*easy* fusion reactions produce neutron. And there's *no* way to keep
them from escaping. You can'yt affect them with electric or magnetic
fields.  

If you are fusing the most common form of hydrogen, then you *aren't*
producing neutrons. 

A Bussard ramjet would be running a *continuous* fusion reaction. Not
pulsed. And it'd be fusing H1 to He4. This requires EM field control
*way* beyond that needs for an ordinary reactor. 

Ordinary reactors don't have to deal with fuel coming in at high
velocities.  Both the reactor and the ramjet have to force the hydrogen
to very high pressures and temperatures and *keep* it there. The ramjet
has to reach *higher* pressures and temps because it has to make
essentially *all* the hydrogen fuse in a *short* span of time (that's
because it'll only be inside the ramjet's "throat" for a fraction of a
second). The ordinary reactor can accept a *much* lower reaction rate. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 16:17:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu May 23 15:17:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces
In-Reply-To: <20020523181725.47718.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20523.140023.8c0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> OK, I will go ahead and show my complete ignorance
>> here:
>> 
>> What is a "skyhook"?  In a paragraph or two.
>> 
>> And, since I am showing my ignorance anyway, on a
>> similar
>> subject, is a "beanpole" the same thing as a "space
>> elevator"?
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> Mike West
>> 
>   >>
>   Yes.
>
>   Sorry, but all three of those terms describe
> basically the same system: a LARGE cable extending
> from a planetary surface to LO; 'elevator cars' ride
> up and down the cable, typically taking about 3 days
> to reach orbit. 
>
>   Cheap to use, but the real hurdle is getting the
> thing built......
>
>    MACessna
>   >>

Actually, I think "skyhook" is used more for rotating tether systems.
Also known as "rotovators".

the basic idea is a *long* cable with a satellite at the center. The
cable rotates about the station (with the "upper" end of the cable
moving in the same direction as the satellite is orbiting). 

So as an end of the cable comes near the plnet it's moving slowly. That
means that (for example) a plane in the upper atmosphere can couple a
cargo pod to the end of the cable or grab one that's already attached. 

The ends of the cable have "grapples" that can reel in or let out
cable. This lets them "linger" at the high and low points a bit longer,
making it more practical to attach/detach cargos. 

With stronger materials, you can even reach the ground with the end
points of the tether. You'd have six pickup/dropoff points, equally
spaced around the planet (probably at the equator). 

Grabbing a cargo at the low end lowers the orbit of the center of the
rotovator. Grabbing one at the high end raises the orbit. So as long as
the mass flow up and down balances out over a easonable period, you get
the transfers for free. 

You can have more rotovators in hugher orbits that pick up the stuff
handed off from lower/higher rotovators. 


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 16:20:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu May 23 15:20:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205231143120.17415-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20523.141522.5D7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> The Skyhook as I was remembering it from Dr.Forward's book
> was a rotating station with LONG cables extending down into
> the atmosphere, like spokes on a rimless wheel.  High altitude
> aircraft/shuttles would fly up and hook onto the ends of a
> cable as it dipped down into the atmosphere and be swung up
> into space.  IIRC, they could then move up the cable to the station
> or maybe that one had them then flung up to higher orbits to other
> stations.  (Then there were the rotating deep-space 'stars' that
> a ship could latch onto and be given a boost in the right direction
> to quickly accelerate to another location.)
>
> The other idea (maybe the Launch Loop - not sure if it's the same
> as what I'm remembering from the book) had a moving chain of metallic
> links from ground to orbit and back again, the energy to keep it
> moving coming from the parts falling back down (once you've started
> it).  Transports could piggyback on the 'pipe' carrying the chain
> via inductance to climb into orbit.  Probably all garbled and perhaps
> Mr. Erickson or Mr. Reddoch can explain them better.

You've got them both mostly right.

There's also the "fountain" or "dynamic tower". Basicly you have
several streams of metal "rings" being shot upwards at *high* velocity.
Then a series of platforms use magnetic gizmos to slow the rings
slightly, which pushes the platform up. 

The top platform slows them to a stop and sends them back down in a
seperate stream. The lower platforms get more lift by speeding up the
descending streams. And the base of the tower turns the descending
streams around to send them back up. 

Both the tower and the launch loop use a lot of power. But they can
handle power loss gracefully by letting things slow down and "pulling"
rings or "plates" as the stream shortens due to the lowering of the
platforms.

The loop design also has a provision for an "oh $#!+" accident. You
have the base stations in an ocean or other large body of water and in
a major emergency you "dump" the stream into the water. The plates
vaporize on impact and you wind up with a lot of steam and some very
rusty water.

Spectacular, and a bit of an expense for restarting the stream with new
plates, but better than some things that can happen to a tower. 

The high end stations will have to use ballons & parachutes to reach
the surface. But they too can be recovered undamaged.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 16:22:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu May 23 15:22:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces
In-Reply-To: <20020523184750.3B1EB279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20523.142646.5m5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Launch Loop 1 - Instead of a cable extending from space to the ground,
> a vertical conveyor belt of metal strips/dust/balls (we could be
> talking about things the size of ball bearings here because the whole
> thing is insubstantial)  is created using magnets. This conveyor belt
> goes almost staight up from the surface into space and back down in a
> loop. Cargo and passenger cars use magnetic lift to ride along the
> virtual tracks of the loop up to and down from orbital altitudes. In
> space there is a "station" where cargo and passengers transfer to
> ships that then accelerate them to orbital velocity.
>
> Launch Loop 2 -  The same as one, except the loop is several miles
> wide making it more like a hoop. There are anchor points on the
> surface and the magnetic modules around the hoop act to hold the shape
> of the virtual metal ribbon accelerating through them in place. An
> elevator cable extends from the top of the hoop down to the surface so
> cargo/passengers can be drawn up or lowered. Alternatively, cars
> magnetically ride around the hoop delivering cargo/passengers to both
> space and surface.

The first is called several things, but *not* a "launch loop"

The second is closer to a launch loop. But a real launch loop is
*hundres* of miles long. Sort of like this:


     S------->-----------S
    /                     \
   /                       \
  B------------<------------B

S = orbit level stations
B = base stations
<> = direction of stream

The orbit level stations are at low orbit altitude, but *not* in orbit.
They are stationary with respect to the surface of the planet. 

Cargo and passengers get to the stations by riding in "sleds" that
magnetically grapple to the stream. That "drags" them up along the
stream. 

Sleds can grapple to the stream between the stations and accelerate to
orbital velocity (the stream is moving *faster* than orbital velecity!)

Elevators to from the stations are possible, but take some pretty
amazing cables. 

> Orbital Railroad -  Interconnected metal ribbons are formed into a
> ring entirely around a planet, accelerated, and held in place by
> magnets. The whole thing is in a stable orbit, but the internal parts
> are not. The strips inside the magnets are accelerated at velocities
> from well below orbital velocity to well above. Ships lifting from the
> surface overtake the slower internal ribbon and hook on, then are
> moved up the strips to orbital velocity. Ships coming in reverse the
> process, hooking on at greater than orbital velocity, then losing
> velocity as them move across the strips. The idea is that incoming and
> outgoing will balance the momentum changes.  One variation I saw was
> to actually put a landing strip on the surface of such an orbital
> ring. 

Launch loops are sort of like having just a *segment* of such a setup. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 18:19:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Thu May 23 17:19:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Annual Maintenance
In-Reply-To: <3CDD62E3.830D434A@mindspring.com>
References: <F3AxCtuTRjtyntahJGy00011458@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020523202143.00a30c40@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
   One thing to consider?

1) ships who have engineers working on maintaining the ship would keep a 
maintenance log of what they are doing.  It is highly likely they will know 
which units need repairs throughout the ship's maintenance cycle

2) the annual inspection can't possibly be hair line close to when things 
can go wrong due to improper maintenance - or there would be more 
"accidents" occurring.  This means that the mean time for failure on major 
units has to be *longer* than a year.

3) if you know you will be involved in maintenance at a specific port - 
there is *nothing* to keep a ship from ordering parts in advance of when 
they will need it.  That life support system upgrade scenario - while 
funny, and even possible - is unlikely if a ship specifically orders the 
parts it needs in advance.

All things considered - I suspect that warships would be built with triple 
reduncancy systems to account for battle damage.  These "redundant" systems 
would also be helpful towards mitigating failures due to maintenance issues 
as well.  If you note in the original rules - a ship can take a hit that 
downgrades its jump ability from a Jump 2 ship to that of a jump 1 
ship.  It can take a hit (according to HG) in the engine room and still 
function at a lesser capacity.  Sure - an energy reduction hit might be 
where a critical power conduit has been taken down - but it can also be 
that the secondary systems have come online a well...

                Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 22:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Thu May 23 21:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Annual Maintenance
In-Reply-To: <3CDD62E3.830D434A@mindspring.com>
References: <F3AxCtuTRjtyntahJGy00011458@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020523202143.00a30c40@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
   One thing to consider?

1) ships who have engineers working on maintaining the ship would keep a 
maintenance log of what they are doing.  It is highly likely they will know 
which units need repairs throughout the ship's maintenance cycle

2) the annual inspection can't possibly be hair line close to when things 
can go wrong due to improper maintenance - or there would be more 
"accidents" occurring.  This means that the mean time for failure on major 
units has to be *longer* than a year.

3) if you know you will be involved in maintenance at a specific port - 
there is *nothing* to keep a ship from ordering parts in advance of when 
they will need it.  That life support system upgrade scenario - while 
funny, and even possible - is unlikely if a ship specifically orders the 
parts it needs in advance.

All things considered - I suspect that warships would be built with triple 
reduncancy systems to account for battle damage.  These "redundant" systems 
would also be helpful towards mitigating failures due to maintenance issues 
as well.  If you note in the original rules - a ship can take a hit that 
downgrades its jump ability from a Jump 2 ship to that of a jump 1 
ship.  It can take a hit (according to HG) in the engine room and still 
function at a lesser capacity.  Sure - an energy reduction hit might be 
where a critical power conduit has been taken down - but it can also be 
that the secondary systems have come online a well...

                Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 22:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Thu May 23 21:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] test2, ignore
Message-ID: <B9130CCF.5C946%listmom@travellercentral.com>

another test
-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 22:27:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Thu May 23 21:27:56 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B9130BD4.5C945%listmom@travellercentral.com>

This is a test
-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 23:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Thu May 23 22:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Subject: Re: Stainless Steel and Deathworld
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA2286D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020523221028.023595c0@mail.verizon.net>

How about the guy that did the movie with DeNiro, Edward Norton for DinAlt?

At 09:53 AM 5/23/02 -0400, you wrote:
>What about John Cusack as DiGriz?
>As far as Deathworld, Schwarzenegger is a shoo-in to play Kirk Pyrrus.
>Jason DinAlt is a tough call. Ah hell, get John Cusack. He's been a
>convincing soldier, grifter, and ... well, whatever he was in "one Crazy
>Summer" and that other movie with the "TWO DOLLARS" line.
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 23 23:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Charles McKnight)
Date: Thu May 23 22:15:02 2002
Subject: Slippery Jim actor (was Re: [TML] Re: Aubry books)
In-Reply-To: <20020523201619.53749.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <3CED4677.33BFD02B@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020523221212.023653b0@mail.verizon.net>

You know, I was thinking Bruce Willis for DiGriz. He's got the offbeat 
humor down pat and is a certified action hero.

At 01:16 PM 5/23/02 -0700, you wrote:

>As strange as it may sound to some, I think he could


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 08:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Fri May 24 07:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces and HEPlaR
Message-ID: <F145zyAmbnk1Ixzl4an0000a7e8@hotmail.com>

>From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
>Of course, the thrust that HEPlaR
>produces is a "bit" (quotes again...because I mean, outrageously, like
>Ve > c <g>) high.

The exhaust velocity of a HePlaR rocket is ~0.14c. That is if I did the math 
correctly but IIRC someone else got the same number a few years ago. That 
velocity is immensely high but not impossible...

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 08:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May 24 07:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces and HEPlaR
Message-ID: <200205241453.GYK04611@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I remember NASA and some Russians working on something called 
a gas dynamic mirror fusion engine.  If it worked, NASA 
claimed that the rocket engine would have a specific impulse 
of around 100,000 sec.

How would that compare to Heplar?
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 09:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Fri May 24 08:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces and HEPlaR
Message-ID: <F139HrxNKaH4PeGSBkH00003eaa@hotmail.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>I remember NASA and some Russians working on something called
>a gas dynamic mirror fusion engine.  If it worked, NASA
>claimed that the rocket engine would have a specific impulse
>of around 100,000 sec.
>
>How would that compare to Heplar?

Good but not good enough. HePlar has a specific impulse of around 4'200'000 
secounds.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 09:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Erich Brackmann)
Date: Fri May 24 08:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Why not more robots?
In-Reply-To: <AAENKIGIMLIFKMMHLBGHEEEICIAA.ShawnSears@telocity.com>
Message-ID: <OGBBICAMOLJHJILPIOEPAEEBCAAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>

* > As for the holy grail of HAL, and having him play chess with
> > us while running a ship, having a personality, and discussing
> > birthdays - that's probably crap, and will never really
> > happen.
>
>
>
The programmers will likely ADD a personality to AI's to make
humans more comfortable interacting with them.

* Anybody remember the book,  "The Two Faces of Tomorrow"? :)
o Erich, wresting with stupid TheSims lockups.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 11:03:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Fri May 24 10:03:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
Message-ID: <OFC4D75A72.32EE23FD-ON42256BC2.001DA0F2@ko.com>

"Thinking about Niven's Beowulf Schaeffer and his months-long trip to the
core of the galaxy (for the FTL part) and not remembering any details from
those stories about getting into space, makes me think that many
stories/settings gloss over the interface portion.  Might make the above
a short list (with many variations on the FTL part I suppose)."

Greetings Rob

I recall from one of Niven's works (I forget which one, but definitely
Known Space) that Interface vehicles on Earth used compressed air or
something similar (vague memory - many neurons trashed since then) to
prevent damage to the environment.

Regards

Clint Rynners


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 12:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri May 24 11:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
References: <OFC4D75A72.32EE23FD-ON42256BC2.001DA0F2@ko.com>
Message-ID: <3CEE86E0.602@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Clint Rynners wrote:
> "Thinking about Niven's Beowulf Schaeffer and his months-long trip to the
> core of the galaxy (for the FTL part) and not remembering any details from
> those stories about getting into space, makes me think that many
> stories/settings gloss over the interface portion.  Might make the above
> a short list (with many variations on the FTL part I suppose)."
> 
> Greetings Rob
> 
> I recall from one of Niven's works (I forget which one, but definitely
> Known Space) that Interface vehicles on Earth used compressed air or
> something similar (vague memory - many neurons trashed since then) to
> prevent damage to the environment.

Yes, the actual wording is something like 'Air compressed to near 
degeneracy levels'...raising some rather, err, *interesting* materials 
design questions. (Tanks made of thousands of layers of woven sinclair 
monofilament perhaps, which would make for some rather insteresting 
properties. SMF has truly unbelievable properties in tension, but a 
rifle shot would disrupt such a tank from the side...*BOOM* probably as 
bad or worse than tanks of LOX and LHyd going off. Then again, in his 
milieu the alternative is fusion rockets, so I guess the giant daisy 
pump models is the way to go...)


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 12:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri May 24 11:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: my milieu wishlist
In-Reply-To: <000201c1f8dd$e5ea8f60$b100a8c0@imogen>
References: <Springmail.0994.1021073779.0.89996100@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020524144805.0262cde8@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:45 AM 5/11/2002, Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
>Anyone remember Psi World RPG?

Oh, yeah - I still have a copy around here somewhere.

>The background could be adapted to the 
>Traveller  universe  during  the  Psionic Supressions quite easily.

Yes, and the psionic talents have a lot more variety than in Traveller; I 
used their psionics system in place of the Traveller one for a particularly 
psi heavy game.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 13:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (laning)
Date: Fri May 24 12:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting the Stainless Steel Rat
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020524150725.02ef0a20@pop.speakeasy.net>

Paul Walker wrote:
 >>>
Maybe the Deathworld books, but if you find the right
actor, I would LOVE to see the Stainless Steel Rat in
film. I think the right director could do it very
well too. But who to play the Rat???
<<<

Bruce Johnson replied:
 >>>
Kevin Spacey, possibly Ben Afflek as a younger version.
(Be interesting to see how Afflek handles the Jack Ryan role in SOAF...I 
suspect he'll be the better of the three so far.)
<<<

I don't think Spacey has ever demonstrated the kind of energy level nor 
twinkle in his eye that Slippery Jim Digriz needs.  And I don't think 
Affleck has the stage presence nor the twinkle.

Hugh Jackman comes to mind.  And of course, Johnny Depp can play pretty 
much any role he chooses, and play it with genius.  I suspect Ben Stiller 
could do the role quite well, also.  Yeah, I think I'd cast Stiller.

--Laning


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 13:34:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 24 12:34:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Gravity Oddness
In-Reply-To: <20020524190106.B7AE2279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17BKov-0004Bp-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

Check out:

http://www.sciam.com/2002/0602issue/0602scicit3.html

Some physicist believes that it is possible to use superconductors 
to transform EM radiation to gravity waves and back again. Other 
physicists are dubious, but if his experiments pan out I'm betting 
there is some way to get vaguely antigrav-like out of this.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 16:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 24 15:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting the Stainless Steel Rat
Message-ID: <20020524.175913.-161931.2.Knightsky@juno.com>

> Hugh Jackman comes to mind.  And of course, Johnny Depp can play 
> pretty much any role he chooses, and play it with genius.  I suspect
Ben 
> Stiller could do the role quite well, also.  Yeah, I think I'd cast
Stiller.

While I would *love* to see Stiller take the role, a dark twisted part of
me wants to see Bruce Campbell play the part.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 16:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May 24 15:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces and HEPlaR
In-Reply-To: <F145zyAmbnk1Ixzl4an0000a7e8@hotmail.com>
References: <F145zyAmbnk1Ixzl4an0000a7e8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020525082744.B15613@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> The exhaust velocity of a HePlaR rocket is ~0.14c. That is if I did
> the math correctly but IIRC someone else got the same number a few
> years ago.

I didn't realise it was *that* bad!  I was just skimming some ship
designs and noticed that high performance ships in TNE seem to have
about 40-50 G-hours of delta-V, and assuming that was about where they
had roughly as much fuel as payload.  Wow, I was *very* wrong.  With
as much fuel as payload, it looks more like 1200 G-hours endurance.

Which means of course, that my earlier postings on how a Happy Fun
Ball dreadnaught would melt/vaporise the top few hundred metres off a
mountain when landing were quite wrong.  If powered by HEPlaR, it
would actually take out the whole mountain and large chunks of
neighbouring ones, as well as causing massive earthquakes as the drive
plume drills deep into the crust (about 10 on the Richter scale,
assuming only 3% energy transfer).


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 16:47:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May 24 15:47:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces and HEPlaR
Message-ID: <200205242246.PAA25927@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>Patrik Holmstr^m wrote:
>> The exhaust velocity of a HePlaR rocket is ~0.14c. That is if I did
>> the math correctly but IIRC someone else got the same number a few
>> years ago.
>
>I didn't realise it was *that* bad!  I was just skimming some ship
>designs and noticed that high performance ships in TNE seem to have
>about 40-50 G-hours of delta-V, and assuming that was about where they
>had roughly as much fuel as payload.  Wow, I was *very* wrong.  With
>as much fuel as payload, it looks more like 1200 G-hours endurance.

Yeah.  High performance ships in TNE usually have a modest _volume_ taken
up by LHyd fuel; since LHyd has really lousy mass density and most other
components in FF&S are ridiculously dense, a 25:1 ratio of payload to 
fuel doesn't seem unlikely.

>Which means of course, that my earlier postings on how a Happy Fun
>Ball dreadnaught would melt/vaporise the top few hundred metres off a
>mountain when landing were quite wrong.  If powered by HEPlaR, it
>would actually take out the whole mountain and large chunks of
>neighbouring ones, as well as causing massive earthquakes as the drive
>plume drills deep into the crust (about 10 on the Richter scale,
>assuming only 3% energy transfer).

Hm...I get HEPlaR as about 2x10^7 W/newton, and a thrust of 8.5x10^12N,
for a total of only 1.7x10^18W.  That's only 400 megatons per second,
which won't instantly remove mountains.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri May 24 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gravity Oddness
In-Reply-To: <E17BKov-0004Bp-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEDLEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Check out:
>
>http://www.sciam.com/2002/0602issue/0602scicit3.html
>
>Some physicist believes that it is possible to use superconductors
>to transform EM radiation to gravity waves and back again. Other
>physicists are dubious, but if his experiments pan out I'm betting
>there is some way to get vaguely antigrav-like out of this.
>
>-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

The math is very convincing, though anyone without a couple of courses in
electrodynamics is going to have a hard time trying to follow it. His actual
paper is available as a link from this site. It's probably a case of the
math working out but the results being non-physical. My physics professor
calls the experiment a "proof of principle" which will either result in a
good paper about why it didn't work or a Nobel Prize if it does.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 17:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri May 24 16:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <B9100C16.5C4F3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEDMEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> I am working out an adventure idea involving a mega corporation
>> and stumbled across a problem.  Since a mega corporation is
>> spread across the Imperium and would have revenues in the billions
>> if not trillions of credits I am wondering about the value and or
>> amount of stocks each corporation would have.
>>
>> Would they have lots and lots of stocks at a low value or would
>> there be relatively low number of stocks with extremely high value?
>
>That depends on the company.  It also depends on what kind of stocks they
>issue.  Do the have common or preferred stocks?  And given the variations
in
>relative markets and the speed of travel, stock will probably have to be
>local in order for there to be meaningful trace in them.
>--

My question would be how was stock handled in the old days, prior to the
development of the telegraph? This would be an economic situation similar to
the travel no faster than the fastest ship situation in Traveller.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri May 24 16:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces and HEPlaR
In-Reply-To: <200205242246.PAA25927@molly.iii.com>
References: <200205242246.PAA25927@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020525094904.A15825@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Hm...I get HEPlaR as about 2x10^7 W/newton, and a thrust of
> 8.5x10^12N, for a total of only 1.7x10^18W.  That's only 400
> megatons per second, which won't instantly remove mountains.

Not instantly, no.  But then, the dreadnaught isn't going to land or
take off instantly either :)

I was assuming about a minute in the final landing approach, coming in
relatively slowly (e.g. 0.5 gee net, 1.5 gee total thrust) for the
last twenty vertical kilometres or so.  I'm assuming no atmosphere,
since otherwise things get rather complicated (like how is the ship
protected from backscatter?)

Total energy  60s * 15e9 kg * 15 m/s^2 * 2e7 W/N = 2.7*10^20 J.

Enough to vaporise about 30 cubic kilometres of rock.  Likely most of
it won't vaporise, but just shatter or melt and disperse like a very
large volcanic eruption, which takes an order of magnitude or so less
energy per unit mass.  So I get well more than a hundred cubic
kilometres removed.  That sounds like a mountain to me :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 18:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 24 17:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] War between Imperium memeber worlds and outsiders
Message-ID: <3CEE9250.14792.1F96FDE@localhost>

It was asked a little while ago if a world with in the Imperium can 
fight a non Imperium world without getting permisison or help from 
the Imperium.  Well it seems that every world has the right to rule 
themselves but turn foreign policy over to the Imperium.  
(from GURPS Traveller section on feudalism )

So if an independent world attacks an Imperial world the better get 
ready to be slapped silly by the Imperium's fleet.  At the same time 
a member world would not attack a non member world unless its 
Imperial policy.

This means that if a world wants to conduct a foreign policy of its 
own it has to be secrete.  Often fought as trade wars,corporations 
or mercenary actions.

Now the real question is what does the Emperor do when they hear 
about this happing? 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 24 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEDMEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <B9100C16.5C4F3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CEE9614.15743.20823B5@localhost>

On 24 May 2002, at 19:08, Terry Carlino wrote:

This is probably the key to my question.  My problem now is all my 
early econ history stuff is in storage  :(  I do image a lot of 
speculation.  In early American/British history, the three items 
most often speculated goods were minerals (gold/silver) cotton and 
land.  Corporations started to come into being to fund the railroads, 
and the manufacturing of the rails.  

> 
> My question would be how was stock handled in the old days, prior to
> the development of the telegraph? This would be an economic situation
> similar to the travel no faster than the fastest ship situation in
> Traveller.
> 
> Terry C
> All that is Gold does not glitter
> Not all who travel are lost
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 18:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 24 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: free computers
In-Reply-To: <OFF751C434.07937305-ON86256BC3.00762CA1@lsu.edu>
Message-ID: <3CEE96AA.31793.20A6CFB@localhost>

I thought one or more of you might be able to do something with 
this
> Subject:  FW: Gateway donating 4500 computers
> 
> Gateway Donation Program
> 
> Gateway will donate up to 4,500 of the computers used to power the
> 2002 Olympic Winter Games in Salt Lake City, Utah. These desktops,
> portables, and servers were supplied to the Salt Lake organizing
> Committee to track official event results, statistics, and standings
> for athletes, coaches, spectators, officials, and the media.
> 
> The link to the online application is at the bottom of the page at:
> http://www.gateway.com/olympics/donations/require.shtml
> 
> Application deadline May 31st.  Apply online.
>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 19:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri May 24 18:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces and HEPlaR
Message-ID: <200205250100.GZE02335@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Which means of course, that my earlier postings on how a 
>Happy Fun Ball dreadnaught would melt/vaporise the top few 
>hundred metres off a mountain when landing were quite 
>wrong.  If powered by HEPlaR, it would actually take out the 
>whole mountain and large chunks of neighbouring ones, as 
>well as causing massive earthquakes as the drive
>plume drills deep into the crust (about 10 on the Richter 
>scale, assuming only 3% energy transfer).
>

Hmm.  The Kzin Lesson.  It would seem that even a fairly 
small ship (1000 dton displacement) could have a drive that 
put out an enormous plasma jet that could be dangerous for 
kilometers.  An assault landing craft with a HEPlaR drive 
could make its own instant landing zone, and kill everyone 
who might be within close proximity.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 19:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri May 24 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TNS at JTAS
In-Reply-To: <B9111F8D.5C6F4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPEEEGEIAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Vive le Solomani.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
Sent: Thursday, 23 May 2002 1:12 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] TNS at JTAS


on 5/22/02 9:56 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

> Uhh, first that whole 'Stagnant Imperium' thing is sollie propaganda.
>
> Whether or not the people actually believe that is another kettle of
> fish entirely.
>
> Besides, give 'em a few years of MT-style Hard Times, and a glimse of a
> better life under Imperial rule, they'll welcome the Impies with open
> arms, parades and the keys to the city.

Hah!  Imperial propaganda.  No Trueman will suffer to live under the corrupt
and useless Imperial nobility.  Better to live free!

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
--
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 21:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri May 24 20:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] War between Imperium memeber worlds and outsiders
References: <3CEE9250.14792.1F96FDE@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CEF04EE.85F31FC0@mindspring.com>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:

> It was asked a little while ago if a world with in the Imperium can
> fight a non Imperium world without getting permisison or help from
> the Imperium.  Well it seems that every world has the right to rule
> themselves but turn foreign policy over to the Imperium.
> (from GURPS Traveller section on feudalism )
>
> So if an independent world attacks an Imperial world the better get
> ready to be slapped silly by the Imperium's fleet.  At the same time
> a member world would not attack a non member world unless its
> Imperial policy.
>
> This means that if a world wants to conduct a foreign policy of its
> own it has to be secrete.  Often fought as trade wars,corporations
> or mercenary actions.
>
> Now the real question is what does the Emperor do when they hear
> about this happing?

In the case of the action supporting the Emperors secret agenda they
could expect at worst a mild rebuke if it became public to covert
support at best. On the other hand, the ranking noble in the sector
might visit the offenders and persuade them to see the error of their
ways. And if that doesn't' work, a significant portion of the subsectors
numbered fleet might show up in orbit some fine day, with a cease and
desist order.



--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Sorry doesn't put thumbs on the hands, Marge.
                          -Homer Simpson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 24 22:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Fri May 24 21:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gravity Oddness
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEDLEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <001901c203a0$809f2800$2f7de40c@loki>

Terry Carlino shares, "The math is very convincing...a "proof of
principle" which will either result in a good paper about why it didn't
work or a Nobel Prize if it does."

Edward O. Wilson wonderfully describes in Consilience; Chapter 5,
Ariadne's Thread, Page 94-95 of the Vintage paperback edition the
concept of a beautiful thing that works but none-the-less doesn't
describe reality.

-peace-
The views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you
expect?
<n2sami@attbi.com>
<http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/> 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 25 05:58:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat May 25 04:58:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEDMEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20525.025554.8A1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> My question would be how was stock handled in the old days, prior to
> the development of the telegraph? This would be an economic situation
> similar to the travel no faster than the fastest ship situation in
> Traveller.

I think (I could be wrong) that back then stocks weren't traded a lot.
And when they were, it was in the area that the company had been
chartered in. So English companys would get traded in London, American
ones in New York City, etc. 

Stock *exchanges* are *far* newer than stocks. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 25 06:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Sat May 25 05:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces and HEPlaR
References: <20020524043110.1AD86279CE@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CEF7D93.A95ACFC8@earthlink.net>

Rob Davenport asked:
> 
> What was the 'ion drive' on the Cassini(??) space probe?  Vaguely
> similar, no? I.e. using very low mass particles as exhaust to provide
> motivation.

Actually, Cassini is propelled by main engines that burn nitrogen
tetraoxide and monomethyl-hydrazine. Sixteen smaller engines that
burn hydrazine are used to control attitude and to correct small
deviations from the spacecraft flight path.

You're thinking of the Deep Space 1 probe. Details of its ion
propulsion can be found at:

http://nmp.jpl.nasa.gov/ds1/tech/ionpropfaq.html

A rather nice Quicktime video of it being tested is there as well
as the probe's images of Comet Borrely's core (the first ever of
any comet's core).

David Smart


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 25 07:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Sat May 25 06:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces
In-Reply-To: <20523.141522.5D7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205231143120.17415-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CEF4F1F.783.27C7559@localhost>

On 23 May 2002 at 14:15, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> You've got them both mostly right.

Thanks - that puts my memory to shame. <g>  Do you have any 
references to these works (other than Dr. Forward's book)?

Rob

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 25 07:03:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Sat May 25 06:03:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <20523.125316.0N4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205230708150.17415-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CEF50CA.19398.282FAB3@localhost>


On 23 May 2002 at 12:53, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > specific impulse, and hence lift. Thus the fuel becomes the exhaust and
> > the H1 combines with O to make water (as it cools?).
> 
> Well, "cools" isn't exactly the right term, but it's the right idea. 

Loses energy?
 
> > Straight fusion would fuse the H1 into He(?) which then becomes the
> > exhaust with a different Isp.
> >
> > So if we started using these drives for thousands of launches per year,
> > we'd soon either have a water world with no oxygen, or all be talking
> > in high squeaky voices.  ;)
> 
> Not even close.

(well, the squeaky voices comment was mostly a jest...)
 
> First off, we'd be getting the hydrogen by splitting water into
> hydrogen and oxygen. So that'd be a wash. Well, since *some* of the
> hydrogen would leave permanently, you'd lose some water, but that'd
> take a *long* time. A *very* long time. And you'd be *gaining* hydrogen
> from ships that were landing, anyway.

I see.
 
> As for the "high squeaky voice" bit...
> 
> The surface pressure on earth is roughtly 1 kilogram-force per cm^2.
> Which means that there must be roughly one kilo of air above every
> cm^2. 
> 
> Earth has a radius of 6400 km. Which gives a surface area of roughly
> 500 million km^2. There are 1 million m^2 to a km^2. Which gives us
> roughly 500 trillion m^2. There are 10,000 cm^2 to the m^2, which gives
> us 5 quintillion (5e18) cm^2. 
> 
> So, the mass of the atmosphere is roughly 5e18 kg. 1% of that is 5e16.

You're right - that's a *lot* of atmosphere.

> So, to get 1% helium into the atmosphere, we'd have to dump 1 million
> tonnes of it per year for 50 *million* years. And it'd leak away faster
> than that. 
> 
> Also, producing 1 million tonnes of helium by fusing H1 to He4
> producers a *lot* of energy.
> 
> H1	1.00794 amu
> 
> 4 H1	4.03176 amu
> He4	4.002602 amu
> ---------------------
>          .029158  amu
> 
> 
> I'll skip the math, but that million tonnes a year of helium produced
> would be from generating over 2e25 joules of energy, which works out to
> around 7e17 watts. 700 terawatts of energy generated is going to give
> us more to worry about that "high squeaky voices"!!
>  
> It pays to keep in mind just how *big* a planet is.

Very true.  

So the comments I heard a few years ago about shuttle launces 
polluting the atmosphere are more alarmist than based in reality?

Thanks for the excellent reply,

Rob

--
Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com
If a man is alone in the forest, 
with no woman around, 
and he says something, 
is he still wrong?




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 25 07:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat May 25 06:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Citizens of the Imperium Message Boards
In-Reply-To: <3CEF7D93.A95ACFC8@earthlink.net>
References: <20020524043110.1AD86279CE@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3CEF7D93.A95ACFC8@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200205250908350944.1854A978@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

Just wanted to let anyone registered on the Citizens of the Imperium=
 message boards that I have upgraded the forum software and because of the=
 upgrade the URL for the boards has changed. You membership info and all=
 previous messages have been migrated over to the new location

http://www.FarFuture.net/cgi-bin/Trav/ixs/ultimatebb.cgi

Be sure to update your bookmarks with the new URL!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 25 13:41:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat May 25 12:41:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TNS at JTAS
In-Reply-To: <20020522072905.02B2B279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205252131570.30932-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Mike West writes:
>>      So, if the Confederation did fracture, ala Yugoslavia, what sort of
>>situations do you see developing?
>
>As a result the vast majority of Confederation territory would be
>consumed by the Aslan and Imperium.  I would expect that the Imperium
>would actually be welcomed with open arms because of the Aslan advances
>and because of the devistation wrought by the factional fighting.

I don't think the Aslans would get much. The canonical descrition of
Aslans makes the point that Aslans are incapable of uniting except in the
face of an obvious threat. So any interstellar state able to resist
the local forces of the two or three biggest clans around (which is
anything more organized than a pocket empire) should be able to stave
off Aslan invasion by armed means (Aslan infiltration by economic means is
another matter).

As for the Imperium, I imagine Strephon would allow any world that wanted
to to join the Imperium but refrain from outright invasion. (But that's
just my take of Strephon's personality).



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 25 15:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sat May 25 14:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TNS at JTAS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205252131570.30932-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <000201c2042f$df583870$0b01a8c0@duck>

> >>      So, if the Confederation did fracture, ala Yugoslavia, what sort
of
> >>situations do you see developing?
> >
> >As a result the vast majority of Confederation territory would be
> >consumed by the Aslan and Imperium.  I would expect that the Imperium
> >would actually be welcomed with open arms because of the Aslan advances
> >and because of the devistation wrought by the factional fighting.
>
> I don't think the Aslans would get much. The canonical descrition of
> Aslans makes the point that Aslans are incapable of uniting except in the
> face of an obvious threat.

Then how did they get so much Deneb/Regency territory?  MT pretty well
establishes that if the Aslan detect weakness, they will ruthlessly
exploit it.  The politics can be worked out later.

> As for the Imperium, I imagine Strephon would allow any world that wanted
> to to join the Imperium but refrain from outright invasion. (But that's
> just my take of Strephon's personality).

I completely agree with this.  I didn't mean to imply an Imperial
invasion.  They would just have active recruiting.  (Plus, they
would be busy enough cleaning up where they were invited.)

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 25 15:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat May 25 14:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <3CEF50CA.19398.282FAB3@localhost>
Message-ID: <20525.132533.8d9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 23 May 2002 at 12:53, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> It pays to keep in mind just how *big* a planet is.
>
> Very true.  
>
> So the comments I heard a few years ago about shuttle launces 
> polluting the atmosphere are more alarmist than based in reality?

Well, there are some concerns about it dumping various things in
*specific* parts of the atmosphere (at very high altitudes). 

Even so, the effects are apt to be *really* localized unless the launch
rate goes *way* up.

Flourocarbons are a different matter, because the chlorine acts as a
*catalyst* and stays in the ozone layer for long periods. 

Then again, it may be like the scare about mercury levels in tuna. When
they got around to checking *old* (100+ years) specimens of tuna, they
found that the levels were just as high. 

Tuna, like anything else at the "top" of the food chain just tended to
concentrate heavy metals. So the high levels were *natural*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 25 15:12:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat May 25 14:12:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces
In-Reply-To: <3CEF4F1F.783.27C7559@localhost>
Message-ID: <20525.133031.9r4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
> On 23 May 2002 at 14:15, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> You've got them both mostly right.
>
> Thanks - that puts my memory to shame. <g>  Do you have any 
> references to these works (other than Dr. Forward's book)?

The only references I can recall to the Launch Loop was an article by
Keith Lofstrom and somebody else in Analog back in the late 70s or
early 80s. 

A web search might tirn something up. I *know* that Dr. Forward has a
web site with a lot of stuff about rotating tethers.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 25 15:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Huxton)
Date: Sat May 25 14:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <20525.025554.8A1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20525.025554.8A1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <200205251819.41171.red@archonet.com>

On Saturday 25 May 2002 11:55, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
> > My question would be how was stock handled in the old days, prior to
> > the development of the telegraph? This would be an economic situation
> > similar to the travel no faster than the fastest ship situation in
> > Traveller.

The other thing to take into account is the availability of people to buy the 
stocks. I'd guess you're looking at about 1650-1850 for enough of a 
middle-class to emerge (in Europe) for trading to be noticable

> I think (I could be wrong) that back then stocks weren't traded a lot.
> And when they were, it was in the area that the company had been
> chartered in. So English companys would get traded in London, American
> ones in New York City, etc.
>
> Stock *exchanges* are *far* newer than stocks.

I do seem to remember several major scandals of the expanding colonial to 
industrial eras. South-seas bubble, various landgrab cons in the Americas 
etc. Part of the beauty was that people *didn't* have information so had to 
rely on reputation, plausibility and judgement of character (oh dear)

Scenario plot:
Someone who at least appears to be a minor noble of a respectable family is 
looking for backing. She's got convincing-looking evidence of large 
quantities of unobtanium ore on the moon of a backward planet off the main 
trade routes. She's the only one the local potentate will talk to, but since 
that business with the poet her family have cut her out of her inheritence. 
You *could* check it out, but that'll take six months and she's only around 
for 60 days...

Endless ways to involve your favourite group of suckers^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hplayers 
in this. Investigating the claim, body-guards, tracking her down...
They're bound to see the double-cross coming, so won't be that surprised when 
they don't find any unobtanium.

They will be surprised when they find the Zhodani spy-base...

- Richard Huxton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 25 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sat May 25 16:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fratricide, and modelling the Fog of War
In-Reply-To: <200205141720.GGG00101@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200205141720.GGG00101@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020526015255.32e6e0ca.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Catching up on 500+ old mails here... I seriously doubt I'll be able to
finish without deleting a bunch of them unread... damn you all and your
itchy keyboard fingers as well...  ;-)

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I'm wondering how some of you out there model target 
> identification and spotting, and what effect this has on a 
> party's ability to avoid a fratricidal situation.  Has 
> fratricide ever occurred in any campaign setting you've 
> played?

I let misidentification of targets come into play with fumbled attack
rolls. Any fumble results in me rolling some dice (high=trivial,
low=catastrophic), quite possibly resulting in friendly fire, destroyed
furniture, or whatever.

I have tried creating some rules for this, something along the lines of
"if other targets are within X meters of your intended target," but such
rules quickly become too cumbersome to handle without getting combats
bogged down. Quick-and-dirty rules also allow me the luxury of saving
characters from embarrasing deaths (unless, off course, I roll a '1').

And yes, fratricide has happened. Never in Traveller (mostly because I
*gasp* haven't run enough Traveller games), but several times in fantasy
RPGs, both Rolemaster and the Swedish game D&D (not to be confused with
the American game DnD). And Paranoia. Don't forget Paranoia.

> I'm not counting intentional fratricide...

Bummer, that kind of lowers the count  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 25 19:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat May 25 18:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TNS at JTAS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205252131570.30932-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEDPEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>>      So, if the Confederation did fracture, ala Yugoslavia, what sort of
>>>situations do you see developing?
>>
>>As a result the vast majority of Confederation territory would be
>>consumed by the Aslan and Imperium.  I would expect that the Imperium
>>would actually be welcomed with open arms because of the Aslan advances
>>and because of the devistation wrought by the factional fighting.
>
>
>As for the Imperium, I imagine Strephon would allow any world that wanted
>to to join the Imperium but refrain from outright invasion. (But that's
>just my take of Strephon's personality).
>

But what happens when what's left of the Confederation Government, or some
faction of the armed forces of the Confederation still under arms, decides
that acceptance into the Imperium is equivalent to invasion?  Will Strephon
send the Navy in to protect his new subject, even when it's sure to mean war
with what's left of the Confederation?


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 25 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat May 25 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TNS at JTAS
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEDPEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <B9158C7D.5CB16%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/25/02 5:58 PM, Terry Carlino at carlino@cox.net wrote:
> 
> But what happens when what's left of the Confederation Government, or some
> faction of the armed forces of the Confederation still under arms, decides
> that acceptance into the Imperium is equivalent to invasion?  Will Strephon
> send the Navy in to protect his new subject, even when it's sure to mean war
> with what's left of the Confederation?

Excellent point.  The Confederation is already fractionalized in the sense
that it is a confederation.  Imperial encroachment (or any other) might just
be the impetus to bring the Solomani together.  The rim war was an expensive
and near run thing, and the Solomani an another conflict would have the
advantage of interior lines.  I think it's false to view the confederation
as a Yugoslavia compared to the Imperium.  More like a less centralized
USSR, with military capacity not far removed from the Imperium's own.
Imperial 'infiltration' would be not unlike the US directly assisting a
breakaway Soviet Republic.  A much more dangerous proposition.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 25 20:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sat May 25 19:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TNS at JTAS
In-Reply-To: <B9158C7D.5CB16%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000501c20459$e7bbf310$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
> on 5/25/02 5:58 PM, Terry Carlino at carlino@cox.net wrote:
> >
> > But what happens when what's left of the Confederation Government, or
some
> > faction of the armed forces of the Confederation still under arms,
decides
> > that acceptance into the Imperium is equivalent to invasion? Will
Strephon
> > send the Navy in to protect his new subject, even when it's sure to mean
war
> > with what's left of the Confederation?
>
> Excellent point.  The Confederation is already fractionalized in the sense
> that it is a confederation.  Imperial encroachment (or any other) might
just
> be the impetus to bring the Solomani together.  The rim war was an
expensive
> and near run thing, and the Solomani an another conflict would have the
> advantage of interior lines.  I think it's false to view the confederation
> as a Yugoslavia compared to the Imperium.  More like a less centralized
> USSR, with military capacity not far removed from the Imperium's own.
> Imperial 'infiltration' would be not unlike the US directly assisting a
> breakaway Soviet Republic.  A much more dangerous proposition.

I figure that the only time a significant number of worlds (or, more likely,
any at all) petition for inclusion (or at least client status) from the
Imperium is after a pretty ugly civil war.  And after a civil war, the
resulting fleets will likely be *much* weaker, especially if (as is
implied) a significant portion are ready to mutiny.

So, most of the Solomani fleet has spent itself in a civil war, with
a good percentage that has either ran or ran to the Imperium.  At that
point, Strephon would probably welcome a Solomani challenge as it would
give him just cause to simply eliminate what is left of the Solomani
fleet.

I guess I am more pessimistic on just how savage a civil war the
Solomani would devolve into.  Remember, you have a leadership who *truly
believes* in their cause.  This isn't just holding onto power, it is
a true *belief*.  Belief like that will cause people to fight fanatically,
giving no quarter and asking for none.  In the face of that, the internal
opposition is going to fight just as hard because they know they will be
dead if they lose.  Better to die on the battlefield than be executed
as a traitor.

And if the Solomani do significant damage to themselves, Strephon would
most likely look eagerly to the opporunity to eliminate that dangerous
of a threat.  (Or at least make it go away for a long time.)

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat May 25 23:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sat May 25 22:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] TNS at JTAS
In-Reply-To: <000201c2042f$df583870$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEGDEIAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I also do not think the Aslan would grab much. The wars fought by the
Solomani have shown that when it comes down to the crunch against
overwhelming odds the Solomani will keep fighting long after anyone else
would have given up. Looks at the Rim War, this only came to an end because
both the Imperium and Confederation were running out of resources to
prosecute the war. Since then the Solomani have been building up resources
while the Imperium has fought more wars.

If this is in a pre-virus or no-virus universe several of the small states
between the Aslan and Solomani Confederation are I think Imperial Client
states not Solomani ones. But given that client states means military
support and that these client states are nomally already independent this
would make for a very good military campaign on a much smaller scale than
the rebellion.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Mike West
Sent: Sunday, 26 May 2002 5:05 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] TNS at JTAS


> >>      So, if the Confederation did fracture, ala Yugoslavia, what sort
of
> >>situations do you see developing?
> >
> >As a result the vast majority of Confederation territory would be
> >consumed by the Aslan and Imperium.  I would expect that the Imperium
> >would actually be welcomed with open arms because of the Aslan advances
> >and because of the devistation wrought by the factional fighting.
>
> I don't think the Aslans would get much. The canonical descrition of
> Aslans makes the point that Aslans are incapable of uniting except in the
> face of an obvious threat.

Then how did they get so much Deneb/Regency territory?  MT pretty well
establishes that if the Aslan detect weakness, they will ruthlessly
exploit it.  The politics can be worked out later.

> As for the Imperium, I imagine Strephon would allow any world that wanted
> to to join the Imperium but refrain from outright invasion. (But that's
> just my take of Strephon's personality).

I completely agree with this.  I didn't mean to imply an Imperial
invasion.  They would just have active recruiting.  (Plus, they
would be busy enough cleaning up where they were invited.)

Mike West

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 02:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)
Date: Sun May 26 01:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Baycon party
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10205260126410.25777-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

The Baycon party was a great success.  We had a smashing good time.  It's
over now though.  Please feel free to help us drink the sodas tomorrow;
Pierce and I don't want to cart 'em home, and his cooler leaks.

Kiri :)

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 05:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun May 26 04:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #554 - 20 msgs
References: <20020525190105.6E448279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001101c204a8$6ddfde40$695d8690@computer>

> From: timothyreynolds@earthlink.net
> This means that if a world wants to conduct a foreign policy of its
> own it has to be secrete.  Often fought as trade wars,corporations
> or mercenary actions.
>
> Now the real question is what does the Emperor do when they hear
> about this happing?

Nothing much, IMTU, unless they do something that really works against the
Imperium's interests.

There are zillions of different Imperial factions, all with their own
agendas.  There's no real difference between "a world", a noble family, a
megacorporation or just some other company in this respect.

Of course, if they _do_ start working against the Imperium, it's called
treason...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 07:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun May 26 06:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Chat #1 Report
Message-ID: <jcl1fucaiok47om5b71m4ktk4pv42m4q6k@4ax.com>

It could have gone better - but it didn't go badly.

Turnout was lower than I would have liked, but I suspect that at least part
of that was because it's Memorial Day weekend in the US.

Feedback from the participants suggests that it might have been better had
it been more organized; nobody could give me specifics as to how, though -
I don't want it to be too structured; that would turn people off; but at
the same time, I do see where some structure is necessary.

I'll try to clean up the transcript a little, and post it to Freelance
Traveller with next week's update.

The topic _will_ be revisited eventually.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 09:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May 26 08:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT) Ice oceans found on Mars
Message-ID: <20020526.105707.-414569.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Don't know if this has been brought up yet, but it may be of interest...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_2009000/2009318.stm


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"







________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 11:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May 26 10:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <20020521195329.9CC46279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020521195329.9CC46279A7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3y9e6j072.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> writes:
> 
> Tim, given the way the OTU is set up, I'd suspect that the control
> of Megacorps was by a quite small collection of people...mostly
> noblity.  However, I'd also suspect that there is a low priced class
> of *non-voting* stock that is very widely owned by individuals and,
> especially, governments and pension funds.

No real need for it to be non-voting.  Note the real world, where most
of us (acc. to the latest numbers) own some stock, and thus some share
in a company, and yet control of almost every corporation is in the
hand of large investors.  With a mega-corp it might be even more
pronounced.  Sure, LSP has 4 trillion shares outstanding.  The Emperor
holds 5% of that (200,000,000,000 shares).  Individual small investors
might hold 20-30% of the stock.  The remaining 65-75% is held by other
large entities: banks, pension funds, states &c.

> IMTU, the big Megacorps are holding companies with a large number of
> regional divisions.

That's not a bad idea either.  The parent might hold 56%, the Emperor
5% and the remaining 39% is up for grabs.  In that case the stock is
effectively non-voting.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cristo Resucita!  En Verdad Resucita!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 11:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May 26 10:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <200205251819.41171.red@archonet.com>
References: <20525.025554.8A1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <200205251819.41171.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <m3u1ouj02j.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Richard Huxton <red@archonet.com> writes:
> 
> I do seem to remember several major scandals of the expanding
> colonial to industrial eras. South-seas bubble, various landgrab
> cons in the Americas etc. Part of the beauty was that people
> *didn't* have information so had to rely on reputation, plausibility
> and judgement of character (oh dear)

I just had a thought--perhaps this is why nobility, honour and the
rest were so important to our ancestors, and so unimportant to us?
Back then one had to act from very limited information, and thus had
to be able to trust one's sources.  Nowadays one has a wealth of
sources, and any one (or even many) can fail, yet one still can make
an informed decision from facts.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cristo Resucita!  En Verdad Resucita!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 11:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May 26 10:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Die-roller program (was mis-jump question)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020521142604.0751dc20@mail.qrc.com>
References: <20510.145009.9u2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <20510.145009.9u2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020521142604.0751dc20@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <m3ptziizys.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

[snip idea about making 'd' an operator of the same precedence as
exponentiation]

Quite brilliant.  Very good indeed.  I like:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Eybershter undzer iz geshtanen!  Avade er iz ufgeshtanen!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 11:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun May 26 10:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <OF7F53BFC5.842A0752-ON42256BC1.0020ECF6@ko.com>
References: <OF7F53BFC5.842A0752-ON42256BC1.0020ECF6@ko.com>
Message-ID: <m3lma6izgh.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Clint Rynners" <crynners@afr.ko.com> writes:
> 
> Is it not possible for humanity to reach a point where a
> bussard-ramscoop type interstellar craft can be constructed, but
> getting into orbit remains expensive?

I'm not certain what benevolence has to do with constructing
spacecraft...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Crist aras!  Crist solice aras!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun May 26 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Mega Corp Stock values
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEPICDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: timothyreynolds@earthlink.net
>
>This is probably the key to my question.  My problem now is all my
>early econ history stuff is in storage  :(  I do image a lot of
>speculation.  In early American/British history, the three items
>most often speculated goods were minerals (gold/silver) cotton and
>land.  Corporations started to come into being to fund the railroads,
>and the manufacturing of the rails.

Prof. Kennedy's book about the decline of empires has a good discussion of
the development of the corporate form of business and of capital markets.  I
don't recall the title.  The Dutch really developed investment banking and
limitations on personal liability back in the late 1500s.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 12:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun May 26 11:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
Message-ID: <200205261831.LAA31114@molly.iii.com>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) writes:

>I just had a thought--perhaps this is why nobility, honour and the
>rest were so important to our ancestors, and so unimportant to us?

More likely it's because hindsight has given an irrational golden glow
to the past.  In the modern day warts are more likely to be exposed, but
there's not much evidence that people actually are less honorable.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 13:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun May 26 12:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TNS at JTAS
In-Reply-To: <20020526190105.903C027990@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0205262118170.22254-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Mike West writes:
>>I don't think the Aslans would get much. The canonical descrition of
>>Aslans makes the point that Aslans are incapable of uniting except in the
>>face of an obvious threat.
>
>Then how did they get so much Deneb/Regency territory?  MT pretty well
>establishes that if the Aslan detect weakness, they will ruthlessly
>exploit it.  The politics can be worked out later.

Actually, what MT established was that the Aslans found a weakness in the
Domain of Deneb that they had the ability to exploit. Unfortunately this
is totally contrary to the established canonical description of Aslan
society. The Aslan invasion of the Domain of Deneb is nothing less than a
full-fledged Canon Conflict. One that is so impossible to resolve that the
best thing to do seems to be to tone it down whenever possible and to
ignore it otherwise. But that doesn't mean that I believe one should
commit a similar mistake in the GTU.




Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 14:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun May 26 13:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <200205261831.LAA31114@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEECEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>I just had a thought--perhaps this is why nobility, honour and the
>>rest were so important to our ancestors, and so unimportant to us?
>
>More likely it's because hindsight has given an irrational golden glow
>to the past.  In the modern day warts are more likely to be exposed, but
>there's not much evidence that people actually are less honorable.

Apples and Oranges, Apples and Oranges.

It is true that if one takes the whole population its probable that people
are not any more or less honorable today than in the past. But, in the past
the trustworthiness of the great-unwashed masses was relatively immaterial.
The movers and shakers, aristocrats, the real middle-class (people like
lawyers, doctors and those few scions of the rich that actually who actually
went to college and ran businesses, as opposed to trades), and the rich,
dealt with a very small number of people. You didn't do business with people
you didn't know and since you knew them you didn't do business with those
that couldn't be trusted. If you had to do business with someone you didn't
personally know the you asked for references from people you did know. You
judged people you didn't know by their reputation, which meant what people
you did know told you about them.

If you gave your word, and didn't keep it, people would know and not take
your word. It didn't matter if you lied to tradesmen or the like, because
they didn't count. But you wouldn't lie to another member of your class
because then you would be a pariah.

Of course, since most of our ancestors weren't part of these exclusive
classes then the remark about nobility, honor etc is probably not accurate.
It does feed into a nostalgic feeling many white middle-class Americans have
about the period in the U.S. prior to the 1960's, as unrealistic as it is in
fact.

ObTrav: In the Imperium, due to both the characteristic of no travel faster
than the fastest ship, and the fact that a very small number of people in
the Imperium actually have any say in the greater matters of the universe
things like reputation is probably very important. Among the nobility most
relationships are probably personal, so keeping one's word, or at least
having the reputation for doing it, are probably very important. Likewise in
business, I would expect that large matters move relatively slowly. I'm not
talking about speculative cargo sales, I'm talking about mergers, stock
sales and the like.

People like the infamous Bill Mariner* will no doubt be able to take
advantage of the nave.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

*To read about Mariner see "Tales of the South Pacific" by Michener. An NPC
based on Mariner would certainly fit in the Marches of most GM's.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 14:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Sun May 26 13:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
Message-ID: <200205262050.NAA22175@molly.iii.com>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:

>>>I just had a thought--perhaps this is why nobility, honour and the
>>>rest were so important to our ancestors, and so unimportant to us?
>>
>>More likely it's because hindsight has given an irrational golden glow
>>to the past.  In the modern day warts are more likely to be exposed, but
>>there's not much evidence that people actually are less honorable.
>
>Apples and Oranges, Apples and Oranges.
>
>It is true that if one takes the whole population its probable that people
>are not any more or less honorable today than in the past. But, in the past
>the trustworthiness of the great-unwashed masses was relatively immaterial.
>The movers and shakers, aristocrats, the real middle-class
....
Were also no more honorable than today.  Treachery has always been a very 
popular pastime among the wealthy and powerful.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 18:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun May 26 17:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Oops!
References: <20020526190106.62B24279CC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c20519$1682fe40$6db18b90@computer>

> Message: 12
> From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 21:28:11 +1000
> Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #554 - 20 msgs

Well, I guess sooner or later I was bound to forget to change the subject
line....

<chagrin>

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 20:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun May 26 19:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High
Message-ID: <200205270239.HDA00950@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992311

Looks like there might be a nearby supernova.  If we live 
long enough to see it, keep a marshmallow handy.
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 20:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Sun May 26 19:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Reposting - Missed yet another digest...
Message-ID: <000501c20528$9332b5c0$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

Grumble, moan, da*&^ned ISp...

Could some friendly TML'er please send me a copy of digest #549?

Thank you for your attention. I return you to your scheduled list

Andy

--
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi              Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)	  	
 United Arab Emirates           +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 21:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (allensh)
Date: Sun May 26 20:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High
In-Reply-To: <200205270239.HDA00950@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020527032217.21364.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
>
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992311
> 
> Looks like there might be a nearby supernova.  If we
> live 
> long enough to see it, keep a marshmallow handy.

We talked about this on #Traveller...what would happen
if one star in, say the middle of the Imperium went
supernova? One calculation was that it would screw
3,700 star systems, or about 30% of the Imperium.

Has the Imperium just gotten lucky? or do they have
tech to prevent this?

Allen


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 22:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun May 26 21:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High
Message-ID: <200205270419.HDD00126@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

allensh says
>We talked about this on #Traveller...what would happen
>if one star in, say the middle of the Imperium went
>supernova? One calculation was that it would screw
>3,700 star systems, or about 30% of the Imperium.
>
>Has the Imperium just gotten lucky? or do they have
>tech to prevent this?
>

The danger space mentioned in the article is 150 to 200 light 
year radius.  If we assume a 50 to 75 parsec radius, at worst 
that's a diameter of 150 parsecs.

I'm not sure why they pick that distance as a danger limit.  
Supernova don't go that often, so I think that the Imperium 
is lucky.  Nova, on the other hand, and binaries that spawn 
this sort of behavior are relatively common.  To me, it would 
seem that a supernova is far more dangerous over a much wider 
area than 150 parsecs diameter, while a nova that blows off 
on a regular basis (due to regular accretion from a 
companion) is dangerous over a fairly short range, but more 
frequently.

Even a supernova remnant would be extremely dangerous to star 
systems that might be in the path of its remaining jets or 
radiation beams (consider being "close" to a pulsar - better 
than the Death Star, I betcha).
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 23:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun May 26 22:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High
In-Reply-To: <20020527032217.21364.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200205270239.HDA00950@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020527032217.21364.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020527150217.A8790@freeman.little-possums.net>

allensh wrote:
> One calculation was that it would screw 3,700 star systems, or about
> 30% of the Imperium.

That seems like a very high estimate.  I haven't seen anything to
indicate that one would seriously affect more than a sector.


> Has the Imperium just gotten lucky? or do they have tech to prevent
> this?

I'd say they just "got lucky".  However, we know the average incidence
of supernovae from observing other galaxies.  The Imperium may well
have a supernova precursor in its bounds.  If they got seriously
unlucky, it might even go off as early as one of the next thousand
millenia.

Astronomical timescales are *long* by human standards.


I doubt that they have the tech or resources to prevent it.  The
material resources of the entire Imperium fade into insignificance
compared to even a a millionth of a percent of the mass of one rather
small star.

Nuclear dampers (if they affect fusion at all - not IMTU) would need a
range of millions of kilometres.  Even then, I'm not sure how much
good they would do.  From (rather hazy) memory, there are two types of
supernova.  Type I accretes matter from a companion, eventually going
over the threshold of stability and collapsing.  Very quickly, it
reaches neutron degeneracy and rebounds.  Type II has much the same
problem.  When the core gets too massive, it undergoes a gravitational
collapse and a very powerful rebound.  In either case, the immense
amount of energy released comes from the (gravitational) potential
energy.

So, nuclear dampers can't really do much.  They might slow the
formation of the iron core of a type II -- but halting fusion leads
even more directly to gravitational collapse than continuing fusion.

Theoretically, if you got a *really big* contragravity field ... but
that's beyond the resources of the Imperium by a factor of about a
trillion, judging by the cost of contragravity units in starship
design.  Certainly much more expensive than moving a large chunk of
the Imperium to a neighbourhood with better-behaved stars.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 23:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May 26 22:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High
In-Reply-To: <20020527150217.A8790@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020527032217.21364.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3CF17B9E.31172.1DF04FC@localhost>

On 27 May 2002, at 15:02, Timothy Little wrote:

> allensh wrote:
> > One calculation was that it would screw 3,700 star systems, or about
> > 30% of the Imperium.
> 
> That seems like a very high estimate.  I haven't seen anything to
> indicate that one would seriously affect more than a sector.
> 
> 
> > Has the Imperium just gotten lucky? or do they have tech to prevent
> > this?
> 
> I'd say they just "got lucky".  However, we know the average incidence
> of supernovae from observing other galaxies.  The Imperium may well
> have a supernova precursor in its bounds.  If they got seriously
> unlucky, it might even go off as early as one of the next thousand
> millenia.
> 
> Astronomical timescales are *long* by human standards.
> 
Here is were I argue a bit.  Just remember the time and physical 
scale we are talking about with the Imperium and the space around 
it.  We are talking about 5000 or so years, over a distance of over 
20,000 inhabited star systems and many more with no life.  Surly if 
the odds of life occurring with just one known world with life on it 
are pretty high, then the chance of a super nova occurring within 
the Imperium is pretty high.  

Now what I am worried about is not just the physical damage but 
the social cost as well.  Not only well trillions of people die, but we 
will have government failure to save them.  Also those who get out 
of the way will be the rich, this will lead to resentment from people 
who figure that they wont be helped the next time.  You would still 
get huge migrations from those who can get off and out of the way.  

Tim Reynolds


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 23:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun May 26 22:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High
In-Reply-To: <200205270419.HDD00126@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200205270419.HDD00126@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020527152937.B8790@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I'm not sure why they pick that distance as a danger limit.  

Intensity of gamma rays, mostly.


> a nova that blows off on a regular basis (due to regular accretion
> from a companion) is dangerous over a fairly short range, but more
> frequently.

Not dangerous outside its own hex.  Supernovae are *much* more
energetic than the biggest mere nova by a factor of at least a
million.


> radiation beams (consider being "close" to a pulsar - better than
> the Death Star, I betcha).

I don't think so.  The Death Star disassembled a planet into fragments
within seconds.  That's a power output of at least 10^32 watts, in a
highly collimated beam.  The total power output of a pulsar (in all
directions) is about ten times less, and has a 'beam' very much more
diffuse indeed.  At planetary distances, it would be millions of
kilometres across.

Not that I'd want to be hit by either, thankyouverymuch!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun May 26 23:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun May 26 22:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High (long)
Message-ID: <20020526.223108.-109009.0.generalturokan@juno.com>


On Mon, 27 May 2002 15:02:17 +1000 Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
>.  From (rather hazy) memory, there are two types  of supernova.
> Type I accretes matter from a companion, eventually  going
> over the threshold of stability and collapsing.  Very quickly, it
> reaches neutron degeneracy and rebounds.  Type II has much the same
> problem.  When the core gets too massive, it undergoes a  gravitational
> collapse and a very powerful rebound.  In either case, the immense
> amount of energy released comes from the (gravitational) potential
> energy.
> 
> - Tim

Here guys - from my Redshift3 astronomy program

supernova (pl. supernovae)  
A catastrophic stellar explosion in which so much energy is released that
the supernova alone can outshine an entire galaxy of billions of stars.
In addition to the radiant energy produced, ten times as much energy goes
into the kinetic energy of the material blown out by the explosion, and a
hundred times as much is carried off by neutrinos.
A supernova explosion occurs when an evolved massive star has exhausted
its nuclear fuel. Under these circumstances, the core becomes unstable
against collapse.
Two distinct kinds of supernova are recognized, known as Type I and Type
II. They are distinguished by the presence of hydrogen features in the
spectrum of Type II supernovae which are absent from Type I. The light
curves of Type I supernovae are all very similar: the luminosity
increases steadily for about three weeks then declines systematically
over six months or longer. The light curves of Type II supernovae are
more varied.
Type I supernovae are subdivided into Types Ia and Ib, according to
thestrength of a particular silicon absorption line in the optical
spectrum. The line is strong in Ia and weak in Ib.
Type Ia supernovae are thought to be white dwarfs in binary systems,
where mass transfer from the companion takes place. A wave of carbon
burning through the newly acquired material could account for the energy
released. The explosion may represent the total disintegration of the
white dwarf. The nuclear reactions create about one solar mass of the
unstable isotope 56Ni, which decays to 56Co and finally 56Fe over a
period of months. This radioactive decay would take place at a rate
consistent with the observed decline in light output. The difference in
mechanism between Types Ia and Ib is not yet clear.
Type II supernovae appear to be stars of eight solar masses or more that
have run the course of stellar evolution and totally exhausted the
nuclear fuel available in their cores. At this stage their structure is
like that of an onion, consisting of concentric spherical shells in which
different nuclear reactions are taking place. Once silicon burning starts
in the central core, instability develops within a day because the iron
created cannot fuse into heavier elements without an input of energy. In
the absence of energy generation, the pressure balancing the weight of
the overlying layers is removed.
When the crunch comes, the core collapses in less than a second. The rate
accelerates as iron nuclei break up and neutrons form. However, implosion
cannot continue indefinitely. When the density of nuclear matter is
reached, there is a sudden strong resistance to further pressure, the
imploding material bounces back and an outward shock wave is generated.
The outer layers of the star are blown outwards at thousands of
kilometres per second, leaving the core exposed as a neutron star.
The material ejected in the explosion forms an expanding supernova
remnant. The neutron stars can be detected as pulsars through their radio
emission and, in some cases, by pulsed light and X-ray emission as well.
The explosion of supernovae serves to enrich the chemical composition of
the interstellar medium from which subsequent generations of stars are
created. Very old stars contain much lower quantities of the elements
heavier than hydrogen and helium than are found in the Sun and solar
system and many of these heavier elements can be created naturally only
in the explosion of a supernova. 
Supernovae are fairly rare events: only five have been observed visually
in our own Galaxy in the last thousand years. Others have taken place,
and radio emission from their remnants has been detected, but the
outbursts were concealed behind obscuring dust. However, Supernova 1987A
in the nearby Large Magellanic Cloud provided an opportunity
unprecedented in modern times, enabling astronomers to study a supernova
at relatively close hand. Numerous supernovae are detected each year in
galaxies beyond our own.
See also: Crab Pulsar. 


Turokan
 
..       .--   ..   .-..   .-..       -.-.   .-   .-..   .-..       ---  
-.       -   ....   .       .-..   ---   .-.   -..   --..--       .--  
....   ---       ..   ...       .--   ---   .-.   -   ....   -.--       -
  ---       -...   .       .--.   .-.   .-   ..   ...   .   -..   ---...


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 00:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun May 26 23:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High
In-Reply-To: <3CF17B9E.31172.1DF04FC@localhost>
References: <20020527032217.21364.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com> <20020527150217.A8790@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CF17B9E.31172.1DF04FC@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020527164408.C8790@freeman.little-possums.net>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote:
> Here is were I argue a bit.  Just remember the time and physical 
> scale we are talking about with the Imperium and the space around 
> it.

Of course.  A tiny patch of only about 0.00001% of the stars of the
galaxy, covering a timespan of only 0.00005% of the galaxy's
existence.


> Surly if the odds of life occurring with just one known world with
> life on it are pretty high, then the chance of a super nova
> occurring within the Imperium is pretty high.

On average, our galaxy has about one supernova per century.  So within
the space spanned by the Imperium, that's about one per hundred million
years.


[...]
> who figure that they wont be helped the next time.

You figure that the Imperium will be around for the hundred million
more years until the next one?  You think people will worry about
whether their descendants of that time are going to be helped by the
government?


>  You would still get huge migrations from those who can get off and
> out of the way.

Not for something that may or may not happen sometime in the next
hundred million years.  If it went off, yes.  But the chances of that
happening anytime in the Imperium's lifespan are rather small.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 01:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon May 27 00:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High
In-Reply-To: <20020527152937.B8790@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200205270419.HDD00126@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CF28852.30165.148B33@localhost>

On 27 May 2002, at 15:29, Timothy Little wrote:

> > radiation beams (consider being "close" to a pulsar - better than
> > the Death Star, I betcha).

> I don't think so.  The Death Star disassembled a planet into fragments
> within seconds.  That's a power output of at least 10^32 watts, in a
> highly collimated beam.  The total power output of a pulsar (in all
> directions) is about ten times less, and has a 'beam' very much more
> diffuse indeed.  At planetary distances, it would be millions of
> kilometres across.

Okay, so here's a question (a serious one, I'm planning a JTAS 
article). How long would it be before a supernova remnant would be 
safe to visit? And how far would you have to be from a pulsar to 
avoid the radiation beams?

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 03:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon May 27 02:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High
In-Reply-To: <3CF28852.30165.148B33@localhost>
References: <200205270419.HDD00126@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020527152937.B8790@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CF28852.30165.148B33@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020527195653.A9314@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> How long would it be before a supernova remnant would be safe to
> visit?

A great deal depends upon the effectiveness of Traveller radiation
shielding and heat radiation ability.  It appears from a few OTU
sources that both are extremely good by modern standards.  (Should
that be "a long established fact" per your sig? :)

Of course, it also depends upon how close you want to visit.  One
quick Google'd search (http://flash.uchicago.edu/~fxt/snlite.shtml)
yields a fitted light curve for supernova 1987A.  It starts at +500
days with a luminosity of 10^33 W.  Over the next 1000 days it drops
by a factor of 1000, and seemingly levels out at about 10^29 W after
another 1000 or so days.

It seems that radiation impinging upon Traveller starships can be
effectively ignored until it melts or vaporises the hull.  It also
appears that hulls may have radiators capable of operating at average
effective temperatures of 8000 K or more, although this is less
certain since there might be some other handw^H^H^H^H^H explanation
for waste heat dissipation.

What I haven't been able to find out is how much of this light comes
from near the centre of the remnant, and how much from the rapidly
expanding gases which would have already passed the jump-in point.


> And how far would you have to be from a pulsar to avoid the
> radiation beams?

As in, how far to make their intensity nonlethal?  A light-hour should
easily suffice for a Traveller ship, but I'm not so sure what the
ambient temperatures from other sources would be like.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 04:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antti Lahtinen)
Date: Mon May 27 03:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Volume image display
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020527131349.00bd92d0@ee.tut.fi>

         Long ago I saw a Challenge magazine cover which showed an
         interior view of the bridge of a Traveller survey ship (IIRC,
         the ship was "Donosev"). The bridge had a "holo-tank" which
         displayed a 3D image of the planet under survey.

         The idea of holo-tank -like volume display has become one step
         closer to reality:

         http://optics.org/article/news/8/5/26
         http://www.actuality-systems.com/

         The "Perspecta" is a dome-shaped volume display, which is based
         on a DLP projector and rotating transparent projection screen.
         The screen rotates 24 times in second and generates 198 image
         slices inside the display dome. The resulting visual effect is a
         3D image within the dome.

         The volume image can be viewed from any direction and does not
         require any headgear.

-- 
         Antti Lahtinen          antti.lahtinen@tut.fi
         MSc(Eng), researcher    http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 05:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon May 27 04:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High
In-Reply-To: <20020527195653.A9314@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3CF28852.30165.148B33@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CF2BCED.16134.CC4A53@localhost>

On 27 May 2002, at 19:56, Timothy Little wrote:

> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> > How long would it be before a supernova remnant would be safe to
> > visit?

> Of course, it also depends upon how close you want to visit.  One
> quick Google'd search (http://flash.uchicago.edu/~fxt/snlite.shtml)
> yields a fitted light curve for supernova 1987A.  It starts at +500
> days with a luminosity of 10^33 W.  Over the next 1000 days it drops
> by a factor of 1000, and seemingly levels out at about 10^29 W after
> another 1000 or so days.

So, after several million years, you should be able to establish 
some kind of permanent settlement? I'm thinking of some kind of 
mining settlement exploiting the heavy elements created (I'm 
ignoring the fact that anything around a supernova would be 
reduced to so much rubble and blasted out of orbit)

> > And how far would you have to be from a pulsar to avoid the
> > radiation beams?

> As in, how far to make their intensity nonlethal?  A light-hour should
> easily suffice for a Traveller ship, but I'm not so sure what the
> ambient temperatures from other sources would be like.

I was actually wondering about unshielded survival (ie how far away 
would a planet have to be to remain unaffected).

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
  Scientific terms explained #1
  "A long established fact"
  = "I forgot to look up the reference"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 06:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon May 27 05:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On: Robot Fighters
References: <20020526190108.0918B279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3CF222F6.28E05ACA@earthlink.net>

The first ever unmanned combat fighter has flown successfully, according
to CNN. The full story is at:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/05/23/combat.drone.ap/index.html

ObTrav: IMTU, at least, a good portion of Zho fighter craft are crewed
by robots.

David


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 07:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon May 27 06:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting the Stainless Steel Rat
In-Reply-To: <20020524.175913.-161931.2.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20020527133815.29288.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>

If the movie was from the "Adventures" book, I think
Stiller would be great as the Rat and Bruce Campbell
would mak ean excellent He.

Paul

--- knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> > Hugh Jackman comes to mind.  And of course, Johnny
> Depp can play 
> > pretty much any role he chooses, and play it with
> genius.  I suspect
> Ben 
> > Stiller could do the role quite well, also.  Yeah,
> I think I'd cast
> Stiller.
> 
> While I would *love* to see Stiller take the role, a
> dark twisted part of
> me wants to see Bruce Campbell play the part.
> 
> 
>                                             - Perry
> 
> "I think it's time we blow this scene...
> Get everybody and their stuff together...
> Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 07:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Huxton)
Date: Mon May 27 06:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEECEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEECEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <200205271404.22278.red@archonet.com>

On Sunday 26 May 2002 21:23, Terry Carlino wrote:
> >>I just had a thought--perhaps this is why nobility, honour and the
> >>rest were so important to our ancestors, and so unimportant to us?
> >
> >More likely it's because hindsight has given an irrational golden glow
> >to the past.  In the modern day warts are more likely to be exposed, but
> >there's not much evidence that people actually are less honorable.

[snip]
> ObTrav: In the Imperium, due to both the characteristic of no travel faster
> than the fastest ship, and the fact that a very small number of people in
> the Imperium actually have any say in the greater matters of the universe
> things like reputation is probably very important. 

Thinking about it, if reputation isn't important, I'm not sure you could call 
them nobility.

> Among the nobility most
> relationships are probably personal, so keeping one's word, or at least
> having the reputation for doing it, are probably very important. 

Good point, which means your nobles *need* to be moving between systems. 
Letters are all well and good (*), but you need to shake their hand and stare 
them in the eye to get a real idea on their character.

This means while you run the family estates, you need to send the children out 
to deal with your colleagues and competitors. It almost has to be family to 
trust them away for a year or so.

* ObTrav: the art of letter-writing is an important social skill in many TUs. 
The way you communicate conveys your character to the reader. Use of 
mechanical assistance in producing such missives is a social faux-pas of near 
Reaganide proportions.

- Richard Huxton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 08:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Mon May 27 07:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting the Stainless Steel Rat
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020524150725.02ef0a20@pop.speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <3CF24166.50704@magpiesnest.co.uk>

laning wrote:

> Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> Hugh Jackman comes to mind.  And of course, Johnny Depp can play pretty 
> much any role he chooses, and play it with genius.  I suspect Ben 
> Stiller could do the role quite well, also.  Yeah, I think I'd cast 
> Stiller.
> 
Jonny Depp ????


Wouldn't he have to learn to act first? Frankly, he's dreadfull.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 09:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May 27 08:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Supernovas in the Imperium
References: <20020527143009.0EADE279D4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001201c20594$3a639a60$6344fea9@bryan>

In the Antares sourcebook (not published) or related material the star was
supposed to go Nova (at least). I don't know if this made it into official
'canon' though, but it was in the works.

Bryan



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 10:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon May 27 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020526.223108.-109009.0.generalturokan@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEEGEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

I would remind everyone that just because the existence of a supernova is a
"one-million year event" for Known Space doesn't mean that a supernova
couldn't take a good part of a sector during the existence of the Imperium
any more than being in a "one-hundred year" flood plain means that your
house won't end up under water just because the location was flooded twenty
years ago.

The gist: If the GM decides that a supernova is going to hit Known Space
then that's cool. Two supernova might be too much.

Question: Was the stellar event that destroyed Darrian civilization a nova
or just a minor stellar shift?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 10:32:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon May 27 09:32:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <200205262050.NAA22175@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEEHEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>>I just had a thought--perhaps this is why nobility, honour and the
>>>>rest were so important to our ancestors, and so unimportant to us?
>>>
>>>More likely it's because hindsight has given an irrational golden glow
>>>to the past.  In the modern day warts are more likely to be exposed, but
>>>there's not much evidence that people actually are less honorable.
>>
>>Apples and Oranges, Apples and Oranges.
>>
>>It is true that if one takes the whole population its probable that people
>>are not any more or less honorable today than in the past. But, in the
past
>>the trustworthiness of the great-unwashed masses was relatively
immaterial.
>>The movers and shakers, aristocrats, the real middle-class
>....
>Were also no more honorable than today.  Treachery has always been a very
>popular pastime among the wealthy and powerful.

But the less honorable ones have bad reputations that extend to modern
times, while the honorable ones are also still pretty well known. My point
was that the contemporaries of such people knew that they couldn't be
trusted.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 11:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon May 27 10:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Clarkian Plot Devices (Was Something About Marshmallows)
In-Reply-To: <3CF2BCED.16134.CC4A53@localhost>
References: <20020527195653.A9314@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3CF28852.30165.148B33@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020527120206.00951b30@minn.net>

At 11:10 PM 5/27/2002 +1200, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>
>I was actually wondering about unshielded survival (ie how far away 
>would a planet have to be to remain unaffected).
>

What I would like to know is how an ordinary would affect other 
inhabited systems in a Traveller universe.


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It is time that those of us who can still honestly call ourselves
free men face up to one very basic fact: Those who advocate,
enact and enforce the form of predation known as "gun control"
are nothing more than murderers, and must eventually be dealt
with as such.       (R. Hemmerding in a letter to The Resister)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Number 201. Must not valiantly push officers onto hand grenades 
	    to save the squad. 		(www.skippyslist.com)
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 11:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Mon May 27 10:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Picky, picky...
Message-ID: <F205PlrwAnekVgKMy5K0000783e@hotmail.com>

I really dislike it when people call something a 'fighter' just cos it's a 
military aircraft.  Fighters are designed to kill other aircraft.  *Bombers* 
drop bombs.  *Fighter-bombers* (try to) do both.

As mentioned, though, the Predator UAV has been dropping bombs (guided and 
unguided) and firing air-to-ground missiles for some time now, and I think 
that the designers of things like cruise missiles and the Stand-off Direct 
Attack Submunition dispensers might disagree with this being the first 
autonomous mud-mover.

The only real difference is that this one was intended as a bomber from the 
outset (unlike Predator et al), and it comes home again (unlike JSDAM).

Please note that this is not a personal attack; I have a drone to do that 
for me...:-)

ObTrav:  The (merc) pcs are hired to fly 'stealth fighters' on a hot drop.  
Unfortunately the political hack doing the hiring forgets to mention their 
only offensive hardware is 250-kilo "gravity-assisted explosive devices"...

Jeff.


David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net> posted the following link:
>
>The first ever unmanned combat fighter has flown successfully, according
>to CNN. The full story is at:
>
>http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/05/23/combat.drone.ap/index.html
>
>ObTrav: IMTU, at least, a good portion of Zho fighter craft are crewed
>by robots.
>
>David
>

"I don't think you can dig your way off a planet, can you?"

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 12:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon May 27 11:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <20525.025554.8A1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20525.025554.8A1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3cf36d0b.16047339@post.demon.co.uk>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

>I think (I could be wrong) that back then stocks weren't traded a lot.
>And when they were, it was in the area that the company had been
>chartered in. So English companys would get traded in London, American
>ones in New York City, etc.=20
>
>Stock *exchanges* are *far* newer than stocks.=20

Bear in mind that most businesses in the old days (15th-19th
centuries) would be family-run or work on the master/apprentice
system.  It was only large and potentially-dangerous-but-lucrative
concerns like speculative trading ventures, colonisation, etc that
needed many investors and a means of spreading the risk. =20

If you wanted to buy stocks in such a company you would have to find
an existing shareholder who was willing to sell, and negotiate with
him personally.  I suspect that the typical Dutch burgher or English
merchant adventurer would regard his shares in the VOC or EIC the same
way a landed earl would regard his family estate - as a source of
status as much as wealth, and a sacred trust to be handed on intact to
his sons and heirs.  Buying shares might therefore require hanging out
in low dives looking for dissolute scions of the bourgeousie who might
be persuaded to sell their inheritance in return for ready cash... (I
trust the implications for a possible Traveller adventure are clear
;-) )

Having said that, the Dutch in the 17th-18th centuries were notorious
for buying up shares in lots of companies, even those based abroad -
and there were stock exchanges in Antwerp (1460) and Amsterdam (1602,
founded by refugees from Antwerp) long before they spread to the rest
of the world.

Incidentally, the New York Stock Exchange is apparently older than the
one in London...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 12:08:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon May 27 11:08:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Skyhooks/space interfaces and HEPlaR
In-Reply-To: <200205250100.GZE02335@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200205250100.GZE02335@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3cf473ed.17809471@post.demon.co.uk>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>  An assault landing craft with a HEPlaR drive=20
>could make its own instant landing zone, and kill everyone=20
>who might be within close proximity.

Less than ideal if it's trying to land the *second* wave of an
assault...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 14:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon May 27 13:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Clarkian Plot Devices (Was Something About Marshmallows)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020527120206.00951b30@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20527.124710.5Z0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 11:10 PM 5/27/2002 +1200, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>>
>>I was actually wondering about unshielded survival (ie how far away 
>>would a planet have to be to remain unaffected).
>>
>
> What I would like to know is how an ordinary would affect other 
> inhabited systems in a Traveller universe.

Ordinary *what*?

Assuming you mean "ordinary nova", the answer is that it *wouldn't*
affect other worlds. The closest systems would notice that the star had
gotten a lot brighter. But that's about it.

And don't forget that it'd take ~170 weeks per parsec (3.26 years) for
the change in brightness to reach the other systems.

And keep in minfd that only certain types of stars can go nova. They
have to be binaries for one thing. *Close* binaries. With the star
going nova being a white dwarf. And the other star being large enough
and close enough for mass transfer to occur.

It's the buildup of hydrogen on the surface that is what goes off when
the star goes nova. 

Type I supernovas use a similar mechanism, but the buildup occurs
faster and the blast disrupts the star.

Type II supernovas are red giants.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 14:19:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon May 27 13:19:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Supernovas in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <001201c20594$3a639a60$6344fea9@bryan>
Message-ID: <20527.124100.5E7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In the Antares sourcebook (not published) or related material the star was
> supposed to go Nova (at least). I don't know if this made it into official
> 'canon' though, but it was in the works.

Antares is the wrong type of star for a nova. It is expected to go
*supernova* sometime in the next 10,000 or so years if I recall
correctly.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 14:22:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon May 27 13:22:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High (long)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEEGEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20527.125412.7q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Question: Was the stellar event that destroyed Darrian civilization a nova
> or just a minor stellar shift?

It was artifically induced, so it doesn't count. 

And it was a sort of super flare. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 15:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Mon May 27 14:52:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Picky, picky...
In-Reply-To: <20020527190109.4F171279C7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020527144534.009f2820@mailhost.efn.org>

On Mon, 27 May 2002 17:34:08 +0000, "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I really dislike it when people call something a 'fighter' just cos it's a
>military aircraft.  Fighters are designed to kill other aircraft.  *Bombers*
>drop bombs.  *Fighter-bombers* (try to) do both.

I suspect that the imprecise terminology is the result of a conflict of 
expectations between the media (who expect robot air-superiority craft any 
day now) and the military (who do handstands to avoid suggesting that we're 
going to be putting fighter jocks out of work any time soon).

Pilots are already cranky about being assigned to Predator duty, which they 
compare more to playing a video game (no kinesthetic cues, etc) than real 
combat.  You think they're happy about the prospect of being replaced by 
robots, however performance-superior the latter may someday be?


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 16:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon May 27 15:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Excuses, excuses
Message-ID: <4f.1e056162.2a240a8e@aol.com>

A while a go I was involved in an interesting debate about defining sapience 
in the Imperium. Unfortunately I was buried under an avalanche of work and 
have managed to delete the original messages. All I remember with any clarity 
was that someone wanted some more information on the Nunclees from the "Alien 
Archive".

I also remember promising my thoughts on the morality of anagathics and child 
birth on long distance star ships.

I'm off to Rome for a few days but when I get back I promise to catch up.

Oh yes, the dog ate my homework ;) 

Charles

"Rule One: Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald wrinkly 
smiling men!"

Terry Pratchett, The Thief of Time

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 16:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon May 27 15:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
Message-ID: <200205272221.PAA21224@molly.iii.com>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
>>....
>>Were also no more honorable than today.  Treachery has always been a very
>>popular pastime among the wealthy and powerful.
>
>But the less honorable ones have bad reputations that extend to modern
>times, while the honorable ones are also still pretty well known. My point
>was that the contemporaries of such people knew that they couldn't be
>trusted.

Sometimes.  However, the reason the honorable ones are remembered is because
they were exceptional.  If being honorable were the norm, it wouldn't be
worth noting.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 16:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon May 27 15:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Mega Corp Stock values
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEPKCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: tml@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
>
>Having said that, the Dutch in the 17th-18th centuries were notorious
>for buying up shares in lots of companies, even those based abroad -
>and there were stock exchanges in Antwerp (1460) and Amsterdam (1602,
>founded by refugees from Antwerp) long before they spread to the rest
>of the world.
>
>Incidentally, the New York Stock Exchange is apparently older than the
>one in London...

New York was called New Amsterdam before the British captured it.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 17:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon May 27 16:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Mega Corp Stock values
References: <20020527190107.88004279BF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004601c205d5$aa2639c0$785d8690@computer>

> From: Stephen Tempest
> Buying shares might therefore require hanging out in low dives looking for
> dissolute scions of the bourgeousie who might be persuaded to sell their
> inheritance in return for ready cash... (I trust the implications for a
> possible Traveller adventure are clear

Are you implying that Traveller PCs are "dissolute scions of the bourgeousie
who might be persuaded to sell their inheritance in return for ready cash"
and who hang out in low dives?  : )

You may well be right!

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon May 27 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Supernovas in the Imperium
In-Reply-To: <20527.124100.5E7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <001201c20594$3a639a60$6344fea9@bryan> <20527.124100.5E7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020528092908.A10830@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Antares is the wrong type of star for a nova. It is expected to go
> *supernova* sometime in the next 10,000 or so years if I recall
> correctly.

I didn't think we knew to anywhere near that precision.  The best
substantiated guess I've seen for when it will go supernova is "soon",
as in the next hundred thousand years or so.  Of its expected lifespan
of about a million years, it is somewhere in the last ten percent or
so -- but as far as I can tell, we don't know much better than that.
I'd be really happy to see information to the contrary!

Given that it hasn't gone supernova by 1119 Imperial, there is about a
one in a thousand chance that it will do so sometime before 1200.  In
reality, there is about a one in two thousand chance that it will
supernova sometime during my lifespan, which would certainly be a
sight to see!

If Leonard's figure is correct, make those probabilities more like one
in a hundred and one in two hundred, respectively.  Chances are that
researchers in the system would be able to determine much more
precisely when it will go than we do in reality, since they can
actually go there and map the interior with high-tech instruments.  My
guess is that such research has determined that nothing's going to
happen for at least another few millennia.

Maybe whatever political entity is around by then will start to
evacuate a century beforehand.  Or just build big radiation shields.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 17:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Mon May 27 16:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEPKCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEPKCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3cf2c3b9.38239861@post.demon.co.uk>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:

>New York was called New Amsterdam before the British captured it.

Point ;-) - but the NYSE was founded in 1790*, by which time New York
hadn't been Dutch for well over a century...

Stephen
*(...and the London SE in 1801)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 18:10:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon May 27 17:10:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High
In-Reply-To: <3CF2BCED.16134.CC4A53@localhost>
References: <3CF28852.30165.148B33@localhost> <20020527195653.A9314@freeman.little-possums.net> <3CF2BCED.16134.CC4A53@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020528100946.B10830@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> So, after several million years, you should be able to establish 
> some kind of permanent settlement?

Given high-tech shielding, it should be possible to establish mining
operations in the system within years.  Not that it would be very
useful -- almost all of the heavy elements are in the extremely
diffuse gas moving outward at incredible speeds.  Over millions of
years, supernova ejections will enrich the interstellar medium with
heavy elements, and some parts of that will condense into new stellar
systems with some stray bits of heavy elements aggregatign outside the
stars.  Such stray bits of heavy elements will be called planets and
asteroids.

So in short: by mining planets and asteroids, you *are* mining
supernova remnants, with the heavy elements already separated out and
concentrated in easy-to-reach places.


> I was actually wondering about unshielded survival (ie how far away 
> would a planet have to be to remain unaffected).

A rough calculation shows that 50 AU should suffice, though there are
almost certainly effects that I haven't taken into account.  The
question is how badly the initial blast would have affected the
planet.  Certainly it would remain in pretty much the same orbit -- or
rather, what's left of it.  An Earth-sized planet would intercept
roughly 10^31 J of energy, enough to turn it into a glowing ball of
gas and liquid, and probably enough to lose a percent or so of its
mass.  It would probably take ten thousand years to cool to the point
where it had some patches of solid surface.  But then, I'm no
planetologist, so this is truly a gross BotE calculation.

The least of a prospective miner's worries would be the effect on the
planet of the newly-formed pulsar's radiation beams.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 19:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Mon May 27 18:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard
Message-ID: <00ea01c205e7$dd3c5c60$f94a1c43@customer>

Congratulations to the both Loren and Jon.  My confidence in SJG's
commitment to GT is boosted.  Congratulations to Steve Jackson for his
perception of talent.

John Scarlett




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 19:40:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hughes, Michael)
Date: Mon May 27 18:40:05 2002
Subject: [TML] SEC: UNCLASS Dumbest things done in a Traveller game and other as
 sorted stuff too
Message-ID: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17BC1@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>

We've all done stupid things in RPG's, the nature of orally transmitted
information from a GM with their own agenda almost always the culprit. But
the biggest shocker I saw was this. 

I was running a game set in the Rebellion, with the Travellers part of a
behind the lines unit being dropped onto a planet that was fighting with
Vargr corsairs. They had to retrieve something then call for pick up. They
were set down in an area intel pointed to as safe and started making their
way to a local village when they came across a Vargr patrol (they were in a
open topped Dahmler type car, the planet being Tech 5). Figuring they were
invaders the Travellers took them out. Needing to wow the locals in the next
village, needing help to retrieve the object, they decided the best course
of action was to sever a head and mount it on the head of a car (like Vivian
did with the leg from the young ones). 

They then drove into town...

... which had recently been occupied by the Vargr corsairs. 

My sides hurt that day. 

Off Topic, and probably directed at LKW, I'd love to hear about characters
that game designers ran. I know they probably didn't get time to run games
as much as they liked, esp in the heady days of the business, but what sort
of characters did they have? What cock ups did they make? What are some
humorous gamer stories from their own sortie into the wonderful world of
gaming? 

I have to say one of my favourite RPG supplements of all time was Rogues
Gallery from TSR (about 81 I think) which included characters from their
actual campaigns, as opposed to ones made up by designers. I'd love to see
something similar in JTAS (I'd even subscribe to see it). I'm pretty sure
Steve Jackson had a stab at Traveller in his youth so I'd like to see his
contribution. 

And I want to know. Did Marc Miller ever actually run Alexander Lascelles
Jamison in a game? 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 19:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Mon May 27 18:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Changing of the Imperial Guard-tardy response
Message-ID: <013c01c205ea$0c3cea00$f94a1c43@customer>

I know my previous post congratulating of Loren and Jon is a almost a month
late.  Right now I'm going through a back log of about 1600 e-mails (at this
time).  Sorry if my previous post confused anybody.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 20:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Mon May 27 19:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] another lost digest
Message-ID: <000601c205f1$633a0840$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>

This time it's digest number 555 that's not arrived... perhaps it's a
warning ?

Andy

PS - Listmom - The FTP Archives only go up to the end of March...

--
 Andrew Long            Email   AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
 P.O. Box 29030                 AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com Or
 Abu Dhabi              Phone   +971 (50) 661 0254 (Mobile)
 United Arab Emirates           +971 (2) 671 0434 (Home/Fax)
 --


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 21:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon May 27 20:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] face recognition
In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.90.4.1022534768.risko@chiron.csl.sri.com>
Message-ID: <20527.195304.1p1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

From the latest Risks Digest (see comp.risks)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 11:16:55 -0400
From: Dave Farber <dave@farber.net>
Subject: Face recognition kit fails in Fla airport

Thomas C Greene in Washington, The Register 27 May 2002
  http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/25444.html

The face recognition system in experimental use at Palm Beach International
Airport on 15 volunteers and a database of 250 snapshots.  The success rate
is less than 50%.  Extrapolations also suggest a false-positive rate of
about 50 passengers a day for a single checkpoint handling 5,000 passengers.
"Eyeglasses gave the system a great deal of difficulty, in spite of copious
Visionics marketing hype denying this particular glitch. Small rotations of
the head, fifteen to thirty degrees off the camera's focal point, also
bamboozled it repeatedly, and the lighting had to be just right."

  [PGN-ed for RISKS.  For Dave's IP archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ ]

------------------------------

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 21:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Mon May 27 20:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] another lost digest
In-Reply-To: <000601c205f1$633a0840$0400a8c0@MakaiSoft.com>
Message-ID: <B9184E14.5CCAB%listmom@travellercentral.com>

on 5/27/02 7:43 PM, Andrew Long at AndrewGLong@yahoo.com wrote:

> This time it's digest number 555 that's not arrived... perhaps it's a
> warning ?
> 
> Andy
> 
> PS - Listmom - The FTP Archives only go up to the end of March...
> 
Yes.  The new list management software doesn't handle archives the same way.
I'll see what I can do.
-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 22:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Mon May 27 21:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
References: <B9184E14.5CCAB%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001101c205ff$00154af0$1c577b83@gideon>

Ok, I need an explainable handwave for Inertial Compensation.  Having
re-read the recent discussion on inertial suppression and the agreement that
such suppression is impossible I desire an explanation that would not defy
every known law of physics.  As with all good Sci-Fi my one allowable
"law-breaker" (besides FTL <grin>) in MTU is the existence of Gravitics
(specifically solid state Grav Plates).  For the life of me I cannot come up
with a rational reason why humans are not shoved up along the bulkheads as
soon as the M-Drive initiates a 6G maneuver.  Most Ships are not designed
with perp decks and this seems to make things worse.  If I cannot come up
with a rationale soon my players are going to rebel and I will end up
shifting both my campaigns to the Mote in God's Eye model I use for my
secondary game.  Thanks for any assistance you all can provide me on this.

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 22:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon May 27 21:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
In-Reply-To: <001101c205ff$00154af0$1c577b83@gideon>
References: <B9184E14.5CCAB%listmom@travellercentral.com> <001101c205ff$00154af0$1c577b83@gideon>
Message-ID: <20020528144823.A12421@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Colosetti wrote:
> For the life of me I cannot come up with a rational reason why
> humans are not shoved up along the bulkheads as soon as the M-Drive
> initiates a 6G maneuver.

You do have grav plates, so all is OK.  The ship's computer has an
accelerometer, and instructs the grav plates to create an exactly
opposite grav field.  Well, technically speaking not exactly opposite,
but a field vector that when combined with the accleration gives a net
1 gee field toward the deck.

This is actually one of the simpler problems :)

e.g. Suppose the maneuver drive propels the ship's structure at 3 gee
'forward'.  The grav plates produce a 3.162 gee field acting 'forward
and down' on anything within the field.  (For those who care, the
angle of the field should be 18.4 degrees downward)

The net effect is that the Captain's cup of coffee is accelerated
forward at exactly the same rate as the ship in general (3 gee), and
accelerated 'downward' at 1 gee relative to the ship.  This keeps the
cup on the table and the liquid in the cup.


If the ship has no artificial gravity, or insufficient grav plates,
then there will a problem when the ship maneuvers at 6 gee.  Any free
objects will become dangerous missiles, and insufficiently restrained
people will almost certainly injure themselves.  Acceleration at that
rate in the longer term would bring its own set of problems.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 23:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Mon May 27 22:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Milieu 0
Message-ID: <030701c20607$d992a7c0$f94a1c43@customer>

Where's the best place to find background information on milieu 0 ?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 23:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Rutherford)
Date: Mon May 27 22:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] face recognition
In-Reply-To: <20527.195304.1p1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <CMM.0.90.4.1022534768.risko@chiron.csl.sri.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528012141.00bb7e70@mail.comcast.net>

At 07:53 PM 5/27/2002 -0800, Shadow wrote:
><SNIP>
>The face recognition system in experimental use at Palm Beach International
>Airport on 15 volunteers and a database of 250 snapshots.  The success rate
>is less than 50%.  Extrapolations also suggest a false-positive rate of
>about 50 passengers a day for a single checkpoint handling 5,000 passengers.
>"Eyeglasses gave the system a great deal of difficulty, in spite of copious
>Visionics marketing hype denying this particular glitch. Small rotations of
>the head, fifteen to thirty degrees off the camera's focal point, also
>bamboozled it repeatedly, and the lighting had to be just right."

The head rotation issue should be easily solved - a frame with two sharp 
wires that insert into the subject's ears to maintain proper head angle 
would seem to be somewhat simple to implement...



Bill Rutherford
worj@comcast.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon May 27 23:28:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon May 27 22:28:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
Message-ID: <200205280525.WAA32009@molly.iii.com>

"Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu> writes:

>Ok, I need an explainable handwave for Inertial Compensation.  Having
>re-read the recent discussion on inertial suppression and the agreement that
>such suppression is impossible I desire an explanation that would not defy
>every known law of physics.

Well, the 'inertial dampers' in Traveller aren't inertial suppressors.
They're actually a pretty trivial extrapolation of Traveller gravetics.

If you're willing to accept grav pong, figure they just create an artificial
gravity field that negates felt acceleration.  If you want to avoid grav
pong, assume the nature of M-drives is to accelerate whole objects, 
resulting in no felt acceleration.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 00:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Mon May 27 23:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Nobility
Message-ID: <OF00FC50DE.FB95BF8B-ON42256BC7.00206586@ko.com>

Greetings all

Although I have read the various essays in CT, MT and the Milieu 0 campaign
on the Imperial nobility, I still fail to comprehend how the system works.
How does the system articulate with the self-governing worlds? Are the
noble titles mostly symbolic, with some working in the Imperial bureaucracy
and military? Which real-world example is the closest match: Rome, Persia,
China, Great Britain, the USA with much more local autonomy? Are the
nobility all Syleans, or are they drawn from the various local worlds?

On a similar note, is there an Imperial Army, or are the Imperial Marines
the only Imperial ground forces, with colonial units used whenever
large-scale ground campaigns occur?

Please keep in mind that I do not have access to GT and all the apparently
excellent supplements that exist for it. Role-playing stuff is not easily
available in my neck of the woods - importing is the only option for
anything other than D&D. (Yes I know that I can order on-line, its just
that I am somewhat of a Luddite in that regard).

Could someone please enlighten me.

Regards

Clint Rynners


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 01:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Tue May 28 00:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Terror Advisory Map
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020528020643.007a7a70@minn.net>

I regret to say that this map is grossly inaccurate as 
there are no references to the hazards posed by penguin 
populations "held captive" in various urban zoological
facilities on the North American continent.

http://www.nationallampoon.com/terrormap/terrormap.asp


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic.					--Sir Arthur C. Clarke
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently advanced technology is really, really, cool.
					--R. Hemmerding
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 02:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue May 28 01:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Two plot hooks
Message-ID: <001901c20621$a8aa0f80$e05d8690@computer>

The following are two cool things from the Australian Broadcasting
Corporation  ( http://www.abc.net.au/ )

Have fun!

-----------------------------------------------

Tuesday, May  28, 2002.

Dracula threatens to suck charm from mediaeval town

Residents are concerned a theme park would suck Sighisoara's mediaeval
charm.

Dracula's enduring appeal may change the face of the Transylvanian town
where he was born, if plans for a theme park inspired by the bloodsucking
Count get off the ground.

Featuring a ghost castle with torture chambers, scary attractions and
restaurants serving fried brains, "horror jelly" and blood-red cocktails,
the $US32 million project involves developing a hilltop site near mediaeval
Sighisoara.

"The Dracula Park will be built here" proclaims a big banner placed by the
Romanian Tourism Ministry on the 60-hectare site, which is also a forest
reserve home to ancient oaks.

Easier said than done.

Infrastructure is poor, the nearest airport is hours away and investment is
hard to come by.

The Tourism Ministry says it has raised 107 billion lei ($US3.21 million)
from a public share offering intended to fund the project - much less than
it hoped.

However, Tourism Minister Dan Matei Agathon, whose other projects include
transforming Romania's Black Sea coast into a tropical paradise by planting
palm trees, says it is enough money to get going.

Sucking the city's lifeblood

Sighisoara residents and environmentalists oppose the idea.

They say the Disney-style park would destroy the character of the city,
which dates back to the 13th century.

Alexandru Gota, president of the Sighisoara Durabila group campaigning
against the project, says "it will kill the mediaeval character of the
city."

The proposed theme park is located less than a mile from Sighisoara's walled
citadel.

There is concern Disney-style kitsch cannot compare with Sighisoara's
beauty.

"A park like this is kitsch... absolutely ridiculous when compared with the
jewels we have here," Mr Gota said.

Sighisoara is the birthplace of the 15th century Romanian Count Vlad Tepes,
or Vlad the Impaler, thought to have inspired Irish author Bram Stoker's
Gothic novel Dracula.

Its central square is dominated by a tall clock tower surrounded by
fairytale houses with sloping, terracotta roofs.

A gilded dragon hangs over the entrance of a three-storey house in the
square where Vlad Dracul, Vlad the Impaler's father, lived from 1431 to
1435.

Dracul was a nickname the father was given after a Hungarian king awarded
him the Order of the Dragon - Draco in Latin and translated into Romanian as
Dracul, or devil.

The nickname eventually matched the bloody tales of Vlad the Impaler's
cruelty - a loose link to vampires exploited by Stoker in his novel.

Vlad the younger's favourite pastime was to impale his enemies as well as
thieves and criminals.

Their bodies were left on stakes on the roadside to serve as an example.

Many in modern-day Romania see Vlad as a symbol of justice amid the rampant
corruption that plagues the post-communist nation.

Sighisoara is a UNESCO-designated World Heritage Site and campaigners have
called on the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural
Organisation (UNESCO) to investigate the issue.

Lifestyles impaled

Residents fear a tourist stampede may impale their lifestyles.

So far, the town only plays host to an annual Dracula congress, where fans
exchange views on the Count over glasses of locally-made plum brandy.

The thought of more than 1 million tourists a year - as envisaged by the
tourism ministry - stampeding through the town on their way to the Dracula
park is an alarming prospect for many Sighisoara residents.

"It's true that the ministry promised 4,000 jobs at the park but what's
going to happen after work there is finished?" resident Sandor Csiszer said.

Another Sighisoara resident complains property prices shot up after plans
for the park were made public.

"Prices of houses have doubled, even trebled... many come from Bucharest and
even from abroad to buy houses to turn them into small hotels," said Aglae
Coman.

"My struggle to survive on just my pension is already a horror," she said.

"I don't need any more."

 2002 Australian Broadcasting Corporation

--------------------------------------------------------

Tue, May 28 2002 5:17 PM AEST

Researchers hope to clone extinct Tasmanian tiger

Breakthrough in Tassie tiger cloning attempt

Australian researchers say they have overcome a major hurdle in their quest
to clone the extinct Tasmanian tiger.

The last known Tasmanian tiger died in captivity in 1936.

Researchers at the Australian Museum have spent the last two years trying to
bring it back to life.

The research team says it has successfully replicated Tasmanian tiger genes.

The director of the Australian Museum, Professor Mike Archer, says the
breakthrough makes genetic cloning possible.

"Clearly the DNA we've recovered is not extinct, it works and it should with
further research be able to code eventually protein synthesis and other
steps required to bring...[it] back to life," Professor Archer said.

 2002 Australian Broadcasting Corporation


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 02:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Justin Bunnell)
Date: Tue May 28 01:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] face recognition
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528012141.00bb7e70@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIENNDOAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>

If eyeglasses cause problems, I wonder what sunglasses do...

Justin

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Bill Rutherford
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 10:23 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] face recognition


At 07:53 PM 5/27/2002 -0800, Shadow wrote:
><SNIP>
>The face recognition system in experimental use at Palm Beach International
>Airport on 15 volunteers and a database of 250 snapshots.  The success rate
>is less than 50%.  Extrapolations also suggest a false-positive rate of
>about 50 passengers a day for a single checkpoint handling 5,000
passengers.
>"Eyeglasses gave the system a great deal of difficulty, in spite of copious
>Visionics marketing hype denying this particular glitch. Small rotations of
>the head, fifteen to thirty degrees off the camera's focal point, also
>bamboozled it repeatedly, and the lighting had to be just right."

The head rotation issue should be easily solved - a frame with two sharp
wires that insert into the subject's ears to maintain proper head angle
would seem to be somewhat simple to implement...



Bill Rutherford
worj@comcast.net

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 03:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue May 28 02:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <20020528082807.C3B1F279FC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528021852.009f33d0@mailhost.efn.org>

On Mon, 27 May 2002 15:37:28 -0700, "Glenn M. Goffin" 
<gmgoffin@earthlink.net> wrote:

>New York was called New Amsterdam before the British captured it.
>
>--Glenn

Why they changed it, I can't say
(People just liked it better that way)



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 03:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Tue May 28 02:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Picky, picky...
Message-ID: <F175FKWCeS9hplfjlLQ000086ab@hotmail.com>

In reply to me,  "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>

<<SNIP>>
>I suspect that the imprecise terminology is the result of a conflict of
>expectations between the media (who expect robot air-superiority craft any
>day now) and the military (who do handstands to avoid suggesting that we're
>going to be putting fighter jocks out of work any time soon).
<<UNSNIP>>
Personally, I lean towards the "media (who who have to spend so much time 
watching some snot-nosed little oik doesn't steal their slot that they don't 
have time to really learn a subject)" theory - it's either that, or the 
"media (who wouldn't know how to research a story and have to rely on some 
snot-nosed little oik to tell them what is what)"...

<<SNIP>>
>Pilots are already cranky about being assigned to Predator duty, which they
>compare more to playing a video game (no kinesthetic cues, etc) than real
>combat.  You think they're happy about the prospect of being replaced by
>robots, however performance-superior the latter may someday be?
<<UNSNIP>>

You think that's why they're worried?  Picture the scene, a flyboy trying to 
chat up some young, impressionable airhead in a bar...
"So there I was, five hundred klicks behind the lines, struggling to avoid 
enemy fire..." accompanied by much waving of hands to indicate maneuvers.
Young woman thinks "Wow, how brave, 200 miles behind enemy lines!"
Pilot thjinking "I hope she doesn't realise it's a remote-controlled 
airplane!"

Jeff.

Tarzan's last words?  "Who greased that vi-i-i-i-i-aaaiiigghh!"

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 05:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue May 28 04:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] face recognition
In-Reply-To: <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIENNDOAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528012141.00bb7e70@mail.comcast.net>
 <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIENNDOAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020528132054.0f804d1d.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Justin Bunnell wrote:
> If eyeglasses cause problems, I wonder what sunglasses do...

It's not strange at all that glasses cause problems. Humans also have
problems recognizing people who normally don't have glasses when they put
glasses on (and vice versa).

Actually, I finished coding some face recognition software about a week
ago (as a part of a course in Classification/Machine learning/Neural
networks). We only worked with faces photographed at the exact same angle,
and with the surrounding area blacked out. Imaging putting a camera in the
bottom of a black rubber tube and putting your head at the other end of
the tube to be photographed (actually, I think that's what they've done).
Also, all the faces had somewhat neutral expressions. Some smiled, but not
overly so.

We had no problems with different light conditions. In fact, some of the
test images had light coming from one side, some from the other, and some
from both.

The actual exercise was to correctly identify one severely distorted (by
salt-pepper noise) image as one of the other faces. Doing this by just
looking at the images was not really possible (you could guess, but you
was nowhere near sure). Our system managed to identify the face with an
approximate confidence of over 95%. If anyone is interested, I could post
the image data on the web somewhere.

ObTrav: Considering the less-than-advanced state of computers in the OTU,
there probably is no face recognition software in use for opening doors
and such. I imagine the security systems to rely on ID cards in normal
cases, ID cards and PIN codes in secure locations, and retina and/or
fingerprint scans in very secure locations.

This also makes for better adventures, since it's a lot easier to steal an
ID card than to chop off someone's head. Also, advanced facial recognition
software would probably also be able to recognize a face in pain,
unconscious, or whatever, making such schemes even less plausible.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 05:20:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue May 28 04:20:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Milieu 0
In-Reply-To: <030701c20607$d992a7c0$f94a1c43@customer>
References: <030701c20607$d992a7c0$f94a1c43@customer>
Message-ID: <20020528132138.448c77dc.jenry023@student.liu.se>

John Scarlett wrote:
> Where's the best place to find background information on milieu 0 ?

Apart from the various source books released by the now defunct Imperium
Games, I'd answer: This list.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue May 28 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Nobility
References: <20020528082805.A6608279FB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c2063d$302b21e0$50b28b90@computer>

> From: "Clint Rynners"
> How does the system articulate with the self-governing worlds? Are the
> noble titles mostly symbolic, with some working in the Imperial
> bureaucracy and military?

There are about as many different opinions as there are people to have
opinions.  Apparently GT:Nobles is in the works, and this will probably give
some "official" answers.  What follows are my opinions.

Some of the nobles govern worlds.  Some don't.  Some control huge
interstellar corporations.  Some don't.  Some command huge fleets, or huge
bureaucracies.  Some head religious organisations that make the Pope look
like a parish priest.  Some are fabulously wealthy.  Others are little more
than dirt farmers with a proud family history.  Some are respected
figurehead heads of states, and others are bureaucrats running starports.
Some are the friends and confidantes of the Emperor, and some are enlisted
personnel in the Marines...

Basically, (and remember that this is IMTU - other people will disagree)
anyone who is in anyway important, or notable, or descended from or related
to or blackmailing anyone who is important or notable, has a fair chance of
being given some sort of title.  Their power doesn't stem from the title.
The title follows the power.

> Which real-world example is the closest match: Rome, Persia,
> China, Great Britain, the USA with much more local autonomy?

More like the Holy Roman Empire than any of these.  The Imperium is a
confederation of smaller states.  Some of the examples you gave resembled
this at various points, but rarely intentionally!

> Are the nobility all Syleans, or are they drawn from the various local
> worlds?

From everywhere in the Imperium.  Not all are human!

> On a similar note, is there an Imperial Army, or are the Imperial Marines
> the only Imperial ground forces, with colonial units used whenever
> large-scale ground campaigns occur?

According to GT:  Ground Forces, yes, there is an Imperial Army.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com










From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 05:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue May 28 04:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] face recognition
In-Reply-To: <20020528132054.0f804d1d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528012141.00bb7e70@mail.comcast.net> <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIENNDOAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com> <20020528132054.0f804d1d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020528215136.A13057@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> The actual exercise was to correctly identify one severely distorted
> (by salt-pepper noise) image as one of the other faces.
[...]
> Our system managed to identify the face with an approximate
> confidence of over 95%.

Yep, computers are *much* better than humans at extracting data from
uniform noise sources.  On the other hand, humans are much better at
ignoring higher-level distortions such as rotation, highly non-uniform
noise types, and lighting variations.

(Interestingly, hand-tweaked computer image processing and matching is
*extremely* good, better than either human or computer alone.
However, it is time-consuming and not at all easy to do)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 08:20:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gonzalez)
Date: Tue May 28 07:20:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
In-Reply-To: <006001c2013e$fd2d4dc0$1c577b83@housing.res.kent.edu>
Message-ID: <20020528141909.6887.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>

You could have a socialist/communist dictatorship and
call it the Peoples Alliance. 

--- Anthony Colosetti <acoloset@kent.edu> wrote:
> <quote>
> 
> I'm still trying to convince myself that the
> "old government" isn't called the Imperium.  It
> can't be the Federation,
> since I reserved this term for "the good guys".  I
> don't want to call the
> "old government" the Republic, because it sounds too
> Star Wars, and the
> various alternatives of Confederation, League,
> Alliance, Union and so on
> haven't impressed me yet.  Maybe I'll make a
> decision this afternoon.
> 
> Alan Bradley
> abradley1@bigpond.com
> 
> </quote>
> 
> Hegemony
> 
> Anthony Colosetti
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 08:24:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Tue May 28 07:24:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High (long)
In-Reply-To: <20527.125412.7q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEEMEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> Question: Was the stellar event that destroyed Darrian civilization a
nova
>> or just a minor stellar shift?
>
>It was artifically induced, so it doesn't count.
>
>And it was a sort of super flare.
>
I don't know about the super-flare part, but the event was not artificially
induced. It was a natural disaster that the Darrians passed off as
artificially induced, as propaganda to frighten their enemies. It has only
been recently that they have really perfected the weapon, giving truth to
the lie.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 08:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Erich Brackmann)
Date: Tue May 28 07:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Darrian Marshmellows
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEEMEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <OGBBICAMOLJHJILPIOEPOEFJCAAA.kaukgannir@comcast.net>

I don't know about the super-flare part, but the event was not artificially
induced. It was a natural disaster that the Darrians passed off as
artificially induced, as propaganda to frighten their enemies. It has only
been recently that they have really perfected the weapon, giving truth to
the lie.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

	I don't have my old Alien modules anymore, but as I recall it went like
this...

	Darrian solar probe _accidentally_ creates a solar flare which bathes their
planet and sends them back a few centuries in terms of technical prowess.
(related example see Dragon's Egg/Spinquake - Howard).

	Darrians use this as evidence of their ability to do so as a threat versus
the Sword Worlds and the Zhodani.  No one messes with the golden people now!

	Darrians actually figure out what they did and can reproduce it on purpose
(where did they test it? :) )  I believe that was the focus of the adventure
in said module.

	Eventually I'll re-buy them when the re-prints come out, since DGP never
got around to a third one.

	Erich


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 09:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May 28 08:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
Message-ID: <149.f1cb884.2a24f727@cs.com>

--part1_149.f1cb884.2a24f727_boundary
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Anthony Colosetti writes:


> Ok, I need an explainable handwave for Inertial Compensation.  Having
> re-read the recent discussion on inertial suppression and the agreement that
> such suppression is impossible I desire an explanation that would not defy
> every known law of physics.  As with all good Sci-Fi my one allowable
> "law-breaker" (besides FTL <grin>) in MTU is the existence of Gravitics
> (specifically solid state Grav Plates).  For the life of me I cannot come up
> with a rational reason why humans are not shoved up along the bulkheads as
> soon as the M-Drive initiates a 6G maneuver.  Most Ships are not designed
> with perp decks and this seems to make things worse.  If I cannot come up
> with a rationale soon my players are going to rebel and I will end up
> shifting both my campaigns to the Mote in God's Eye model I use for my
> secondary game.  Thanks for any assistance you all can provide me on this.
> 
> Anthony Colosetti
> 

IMTU, the gravitic drive acts in a similar fashion as the jump drive. The 
jump drive isolates the ship from realspace as it jumps, using the jump grid 
built into the ship's hull to do so. The gravitic drive uses a similar system 
to act as a type of gravitic Faraday cage, isolating the interior of the ship 
from external gravitic effects as well as providing inertial compensation. 
Not realistic physics by any means, but good enough for a space opera 
role-playing game.

Doug Grimes

--part1_149.f1cb884.2a24f727_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>Anthony Colosetti writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Ok, I need an explainable handwave for Inertial Compensation. &nbsp;Having
<BR>re-read the recent discussion on inertial suppression and the agreement that
<BR>such suppression is impossible I desire an explanation that would not defy
<BR>every known law of physics. &nbsp;As with all good Sci-Fi my one allowable
<BR>"law-breaker" (besides FTL &lt;grin&gt;) in MTU is the existence of Gravitics
<BR>(specifically solid state Grav Plates). &nbsp;For the life of me I cannot come up
<BR>with a rational reason why humans are not shoved up along the bulkheads as
<BR>soon as the M-Drive initiates a 6G maneuver. &nbsp;Most Ships are not designed
<BR>with perp decks and this seems to make things worse. &nbsp;If I cannot come up
<BR>with a rationale soon my players are going to rebel and I will end up
<BR>shifting both my campaigns to the Mote in God's Eye model I use for my
<BR>secondary game. &nbsp;Thanks for any assistance you all can provide me on this.
<BR>
<BR>Anthony Colosetti
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>IMTU, the gravitic drive acts in a similar fashion as the jump drive. The jump drive isolates the ship from realspace as it jumps, using the jump grid built into the ship's hull to do so. The gravitic drive uses a similar system to act as a type of gravitic Faraday cage, isolating the interior of the ship from external gravitic effects as well as providing inertial compensation. Not realistic physics by any means, but good enough for a space opera role-playing game.
<BR>
<BR>Doug Grimes</FONT></HTML>

--part1_149.f1cb884.2a24f727_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 09:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May 28 08:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Supernovas in the Imperium
References: <20020528082807.C3B1F279FC@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c2065c$43908da0$6344fea9@bryan>


Message: 9
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 09:29:08 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Supernovas in the Imperium
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Antares is the wrong type of star for a nova. It is expected to go
>> *supernova* sometime in the next 10,000 or so years if I recall
>> correctly.
>
>I didn't think we knew to anywhere near that precision.  The best
>substantiated guess I've seen for when it will go supernova is "soon",
>as in the next hundred thousand years or so.  Of its expected lifespan
>of about a million years, it is somewhere in the last ten percent or
>so -- but as far as I can tell, we don't know much better than that.
>I'd be really happy to see information to the contrary!


Okay I stand corrected (actually I recalled it as a supernova, but didn't
want to overstate it).

Bryan



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 09:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue May 28 08:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Updates - T20 and otherwise
Message-ID: <002b01c2065c$89ed8dc0$7bea93c3@martinjd>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C20664.D10BC160
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


First, the big one. The final segment of the T20 rulebook went up for =
nitpicking today. We expect to have the playtester comments collated and =
final edit done about a week today. The rulebook will then go to layout =
and appear before you know it!

Traveller's Aide #2 is also just days from its appearance; editing of TA =
#3 should begin sometime very soon after that.

On a related note, The Fiction Works, which publishes one of my novels =
(In Glory Die) in ebook form, is having a sale. They're offering 30% off =
the cover price of $6.95 until the end ofd June. Relevant URLs are:

 http://www.fictionworks.com/efantasy.htm

http://www.fictionworks.com/einglorydie.htm

More as it happens, folks.

Regards

MJD

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C20664.D10BC160
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First, the big one. The final segment =
of the T20=20
rulebook went up for nitpicking today. We expect to have the playtester =
comments=20
collated and final edit done about a week today. The rulebook will then =
go to=20
layout and appear before you know it!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Traveller's Aide #2 is also just days =
from its=20
appearance; editing of TA #3 should begin sometime very soon after=20
that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>On a related note, The Fiction Works,=20
which&nbsp;publishes one of my novels (In Glory Die) in ebook form, is =
having a=20
sale. They'r</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>e offering 30% off the =
cover price of=20
$6.95 until the end ofd June. Relevant URLs are:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;<A=20
href=3D"http://www.fictionworks.com/efantasy.htm">http://www.fictionworks=
.com/efantasy.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.fictionworks.com/einglorydie.htm">http://www.fictionwo=
rks.com/einglorydie.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>More as it happens, folks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>MJD</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C20664.D10BC160--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 10:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue May 28 09:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Milieu 0
References: <030701c20607$d992a7c0$f94a1c43@customer>
Message-ID: <3CF3AA90.3060207@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John Scarlett wrote:
> Where's the best place to find background information on milieu 0 ?

Why, that would be the generally good Imperium Games supplement Milieu 
0, actually. That was one of the better supplements they produced, imo.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 10:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Tue May 28 09:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High (long)
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEEMEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <005d01c20662$2d0a0bf0$c300a8c0@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 3:18 PM
Subject: RE: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High (long)


> >> Question: Was the stellar event that destroyed Darrian civilization a
> nova
> >> or just a minor stellar shift?
> >
> >It was artifically induced, so it doesn't count.
> >
> >And it was a sort of super flare.
> >
> I don't know about the super-flare part, but the event was not
artificially
> induced. It was a natural disaster that the Darrians passed off as
> artificially induced, as propaganda to frighten their enemies. It has only
> been recently that they have really perfected the weapon, giving truth to
> the lie.

No, It WAS artificially induced, though due to the induction being caused by
two seperate mechanisms (each operating without knowledge of the other)
interacting, and records of one of the mechanisms being lost in the disaster
that followed, it was not known how to reproduce the effect until the
classic era of Traveller.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 12:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue May 28 11:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Nobility
In-Reply-To: <OF00FC50DE.FB95BF8B-ON42256BC7.00206586@ko.com>
References: <OF00FC50DE.FB95BF8B-ON42256BC7.00206586@ko.com>
Message-ID: <3cf3c420.3147492@post.demon.co.uk>

"Clint Rynners" <crynners@afr.ko.com> writes:

>How does the system articulate with the self-governing worlds? Are the
>noble titles mostly symbolic, with some working in the Imperial =
bureaucracy
>and military?=20

As far as I understand it (and like Alan said, there are lots of
different interpretations):

The Imperial heirarchy is fairly uniform down to the subsector level
(dukes).  Below that, it's all very ad hoc.  The basic principle seems
to be that each major interest group has a noble to "represent" it and
act as Imperial ambassador to that world or group.   Nobles listen to
the views of their "constituents" and pass them up the chain to their
feudal superiors, and ultimately to the Emperor.  At the same time,
they pass down Imperial policy and commands.

The actual position of the noble on their world can vary widely.  They
may be actively involved in the government, or even be the ruler of
the planet;  or they may fall more into the role of advisor/ambassador
to the local rulers.  For that matter, they might be absentees who
never visit their nominal fief, or the world government might want to
have as little to do withthem as possible.  Hoever, ignoring your
local nobles entirely is never a good idea, because they do have a
direct link to their feudal overlords who can order the Imperial Navy
and Marines into action, or call for a blockade and trade embargo of
your world.

>Which real-world example is the closest match: Rome, Persia,
>China, Great Britain, the USA with much more local autonomy?=20

Um... maybe the Princely States of India, with the Imperial nobles in
the role of the British Residents?

>Are the
>nobility all Syleans, or are they drawn from the various local worlds?

1,100 years ago they would have been Sylean, but the early emperors
had a deliberate policy of handing out noble titles to local
dignatories and power-mongers, in order to win their loyalty and
co-opt them into the Imperial project.  Nowadays they can be any race
or species.  (However, IMTU humans of Solomani/Terran descent are
still well over-represented in the nobility compared to their share of
the Imperium's population).

>On a similar note, is there an Imperial Army, or are the Imperial =
Marines
>the only Imperial ground forces, with colonial units used whenever
>large-scale ground campaigns occur?

There is an Imperial Army in name (well, technically its _name_ is the
Unified Armies of the Imperium), but its separate parts are answerable
solely to the local subsector dukes.  The Marines, otoh, are directly
under the command of the Emepror and the central Imperial authorities.
Also, Marine units can be deployed into battle anywhere at a moment's
notice, whereas moving an Army unit is a logistical nightmare.

Individual planets also raise their own armies, which is what I take
it you mean by "colonial" forces.  An Imperial subsector army will
usually be outnumbered by the combined colonial armies in its area of
responsibility, but will normally have better training and equipment.

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 12:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Tue May 28 11:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
References: <B9184E14.5CCAB%listmom@travellercentral.com> <001101c205ff$00154af0$1c577b83@gideon> <20020528144823.A12421@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <003801c20679$20da1d90$1c577b83@gideon>

<quote>

> You do have grav plates, so all is OK.  The ship's computer has an
> accelerometer, and instructs the grav plates to create an exactly
> opposite grav field.  Well, technically speaking not exactly opposite,
> but a field vector that when combined with the accleration gives a net
> 1 gee field toward the deck.

> - Tim

</quote>

This was what I had at first thought of but then it was explained to me that
on a small scale (such as a starship) that if you had two competing forces
you would not experience the NET effect but the effect of both
simultaneously i.e if I was accelerating at 3G and my grav plates were
pulling on me to attempt compensation that I would in actuality feel pulled
in two directions quite uncomfortably.  If this is not the case then how
exactly does one avoid the "being pulled in two different directions at
once" syndrome?  Thanks for the response.

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 12:59:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Tue May 28 11:59:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
References: <200205280525.WAA32009@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c20679$704e3be0$1c577b83@gideon>

<quote>

> If you want to avoid grav pong, assume the nature of M-drives is to
accelerate whole objects, resulting in no felt acceleration.

</quote>

Could you explain this in further detail?  How exactly does a machine affect
"whole objects"?

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 13:02:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue May 28 12:02:15 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Mega Corp Stock values
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528021852.009f33d0@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <20020528185911.ACD00279C6@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/28/02 at 02:23 AM,  "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org> said:

>On Mon, 27 May 2002 15:37:28 -0700, "Glenn M. Goffin" 
><gmgoffin@earthlink.net> wrote:

>>New York was called New Amsterdam before the British captured it.

>Why they changed it, I can't say
>(People just liked it better that way)

When the English captured New Amsterdam, it was renamed for the Duke
of York and Albany, the English king's brother. In the treaty ending
this particular war between the English and the Dutch, the English got
New Holland (and New Amsterdam) in the Americas, and the Dutch got to
keep some territories they had captured in Africa and South America.
The Duke of York had an interest in the African territories lost, so
was compensated by his brother by being given an additional interest
in the North American colonies...and having his name attached to New
York.  

In the next English/Dutch war, the Dutch retook New York and renamed
it New Orange, honoring William of Orange (later to become King
William of England). When that war ended the next year, New Orange
went back to the English and became New York again.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 14:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue May 28 13:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Darrian Marshmellows
Message-ID: <3CF3E23B.5986BBB1@mail.cswnet.com>

"Darrian Marshmellows"

I think we have a new cargo...

Darrian Marshmellows [food stuff] ?Cr4100 per 1dt.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 14:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue May 28 13:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Darrian Marshmallows
In-Reply-To: <3CF3E23B.5986BBB1@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3CF3E23B.5986BBB1@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <m31ybw9gde.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
>
> "Darrian Marshmellows"
> 
> I think we have a new cargo...
> 
> Darrian Marshmellows [food stuff] ?Cr4100 per 1dt.

Marshmallows.  A kind of mallow which grows in marshes.  There's no
such thing is a marshmellow...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos harjav i merelotz!  Orhniale harutjun Christosi!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 14:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Tue May 28 13:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Darrian Marshmallows
In-Reply-To: <m31ybw9gde.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <000001c20685$fd819460$2f7de40c@loki>

> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>> Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> writes:
>> I think we have a new cargo...
>> Darrian Marshmellows [food stuff] ?Cr4100 per 1dt.
> Marshmallows.  A kind of mallow which grows in marshes.  There's no
> such thing is a marshmellow...

There is now thanks to the venerable TML! Could it be a mellow flavored
mallow grown in marshes?

-peace-
The views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you
expect?
<n2sami@attbi.com>
<http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/> 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 14:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue May 28 13:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:   Imperial Nobility
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEPLCDAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>
>Although I have read the various essays in CT, MT and the Milieu 0 campaign
>on the Imperial nobility, I still fail to comprehend how the system works.
>How does the system articulate with the self-governing worlds? Are the
>noble titles mostly symbolic, with some working in the Imperial bureaucracy
>and military? Which real-world example is the closest match: Rome, Persia,
>China, Great Britain, the USA with much more local autonomy? Are the
>nobility all Syleans, or are they drawn from the various local worlds?

How did the system work _when_?  It depends on the time as to which you are
inquiring. There are at least the following different paradigms:

Rule of Man:  The Vilani nobility continued to exist, but real power was in
the hands of a new interstellar ruling class, consisting of Terran naval
officers.  In my view, these Terran naval officers turned themselves into a
new nobility over time.

Long Night:  Much as in Europe after the collapse of the Roman empire,
custom became law, and the new Terran nobility became legitimized.  During
this time, the nobles had substantial direct power over their dominions.

Early Third Imperium:  This period -- from prior to the establishment of the
Third Imperium to the end of the Pacification Wars -- is characterized by
tension between the strong central government and various entities that had
been independent during the Long Night.  Those entities -- worlds,
interstellar polities, and noble families -- wanted both the preservation of
their independence and the military and economic security offered by
membership in the new Imperium.  The Third Imperium used a carrot and stick
approach during its long expansion, legitimizing the patents of nobles who
joined up, and marginalizing those who did not.

The compromises of the Pacification Wars period -- and, to some extent,
those of the Civil War and Arbellatran eras -- led to the crazy-quilt
situation we see by the late 1000s.  Nobles may have derived from a wide
variety of sources, but all have in common a drive to serve the best
interests of the Emperor, the Imperium, and the nobles to whom they owe
fealty.  Star systems in central regions of the Imperium tend to be
controlled directly by Imperial nobles, while closer to the border, systems
tend to have their own local governments, which may be ruled by commoners or
local nobles.  Both situations have essentially complete local autonomy.
Neither an Imperial noble ruling an entire star system as a personal fief
nor a world with a purely local government has to obey any Imperial laws
other than the most basic (pay your taxes, don't traffic in slaves, don't
commit espionage, treason, and the like, and that's about it).

Suppose a world has a local government and is also within the area of
responsibility (but not within the fief) of a noble.  For example, the Duke
of Regina is responsible for Regina and Jewell subsectors, but only rules
Yori directly as a fief.  The Duke's job with respect to the worlds other
than his fief is to protect them, and to enforce Imperial law (taxes,
slavery, etc.).  Protection normally takes the form of assisting local
military and law enforcement in various ways, and in making sure that
sufficient Imperial military assets are deployed to protect the member
states from whatever threats they face.

>On a similar note, is there an Imperial Army, or are the Imperial Marines
>the only Imperial ground forces, with colonial units used whenever
>large-scale ground campaigns occur?

I'll let Doug Berry (author of GT: Ground Forces) handle this one in detail
(but then he may just refer you to the book).

>(Yes I know that I can order on-line, its just that I am somewhat of a
Luddite in that regard).

As my hapkido instructor commented to me when I was having difficulty doing
high flips and falls, "your mind is your only obstacle."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 15:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue May 28 14:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
In-Reply-To: <003801c20679$20da1d90$1c577b83@gideon>
References: <B9184E14.5CCAB%listmom@travellercentral.com> <001101c205ff$00154af0$1c577b83@gideon> <20020528144823.A12421@freeman.little-possums.net> <003801c20679$20da1d90$1c577b83@gideon>
Message-ID: <20020529075454.A14214@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Colosetti wrote:
> If this is not the case then how exactly does one avoid the "being
> pulled in two different directions at once" syndrome?

It is not the case.  There is nothing to avoid.  Whoever 'explained'
it to you was wrong.

In (much) more detail:

Firstly, maneuver drives do not accelerate ship's contents directly.
What they do is accelerate themselves.  If they are attached securely
to the ship, they push it along due to forces in the structural
bracing.  In the absence of artificial gravity, the Captain's coffee
cup (not securely attached to anything) is not accelerated at all
until it meets the bulkhead which is accelerating toward it.  At the
time of meeting, the bulkhead applies a very *large* (but brief)
acceleration.  After a short but complicated dance of coffee cup
pieces and blobs of liquid, the bulkhead then applies a steadier but
weaker acceleration on the bits now resting against it.  (The same
applies to a coffee cup dropped on Earth, except substitute 'floor'
for 'bulkhead')

Secondly, we know that artificial gravity fields generated by grav
plates are essentially uniform within their area of effect, since it
requires no special skill to walk around in a ship so equipped.
Unlike maneuver drives, these *do* directly apply accelerations to
objects in their area of effect.  Yes, this is magic.  Add it to the
list of other magic things in Traveller.  They presumably also apply
equal and opposite forces to the ship's structure.

Suppose we want inertial compensation and not bother with artificial
gravity (for simplicity).  When not thrusting, there is nothing to
compensate, and so we don't switch on the grav plates.

Now, suppose the pilot switches on 3 gee thrust forward.  The same
circuit that enables the maneuver drives can also enable the grav
plates.  Now, the ship's structure is subjected to forces by the
maneuver drive that move it forward at 3 gee.  The Captain's coffee
cup (or the Captain, for that matter) is not affected by the maneuver
drive -- it is not attached securely to the ship's structure, and so
the maneuver drive exerts no forces and therefore no acceleration.

However, the grav plates *do* exert a uniform acceleration.  Not
coincidentally, it happens to be 3 gee forward just like the structure
of the ship.  So unlike the first example, the bulkhead does not
accelerate to meet it -- they are both accelerating at the same rate
and maintain the same relative velocity.

Also, the coffee cup experiences no internal stresses.  The grav
plates accelerate the front part of the cup at exactly the same rate
as the back of the cup, and the handle at the same rate as the body.
So the coffee cup (and the Captain) are not "pulled in different
directions at once".


There is just one case where you might get a "pulled in different
directions at once" effect: if you are partially inside and partially
outside the zone of effect of the grav plates, such as if you were
crawling around in the access spaces trying to fix something (like a
grav plate!), or if someone forgot to smoothly reduce the artificial
gravity before you left an airlock.  Yes, that could be briefly
unpleasant.  However, neither case applies to general passengers or
crewmembers in the ship.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 16:10:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue May 28 15:10:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
In-Reply-To: <003e01c20679$704e3be0$1c577b83@gideon>
References: <200205280525.WAA32009@molly.iii.com> <003e01c20679$704e3be0$1c577b83@gideon>
Message-ID: <20020529080944.B14214@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Colosetti wrote:
> Could you explain this in further detail?  How exactly does a
> machine affect "whole objects"?

Mystical magical ultra-high-tech "sufficiently advanced" technology.

At our paltry TL7 understanding of science, the closest analogy might
be magnetic fields.  If you stick someone in a big NMR machine, all
their nuclei are affected by the magnetic field at once.  This isn't
artifical gravity, but it is a machine that affects "whole objects".

Without resorting to analogy, you just manipulate space-time so that
within a given region, geodesics are parallel but curved relative to
outside space (much like they are near a sufficiently large object
such as a planet).  Objects within the field have all their atoms
follow parallel geodesics, and hence there is no internal stress on
the object within the field.  At least, none until it meets another
object such as the deck.

Now, reactionless thruster plates might work on the same principle as
grav plates.  They might generate an artificial gravity field within
which the ship "falls".  Such a drive would mean that objects within
the field are not at all affected by maneuvering, since they are
always in free fall.  Since free-fall may be disconcerting to most
people, most ships have smaller grav plates inside that provide 1 gee
of gravity toward the deck.  This provides the internal stresses that
people are used to, and means that coffee cups stay on the table.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 16:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue May 28 15:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Darrian Marshmallows
In-Reply-To: <m31ybw9gde.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3CF3E23B.5986BBB1@mail.cswnet.com> <m31ybw9gde.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020529081641.C14214@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> Marshmallows.  A kind of mallow which grows in marshes.  There's no
> such thing is a marshmellow...

It's obviously a typo for marchmelon, a type of cantaloupe that is
best gathered and eaten near the vernal equinox.  It doesn't fare so
well on planets with different year lengths, and so is only common
around the Solomani Rim.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 16:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Baron Greystone)
Date: Tue May 28 15:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ten Points for Style
Message-ID: <OE5530Pt1GFB36BIY6E00002af5@hotmail.com>

Hi,
Sorry if this is an old subject, but three of my favorite books are Walter
Jon Williams' Ten Points for Style trilogy. They seem a perfect fit for a
Traveller campaign. Heck, maybe they were inspired by a Traveller campaign
for all I know. Have any list members used the books for inspiration? Maybe
posted gaming treatments..? :)
Thx,
Greystone

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 17:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (King Dub)
Date: Tue May 28 16:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Ten Points for Style
In-Reply-To: <OE5530Pt1GFB36BIY6E00002af5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <D65D3716-728F-11D6-A2C0-00050251E90C@mac.com>

I happen to be a fan of Walter Jon Williams (especially Aristoi) but I 
must admit, I've never heard of Ten Points for Style.  I wasn't able to 
find it on ebay or Amazon, either.  Would you care to tell me what the 
novel(s) are about?

Thanks in advance!

-King Dub

On Tuesday, May 28, 2002, at 03:31 PM, Baron Greystone wrote:

> Hi,
> Sorry if this is an old subject, but three of my favorite books are 
> Walter
> Jon Williams' Ten Points for Style trilogy. They seem a perfect fit 
> for a
> Traveller campaign. Heck, maybe they were inspired by a Traveller 
> campaign
> for all I know. Have any list members used the books for inspiration? 
> Maybe
> posted gaming treatments..? :)
> Thx,
> Greystone
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 18:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue May 28 17:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Using Torg/Masterbook rules for Traveller
Message-ID: <20020529012537.3afe35d6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Hi

I've been thinking a lot about the various rules I want to change for my
upcoming (two years in the making, go me...) Traveller campaign. I was
intending to use a modified T4 rules set with some changes (Warhammer
Fantasy-like career paths, modified task resolution, ACQ combat rules),
but I got another idea reading the rules for another RPG.

Has anyone tried using the Torg rules for games of Traveller? Since it
uses logarithmic progression, has rules for unskilled task resolution, a
similiar range of stats/skills, and so on, converting should be relatively
easy.

Also, the game might appeal to other Traveller fans, which is why I ask
you if anyone has tried something like this...  ;-)

I think that the entire possibility thing doesn't have a place in
Traveller (unless you want a heroic campaign), but the rest of the rules
could work very well. For example, since the Torg damage is counted on the
logarithmic scale, simply inserting FF&S energy outputs/damage values into
that scale should produce useable results as well.

Comments?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 18:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May 28 17:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Picky Picky
Message-ID: <3e.1ed6d60f.2a257a0c@aol.com>

><<SNIP>>
>>I suspect that the imprecise terminology is the result of a conflict of
>>expectations between the media (who expect robot air-superiority craft any
>>day now) and the military (who do handstands to avoid suggesting that we're
>>going to be putting fighter jocks out of work any time soon).
><<UNSNIP>>
>Personally, I lean towards the "media (who who have to spend so much time 
>watching some snot-nosed little oik doesn't steal their slot that they don't 

>have time to really learn a subject)" theory - it's either that, or the 
>"media (who wouldn't know how to research a story and have to rely on some 
>snot-nosed little oik to tell them what is what)"...

I've been told that specializing in military coverage is the lowest rung on 
the journalistic ladder (unless there's a war on -- then it becomes hot). 
This from several people whoi should know, during the Gulf War Factbook days.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 18:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May 28 17:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Face Recognition
Message-ID: <a4.268c870e.2a257afc@aol.com>

>Also, advanced facial recognition
>software would probably also be able to recognize a face in pain,
>unconscious, or whatever, making such schemes even less plausible.

Hopefully it will distinguish between "a gun in the back" and "pinched nerve 
in the back." I'd hate to be denied admission to the secret lab in the 
volcano crater because my back is acting up . . .   :  )

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 18:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue May 28 17:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Milieu 0
In-Reply-To: <3CF3AA90.3060207@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <030701c20607$d992a7c0$f94a1c43@customer>
 <3CF3AA90.3060207@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020529011826.0f011f67.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Why, that would be the generally good Imperium Games supplement Milieu 
> 0, actually. That was one of the better supplements they produced, imo.

Yes, which in some people's opinions isn't saying much...  *grin*

I liked some of the supplements though (got them all except the
screen+adventure). M:0, FF&S2, and PE/IS are my favorites, although some
of them have a slight case of errata dependency.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 18:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue May 28 17:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Face Recognition
In-Reply-To: <a4.268c870e.2a257afc@aol.com>
References: <a4.268c870e.2a257afc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020529024551.48d63fb6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> Hopefully it will distinguish between "a gun in the back" and "pinched
nerve 
> in the back." I'd hate to be denied admission to the secret lab in the 
> volcano crater because my back is acting up . . .   :  )

... or because my face is turning blue from lack of breathable air.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 19:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue May 28 18:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Picky, picky...
References: <20020528082805.A6608279FB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001701c206ac$e8ff9240$f5b18b90@computer>

> From: "Kelly St.Clair"
> Pilots are already cranky about being assigned to Predator duty, which
they
> compare more to playing a video game (no kinesthetic cues, etc) than real
> combat.  You think they're happy about the prospect of being replaced by
> robots, however performance-superior the latter may someday be?

Heh.  The next lot of horse cavalry.  : )

Maybe they should check out the casualty rates for aircrew in WWII.

Hmm.  Do you really need an "officer and gentleman" to supervise a robot, or
would "just some corporal" be adequate for the task?  I'm assuming that
there would always need to be some human supervision, even past the video
game stage.  In the video game phase "some kid off the streets" might
actually be the best choice!

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 19:04:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue May 28 18:04:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Colony logistics
References: <20020528190727.031F0279D7@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c206ac$ec5f3800$f5b18b90@computer>

> From: Gonzalez
> You could have a socialist/communist dictatorship and
> call it the Peoples Alliance.

That's a very interesting suggestion.  It would change the setting rather
drastically, but that isn't a big deal at this point.  I'll have to think
about it for a while.

My universe design work tends to be rather sporadic, and I keep scrapping it
and starting over again.  In fact, let's face it, universe design is one of
the forms of solo Traveller I play!  On the other hand, I rarely design
starships...

Sooner or later, I really, really, really do intend to start an actual
campaign up again, sometime.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 19:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue May 28 18:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] face recognition
In-Reply-To: <20020528215136.A13057@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528012141.00bb7e70@mail.comcast.net>
 <HFEEICDPFDOCDIAMMBOHIENNDOAA.jbunnell@yahoo.com>
 <20020528132054.0f804d1d.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020528215136.A13057@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020529011326.6757f6fa.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Yep, computers are *much* better than humans at extracting data from
> uniform noise sources.  On the other hand, humans are much better at
> ignoring higher-level distortions such as rotation, highly non-uniform
> noise types, and lighting variations.

Yes, we've discussed this in class as well  :-)

ObTrav: So that's what all those technicians on starships are doing...

Seriously, given the 3Imp's dislike of artificial intelligence, it would
only be logical to have laws forcing all machine actions to be approved by
a human. This would explain a lot of thing. It would also mean that in
emergencies, a ship could be handled by a lot less crew (if jury-rigged to
automatically approve various actions).

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 19:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue May 28 18:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Picky, picky...
In-Reply-To: <001701c206ac$e8ff9240$f5b18b90@computer>
References: <20020528082805.A6608279FB@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <001701c206ac$e8ff9240$f5b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <m3it57g2zr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:
> 
> Hmm.  Do you really need an "officer and gentleman" to supervise a
> robot, or would "just some corporal" be adequate for the task?

Well, part of the reason that modern pilots are officers is that they
supervise their ground crew--or so quoth my brother, newly
commissioned this past Friday, and headed to Pensacola to become a
pilot.  So perhaps the vehicle would still be piloted by an officer,
who supervises the ratings who outfit the thing.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Cristo Resucita!  En Verdad Resucita!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 19:59:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue May 28 18:59:12 2002
Subject: [TML] BayCon report
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020528185548.009ef1d0@mindspring.com>

My experience at BayCon is no up on my LiveJournal.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

It is the entry titled "BayCon" oddly enough.  Click on the "No shit, there 
I was" link for the whole version.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 20:38:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Tue May 28 19:38:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Picky Picky
In-Reply-To: <3e.1ed6d60f.2a257a0c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEFBEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

><<SNIP>>
>>>I suspect that the imprecise terminology is the result of a conflict of
>>>expectations between the media (who expect robot air-superiority craft
any
>>>day now) and the military (who do handstands to avoid suggesting that
we're
>>>going to be putting fighter jocks out of work any time soon).
>><<UNSNIP>>
>>Personally, I lean towards the "media (who who have to spend so much time
>>watching some snot-nosed little oik doesn't steal their slot that they
don't
>
>>have time to really learn a subject)" theory - it's either that, or the
>>"media (who wouldn't know how to research a story and have to rely on some
>>snot-nosed little oik to tell them what is what)"...
>
>I've been told that specializing in military coverage is the lowest rung on
>the journalistic ladder (unless there's a war on -- then it becomes hot).
>This from several people whoi should know, during the Gulf War Factbook
days.

I suspect that this was a temporary situation that was a result of the Viet
Nam war and that it may be changing now. Take a look at all of the major
network anchors from 1950 thru the 1960's, almost all were war
correspondants ( Cronkite, Brinkley, Rather, etc.) The world being what it
is now I expect that military coverage has gone up a few rungs.

I also suspect that the "fighter" is a weapon that will not be around much
longer. We are rapidly getting to the "if it flies it dies" point of
technology. It is already that way for lower tech aircraft (pretty much what
most countries have.) Almost all new high tech combat aircraft now being
built (by the U.S. anyway) seem to me to be ground support aircraft. I will
admit this is not my area (I'm an old Navy man, but I try to keep up,) but
look at what the U.S. is buying.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 20:44:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue May 28 19:44:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Using Torg/Masterbook rules for Traveller
Message-ID: <20020528.223843.-214627.0.Knightsky@juno.com>


On Wed, 29 May 2002 01:25:37 +0200 Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
writes:
 
> Has anyone tried using the Torg rules for games of Traveller? Since it
> uses logarithmic progression, has rules for unskilled task resolution,
a
> similiar range of stats/skills, and so on, converting should be
relatively
> easy.

The obvious suggestion is to try to find a copy of the Shatterzone rules,
since they are essentially the Torg/Masterbook rules with a SF setting. 
It's a 2d10 dice roll instead of 1d20 for task resolution, and there are
'life points' instead of 'possibilities', but it's essentially the same
basic rules, it still uses the drama deck, and it has campaign chrome for
starships, psionics, cybernetics, etc.

                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"





________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 20:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue May 28 19:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Picky Picky
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEFBEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <B9199049.5CE82%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/28/02 7:32 PM, Terry Carlino at carlino@cox.net wrote:
> 
> I also suspect that the "fighter" is a weapon that will not be around much
> longer. We are rapidly getting to the "if it flies it dies" point of
> technology. It is already that way for lower tech aircraft (pretty much what
> most countries have.) Almost all new high tech combat aircraft now being
> built (by the U.S. anyway) seem to me to be ground support aircraft. I will
> admit this is not my area (I'm an old Navy man, but I try to keep up,) but
> look at what the U.S. is buying.

I suspect the reason for more multi-role or ground attack capable aircraft
is because there is really no credible opposing airforce, rather than the
effectiveness of AA (which is still suspect, and not as effective as many
believe.  Note Iraq, which had a very credible ground based A).

And I'd take issue that aircraft being built or in the development phase are
purpose built ground attack craft.  The US has always favored multirole
aircraft, and aircraft like the YF-22 are air superiority aircraft, hence
the 'F' designation.

The services thoughtfully name their aircraft based on their role.  'F' for
fighters, 'A' for attack.  Some fighters have been pressed into the attack
role (e.g. the F-16, which was designed as a dedicated fighter, but it can
drop bombs.)  In fact, it seems to me, looking over the current US
inventory, that there is a distinct lack of dedicated ground attach
aircraft.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 22:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue May 28 21:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Picky Picky
In-Reply-To: <20020529025506.CCBB7279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528205300.009f4380@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 28 May 2002 19:51:38 -0700, Tod Glenn 
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

>The services thoughtfully name their aircraft based on their role.  'F' for
>fighters, 'A' for attack.  Some fighters have been pressed into the attack
>role (e.g. the F-16, which was designed as a dedicated fighter, but it can
>drop bombs.)  In fact, it seems to me, looking over the current US
>inventory, that there is a distinct lack of dedicated ground attach
>aircraft.

That would be because our last great dedicated ground-attack craft, the 
A-10 Warthog, got taken off the books basically because it wasn't sexy 
enough.  (Effective yes, sexy no.)  The pampered "knights of the air" don't 
want to get down in the mud with the peasants; they'd much rather be 
zooming along at high altitudes and supersonic speeds, jousting with their 
opposite numbers.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 23:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue May 28 22:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
In-Reply-To: <20020529075454.A14214@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEHPEIAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

This works best on vessels without inertial compensation, or with limited
compensation compared to their maneuver drives. Eg a TL10 destroyer with 1G
compensation and a 4G drive.

As the ship is not fully compensated part of its structure must be to absorb
the stresses of changes in acceleration. These structural components would
presumably distort, flex, compress, expand etc. as the various stresses
change.

Picture an old ship, its manuever drive recently overhauled giving it 4G
(perhaps that TL10 destroyer) the hull however and its stress support
structures is getting on a bit. Some sudden maneuvering as in combat, or
fuel skimming etc. and one of these members gives way. The results would be
very interesting don't you think?

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue May 28 23:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Tue May 28 22:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Nobility
Message-ID: <OFEDEF76DC.109827C7-ON42256BC8.001D42EB@ko.com>

Greetings all

Thank you for your interesting responses to my query about nobility in the
Imperium. Much food for thought.

Regards

Clint Rynners




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 02:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 29 01:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
In-Reply-To: <001101c205ff$00154af0$1c577b83@gideon>
Message-ID: <20529.003048.5f8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Ok, I need an explainable handwave for Inertial Compensation.  Having
> re-read the recent discussion on inertial suppression and the agreement that
> such suppression is impossible I desire an explanation that would not defy
> every known law of physics.  As with all good Sci-Fi my one allowable
> "law-breaker" (besides FTL <grin>) in MTU is the existence of Gravitics
> (specifically solid state Grav Plates).  For the life of me I cannot come up
> with a rational reason why humans are not shoved up along the bulkheads as
> soon as the M-Drive initiates a 6G maneuver.  Most Ships are not designed
> with perp decks and this seems to make things worse.  If I cannot come up
> with a rationale soon my players are going to rebel and I will end up
> shifting both my campaigns to the Mote in God's Eye model I use for my
> secondary game.  Thanks for any assistance you all can provide me on this.

It's easy. You just generate a "gravity" field with the acceleration
being equal to that of the drive, and in the opposite direction. 

For the ships with decks perpendicular to the acceleration, you get the
internal gravity by using 1 g less of neutralizing field. 

For the ships with decks parallel to the acceleration, you use a second
field at right angles to generate the internal gravity.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 03:00:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 29 02:00:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
In-Reply-To: <003e01c20679$704e3be0$1c577b83@gideon>
Message-ID: <20529.003409.6T7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> <quote>
>
>> If you want to avoid grav pong, assume the nature of M-drives is to
> accelerate whole objects, resulting in no felt acceleration.
>
> </quote>
>
> Could you explain this in further detail?  How exactly does a machine affect
> "whole objects"?

Same way real gravity does.

Except for tidal effects (due to *differences* in acceleration due to
gravity) you don't feel the acceleration due to gravity. You only feel
it when something is *preventing* you from responding to the gravity field.

That's because the gravitational field affects every particle of your
body *individually*. 

The force you feel when standing on the ground is the ground
*preventing* you from falling to the center of the Earth.

Astronauts in the Space Shuttle are subject to a gravity field that's
barely weaker than what you are on the ground. But they are "falling
freely" in the field. You aren't.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 03:02:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 29 02:02:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
In-Reply-To: <20020528144823.A12421@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20529.003915.6e3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Anthony Colosetti wrote:
>> For the life of me I cannot come up with a rational reason why
>> humans are not shoved up along the bulkheads as soon as the M-Drive
>> initiates a 6G maneuver.
>
> You do have grav plates, so all is OK.  The ship's computer has an
> accelerometer, and instructs the grav plates to create an exactly
> opposite grav field.

Won't work. The accelerometer won't register *because* you are using
the grav plates to neutralize the apparent acceleration. 

On the other hand, you don't *need* an accelerometer because the ship
knows how much thrust it is generating, and in which direction.

In the "real" world, there'd be an accelerometer as a backup to
compensate for times when the ship is damaged or the cargo loading
isn't right. But it'd be registering *fractions* of a g deviations from
the 1 g (or whatever) the internal gravity is set for.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 03:05:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 29 02:05:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
In-Reply-To: <003801c20679$20da1d90$1c577b83@gideon>
Message-ID: <20529.004250.4Y0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
> <quote>
>
>> You do have grav plates, so all is OK.  The ship's computer has an
>> accelerometer, and instructs the grav plates to create an exactly
>> opposite grav field.  Well, technically speaking not exactly opposite,
>> but a field vector that when combined with the accleration gives a net
>> 1 gee field toward the deck.
>
>> - Tim
>
> </quote>
>
> This was what I had at first thought of but then it was explained to me that
> on a small scale (such as a starship) that if you had two competing forces
> you would not experience the NET effect but the effect of both
> simultaneously i.e if I was accelerating at 3G and my grav plates were
> pulling on me to attempt compensation that I would in actuality feel pulled
> in two directions quite uncomfortably.  If this is not the case then how
> exactly does one avoid the "being pulled in two different directions at
> once" syndrome?  Thanks for the response.

You *are* being pulled in different directions at once. 

But then, you are right now as well. The earth is pulling you in one
direction, the sun in another and the moon in a third.

But they are pulling on individual *particles*. And what matters is the
*vector sum* of the forces. 

As an example, on various amusement park rides, you've got gravity
pulling you down, acceleration (actually, your inertia) pushing you
"back", and "centrifugal force" (inertia again) pulling you to the
outside of turns. 

But what you feel is *not* seperate forces. You feel the *sum* of the
forces. So "down" feels like it is a direction that is towards the
outside of the curve, and somewhat backwards. 

It's *not* like tying two different ropes to you. 

Heck, just consider what happens to "down" as a car speeds up or makes
a turn at any sort of speed. Same thing. You feel the *sum* of the
forces, not the individual forces. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 03:07:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 29 02:07:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Hold Those Marshmallows On High (long)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEEMEAAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20529.005538.5l8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>> Question: Was the stellar event that destroyed Darrian civilization a
> nova
>>> or just a minor stellar shift?
>>
>>It was artifically induced, so it doesn't count.
>>
>>And it was a sort of super flare.
>>
> I don't know about the super-flare part, but the event was not artificially
> induced. It was a natural disaster that the Darrians passed off as
> artificially induced, as propaganda to frighten their enemies. It has only
> been recently that they have really perfected the weapon, giving truth to
> the lie.

No, The old Darrians Alien Module makes it quite clear that it *was*
artificially induced. It's just that what triggered it wasn't what the
Darrians had thought it was. 

Or rather, it was what they thought, but *in combination* with
something else, not merely alone. 

Sort of like thinking that ammonium nitrate by itself will make a big
boom. It will, if you get lucky or treat it *just* wrong. But it goes
off much better if mixed with fuel oil. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 03:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Wed May 29 02:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Picky, picky...
In-Reply-To: <001701c206ac$e8ff9240$f5b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAAEJHHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
Alan Bradley wrote :
> Hmm.  Do you really need an "officer and gentleman" to 
> supervise a robot, or would "just some corporal" be 
> adequate for the task?  I'm assuming that
> there would always need to be some human supervision, 
> even past the video game stage.  In the video game 
> phase "some kid off the streets" might actually be 
> the best choice!

No to both. 

The reason they want officers to pilot planes is that 
they trust officers more, because they are more heavily 
brainwashed than other ranks ( Other than in the U.S. 
Marine Corps, where the other ranks are as brainwashed
as the officers. <grin>) 

A "kid off the street" couldn't be trusted to do what 
they were told or get a security clearance. 

Frankie





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 03:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed May 29 02:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
In-Reply-To: <20529.003915.6e3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020528144823.A12421@freeman.little-possums.net> <20529.003915.6e3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020529194618.A15380@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Won't work. The accelerometer won't register *because* you are using
> the grav plates to neutralize the apparent acceleration. 

The accelerometer would be outside the grav plates' region of effect.
You want this anyway for inertial navigation among plenty of other
purposes.  Yes, you might also have special-purpose accelerometers in
the region of effect with a feedback to keep the internal field at 1
gee.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 05:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed May 29 04:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Picky Picky
Message-ID: <F245W8BYXifWoqFXfyY0000f375@hotmail.com>

>"Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
>That would be because our last great dedicated ground-attack craft, the 
>A-10 Warthog, got taken off the books basically because it wasn't sexy 
>enough.  (Effective yes, sexy no.)

The USAF disagrees. From their factsheet (June 2000):
>Inventory: Active force, A-10, 143 and OA-10, 70;

The USAF wants to use it until around 2028-2030 IIRC.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 07:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May 29 06:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Picky Picky
Message-ID: <62.204e96eb.2a262c9e@aol.com>

>>I've been told that specializing in military coverage is the lowest rung on
>>the journalistic ladder (unless there's a war on -- then it becomes hot).
>>This from several people whoi should know, during the Gulf War Factbook
>days.
>
>I suspect that this was a temporary situation that was a result of the Viet
>Nam war and that it may be changing now. Take a look at all of the major
>network anchors from 1950 thru the 1960's, almost all were war
>correspondants ( Cronkite, Brinkley, Rather, etc.) 

That was during a war . . . and they merely covered the war, they didn't 
specialize in the military beat. Being a "military reporter" is still pretty 
low on the scale, certainly lower than being a "science reporter" or a 
"medical reporter." Better to be "consumer reporter" or "economics reporter" 
or "crime reporter." The stigma is not covering a war while it is happening, 
it is in be "expert" in things military. 

> The world being what it
>is now I expect that military coverage has gone up a few rungs.

Right now, yes. When things cool down, the anchors will move on to something 
else, and the subject will be left to the few who think it is important to 
know the difference between an APC and an MICV.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May 29 06:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Fighters
Message-ID: <177.8ff9113.2a262dfb@aol.com>

--part1_177.8ff9113.2a262dfb_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Terry C opines:

> >I also suspect that the "fighter" is a weapon that will not be around much
> >longer. We are rapidly getting to the "if it flies it dies" point of
> >technology. 

That was certainly Soviet air defense doctrine in the 1980s and 1990s -- 
"Nothing can survive in our ADA zone, not even our own aircraft." The Gulf 
War demonstrated that this doctrine was flawed (admittedly it was the Iraqis, 
not the Soviets carrying it out but the Iraqis were doing it right out of the 
Soviet book), and Russian AD doctrine is* in a state of flux.

LKW

* I admit I'm about 5 years out of date on this subject. They've probably 
reformulated their doctrine by now, but I haven't kept up on it. Not doing 
Twilight: 2000 any more, I don't have to keep up on this kind of thing these 
days.. 

--part1_177.8ff9113.2a262dfb_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Terry C opines:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;I also suspect that the "fighter" is a weapon that will not be around much<BR>
&gt;longer. We are rapidly getting to the "if it flies it dies" point of<BR>
&gt;technology. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
That was certainly Soviet air defense doctrine in the 1980s and 1990s -- "Nothing can survive in our ADA zone, not even our own aircraft." The Gulf War demonstrated that this doctrine was flawed (admittedly it was the Iraqis, not the Soviets carrying it out but the Iraqis were doing it right out of the Soviet book), and Russian AD doctrine is* in a state of flux.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
* I admit I'm about 5 years out of date on this subject. They've probably reformulated their doctrine by now, but I haven't kept up on it. Not doing Twilight: 2000 any more, I don't have to keep up on this kind of thing these days.. <BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_177.8ff9113.2a262dfb_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 08:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed May 29 07:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: for foils (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205290700050.19411-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

Of all the spam caught by the mailing list software, this one caught my
attention.  If only they offered Imperial Marine cutlass replicas...
(see attached message)

Made me wonder if lists of registered merchantmen are available in the
Imperium (sold by Imperial bureaus/officials) to 'businessmen' around the
Imperium - and if the merchantmen are then beseiged with offers:

   "We are mfg. & exporters of replica Imperial Marine cutlasses
    and groat care products. We give offered to you rate of cutlasses
    and groat products which rate is describe below. If you can to
    arrive in Mithil system in days 60 standard, we can to offer a
    cargo to bring profits to you anywhere."

perhaps accompanied by nice pictures/films of the cargo, more details of
the system (advertising how nice the place is, the great quality of
workmanship of the people there), etc. to entice the players.  Cheaper to
send spam-ish messages to potential ship owners than sending
representatives all over the galaxy.  Great profits may indeed lie in a
cargo from a far-away world that no one else visits, all you have to do is
know about it.  Then again, if they get spam offers all the time, it's
up to the players to weed out the wheat from the chaff.  And some players
or NPCs may just have a feeling about this one.

And for those challenging worlds that have trouble finding regular
merchantmen to visit their system, it might be their best way of
attracting someone to buy their products.  Or sucker them in-system.

Or imagine a spam offer coming up on a ship captain's mail:
   "Help us, <insert-name here>, you're our only hope..."


Rob D.

(listmom2)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 21:39:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: MITHIL PAREKH <infoses1@yahoo.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re; for foils
Resent-Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 06:26:04 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
Resent-To: tml-owner@travellercentral.com



Dear Sir,

We  are mfg. & exporters of   alu. Foils. We give
offered to you rate of alu. foils which rate is
describe as below. If yourself or your comapany is
intrested in our proposal, pl. contact us by mail or
fax..
ALUMINIUMS FOILS
1,   30 cm  x  7.6 m, 12 microns,  with metal blade /
cartoons.
      Rate of each foils :   0.37 $ FOB RATE
      Quty :  1 FCL
2,   30 cm  x  10m, 10 microns, with  metal blade /
cartoons.
      Rate of each foils  :   0.45 $  FOB RATE
     Quty : 1 FCL
3,   30 cm  x 150 m , 17 microns,  with metal blade /
cartoons.
      Rate of each foils  :   8.50 $ FOB RATE  AT
ICD-DASH. VADODARA.
      QUTY : 1 FCL.
4,   45 cm x  150 m, 17 microns,  with metal blade /
caartoons.
      Rate of each foils  :  12.75 $ FOB RATE
      Quty : 1 FCL

Pl. contact by mail or fax,

Hoping to form a pleasant business relationship,

Best Regards,

DIPAL EXPORTERS.
(Mithil Parekh)
DIPAL TRADERS & EXPORTERS.
V.R.Chambers, Raopura, Kothipole, Vadodara-
390001.India.
PH. NO - 0265 - 410443 / 355373.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 09:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed May 29 08:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Picky, picky...
Message-ID: <200205291505.HHQ08133@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Frank Pitt" says
>The reason they want officers to pilot planes is that 
>they trust officers more, because they are more heavily 
>brainwashed than other ranks ( Other than in the U.S. 
>Marine Corps, where the other ranks are as brainwashed
>as the officers. <grin>) 
>
>A "kid off the street" couldn't be trusted to do what 
>they were told or get a security clearance. 

I guess that's why when I was an E4, I and one other person 
had weapons and the authority to use them on the officers in 
the battery control center - without warning, without 
consultation, and with the authority to ignore any pleadings 
those officers might make - if they were issuing "illegal" 
orders in relation to nuclear weapons.  I don't recall seeing 
any officers with weapons in those situations.

________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 09:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed May 29 08:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Recoilless Rifles
Message-ID: <F175on60TMZQu5Snz8k00002443@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Would any kind soul with experience in the care and feeding of 
recoilless rifles be so kind as to contact me off-List?
     I am specifically interested in the nature of that weapon's 
manufacturing tech level.  If the idea of the recoilless rifle is already 
known, could one be built at, say, an American Civil War level of 
technology?  Or a 1900 level?  Or a 1920 level?
     Thanks to all in advance.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S.  I hope all US List members enjoyed their holiday weekend.  I managed 
to combine a business trip and family wedding during mine.  It was fun AND 
hectic.

P.P.S.  To all the Anaheim Angels fans in the List, may I simply say 
"Believe In The Power Of The Rally Monkey!"

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 09:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor J. Raymond)
Date: Wed May 29 08:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please:  Recoilless Rifles
Message-ID: <200205291519.KAA31849@mailhub-2.iastate.edu>

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      Would any kind soul with experience in the care and feeding of 
> recoilless rifles be so kind as to contact me off-List?
>      I am specifically interested in the nature of that weapon's 
> manufacturing tech level.  If the idea of the recoilless rifle is already 
> known, could one be built at, say, an American Civil War level of 
> technology?

Dear Larsen,

Though I know you said off-list, this might be relevant to other Traveller 
referees.

>  Or a 1900 level?  Or a 1920 level?

The Davis Gun, which saw service with the US Navy during World War I (yes, _I_) 
was an early form of recoilless gun.  It used a "countermass" as the opposite 
reaction to the shell being kicked out the business end.  I believe, based on 
viewing photographs of USN flying boats of the era, that the Davis Gun was 
intended for anti-submarine use.

It may be the case that smokeless powder might be the critical difference in an 
effective RCL weapon.  It would be interesting to see if a black or "brown" 
powder weapon might work in an earlier era.

It's also worth noting that the basis for the HEAT round of WWII and later may 
be found in the Munro Effect, named for the American engineer that discovered 
it in the 1880's (IIRC).

So if you want a RCL weapon with a shaped charge warhead, you might be able to 
build one at a Civil War tech level (American, not English).

>      Thanks to all in advance.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 


Victor Jason Raymond
Department of Sociology, Iowa State University
vraymond@iastate.edu








From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed May 29 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
Message-ID: <F137THrdusluCBcKfEx0000122a@hotmail.com>

From: "Victor J. Raymond" <vraymond@iastate.edu>

     "Though I know you said off-list, this might be relevant to other 
Traveller referees."


Mr. Raymond,

     Your thought that this discussion may be relevant to others is, of 
course, correct sir.  Whatever was I thinking when I thought the List may 
not want to talk about guns?  8^)

     "The Davis Gun, which saw service with the US Navy during World War I 
(yes, _I_) was an early form of recoilless gun.  It used a "countermass" as 
the opposite reaction to the shell being kicked out the business end.  I 
believe, based on viewing photographs of USN flying boats of the era, that 
the Davis Gun was intended for anti-submarine use."

     I've found the Davis Gun after a google search.  The idea of a counter 
weight gun is superbly goofy enough for my needs.  Now I need only figure 
out how to design it.
     This request, like the landlocked polar caps request last year, grows 
directly out of my personal tar baby; the Dirty Little War project.  Every 
so often, after either strong drink or blows to the head, I take up that 
misbegotten mess of scribblings, conjectures, and ravings and do a little, 
spotty, shoddy work.
     In order to ram the "We're not in Kansas anymore, Toto" feeling down 
the PCs' collective throats, I decided early on that each side would have a 
wackly wonder weapon or two.  Hopefully these weird and deadly devices would 
keep the PC-mercs on their furry little toes.
     One side has been given a single man, pusher prop, rocket armed, 
autogyro for close ground support.  It's beginning to look as if the other 
side may get a Whippet-style, very light tank armed with recoilless 
rifle(s).  The appearance of these mcguffins should cause boths sides to 
scramble for counter measures; much better AA and AT capabilities in the 
long run and much deeper holes for starters.
     While both weapons will cause fear and loathing among their opponents, 
neither will be "war-winners".  A local Guderian will not be using massed 
Whippets to sickle stroke his opponents, nor will flights of autogyros rule 
the daylight skies.  They will, however, annoy and vex the PC-mercs and, 
hopefully, cause the war to bog down.

     "It would be interesting to see if a black or "brown" powder weapon 
might work in an earlier era."

     My worries exactly.  The combatants in Dirty Little War do have 
smokeless powder for small arms.  Once again querying the List's military 
boffins; are small arm propellents and artillery propellents basically the 
same?  If you've the ability to make one, do you then have the ability to 
make the other?

     "So if you want a RCL weapon with a shaped charge warhead, you might be 
able to build one at a Civil War tech level (American, not English)."

     Definitely American Civil War or later.  The idea of Cromwell and his 
Ironsides tooling around in a homebrewed version of the US Army's Ontos is 
quite disturbing.  The real Cromwell was quite bad enough, thank you.
     Again, thank you for your help sir.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 14:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed May 29 13:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
In-Reply-To: <20020529194618.A15380@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20529.132403.7N1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Won't work. The accelerometer won't register *because* you are using
>> the grav plates to neutralize the apparent acceleration. 
>
> The accelerometer would be outside the grav plates' region of effect.
> You want this anyway for inertial navigation among plenty of other
> purposes.

Inertial navigation of a spacecraft isn't terribly workable. Too many
variables that you can't easily compenate for. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 14:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn wilson)
Date: Wed May 29 13:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #561 - 17 msgs
Message-ID: <F116fKAm0Jnp4Ev1oVV0000e3d4@hotmail.com>

> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>Alan Bradley wrote :

>The reason they want officers to pilot planes is that
>they trust officers more, because they are more heavily
>brainwashed than other ranks ( Other than in the U.S.
>Marine Corps, where the other ranks are as brainwashed
>as the officers. <grin>)
>
>A "kid off the street" couldn't be trusted to do what
>they were told or get a security clearance.


The Army gives 'kids off the street' (who have passed clearance 
investigations) security clearances all the time, secret and top secret.  
Radio operators all have to have them, and they sure as hell aren't NCOs.  
All the Military Intelligence enlisted need them too.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 15:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Colosetti)
Date: Wed May 29 14:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Inertial Compensation Technology
References: <20529.132403.7N1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c20756$cb61ee90$1c577b83@gideon>

Thank you all for your input into this matter.  I now have a much better
idea of how compensation will work IMTU.

Anthony Colosetti


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 17:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mitch Haggman)
Date: Wed May 29 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Using Torg/Masterbook rules for Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020528.223843.-214627.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0205291539280.8295-100000@sephiroth.byte-me.org>

	As a rabid Torg/Masterbook fan, I'm all over this.  And I also 
echo the suggestion to look out for Shatterzone.  

	Don't forget to check Kansas Jim's webpage for errata and fixes if 
you're going to go ahead with this.  You can find it at: 
http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~jogle/TORG/

	-Mitch

> The obvious suggestion is to try to find a copy of the Shatterzone rules,
> since they are essentially the Torg/Masterbook rules with a SF setting. 
> It's a 2d10 dice roll instead of 1d20 for task resolution, and there are
> 'life points' instead of 'possibilities', but it's essentially the same
> basic rules, it still uses the drama deck, and it has campaign chrome for
> starships, psionics, cybernetics, etc.
> 
>                                             - Perry
> 
> "I think it's time we blow this scene...
> Get everybody and their stuff together...
> Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

-- 
"By god, I wish these calculations had been executed by steam."
	-Charles Babbage, 1821



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 17:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Baron Greystone)
Date: Wed May 29 16:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Ten Points for Style
Message-ID: <OE28ok1Cuj9uhoGTVdS000032f4@hotmail.com>

From: King Dub <kingdub@mac.com>
I happen to be a fan of Walter Jon Williams (especially Aristoi) but I
must admit, I've never heard of Ten Points for Style.  I wasn't able to
find it on ebay or Amazon, either.  Would you care to tell me what the
novel(s) are about?

Here you go, check this url:

http://www.thuntek.net/~walter/rock1.htm

A little background on the series from WJW himself, and the first chapter of
the third novel, online. Of course, it was long since published.

Let me know what you think!

Baron Greystone

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 18:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (King Dub)
Date: Wed May 29 17:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller IRC games?
In-Reply-To: <OE28ok1Cuj9uhoGTVdS000032f4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <F6797FC2-7360-11D6-BB1A-00050251E90C@mac.com>

Would anyone be kind enough to point me in the direction of an IRC 
Traveller game?

Thanks in advance.

King Dub


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 18:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May 29 17:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller IRC games?
In-Reply-To: <F6797FC2-7360-11D6-BB1A-00050251E90C@mac.com>
References: <OE28ok1Cuj9uhoGTVdS000032f4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CF52C03.9389.1F482BD@localhost>

King Dub and others

It just so happans that I am in the process of gathering players for 
a game an IRC and maybe email as well.  If anyone is up for a 
unquie challange of a multi media game email me for more 
information. 

Oh Eris first you left us the dark about how your players are doing 
in your PBEM game.  Whats going on there? Second, can I email 
you to find out more about running an PBEM game?

Tim Reynolds


On 29 May 2002, at 17:05, King Dub wrote:

> Would anyone be kind enough to point me in the direction of an IRC
> Traveller game?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> King Dub
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 18:33:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed May 29 17:33:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Memorial Day
Message-ID: <132.e824e25.2a26cbf0@aol.com>

>P.S.  I hope all US List members enjoyed their holiday weekend.  I managed 
>to combine a business trip and family wedding during mine.  It was fun AND 
>hectic.

I had a delightful time visiting a friend who was in Victoria Texas (couple 
of hours ride away on a Greyhound) on business. Thanks for asking.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 19:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed May 29 18:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller IRC games?
In-Reply-To: <3CF52C03.9389.1F482BD@localhost>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEMEHHAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

system?
Tentative time?
tentative starting date?
period/place?

jml
who is also vaguely seriously thinking about an irc type campaign thingee, 

King Dub and others

It just so happans that I am in the process of gathering players for 
a game an IRC and maybe email as well.  If anyone is up for a 
unquie challange of a multi media game email me for more 
information. 

Oh Eris first you left us the dark about how your players are doing 
in your PBEM game.  Whats going on there? Second, can I email 
you to find out more about running an PBEM game?

Tim Reynolds


On 29 May 2002, at 17:05, King Dub wrote:

> Would anyone be kind enough to point me in the direction of an IRC
> Traveller game?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> King Dub
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 19:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed May 29 18:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <F137THrdusluCBcKfEx0000122a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B91AC9E2.5CFFE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/29/02 1:01 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> I've found the Davis Gun after a google search.  The idea of a counter
> weight gun is superbly goofy enough for my needs.  Now I need only figure
> out how to design it.

One need look no further than the German designed Armbrust (crossbow) Light
anti-tank weapon.  It uses a countermass of compressed plastic ribbons and
has a very small rear danger space.  It can be safely fired from within a
building or covered foxhole.  Additionally, it has no flash and ver little
firing signature (on par with a 9mm pistol). Effective range is 300m with a
maximum range of 1500m.  Armor penetration is 300mm at 0 degrees.

> My worries exactly.  The combatants in Dirty Little War do have
> smokeless powder for small arms.  Once again querying the List's military
> boffins; are small arm propellents and artillery propellents basically the
> same?  If you've the ability to make one, do you then have the ability to
> make the other?

The only difference between artillery and small arms propellants is grain
size.  Composition is near identical.
> 
> "So if you want a RCL weapon with a shaped charge warhead, you might be
> able to build one at a Civil War tech level (American, not English)."
> 
> Definitely American Civil War or later.  The idea of Cromwell and his
> Ironsides tooling around in a homebrewed version of the US Army's Ontos is
> quite disturbing.  The real Cromwell was quite bad enough, thank you.
> Again, thank you for your help sir.

The problem here is that shaped charges require relatively high brisance
explosives.  Black powder is a low explosive, and smokeless powders do not
explodes, they deflegrate. Shaped charges require something of the order of
TNT, though something like gun cotton or a nitroglycerine based explosive
might be suitable.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 19:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed May 29 18:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller IRC games?
In-Reply-To: <3CF52C03.9389.1F482BD@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020530011445.63B33279B9@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/29/02 at 07:29 PM,  timothyreynolds@earthlink.net said:

>King Dub and others

>It just so happans that I am in the process of gathering players for 
>a game an IRC and maybe email as well.  If anyone is up for a  unquie
>challange of a multi media game email me for more  information. 

>Oh Eris first you left us the dark about how your players are doing 
>in your PBEM game.  Whats going on there? Second, can I email  you to
>find out more about running an PBEM game?

Not much at the moment and yes. <g>

The game has slowed down the last couple of weeks..I've been sick
<cough, cough>...but I'm going to try to get it moving along again. 
As for the second, sure!

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 20:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed May 29 19:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
Message-ID: <F181qZSHIpLv85DM6In0000ecaa@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "One need look no further than the German designed Armbrust (crossbow) 
Light anti-tank weapon."


Mr. Glenn,

     Jeepers, there's so MANY ways to kill tanks, ain't there?  Do you know 
of a Traveller desing system; FF&S1 or 2, Striker, GURPS, that one could 
actually build a counter weight gun with?  If not, I'll make do with the 
recoilless rifle.

     "The only difference between artillery and small arms propellants is 
grain size.  Composition is near identical."

     Excellent.  Just what I wanted to know, if you can make one, you can 
make the other.

     "The problem here is that shaped charges require relatively high 
brisance explosives."

     "Shaped charges require something of the order of TNT, though something 
like gun cotton or a nitroglycerine based explosive might be suitable."

     Okay, different stuff for propellent and warhead.  IIRC, FF&S and G:VE 
make you design each seperately anyway.
     Thanks for the information.  The TML puts Google to shame.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed May 29 20:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed May 29 19:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <F181qZSHIpLv85DM6In0000ecaa@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B91ADD33.5D057%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/29/02 7:18 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> 
> "One need look no further than the German designed Armbrust (crossbow)
> Light anti-tank weapon."
> 
> 
> Mr. Glenn,
> 
> Jeepers, there's so MANY ways to kill tanks, ain't there?  Do you know
> of a Traveller desing system; FF&S1 or 2, Striker, GURPS, that one could
> actually build a counter weight gun with?  If not, I'll make do with the
> recoilless rifle.

A countermass gun is a recoilless rifle.  The only difference is the mass
and velocity of the countermass.  The RCL utilizes low mass propellant
gasses expelled at high velocity, the 'countermass gun' uses a heavier mass.

I would design based on RCL, but expect the danger space to be much reduced
given a properly designed countermass.  The cartridge itself, as well as the
gun, should be as simple as the RCL, if not more so.  A simple tube, really.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 00:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andy Brick)
Date: Wed May 29 23:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dumb things in Traveller games ...
In-Reply-To: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17BC1@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <NGBBIHMMOLPFJELICHOKOELJCOAA.andy@exeus.com>

Ok.

I've tried not to tell these tales, but I can't resist anymore. I propose a
"Darwin Award" for Traveller characters who remove themselves from the
Imperial Gene Pool in the most inventive manner, as follows -


* A skilled pilot, who christened his newly purchased Scout "The Wallaby"
after a fast, agile terran marsupial, and who then demonstrated the apt
choice of name by a horrendous series of botched rolls, resulting in the
ship literally bouncing into the starport park bay ...

* A marine, who when going to meet his long time foe for a final
confrontation, specifically stated that he would not being carrying any
ironmongery, as he figured that this time he'd take on his opponent hand to
hand ... and who was pleasantly surprised by the appearance of his nemesis
wearing full battle dress with a FGMP-15 ...

* A merchant, who decided that the stock market was the best place to invest
the other characters' shares from the most recent exploit, only to have to
explain (at gunpoint, of course) why everyone was flat broke when the
markets crashed ...

* A scout who insisted that it was perfectly safe to crawl on the outside of
the hull whilst in jump. Not only that, but that the only safety precaution
needed was "a nylon tether rope in case I get lost" ...

* A gunner onboard a merchant, who, when presented with a solar sail tug
towing a large iceteroid, thought it would be funny to open fire on the tow
cable mounting and watch the unmanned tug suddenly accelerate now it was
without its cargo - except that the rest of his fellow crew members had
formed an away team and were onboard ...

* Another scout, who stood up in an air/raft in order to get a better view
of the target, just as the pilot neatly inverted the air/raft as part of
evasive manoeuvres ...

* Yet another scout, who insisted to try to circumvent an electronic lock on
a airlock door by directing a colleague to open fire with a tripod mounted
plasma gun, without bothering to check the safe distance ...

* A navigator who deliberately plotted a  micro jump to position a starship
inside the vast docking area of an orbital station, and forgot to allow for
the fact that a week later it wouldn't be there having moved on in its orbit
(the exact words were "I want to emerge precisely 300 metres from this
position ...").

* A merchant who tried very hard to convince the natives of a TL3 waterless
backwater that the cargo they had hauled across half a planet was actually
very valuable sand.

* A love-struck ex army type, who tried to fly up to the balcony of his
beloved using a grav belt in order to recite poetry through her window, only
to discover the meaning of "unskilled", and in addition should really have
not guessed which balcony it was ...

I could go on ...

/Andy B

















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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 02:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu May 30 01:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dumb things in Traveller games ...
In-Reply-To: <NGBBIHMMOLPFJELICHOKOELJCOAA.andy@exeus.com>
References: <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17BC1@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020530034031.0096a6f0@minn.net>

At 07:39 AM 5/30/2002 +0100, Andy B wrote:
>Ok.
>
>I've tried not to tell these tales, but I can't resist anymore. I propose a
>"Darwin Award" for Traveller characters who remove themselves from the
>Imperial Gene Pool in the most inventive manner, as follows -

[snip]

This probably wouldn't count, but...

The player charcater party was in an extremly dire situation (I wasn't in
charge)
and it was about time for me to go home (I was still living in mother's
house, 
grrr...). So my character asked another character if he could borrow his
"Skorpion
-type" machine pistol. When my character received the weapon ("Here, it
shoots a 
bit to the left.") he shot himself in the head.


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic.					--Sir Arthur C. Clarke
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently advanced technology is really, really, cool.
					--R. Hemmerding
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 03:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frank Pitt)
Date: Thu May 30 02:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Picky, picky...
In-Reply-To: <200205291505.HHQ08133@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEKCHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> "Frank Pitt" says
> >The reason they want officers to pilot planes is that 
> >they trust officers more, because they are more heavily 
> >brainwashed than other ranks ( Other than in the U.S. 
> >Marine Corps, where the other ranks are as brainwashed
> >as the officers. <grin>) 
> >
> >A "kid off the street" couldn't be trusted to do what 
> >they were told or get a security clearance. 
> 
> I guess that's why when I was an E4, I and one other person 
> had weapons and the authority to use them on the officers in 
> the battery control center - without warning, without 
> consultation, and with the authority to ignore any pleadings 
> those officers might make - if they were issuing "illegal" 
> orders in relation to nuclear weapons.  I don't recall seeing 
> any officers with weapons in those situations.

Note that they only trusted you with a small-arm,
you weren't put in charge of the nuclear weapon.

And note they didn't trust just _one_ of you to 
perform this task.

The worst/best you could do is _prevent_ a nuclear launch, 
and then only if you got the officers before you were 
killed by the other guy.

This is exactly what I was talking about, the guys 
trusted with using the important weapon are the officers, 
not the other ranks.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antti Heikkila)
Date: Thu May 30 06:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <B91AC9E2.5CFFE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.30.0205300848500.22163-100000@tekno.helsinki.fi>

On Wed, 29 May 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 5/29/02 1:01 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > "So if you want a RCL weapon with a shaped charge warhead, you might be
> > able to build one at a Civil War tech level (American, not English)."
> >
> > Definitely American Civil War or later.  The idea of Cromwell and his
> > Ironsides tooling around in a homebrewed version of the US Army's Ontos=
 is
> > quite disturbing.  The real Cromwell was quite bad enough, thank you.
> > Again, thank you for your help sir.
>
> The problem here is that shaped charges require relatively high brisance
> explosives.  Black powder is a low explosive, and smokeless powders do no=
t
> explodes, they deflegrate. Shaped charges require something of the order =
of
> TNT, though something like gun cotton or a nitroglycerine based explosive
> might be suitable.

I'm new to this list, but I think you have missed one point: putting a
metal liner to a shaped charge is credited to Henry Mohaupt, 1935.
Monroe, working 50 years before him, used linerless charges, which makes a
big difference in armor penetration. After Mohaupt's discovery, the
military application was very quickly implemented during WWII. (Mohaupt
moved to the U.S. and took over the bazooka project in late 1940.)

Explosive filler for the warhead would (IMO) not be a major problem
compared with the lack of the liner. Picric acid and RDX (cyclonite) were
known in the 1880's.



--
 Antti Heikkil=E4
 www.helsinki.fi/people/Antti.Heikkila

The world has achieved brilliance without conscience...
Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.
=09- Omar Nelson Bradley


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 08:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu May 30 07:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Picky, picky...
Message-ID: <200205301417.HJL00238@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Frank Pitt" says
>Note that they only trusted you with a small-arm,
>you weren't put in charge of the nuclear weapon.
>
They didn't trust any *one* person to do anything around a 
nuclear weapon.  Also, there were many, many places and tasks 
which an enlisted person was assigned to do that would not 
only prevent a launch, but would make it possible to do so.

The officers knew so little about how to do any of this, that 
if they wanted to fire one, it would only take one enlisted 
man to stop it - possibly in a way that would neither be 
detected, nor found in a timely manner.

So maybe the designers didn't trust the officers, either.

Maybe a nuclear weapon is larger, but a rifle is personal, 
and on the statistical scale "more likely to be used".  There 
were many officers who would not enter the X-area if they 
knew that I was in one of the towers with a loaded M24. The 
orders that came written from on high specified in detail who 
I could shoot and when - without asking or warning.  Many 
officers had gotten used to operating in the X-area with 
complete disregard for the rules.  They even tried to "order" 
me to disregard the written orders (two man rule, being one 
of them).  I replied only that I would carry out the orders 
as written.  Now I didn't write the orders - but I think some 
civilians at some government consulting firm may have - I 
know the people who wrote the SOP for the Pershing missile 
platoon, and not one of them had been military.

In many ways, officers are as helpless as the enlisted.  They 
just don't know it.  Ever see a captain make short dashes 
from vehicle to vehicle because he knows I'm in the tower, 
and he knows he's moving alone?  Watch him dive onto concrete 
as he makes the corner of the building?  Just because some 
wag said, "Hey look, Kwon's up there!"
________________
ICQ 34855601
MSN jtk81@hotmail.com
AIM VASmalltalk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 08:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu May 30 07:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Picky, picky...
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEKCHNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
References: <200205291505.HHQ08133@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020530071435.009e3ec0@mindspring.com>

At 09:32 PM 5/30/02 +1200, you wrote:
>Note that they only trusted you with a small-arm,
>you weren't put in charge of the nuclear weapon.

I had a security clearance when I was 19.  I can't tell you what it was or 
what I knew, that being the whole point of security.  However than are 
thousands of enlisted soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines who run around 
everyday with classified jobs.  Yes, everyone is under the orders of a 
similarly cleared officers, but that is the case everywhere.  Officers give 
the orders, we pick up the rifles and grunt.

I knew a soldier who worked at one of the IRBM missile sites in 
Turkey.  While the final launch was in the hands of officers, every other 
day to day aspect of the care and feeding of the nuclear weapons was in the 
hands of the EMs and NCOs.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.         The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 08:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Thu May 30 07:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dumb things in Traveller games ...
In-Reply-To: <NGBBIHMMOLPFJELICHOKOELJCOAA.andy@exeus.com>
Message-ID: <004501c207e8$fb531b50$2f7de40c@loki>

From Andy's list I get the impression that the rules for character
generation are correct in killing off so many scouts.

I had a character whose failed attempt at suicide was the laughing point
of the group for years. Any of these 'Darwin Award' attempts might well
have done the job.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 10:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu May 30 09:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <F137THrdusluCBcKfEx0000122a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020530160137.94940.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> From: "Victor J. Raymond" <vraymond@iastate.edu>
> 
>      "Though I know you said off-list, this might be
> relevant to other 
> Traveller referees."
> 
> 
> Mr. Raymond,
> 
>      Your thought that this discussion may be
> relevant to others is, of 
> course, correct sir.  Whatever was I thinking when I
> thought the List may 
> not want to talk about guns?  8^)
> 
<snippag>
> 
>      My worries exactly.  The combatants in Dirty
> Little War do have 
> smokeless powder for small arms.  Once again
> querying the List's military 
> boffins; are small arm propellents and artillery
> propellents basically the 
> same?  If you've the ability to make one, do you
> then have the ability to 
> make the other?
> 
>      "So if you want a RCL weapon with a shaped
> charge warhead, you might be 
> able to build one at a Civil War tech level
> (American, not English)."
>
  >>
  Oh, yes! See below!
  >>
> 
>      Definitely American Civil War or later.  The
> idea of Cromwell and his 
> Ironsides tooling around in a homebrewed version of
> the US Army's Ontos is 
> quite disturbing.  The real Cromwell was quite bad
> enough, thank you.
>      Again, thank you for your help sir.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 
> 
  >>
  For the actual Armbrust RR:

http://www.jed.simonides.org/support/law/armbrust_series/armbrust-series.html

  Also, check out FM 31-210, Improvised Munitions
Handbook for more info on 'stand cannons'.

   MACessna
  >>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 10:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu May 30 09:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] MyMines
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020530092036.009f5a80@mindspring.com>

I need the original creator of the MyMines corporation to contact me ASAP.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 11:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu May 30 10:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dumb things in Traveller games ...
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1022781353.0.71744800@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Well, I guess we all now know why the Scout Service has such a poor survival roll.

David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 12:05:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu May 30 11:05:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller IRC games?
In-Reply-To: <B91AD27C.5C62%kingdub@mac.com>
References: <3CF52C03.9389.1F482BD@localhost>
Message-ID: <3CF62402.24519.5862A2@localhost>

Employer: Journal of Traveller Aid Society
Location: Mertactor (District 286 1537)

Salary:  Based on Experience 


Journal of Traveller Aid Society the most renowned news and support 
service of the Imperium is seeking enthusiastic reporters, visual 
specialist and researchers for a plan expansion into District 268.  This 
means there are plenty of positions open for enthusiastic people who 
wish to travel and experience one of the last frontiers of the Imperium. 
With over 30 systems in the District there are plenty of opportunities for 
a self-started who is not afraid to take chances.   

Requirements:
Must be willing to work on a flexible schedule including evening, 
overnight and weekend. Qualified individuals must be able to handle 
multiple and varied assignments.  Since this is an open call for applicants 
to fit many positions we are open to a wide range of characteristics, 
experiences, skills, and knowledge.  Therefor, if one is interested please 
submit a UPP and skills sheet along with a cover letter noting your 
interests, desires and experiences.

Preferred Qualifications: 
Since these jobs require consent relocation and some dangers we are 
seeking people with either a starship and or combat experience so 
veterans and scouts will receive preferential treatment.

Last Day to Apply:
Open till filled

Contact:
Timothy Reynolds at JTAS headquarters on Mertactor via 
timothyreynolds@earthlink.net 



Ok back to real life:

I am working on starting a PBEM and IRC game using the JTAS and 
District 286 as the background.  If you are interested in giving this a shot 
send a GURPS character of 100 +50 disadvantages/advantages and +5 
quirks as well as a cover letter/background info.   I am willing to let the 
characters cover the subjects they like so have fun making up characters. 
 

My idea is to run this very loosely as a lot of solo or small group games 
so rate of participation wont matter much, but the more you play the 
more fun you will have.  

Tim Reynolds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 12:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu May 30 11:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEADCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>One need look no further than the German designed Armbrust (crossbow) Light
>anti-tank weapon.  It uses a countermass of compressed plastic ribbons and
>has a very small rear danger space.  It can be safely fired from within a
>building or covered foxhole.  Additionally, it has no flash and ver little
>firing signature (on par with a 9mm pistol). Effective range is 300m with a
>maximum range of 1500m.  Armor penetration is 300mm at 0 degrees.

Thanks for this fascinating information.  Would you mind describing how a
countermass weapon works?  The URL

http://www.jed.simonides.org/support/law/armbrust_series/armbrust/armbrust_0
02.jpg

doesn't provide much text, but some good pictures.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 13:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Thu May 30 12:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] HoloControls?
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020530092036.009f5a80@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c20811$bb079de0$0100a8c0@pentacle>

The link is to an acrobat document about the device.  If they pull it off it
could be cool, but still no tactile feeback.

http://www.virtualdevices.net/Flyer.pdf

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
=========================='The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the
one  that heralds the most discoveries, is not "Eureka!"  (I found it!)  but
"That's funny..."' -Isaac Asimov




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 16:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu May 30 15:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEADCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B91BF095.5D114%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/30/02 11:44 AM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

> Thanks for this fascinating information.  Would you mind describing how a
> countermass weapon works?  The URL
> 
> http://www.jed.simonides.org/support/law/armbrust_series/armbrust/armbrust_0
> 02.jpg
> 
> doesn't provide much text, but some good pictures.

I put up a graphic explaination of the armbrust at
http://weapons.travellercentral.com/heavy/armbrust_func.jpg

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 16:36:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu May 30 15:36:18 2002
Subject: [TML] MyMines
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020530092036.009f5a80@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CF75176.3B03F46B@mindspring.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:

> I need the original creator of the MyMines corporation to contact me ASAP.
>
> --

Mark Ayers was the creator of the MYMINES thread. I created the character Ark
Ramsey and MYMINES at  the New Rome and  Glisten Landgrabs with his
permission.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The charms of a passing woman are usually in direct relation
to the speed of her passing.
                              -Marcel Proust



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 16:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu May 30 15:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Fighters
In-Reply-To: <177.8ff9113.2a262dfb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEFJEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

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Terry C opines:
>
>
>I also suspect that the "fighter" is a weapon that will not be around much
>>longer. We are rapidly getting to the "if it flies it dies" point of
>>technology.

>
>That was certainly Soviet air defense doctrine in the 1980s and 1990s --
"Nothing can survive in our ADA zone, not even our own aircraft." The Gulf
War demonstrated that this doctrine was flawed (admittedly it was the
Iraqis, not the Soviets carrying it out but the Iraqis were doing it right
out of the Soviet book), and Russian AD doctrine is* in a state of flux.
>
>LKW
>
>* I admit I'm about 5 years out of date on this subject. They've probably
reformulated their doctrine by now, but I haven't kept up on >it. Not doing
Twilight: 2000 any more, I don't have to keep up on this kind of thing these
days..

It is certainly quite true that doctrine based on the deny the enemy the use
of aircraft has been around awhile, and that the technology has not been
there to make it a reality.  This has been because of the advance of
technology that has extended the combat life of the aircraft as a weapon
platform.

The reason that the above mentioned doctrine was flawed was because of two
U.S. inventions. One the HARM missile was used to prevent SAM missile from
being effective by destroying the radar site required by said missiles, the
other was stealth aircraft, which were difficult, if not impossible for the
SAM radars to see.

These are technological advantages that other countries do not enjoy at the
present time. They are predicated on two facts. The first being that the
technology does not yet exist that will allow HARM missiles to be destroyed
while inbound. A working laser antimissile weapon, which could be deployed
against both missiles and aircraft would shift the balance away from the
aircraft. (Its true that a later development, which rendered the laser
ineffective, might shift it back.) The second is, of course, a system that
will allow detection of the present stealth aircraft. This may already be
possible using, of all things, cell phone technology.

There are also other factors. Politically it is much better for the
president to lose two drones in a successful attack than to lose two planes
and pilots. Also there is the cost factor. If an aircraft is so expensive
that its loss becomes economically restrictive compared to the cost of
knocking it down than the balance also shifts a little.

Someone else mentioned that fighter pilots, who are officers, won&#8217;t easily
give up the elite positions they now hold to some 19 year old enlisted
person who can beat their pants off flying a drone, due to much experience
with video games. I&#8217;ve no doubt cavalry officers felt the same about the
sergeants driving tanks and recon vehicles that made them obsolete.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



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<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Terry C =
opines:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 3.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:39.15pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 3.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&gt;I
also suspect that the &quot;fighter&quot; is a weapon that will not be =
around
much<br>
&gt;&gt;longer. We are rapidly getting to the &quot;if it flies it =
dies&quot;
point of<br>
&gt;&gt;technology. </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-color-alt:wind=
owtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;That was certainly Soviet air defense doctrine in the 1980s and =
1990s --
&quot;Nothing can survive in our ADA zone, not even our own =
aircraft.&quot; The
Gulf War demonstrated that this doctrine was flawed (admittedly it was =
the
Iraqis, not the Soviets carrying it out but the Iraqis were doing it =
right out
of the Soviet book), and Russian AD doctrine is* in a state of flux.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;LKW<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;* I admit I'm about 5 years out of date on this subject. They've =
probably
reformulated their doctrine by now, but I haven't kept up on &gt;it. Not =
doing
Twilight: 2000 any more, I don't have to keep up on this kind of thing =
these
days..</span></font><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>It=
 is certainly
quite true that doctrine based on the deny the enemy the use of aircraft =
has
been around awhile, and that the technology has not been there to make =
it a
reality. <span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0</span>This has been =
because of the
advance of technology that has extended the combat life of the aircraft =
as a
weapon platform. <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Th=
e reason
that the above mentioned doctrine was flawed was because of two U.S.
inventions. One the HARM missile was used to prevent SAM missile from =
being effective
by destroying the radar site required by said missiles, the other was =
stealth aircraft,
which were difficult, if not impossible for the SAM radars to =
see.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Th=
ese are
technological advantages that other countries do not enjoy at the =
present time.
They are predicated on two facts. The first being that the technology =
does not
yet exist that will allow HARM missiles to be destroyed while inbound. A
working laser antimissile weapon, which could be deployed against both =
missiles
and aircraft would shift the balance away from the aircraft. (Its true =
that a
later development, which rendered the laser ineffective, might shift it =
back.)
The second is, of course, a system that will allow detection of the =
present
stealth aircraft. This may already be possible using, of all things, =
cell phone
technology.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Th=
ere are
also other factors. Politically it is much better for the president to =
lose two
drones in a successful attack than to lose two planes and pilots. Also =
there is
the cost factor. If an aircraft is so expensive that its loss becomes
economically restrictive compared to the cost of knocking it down than =
the
balance also shifts a little.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>So=
meone
else mentioned that fighter pilots, who are officers, won=92t easily =
give up the
elite positions they now hold to some 19 year old enlisted person who =
can beat
their pants off flying a drone, due to much experience with video games. =
I=92ve
no doubt cavalry officers felt the same about the sergeants driving =
tanks and
recon vehicles that made them =
obsolete.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><!--[if supportFields]><span =
class=3DEmailStyle15><font=20
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-element:field-begin'></span><span=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0</span>AUTOTEXTLIST \s &quot;E-mail =
Signature&quot; <span=20
style=3D'mso-element:field-separator'></span></span></font></span><![endi=
f]--><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoBodyText><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman";
color:navy'>Terry C</span></font><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman";
color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoList><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman";
color:navy'>All that is Gold does not glitter</span></font><font =
size=3D3
color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Not all who travel are lost =
</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><!--[if supportFields]><span =
class=3DEmailStyle15><font=20
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-element:field-end'></span></span></font></span><![endif]--><=
span
class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><span
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">=A0</span></span></font><font =
color=3Dblack><span
style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2080B.8EE17D40--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 17:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu May 30 16:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Picky Picky
In-Reply-To: <B9199049.5CE82%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEFJEAAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> I also suspect that the "fighter" is a weapon that will not be around
much
>> longer. We are rapidly getting to the "if it flies it dies" point of
>> technology. It is already that way for lower tech aircraft (pretty much
what
>> most countries have.) Almost all new high tech combat aircraft now being
>> built (by the U.S. anyway) seem to me to be ground support aircraft. I
will
>> admit this is not my area (I'm an old Navy man, but I try to keep up,)
but
>> look at what the U.S. is buying.
>
>I suspect the reason for more multi-role or ground attack capable aircraft
>is because there is really no credible opposing airforce, rather than the
>effectiveness of AA (which is still suspect, and not as effective as many
>believe.  Note Iraq, which had a very credible ground based A).
>
As I stated in another post they were simply beaten by the technological
edge that the U.S. has. It is my opinion that the only reason that the U.S.
hasn't developed better antiaircraft technology is because there's no
pressing need for it as long as the U.S. armed forces feel they possess air
superiority. A better antiair weapon system would more greatly effect the
U.S.'s air superiority than not. Kind of like the way the British Navy at
the turn of the century wasn't terribly interested in the submarine. It was
a weapon that was more hazardous to the British, which possessed a superior
navy, than to other countries which were threatened by said navy.

>And I'd take issue that aircraft being built or in the development phase
are
>purpose built ground attack craft.  The US has always favored multirole
>aircraft, and aircraft like the YF-22 are air superiority aircraft, hence
>the 'F' designation.
>
>The services thoughtfully name their aircraft based on their role.  'F' for
>fighters, 'A' for attack.  Some fighters have been pressed into the attack
>role (e.g. the F-16, which was designed as a dedicated fighter, but it can
>drop bombs.)  In fact, it seems to me, looking over the current US
>inventory, that there is a distinct lack of dedicated ground attach
>aircraft.
>--
Indeed there is, and the next generation of attack craft slated for purchase
by all three services that fly fixed wing craft is the Joint Strike Fighter.
As you stated this is also a multirole aircraft. As previously mentioned by
someone, many pilots simply do not consider ground support as sexy enough, a
reason the Marines provide their own to a certain extent. They will be
buying a VTOL version of the JSF to replace their aging harriers (probably
one of the best things we've gotten from the British since we started
bringing Gin across the pond.)


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 23:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William & Melissa Kendell)
Date: Thu May 30 22:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Picky, picky...
In-Reply-To: <001701c206ac$e8ff9240$f5b18b90@computer>
References: <20020528082805.A6608279FB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020531150832.0115d400@planet.net.au>

At 10:49 AM 29/05/02 +1000, you wrote:
>> From: "Kelly St.Clair"
>> Pilots are already cranky about being assigned to Predator duty, which

<snip>

>
>Hmm.  Do you really need an "officer and gentleman" to supervise a robot, or
>would "just some corporal" be adequate for the task?  I'm assuming that
>there would always need to be some human supervision, even past the video
>game stage.  In the video game phase "some kid off the streets" might
>actually be the best choice!
>
>Alan Bradley
>abradley1@bigpond.com
>


Ender Wiggin :)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu May 30 23:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Thu May 30 22:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] MyMines
In-Reply-To: <3CF75176.3B03F46B@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <001001c20865$d0d7d500$2f7de40c@loki>

I have sent mail to Douglas off the list confessing to my evil yet
satisfying creation.

-peace-
The views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you
expect?
<n2sami@attbi.com>
<http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/> 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 13:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri May 31 12:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEAJCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>I put up a graphic explaination of the armbrust at
>http://weapons.travellercentral.com/heavy/armbrust_func.jpg

Thanks, Tod.  I still haven't quite gotten my mind around the concept.  I
guess the compressed rubber bands sort of push the warhead out the front and
themselves out the back.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 13:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri May 31 12:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] MyMines
References: <001001c20865$d0d7d500$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <3CF87CF1.3282429@mindspring.com>

Mark wrote:

> I have sent mail to Douglas off the list confessing to my evil yet
> satisfying creation.
>
> -peace-
> The views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you
> expect?
> <n2sami@attbi.com>
> <http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

How about a picture for the Landgrab, Mark? Presently I'm using Frank
Perdue, The Chicken King. Beats penguins tits down when marinated
properly. ;)


--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
We can lick gravity, but sometimes the paperwork is overwhelming.
                               -Wernher von Braun



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 13:54:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor J. Raymond)
Date: Fri May 31 12:54:42 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
Message-ID: <200205311951.OAA17982@mailhub-1.iastate.edu>

> >From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> >
> >I put up a graphic explaination of the armbrust at
> >http://weapons.travellercentral.com/heavy/armbrust_func.jpg
> 
> Thanks, Tod.  I still haven't quite gotten my mind around the concept.  I
> guess the compressed rubber bands sort of push the warhead out the front and
> themselves out the back.
> 
> --Glenn

Any countermass weapon uses good old Newtonian physics to make things work.  If 
you want to make something move at a particular speed, and it weighs a 
particular amount, you have to balance that out with something going out the 
other end that has the same weight and speed (any Physics types can intervene 
at any time, but only to make it more clear).

In the case of the Davis Gun, the original "countermass" was leadshot in a 
block of grease, IIRC.  The shell was fired out one end and the leadshot and 
grease went out the back end.  From what I have gathered, the Armbrust is a 
nifty high-tech variant on this idea (but I haven't looked at the website 
explanation yet).


Victor Jason Raymond
Department of Sociology, Iowa State University
vraymond@iastate.edu








From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 13:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri May 31 12:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] ISSDEC help
Message-ID: <3CF7D3D6.C874EE14@mail.cswnet.com>

I've lost the ISSDEC site address...
can someone tell me where it is?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 14:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri May 31 13:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEAJCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002101c208e5$767fb890$c300a8c0@matt>

> Thanks, Tod.  I still haven't quite gotten my mind around the concept.  I
> guess the compressed rubber bands sort of push the warhead out the front
and
> themselves out the back.
>
> --Glenn

I think that it is still explosively powered... There is a charge between
the warhead and the countermass. Firing the weapon sets off the charge,
which propells both the warhead and countermass out of the respective ends
of the weapon, with equal momentum thus no recoil. The warhead flies on its
merry way to the target, the countermass, in this case thin plastic strips,
is ejected to the rear causing a danger space behind. As this particular
weapon uses thin plastic strips as countermass, these will be rapidly
decellerated by the atmosphere and tumble to the ground. Their energy is
absorbed by a relatively large mass of atmosphere, thus the dangerspace is
very small in comparison to other possible countermasses (such as hot
gasses...)

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 15:01:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri May 31 14:01:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Hole in the Fence.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020530034031.0096a6f0@minn.net>
References: <NGBBIHMMOLPFJELICHOKOELJCOAA.andy@exeus.com>
 <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E512C17BC1@r1clex01.cbr.defence.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020531160124.0096b5d0@minn.net>

This may be off topic.

I just saw THE SUM OF ALL FEARS, in one scene the character of John Clark
sprays something on a chain link fence and then he tears a man sized hole
in the fence.

My theories on what was sprayed are either a chemical agent that effects
steel wire or it was liquid nitrogen which should cause steel wire to snap
under stress.

I'm inclined to believe it was the latter.

Are cans of liquid nitrogen available over the counter in the 3I? If so,
for how many credits?


Les

=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic.					--Sir Arthur C. Clarke
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently advanced technology is really, really, cool.
					--R. Hemmerding
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 15:07:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 31 14:07:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Hole in the Fence.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020531160124.0096b5d0@minn.net>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020530034031.0096a6f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3CF7A000.32061.F52065@localhost>

On 31 May 2002, at 16:01, Leslie Bates wrote:

Sure it is any anybody's universe.  And I dont see why it can not 
be in the OTU as well.  

Tim

> 
> This may be off topic.
> 
> I just saw THE SUM OF ALL FEARS, in one scene the character of John
> Clark sprays something on a chain link fence and then he tears a man
> sized hole in the fence.
> 
> My theories on what was sprayed are either a chemical agent that
> effects steel wire or it was liquid nitrogen which should cause steel
> wire to snap under stress.
> 
> I'm inclined to believe it was the latter.
> 
> Are cans of liquid nitrogen available over the counter in the 3I? If
> so, for how many credits?
> 
> 
> Les
> 
> =================================================================
> Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET P.O. Box 581211,
> Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
> ----------------------------------------------------------------- Any
> sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
> magic.					--Sir Arthur C. Clarke
> ----------------------------------------------------------------- Any
> sufficiently advanced technology is really, really, cool.
>      --R. Hemmerding
> =================================================================
> _______________________________________________ TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri May 31 14:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Hole in the Fence.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020531160124.0096b5d0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1022880365.5566.ajackson@ping>

Leslie Bates writes:
> 
> My theories on what was sprayed are either a chemical agent that effects
> steel wire or it was liquid nitrogen which should cause steel wire to snap
> under stress.
> 
> I'm inclined to believe it was the latter.

Only if it was cinematic liquid nitrogen.  Then again, only if it were a
cinematic chemical agent, so... The usual way of going through a chain link
fence is (surprise) wire cutters.
> 
> Are cans of liquid nitrogen available over the counter in the 3I? If so,
> for how many credits?

Not over a typical counter, but if you need it assume it's available by the ton
in bulk, for around Cr 0.1/liter.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 15:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri May 31 14:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Information, please: Recoilless Rifles
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEAJCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B91D3CB0.5D232%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 5/31/02 12:31 PM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

>> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>> 
>> I put up a graphic explaination of the armbrust at
>> http://weapons.travellercentral.com/heavy/armbrust_func.jpg
> 
> Thanks, Tod.  I still haven't quite gotten my mind around the concept.  I
> guess the compressed rubber bands sort of push the warhead out the front and
> themselves out the back.

There's a small propellant charge between two pistons.  When the weapon is
fire, one piston pushes out the warhead, the other pushes out the
countermass in the opposite direction.  The pistons are captured at the ends
of the tube, sealing in the flash and noise.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 16:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri May 31 15:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller: The Silly Era
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020531154521.009f4060@mindspring.com>

OK, inbetween bouts of writing, I've been cruising my sites looking for 
places to improve them.  I've come to Traveller: The Silly Era.

Every time I've mentioned taking it down before, people have howled in 
protest.  But I'm facing facts.  It's old, I haven't had a new idea for it 
in ages, and to be blunt, nobody has given me any.  It takes up room.

So, I'm asking you:

Go to http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/silytrav.html  and look 
around.  Then answer this question

What do you want to see done with the site?

a) Close it. You're right, this was funny when T4 was out, but it's dated now.

b) Keep it!  It is a national treasure!

c) Cut it down to the best items and put them on one page.

d) Try to farm the hosting out.

e) Either b or c, but update the look!  Those little sun icons are a disgrace.

f) Fnord.  I was mail the Penguin the secret Grand Jury testimony along 
with my opinion.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 19:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Fri May 31 18:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] MyMines
In-Reply-To: <3CF87CF1.3282429@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <002701c2090d$954929a0$2f7de40c@loki>

Ark Ramsey, founder and president of MyMines.

Let's see if we don't have a image in the Imperial criminal database.

[Seeking]

<months later>

[None found]

Okay, how 'bout the upstanding citizen database.

[Err. We don't have one.]

Okay. I'll pop a digital mug shot to you next week Alan.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 19:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark)
Date: Fri May 31 18:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller: The Silly Era
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020531154521.009f4060@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <002801c2090e$89c5a9e0$2f7de40c@loki>

a) It was dated before Traveller was published
b) It IS a national treasure. Alert the Smithsonian!
c) Cut it? Best items? They are all priceless gems of wisdom.
d) Yes. See item b) and
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/silytra
v.html
e) Should there be an e)?
f) Your system reports it cannot receive the transcript.
Overloaded/crashed

-peace-
The views expressed are those of an escaped lunatic. What did you
expect?
<n2sami@attbi.com>
<http://home.attbi.com/~n2sami/> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 20:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri May 31 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller: The Silly Era
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020531154521.009f4060@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020531210051.0096d4f0@minn.net>

At 03:53 PM 5/31/2002 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>OK, inbetween bouts of writing, I've been cruising my sites looking for 
>places to improve them.  I've come to Traveller: The Silly Era.

[snip]

>So, I'm asking you:
>
>Go to http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/silytrav.html  and look 
>around.  Then answer this question
>
>What do you want to see done with the site?

[snip]

>b) Keep it!  It is a national treasure!

Keep it and update it.

Odd theories about the effect of penguins on human history and the practice
of joke warfare during the interstellar wars would be nice. (Did any of the
Vilani ever get Monty Python's undertaker sketch?)


Les
 
=================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic.					--Sir Arthur C. Clarke
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently advanced technology is really, really, cool.
					--R. Hemmerding
=================================================================

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 20:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May 31 19:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller: The Silly Era
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020531154521.009f4060@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020531154521.009f4060@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3sn47ka6u.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> b) Keep it!  It is a national treasure!

Unless you're just completely starved for space, keep it.  Even should
you remove it, at least zip up the material and make each page a small
one with a link to the zip file.  This preserves the integrity of the
URLs.

The Internet is the new Alexandria.  Libraries don't pare their
collections for a lack of readers, and neither should web sites.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christos Anesti!  Alithos Anesti!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 20:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri May 31 19:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Travellers Aide/Type S Scout?
Message-ID: <3CF833DC.90AB42FB@mail.cswnet.com>

Another thought or two on the possible Trav Aide for the Type S.

I would like to see a couple of pages on the Suleiman and variants
that would be like the Free Trader schematics inside the front cover of
the Starship Operators Manual. Then we could go through it and slap on
our own paint scheme and stuff. That would be neat.

On history: a theory to be bounced around.

In the game Imperuim, the sillouhetes for the Vilani and Terrans do not
look anything like the Sulieman Type S. But the Sulieman does show up in
T4. So...the Sulieman must have initially been a Sylean Federation
design...

I'll head for the bunker now and see what everyone thinks on this one.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 20:45:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri May 31 19:45:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller: The Silly Era
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020531154521.009f4060@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020601024210.948FC279A6@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/31/02 at 03:53 PM,  Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
said:

>What do you want to see done with the site?

Why in the world would you want to take Traveller: The Silly Era down?
It's not a national treasure, it's an interstellar treasure!

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 20:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri May 31 19:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller: The Silly Era
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020531154521.009f4060@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020601024931.3FACD279C3@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 05/31/02 at 03:53 PM,  Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
said:

>Every time I've mentioned taking it down before, people have howled
>in  protest.  But I'm facing facts.  It's old, I haven't had a new
>idea for it  in ages, and to be blunt, nobody has given me any.  It
>takes up room.

>So, I'm asking you:

>Go to http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/silytrav.html  and look 
>around.  Then answer this question

>What do you want to see done with the site?

BTW, if you go to www.archive.org and use "The Wayback Machine" you'll
find that the entire site is archived already.  If they are going to
maintain copies of those pages in perpetuity, you could just point
folks to there, *but* I'd rather you kept the site and added some
things.  For example, the Traveller Darwin Awards would be an
excellent addition.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 21:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri May 31 20:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller: The Silly Era
In-Reply-To: <m3sn47ka6u.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020531154521.009f4060@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3CF7F818.9344.24D48C6@localhost>

On 31 May 2002, at 20:24, Robert Uhl wrote:

> Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> > 
> > b) Keep it!  It is a national treasure!
> 
> Unless you're just completely starved for space, keep it.  Even should
> you remove it, at least zip up the material and make each page a small
> one with a link to the zip file.  This preserves the integrity of the
> URLs.
> 
> The Internet is the new Alexandria.  Libraries don't pare their
> collections for a lack of readers, and neither should web sites.


I am sorry but we do !! its called weeding and it happens all the 
time. Shelf space is very costly.  Materials are often thrown away, 
given away or at least put into storage.  

Tim Reynolds
Masters of Library and Information Science

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri May 31 23:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri May 31 22:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller: The Silly Era
In-Reply-To: <3CF7F818.9344.24D48C6@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020531154521.009f4060@mindspring.com>
 <3CF7F818.9344.24D48C6@localhost>
Message-ID: <m3y9dzimfu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net writes:
>
> > The Internet is the new Alexandria.  Libraries don't pare their
> > collections for a lack of readers, and neither should web sites.
> 
> I am sorry but we do !! its called weeding and it happens all the 
> time. Shelf space is very costly.  Materials are often thrown away, 
> given away or at least put into storage.  

I deliberately wrote `for a lack of readers.'  Shelf space is one
thing, and analagous to a lack of disc space.  Fortunately, in this
great world in which 100GB drives are approx. $0, space is not really
a consideration.

In retrospect, `for a lack of readers' is not quite right.  More like
throwing away a series because the author's not come up with anything
new.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Christ is Risen!  Truly He is Risen!

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